From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun  1 10:17:01 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 10:17:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update
In-Reply-To: <4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>

Chuck, we still have you & Rhonda in our thoughts . . . It sure is good
to hear the 2nd surgery did the trick Sat., and I especially am happy
to hear she can come out of sedation today ~  ALL the best to you,
and let us know if you need help with anything while Rhonda needs
your extra care & attention.

Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "chuck" <chuck at grovenet.net>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 5:15 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update

> Thank you all for your well wishes, thoughts, and prayers. 
> 
> My wife, Rhonda,  underwent a 12+ hr surgery last Thursday for a removal 
> of a Meningioma, a benign brain tumor.  The operation was successful and 
> the team of docs were able to remove it all.  However, there was some 
> significant swelling of the brain tissue afterwards, which is expected.  
> But by Saturday, she was still not coming out of her sedation fully.  
> With the insertion of a newer high-tech monitor, and multiple CT scans, 
> the docs were able to tell that there was still something wrong.  They 
> went back in for a 2nd surgery Saturday afternoon and found a 
> significant blood clot that they were successfully able to remove.  
> Afterwards, all her numbers came right down to where they should of been 
> to begin with.  Sunday, and today, she has been sleeping peacefully, 
> resting, and healing. 
> 
> Tomorrow she comes back out of sedation again, and hopefully they can 
> also remove the aspirator. 
> 
> It's been a long, hard, week - both physically and emotionally - and I 
> know we're not done yet -  But right now we are looking good!  Both Docs 
> are 'encouraged'.  Which is a 'very' good thing. 
> 
> Thanks again for all those prayers - keep 'em coming please :)
> 
> chuck underwood
> formerly of Woodchuck Computers
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Jun  1 13:39:24 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 13:39:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] More swill from bob . . . .
Message-ID: <4C056FFC.7080004@jurislex.com>

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun  1 14:14:43 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:14:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] More swill from bob . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C056FFC.7080004@jurislex.com>
References: <4C056FFC.7080004@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <5000683900A448D7B7F5DABFE59D8F59@GeriPC>

Ha!   ; )   Thanks for the 'swill,' Bob.


 Geri



From: Bob Browning 
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:39 PM
To: Grovenet 
Subject: [Grovenet] More swill from bob . . . .








A man was driving down the road and ran out of gas. Just at that moment, a bee flew in his window.
The bee said, 'What seems to be the problem?'
'I'm out of gas,' the man replied.

The bee told the man to wait right there and flew away. Minutes later, the man watched as an entire swarm of bees flew to his car and into his gas tank. After a few minutes, the bees flew out.

'Try it now,' said one bee.

The man turned the ignition key and the car started right up. 'Wow!' the man exclaimed, 'what did you put in my gas tank'?

The bee answered, 


 
Wait for it.wait for it.. 


You're just gonna love this..

 

 

 

 

 







 

I see you smiling 

(and they need all the good press they can have!)

 

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

 
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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  1 15:52:26 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:52:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] More swill from bob . . . .
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Tue,
	1 Jun 2010 14:14:43 -0700
Message-ID: <25315-4C058F2A-3076@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Geri ... please don't encourage the ole goat!

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  1 16:04:12 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:04:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Todays_Hosstyle_3=A2_worth?=
Message-ID: <25318-4C0591EC-1680@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

"Ponder This"

http://tinyurl.com/25os8e7

~A~ Todays 3? worth, and I'm sticking to it!




From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  1 16:04:40 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:04:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Todays_Hosstyle_3=A2_worth?=
Message-ID: <25320-4C059208-830@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

"Ponder This"

http://tinyurl.com/25os8e7

~A~ Todays 3? worth, and I'm sticking to it!




From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun  1 16:10:11 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:10:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Todays_Hosstyle_3=A2_worth?=
In-Reply-To: <25320-4C059208-830@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <25320-4C059208-830@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <8AF80FC3-E308-4537-A75C-E6B70D2CFDC3@verizon.net>

I like #17. Every day I beat my previous record for number of  
consecutive days I've been alive.
; )

Katie
PS And Geri and I can encourage both you and Bob for the  
entertainment...


On Jun 1, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> "Ponder This"
>
> http://tinyurl.com/25os8e7
>
> ~A~ Todays 3? worth, and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  1 16:49:06 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:49:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Todays_Hosstyle_3=A2_worth?=
In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt <allnutt@verizon.net>'s message of Tue,
	01 Jun	2010 16:10:11 -0700
Message-ID: <27192-4C059C72-1608@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Katie wrote
PS And Geri and I can encourage both you and Bob for the entertainment.

==============..
Katie .. one Bob has to worry about is reputation to maintain, however I
don't have to worry about it any more .

~A~ that is my tale, and I'm sticking to it!



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun  1 16:50:45 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:50:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Todays_Hosstyle_3=A2_worth?=
In-Reply-To: <8AF80FC3-E308-4537-A75C-E6B70D2CFDC3@verizon.net>
References: <25320-4C059208-830@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<8AF80FC3-E308-4537-A75C-E6B70D2CFDC3@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <862B73CBB4A64F58B723CAD34E1B9CA1@GeriPC>

Like that one, too, Katie, and I thought #27 was really cute.
You are right about encouraging entertainment. :-)

Alan, I guess because you call yourself an "Ole Hoss,"
that it's okay to call Bob an "ole goat?"  I'll just stick to
calling you guys Alan & Bob!  ;-)


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 4:10 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Todays Hosstyle 3? worth

> I like #17. Every day I beat my previous record for number of
> consecutive days I've been alive.
> ; )
>
> Katie
> PS And Geri and I can encourage both you and Bob for the
> entertainment...
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2010, at 4:04 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote:
>
>> "Ponder This"
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/25os8e7
>>
>> ~A~ Todays 3? worth, and I'm sticking to it!
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun  1 16:56:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:56:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Pennsylvania Misdemeanor?
Message-ID: <00f201cb01e6$1e80e260$5b82a720$@com>

A Pennsylvania Misdemeanor?

http://factcheck.org/2010/06/sunday-replay-6/

 

June 1, 2010

 

Appearing on "Fox News <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,593724,00.html>
Sunday," Republican Rep. Darrell Issa of California said flatly that
somebody committed a crime when the White House sent President Bill Clinton
to ask Rep. Joe Sestak if he would not run against Sen. Arlen Specter in the
Pennsylvania Democratic primary. This time Issa did not repeat earlier
claims of "bribery." Instead, he pared down his list of possible legal
violations to a single section of the federal criminal code.

Rep. Issa: If he had offered a job in order to get out of the race, it would
have been a crime, a  crime under a law signed, of all things, by President
Clinton during his administration, the last update. If you offer a job or a
position, 18 USC 600 clearly says that is a crime.

It's true that the section mentioned by Issa makes it a crime to promise
employment as a "reward for any political activity or for the support of or
opposition to any candidate" in a federal election, including a primary race
such as the one in which Sestak ultimately defeated Specter.

But there's more to it than that. Here's the full language of the
<http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/29/600>  statute, with a crucial
section highlighted:

18 USC 600

Whoever, directly or indirectly, promises any employment, position,
compensation, contract, appointment, or other benefit, provided for or made
possible in whole or in part by any Act of Congress, or any special
consideration in obtaining any such benefit, to any person as consideration,
favor, or reward for any political activity or for the support of or
opposition to any candidate or any political party in connection with any
general or special election to any political office, or in connection with
any primary election or political convention or caucus held to select
candidates for any political office, shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than one year, or both.

The criminal code classifies violation of section 600 (and anything else
punishable by a year in prison or less) as a Class A misdemeanor
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/3559.html> . That's less serious than
a felony such as outright bribery
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000201----000-
.html> , which can be punished by up to 15 years in prison.

Even so, former Attorney General Michael Mukasey says that section 600 was
not violated, unless it can be shown that the White House offered Sestak
something more than the unpaid advisory position it admits to discussing.

Appearing on Fox News on Friday, May 28, Mukasey was asked specifically
whether Section 600 would be violated by the actions the White House and
Sestak describe. His answer:

Former A.G. Mukasey: It has to be a position that was created by Congress,
or was somehow partially created by an act of Congress. If not, then it
doesn't violate the statute. . If it's something that was created only by
executive order or by the executive entirely, then it's not a violation.

And according to the accounts given by White House Counsel Robert Bauer, the
White House sent President Clinton to ask Sestak whether he would serve on
"a
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/memorandum-white-house-counsel-r
egarding-review-discussions-relating-congressman-se>  Presidential or other
Senior Executive Branch Advisory Board," without pay. Sestak said Clinton
asked if he would serve on "a
<http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/28/raw-data-sestaks-statement-white
-house-report-job-offer/>  presidential board."

Mukasey said it would "substantially" change things if it turned out that
Sestak had been offered some other job, such as secretary of the Navy. "The
position of secretary of the Navy is a position that exists by virtue of an
act of Congress."

But White House Counsel Bauer says rumors to that effect are "false,"
adding: "At no time was Congressman Sestak offered, nor did he seek, the
position of Secretary of the Navy."

We can't independently confirm that it was merely an unpaid presidential
advisory position that Clinton dangled before Sestak. But by the same token,
Rep. Issa has no evidence that it wasn't.

 


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun  1 16:56:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:56:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Snap Judgments
Message-ID: <010001cb01e6$1fe135b0$5fa3a110$@com>

I heard an interesting interview on NPR's shows "On the Media" the other day
that I thought others here might enjoy.

How do photographs color our perceptions about the subject of the
photograph?  Are we helpless in casting an unearned positive or negative
judgment of the subject of the photo simply from the way the subject was
photographed?  What obligations do the photographer have when photographing
a subject?  Do they owe anything to the subject in taking photos that
reflect the subject in more of a positive light, to somehow "tell the truth"
in the photo, or is being photographed and the end result just part of the
risk?

Jeff

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Snap Judgments
http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2010/05/28/07

May 28, 2010 by Bob Garfield

What are the rules that govern journalistic portrait photography? Wide-angle
lenses, nonstandard lighting, shooting from below - they're all fair game
and frequently employed by photogs working for major publications. But what
obligation is there to the subject? Bob searches for answers in this story
originally broadcast in 2008.

In November of that year, we ran a piece about the murky ethical territory
of magazine portraiture, Photoshopped or not. Written profiles of
politicians, athletes and others are often accompanied by a single photo
from a top name photographer, creating opportunities for impact and mischief
that we'll revisit now.

Jill Greenberg is most famous for a series of pictures of toddlers crying
their eyes out. She achieved these hilarious and heartbreaking Kodak moments
by giving the kids lollipops, then grabbing the treats away. All right,
maybe it's a little bit on the cruel side. 

On the other hand, the kids get over it in about a minute, and the pictures
are fabulous. So suck on that one a while.

Meantime, know that Greenberg photographs grownups too, famous ones, on
assignment for such publications as Wired, Entertainment Weekly, TV Guide
and all three major news magazines. In September, 2008 she was asked by The
Atlantic to do a cover portrait of John McCain. 

Now, it happens that Greenberg despises McCain, so after capturing the
heroic poses Atlantic editors were seeking, she coaxed the then presidential
candidate towards a separate lighting setup where she posed him above a
strobe. This gave her the shot she was looking for, one she posted on her
website. It was a diabolical McCain awash in ghastly facial shadows. 

Later, Greenberg bragged to The New York Post about how easy it had been to
trick him, like taking candy from a baby, you might say. Yet, she doesn't
know why her Atlantic editors and many others flipped out.

JILL GREENBERG: I do the job that's asked of me that day, and what I do
beyond that is not really anyone's business. You know, especially when this
election was so crucial to me and my family, I just felt, you know, maybe
coloring outside the lines this one time wouldn't be such a big deal.

BOB GARFIELD: Assuming she can locate any line, in the first place. The
McCain episode was merely the latest to raise ethics questions in portrait
photography, chief among them being, are there any? 

Where is the distinction between artistic prerogative and photo "gotcha"? If
a picture is worth a thousand words, who protects the subject and the
audience from a thousand words manipulated or taken out of context?

The answers reside in the murk of art, journalistic comment, reader
expectations and even basic human vanity. But the topic here is potentially
corrupting influences, so let's begin with the most obvious, the profit
motive. The cover of a magazine is the single biggest determinant of sales.

MARYANNE GOLON: It's very much an advertisement for the publication.

BOB GARFIELD: MaryAnne Golon is former director of photography for Time
Magazine.

MARYANNE GOLON: Once you're choosing an image, you want the image to be
arresting. You want it to stand out in all the media noise on a newsstand.

BOB GARFIELD: That quick newsstand scan is critical, hence, the demand for
such distinctive portraitists as Greenberg, Platon, Martin Schoeller, Annie
Leibovitz and the late Richard Avedon.

MARTIN SCHOELLER: I think there has been a long tradition in portrait
photography where photographers try to capture a person's personality rather
than feeling obliged in trying to make them look good.

BOB GARFIELD: Photographer Martin Schoeller:

MARTIN SCHOELLER: The best example, I think, is Richard Avedon. I mean, you
feel like he would take your picture and you would come across as mentally
challenged. I don't think Avedon ever tried to please anyone but himself
with his portraits.

BOB GARFIELD: Nor Schoeller himself. His ultratight portraits, which have
appeared in such publications as Rolling Stone and The New Yorker, are
typically grim mug shots, sort of Chuck Close meets your driver's license
photo. His Jack Nicholson could be a serial rapist and his Barack Obama
resembles Abraham Lincoln, homely wart and all.

The shots are arty and arresting but not exactly flattering, although
Schoeller takes issue with that characterization.

MARTIN SCHOELLER: I don't think my pictures are unflattering, to be honest.
The light is very flattering. It's not a wide angle lens; they're not
distorted. I just think that your perception of the environment is so
twisted by all these pictures that you see in magazines and advertisements
that if you see a person just for who they are, you are really shocked.

BOB GARFIELD: Are we, indeed, so conditioned to the unreal world of ads and
celebrity photography that we, the audience, can't handle the truth?
Certainly, magazine photography, at least where movie stars aren't involved,
is not hagiography. It is not commissioned to flatter the subject. 

But whether you're JFK sitting for Karsh of Ottawa or the family next door
posing in sweaters at Olan Mills, no one wants to look mentally challenged
or criminal or demonic or even unattractive.

So do portraitists and editors have any responsibility to their subjects'
basic vanity? Reporters certainly don't. If the reporting doesn't distort
facts or context, nobody has a beef. Why should photography be held to a
different standard?

PLATON: All I can do is to try and find a human quality -

BOB GARFIELD: This is the photographer, Platon.

PLATON: - and break through all of these plastic walls that are put up in
front of me and my sitter, and all the pressure that they try to bombard me
with to stop me finding perhaps my sense of what the truth is.

BOB GARFIELD: Platon shot the famous Esquire photo of Bill Clinton,
cat-who-ate-the-canary grin on his face, hands on his knees and necktie,
like the arrow of Eros, pointing to his notorious crotch. Platon has also
famously crafted portraits of a menacing Barry Bonds, Karl Rove cowled in a
sinister black aura, and a sepulchral Vladimir Putin.

Platon believes it is loathsome to use digital or darkroom tricks to distort
somebody's likeness but he's cool with whatever actually happens at the
shoot, such as his April, 2005 Ann Coulter photo on the cover of Time
Magazine. The incendiary right wing author was shot from almost floor level
with a wide angle lens, filling the foreground with her optically elongated
legs. I can tell you, this is the one and only time I personally felt
sympathy for Ann Coulter. She looked like a blonde praying mantis. Platon:

PLATON: She's very tall, very, very slim, very skinny and she's got these
massive long legs. I mean, sure, there is a distortion perhaps of
perspective, but this is really how I see her. I was probably a few inches
away from her toes when I was taking the picture, so for her to be slightly
smiling at me and leaning forward, she knows what's going on.

BOB GARFIELD: But did she know the effect of the wide lens?

PLATON: Well, I mean, look, everybody now in the business [LAUGHS] seems to
know the way I see the world. I want to pull people out of their reality and
into our reality.

BOB GARFIELD: Out of her reality, how he sees her, what his truth is. Is
that a confession or a mission statement? Time's MaryAnne Golon was on the
set that day, and she thinks the latter.

MARYANNE GOLON: I mean, if someone is a public figure and you subject them
to any sort of representation - it could be a political cartoon, it could be
an artist illustration, it could be a photographer - there's going to be an
interpretation of that person.

BOB GARFIELD: And for the very reason that people are vain and
self-conscious, trying to define their own interpretation of themselves for
the lens, they sometimes need to be nudged or prodded or even manipulated
into revealing something of themselves, such as when Yousuf Karsh pulled the
cigar from Winston Churchill's mouth - like candy from a baby - and
triggered portraiture's most famous scowl.

In photography, this reality thing is hard to pin down. Each of a sitting's
dozens or hundreds of shots is a frozen two-dimensional representation of a
living, moving, three-dimensional being, a laser-sliced instant invisible in
real time. It may be a reasonable likeness, it may express some aspect of
mood or personality but it is, by definition, out of context. Platon:

PLATON: You could say that I'm a disturber or I'm a professional outsider,
and I come in and try to disturb the status quo.

BOB GARFIELD: In purely artistic terms, such sentiments are unassailable but
if a magazine writer marched into a profile interview with the announced
intention of cajoling from a subject a single word or phrase that would be
the sole focus of the profile, well, that's pretty much the definition of
"gotcha" journalism. Is creating a disturbance ever a reasonable
journalistic technique?

PLATON: To be quite honest, I'm often surprised that I'm allowed to carry on
doing what I do every day. But I haven't been stopped yet, and I'm still
waiting to be sent out of the country for bad photographic behavior.

BOB GARFIELD: Not likely. Platon is prized by editors for the same reason he
is shocking to readers. He plays havoc with our expectations, expectations
so obsessively reinforced by Hollywood and Madison Avenue that we've all
been, in Platon's words, "sedated with perfection."

You may recall Schoeller saying much the same. In magazine photography
circles, this is a steady refrain. Here's Maer Roshan, founder and
editor-in-chief of the now defunct Radar Magazine.

MAER ROSHAN: You look at any Hollywood celebrity, half of your time is spent
wrangling over what they will wear. Some of them demand final photo
approval. They demand certain photographers. Hollywood celebrities have a
lot of power over how they're depicted in magazine covers.

BOB GARFIELD: The New York Times once described, for instance, Angelina
Jolie's demands, not only for photo approval from People Magazine but also
promises about reportage in exchange for baby pictures.

For self-respecting photographers and editors, that stuff is frustrating and
humiliating. And one after another, they describe the impulse to assert
independence. It comes up [LAUGHS] so often, you have to wonder, when a
subject without the leverage to call the shots gets stung, is that entirely
independence, or also backlash?

Consider Radar's September, 2008 cover piece titled What's So Scary About
Michelle Obama? Plucked to illustrate it, from the rolls and rolls, and
rolls of shots of a smiling future First Lady, was one moment when she
stared blankly at the camera, her arms folded across her chest, the angry
black woman, herself.

Now, the story was precisely about confronting that stereotype, so the cover
photo could be justified on pertinence alone. But Obama felt hoodwinked, a
fate Angelina Jolie need not fear. Is that fair? Well, maybe it is. One
argument goes that a photo subject, by agreeing to the shoot, assumes all
risks. Jill Greenberg:

JILL GREENBERG: When somebody signs up for a cover photo shoot, they're
doing it for their own best interest, they're doing it for their own PR And,
you know, you have to be careful. You don't know what the story's going to
be. I mean -

BOB GARFIELD: Caveat emptor.

JILL GREENBERG: Exactly, it's a gamble.

BOB GARFIELD: Wow, media roulette. You pays your money and you takes your
chances. Moreover, Greenberg says, the wheel is sometimes rigged.

JILL GREENBERG: I've been assigned by magazine editors to make people look
bad. You know, I've been assigned to trick my subject by magazine editors.
It's just really strange. I mean, people just don't actually know the way
things are.

BOB GARFIELD: Greenberg declined to provide details or to name names, so
let's just hope premeditated photo hatchet jobs are rare. But if they
aren't, how could we be surprised? When it comes to ethics or canons of
conduct, the lines are maddeningly out of focus.

JILL GREENBERG: I went to art school, so I don't know what those canons and
ethics are.

BOB GARFIELD: Nor is she, by any means, alone. I asked Martin Schoeller:

BOB GARFIELD: Is there a standard of basic fairness, for example?

MARTIN SCHOELLER: I think this varies greatly from photographer to
photographer. Yeah - no, I guess no [LAUGHS] is the answer.

BOB GARFIELD: No. Schoeller hasn't gotten the memo, Greenberg hasn't gotten
the memo because the memo has yet to be written. High time, I'd say, not
because these issues are black and white but because they obviously aren't.


From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  1 21:17:59 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:17:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Snap Judgments
In-Reply-To: <010001cb01e6$1fe135b0$5fa3a110$@com>
References: <010001cb01e6$1fe135b0$5fa3a110$@com>
Message-ID: <2D513865-6476-4079-AC7C-0032F775DD3C@verizon.net>

Some of the examples are visible at:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/emradarem-asks-whats-so-s_n_118738.html

http://205.188.238.109/time/covers/0,16641,20050425,00.html

http://www.canto-photographer.com/wordpress/barack-obama-martin-schoeller/

The Greenberg photos of McCain were less subtle political propoganda characteratures.

BTW, there is a news story of a sink hole in Guatamala that ate a building.  The best photo really screams "Photoshop!"

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/06/photogalleries/100601-sinkhole-in-guatemala-2010-pictures-world/#guatemala-city-sinkhole-2010-aerial-close_21124_600x450.jpg

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/06/photogalleries/100601-sinkhole-in-guatemala-2010-pictures-world/#guatemala-city-sinkhole-2007-file-photo_21123_600x450.jpg

While there are some very deep sink hole, that one - if it is real - would scare the daylights out of me.  The picture is shows something several hundred feet deep with vertical sides.

David



On Jun 1, 2010, at 4:56 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> ... How do photographs color our perceptions about the subject of the photograph?  ...
> 
> Jeff



From edavie at verizon.net  Tue Jun  1 21:47:19 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:47:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory
Message-ID: <73A5749CA9CA4EFF859E2FA375559DFF@EdDaviePC>

You might be interested in this.
Ed



 


      -------Original Message-------


      Subject: Copier Memory





       
                               

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pIFUOav2xE 

                               
                             
                       
                 

             
           

       

     
            
     

From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  1 23:02:12 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 23:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory
In-Reply-To: <73A5749CA9CA4EFF859E2FA375559DFF@EdDaviePC>
References: <73A5749CA9CA4EFF859E2FA375559DFF@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <D7F388E4-6DDF-42D0-8E59-A80377054C71@verizon.net>

Oh brother!


On Jun 1, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Ed Davie wrote:

> You might be interested in this.
> Ed


From hannah at teleport.com  Wed Jun  2 06:31:12 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:31:12 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory
In-Reply-To: <73A5749CA9CA4EFF859E2FA375559DFF@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <C82BC750.16A41%hannah@teleport.com>

Thanks Ed...This is important knowledge!  Kristy


On 6/1/10 11:47 PM, "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net> wrote:

> You might be interested in this.
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>       -------Original Message-------
> 
> 
>       Subject: Copier Memory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>        
>                  
> 
>                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pIFUOav2xE
> 
>                  
>                  
>                  
>                  
> 
>              
>            
> 
>        
> 
>      
>             
>      
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Wed Jun  2 08:02:58 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:02:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Viking House story on NPR
Message-ID: <FDA44C9971404CC28F317C794941BCAB@JeffVAIO>

Yesterday morning NPR/OPB had a story about the Forest Grove Viking House - how cool!

I've been searching for the link and today a friend said the link was posted on the High School's Facebook page.  I'm including it here for those who might be interested.  
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127302888

I believe the house will be open this Friday and Saturday so you can check it out.  

Marian

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Jun  2 08:41:50 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 08:41:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>
	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
Message-ID: <4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>

Roosevelt received a letter from Hoover days before the inauguration 
asking him to help calm people since banks were closing at an alarming 
rate.  He held the letter for days not bothering to respond to Hoover.  
This caused hundreds if not thousands of additional banks to close.  
Helping an outgoing president had been done before by Cleveland in 1893 
where the banks were in a similar situation and he came forward to help 
Harrison.  I also remember reading about a big banking scandal when 
Roosevelt was governor of New York during the early 30's.

Either Roosevelt didn't understand what was happening or he wanted it to 
get worse before he took office.  I'll leave that up to you.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Don,
>
>   
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> How many banks failed? Was it 5,000 the figure?
>>     
>
> That's the number I'm finding.
>
> "more than 5,000 banks failed by March 1933, wiping out
>  the savings of millions of people"
>
> http://www.webcitation.org/5kwqEE3UC
> scroll down to the section labeled
> "III Economic Collapse (1929-1933)"
>
>   
>> Then was it 2% 0r 3% of the banks that failed.
>>     
>
> That's an absurd deduction.  You're suggesting there was in excess of
> 160,000 banks in the US?
>
> In reality, nearly 40% of the banks failed.
>
> "The failure rate increased sharply in the 1920s and again
>  between 1929 and 1933, when nearly 40 percent of U.S.
>  banks failed."
>
> http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/BankRuns.html
>
>   
>> [...] What about the over 90% of the banks that did
>> not fail? [...]
>>     
>
> You mean, what about the over 60% of the banks that did not fail?
>
>   
>> And how did the rich bankers get richer during the
>> depression?
>>
>> Beats me.
>>     
>
> The bankers, those that survived, got richer by dooping the public with the
> sweet, sweet candy called "credit".
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 10:10:15 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:10:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18140021.4060671275498615260.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

What can mother nature dish out that people fear most, what events kill the most people?

Is it earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tornadoes, hurricanes, rfloods, mud slides, cold weather, hot weather?

Which would you guess kills the most people in a single event (not averaged over time)?

"Fatal Heat: Your average heat wave, this was not. In 2003, record-breaking temperatures took the lives of 35,000 people across eight countries in Europe. France bore the brunt of the losses with 14,802 dead. According to a report on the climate phenomenon by the Earth Policy Institute, "Though heat waves rarely are given adequate attention, they claim more lives each year than floods, tornadoes, and hurricanes combined." (Photo credit: iStockphoto.com)"

This answer surprised me because I guessed earthquakes.

don

PS: Are we getting an extraordinary rain here this year, or am I imagining it is? My garden is having a difficult time sprouting and as soon as a seed breaks through, something eats it. I thought is was slugs, but bait killed them off, and all I see now are Sow Bugs. Do they eat vegitation, and is there a bait for them. They don't seem to pay attention to slug bait.

d


From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  2 10:18:42 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:18:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun  2 10:48:22 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:48:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory
In-Reply-To: David Morelli <jo.david@verizon.net>'s message of Tue,
	01 Jun	2010 23:02:12 -0700
Message-ID: <4258-4C069966-14341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Oh-Brother, and phooey too!

~A~ that is my story and I'm stickin' to it!



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 10:52:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:52:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <1134915586.4081331275501124336.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Gunshy Bob?

I hope not. I hope I have pointed to facts and fallacies that, in accordance with your tagline,everyone can look it up yourselves.

I enjoyed the following document, but I was too young to evaluate interactions between Hoover and Roosevelt.

My folks referred to Roosevelt as "The Old Goat", but when I heard him announce that the Empire of Japan made a dasterdly attack on Pearl Harbor, and act of war (summarized) I felt a rush of national pride and my juvanile support wished him well until he passed away. I never knew why my parents hated him so much. I agreed with his campaign question, "Why change horses in mid stream"
and though too young to vote, I agreed with him.

Look it up yourself to separate truth from falsehood:

http://pdf.patriotpost.us.s3.amazonaws.com/2010-06-02-chronicle.pdf

Also news today from Germany:

"Japanese prime minister quits

Yukio Hatoyama had come to power after his Democratic Party of Japan's
spectacular landslide victory last year but his time in office was marred
by corruption scandals and broken promises.

The DW-WORLD Article
http://newsletter.dw-world.de/re?l=ew522yIfqw0w4I0 "

It seems that Japan and America has at least one mutual problem, an untrustworthy leader. Even seasoned news reporters by the dozens in America agree. We the people must protect ourselves with information, the knowledge of what is really going on behind the scenes.

don



 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:18:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fear


<html>
<head>
  
  <title></title>
</head>
<body>
<font size="+1">Thanks for the insight Adam, but I shouldn&#39;t have had
to spend the time finding the attribution for your assertion ! ! Also,
the final part of your post imputes wrong-doing to Roosevelt. On what
do you base that? Or are you just a Foxian conspiracy nut who always
imputes wrong intent to anyone who is not an R??<br>
LOL<br>
<br>
But, then again, maybe DonK has made me gun shy!!<br>
<br>
bob &quot;look it up yourself&quot; browning<br>
<br>
</font><font><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><i><b>PS to all:</b>&nbsp;&nbsp; B</i></font></font></font><font><font size="+1"><i><font size="+1">efore hitting &quot;Reply&quot; or
&quot;Reply All&quot;</font><font size="+1">, p</font></i></font></font><font><font size="+1"><font size="+1"><i>lease
help reduce the listserv&#39;s
needed bandwidth </i></font><i><font size="+1">by
taking a few moments and deleting all or part of the most recent
message (keeping all or part
of the most recent posting as needed to give context to your response),
and except possibly for one or
two of the
preceding messages, but only if needed to further provide context to
the message
to
which you
are replying. More importantly, in order to avoid unintended
unsubscribes, please also delete the listserv subscription and
unsubscription information footers.
Thank you!!&nbsp; b</font></i></font></font><br>
<font size="+1">++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<br>
<br>
&gt;From Newsweek - <br>
<br>
<small><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.newsweek.com/2008/11/04/handover-horror-stories.html" target="_blank">http://www.newsweek.com/2008/11/04/handover-horror-stories.html</a><br>
</small><br>
</font><b><big>Handover Horror Stories</big></b><small><small>
<h2 class="subhead">Winning is half the
battle. A history of bumpy transitions.</h2>
</small></small><span class="by quiet">by </span><a class="author" rel="foaf:publications" href="http://www.newsweek.com/authors/dan-brillman.html" target="_blank">Dan Brillman</a><br>
<div class="byline">
<div class=""><br>
November 05, 2008
</div>
</div>
<br>
<strong>1932-33</strong> <br>
<p>For the first 150 years of the presidency, the transition took place
between November and the Inauguration in early March, primarily to
account for slow travel time. But as communication and transportation
improved, Inauguration Day stayed the same, leaving a lame-duck
administration especially lame for four months.</p>
<p>In &#39;32 Herbert Hoover was the lame duck, and for months Franklin
Roosevelt distanced himself from all things Hoover&mdash;at the time an
expedient maneuver, but one that may well have cost the country. Hoover
had set in motion government plans to reverse the economic crisis,
hoping the appearance of solidarity between the actual and incoming
administrations would be a financial tonic. But he was already seen as
politically toxic, and Roosevelt had won by steering clear of him. The
Democrat rejected Hoover&#39;s plea to address the European end of the
crisis, calling the war-debt issue the Republican&#39;s &quot;baby.&quot; In January
and February 1933, banks were failing en masse and Roosevelt-Hoover
meetings were fruitless standoffs&mdash;described by historian Herbert Feis
as a &quot;naval engagement on a foggy night between two opposed fleets &hellip;
the proponents were shooting at shadows and hitting air.&quot; So who gets
the blame for the depression? Historians have quarreled over the
question, but Hoover has borne most of the blame. The economic inertia
during the long, contentious winter of 1932-33 did not help.
Ironically, the 20th Amendment shortening the transition time to 11
weeks was ratified in late January, but didn&#39;t go into practical effect
until 1937.<br>
</p>
<p>*********************************************************<br>
</p>
On 6/2/2010 8:41 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4C067BBE.5070205 at gmail.com">
  <pre>Roosevelt received a letter from Hoover days before the inauguration 
asking him to help calm people since banks were closing at an alarming 
rate.  He held the letter for days not bothering to respond to Hoover.  
This caused hundreds if not thousands of additional banks to close.  
Helping an outgoing president had been done before by Cleveland in 1893 
where the banks were in a similar situation and he came forward to help 
Harrison.  I also remember reading about a big banking scandal when 
Roosevelt was governor of New York during the early 30&#39;s.

Either Roosevelt didn&#39;t understand what was happening or he wanted it to 
get worse before he took office.  I&#39;ll leave that up to you.

Adam
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>




From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun  2 11:00:08 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:00:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <4265-4C069C28-1471@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Hi :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/smilehi.html 

 by the bye ... Mr Ed .. all of my roses are finally starting to
bud-out.

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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 11:05:56 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:05:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
Message-ID: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>


I'm no longer satisfied with merely debunking spurious claims (anywhere I
read or hear them, not just here).  So, in an effort to understand the
psychology of fear, conspiracy, superstition, etc., I've started doing some
looking around online for more information.  I happened upon this article.


Additionally, National Geographic will be airing a program this Sunday, June
6, at 10am, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy, which will examine the alleged
conspiracies and available evidence.


Jeff


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


American Conspiracy X
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/9-11-science-and-conspiracy-40
67/article-1
By Patrick J. Kiger


Conspiracy Now!


Recently, Delaware Republican Congressman Mike Castle was leading a town
meeting on health care reform, when he was confronted by an impassioned
woman waving a small American flag with one hand and with the other,
clutching a plastic bag containing what she said was her own birth
certificate. In a moment captured in a YouTube video, she insisted on
switching to a different topic: her belief that Castle and other members of
Congress were complicit in a conspiracy to conceal that President Barack
Obama actually is ineligible to serve in the nation's highest office. "I
want to know why are you people ignoring his birth certificate," she
screeched. "He is not an American citizen. He is a citizen of Kenya... I
don't want this flag to change. I want my country back!"

"If you're referring to the President there, he's a citizen of the United
States," the Congressman, his voice quavering with obvious discomfort, tried
to reassure the audience. But the response-a cacophony of hoots and
catcalls-suggested that many of them also were confirmed "Birthers," as
believers that Obama is secretly a non-citizen are called. It is a notion
that was long ago conclusively disproven; state officials in Hawaii have
verified that Obama's 1961 birth certificate is genuine, and investigators
from Factcheck.org, a web site published by the University of Pennsylvania's
non-partisan Annenberg Public Policy Center, examined the actual document
and posted high-resolution images of it to show that it had an authentic
seal and signature. None of that seems to have convinced the 11 percent of
Americans who subscribe to the theory, according to a recent poll. In calls
to radio talk shows, postings on myriad web sites and interviews with
reporters, Birthers weave increasingly convoluted tales of a conspiracy
involving forged documents and 39 bogus Social Security numbers to which
Obama allegedly is linked. "The biggest political cover up in American
history is taking place right before our eyes," breathlessly proclaims one
Birther blog. But it gets worse. That alleged cover-up may only be in
furtherance of an even darker alleged conspiracy-an Obama plan to create a
new civilian national security force that the foreign usurper would use to
crush dissent.

But Birthers are only the latest group to engage in what has become a
time-honored American tradition: the espousing of conspiracy theories.
Virtually since the inception of the republic, its citizens have eagerly
envisioned dark cabals and cover-ups of heinous crimes by powerful figures
both inside and outside the government, at various times in league with
secret organizations, foreign governments, religious and ethnic groups with
nefarious hidden agendas, and perhaps even space aliens. But in recent
years-particularly since the advent of the Internet, which has made it easy
for virtually anyone with a suspicion not only to research and publicize it,
but to recruit a cadre of like-minded individuals in distant towns and
cities-the conspiracy theory subculture has proliferated like a viral
epidemic. Conspiracy theorists have fought to write their own, alternative
versions of American history, one in which some of the most significant
events have been concealed by government duplicity, while others, such as
the 1969 Moon landing, actually were elaborate deceptions. Collectively,
their accusations form a meta-narrative in which official sources cannot be
trusted, and in which nothing ever seems to happen by chance. And while it's
tempting to dismiss conspiracy theorists as preposterous, it's hard to deny
the extent of conspiracism's influence on American popular culture, as
indicated by the sizeable genre of Hollywood conspiracy movies such as JFK,
Wag the Dog and Conspiracy Theory, TV shows such as "The X-Files" and
"Fringe," and the runaway success of Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code,
which explores a fictional conspiracy within the Roman Catholic Church.


Our History of Conspiracy Theories


Our societal attraction to conspiracy theories is evidenced by a 2007
national poll carried out by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio
University. The poll indicated that nearly two-thirds of Americans believe
that federal government officials may have chosen to ignore advance warnings
of the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, and 81 percent
believed that it was "somewhat likely" or "very likely" that oil companies
conspired to keep the price of gasoline high. Thirty-seven percent believed
that flying saucers might be real and that the government was hiding the
truth about them, while 42 percent suspected that government officials might
have had prior knowledge that President John F. Kennedy would be
assassinated in 1963.

None of this is completely new. As University of Utah historian Robert
Goldberg notes in an essay in the 2003 book, Conspiracy Theories in American
History: An Encyclopedia, Americans struggling to survive in a new land
early on saw themselves as being beset by enemies, both real and imagined.
One of the first manifestations was the Salem witch trials of the 1690s,
triggered by Massachusetts colonists' belief that members of a coven had
entered with Satan into a diabolical plot to drive out the Christian
religion from the new land. In the late 1700s, the American Revolution was
fueled in part by a belief that the British government was plotting to
systematically enslave the colonists, some of whom harbored an even darker
suspicion that King George III actually was the Antichrist predicted in the
biblical book of Revelation in part because the numerical conversions of
Greek and Hebrew translations of the phrase "royal supremacy in Great
Britain" totaled 666. 

As the nation grew, so did its suspicions. In the early 1800s, the
Freemasons, who were rumored to have murdered an ex-member to conceal their
nefarious doings, and the Roman Catholic Church, suspected of plotting to
use Irish Catholic immigrant votes to take over the U.S. government, came
under scrutiny, while by the century's end, the Populist party was fingering
Wall Street and big banks of engaging in "a vast conspiracy against
mankind." In the 1920s, industrialist Henry Ford decided that the Jews
actually were culpable, and published articles and a book accusing them of
everything from secretly backing communism to fixing baseball games. After
the attack on Pearl Harbor, some Americans found it suspicious that U.S.
aircraft carriers were safely at sea that day, and decided that President
Roosevelt had allowed the attack to happen so he would have an excuse to
enter World War II. In the 1950s, the John Birch Society and Republican Sen.
Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin, among others, proclaimed that the U.S. government
had been infiltrated by vast numbers of communist agents. Others argued that
the fluoridation of drinking water, ostensibly to prevent tooth decay,
actually was a Soviet plot to physically and/or mentally weaken the American
public, so they would be unable to resist a future communist takeover. 

American conspiracism grew even more explosively over the last half of the
20th Century. Perhaps the greatest single impetus was the 1963 assassination
of President John F. Kennedy. In their grief, many Americans found it
difficult to believe that a single, disgruntled assassin was responsible,
and the Warren Commission's release of vast amounts of physical evidence and
testimony, intended to calm suspicions, only fueled them. "The big mistake
was publishing 26 volumes of evidence, which had a lot in it that didn't
substantiate the report," Paul Hoch, publisher of the Echoes of Conspiracy
newsletter, once explained. "Anyone could shell out $80 and get all the
material and look at it." JFK assasinologists pounced upon the inevitable
inconsistencies and unexplained details, using them as raw material for
myriad theories, ranging from the second gunman scenario to speculation that
official culprit Lee Harvey Oswald was a U.S. secret agent-or a KGB
double-agent. Others posited the involvement of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro
or the Mafia.

Even a subsequent Congressional reopening of the JFK investigation in the
1970s didn't stop the public fascination with conspiracies. Partly to blame,
no doubt, were discomforting revelations of other actual, verifiable
government cabals, such as Watergate and the Central Intelligence Agency's
secret attempts to develop a mind-control drug. A decade later, the Reagan
Administration was caught selling weapons to Iran and using the profits to
fund the overthrow of the Nicaraguan government, a scandal that arguably
helped make even the craziest accusations seem not quite so implausible. By
the 1990s, America had dueling choruses of conspiracy theorists at opposite
ends of the political spectrum, with leftists accusing the CIA of having
imported and sold crack cocaine, and rightists claiming that Clinton
Administration aide Vince Foster-found dead in 1993 of what several official
investigations concluded was a self-inflicted gunshot wound-had been
murdered to cover up liberal wrongdoing. In the middle, still others warned
that both political parties were complicit in a larger plot to impose a "New
World Order" and unify the planet under a single international government.


Conspiracy and Technology


But the conspiracy theorists of past eras, who had to rely upon the
typewriter, the placard and the whisper, undoubtedly would envy the
high-tech communication methods available to contemporary groups such as the
Birthers and the 9-11 Truth movement (also known as "Truthers"), whose
loosely-aligned adherents question the official explanation of the attacks.
In 2005, a Truther named Dylan Avery and two of his friends used a laptop
computer to turn video clips from TV news programs into an 80-minute short
film called Loose Change, which questions whether the World Trade Center was
destroyed by explosive charges planted inside, rather than by hijacked
aircraft, and suggests that the U.S. government may have been involved. In
the year or so after he uploaded it to the Internet, Loose Change was viewed
more than 10 million times. "You can't believe anything someone tells you
just because they told you to," Avery explained in a Vanity Fair interview.
"Especially your government, and especially your media-the two institutions
that are put there to control you."

Indeed, the Internet makes it possible for conspiracists to reach a wider
audience than ever before, without having to go through the filter of
editors, publishers or libel lawyers. But what makes so many of us receptive
to their message? Research suggests that it may have less to do with
compelling evidence than it does with feelings of powerlessness and a
craving to make sense of confusing and troubling realities around us. A 1994
study by Rutgers University sociologist Ted Goertzel, who questioned several
hundred people about allegations ranging from flying saucer cover-ups to the
charge that the government was deliberately infecting African Americans with
HIV, discovered that minorities and young people were most likely to believe
in conspiracies, and that belief correlated with feelings that the average
person's lot in life was getting worse and that public officials were
disinterested in their plight, in addition to personal distrustfulness and
worries about losing their jobs.

Goertzel also found that subjects who accepted one conspiracy theory tended
to believe in others as well, indicating that, "belief in conspiracies is a
generalized ideological dimension." More recently, University of Texas
business school researchers Jennifer Whitson and Adam Galinsky deliberately
tried to frustrate volunteers and make them feel powerless by asking them to
perform tasks such as spotting links among a series of deliberately
dissimilar images; they found that subjects saw patterns where none actually
existed, in an effort to regain a sense of control.

Conspiracy theories may help believers cope with those feelings. But that
satisfaction may come at the cost of becoming even more marginalized; the
stridency with which Birthers express their suspicions may only make
non-believers more inclined to tune them out. After his run-in with the
angry woman with the flag and the birth certificate in a bag, for example,
Congressman Castle remained unconvinced. "I think there's strong, compelling
evidence that he's a citizen of the United States," he told the Delaware
News Journal. But he seems eager to avoid another YouTube confrontation; his
next conversation with the public will be a phone conference, featuring
constituents selected by him at random.


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 11:10:04 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:10:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
Message-ID: <003401cb027e$d3cb6c10$7b624430$@net>

How does this article prove or disprove anything? It appears to be an
editorial piece.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Howden
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:06 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
> 
> 
> I'm no longer satisfied with merely debunking spurious claims (anywhere
> I
> read or hear them, not just here).  So, in an effort to understand the
> psychology of fear, conspiracy, superstition, etc., I've started doing
> some
> looking around online for more information.  I happened upon this
> article.
> 
> 
> Additionally, National Geographic will be airing a program this Sunday,
> June
> 6, at 10am, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy, which will examine the
> alleged
> conspiracies and available evidence.
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> American Conspiracy X
> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/9-11-science-and-
> conspiracy-40
> 67/article-1
> By Patrick J. Kiger
> 
> 
> Conspiracy Now!
> 
> 
> Recently, Delaware Republican Congressman Mike Castle was leading a
> town
> meeting on health care reform, when he was confronted by an impassioned
> woman waving a small American flag with one hand and with the other,
> clutching a plastic bag containing what she said was her own birth
> certificate. In a moment captured in a YouTube video, she insisted on
> switching to a different topic: her belief that Castle and other
> members of
> Congress were complicit in a conspiracy to conceal that President
> Barack
> Obama actually is ineligible to serve in the nation's highest office.
> "I
> want to know why are you people ignoring his birth certificate," she
> screeched. "He is not an American citizen. He is a citizen of Kenya...
> I
> don't want this flag to change. I want my country back!"
> 
> "If you're referring to the President there, he's a citizen of the
> United
> States," the Congressman, his voice quavering with obvious discomfort,
> tried
> to reassure the audience. But the response-a cacophony of hoots and
> catcalls-suggested that many of them also were confirmed "Birthers," as
> believers that Obama is secretly a non-citizen are called. It is a
> notion
> that was long ago conclusively disproven; state officials in Hawaii
> have
> verified that Obama's 1961 birth certificate is genuine, and
> investigators
> from Factcheck.org, a web site published by the University of
> Pennsylvania's
> non-partisan Annenberg Public Policy Center, examined the actual
> document
> and posted high-resolution images of it to show that it had an
> authentic
> seal and signature. None of that seems to have convinced the 11 percent
> of
> Americans who subscribe to the theory, according to a recent poll. In
> calls
> to radio talk shows, postings on myriad web sites and interviews with
> reporters, Birthers weave increasingly convoluted tales of a conspiracy
> involving forged documents and 39 bogus Social Security numbers to
> which
> Obama allegedly is linked. "The biggest political cover up in American
> history is taking place right before our eyes," breathlessly proclaims
> one
> Birther blog. But it gets worse. That alleged cover-up may only be in
> furtherance of an even darker alleged conspiracy-an Obama plan to
> create a
> new civilian national security force that the foreign usurper would use
> to
> crush dissent.
> 
> But Birthers are only the latest group to engage in what has become a
> time-honored American tradition: the espousing of conspiracy theories.
> Virtually since the inception of the republic, its citizens have
> eagerly
> envisioned dark cabals and cover-ups of heinous crimes by powerful
> figures
> both inside and outside the government, at various times in league with
> secret organizations, foreign governments, religious and ethnic groups
> with
> nefarious hidden agendas, and perhaps even space aliens. But in recent
> years-particularly since the advent of the Internet, which has made it
> easy
> for virtually anyone with a suspicion not only to research and
> publicize it,
> but to recruit a cadre of like-minded individuals in distant towns and
> cities-the conspiracy theory subculture has proliferated like a viral
> epidemic. Conspiracy theorists have fought to write their own,
> alternative
> versions of American history, one in which some of the most significant
> events have been concealed by government duplicity, while others, such
> as
> the 1969 Moon landing, actually were elaborate deceptions.
> Collectively,
> their accusations form a meta-narrative in which official sources
> cannot be
> trusted, and in which nothing ever seems to happen by chance. And while
> it's
> tempting to dismiss conspiracy theorists as preposterous, it's hard to
> deny
> the extent of conspiracism's influence on American popular culture, as
> indicated by the sizeable genre of Hollywood conspiracy movies such as
> JFK,
> Wag the Dog and Conspiracy Theory, TV shows such as "The X-Files" and
> "Fringe," and the runaway success of Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci
> Code,
> which explores a fictional conspiracy within the Roman Catholic Church.
> 
> 
> Our History of Conspiracy Theories
> 
> 
> Our societal attraction to conspiracy theories is evidenced by a 2007
> national poll carried out by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio
> University. The poll indicated that nearly two-thirds of Americans
> believe
> that federal government officials may have chosen to ignore advance
> warnings
> of the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, and 81
> percent
> believed that it was "somewhat likely" or "very likely" that oil
> companies
> conspired to keep the price of gasoline high. Thirty-seven percent
> believed
> that flying saucers might be real and that the government was hiding
> the
> truth about them, while 42 percent suspected that government officials
> might
> have had prior knowledge that President John F. Kennedy would be
> assassinated in 1963.
> 
> None of this is completely new. As University of Utah historian Robert
> Goldberg notes in an essay in the 2003 book, Conspiracy Theories in
> American
> History: An Encyclopedia, Americans struggling to survive in a new land
> early on saw themselves as being beset by enemies, both real and
> imagined.
> One of the first manifestations was the Salem witch trials of the
> 1690s,
> triggered by Massachusetts colonists' belief that members of a coven
> had
> entered with Satan into a diabolical plot to drive out the Christian
> religion from the new land. In the late 1700s, the American Revolution
> was
> fueled in part by a belief that the British government was plotting to
> systematically enslave the colonists, some of whom harbored an even
> darker
> suspicion that King George III actually was the Antichrist predicted in
> the
> biblical book of Revelation in part because the numerical conversions
> of
> Greek and Hebrew translations of the phrase "royal supremacy in Great
> Britain" totaled 666.
> 
> As the nation grew, so did its suspicions. In the early 1800s, the
> Freemasons, who were rumored to have murdered an ex-member to conceal
> their
> nefarious doings, and the Roman Catholic Church, suspected of plotting
> to
> use Irish Catholic immigrant votes to take over the U.S. government,
> came
> under scrutiny, while by the century's end, the Populist party was
> fingering
> Wall Street and big banks of engaging in "a vast conspiracy against
> mankind." In the 1920s, industrialist Henry Ford decided that the Jews
> actually were culpable, and published articles and a book accusing them
> of
> everything from secretly backing communism to fixing baseball games.
> After
> the attack on Pearl Harbor, some Americans found it suspicious that
> U.S.
> aircraft carriers were safely at sea that day, and decided that
> President
> Roosevelt had allowed the attack to happen so he would have an excuse
> to
> enter World War II. In the 1950s, the John Birch Society and Republican
> Sen.
> Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin, among others, proclaimed that the U.S.
> government
> had been infiltrated by vast numbers of communist agents. Others argued
> that
> the fluoridation of drinking water, ostensibly to prevent tooth decay,
> actually was a Soviet plot to physically and/or mentally weaken the
> American
> public, so they would be unable to resist a future communist takeover.
> 
> American conspiracism grew even more explosively over the last half of
> the
> 20th Century. Perhaps the greatest single impetus was the 1963
> assassination
> of President John F. Kennedy. In their grief, many Americans found it
> difficult to believe that a single, disgruntled assassin was
> responsible,
> and the Warren Commission's release of vast amounts of physical
> evidence and
> testimony, intended to calm suspicions, only fueled them. "The big
> mistake
> was publishing 26 volumes of evidence, which had a lot in it that
> didn't
> substantiate the report," Paul Hoch, publisher of the Echoes of
> Conspiracy
> newsletter, once explained. "Anyone could shell out $80 and get all the
> material and look at it." JFK assasinologists pounced upon the
> inevitable
> inconsistencies and unexplained details, using them as raw material for
> myriad theories, ranging from the second gunman scenario to speculation
> that
> official culprit Lee Harvey Oswald was a U.S. secret agent-or a KGB
> double-agent. Others posited the involvement of Cuban dictator Fidel
> Castro
> or the Mafia.
> 
> Even a subsequent Congressional reopening of the JFK investigation in
> the
> 1970s didn't stop the public fascination with conspiracies. Partly to
> blame,
> no doubt, were discomforting revelations of other actual, verifiable
> government cabals, such as Watergate and the Central Intelligence
> Agency's
> secret attempts to develop a mind-control drug. A decade later, the
> Reagan
> Administration was caught selling weapons to Iran and using the profits
> to
> fund the overthrow of the Nicaraguan government, a scandal that
> arguably
> helped make even the craziest accusations seem not quite so
> implausible. By
> the 1990s, America had dueling choruses of conspiracy theorists at
> opposite
> ends of the political spectrum, with leftists accusing the CIA of
> having
> imported and sold crack cocaine, and rightists claiming that Clinton
> Administration aide Vince Foster-found dead in 1993 of what several
> official
> investigations concluded was a self-inflicted gunshot wound-had been
> murdered to cover up liberal wrongdoing. In the middle, still others
> warned
> that both political parties were complicit in a larger plot to impose a
> "New
> World Order" and unify the planet under a single international
> government.
> 
> 
> Conspiracy and Technology
> 
> 
> But the conspiracy theorists of past eras, who had to rely upon the
> typewriter, the placard and the whisper, undoubtedly would envy the
> high-tech communication methods available to contemporary groups such
> as the
> Birthers and the 9-11 Truth movement (also known as "Truthers"), whose
> loosely-aligned adherents question the official explanation of the
> attacks.
> In 2005, a Truther named Dylan Avery and two of his friends used a
> laptop
> computer to turn video clips from TV news programs into an 80-minute
> short
> film called Loose Change, which questions whether the World Trade
> Center was
> destroyed by explosive charges planted inside, rather than by hijacked
> aircraft, and suggests that the U.S. government may have been involved.
> In
> the year or so after he uploaded it to the Internet, Loose Change was
> viewed
> more than 10 million times. "You can't believe anything someone tells
> you
> just because they told you to," Avery explained in a Vanity Fair
> interview.
> "Especially your government, and especially your media-the two
> institutions
> that are put there to control you."
> 
> Indeed, the Internet makes it possible for conspiracists to reach a
> wider
> audience than ever before, without having to go through the filter of
> editors, publishers or libel lawyers. But what makes so many of us
> receptive
> to their message? Research suggests that it may have less to do with
> compelling evidence than it does with feelings of powerlessness and a
> craving to make sense of confusing and troubling realities around us. A
> 1994
> study by Rutgers University sociologist Ted Goertzel, who questioned
> several
> hundred people about allegations ranging from flying saucer cover-ups
> to the
> charge that the government was deliberately infecting African Americans
> with
> HIV, discovered that minorities and young people were most likely to
> believe
> in conspiracies, and that belief correlated with feelings that the
> average
> person's lot in life was getting worse and that public officials were
> disinterested in their plight, in addition to personal distrustfulness
> and
> worries about losing their jobs.
> 
> Goertzel also found that subjects who accepted one conspiracy theory
> tended
> to believe in others as well, indicating that, "belief in conspiracies
> is a
> generalized ideological dimension." More recently, University of Texas
> business school researchers Jennifer Whitson and Adam Galinsky
> deliberately
> tried to frustrate volunteers and make them feel powerless by asking
> them to
> perform tasks such as spotting links among a series of deliberately
> dissimilar images; they found that subjects saw patterns where none
> actually
> existed, in an effort to regain a sense of control.
> 
> Conspiracy theories may help believers cope with those feelings. But
> that
> satisfaction may come at the cost of becoming even more marginalized;
> the
> stridency with which Birthers express their suspicions may only make
> non-believers more inclined to tune them out. After his run-in with the
> angry woman with the flag and the birth certificate in a bag, for
> example,
> Congressman Castle remained unconvinced. "I think there's strong,
> compelling
> evidence that he's a citizen of the United States," he told the
> Delaware
> News Journal. But he seems eager to avoid another YouTube
> confrontation; his
> next conversation with the public will be a phone conference, featuring
> constituents selected by him at random.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 11:15:52 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:15:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <003401cb027e$d3cb6c10$7b624430$@net>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
	<003401cb027e$d3cb6c10$7b624430$@net>
Message-ID: <008b01cb027f$a422fe50$ec68faf0$@com>

Steven,

> From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> 
> How does this article prove or disprove anything?

Did I ever say anything about it proving or disproving anything?

> It appears to be an editorial piece.

It doesn't just appear to be, it *is* an editorial piece.

Did you have something you wanted to add to the conversation about the
psychology of conspiracy?

Jeff





From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 11:15:52 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:15:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <1134915586.4081331275501124336.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
	<1134915586.4081331275501124336.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <008e01cb027f$a60be290$f223a7b0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> I hope not. I hope I have pointed to facts and fallacies that,
> in accordance with your tagline, everyone can look it up
> yourselves.

You post things, but you don't cite your sources forcing others to do the
homework to discern which parts are fact and which parts are fallacy.
That's a disservice to members of the list and makes the arguments as a
whole suspect for if you believed them, you'd cite sources (credible ones,
not ones that have been measured and found wanting) to back up your claims.

> Look it up yourself to separate truth from falsehood:
> 
> http://pdf.patriotpost.us.s3.amazonaws.com/2010-06-02-chronicle.pdf

Too much noise to too little signal.

> It seems that Japan and America has at least one mutual
> problem, an untrustworthy leader.

Japan seems to have a problem with putting men in office that are spineless
and are quick to succumb to Palinism (resigning before the end of their
term) in order to somehow right the wrongs they did in office.  America
seems to have a problem with part of its citizenry having an inability to
see past the man (and their fantastical ideas about what he should be doing,
how fast he should be doing it, what he shouldn't be doing, etc.) or get
past the problem of complaining about changes instead of identifying the
actual problems for what they are and stepping up to the plate with possible
solutions instead of slack-jawed, iron-fisted naysaying.

No, America doesn't have a problem with an untrustworthy leader.  America
has a problem with some trying to cast a shadow of untrustworthiness on him
at every little thing, real or imagined, when the very real things that
should call his trustworthiness absolutely pale in comparison to some of the
acts of 3 of the 4 last presidents in office.

Jeff



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun  2 11:20:34 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:20:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle BS
Message-ID: <4259-4C06A0F2-11860@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

http://tinyurl.com/Hosstyle2
Don't worry, for it ain't what ya might think

~A~ that is my tall tale and I'm stickin' to it!

-------------- next part --------------
http://home.comcast.net/~singingman7777/BS.htm

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 11:26:22 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:26:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
Message-ID: <428562627.4096361275503182503.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Jeff, I have to admit that all along I have noticed you do not generally subscribe to "knee jerk" responses; You check things out.

Thank you for at least being subjective, if not always objective.

I see knee jerk responses on lots of mailing lists, one being that some news agencies are frauds and others are truthful. But are all either frauds or truthful all the time, part of the time?:

Example: Many shut down their objectivity when Newsmax is mentioned; they just think Newsmax is anti democratic and pro republican.

Is that true? Is Newsmax mostly political, or do most of their posts deal with health care, how to live healthy lives, how to learn about new procedures to cure or limit diseases? How you can help yourself to stay more healthy.

I find that Newsmax is a combination of political and healthful information, mostly the latter.

So when you see a link to Newsmax, don't assume they are bashing Obama- - -they usually bash his policies and supporters occasionally, but in every issue are information on how to stay healthy.

Example:
http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/health_stories/urine_test_prostate_cance/2010/06/02/316671.html?s=al&promo_code=9FED-1  

Have a great day all.

don

Jeff said, and I mostly agree <GRIN>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:05:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X


I'm no longer satisfied with merely debunking spurious claims (anywhere I
read or hear them, not just here).  So, in an effort to understand the
psychology of fear, conspiracy, superstition, etc., I've started doing some
looking around online for more information.  I happened upon this article.


Additionally, National Geographic will be airing a program this Sunday, June
6, at 10am, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy, which will examine the alleged
conspiracies and available evidence.


Jeff



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun  2 11:29:15 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:29:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>
	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com> <4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A46769F5-34BA-4DEA-84F3-8B50DC3FDA03@teleport.com>

Oooo-Kay... so now the oh-so-subtle suggestion is made that Roosevelt  
actually "wanted" the situation to get worse?
I had thought Obamaphobia was morbid enough, but now we are expected  
to demonize even our dead presidents?
WW
On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Roosevelt received a letter from Hoover days before the inauguration
> asking him to help calm people since banks were closing at an alarming
> rate.  He held the letter for days not bothering to respond to Hoover.
> This caused hundreds if not thousands of additional banks to close.
> Helping an outgoing president had been done before by Cleveland in  
> 1893
> where the banks were in a similar situation and he came forward to  
> help
> Harrison.  I also remember reading about a big banking scandal when
> Roosevelt was governor of New York during the early 30's.
>
> Either Roosevelt didn't understand what was happening or he wanted  
> it to
> get worse before he took office.  I'll leave that up to you.
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>>
>>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>>
>>> How many banks failed? Was it 5,000 the figure?
>>>
>>
>> That's the number I'm finding.
>>
>> "more than 5,000 banks failed by March 1933, wiping out
>>  the savings of millions of people"
>>
>> http://www.webcitation.org/5kwqEE3UC
>> scroll down to the section labeled
>> "III Economic Collapse (1929-1933)"
>>
>>
>>> Then was it 2% 0r 3% of the banks that failed.
>>>
>>
>> That's an absurd deduction.  You're suggesting there was in excess of
>> 160,000 banks in the US?
>>
>> In reality, nearly 40% of the banks failed.
>>
>> "The failure rate increased sharply in the 1920s and again
>>  between 1929 and 1933, when nearly 40 percent of U.S.
>>  banks failed."
>>
>> http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/BankRuns.html
>>
>>
>>> [...] What about the over 90% of the banks that did
>>> not fail? [...]
>>>
>>
>> You mean, what about the over 60% of the banks that did not fail?
>>
>>
>>> And how did the rich bankers get richer during the
>>> depression?
>>>
>>> Beats me.
>>>
>>
>> The bankers, those that survived, got richer by dooping the public  
>> with the
>> sweet, sweet candy called "credit".
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 11:28:35 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:28:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle BS
In-Reply-To: <4259-4C06A0F2-11860@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <599128183.4097841275503315954.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I remember those signs. I believe politics killed them.

don

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Sent: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:20:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle BS

http://tinyurl.com/Hosstyle2
Don't worry, for it ain't what ya might think

~A~ that is my tall tale and I'm stickin' to it!




From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun  2 11:36:50 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:36:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <18140021.4060671275498615260.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <18140021.4060671275498615260.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <563B3749-029D-42D4-B494-F0BF3A42CCD8@teleport.com>

I believe sowbugs eat mostly soil fungi, so they should be harmless  
to your plants. You may be having trouble with flea beetles or bean  
beetles (the latter look a lot like ladybugs, but they are yellow  
with several black spots, not orange or red). Also, small slugs are  
sometimes hard to detect. you might try the old tuna-can half full of  
stale beer, buried to soil level. This works like a charm, and the  
slugs die happy.
On Jun 2, 2010, at 10:10 AM, donkelly wrote:

> What can mother nature dish out that people fear most, what events  
> kill the most people?
>
> Is it earthquakes, volcano eruptions, tornadoes, hurricanes,  
> rfloods, mud slides, cold weather, hot weather?
>
> Which would you guess kills the most people in a single event (not  
> averaged over time)?
>
> "Fatal Heat: Your average heat wave, this was not. In 2003, record- 
> breaking temperatures took the lives of 35,000 people across eight  
> countries in Europe. France bore the brunt of the losses with  
> 14,802 dead. According to a report on the climate phenomenon by the  
> Earth Policy Institute, "Though heat waves rarely are given  
> adequate attention, they claim more lives each year than floods,  
> tornadoes, and hurricanes combined." (Photo credit: iStockphoto.com)"
>
> This answer surprised me because I guessed earthquakes.
>
> don
>
> PS: Are we getting an extraordinary rain here this year, or am I  
> imagining it is? My garden is having a difficult time sprouting and  
> as soon as a seed breaks through, something eats it. I thought is  
> was slugs, but bait killed them off, and all I see now are Sow  
> Bugs. Do they eat vegitation, and is there a bait for them. They  
> don't seem to pay attention to slug bait.
>
> d
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 11:40:11 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:40:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <008b01cb027f$a422fe50$ec68faf0$@com>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>	<003401cb027e$d3cb6c10$7b624430$@net>
	<008b01cb027f$a422fe50$ec68faf0$@com>
Message-ID: <000e01cb0283$08dc2e90$1a948bb0$@net>

How about that just about anything can be considered a conspiracy and
buzzwords can be used to describe anyone. It all means nothing. 
What is the difference between a conspiracy and the truth?
What about the 'stories' of the death camps in Germany in the 1940s? Were
those a conspiracy? 

Personally, I find the folks trying hard to debunk conspiracies to be the
strangest part of the whole story.
For instance the article you posted. Why waste the time if it isn't true?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Howden
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:16 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
> 
> Steven,
> 
> > From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> >
> > How does this article prove or disprove anything?
> 
> Did I ever say anything about it proving or disproving anything?
> 
> > It appears to be an editorial piece.
> 
> It doesn't just appear to be, it *is* an editorial piece.
> 
> Did you have something you wanted to add to the conversation about the
> psychology of conspiracy?
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 11:45:54 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:45:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <563B3749-029D-42D4-B494-F0BF3A42CCD8@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <157139593.4107331275504354182.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Thank you Walt. 

Haven't detected beetles of any discription, but note on tomato plants some branches turning yellow, even falling off, and the underside of leaves show dozens of small gray spots which smear when I rub them.

Thanks for the garden help. Thanks for the beer help. I don't keep it around, but it might be a cheap fix for slugs, provided the rain doesn't dilute the beer too much.

don


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 11:51:46 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <000e01cb0283$08dc2e90$1a948bb0$@net>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>	<003401cb027e$d3cb6c10$7b624430$@net>
	<008b01cb027f$a422fe50$ec68faf0$@com>
	<000e01cb0283$08dc2e90$1a948bb0$@net>
Message-ID: <009a01cb0284$aa745380$ff5cfa80$@com>

Steven,

> From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> 
> Personally, I find the folks trying hard to debunk
> conspiracies to be the strangest part of the whole
> story.

Even stranger than the folks that come up with the conspiracy theories to
begin with and then push them like a drug?

> Why waste the time if it isn't true?

A fine question.  Why don't we ask that of those that push the untrue
stories?

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 11:51:46 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <428562627.4096361275503182503.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
	<428562627.4096361275503182503.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <009701cb0284$a7c7f830$f757e890$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Jeff, I have to admit that all along I have noticed you
> do not generally subscribe to "knee jerk" responses;
> You check things out.
> 
> Thank you for at least being subjective, if not always
> objective.

Opinions formed out of ether are worth exactly as much as has put into forming them.

> I see knee jerk responses on lots of mailing lists,
> one being that some news agencies are frauds and others
> are truthful. But are all either frauds or truthful all
> the time, part of the time?:

I prefer to stay away from absolutes, especially to the impossibly positive.  However, I have observed that agencies have differing signal to noise ratios.  Of the ones that have proven themselves time and again to be mostly noise, I choose to not use them as a credible source.  The effort required to separate the tiny kernels of wheat from the literally tons of chaff is too great.  For others that do a better job with their signal to noise ratio, they still get checked against other sources that have shown themselves to be at least mostly trustworthy to see if the details of the story shake out between them.

> Example: Many shut down their objectivity when Newsmax
> is mentioned; they just think Newsmax is anti democratic
> and pro republican.
> 
> Is that true? Is Newsmax mostly political, or do most of
> their posts deal with health care, how to live healthy
> lives, how to learn about new procedures to cure or limit
> diseases? How you can help yourself to stay more healthy.

My issue with NewsMax has little to do with any perceived partisan political reporting and more to do with pieces that are not just opinion, but opinion laced with heavy-handed vitriol flying under a flag of "newsy-ness".  It's not just misleading, it's a lie and a slap in the face to real journalists who go to great lengths to fact-check their stories, research the facts, and get as many sides of the story as possible.

For the record, this is the same beef I have with infotainers like Limbaugh, Beck, and Jones.  They talk about things as if they're real, as if the little kernels of truth they start their pieces out with have anything to do with the fantasies they then spend the remaining 95% of their shows verbally fellating.  Blurring the line between truth and opinion is an art (a very dark one) they've perfected.  They get rich off of people's fear -- fear they stoke.  It's disgusting.

> I find that Newsmax is a combination of political and
> healthful information, mostly the latter.
> 
> So when you see a link to Newsmax, don't assume they are
> bashing Obama --- they usually bash his policies and
> supporters occasionally, but in every issue are
> information on how to stay healthy.
> 
> Example:
> http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/health_stories/urine_test_prostate_cance/2010/06/02/316671.html?s=al&promo_code=9FED-1

I don't have to read NewsMax to get this kind of stuff though.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6505ZS20100601

Is NewsMax posting articles from Reuters and the AP in order to make them seem more "newsy" and trustworthy?  Is there a distinctly different tone of the articles that are written in-house?

Jeff





From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 12:02:48 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:02:48 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
Message-ID: <1712307676-1275505371-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2036603487-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

What makes them untrue?
Some people would like more info on obama's birth. Some want more on jesus' birth. Is that a conspiracy or research?
Look at the JFK magic bullet. Lots of time went in to that one for years until someone found out the car had been modified. JFKs seat had been raised, thus a straight line shot. 
 

------Original Message------
From: Jeff Howden
Sender: grovenet-bounces
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
ReplyTo: jeff at jeffhowden.com
ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
Sent: Jun 2, 2010 11:51 AM

Steven,

> From: Steven [mailto:NoSpam03 at comcast.net]
> 
> Personally, I find the folks trying hard to debunk
> conspiracies to be the strangest part of the whole
> story.

Even stranger than the folks that come up with the conspiracy theories to
begin with and then push them like a drug?

> Why waste the time if it isn't true?

A fine question.  Why don't we ask that of those that push the untrue
stories?

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 12:12:22 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 12:12:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Viking House story on NPR
In-Reply-To: <FDA44C9971404CC28F317C794941BCAB@JeffVAIO>
References: <FDA44C9971404CC28F317C794941BCAB@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <A877C8D511FA44B8A60D1380D200F567@GeriPC>

Very cool, thanks for sharing, Marian!

Approximately 15 years ago, our daughter participated through an elective 
Art/Interior Design class at FGHS, and she & her team did the interior 
design for one of the Viking Houses <which I think of every time I pass it 
on my way home>.  ;-)  It was a lot of work, in a different way from those 
who actually build the house, and an enriching experience.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 8:02 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Viking House story on NPR

> Yesterday morning NPR/OPB had a story about the Forest Grove Viking 
> House - how cool!
>
> I've been searching for the link and today a friend said the link was 
> posted on the High School's Facebook page.  I'm including it here for 
> those who might be interested.
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127302888
>
> I believe the house will be open this Friday and Saturday so you can check 
> it out.
>
> Marian
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 12:35:58 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 12:35:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <1712307676-1275505371-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2036603487-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1712307676-1275505371-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2036603487-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <00a001cb028a$d5af9ef0$810edcd0$@com>

> Some people would like more info on obama's birth.

Those same "some people" will never be satisfied no matter how much evidence
is supplied that proves he is a natural-born US citizen; the requirements,
stories, and counter-evidence keeps shifting when it's found to be untrue.
I'm betting that it's the psychology of conspiracy that prevents them from
seeing the truth.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  2 12:57:03 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:57:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory
In-Reply-To: <D7F388E4-6DDF-42D0-8E59-A80377054C71@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <613478881.4144541275508623047.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

http://www.resistnet.com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network

----- Original Message -----
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:02:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Copier Memory

Oh brother!


On Jun 1, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Ed Davie wrote:

> You might be interested in this.
> Ed

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 14:02:19 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:02:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Snap Judgments
In-Reply-To: <2D513865-6476-4079-AC7C-0032F775DD3C@verizon.net>
References: <010001cb01e6$1fe135b0$5fa3a110$@com>
	<2D513865-6476-4079-AC7C-0032F775DD3C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <002101cb0296$e4d315e0$ae7941a0$@com>

David,

> From: David Morelli [mailto:jo.david at verizon.net]
> 
> The Greenberg photos of McCain were less subtle
> political propoganda characteratures.

Yes, but the more ominous one referenced in the article was a piece separate
from the commissioned work.


> BTW, there is a news story of a sink hole in Guatamala
> that ate a building. The best photo really screams
> "Photoshop!"
> 
> While there are some very deep sink hole, that one - if
> it is real - would scare the daylights out of me.  The
> picture is shows something several hundred feet deep
> with vertical sides.

Yes, though from additional photos I found today, the idea of it being a
hole with vertical sides is merely a matter of perspective.

http://colt-rane.com/the-gates-of-hell-have-officially-opened/

Notice the second to last photo especially.

Here's video footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGwCZQ96dQ

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhbuuW8PD8k

Notice there's already conspiracy theories being cooked up about this
involving aliens.

*grin*

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  2 14:53:27 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:53:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Boy, oh boy, oh boy ! ! !
Message-ID: <4C06D2D7.5080206@jurislex.com>

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From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun  2 15:02:43 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:02:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Boy, oh boy, oh boy ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C06D2D7.5080206@jurislex.com>
References: <4C06D2D7.5080206@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0ABEF-B47E-42A6-8DB6-2BAECECCA727@teleport.com>

"Newsweek would continue in its mission to objectively report the  
news and provide analysis from a wide spectrum of perspectives."



Yep! No doubt. A wide spectrum of perspectives, ranging from Jeff  
Davis to Atilla the Hun. ;^)

On Jun 2, 2010, at 2:53 PM, Bob Browning wrote:

> "Newsweek would continue in its mission to objectively report the  
> news and provide analysis from a wide spectrum of perspectives."


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 15:22:14 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:22:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Boy, oh boy, oh boy ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C06D2D7.5080206@jurislex.com>
References: <4C06D2D7.5080206@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <003901cb02a2$0f51d5d0$2df58170$@com>

Bob,

> From: Bob Browning
> 
> Here's a bit of news which does not bode well for
> the future of the Republic.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Yahoo! News <http://news.yahoo.com/>

Ewww, I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

The financial report for NewsMax indicates their income comes for
advertisements (and selling subscriptions that come with a free emergency
radio, a $30 value) and from things like the Blaylock Wellness Report; color
me completely unsurprised.  Working with a nutjob like Blaylock in some way
further supports the position I've ended up taking on the noise that comes
from NewsMax.

http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html

One of the things Blaylock pushes is a link between vaccines and autism, a
myth that has been dealt with by a thorough scientific study, yet he
continues to push, prod, and, yes, lie.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/Autism/10772

If Britain can take care of this sort of scare-scourge, why can't we?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704113504575263994195318772.ht
ml

Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun  2 15:40:42 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:40:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
Message-ID: <C7F4BC4E-2CEF-412D-B573-120F414B7BC8@verizon.net>

Interesting article.
Once an idea is planted in a person's head, especially one that is  
easy to understand and has a kernel of truth, it is hard to refute it  
even if it is false. I think part of it  is because 'the truth' often  
is fairly simple.
How simple is the idea that the earth revolves around the sun?  It is  
simple and it explains a lot.
How simple is the germ theory of illness?  Back in the days when  
people all drank out of the same cup tied to the community well,  
there were thousands of ideas about how people got sick.  And even  
when the true germ theory was proposed, there was a lot of opposition  
to it, perhaps because it was too simple.  But we know it is true.

So, when something seems complicated, we try to find the simple truth  
to explain it because we have been taught that simple truths often  
are the explanation.  It isn't until later that the simple theories  
get more complicated. (Germs can be bacteria, viruses, maybe even  
prions, etc.  always something new and more dramatic than what we  
originally called by the generic term - germs...)

I think we want to understand what is going on around us but we don't  
always want to do the work the know whether the folks who tell us  
things have a hidden agenda themselves.

Thanks for the article.  It does make one want to dig deeper when you  
hear anything of an explanation that seems to good to be true.

Katie


On Jun 2, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Jeff Howden wrote:

>
> I'm no longer satisfied with merely debunking spurious claims  
> (anywhere I
> read or hear them, not just here).  So, in an effort to understand the
> psychology of fear, conspiracy, superstition, etc., I've started  
> doing some
> looking around online for more information.  I happened upon this  
> article.
>
>
> Additionally, National Geographic will be airing a program this  
> Sunday, June
> 6, at 10am, 9/11: Science and Conspiracy, which will examine the  
> alleged
> conspiracies and available evidence.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> American Conspiracy X
> http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/9-11-science-and- 
> conspiracy-40
> 67/article-1
> By Patrick J. Kiger
>
>
> Conspiracy Now!
>
>
> Recently, Delaware Republican Congressman Mike Castle was leading a  
> town
> meeting on health care reform, when he was confronted by an  
> impassioned
> woman waving a small American flag with one hand and with the other,
> clutching a plastic bag containing what she said was her own birth
> certificate. In a moment captured in a YouTube video, she insisted on
> switching to a different topic: her belief that Castle and other  
> members of
> Congress were complicit in a conspiracy to conceal that President  
> Barack
> Obama actually is ineligible to serve in the nation's highest  
> office. "I
> want to know why are you people ignoring his birth certificate," she
> screeched. "He is not an American citizen. He is a citizen of  
> Kenya... I
> don't want this flag to change. I want my country back!"
>
> "If you're referring to the President there, he's a citizen of the  
> United
> States," the Congressman, his voice quavering with obvious  
> discomfort, tried
> to reassure the audience. But the response-a cacophony of hoots and
> catcalls-suggested that many of them also were confirmed  
> "Birthers," as
> believers that Obama is secretly a non-citizen are called. It is a  
> notion
> that was long ago conclusively disproven; state officials in Hawaii  
> have
> verified that Obama's 1961 birth certificate is genuine, and  
> investigators
> from Factcheck.org, a web site published by the University of  
> Pennsylvania's
> non-partisan Annenberg Public Policy Center, examined the actual  
> document
> and posted high-resolution images of it to show that it had an  
> authentic
> seal and signature. None of that seems to have convinced the 11  
> percent of
> Americans who subscribe to the theory, according to a recent poll.  
> In calls
> to radio talk shows, postings on myriad web sites and interviews with
> reporters, Birthers weave increasingly convoluted tales of a  
> conspiracy
> involving forged documents and 39 bogus Social Security numbers to  
> which
> Obama allegedly is linked. "The biggest political cover up in American
> history is taking place right before our eyes," breathlessly  
> proclaims one
> Birther blog. But it gets worse. That alleged cover-up may only be in
> furtherance of an even darker alleged conspiracy-an Obama plan to  
> create a
> new civilian national security force that the foreign usurper would  
> use to
> crush dissent.
>
> But Birthers are only the latest group to engage in what has become a
> time-honored American tradition: the espousing of conspiracy theories.
> Virtually since the inception of the republic, its citizens have  
> eagerly
> envisioned dark cabals and cover-ups of heinous crimes by powerful  
> figures
> both inside and outside the government, at various times in league  
> with
> secret organizations, foreign governments, religious and ethnic  
> groups with
> nefarious hidden agendas, and perhaps even space aliens. But in recent
> years-particularly since the advent of the Internet, which has made  
> it easy
> for virtually anyone with a suspicion not only to research and  
> publicize it,
> but to recruit a cadre of like-minded individuals in distant towns and
> cities-the conspiracy theory subculture has proliferated like a viral
> epidemic. Conspiracy theorists have fought to write their own,  
> alternative
> versions of American history, one in which some of the most  
> significant
> events have been concealed by government duplicity, while others,  
> such as
> the 1969 Moon landing, actually were elaborate deceptions.  
> Collectively,
> their accusations form a meta-narrative in which official sources  
> cannot be
> trusted, and in which nothing ever seems to happen by chance. And  
> while it's
> tempting to dismiss conspiracy theorists as preposterous, it's hard  
> to deny
> the extent of conspiracism's influence on American popular culture, as
> indicated by the sizeable genre of Hollywood conspiracy movies such  
> as JFK,
> Wag the Dog and Conspiracy Theory, TV shows such as "The X-Files" and
> "Fringe," and the runaway success of Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci  
> Code,
> which explores a fictional conspiracy within the Roman Catholic  
> Church.
>
>
> Our History of Conspiracy Theories
>
>
> Our societal attraction to conspiracy theories is evidenced by a 2007
> national poll carried out by the Scripps Survey Research Center at  
> Ohio
> University. The poll indicated that nearly two-thirds of Americans  
> believe
> that federal government officials may have chosen to ignore advance  
> warnings
> of the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, and  
> 81 percent
> believed that it was "somewhat likely" or "very likely" that oil  
> companies
> conspired to keep the price of gasoline high. Thirty-seven percent  
> believed
> that flying saucers might be real and that the government was  
> hiding the
> truth about them, while 42 percent suspected that government  
> officials might
> have had prior knowledge that President John F. Kennedy would be
> assassinated in 1963.
>
> None of this is completely new. As University of Utah historian Robert
> Goldberg notes in an essay in the 2003 book, Conspiracy Theories in  
> American
> History: An Encyclopedia, Americans struggling to survive in a new  
> land
> early on saw themselves as being beset by enemies, both real and  
> imagined.
> One of the first manifestations was the Salem witch trials of the  
> 1690s,
> triggered by Massachusetts colonists' belief that members of a  
> coven had
> entered with Satan into a diabolical plot to drive out the Christian
> religion from the new land. In the late 1700s, the American  
> Revolution was
> fueled in part by a belief that the British government was plotting to
> systematically enslave the colonists, some of whom harbored an even  
> darker
> suspicion that King George III actually was the Antichrist  
> predicted in the
> biblical book of Revelation in part because the numerical  
> conversions of
> Greek and Hebrew translations of the phrase "royal supremacy in Great
> Britain" totaled 666.
>
> As the nation grew, so did its suspicions. In the early 1800s, the
> Freemasons, who were rumored to have murdered an ex-member to  
> conceal their
> nefarious doings, and the Roman Catholic Church, suspected of  
> plotting to
> use Irish Catholic immigrant votes to take over the U.S.  
> government, came
> under scrutiny, while by the century's end, the Populist party was  
> fingering
> Wall Street and big banks of engaging in "a vast conspiracy against
> mankind." In the 1920s, industrialist Henry Ford decided that the Jews
> actually were culpable, and published articles and a book accusing  
> them of
> everything from secretly backing communism to fixing baseball  
> games. After
> the attack on Pearl Harbor, some Americans found it suspicious that  
> U.S.
> aircraft carriers were safely at sea that day, and decided that  
> President
> Roosevelt had allowed the attack to happen so he would have an  
> excuse to
> enter World War II. In the 1950s, the John Birch Society and  
> Republican Sen.
> Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin, among others, proclaimed that the U.S.  
> government
> had been infiltrated by vast numbers of communist agents. Others  
> argued that
> the fluoridation of drinking water, ostensibly to prevent tooth decay,
> actually was a Soviet plot to physically and/or mentally weaken the  
> American
> public, so they would be unable to resist a future communist takeover.
>
> American conspiracism grew even more explosively over the last half  
> of the
> 20th Century. Perhaps the greatest single impetus was the 1963  
> assassination
> of President John F. Kennedy. In their grief, many Americans found it
> difficult to believe that a single, disgruntled assassin was  
> responsible,
> and the Warren Commission's release of vast amounts of physical  
> evidence and
> testimony, intended to calm suspicions, only fueled them. "The big  
> mistake
> was publishing 26 volumes of evidence, which had a lot in it that  
> didn't
> substantiate the report," Paul Hoch, publisher of the Echoes of  
> Conspiracy
> newsletter, once explained. "Anyone could shell out $80 and get all  
> the
> material and look at it." JFK assasinologists pounced upon the  
> inevitable
> inconsistencies and unexplained details, using them as raw material  
> for
> myriad theories, ranging from the second gunman scenario to  
> speculation that
> official culprit Lee Harvey Oswald was a U.S. secret agent-or a KGB
> double-agent. Others posited the involvement of Cuban dictator  
> Fidel Castro
> or the Mafia.
>
> Even a subsequent Congressional reopening of the JFK investigation  
> in the
> 1970s didn't stop the public fascination with conspiracies. Partly  
> to blame,
> no doubt, were discomforting revelations of other actual, verifiable
> government cabals, such as Watergate and the Central Intelligence  
> Agency's
> secret attempts to develop a mind-control drug. A decade later, the  
> Reagan
> Administration was caught selling weapons to Iran and using the  
> profits to
> fund the overthrow of the Nicaraguan government, a scandal that  
> arguably
> helped make even the craziest accusations seem not quite so  
> implausible. By
> the 1990s, America had dueling choruses of conspiracy theorists at  
> opposite
> ends of the political spectrum, with leftists accusing the CIA of  
> having
> imported and sold crack cocaine, and rightists claiming that Clinton
> Administration aide Vince Foster-found dead in 1993 of what several  
> official
> investigations concluded was a self-inflicted gunshot wound-had been
> murdered to cover up liberal wrongdoing. In the middle, still  
> others warned
> that both political parties were complicit in a larger plot to  
> impose a "New
> World Order" and unify the planet under a single international  
> government.
>
>
> Conspiracy and Technology
>
>
> But the conspiracy theorists of past eras, who had to rely upon the
> typewriter, the placard and the whisper, undoubtedly would envy the
> high-tech communication methods available to contemporary groups  
> such as the
> Birthers and the 9-11 Truth movement (also known as "Truthers"), whose
> loosely-aligned adherents question the official explanation of the  
> attacks.
> In 2005, a Truther named Dylan Avery and two of his friends used a  
> laptop
> computer to turn video clips from TV news programs into an 80- 
> minute short
> film called Loose Change, which questions whether the World Trade  
> Center was
> destroyed by explosive charges planted inside, rather than by hijacked
> aircraft, and suggests that the U.S. government may have been  
> involved. In
> the year or so after he uploaded it to the Internet, Loose Change  
> was viewed
> more than 10 million times. "You can't believe anything someone  
> tells you
> just because they told you to," Avery explained in a Vanity Fair  
> interview.
> "Especially your government, and especially your media-the two  
> institutions
> that are put there to control you."
>
> Indeed, the Internet makes it possible for conspiracists to reach a  
> wider
> audience than ever before, without having to go through the filter of
> editors, publishers or libel lawyers. But what makes so many of us  
> receptive
> to their message? Research suggests that it may have less to do with
> compelling evidence than it does with feelings of powerlessness and a
> craving to make sense of confusing and troubling realities around  
> us. A 1994
> study by Rutgers University sociologist Ted Goertzel, who  
> questioned several
> hundred people about allegations ranging from flying saucer cover- 
> ups to the
> charge that the government was deliberately infecting African  
> Americans with
> HIV, discovered that minorities and young people were most likely  
> to believe
> in conspiracies, and that belief correlated with feelings that the  
> average
> person's lot in life was getting worse and that public officials were
> disinterested in their plight, in addition to personal  
> distrustfulness and
> worries about losing their jobs.
>
> Goertzel also found that subjects who accepted one conspiracy  
> theory tended
> to believe in others as well, indicating that, "belief in  
> conspiracies is a
> generalized ideological dimension." More recently, University of Texas
> business school researchers Jennifer Whitson and Adam Galinsky  
> deliberately
> tried to frustrate volunteers and make them feel powerless by  
> asking them to
> perform tasks such as spotting links among a series of deliberately
> dissimilar images; they found that subjects saw patterns where none  
> actually
> existed, in an effort to regain a sense of control.
>
> Conspiracy theories may help believers cope with those feelings.  
> But that
> satisfaction may come at the cost of becoming even more  
> marginalized; the
> stridency with which Birthers express their suspicions may only make
> non-believers more inclined to tune them out. After his run-in with  
> the
> angry woman with the flag and the birth certificate in a bag, for  
> example,
> Congressman Castle remained unconvinced. "I think there's strong,  
> compelling
> evidence that he's a citizen of the United States," he told the  
> Delaware
> News Journal. But he seems eager to avoid another YouTube  
> confrontation; his
> next conversation with the public will be a phone conference,  
> featuring
> constituents selected by him at random.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jawelch at coho.net  Wed Jun  2 15:42:43 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (John
  Welch)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:42:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle BS
In-Reply-To: <4259-4C06A0F2-11860@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <4259-4C06A0F2-11860@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <000601cb02a4$ea3512f0$be9f38d0$@net>

Two more that I recall from cross country trips to visit my dad's family in
Wisconsin.

Her chariot  
Raced eighty-per
They hauled away
What had Ben-Hur
BS

He was right, dead right
As he sped along 
But he's just as dead 
As if he'd been wrong
BS

And I aways unjoyed the "Little Stinker" service station signs across Idaho.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:21 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle BS

http://tinyurl.com/Hosstyle2
Don't worry, for it ain't what ya might think

~A~ that is my tall tale and I'm stickin' to it!





From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  2 16:05:27 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:05:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <C7F4BC4E-2CEF-412D-B573-120F414B7BC8@verizon.net>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
	<C7F4BC4E-2CEF-412D-B573-120F414B7BC8@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <004501cb02a8$1850a250$48f1e6f0$@com>

Katie,

> From: Katie Allnutt [mailto:allnutt at verizon.net]
> 
> So, when something seems complicated, we try to find
> the simple truth to explain it because we have been
> taught that simple truths often are the explanation. 
> It isn't until later that the simple theories get
> more complicated. 

I think it goes both ways.  I think that many conspiracy theories really on
the idea of an avalanche of "data".  In making the theory absurdly complex,
it then has a ridiculous number of supposed data points.  I believe that
this kind of approach makes use of the idea of "throw as much as possible
against the wall and see what sticks".  By utilizing tons of data points it
makes it a task of monumental effort to refute the individual data points.
Additionally, by being absurdly complex it gives the theorists the ability
to play the "well, it's more complicated than that -- you just don't
understand it" defense (Appeal to Complexity logical fallacy).
Additionally, by being absurdly complicated, many that aren't taken in by it
simply won't be willing to put in the effort to even get involved giving a
falsely perceived legitimacy through silence (argumentum ex silentio logical
fallacy).

If you're not familiar with logical fallacies, you might find the following
useful.

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

Jeff



From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Jun  2 16:44:39 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:44:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
In-Reply-To: <4265-4C069C28-1471@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <4265-4C069C28-1471@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <5AF3DF0F3AA14B4EB6A198DB94D4AA18@EdDaviePC>

Good!
Ed


From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:00 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You


Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Hi :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/smilehi.html 

 by the bye ... Mr Ed .. all of my roses are finally starting to
bud-out.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's my story and I'm stickin' to it! 
 

     
     

     
     



     

    

Sigs by Anna



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun  2 20:36:15 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 20:36:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] American Conspiracy X
In-Reply-To: <004501cb02a8$1850a250$48f1e6f0$@com>
References: <007701cb027e$411dd4c0$c3597e40$@com>
	<C7F4BC4E-2CEF-412D-B573-120F414B7BC8@verizon.net>
	<004501cb02a8$1850a250$48f1e6f0$@com>
Message-ID: <90AC6215-DC08-4A0E-91B2-D594C21FC0F1@verizon.net>

Thanks for the list.
There were several I need to learn about.

Katie

On Jun 2, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> Katie,
>
>> From: Katie Allnutt [mailto:allnutt at verizon.net]
>>
>> So, when something seems complicated, we try to find
>> the simple truth to explain it because we have been
>> taught that simple truths often are the explanation.
>> It isn't until later that the simple theories get
>> more complicated.
>
> I think it goes both ways.  I think that many conspiracy theories  
> really on
> the idea of an avalanche of "data".  In making the theory absurdly  
> complex,
> it then has a ridiculous number of supposed data points.  I believe  
> that
> this kind of approach makes use of the idea of "throw as much as  
> possible
> against the wall and see what sticks".  By utilizing tons of data  
> points it
> makes it a task of monumental effort to refute the individual data  
> points.
> Additionally, by being absurdly complex it gives the theorists the  
> ability
> to play the "well, it's more complicated than that -- you just don't
> understand it" defense (Appeal to Complexity logical fallacy).
> Additionally, by being absurdly complicated, many that aren't taken  
> in by it
> simply won't be willing to put in the effort to even get involved  
> giving a
> falsely perceived legitimacy through silence (argumentum ex  
> silentio logical
> fallacy).
>
> If you're not familiar with logical fallacies, you might find the  
> following
> useful.
>
> http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 09:06:53 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:06:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Snap Judgments
References: <010001cb01e6$1fe135b0$5fa3a110$@com>	<2D513865-6476-4079-AC7C-0032F775DD3C@verizon.net>
	<002101cb0296$e4d315e0$ae7941a0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C07D31D.000001.01676@DON-B2514E06367>

I'm not thinking Aliens. 

I am thinking lava tube.

A volcano near Guatemala City erupted recently.

Don 

 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/02/10 14:02:56
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Snap Judgments
 
David,
 
> From: David Morelli [mailto:jo.david at verizon.net]
>
> The Greenberg photos of McCain were less subtle
> political propoganda characteratures.
 
Yes, but the more ominous one referenced in the article was a piece separate
from the commissioned work.
 
 
> BTW, there is a news story of a sink hole in Guatamala
> that ate a building. The best photo really screams
> "Photoshop!"
>
> While there are some very deep sink hole, that one - if
> it is real - would scare the daylights out of me.  The
> picture is shows something several hundred feet deep
> with vertical sides.
 
Yes, though from additional photos I found today, the idea of it being a
hole with vertical sides is merely a matter of perspective.
 
http://colt-rane.com/the-gates-of-hell-have-officially-opened/
 
Notice the second to last photo especially.
 
Here's video footage.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oGwCZQ96dQ
 
Here's another:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhbuuW8PD8k
 
Notice there's already conspiracy theories being cooked up about this
involving aliens.
 
*grin*
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Thu Jun  3 09:20:47 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:20:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill or
	two.
In-Reply-To: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>

They did forget another statistic, at least 90% of the people who live 
there support this.  I don't, but this past weekend I talked to people 
from Kentucky (and other coal mining states) and they support this big 
time.  One of the main reasons is that once the mountain is removed it 
is used to flatten out land.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-biggers/rand-pauls-big-coal-blund_b_58939
> 0.html
>
> Rand Paul's Big Coal Blunder: Re Kentucky Plunder, "I don't think anyone's
> going to be missing a hill or two." (VIDEO)
>
> Here's Rand Paul's latest libertarian blunder: On the heels of a new NRDC
> report that over 293 mountains and 574,000 acres of hardwood forests in
> eastern Kentucky have been irreversibly destroyed by mountaintop removal
> strip mining, Rand Paul flippantly tells a TV interviewer in footage from
> last fall: "I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill or two here
> and there."
>
> Wrong.
>
> "This research shows what a sacrificial lamb Kentucky has been for an
> industry that is not interested in any kind of restoration," says
> Kentuckians for the Commonwealth member and eastern Kentucky resident Mick
> McCoy. "Here in Martin County, more than 25 percent of the land has been
> leveled by coal companies yet we are among the poorest of counties not just
> in Kentucky, but the entire country."
>
> Worse yet, Paul erroneously claims that "a lot of the land is desirable once
> it gets flattened out...Some people like the flat land, and some of it
> apparently has become rather valuable when it's become flattened."
>
> Wrong again. As NRDC's Rob Perks points out:
>
>     Of the 500 mountaintop removal sites we examined, we excluded 90 from
> our survey due to active, ongoing mining activity. That left 410 supposedly
> reclaimed mine sites, for which we found that:
>
>     366 (89.3%) had no form of verifiable post-mining economic reclamation
> excluding forestry and pasture
>
>     26 (6.3% of total) yield some form of verifiable post-mining economic
> development
>
>     Only about 4% of mountains in Kentucky and West Virginia, where the vast
> majority of this mining is occurring, had any post-mining economic activity.
>
>
> "Mining companies don't love mountains but they love bragging about how they
> restore mine sites for the benefit of local communities," says NRDC's Rob
> Perks. "Our study exposes Big Coal's broken promises by proving that
> post-mining economic prosperity is a big, flat lie."
>
> Here's the Paul interview from October, 2009:
>
> [VIDEO]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Thu Jun  3 09:35:54 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:35:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <25316-4C07D9EA-5455@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

-: Good Morning :-
Hi This Greeting Is Just For You -
http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/gmorncats.html

 A bit cold this morning (40*), but at least Ole Sol has decided to make
his presence known, and now I ain't got any reason to stay inside.  I've
got to catch up on my splitting and stacking up of cords of wood. I've
only been using trees that have been felled by the wind, or have the
root rot. 

~A~ This is todays morning story, and I'm stickin' to it!



From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Jun  3 09:49:42 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:49:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
Message-ID: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>

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From nospam03 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 09:58:01 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:58:01 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill
	ortwo.
In-Reply-To: <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com><4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1417840275-1275584283-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1236235816-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Sounds like a conspiracy to me. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:20:47 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill or
	two.

They did forget another statistic, at least 90% of the people who live 
there support this.  I don't, but this past weekend I talked to people 
from Kentucky (and other coal mining states) and they support this big 
time.  One of the main reasons is that once the mountain is removed it 
is used to flatten out land.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-biggers/rand-pauls-big-coal-blund_b_58939
> 0.html
>
> Rand Paul's Big Coal Blunder: Re Kentucky Plunder, "I don't think anyone's
> going to be missing a hill or two." (VIDEO)
>
> Here's Rand Paul's latest libertarian blunder: On the heels of a new NRDC
> report that over 293 mountains and 574,000 acres of hardwood forests in
> eastern Kentucky have been irreversibly destroyed by mountaintop removal
> strip mining, Rand Paul flippantly tells a TV interviewer in footage from
> last fall: "I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill or two here
> and there."
>
> Wrong.
>
> "This research shows what a sacrificial lamb Kentucky has been for an
> industry that is not interested in any kind of restoration," says
> Kentuckians for the Commonwealth member and eastern Kentucky resident Mick
> McCoy. "Here in Martin County, more than 25 percent of the land has been
> leveled by coal companies yet we are among the poorest of counties not just
> in Kentucky, but the entire country."
>
> Worse yet, Paul erroneously claims that "a lot of the land is desirable once
> it gets flattened out...Some people like the flat land, and some of it
> apparently has become rather valuable when it's become flattened."
>
> Wrong again. As NRDC's Rob Perks points out:
>
>     Of the 500 mountaintop removal sites we examined, we excluded 90 from
> our survey due to active, ongoing mining activity. That left 410 supposedly
> reclaimed mine sites, for which we found that:
>
>     366 (89.3%) had no form of verifiable post-mining economic reclamation
> excluding forestry and pasture
>
>     26 (6.3% of total) yield some form of verifiable post-mining economic
> development
>
>     Only about 4% of mountains in Kentucky and West Virginia, where the vast
> majority of this mining is occurring, had any post-mining economic activity.
>
>
> "Mining companies don't love mountains but they love bragging about how they
> restore mine sites for the benefit of local communities," says NRDC's Rob
> Perks. "Our study exposes Big Coal's broken promises by proving that
> post-mining economic prosperity is a big, flat lie."
>
> Here's the Paul interview from October, 2009:
>
> [VIDEO]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From nospam03 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 10:01:44 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 17:01:44 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

That intro paragraph sounds like it was written by a conspiracy nut. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 09:49:42 
To: Grovenet<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 10:07:37 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 10:07:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: I'M TIRED AT 63
Message-ID: <4C07E155.000011.01676@DON-B2514E06367>

Will we ever be the way we were in our hay day?

How much do we care, one way or the other?

Are we being too complacent, too sure that we won't later lose everything?

I hope negative history does not repeat it'self. It is just too expensive.
We cannot afford it.

Thanks for caring all.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Velon
Date: 6/2/2010 8:09:49 PM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:,
Subject: Fw: I'M TIRED AT 63
 
 



Talk about laying it on the line..........read on..............


         Robert A. Hall is the actor who plays the coroner on CSI if you
watch that show. 
This should be required reading for every man, woman and child in the United
States of America. 
  "I'm 63 and Im Tired"
by Robert A. Hall

  
I'm 63.  Except for one semester in college when jobs were scarce and a
six-month period when I was between jobs, but job-hunting every day, I've
worked, hard, since I was 18. Despite some health challenges, I still put in
50-hour weeks, and haven't called in sick in seven or eight years. I make a
good salary, but I didn't inherit my job or my income, and I worked to get
where I am. Given the economy, there's no retirement in sight, and I'm tired
 Very tired.   

I'm tired of being told that I have to "spread the wealth" to people who don
t have my work ethic. I'm tired of being told the government will take the
money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too lazy to
earn it.   

I'm tired of being told that I have to pay more taxes to "keep people in
their homes."  Sure, if they lost their jobs or got sick, I'm willing to
help. But if they bought McMansions at three times the price of our paid-off
 $250,000 condo, on one-third of my salary, then let the left-wing
Congress-critters who passed Fannie and Freddie and the Community
Reinvestment Act that created the bubble help them with their own money.   

I'm tired of being told how bad America is by left-wing millionaires like
Michael Moore, George Soros and Hollywood Entertainers who live in luxury
because of the opportunities America offers. In thirty years, if they get
their way, the United States will have the economy of Zimbabwe, the freedom
of the press of China, the crime and violence of Mexico, the tolerance for
Christian people of Iran, and the freedom of speech of Venezuela. 

I'm tired of being told that Islam is a "Religion of Peace," when every day
I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and
daughters for their family "honor"; of Muslims rioting over some slight
offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren't 
believers"; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage
rape victims to death for "adultery"; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of
little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur'an and Shari'a law
tells them to.   

I'm tired of being told that "race doesn't matter" in the post-racial world
of Obama, when it's all that matters in affirmative action jobs, lower
college admission and graduation standards for minorities (harming them the
most), government contract set-asides, tolerance for the ghetto culture of
violence and fatherless children that hurts minorities more than anyone, and
in the appointment of U.S. Senators from Illinois.   

I think it's very cool that we have a black president and that a black child
is doing her homework at the desk where Lincoln wrote the Emancipation
Proclamation. I just wish the black president was Condi Rice, or someone who
believes more in freedom and the individual and less arrogantly of an
all-knowing government.   

I'm tired of a news media that thinks Bush's fundraising and inaugural
expenses were obscene, but that think Obama's, at triple the cost, were
wonderful; that thinks Bush exercising daily was a waste of presidential
time, but Obama exercising is a great example for the public to control
weight and stress; that picked over every line of Bush's military records,
but never demanded that Kerry release his; that slammed Palin, with two
years as governor, for being too inexperienced for VP, but touted Obama with
three years as senator as potentially the best president ever. Wonder why
people are dropping their subscriptions or switching to Fox News?  Get a
clue. I didn't vote for Bush in 2000, but the media and Kerry drove me to
his camp in 2004.   

I'm tired of being told that out of "tolerance for other cultures" we must
let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and mandrassa Islamic
schools to preach hate in America, while no American group is allowed to
fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love
and tolerance.   

I'm tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global
warming, which no one is allowed to debate. My wife and I live in a
two-bedroom apartment and carpool together five miles to our jobs. We also
own a  three-bedroom condo where our daughter and granddaughter live. Our
carbon footprint is about 5% of Al Gore's, and if you're greener than Gore,
you're green enough.   

I'm tired of being told that drug addicts have a disease, and I must help
support and treat them, and pay for the damage they do. Did a giant germ
rush out of a dark alley, grab them, and stuff white powder up their noses
while they tried to fight it off? I don't think Gay people choose to be Gay,
but I damn sure think druggies chose to take drugs. And I'm tired of
harassment from cool people treating me like a freak when I tell them I
never tried marijuana.   

I'm tired of illegal aliens being called "undocumented workers," especially
the ones who aren't working, but are living on welfare or crime. What's
next?  Calling drug dealers, "Undocumented Pharmacists"?  And, no,  I'm not
against Hispanics. Most of them are Catholic, and it's been a few hundred
years since Catholics wanted to kill me for my religion.  I'm willing to
fast track for citizenship any Hispanic person, who can speak English, doesn
t have a criminal record and who is self-supporting without family on
welfare, or who serves honorably for three years in our military.... Those
are the citizens we need.   

I'm tired of latte liberals and journalists, who would never wear the
uniform of the Republic themselves, or let their entitlement-handicapped
kids near a recruiting station, trashing our military. They and their kids
can sit at home, never having to make split-second decisions under life and
death circumstances, and bad mouth better people than themselves. Do bad
things happen in war?  You bet. Do our troops sometimes misbehave?  Sure.
Does this compare with the atrocities that were the policy of our enemies
for the last fifty years and still are?  Not even close.  So here's the deal
 I'll let myself be subjected to all the humiliation and abuse that was
heaped on terrorists at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo, and the critics can let
themselves be subject to captivity by the Muslims, who tortured and beheaded
Daniel Pearl in Pakistan, or the Muslims who tortured and murdered Marine Lt
 Col. William Higgins in Lebanon, or the Muslims who ran the blood-spattered
Al Qaeda torture rooms our troops found in Iraq, or the Muslims who cut off
the heads of schoolgirls in Indonesia, because the girls were Christian.
Then we'll compare notes. British and American soldiers are the only troops
in history that civilians came to for help and handouts, instead of hiding
from in fear.   

I'm tired of people telling me that their party has a corner on virtue and
the other party has a corner on corruption. Read the papers; bums are
bipartisan. And I'm tired of people telling me we need bipartisanship. I
live in  Illinois , where the "Illinois Combine" of Democrats has worked to
loot the public for years. Not to mention the tax cheats in Obama's cabinet.
  

I'm tired of hearing wealthy athletes, entertainers and politicians of both
parties talking about innocent mistakes, stupid mistakes or youthful
mistakes, when we all know they think their only mistake was getting caught.
I'm tired of people with a sense of entitlement, rich or poor.   

Speaking of poor, I'm tired of hearing people with air-conditioned homes,
color TVs and two cars called poor. The majority of Americans didn't have
that in 1970, but we didn't know we were "poor." The poverty pimps have to
keep changing the definition of poor to keep the dollars flowing.   

I'm real tired of people who don't take responsibility for their lives and
actions. I'm tired of hearing them blame the government, or discrimination
or big-whatever for their problems.   

Yes, I'm damn tired. But I'm also glad to be 63. Because, mostly, I'm not
going to have to see the world these people are making. I'm just sorry for
my granddaughter.   

Robert  A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the
Massachusetts  State  Senate.

There is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it
on!
This is your chance to make a difference.




 


 

   












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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2913 - Release Date: 06/02/10
02:57:00





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From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Jun  3 10:19:02 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:19:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
	<184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com>

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From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 10:29:10 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 10:29:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com>
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
	<184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <001601cb0342$47ab13b0$d7013b10$@net>

But then you have to define both real and science. 

Accrediting scientists could be considered a Scheme or Conspiracy. 

Scientists have been wrong at times. Nuclear energy is safe you know.
Scientists said it.

 

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:19 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .

 

Yep ! ! ! The conspiracy to teach children "real" science ! ! !

bob "the science guy" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/3/2010 10:01 AM, Steve wrote: 

That intro paragraph sounds like it was written by a conspiracy nut. 

 


From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Jun  3 10:43:56 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:43:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <001601cb0342$47ab13b0$d7013b10$@net>
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
	<184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com> <001601cb0342$47ab13b0$d7013b10$@net>
Message-ID: <4C07E9DC.6030306@jurislex.com>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 11:11:48 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:11:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: [ROOTS-L] Irish Census
Message-ID: <4C07F061.00001E.01676@DON-B2514E06367>

For all interested genealogical researchers:

Ireland Census for 1901 and 1911 have been posted online, free for anyone to
use. 

We have waited years for this.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: casheley at aol.com
Date: 6/3/2010 1:24:59 AM
To: ROOTS-L at rootsweb.com
Subject: [ROOTS-L] Irish Census
 
The 1901 Ireland census has gone on-line tonight.
 
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/ then select 1911 or 1901.
They are
both FREE to access in full!"
 
=====
If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to
roots-admin at rootsweb.com and ask for the digest...
 
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request at rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun  3 11:27:32 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:27:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill or
	two.
In-Reply-To: <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com> <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01dd01cb034a$6f725c20$4e571460$@com>

Adam,

> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> They did forget another statistic, at least 90% of the people
> who live there support this. 

Do you have a link to a source that documents that statistic?

I found a few surveys, but none that indicated any percentage in the
majority that supported it, save one, though it was nowhere near the
percentage you suggest above.

1998 - 53% against, only 29% for, 18% undecided or no opinion
http://www.sundaygazettemail.com/News/MiningtheMountains/200807030412

2004 - Nationwide survey where an overwhelming majority did not support it.
http://www.appalachian-center.org/poll_results/wv_mtr_poll.pdf

2008 - Nationwide survey where an overwhelming majority did not support it.
When broken down by region, the South was 59% against it.
http://www.earthjustice.org/library/references/mtr-presentation.pdf

2009 - Poll on a Kentucky News Site where only 44% support it and 55% oppose
it.
http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=41853852

I can't find a date referencing the poll here, but they indicate the numbers
are 49% opposed, 40% for, and 12% don't know.  I looked for the poll on the
site they reference, but was unsuccessful.
http://www.wvrivers.org/issues/mountaintopremoval/mountaintopremoval.html

The closest I could find in favor of it, though not technically, was the
following poll conducted in West Virginia:
http://www.statejournal.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=66285

In this poll 72% said it should not be illegal.  In that same poll, 87% said
that the coal industry is very important to the West Virginia economy.  So,
they could be indicating that it shouldn't be illegal because of its
importance to the local economy.  However, the poll did not ask the question
of whether or not they were opposed to it or not, merely they're opinion on
the legality.  The question of legality juxtaposed against the question of
economics could be found to increase the likelihood their response about
legality had more to do with economics than actually being for the practice.

I suspect that any poll that finds that the majority are in favor of
mountaintop removal will make use of this awkward positioning of the
question about mountaintop removal and the importance of coal mining to the
economy.  I also suspect that the only segment of the citizenry that's for
it in the majority would be those that are employed by it.  However, I
highly doubt that the citizens of the state of Kentucky as a whole are for
it in the majority.

I've done a lot of unnecessary legwork to attempt to find data that helps
make or break your claim.  Can you supply a link to your source for your
claim that "90% of the people who live there support this"?

Thanks,

Jeff






From gritton.family at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 11:35:57 2010
From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 18:35:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <418133543.4457321275590157406.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Cool book! 

I've found some fun scientific kits over at Let's Play in Hillsboro that cover several different topics (including DNA, Electricity, etc.), but this looks like it covers a lot of topics (and could be fun for summer!) 

Thanks for the link. 

Cindy Gritton 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Browning" <rab at jurislex.com> 
To: "Grovenet" <grovenet at rdrop.com> 
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2010 9:49:42 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . . 

>From the June 2, 2010 edition of eSkeptic online magazine - 

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-02/ 


The Book of Potentially Catastrophic Science: 50 Experiments for Daring Young Scientists (cover detail composite)

Science in the Spirit of Mythbusters 


by Harriet Hall, M.D., the Skepdoc 

We skeptics spend a lot of time critiquing non-science and too little time promoting science itself. Science is awe-inspiring and fun, and any effort to communicate that to our children is worthwhile. A new book by Sean Connolly, The Book of Potentially Catastrophic Science: 50 Experiments for Daring Young Scientists , serves that goal well. 

Connolly makes science sound like a great adventure: he explains how ?mad? scientists have carried out potentially catastrophic experiments like jumping out of a balloon with only a few yards of silk to slow down the fall. Brave scientific pioneers stuck their necks out to make breakthrough discoveries that have vastly improved our lives and our understanding of how the world works. 

He describes 34 of the greatest scientific breakthroughs, from stone age tools through Galileo, Newton, Jenner, Darwin, and Curie to the Large Hadron Collider. He tells their stories in an accessible, entertaining style, and he explains the scientific principles in simple terms illustrated by compelling examples. The book is intended for children ages 9 and up, but even adult scientists might enjoy reading it and might even learn a thing or two. 

The best part is the experiments: 50 of them that kids can do at home to illustrate those principles. He makes them more exciting by rating them from one to four on a Catastrophic Meter Chart, with one representing ?no risk of catastrophe? and four representing ?high risk: involves use of fire, lot liquids, or hazardous substances. Adult supervision required.? Some of them are delightfully messy, like creating avalanches with sugar and flour, spilling water, and counting how many popcorn kernels pop out of an open pan per unit of time to demonstrate what radioactive half-life means. You can extract DNA in a kitchen experiment. You can measure the speed of light by melting marshmallows in the microwave oven. You can create a fossil. You can send a toy soldier aloft in a hot air trash bag balloon. You can build a soda bottle rocket. You can shock your tongue with a battery you make yourself from a stack of nickels and pennies. 

Young fans of the Mythbusters should particularly love this book. Doing their own experiments is a step up from watching them on TV, and it might even be the first step towards a career in science. 

_______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun  3 11:57:32 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:57:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: [ROOTS-L] Irish Census
In-Reply-To: <4C07F061.00001E.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C07F061.00001E.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <01e901cb034e$a047bee0$e0d73ca0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> For all interested genealogical researchers:
> 
> Ireland Census for 1901 and 1911 have been posted online,
> free for anyone to use.

Thanks for posting this.  I was able to find a number of entries that share
my surname.  Now, to figure out which ones I'm genealogically connected to.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun  3 11:57:32 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:57:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: I'M TIRED AT 63
In-Reply-To: <4C07E155.000011.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C07E155.000011.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <01ef01cb034e$a3b06550$eb112ff0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Robert A. Hall is the actor who plays the coroner
> on CSI if you watch that show.
> 
> "I'm 63 and Im Tired" 
> by Robert A. Hall

I won't respond to the specific inaccuracies Mr. Hall makes in his letter,
but I did want to point out that the attribution, while correct, isn't the
Robert Hall of CSI fame.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/imtired.asp

The author of this letter is Robert A. Hall, a Massachusetts Republican
Senator from 1972 to 1982 and an ex-Marine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Hall

The Robert Hall of CSI fame is Robert David Hall
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004371/

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 12:16:28 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:16:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
	<184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com> <001601cb0342$47ab13b0$d7013b10$@net>
	<4C07E9DC.6030306@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C07FF89.000032.01676@DON-B2514E06367>

Thinking through all of the possible sources of energy, none are totally
risk free, even solar can burn you.

Relatively safe though includes solar, geothermal, hydroelectric, wave and
tidal generators, and wind.

Don   
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Browning
Date: 6/3/2010 10:44:27 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
 
Actually, scientists say that nuclear energy is not safe ( http://www.umich
edu/~gs265/society/nuclear.htm ); it is the nuclear industry technologists
and pro-nuclear politicians who say it is safe ( http://www.world-nuclear
org/info/inf06.html ). And it appears that most pro-nuclear politicians seem
to come from states with uranium deposits which can be extracted to fuel the
plants ! !

And, from a relative standpoint, when compared to energy created from coal,
it "is" probably safer in the short term ! !

bob "glow in the dark" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

On 6/3/2010 10:29 AM, Steven wrote: 
But then you have to define both real and science. 

Accrediting scientists could be considered a Scheme or Conspiracy. 

Scientists have been wrong at times. Nuclear energy is safe you know.
Scientists said it.

 

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:19 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .

 

Yep ! ! ! The conspiracy to teach children "real" science ! ! !

bob "the science guy" browning


 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 12:19:23 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:19:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
	<184906014-1275584506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-69232290-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C07E406.4010008@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C08003B.000035.01676@DON-B2514E06367>

GRIN, Bob, I caught that too. Real science? Are they talking about natural
sciences, or manufactured sciences?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Browning
Date: 6/3/2010 10:19:30 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
 
Yep ! ! ! The conspiracy to teach children "real" science ! ! !

bob "the science guy" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/3/2010 10:01 AM, Steve wrote: 
That intro paragraph sounds like it was written by a conspiracy nut. 


 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 13:23:09 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 13:23:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
References: <4C07DD26.3050102@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C080F27.000004.03364@DON-B2514E06367>

Nice article Bob. Folks confiscated my chemistry set after I stank up the
house with carbide.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Browning
Date: 6/3/2010 9:50:44 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Science is fun (and educational ! ! !) . . . . .
 
From the June 2, 2010 edition of eSkeptic online magazine - 

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-02/


 
Science in the Spirit of Mythbusters
by Harriet Hall, M.D., the Skepdoc 
We skeptics spend a lot of time critiquing non-science and too little time
promoting science itself. Science is awe-inspiring and fun, and any effort
to communicate that to our children is worthwhile. A new book by Sean
Connolly, The Book of Potentially Catastrophic Science: 50 Experiments for
Daring Young Scientists, serves that goal well. 
Connolly makes science sound like a great adventure: he explains how ?mad?
scientists have carried out potentially catastrophic experiments like
jumping out of a balloon with only a few yards of silk to slow down the fall
 Brave scientific pioneers stuck their necks out to make breakthrough
discoveries that have vastly improved our lives and our understanding of how
the world works. 
He describes 34 of the greatest scientific breakthroughs, from stone age
tools through Galileo, Newton, Jenner, Darwin, and Curie to the Large Hadron
Collider. He tells their stories in an accessible, entertaining style, and
he explains the scientific principles in simple terms illustrated by
compelling examples. The book is intended for children ages 9 and up, but
even adult scientists might enjoy reading it and might even learn a thing or
two. 
The best part is the experiments: 50 of them that kids can do at home to
illustrate those principles. He makes them more exciting by rating them from
one to four on a Catastrophic Meter Chart, with one representing ?no risk of
catastrophe? and four representing ?high risk: involves use of fire, lot
liquids, or hazardous substances. Adult supervision required.? Some of them
are delightfully messy, like creating avalanches with sugar and flour,
spilling water, and counting how many popcorn kernels pop out of an open pan
per unit of time to demonstrate what radioactive half-life means. You can
extract DNA in a kitchen experiment. You can measure the speed of light by
melting marshmallows in the microwave oven. You can create a fossil. You can
send a toy soldier aloft in a hot air trash bag balloon. You can build a
soda bottle rocket. You can shock your tongue with a battery you make
yourself from a stack of nickels and pennies. 
Young fans of the Mythbusters should particularly love this book. Doing
their own experiments is a step up from watching them on TV, and it might
even be the first step towards a career in science.


 
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun  3 13:27:34 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 13:27:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why People Believe in Conspiracies
Message-ID: <020a01cb035b$345b5860$9d120920$@com>

Why People Believe in Conspiracies
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-people-believe-in-consp
iracies

By Michael Shermer, September 2009

After a public lecture in 2005, I was buttonholed by a documentary filmmaker
with Michael Moore-ish ambitions of exposing the conspiracy behind 9/11.
"You mean the conspiracy by Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda to attack the
United States?" I asked rhetorically, knowing what was to come.

"That's what they want you to believe," he said. "Who is they?" I queried.
"The government," he whispered, as if "they" might be listening at that very
moment. "But didn't Osama and some members of al Qaeda not only say they did
it," I reminded him, "they gloated about what a glorious triumph it was?"

"Oh, you're talking about that video of Osama," he rejoined knowingly. "That
was faked by the CIA and leaked to the American press to mislead us. There
has been a disinformation campaign going on ever since 9/11."

Conspiracies do happen, of course. Abraham Lincoln was the victim of an
assassination conspiracy, as was Austrian archduke Franz Ferdinand, gunned
down by the Serbian secret society called Black Hand. The attack on Pearl
Harbor was a Japanese conspiracy (although some conspiracists think Franklin
Roosevelt was in on it). Watergate was a conspiracy (that Richard Nixon was
in on). How can we tell the difference between information and
disinformation? As Kurt Cobain, the rocker star of Nirvana, once growled in
his grunge lyrics shortly before his death from a self-inflicted (or was
it?) gunshot to the head, "Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're
not after you."

But as former Nixon aide G. Gordon Liddy once told me (and he should know!),
the problem with government conspiracies is that bureaucrats are incompetent
and people can't keep their mouths shut. Complex conspiracies are difficult
to pull off, and so many people want their quarter hour of fame that even
the Men in Black couldn't squelch the squealers from spilling the beans. So
there's a good chance that the more elaborate a conspiracy theory is, and
the more people that would need to be involved, the less likely it is true.

Why do people believe in highly improbable conspiracies? In previous columns
I have provided partial answers, citing patternicity (the tendency to find
meaningful patterns in random noise) and agenticity (the bent to believe the
world is controlled by invisible intentional agents). Conspiracy theories
connect the dots of random events into meaningful patterns and then infuse
those patterns with intentional agency. Add to those propensities the
confirmation bias (which seeks and finds confirmatory evidence for what we
already believe) and the hindsight bias (which tailors after-the-fact
explanations to what we already know happened), and we have the foundation
for conspiratorial cognition.

Examples of these processes can be found in journalist Arthur Goldwag's
marvelous new book, Cults, Conspiracies, and Secret Societies (Vintage,
2009), which covers everything from the Freemasons, the Illuminati and the
Bilderberg Group to black helicopters and the New World Order. "When
something momentous happens, everything leading up to and away from the
event seems momentous, too. Even the most trivial detail seems to glow with
significance," Goldwag explains, noting the JFK assassination as a prime
example. "Knowing what we know now ... film footage of Dealey Plaza from
November 22, 1963, seems pregnant with enigmas and ironies-from the oddly
expectant expressions on the faces of the onlookers on the grassy knoll in
the instants before the shots were fired (What were they thinking?) to the
play of shadows in the background (Could that flash up there on the overpass
have been a gun barrel gleaming in the sun?). Each odd excrescence, every
random lump in the visual texture seems suspicious." Add to these factors
how compellingly a good narrative story can tie it all together-think of
Oliver Stone's JFK or Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, both equally fictional.

What should we believe? Transcendentalists tend to believe that everything
is interconnected and that all events happen for a reason. Empiricists tend
to think that randomness and coincidence interact with the causal net of our
world and that belief should depend on evidence for each individual claim.
The problem for skepticism is that transcendentalism is intuitive;
empiricism is not. Or as folk rock group Buffalo Springfield once intoned:
Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep ...


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 13:58:10 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 13:58:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: I'M TIRED AT 63
References: <4C07E155.000011.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
	<01ef01cb034e$a3b06550$eb112ff0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C08175D.000007.03364@DON-B2514E06367>

Thanks Jeff. I figured it came from the retired marine. I have seen his
posts before.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/3/2010 11:58:13 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: I'M TIRED AT 63
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Robert A. Hall is the actor who plays the coroner
> on CSI if you watch that show.
>
> "I'm 63 and Im Tired"
> by Robert A. Hall
 
I won't respond to the specific inaccuracies Mr. Hall makes in his letter,
but I did want to point out that the attribution, while correct, isn't the
Robert Hall of CSI fame.
 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/imtired.asp
 
The author of this letter is Robert A. Hall, a Massachusetts Republican
Senator from 1972 to 1982 and an ex-Marine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Hall
 
The Robert Hall of CSI fame is Robert David Hall
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004371/
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun  3 14:06:46 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 14:06:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: [ROOTS-L] Irish Census
References: <4C07F061.00001E.01676@DON-B2514E06367>
	<01e901cb034e$a047bee0$e0d73ca0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C081963.00000E.03364@DON-B2514E06367>

Not easy in Ireland Jeff. From ancient one name identities, through
invasions, Normans, Vikings, British, even Scots, spelling of names changed
many times. Seems at times as I march through records that Kelly under ten
spellings account for 25% of the surnames in Ireland.

Good luck with yours. I'll bet among the 10,000 or so researchers online,
there are likely several whom can help you. I have found a number of
(potential) distant cousins that way.  
 
Howden may be British, but can't be entirely sure. They are all mixed in
with the Irish.  
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/3/2010 11:57:57 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: [ROOTS-L] Irish Census
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> For all interested genealogical researchers:
>
> Ireland Census for 1901 and 1911 have been posted online,
> free for anyone to use.
 
Thanks for posting this.  I was able to find a number of entries that share
my surname.  Now, to figure out which ones I'm genealogically connected to.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun  3 19:47:42 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:47:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] High altitude survelience baloons
Message-ID: <D3FCD263-87A9-4C1A-86D2-1444156331E0@verizon.net>

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/haa.htm

The project has been cancelled.  So they won't be watching you from above the jet stream.

Still it was an interesting project.

David


From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun  3 21:52:19 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 21:52:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] High altitude survelience baloons
In-Reply-To: <D3FCD263-87A9-4C1A-86D2-1444156331E0@verizon.net>
References: <D3FCD263-87A9-4C1A-86D2-1444156331E0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <55C2F4AC-E3B7-48DA-BC02-7CFAF2EBE494@teleport.com>

Yep. very interesting! I doubt it would be of much use for watching  
individuals, but for real-time communications, weather and air/sea  
surveillance, it might be very handy.  Course, what I would want is  
to bring back the Zeppelins. they got a bum rap.
WW
On Jun 3, 2010, at 7:47 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/haa.htm
>
> The project has been cancelled.  So they won't be watching you from  
> above the jet stream.
>
> Still it was an interesting project.
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 07:50:56 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 07:50:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <00d701cafd1f$42bcbf80$c8363e80$@com>
References: <8234-4BFD8578-862@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
	<00d701cafd1f$42bcbf80$c8363e80$@com>
Message-ID: <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>

Definition of a liberal - a conservative who just lost his job.
Definition of a conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.

I'd like to see it more in terms that he gained wisdom as he got older, 
but it was most likely he had to pay more taxes ;-)

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Alan,
>
>   
>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>
>> Today is TMC-Movie Net Works Tribute to John Wayne American. 
>>     
>
> Careful there.  John Wayne admitted to being a socialist. *cue creepy movie
> suspense sound effect*
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics
>
> "Wayne claimed in his Playboy interview to have been a
>  socialist during his years at college, and he admitted
>  voting for Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt
>  in the 1936 presidential election. In the same interview
>  he also expressed admiration for Democratic President
>  Harry S Truman.[21]  However, for most of his career he
>  was a vocally conservative Republican."
>
> We all know from what we've learned from a few here that "once a socialist,
> always a socialist".  *grin*
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 08:28:21 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:28:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
References: <8234-4BFD8578-862@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
	<00d701cafd1f$42bcbf80$c8363e80$@com> <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A037F863FBC4D3BB1B854440782128F@JeffVAIO>

In my experience, the older ones (over 40) are the ones losing their jobs. 
So I'd say you are right, we are gaining wisdom :)

-marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Adam Mayer" <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 7:50 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,and another bit of useless 
trivia.

> Definition of a liberal - a conservative who just lost his job.
> Definition of a conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.
>
> I'd like to see it more in terms that he gained wisdom as he got older,
> but it was most likely he had to pay more taxes ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>>
>>> Today is TMC-Movie Net Works Tribute to John Wayne American.
>>>
>>
>> Careful there.  John Wayne admitted to being a socialist. *cue creepy 
>> movie
>> suspense sound effect*
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics
>>
>> "Wayne claimed in his Playboy interview to have been a
>>  socialist during his years at college, and he admitted
>>  voting for Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt
>>  in the 1936 presidential election. In the same interview
>>  he also expressed admiration for Democratic President
>>  Harry S Truman.[21]  However, for most of his career he
>>  was a vocally conservative Republican."
>>
>> We all know from what we've learned from a few here that "once a 
>> socialist,
>> always a socialist".  *grin*
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Fri Jun  4 08:24:48 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:24:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <9621-4C091AC0-2406@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It is Friday :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/friday.html

Also, try this tiny one....
http://tinyurl.com/FridayStory

It might help those of that do not  have wrinkles yet. :?)

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From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun  4 08:28:46 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:28:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
References: <8234-4BFD8578-862@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
	<00d701cafd1f$42bcbf80$c8363e80$@com> <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <862030CC-DDC0-4FE2-878C-243B3C9CAAEE@teleport.com>

How 'bout:
Definition of a conservative: A guy who has already "got his," and  
just fired a bunch of liberals.
Definition of a liberal: A conservative who just got fired, and is  
rapidly losing "his."

On Jun 4, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Definition of a liberal - a conservative who just lost his job.
> Definition of a conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.
>
> I'd like to see it more in terms that he gained wisdom as he got  
> older,
> but it was most likely he had to pay more taxes ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>>
>>> Today is TMC-Movie Net Works Tribute to John Wayne American.
>>>
>>
>> Careful there.  John Wayne admitted to being a socialist. *cue  
>> creepy movie
>> suspense sound effect*
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics
>>
>> "Wayne claimed in his Playboy interview to have been a
>>  socialist during his years at college, and he admitted
>>  voting for Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt
>>  in the 1936 presidential election. In the same interview
>>  he also expressed admiration for Democratic President
>>  Harry S Truman.[21]  However, for most of his career he
>>  was a vocally conservative Republican."
>>
>> We all know from what we've learned from a few here that "once a  
>> socialist,
>> always a socialist".  *grin*
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun  4 08:53:23 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:53:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <862030CC-DDC0-4FE2-878C-243B3C9CAAEE@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <496686194.121311275666803996.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Contest: 

What is the best definition of a socialist?

What is the best definition of a socialist government?

Are there both left wing and right wing socialists, radical and conservative socialists?

don
----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:28:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] My last post for the day, and another bit of useless trivia.

How 'bout:
Definition of a conservative: A guy who has already "got his," and  
just fired a bunch of liberals.
Definition of a liberal: A conservative who just got fired, and is  
rapidly losing "his."

On Jun 4, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Definition of a liberal - a conservative who just lost his job.
> Definition of a conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.
>
> I'd like to see it more in terms that he gained wisdom as he got  
> older,
> but it was most likely he had to pay more taxes ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>>
>>> Today is TMC-Movie Net Works Tribute to John Wayne American.
>>>
>>
>> Careful there.  John Wayne admitted to being a socialist. *cue  
>> creepy movie
>> suspense sound effect*
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics
>>
>> "Wayne claimed in his Playboy interview to have been a
>>  socialist during his years at college, and he admitted
>>  voting for Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt
>>  in the 1936 presidential election. In the same interview
>>  he also expressed admiration for Democratic President
>>  Harry S Truman.[21]  However, for most of his career he
>>  was a vocally conservative Republican."
>>
>> We all know from what we've learned from a few here that "once a  
>> socialist,
>> always a socialist".  *grin*
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 09:09:15 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 09:09:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
References: <8234-4BFD8578-862@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
	<00d701cafd1f$42bcbf80$c8363e80$@com> <4C0912D0.9030804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5D14A99-6285-4A66-8670-464366E822B2@verizon.net>

The definitions I heard long ago were:
Liberal - a conservative who was just falsely accused of a crime.
Conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.

(But those were in the context of rights of the accused and the  
soaring costs of expanding jails vs rehab.)

Hopefully though we can all try to listen to the other side and if  
not agree with their perspective at least get some sense of where  
they are coming from.

Katie

On Jun 4, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Definition of a liberal - a conservative who just lost his job.
> Definition of a conservative - a liberal who just got mugged.
>
> I'd like to see it more in terms that he gained wisdom as he got  
> older,
> but it was most likely he had to pay more taxes ;-)
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>>
>>> Today is TMC-Movie Net Works Tribute to John Wayne American.
>>>
>>
>> Careful there.  John Wayne admitted to being a socialist. *cue  
>> creepy movie
>> suspense sound effect*
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne#Politics
>>
>> "Wayne claimed in his Playboy interview to have been a
>>  socialist during his years at college, and he admitted
>>  voting for Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelt
>>  in the 1936 presidential election. In the same interview
>>  he also expressed admiration for Democratic President
>>  Harry S Truman.[21]  However, for most of his career he
>>  was a vocally conservative Republican."
>>
>> We all know from what we've learned from a few here that "once a  
>> socialist,
>> always a socialist".  *grin*
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Fri Jun  4 09:22:00 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 09:22:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of	useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt <allnutt@verizon.net>'s message of Fri,
	04 Jun	2010 09:09:15 -0700
Message-ID: <21477-4C092828-525@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

 this ain't my my story I don't have much of anything to say, but to
each their own.

http://www.repentnow.com/liberal.htm


~A~



From rab at jurislex.com  Fri Jun  4 11:56:53 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:56:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
Message-ID: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100604/22daaa1c/attachment.html 

From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 14:31:05 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:31:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] My last post for the day,
	and another bit of	useless trivia.
In-Reply-To: <21477-4C092828-525@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <21477-4C092828-525@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <EA3D7C7F-A702-4A57-B29D-78B858ECA33C@verizon.net>

I will be generous and suggest that the author of that piece doesn't have English as their native language.

The Isaiah quote they offered was:
Isaiah 32:5
5. The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

In English that means,
You may have called them liberal or bountiful in the past, but things have changed with the Mosaic Law, " the vile person shall no more be called liberal, nor shall the churl said to be bountiful."

That piece of the Bible forbids followers of the Bible from calling vile people "liberals" and it forbids calling the churl, "bountiful".    The rest of the quote explains that vile and liberal are distinct and should not be confused.

David


On Jun 4, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> this ain't my my story I don't have much of anything to say, but to each their own.
> 
> http://www.repentnow.com/liberal.htm



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun  4 16:01:12 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:01:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <3B423718-C503-425E-8131-6ECAE57E4FFC@teleport.com>

Most interesting! So more "socially cognizant" people are more likely  
to see a hidden "order" in random events, while schizophrenic people  
are likely to carry this perception of "order" to an extreme.
My ex-wife has noted that some of her schizophrenic clients see  
"hidden messages" in the license plates of passing cars, messages  
addressed specifically to them.
Perhaps this also explains the ornate theories of the more extreme  
conspirationists, and why they so stubbornly resist outside  
information that calls their perceived "order" into question.
Anyhow, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it...
Until something better comes along...
WW

On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from  
> Scientific American:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Observations
>   May 29, 2010
>
> People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events  
> in their lives
>
> By Karen Schrock
>
>
> BOSTON?Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher  
> power or supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind  
> of thinking, called teleological thinking, is a by-product of  
> social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we developed the  
> ability to understand one anothers? ideas and intentions. As a  
> result of this ?theory of mind,? some experts figure, we also tend  
> to see intention or purpose?a conscious mind?behind random or  
> naturally occurring events. A new study presented here in a poster  
> at the 22nd annual meeting of the Association for Psychological  
> Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have an  
> impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological  
> way.
>
> Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University  
> Belfast, asked 27 people with Asperger?s syndrome, a mild type of  
> autism that involves impaired social cognition, about significant  
> events in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse  
> M. Bering (author of the "Bering in Mind" blog and a frequent  
> contributor to Scientific American MIND), she asked them to  
> speculate about why these important events happened?for instance,  
> why they had gone through an illness or why they met a significant  
> other. As compared with 34 neurotypical people, those with  
> Asperger?s syndrome were significantly less likely to invoke a  
> teleological response?for example, saying the event was meant to  
> unfold in a particular way or explaining that God had a hand in it.  
> They were more likely to invoke a natural cause (such as blaming an  
> illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to) or to give a  
> descriptive response, explaining the event again in a different way.
>
> In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with  
> Asperger?s with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists. The  
> atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses  
> such as ?there is no reason why; things just happen.? The people  
> with Asperger?s were significantly less likely to offer such anti- 
> teleological explanations than the atheists, indicating they were  
> not engaged in teleological thinking at all. (The atheists, in  
> contrast, revealed themselves to be reasoning teleologically, but  
> then they rejected those thoughts.)
>
> These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life  
> events is a result of our mind?s focus on social thinking. People  
> whose social cognition is impaired?those with Asperger?s, in this  
> case?are less likely to see the events in their lives as having  
> happened for a reason. Heywood would like to test the hypothesis  
> further by working with people who have schizophrenia or schizoid  
> personalities. Some experts theorize that certain schizophrenia  
> symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive  
> sense of social reasoning. ?I?d guess that they?d give lots of  
> teleological answers; more than neurotypical people, and certainly  
> far more than people with Asperger?s,? Heywood says.
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Guest Blog
>
> June 3, 2010
>
> If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?
>
> By John Horgan
>
> In a post on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger Karen Schrock  
> manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious  
> rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with  
> Asperger's, a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in  
> their lives to a "higher power or supernatural force," Karen  
> reports. Conversely, the tendency of supposedly healthy people to  
> see "intention or purpose" behind random events may stem from an  
> overactive "theory of mind," the innate ability to sense  
> perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a  
> pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts.  
> Who could disagree?
>
> The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as  
> particularly plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a  
> similar hypothesis in his book Faces in the Clouds: A New Theory of  
> Religion (Oxford University Press, 1995), which attributes religion  
> to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of human characteristics to  
> nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism is an inborn,  
> adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our ancestors'  
> chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about  
> the nature of the world, guessing that some thing or event is  
> humanlike or has a human cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie  
> explains.
>
> If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an  
> assailant, he suffered no adverse consequences other than a  
> moment's panic, Guthrie argues. If the Neandertal mistook an  
> assailant for a tree, the consequences might have been dire. As  
> natural selection bolstered our anthropomorphic tendencies, Guthrie  
> writes, they extended to all of nature, and we persuaded ourselves  
> that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show staged by  
> some master dramatist"?that is, God.
>
> Another intriguing theory of religion?or, more specifically,  
> religious or mystical experiences?has been proposed by the  
> radiologist Andrew Newberg. Using single-photon emission computed  
> tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission  
> tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying  
> Catholic nuns and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some  
> overlap between their neural activity and that of sexually aroused  
> subjects (scanned by other researchers). The correlation makes  
> sense, according to Newberg. Just as sex involves a rhythmic  
> activity, so do religious practices such as chanting, dancing and  
> repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious experiences produce  
> sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may be why  
> some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual  
> language.
>
> Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of  
> Avila of her vision of Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of  
> gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He  
> appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to  
> pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw  
> them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God."
>
> The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated  
> as what the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call  
> a "spandrel." Spandrel is an architectural term for the space  
> between an arch and its surrounding structure. The spandrel does  
> not, at least initially, serve any function; it is just a by- 
> product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin borrowed the term to refer  
> to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps religion is a  
> spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or theory  
> of mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.
>
> Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean  
> that it never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in  
> his classic book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the  
> biological origin of religious beliefs has no bearing on their  
> truth and value or lack thereof, because all our perceptions,  
> thoughts and beliefs?including the belief that religion is bunk?are  
> traceable to biology. A 1997 report in The Journal of  
> Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that religious  
> icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and Mohammed  
> may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this  
> diagnosis does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more  
> than the illness of an artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like  
> John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash detracts from his achievements. As  
> James insisted, religious visions must be judged by their fruits,  
> not their roots.
>
> And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically  
> purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity,  
> life and the entire universe.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Jun  4 17:24:49 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 17:24:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>

So if you don't see conspiracy theories all around, you have an impaired
theory of mind.

 

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:57 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?

 

Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from
Scientific American:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Observations <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations>  

  May 29, 2010


People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events in their
lives


By Karen Schrock 

BOSTON-Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher power or
supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of thinking, called
teleological thinking, is a by-product
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=why-people-believe
-what-they-do-09-04-10>  of social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we
developed the ability to understand one anothers' ideas and intentions. As a
result of this "theory
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=the-hormone-that-helps-y
ou-read-min>  of mind," some experts figure, we also tend to see intention
or purpose-a conscious mind-behind random or naturally occurring events. A
new study presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the
Association for <http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.cfm>
Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have
an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological way.

Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University Belfast, asked
27 people with Asperger's syndrome, a mild type of autism
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=broken-mirrors-a-theory-of
-autism>  that involves impaired social cognition, about significant events
in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse M. Bering
(author of the
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/bering-in-mind-blog/> "Bering in
Mind" blog and a frequent contributor to Scientific American MIND
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammind/> ), she asked them to
speculate about why these important events happened-for instance, why they
had gone through an illness or why they met a significant other. As compared
with 34 neurotypical people, those with Asperger's syndrome were
significantly less likely to invoke a teleological response-for example,
saying the event was meant to unfold in a particular way or explaining that
God had a hand in it. They were more likely to invoke a natural cause (such
as blaming an illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to) or to
give a descriptive response, explaining the event again in a different way.

In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with
Asperger's with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rational-atheism> . The
atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses such as
"there is no reason why; things just happen." The people with Asperger's
were significantly less likely to offer such anti-teleological explanations
than the atheists, indicating they were not engaged in teleological thinking
at all. (The atheists, in contrast, revealed themselves to be reasoning
teleologically, but then they rejected those thoughts.)

These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life events is a
result of our mind's focus on social thinking. People whose social cognition
is impaired-those with Asperger's, in this case-are less likely to see the
events in their lives as having happened for a reason. Heywood would like to
test the hypothesis further by working with people who have schizophrenia or
schizoid personalities. Some experts theorize that certain schizophrenia
symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive sense of
social reasoning. "I'd guess that they'd give lots of teleological answers;
more than neurotypical people, and certainly far more than people with
Asperger's," Heywood says.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Guest Blog <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/guest-blog>  

June 3, 2010


If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?


By John Horgan 

In a post
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-le
ss-likely-t-2010-05-29>  on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger Karen
Schrock manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious
rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with Asperger's,
a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in their lives to a
"higher power or supernatural force," Karen reports. Conversely, the
tendency of supposedly healthy people to see "intention or purpose" behind
random events may stem from an overactive "theory
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind>  of mind," the innate ability
to sense perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a
pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts. Who could
disagree?

The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as particularly
plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a similar hypothesis in
his book
<http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Clouds-New-Theory-Religion/dp/0195098919> Faces
in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (Oxford University Press, 1995),
which attributes religion to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of human
characteristics to nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism is an
inborn, adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our ancestors'
chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about the nature
of the world, guessing that some thing or event is humanlike or has a human
cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie explains.

If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an assailant,
he suffered no adverse consequences other than a moment's panic, Guthrie
argues. If the Neandertal mistook an assailant for a tree, the consequences
might have been dire. As natural selection bolstered our anthropomorphic
tendencies, Guthrie writes, they extended to all of nature, and we persuaded
ourselves that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show staged
by some master dramatist"-that is, God.

Another intriguing theory of religion-or, more specifically, religious or
mystical experiences-has been proposed by the radiologist Andrew Newberg
<http://www.andrewnewberg.com/why.asp> . Using single-photon emission
computed tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission
tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying Catholic nuns
and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some overlap between their
neural activity and that of sexually aroused subjects (scanned by other
researchers). The correlation makes sense, according to Newberg. Just as sex
involves a rhythmic activity, so do religious practices such as chanting,
dancing and repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious experiences
produce sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may be why
some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual language.

Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of Avila
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila>  of her vision of
Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point
there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at
times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he
seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love
of God."

The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated as what
the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call a "spandrel."
Spandrel is an architectural term for the space between an arch and its
surrounding structure. The spandrel does not, at least initially, serve any
function; it is just a by-product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin borrowed
the term to refer to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps religion
is a spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or theory of
mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.

Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean that it
never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in his classic book
The Varieties of Religious Experience, the biological origin of religious
beliefs has no bearing on their truth and value or lack thereof, because all
our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs-including the belief that religion is
bunk-are traceable to biology. A 1997
<http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/498>  report in
The Journal of Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that
religious icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and Mohammed
may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this diagnosis
does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more than the illness of an
artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash
detracts from his achievements. As James insisted, religious visions must be
judged by their fruits, not their roots.

And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically
purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity, life and the
entire universe. 


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun  4 17:50:07 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 00:50:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <3B423718-C503-425E-8131-6ECAE57E4FFC@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1784764836.325481275699007174.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Perhaps yes to the percieved "order" of things; more documented evidence to the contrary would help.

The very phrase "Percieved order" is rather in it'self an endictment of a diverse opinion.

We often ask each other for documentation. Documentation I like.

But very recently a very intelligent person on this list, said, "Obama is not hiding anything."

If I had dentures, I might have swallowed them. 

Obama himself admitted that his lawyers sealed his birth, academic, and records of professional activities in Chicago, clearly sealed and not accessible to the public.

And the thousands of references, in all kind of media, referencing records that have been sealed by Obama's lawyers, Yet in the face of overwhelming evidence, our learned friend said "Obama is not hiding anything."

I suppose the statement COULD hang on an alian definithion of the words "hiding" and "sealed".

To me if something is worth hiding, there must be a good reason to hide it. If there is nothing to hide, then why hide it. Is there fire where there is smoke?

If Obama did not hide anything, I want to see at least a smidgen of documentation. Just one tiny document will do. Pick any you want.

A GPA of 2.5 at Columbia isn't bad, but it would not have qualified him to attend Columbia. 

A 3.0 GPA at Columbia isn't bad, it's good, but it wouldn't have gotten him into Harvard, which requires a 3.75 GPA.

Attaining a GPA of 3.5 at Harvard, qualifying magna cum laud, was very good. He had to study hard, but (the catch) he had a tutor all the way, someone who knew what the tests would be about.

But none of those records are worth hiding. People were mostly interested in the registration records for each school, and how did he get into those prestigious schools, where never once being academically elligible, so qualified?

Obama never hid anything, but he did seal everything? Gee Whiz. Isn't that the same as hiding?

Symantics are funny that way.

Great day all

don


----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:01:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?

Most interesting! So more "socially cognizant" people are more likely  
to see a hidden "order" in random events, while schizophrenic people  
are likely to carry this perception of "order" to an extreme.
My ex-wife has noted that some of her schizophrenic clients see  
"hidden messages" in the license plates of passing cars, messages  
addressed specifically to them.
Perhaps this also explains the ornate theories of the more extreme  
conspirationists, and why they so stubbornly resist outside  
information that calls their perceived "order" into question.
Anyhow, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it...
Until something better comes along...
WW

On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from  
> Scientific American:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Observations
>   May 29, 2010
>
> People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events  
> in their lives
>
> By Karen Schrock
>
>
> BOSTON?Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher  
> power or supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind  
> of thinking, called teleological thinking, is a by-product of  
> social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we developed the  
> ability to understand one anothers? ideas and intentions. As a  
> result of this ?theory of mind,? some experts figure, we also tend  
> to see intention or purpose?a conscious mind?behind random or  
> naturally occurring events. A new study presented here in a poster  
> at the 22nd annual meeting of the Association for Psychological  
> Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have an  
> impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological  
> way.
>
> Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University  
> Belfast, asked 27 people with Asperger?s syndrome, a mild type of  
> autism that involves impaired social cognition, about significant  
> events in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse  
> M. Bering (author of the "Bering in Mind" blog and a frequent  
> contributor to Scientific American MIND), she asked them to  
> speculate about why these important events happened?for instance,  
> why they had gone through an illness or why they met a significant  
> other. As compared with 34 neurotypical people, those with  
> Asperger?s syndrome were significantly less likely to invoke a  
> teleological response?for example, saying the event was meant to  
> unfold in a particular way or explaining that God had a hand in it.  
> They were more likely to invoke a natural cause (such as blaming an  
> illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to) or to give a  
> descriptive response, explaining the event again in a different way.
>
> In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with  
> Asperger?s with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists. The  
> atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses  
> such as ?there is no reason why; things just happen.? The people  
> with Asperger?s were significantly less likely to offer such anti- 
> teleological explanations than the atheists, indicating they were  
> not engaged in teleological thinking at all. (The atheists, in  
> contrast, revealed themselves to be reasoning teleologically, but  
> then they rejected those thoughts.)
>
> These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life  
> events is a result of our mind?s focus on social thinking. People  
> whose social cognition is impaired?those with Asperger?s, in this  
> case?are less likely to see the events in their lives as having  
> happened for a reason. Heywood would like to test the hypothesis  
> further by working with people who have schizophrenia or schizoid  
> personalities. Some experts theorize that certain schizophrenia  
> symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive  
> sense of social reasoning. ?I?d guess that they?d give lots of  
> teleological answers; more than neurotypical people, and certainly  
> far more than people with Asperger?s,? Heywood says.
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Guest Blog
>
> June 3, 2010
>
> If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?
>
> By John Horgan
>
> In a post on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger Karen Schrock  
> manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious  
> rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with  
> Asperger's, a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in  
> their lives to a "higher power or supernatural force," Karen  
> reports. Conversely, the tendency of supposedly healthy people to  
> see "intention or purpose" behind random events may stem from an  
> overactive "theory of mind," the innate ability to sense  
> perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a  
> pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts.  
> Who could disagree?
>
> The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as  
> particularly plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a  
> similar hypothesis in his book Faces in the Clouds: A New Theory of  
> Religion (Oxford University Press, 1995), which attributes religion  
> to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of human characteristics to  
> nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism is an inborn,  
> adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our ancestors'  
> chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about  
> the nature of the world, guessing that some thing or event is  
> humanlike or has a human cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie  
> explains.
>
> If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an  
> assailant, he suffered no adverse consequences other than a  
> moment's panic, Guthrie argues. If the Neandertal mistook an  
> assailant for a tree, the consequences might have been dire. As  
> natural selection bolstered our anthropomorphic tendencies, Guthrie  
> writes, they extended to all of nature, and we persuaded ourselves  
> that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show staged by  
> some master dramatist"?that is, God.
>
> Another intriguing theory of religion?or, more specifically,  
> religious or mystical experiences?has been proposed by the  
> radiologist Andrew Newberg. Using single-photon emission computed  
> tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission  
> tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying  
> Catholic nuns and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some  
> overlap between their neural activity and that of sexually aroused  
> subjects (scanned by other researchers). The correlation makes  
> sense, according to Newberg. Just as sex involves a rhythmic  
> activity, so do religious practices such as chanting, dancing and  
> repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious experiences produce  
> sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may be why  
> some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual  
> language.
>
> Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of  
> Avila of her vision of Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of  
> gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He  
> appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to  
> pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw  
> them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God."
>
> The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated  
> as what the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call  
> a "spandrel." Spandrel is an architectural term for the space  
> between an arch and its surrounding structure. The spandrel does  
> not, at least initially, serve any function; it is just a by- 
> product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin borrowed the term to refer  
> to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps religion is a  
> spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or theory  
> of mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.
>
> Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean  
> that it never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in  
> his classic book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the  
> biological origin of religious beliefs has no bearing on their  
> truth and value or lack thereof, because all our perceptions,  
> thoughts and beliefs?including the belief that religion is bunk?are  
> traceable to biology. A 1997 report in The Journal of  
> Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that religious  
> icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and Mohammed  
> may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this  
> diagnosis does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more  
> than the illness of an artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like  
> John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash detracts from his achievements. As  
> James insisted, religious visions must be judged by their fruits,  
> not their roots.
>
> And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically  
> purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity,  
> life and the entire universe.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun  4 18:07:34 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 01:07:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
Message-ID: <29143930.329891275700054746.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Very good Steven, but I bet they will be seeing conspiracies themselves after they read what I just wrote.

My question is how can a person with their head in the sand, also be informed in the same time?

Great day all.

don

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 00:24:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?

So if you don't see conspiracy theories all around, you have an impaired
theory of mind.

 

From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:57 AM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?

 

Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from
Scientific American:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Observations <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations>  

  May 29, 2010


People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events in their
lives


By Karen Schrock 

BOSTON-Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher power or
supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of thinking, called
teleological thinking, is a by-product
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=why-people-believe
-what-they-do-09-04-10>  of social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we
developed the ability to understand one anothers' ideas and intentions. As a
result of this "theory
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=the-hormone-that-helps-y
ou-read-min>  of mind," some experts figure, we also tend to see intention
or purpose-a conscious mind-behind random or naturally occurring events. A
new study presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the
Association for <http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.cfm>
Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have
an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological way.

Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University Belfast, asked
27 people with Asperger's syndrome, a mild type of autism
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=broken-mirrors-a-theory-of
-autism>  that involves impaired social cognition, about significant events
in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse M. Bering
(author of the
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/bering-in-mind-blog/> "Bering in
Mind" blog and a frequent contributor to Scientific American MIND
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammind/> ), she asked them to
speculate about why these important events happened-for instance, why they
had gone through an illness or why they met a significant other. As compared
with 34 neurotypical people, those with Asperger's syndrome were
significantly less likely to invoke a teleological response-for example,
saying the event was meant to unfold in a particular way or explaining that
God had a hand in it. They were more likely to invoke a natural cause (such
as blaming an illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to) or to
give a descriptive response, explaining the event again in a different way.

In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with
Asperger's with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rational-atheism> . The
atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses such as
"there is no reason why; things just happen." The people with Asperger's
were significantly less likely to offer such anti-teleological explanations
than the atheists, indicating they were not engaged in teleological thinking
at all. (The atheists, in contrast, revealed themselves to be reasoning
teleologically, but then they rejected those thoughts.)

These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life events is a
result of our mind's focus on social thinking. People whose social cognition
is impaired-those with Asperger's, in this case-are less likely to see the
events in their lives as having happened for a reason. Heywood would like to
test the hypothesis further by working with people who have schizophrenia or
schizoid personalities. Some experts theorize that certain schizophrenia
symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive sense of
social reasoning. "I'd guess that they'd give lots of teleological answers;
more than neurotypical people, and certainly far more than people with
Asperger's," Heywood says.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Guest Blog <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/guest-blog>  

June 3, 2010


If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?


By John Horgan 

In a post
<http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-le
ss-likely-t-2010-05-29>  on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger Karen
Schrock manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious
rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with Asperger's,
a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in their lives to a
"higher power or supernatural force," Karen reports. Conversely, the
tendency of supposedly healthy people to see "intention or purpose" behind
random events may stem from an overactive "theory
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind>  of mind," the innate ability
to sense perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a
pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts. Who could
disagree?

The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as particularly
plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a similar hypothesis in
his book
<http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Clouds-New-Theory-Religion/dp/0195098919> Faces
in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (Oxford University Press, 1995),
which attributes religion to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of human
characteristics to nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism is an
inborn, adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our ancestors'
chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about the nature
of the world, guessing that some thing or event is humanlike or has a human
cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie explains.

If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an assailant,
he suffered no adverse consequences other than a moment's panic, Guthrie
argues. If the Neandertal mistook an assailant for a tree, the consequences
might have been dire. As natural selection bolstered our anthropomorphic
tendencies, Guthrie writes, they extended to all of nature, and we persuaded
ourselves that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show staged
by some master dramatist"-that is, God.

Another intriguing theory of religion-or, more specifically, religious or
mystical experiences-has been proposed by the radiologist Andrew Newberg
<http://www.andrewnewberg.com/why.asp> . Using single-photon emission
computed tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission
tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying Catholic nuns
and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some overlap between their
neural activity and that of sexually aroused subjects (scanned by other
researchers). The correlation makes sense, according to Newberg. Just as sex
involves a rhythmic activity, so do religious practices such as chanting,
dancing and repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious experiences
produce sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may be why
some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual language.

Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of Avila
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila>  of her vision of
Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point
there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at
times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he
seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love
of God."

The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated as what
the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call a "spandrel."
Spandrel is an architectural term for the space between an arch and its
surrounding structure. The spandrel does not, at least initially, serve any
function; it is just a by-product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin borrowed
the term to refer to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps religion
is a spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or theory of
mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.

Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean that it
never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in his classic book
The Varieties of Religious Experience, the biological origin of religious
beliefs has no bearing on their truth and value or lack thereof, because all
our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs-including the belief that religion is
bunk-are traceable to biology. A 1997
<http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/498>  report in
The Journal of Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that
religious icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and Mohammed
may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this diagnosis
does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more than the illness of an
artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash
detracts from his achievements. As James insisted, religious visions must be
judged by their fruits, not their roots.

And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically
purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity, life and the
entire universe. 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 18:31:34 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 18:31:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Memorial lists
In-Reply-To: <EA98B472-99FA-4E49-93AA-F697ED56EF7A@verizon.net>
References: <EA98B472-99FA-4E49-93AA-F697ED56EF7A@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C09A8F6.8060402@gmail.com>

I know I'm a week behind, but if it hasn't be mentioned already McKinley 
and Garfield were also assassinated in office as well.

Adam

David Morelli wrote:
> As we lead up to Memorial Day, perhaps it would be worthwhile to list those who have given their life in service to this country.  And it might be worthwhile to include those whose lives were spent giving service to this country.  It might also include those who have suffered grievous injury in their service as well.  Some may be defined by one single event, others by a life of service.  Living politicians likely would not generally be appropriate, IMHO.
>
> Perhaps, Don or others with good research skills could generate a list of the Washington County military casualties.  Others may wish to include first responders who have given their all.  Perhaps the list would include those who have "collected the marbles" in their careers in education, medicine, public service, etc.
>
> I would offer as seeds:
>
> The founding fathers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and all.
>
> The Presidents who have died through assassination:  Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, 
>
> The soldiers who stormed Normandy, Anzio, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, Hue, or defended at Breeds Hill, Gettysburg, the Marne, the Bulge, KheSahn, etc.
>
> The sailor who died at Pearl Harbor, Midway, Coral Sea, and others.
>
> The aviators who carried the air wars.
>
> Rosa Parks
>
> Chief Joseph
>
> Martin Luther King
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 18:53:05 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 18:53:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com> <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>

The banking crisis letter has been documented by Raymond Moley when 
President elect Roosevelt showed him the letter in February of 1933.

To be fair to Roosevelt, I wasn't implying that he was involved with 
banking scandals but mostly oblivious to it. Some of the worst banking 
scandals were occurring in New York during his term as governor. After 
he appointed Robert Moses to investigate this he basically disregarded 
Moses's report. It's been commented on that Roosevelt did not have a 
good understanding of what was going on with banking in New York. That 
seems to have followed him to the white house.

As for being a "Foxian" conspiracy nut and attack anyone who is not a 
"R", you clearly have not been reading any of my posts over the past 
five months.

Adam

Bob Browning wrote:
> Thanks for the insight Adam, but I shouldn't have had to spend the 
> time finding the attribution for your assertion ! ! Also, the final 
> part of your post imputes wrong-doing to Roosevelt. On what do you 
> base that? Or are you just a Foxian conspiracy nut who always imputes 
> wrong intent to anyone who is not an R??
> LOL
>
> But, then again, maybe DonK has made me gun shy!!
>
> bob "look it up yourself" browning
>
> /*PS to all:* B//efore hitting "Reply" or "Reply All", p//lease help 
> reduce the listserv's needed bandwidth //by taking a few moments and 
> deleting all or part of the most recent message (keeping all or part 
> of the most recent posting as needed to give context to your 
> response), and except possibly for one or two of the preceding 
> messages, but only if needed to further provide context to the message 
> to which you are replying. More importantly, in order to avoid 
> unintended unsubscribes, please also delete the listserv subscription 
> and unsubscription information footers. Thank you!! b/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> >From Newsweek -
>
> http://www.newsweek.com/2008/11/04/handover-horror-stories.html
>
> *Handover Horror Stories*
>
>
>     Winning is half the battle. A history of bumpy transitions.
>
> by Dan Brillman <http://www.newsweek.com/authors/dan-brillman.html>
>
> November 05, 2008
>
> *1932-33*
>
> For the first 150 years of the presidency, the transition took place 
> between November and the Inauguration in early March, primarily to 
> account for slow travel time. But as communication and transportation 
> improved, Inauguration Day stayed the same, leaving a lame-duck 
> administration especially lame for four months.
>
> In '32 Herbert Hoover was the lame duck, and for months Franklin 
> Roosevelt distanced himself from all things Hoover?at the time an 
> expedient maneuver, but one that may well have cost the country. 
> Hoover had set in motion government plans to reverse the economic 
> crisis, hoping the appearance of solidarity between the actual and 
> incoming administrations would be a financial tonic. But he was 
> already seen as politically toxic, and Roosevelt had won by steering 
> clear of him. The Democrat rejected Hoover's plea to address the 
> European end of the crisis, calling the war-debt issue the 
> Republican's "baby." In January and February 1933, banks were failing 
> en masse and Roosevelt-Hoover meetings were fruitless 
> standoffs?described by historian Herbert Feis as a "naval engagement 
> on a foggy night between two opposed fleets ? the proponents were 
> shooting at shadows and hitting air." So who gets the blame for the 
> depression? Historians have quarreled over the question, but Hoover 
> has borne most of the blame. The economic inertia during the long, 
> contentious winter of 1932-33 did not help. Ironically, the 20th 
> Amendment shortening the transition time to 11 weeks was ratified in 
> late January, but didn't go into practical effect until 1937.
>
> *********************************************************
>
> On 6/2/2010 8:41 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>> Roosevelt received a letter from Hoover days before the inauguration 
>> asking him to help calm people since banks were closing at an alarming 
>> rate.  He held the letter for days not bothering to respond to Hoover.  
>> This caused hundreds if not thousands of additional banks to close.  
>> Helping an outgoing president had been done before by Cleveland in 1893 
>> where the banks were in a similar situation and he came forward to help 
>> Harrison.  I also remember reading about a big banking scandal when 
>> Roosevelt was governor of New York during the early 30's.
>>
>> Either Roosevelt didn't understand what was happening or he wanted it to 
>> get worse before he took office.  I'll leave that up to you.
>>
>> Adam
>>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:03:05 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:03:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill
	or	two.
In-Reply-To: <01dd01cb034a$6f725c20$4e571460$@com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com> <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
	<01dd01cb034a$6f725c20$4e571460$@com>
Message-ID: <4C09B059.2000901@gmail.com>

It wasn't a scientific poll otherwise I would have listed a source.  I 
have talked to people from Kentucky, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and 
other coal states.  They support this.  It goes across the political 
spectrum from Democrat to Libertarian to Republican.  I've tried to 
argue with them about the damage, runoff, etc.  I don't support it.  But 
then again I don't live in that part of the country.

The point I am trying to make is that it's sometimes hard to try and 
understand why people will support something like this.  Sometimes you 
have to look outside your bubble to try and grasp why people disagree 
with you.  I don't like doing it, but I try as much as I can.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Adam,
>
>   
>> From: Adam Mayer
>>
>> They did forget another statistic, at least 90% of the people
>> who live there support this. 
>>     
>
> Do you have a link to a source that documents that statistic?
>
> I found a few surveys, but none that indicated any percentage in the
> majority that supported it, save one, though it was nowhere near the
> percentage you suggest above.
>
> 1998 - 53% against, only 29% for, 18% undecided or no opinion
> http://www.sundaygazettemail.com/News/MiningtheMountains/200807030412
>
> 2004 - Nationwide survey where an overwhelming majority did not support it.
> http://www.appalachian-center.org/poll_results/wv_mtr_poll.pdf
>
> 2008 - Nationwide survey where an overwhelming majority did not support it.
> When broken down by region, the South was 59% against it.
> http://www.earthjustice.org/library/references/mtr-presentation.pdf
>
> 2009 - Poll on a Kentucky News Site where only 44% support it and 55% oppose
> it.
> http://www.wkyt.com/polls?pollID=41853852
>
> I can't find a date referencing the poll here, but they indicate the numbers
> are 49% opposed, 40% for, and 12% don't know.  I looked for the poll on the
> site they reference, but was unsuccessful.
> http://www.wvrivers.org/issues/mountaintopremoval/mountaintopremoval.html
>
> The closest I could find in favor of it, though not technically, was the
> following poll conducted in West Virginia:
> http://www.statejournal.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=66285
>
> In this poll 72% said it should not be illegal.  In that same poll, 87% said
> that the coal industry is very important to the West Virginia economy.  So,
> they could be indicating that it shouldn't be illegal because of its
> importance to the local economy.  However, the poll did not ask the question
> of whether or not they were opposed to it or not, merely they're opinion on
> the legality.  The question of legality juxtaposed against the question of
> economics could be found to increase the likelihood their response about
> legality had more to do with economics than actually being for the practice.
>
> I suspect that any poll that finds that the majority are in favor of
> mountaintop removal will make use of this awkward positioning of the
> question about mountaintop removal and the importance of coal mining to the
> economy.  I also suspect that the only segment of the citizenry that's for
> it in the majority would be those that are employed by it.  However, I
> highly doubt that the citizens of the state of Kentucky as a whole are for
> it in the majority.
>
> I've done a lot of unnecessary legwork to attempt to find data that helps
> make or break your claim.  Can you supply a link to your source for your
> claim that "90% of the people who live there support this"?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:07:04 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:07:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
Message-ID: <4C09B148.3020601@gmail.com>

Who told you to say that?  :-P

Adam

Steven wrote:
> So if you don't see conspiracy theories all around, you have an impaired
> theory of mind.
>
>  
>
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
>
>  
>
> Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from
> Scientific American:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Observations <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations>  
>
>   May 29, 2010
>
>
> People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events in their
> lives
>
>
> By Karen Schrock 
>
> BOSTON-Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher power or
> supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of thinking, called
> teleological thinking, is a by-product
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=why-people-believe
> -what-they-do-09-04-10>  of social cognition. As our ancestors evolved, we
> developed the ability to understand one anothers' ideas and intentions. As a
> result of this "theory
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=the-hormone-that-helps-y
> ou-read-min>  of mind," some experts figure, we also tend to see intention
> or purpose-a conscious mind-behind random or naturally occurring events. A
> new study presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the
> Association for <http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.cfm>
> Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who may have
> an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a teleological way.
>
> Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University Belfast, asked
> 27 people with Asperger's syndrome, a mild type of autism
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=broken-mirrors-a-theory-of
> -autism>  that involves impaired social cognition, about significant events
> in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse M. Bering
> (author of the
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/bering-in-mind-blog/> "Bering in
> Mind" blog and a frequent contributor to Scientific American MIND
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammind/> ), she asked them to
> speculate about why these important events happened-for instance, why they
> had gone through an illness or why they met a significant other. As compared
> with 34 neurotypical people, those with Asperger's syndrome were
> significantly less likely to invoke a teleological response-for example,
> saying the event was meant to unfold in a particular way or explaining that
> God had a hand in it. They were more likely to invoke a natural cause (such
> as blaming an illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to) or to
> give a descriptive response, explaining the event again in a different way.
>
> In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with
> Asperger's with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rational-atheism> . The
> atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses such as
> "there is no reason why; things just happen." The people with Asperger's
> were significantly less likely to offer such anti-teleological explanations
> than the atheists, indicating they were not engaged in teleological thinking
> at all. (The atheists, in contrast, revealed themselves to be reasoning
> teleologically, but then they rejected those thoughts.)
>
> These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life events is a
> result of our mind's focus on social thinking. People whose social cognition
> is impaired-those with Asperger's, in this case-are less likely to see the
> events in their lives as having happened for a reason. Heywood would like to
> test the hypothesis further by working with people who have schizophrenia or
> schizoid personalities. Some experts theorize that certain schizophrenia
> symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive sense of
> social reasoning. "I'd guess that they'd give lots of teleological answers;
> more than neurotypical people, and certainly far more than people with
> Asperger's," Heywood says.
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Guest Blog <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/guest-blog>  
>
> June 3, 2010
>
>
> If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?
>
>
> By John Horgan 
>
> In a post
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-le
> ss-likely-t-2010-05-29>  on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger Karen
> Schrock manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious
> rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with Asperger's,
> a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in their lives to a
> "higher power or supernatural force," Karen reports. Conversely, the
> tendency of supposedly healthy people to see "intention or purpose" behind
> random events may stem from an overactive "theory
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind>  of mind," the innate ability
> to sense perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a
> pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts. Who could
> disagree?
>
> The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as particularly
> plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a similar hypothesis in
> his book
> <http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Clouds-New-Theory-Religion/dp/0195098919> Faces
> in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (Oxford University Press, 1995),
> which attributes religion to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of human
> characteristics to nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism is an
> inborn, adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our ancestors'
> chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about the nature
> of the world, guessing that some thing or event is humanlike or has a human
> cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie explains.
>
> If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an assailant,
> he suffered no adverse consequences other than a moment's panic, Guthrie
> argues. If the Neandertal mistook an assailant for a tree, the consequences
> might have been dire. As natural selection bolstered our anthropomorphic
> tendencies, Guthrie writes, they extended to all of nature, and we persuaded
> ourselves that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show staged
> by some master dramatist"-that is, God.
>
> Another intriguing theory of religion-or, more specifically, religious or
> mystical experiences-has been proposed by the radiologist Andrew Newberg
> <http://www.andrewnewberg.com/why.asp> . Using single-photon emission
> computed tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission
> tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying Catholic nuns
> and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some overlap between their
> neural activity and that of sexually aroused subjects (scanned by other
> researchers). The correlation makes sense, according to Newberg. Just as sex
> involves a rhythmic activity, so do religious practices such as chanting,
> dancing and repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious experiences
> produce sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may be why
> some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual language.
>
> Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of Avila
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila>  of her vision of
> Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point
> there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at
> times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he
> seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love
> of God."
>
> The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated as what
> the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call a "spandrel."
> Spandrel is an architectural term for the space between an arch and its
> surrounding structure. The spandrel does not, at least initially, serve any
> function; it is just a by-product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin borrowed
> the term to refer to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps religion
> is a spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or theory of
> mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.
>
> Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean that it
> never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in his classic book
> The Varieties of Religious Experience, the biological origin of religious
> beliefs has no bearing on their truth and value or lack thereof, because all
> our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs-including the belief that religion is
> bunk-are traceable to biology. A 1997
> <http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/498>  report in
> The Journal of Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that
> religious icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and Mohammed
> may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this diagnosis
> does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more than the illness of an
> artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash
> detracts from his achievements. As James insisted, religious visions must be
> judged by their fruits, not their roots.
>
> And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically
> purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity, life and the
> entire universe. 
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun  4 20:11:21 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 20:11:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
Message-ID: <25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com>

Yep! Guess I'm jest a dern mental dee-fective, on account I don't see  
a nonexistent "order" in random events.
Shucks. There goes my chances for a career in talk radio. ;^)
WW

On Jun 4, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Steven wrote:

> So if you don't see conspiracy theories all around, you have an  
> impaired
> theory of mind.
>
>
>
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
>
>
>
> Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from
> Scientific American:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Observations <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations>
>
>   May 29, 2010
>
>
> People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events  
> in their
> lives
>
>
> By Karen Schrock
>
> BOSTON-Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher  
> power or
> supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of  
> thinking, called
> teleological thinking, is a by-product
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=why- 
> people-believe
> -what-they-do-09-04-10>  of social cognition. As our ancestors  
> evolved, we
> developed the ability to understand one anothers' ideas and  
> intentions. As a
> result of this "theory
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=the-hormone- 
> that-helps-y
> ou-read-min>  of mind," some experts figure, we also tend to see  
> intention
> or purpose-a conscious mind-behind random or naturally occurring  
> events. A
> new study presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the
> Association for <http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.cfm>
> Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who  
> may have
> an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a  
> teleological way.
>
> Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University  
> Belfast, asked
> 27 people with Asperger's syndrome, a mild type of autism
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=broken-mirrors-a- 
> theory-of
> -autism>  that involves impaired social cognition, about  
> significant events
> in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse M. Bering
> (author of the
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/bering-in-mind-blog/>  
> "Bering in
> Mind" blog and a frequent contributor to Scientific American MIND
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammind/> ), she asked them to
> speculate about why these important events happened-for instance,  
> why they
> had gone through an illness or why they met a significant other. As  
> compared
> with 34 neurotypical people, those with Asperger's syndrome were
> significantly less likely to invoke a teleological response-for  
> example,
> saying the event was meant to unfold in a particular way or  
> explaining that
> God had a hand in it. They were more likely to invoke a natural  
> cause (such
> as blaming an illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to)  
> or to
> give a descriptive response, explaining the event again in a  
> different way.
>
> In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with
> Asperger's with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rational- 
> atheism> . The
> atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses  
> such as
> "there is no reason why; things just happen." The people with  
> Asperger's
> were significantly less likely to offer such anti-teleological  
> explanations
> than the atheists, indicating they were not engaged in teleological  
> thinking
> at all. (The atheists, in contrast, revealed themselves to be  
> reasoning
> teleologically, but then they rejected those thoughts.)
>
> These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life  
> events is a
> result of our mind's focus on social thinking. People whose social  
> cognition
> is impaired-those with Asperger's, in this case-are less likely to  
> see the
> events in their lives as having happened for a reason. Heywood  
> would like to
> test the hypothesis further by working with people who have  
> schizophrenia or
> schizoid personalities. Some experts theorize that certain  
> schizophrenia
> symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive  
> sense of
> social reasoning. "I'd guess that they'd give lots of teleological  
> answers;
> more than neurotypical people, and certainly far more than people with
> Asperger's," Heywood says.
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Guest Blog <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/guest-blog>
>
> June 3, 2010
>
>
> If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?
>
>
> By John Horgan
>
> In a post
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with- 
> aspergers-le
> ss-likely-t-2010-05-29>  on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger  
> Karen
> Schrock manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious
> rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with  
> Asperger's,
> a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in their lives  
> to a
> "higher power or supernatural force," Karen reports. Conversely, the
> tendency of supposedly healthy people to see "intention or purpose"  
> behind
> random events may stem from an overactive "theory
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind>  of mind," the innate  
> ability
> to sense perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a
> pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts.  
> Who could
> disagree?
>
> The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as particularly
> plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a similar  
> hypothesis in
> his book
> <http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Clouds-New-Theory-Religion/dp/ 
> 0195098919> Faces
> in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (Oxford University Press,  
> 1995),
> which attributes religion to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of  
> human
> characteristics to nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism  
> is an
> inborn, adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our  
> ancestors'
> chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about  
> the nature
> of the world, guessing that some thing or event is humanlike or has  
> a human
> cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie explains.
>
> If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an  
> assailant,
> he suffered no adverse consequences other than a moment's panic,  
> Guthrie
> argues. If the Neandertal mistook an assailant for a tree, the  
> consequences
> might have been dire. As natural selection bolstered our  
> anthropomorphic
> tendencies, Guthrie writes, they extended to all of nature, and we  
> persuaded
> ourselves that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show  
> staged
> by some master dramatist"-that is, God.
>
> Another intriguing theory of religion-or, more specifically,  
> religious or
> mystical experiences-has been proposed by the radiologist Andrew  
> Newberg
> <http://www.andrewnewberg.com/why.asp> . Using single-photon emission
> computed tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission
> tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying  
> Catholic nuns
> and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some overlap  
> between their
> neural activity and that of sexually aroused subjects (scanned by  
> other
> researchers). The correlation makes sense, according to Newberg.  
> Just as sex
> involves a rhythmic activity, so do religious practices such as  
> chanting,
> dancing and repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious  
> experiences
> produce sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may  
> be why
> some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual  
> language.
>
> Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of  
> Avila
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila>  of her vision of
> Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's  
> point
> there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting  
> it at
> times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew  
> it out, he
> seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a  
> great love
> of God."
>
> The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated  
> as what
> the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call a  
> "spandrel."
> Spandrel is an architectural term for the space between an arch and  
> its
> surrounding structure. The spandrel does not, at least initially,  
> serve any
> function; it is just a by-product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin  
> borrowed
> the term to refer to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps  
> religion
> is a spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or  
> theory of
> mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.
>
> Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean  
> that it
> never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in his  
> classic book
> The Varieties of Religious Experience, the biological origin of  
> religious
> beliefs has no bearing on their truth and value or lack thereof,  
> because all
> our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs-including the belief that  
> religion is
> bunk-are traceable to biology. A 1997
> <http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/498>   
> report in
> The Journal of Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that
> religious icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and  
> Mohammed
> may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this  
> diagnosis
> does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more than the  
> illness of an
> artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash
> detracts from his achievements. As James insisted, religious  
> visions must be
> judged by their fruits, not their roots.
>
> And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically
> purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity,  
> life and the
> entire universe.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun  4 20:24:44 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 20:24:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
	<25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367>

Don't write yourself down Walt. The other side needs talk show hosts too.

<GRIN> Had to put that in because we cannot see faces when we comment.

Don

PS: I have even hear a couple of people say Obama is doing a good job, but
they provided no documentation of anything good he has done. 

Is it only a conspiracy that says he is a bad president?
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Walt Wentz
Date: 6/4/2010 8:10:41 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
 
Yep! Guess I'm jest a dern mental dee-fective, on account I don't see
a nonexistent "order" in random events.
Shucks. There goes my chances for a career in talk radio. ;^)
WW
 
On Jun 4, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Steven wrote:
 
> So if you don't see conspiracy theories all around, you have an
> impaired
> theory of mind.
>
>
>
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Bob Browning
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 11:57 AM
> To: Grovenet
> Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
>
>
>
> Two thought provoking blogs (i. e., more swill from Bob), both from
> Scientific American:
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Observations <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations>
>
>   May 29, 2010
>
>
> People with Asperger's less likely to see purpose behind the events
> in their
> lives
>
>
> By Karen Schrock
>
> BOSTON-Why do we often attribute events in our lives to a higher
> power or
> supernatural force? Some psychologists believe this kind of
> thinking, called
> teleological thinking, is a by-product
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=why-
> people-believe
> -what-they-do-09-04-10>  of social cognition. As our ancestors
> evolved, we
> developed the ability to understand one anothers' ideas and
> intentions. As a
> result of this "theory
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=the-hormone-
> that-helps-y
> ou-read-min>  of mind," some experts figure, we also tend to see
> intention
> or purpose-a conscious mind-behind random or naturally occurring
> events. A
> new study presented here in a poster at the 22nd annual meeting of the
> Association for <http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.cfm>
> Psychological Science supports this idea, showing that people who
> may have
> an impaired theory of mind are less likely to think in a
> teleological way.
>
> Bethany T. Heywood, a graduate student at Queens University
> Belfast, asked
> 27 people with Asperger's syndrome, a mild type of autism
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=broken-mirrors-a-
> theory-of
> -autism>  that involves impaired social cognition, about
> significant events
> in their lives. Working with experimental psychologist Jesse M. Bering
> (author of the
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/bering-in-mind-blog/>
> "Bering in
> Mind" blog and a frequent contributor to Scientific American MIND
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammind/> ), she asked them to
> speculate about why these important events happened-for instance,
> why they
> had gone through an illness or why they met a significant other. As
> compared
> with 34 neurotypical people, those with Asperger's syndrome were
> significantly less likely to invoke a teleological response-for
> example,
> saying the event was meant to unfold in a particular way or
> explaining that
> God had a hand in it. They were more likely to invoke a natural
> cause (such
> as blaming an illness on a virus they thought they were exposed to)
> or to
> give a descriptive response, explaining the event again in a
> different way.
>
> In a second experiment, Heywood and Bering compared 27 people with
> Asperger's with 34 neurotypical people who are atheists
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rational-
> atheism> . The
> atheists, as expected, often invoked anti-teleological responses
> such as
> "there is no reason why; things just happen." The people with
> Asperger's
> were significantly less likely to offer such anti-teleological
> explanations
> than the atheists, indicating they were not engaged in teleological
> thinking
> at all. (The atheists, in contrast, revealed themselves to be
> reasoning
> teleologically, but then they rejected those thoughts.)
>
> These results support the idea that seeing purpose behind life
> events is a
> result of our mind's focus on social thinking. People whose social
> cognition
> is impaired-those with Asperger's, in this case-are less likely to
> see the
> events in their lives as having happened for a reason. Heywood
> would like to
> test the hypothesis further by working with people who have
> schizophrenia or
> schizoid personalities. Some experts theorize that certain
> schizophrenia
> symptoms (for instance, paranoia) arise in part from a hyperactive
> sense of
> social reasoning. "I'd guess that they'd give lots of teleological
> answers;
> more than neurotypical people, and certainly far more than people with
> Asperger's," Heywood says.
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Guest Blog <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/guest-blog>
>
> June 3, 2010
>
>
> If religion is a side effect of sex, does that mean God doesn't exist?
>
>
> By John Horgan
>
> In a post
> <http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-
> aspergers-le
> ss-likely-t-2010-05-29>  on Asperger's syndrome, my fellow blogger
> Karen
> Schrock manages to knock both religious believers and nonreligious
> rationalists in just a few paragraphs. Kudos, Karen! People with
> Asperger's,
> a mild form of autism, tend not to attribute events in their lives
> to a
> "higher power or supernatural force," Karen reports. Conversely, the
> tendency of supposedly healthy people to see "intention or purpose"
> behind
> random events may stem from an overactive "theory
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind>  of mind," the innate
> ability
> to sense perceptions, emotions and intentions in others. Faith is a
> pathology, and so is the lack thereof. Basically, we're all nuts.
> Who could
> disagree?
>
> The linkage of religion to theory of mind strikes me as particularly
> plausible. The anthropologist Stewart Guthrie floats a similar
> hypothesis in
> his book
> <http://www.amazon.com/Faces-Clouds-New-Theory-Religion/dp/
> 0195098919> Faces
> in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (Oxford University Press,
> 1995),
> which attributes religion to anthropomorphism, "the attribution of
> human
> characteristics to nonhuman things or events." Our anthropomorphism
> is an
> inborn, adaptive trait, Guthrie contends, which enhanced our
> ancestors'
> chances of survival. "[I]n the face of chronic uncertainty about
> the nature
> of the world, guessing that some thing or event is humanlike or has
> a human
> cause constitutes a good bet," Guthrie explains.
>
> If a Neandertal mistook a tree creaking outside his cave for an
> assailant,
> he suffered no adverse consequences other than a moment's panic,
> Guthrie
> argues. If the Neandertal mistook an assailant for a tree, the
> consequences
> might have been dire. As natural selection bolstered our
> anthropomorphic
> tendencies, Guthrie writes, they extended to all of nature, and we
> persuaded
> ourselves that "the entire world of our experience is merely a show
> staged
> by some master dramatist"-that is, God.
>
> Another intriguing theory of religion-or, more specifically,
> religious or
> mystical experiences-has been proposed by the radiologist Andrew
> Newberg
> <http://www.andrewnewberg.com/why.asp> . Using single-photon emission
> computed tomography, a variant of the better-known positron emission
> tomography, or PET, Newberg has scanned the brains of praying
> Catholic nuns
> and meditating Buddhist monks, and he has found some overlap
> between their
> neural activity and that of sexually aroused subjects (scanned by
> other
> researchers). The correlation makes sense, according to Newberg.
> Just as sex
> involves a rhythmic activity, so do religious practices such as
> chanting,
> dancing and repetition of a mantra. Like orgasms, religious
> experiences
> produce sensations of bliss, self-transcendence and unity; that may
> be why
> some mystics describe their raptures with romantic or even sexual
> language.
>
> Consider this description by the 16th-century nun Saint Teresa of
> Avila
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_of_%C3%81vila>  of her vision of
> Christ: "I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's
> point
> there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting
> it at
> times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew
> it out, he
> seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a
> great love
> of God."
>
> The theories of Guthrie and Newberg imply that religion originated
> as what
> the biologists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Lewontin call a
> "spandrel."
> Spandrel is an architectural term for the space between an arch and
> its
> surrounding structure. The spandrel does not, at least initially,
> serve any
> function; it is just a by-product of the arch. Gould and Lewontin
> borrowed
> the term to refer to accidental by-products of evolution. Perhaps
> religion
> is a spandrel piggybacking on adaptations such as the orgasm or
> theory of
> mind, both of which serve obvious biological purposes.
>
> Now, just because a trait originated as a spandrel does not mean
> that it
> never acquires any value. As William James pointed out in his
> classic book
> The Varieties of Religious Experience, the biological origin of
> religious
> beliefs has no bearing on their truth and value or lack thereof,
> because all
> our perceptions, thoughts and beliefs-including the belief that
> religion is
> bunk-are traceable to biology. A 1997
> <http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/498>
> report in
> The Journal of Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences suggests that
> religious icons such as Saint Teresa, Saint Paul, Joan of Arc and
> Mohammed
> may have suffered from epilepsy or other brain disorders. But this
> diagnosis
> does not invalidate the faithful's insights, any more than the
> illness of an
> artist like Van Gogh or a scientist like John (A Beautiful Mind) Nash
> detracts from his achievements. As James insisted, religious
> visions must be
> judged by their fruits, not their roots.
>
> And of course, if a spandrel is defined as something intrinsically
> purposeless, then everything is a spandrel, including humanity,
> life and the
> entire universe.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 21:13:43 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:13:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
	<25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com>
	<4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>


>
>
>
> PS: I have even hear a couple of people say Obama is doing a good  
> job, but
> they provided no documentation of anything good he has done.

I guess if you didn't like Daniel Pearl or you don't care about  
veterans health care or tax breaks  or national defense or things  
like that you'll not like any of these.  Of course these are not all  
of them. This list leaves out the Lily Ledbetter act, but heck only  
about half of the population belongs to the female gender and it left  
a raw taste when the conservatives on the court said that women had  
to be mind readers to defend their rights.  But heck who cares about  
fairness when you can just say that there is no documentation to  
support anything Obama has done. And then expect others to do your  
investigation for you.....
Daniel Pearl Freedom of the Press Act
Signed: Monday, May 17, 2010
Caregivers and Veterans Omnibus Health Services Act of 2010
Signed: Friday, April 23, 2010
Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010
Signed: Tuesday, March 30, 2010
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
Signed: Tuesday, March 23, 2010
Hiring Incentives to Restore Employment (HIRE) Act
Signed: Thursday, March 18, 2010
Emergency Aid to American Survivors of the Haiti Earthquake Act
Signed: Wednesday, January 27, 2010
2009 Tax Breaks for Haiti Donations
Signed: Friday, January 22, 2010
Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act of 2009
Signed: Friday, October 30, 2009
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010
Signed: Wednesday, October 28, 2009
Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act
Signed: Thursday, October 22, 2009
Cash For Clunkers Extension
Signed: Thursday, August 6, 2009
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
Signed: Monday, June 22, 2009


From edavie at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 21:48:01 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:48:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
	<25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com>
	<4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367>
	<20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4A7017F05E5547EA86A0F3C198524CD8@EdsPortable>

Good for you, Katie!
Ed


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?


>
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: I have even hear a couple of people say Obama is doing a good
>> job, but
>> they provided no documentation of anything good he has done.
>
> I guess if you didn't like Daniel Pearl or you don't care about
> veterans health care or tax breaks  or national defense or things
> like that you'll not like any of these.  Of course these are not all
> of them. This list leaves out the Lily Ledbetter act, but heck only
> about half of the population belongs to the female gender and it left
> a raw taste when the conservatives on the court said that women had
> to be mind readers to defend their rights.  But heck who cares about
> fairness when you can just say that there is no documentation to
> support anything Obama has done. And then expect others to do your
> investigation for you.....
> Daniel Pearl Freedom of the Press Act
> Signed: Monday, May 17, 2010
> Caregivers and Veterans Omnibus Health Services Act of 2010
> Signed: Friday, April 23, 2010
> Health Care and Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010
> Signed: Tuesday, March 30, 2010
> Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
> Signed: Tuesday, March 23, 2010
> Hiring Incentives to Restore Employment (HIRE) Act
> Signed: Thursday, March 18, 2010
> Emergency Aid to American Survivors of the Haiti Earthquake Act
> Signed: Wednesday, January 27, 2010
> 2009 Tax Breaks for Haiti Donations
> Signed: Friday, January 22, 2010
> Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act of 2009
> Signed: Friday, October 30, 2009
> National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010
> Signed: Wednesday, October 28, 2009
> Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act
> Signed: Thursday, October 22, 2009
> Cash For Clunkers Extension
> Signed: Thursday, August 6, 2009
> Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
> Signed: Monday, June 22, 2009
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 22:05:52 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:05:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <1784764836.325481275699007174.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1784764836.325481275699007174.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9CBBDCC6-AA5C-4F54-99B5-DEC3C7BAB5C1@verizon.net>

Don,

We haven't been given access to any of your college documents either.  We cannot even document the existence of your San Francisco school.  We cannot document your legal experiences.  We cannot document the FEMA prisons you proposed.  You haven't posted your birth certificate, your driver's license, your pilot's physicals, your voter's registration card, your draft deferment, your military discharge papers, your quarterly reviews, your employment by Halliburton, your tax returns, your dental records, your marriage certificate, the terms of your divorce, DNA testing to determine parentage, etc. etc.

The basic answer is ... so what?

Hawaii has confirmed Obama's birth within Hawaii as reported.  That fact is germane and corroborated.  None of the other items have any bearing on his service.  Zero.

You raise the questions to create smoke.  Why?  

Based upon your postings, it appears that you have a personal problem accepting Barack Hussein Obama as President.  

It is almost humorous.  We live in a country "where any child can grow up to be President."  And then to prove the point, a half-breed boy, raised by a single mother in a third world country and by his grandparents in Hawaii, actually grows up to be President of the United States.  

And you are mad at him for his success!  It is like you cannot believe that anyone could overcome that sort of a hardship to succeed.  I believe that both Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln had similar climbs from their origins.

You ask what he is hiding?  Well, he isn't hiding the sale of arms to Iran to fund an illegal war in Nicaragua.   He isn't lying about the existence of nuclear weapons in Iraq to start a war.  He isn't covering up the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.  He isn't even hiding the break in of the opposition party's headquarters.  He isn't even hiding some bush taking directions from his cheney.

David


On Jun 4, 2010, at 5:50 PM, donkelly wrote:
> ...
> I suppose the statement COULD hang on an alian definithion of the words "hiding" and "sealed".
> 
> To me if something is worth hiding, there must be a good reason to hide it. If there is nothing to hide, then why hide it. Is there fire where there is smoke?
> 
> If Obama did not hide anything, I want to see at least a smidgen of documentation. Just one tiny document will do. Pick any you want....
> But none of those records are worth hiding. People were mostly interested in the registration records for each school, and how did he get into those prestigious schools, where never once being academically elligible, so qualified?
> 
> Obama never hid anything, but he did seal everything? Gee Whiz. Isn't that the same as hiding?
> 
> Symantics are funny that way.
> 
> Great day all
> 
> don

From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun  4 22:25:03 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:25:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com>
	<000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net>
	<25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com>
	<4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367>
	<20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <F4F0FB9C-C285-4108-B9A8-7C51D40F4EC9@verizon.net>

Excellent research, but I doubt that it will make a difference.  Don has a different value system than you.

I doubt that he cares for the government leveling the playing field for women workers, or any other interference in the free market. 

I should not be surprised if everything you see as a success, he sees as a failure.

David

On Jun 4, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> I guess if you didn't like Daniel Pearl or you don't care about  veterans health care or tax breaks  or national defense or things  
> like that you'll not like any of these. ...



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun  4 23:00:49 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:00:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill
	or	two.
In-Reply-To: <4C09B059.2000901@gmail.com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com> <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
	<01dd01cb034a$6f725c20$4e571460$@com> <4C09B059.2000901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401cb0474$735c3010$5a149030$@com>

Adam,

> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> It wasn't a scientific poll otherwise I would have listed
> a source.  I have talked to people from Kentucky, West
> Virginia, Pennsylvania and other coal states.  They
> support this.  

Ok, so then it flies in the face of the numerous other polls that I
researched.  I feel better about that number then.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun  4 23:00:49 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:00:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <1784764836.325481275699007174.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <3B423718-C503-425E-8131-6ECAE57E4FFC@teleport.com>
	<1784764836.325481275699007174.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002701cb0474$75edfe80$61c9fb80$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> We often ask each other for documentation. [...]

Some of us respond with it, while others dismiss it or refuse to provide any.

> [...] Documentation I like.
> 
> But very recently a very intelligent person on this
> list, said, "Obama is not hiding anything."

You like documentation so much, why couldn't you be bothered to link to the relevant posting in the archives so we could all see the text you're quoting and read it in context (if it actually even happened).

The archives are here, if you should feel so moved:
http://rdrop.com/pipermail/grovenet/

> Obama himself admitted that his lawyers sealed
> his birth, academic, and records of professional
> activities in Chicago, clearly sealed and not
> accessible to the public.

Document please.

While you're at it, please describe why existing privacy laws wouldn't already be sufficient to keep this information private making the claimed sealing of records redundant.

> And the thousands of references, in all kind of
> media, referencing records that have been sealed
> by Obama's lawyers, [...]

If it happened so many times, then it ought to be easy to provide credible documentation of specifically what records were sealed, when, how, and by whom.

> If Obama did not hide anything, I want to see at
> least a smidgen of documentation. Just one tiny
> document will do. Pick any you want.

His birth certificate, authenticated by officials in Hawaii, is good enough.

> A GPA of 2.5 at Columbia isn't bad, but it would
> not have qualified him to attend Columbia.
> 
> A 3.0 GPA at Columbia isn't bad, it's good, but
> it wouldn't have gotten him into Harvard, which
> requires a 3.75 GPA.
> 
> Attaining a GPA of 3.5 at Harvard, qualifying
> magna cum laud, was very good. He had to study
> hard, but [...]

His grades in school are absolutely irrelevant and nobody's business.

> [...] (the catch) he had a tutor all the way,
> someone who knew what the tests would be about.

So you are now going to accuse him of cheating his way through Harvard?

Further, you don't include any of that pesky documentation that you like so much.

> But none of those records are worth hiding.

Nor do they require any action to hide.  Existing privacy laws do the job quite nicely.

Jeff




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sat Jun  5 06:33:10 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 06:33:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <F4F0FB9C-C285-4108-B9A8-7C51D40F4EC9@verizon.net>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com><000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net><25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com><4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367><20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
	<F4F0FB9C-C285-4108-B9A8-7C51D40F4EC9@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <750E50F3377B4836930A87B494554A91@GeriPC>

E x a c t l y, David.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 10:25 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?

> Excellent research, but I doubt that it will make a difference.  Don has a 
> different value system than you.
>
> I doubt that he cares for the government leveling the playing field for 
> women workers, or any other interference in the free market.
>
> I should not be surprised if everything you see as a success, he sees as a 
> failure.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 4, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> I guess if you didn't like Daniel Pearl or you don't care about  veterans 
>> health care or tax breaks  or national defense or things
>> like that you'll not like any of these. ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Sat Jun  5 07:50:20 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 07:50:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I don't think anyone's going to be missing a hill
	or	two.
In-Reply-To: <002401cb0474$735c3010$5a149030$@com>
References: <009401cafc57$2dc6fb90$8954f2b0$@com> <4C07D65F.1070601@gmail.com>
	<01dd01cb034a$6f725c20$4e571460$@com> <4C09B059.2000901@gmail.com>
	<002401cb0474$735c3010$5a149030$@com>
Message-ID: <4C0A642C.6070907@gmail.com>

Just curious, have you talked to anyone who lives in that part country 
and asked them how they feel about this?

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Adam,
>
>   
>> From: Adam Mayer
>>
>> It wasn't a scientific poll otherwise I would have listed
>> a source.  I have talked to people from Kentucky, West
>> Virginia, Pennsylvania and other coal states.  They
>> support this.  
>>     
>
> Ok, so then it flies in the face of the numerous other polls that I
> researched.  I feel better about that number then.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From rab at jurislex.com  Sat Jun  5 12:33:35 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:33:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com> <4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
	<4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun  5 12:55:53 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 12:55:53 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com><000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net><25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com><4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367><20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
	<F4F0FB9C-C285-4108-B9A8-7C51D40F4EC9@verizon.net>
	<750E50F3377B4836930A87B494554A91@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <4C0AABC9.00000F.02396@DON-B2514E06367>

False conclusion of course <GRIN>

A level playing field for citizens is good, except when applied to aliens in
this country illegally, consuming our resources, and living freely off of us
 etc. 
 
Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Geri Steele
Date: 06/05/10 06:33:39
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
 
E x a c t l y, David.
 
 
Geri
 
--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 10:25 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
 
> Excellent research, but I doubt that it will make a difference.  Don has a
> different value system than you.
>
> I doubt that he cares for the government leveling the playing field for
> women workers, or any other interference in the free market.
>
> I should not be surprised if everything you see as a success, he sees as a
> failure.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 4, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> I guess if you didn't like Daniel Pearl or you don't care about  veterans
>> health care or tax breaks  or national defense or things
>> like that you'll not like any of these. ...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun  5 13:12:05 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:12:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
	<4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>	<4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
	<4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C0AAF8F.000017.02396@DON-B2514E06367>

OK Bob. Here are two with attribution. I'll comment further (politely of
course) after work.

===============

 
White House linked to flotilla organizers 
A top adviser to President Obama is the contact person within the White
House for communications with the Free Gaza Movement over plans to challenge
Israel's blockade of the terrorist Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, according to
a reputable source close to the Netanyahu government.  
Read the latest now on WND.com.

 
Plus! 
The Los Angeles Times has attacked a blockbuster book investigating
President Obama and his radical connections, claiming the work echoes a
movie in which communists try to hypnotize their way into the White House. 
Click here for details. 

================CUTE

Don whom must have arrived by celestial spaceship because no one can find
his records, but after all, he is not running for president, so who cares
about his records? 

 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Browning
Date: 6/5/2010 12:33:50 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fear
 
Adam - you were not paying attention when I myself used a Foxian rhetorical
device to impugn your reputation, not by saying you are a Foxian conspiracy
nut, but by asking if "you are Foxian conspiracy nut" ! ! !  All you had to
do was answer yes or no. But, as Beck, et al., would now say, "What do you
have to hide since you would not ask my question??" ! !

I have read your postings, and that is why I am not quite sure what to make
of you. The only result I have come to is that you get a certain joy out of
tweaking certain chains on the listserv, a la our Steven and the not so late
or great Gizzmoto (how many of you remember him??).

But, don't give up on any of us, but when one makes a statement (are you
listening DonK??), please do us all a favor and attach an attribution ! ! ! 

bob "I only tweak those I love or hate" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/4/2010 6:53 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: 
<snip>

As for being a "Foxian" conspiracy nut and attack anyone who is not a 
"R", you clearly have not been reading any of my posts over the past 
five months.

Adam

Bob Browning wrote:
  
Thanks for the insight Adam, but I shouldn't have had to spend the 
time finding the attribution for your assertion ! ! Also, the final 
part of your post imputes wrong-doing to Roosevelt. On what do you 
base that? Or are you just a Foxian conspiracy nut who always imputes 
wrong intent to anyone who is not an R??
LOL
    


 
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun  5 16:32:36 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:32:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
In-Reply-To: <4C0AABC9.00000F.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C094C75.2080704@jurislex.com><000001cb0445$829d1be0$87d753a0$@net><25D717A6-E3B0-4557-B196-610EA002D4C5@teleport.com><4C09C37B.00000F.03488@DON-B2514E06367><20C3AB2B-2F3D-483C-8120-EF57054B751D@verizon.net>
	<F4F0FB9C-C285-4108-B9A8-7C51D40F4EC9@verizon.net>
	<750E50F3377B4836930A87B494554A91@GeriPC>
	<4C0AABC9.00000F.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <9C51E85D-D72C-44ED-8FF4-2345D2C4AFD9@verizon.net>


On Jun 5, 2010, at 12:55 PM, donkelly wrote:

> False conclusion of course <GRIN>

<frown>  Okay, I'll bite, which conclusion is false?
a.  Don has a different value system than Katie?
b.  Don does not care for interference in the free market?
c.  Don sees the list provided by Katie as a list of Obama's failures?

David


> 
> A level playing field for citizens is good, except when applied to aliens in this country illegally, consuming our resources, and living freely off of us etc. 
> 
> Don
> 
> From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Does God exist apart from us ? ? ?
> 
> 
> 
>> Excellent research, but I doubt that it will make a difference.  Don has a different value system than you.
> 
>> I doubt that he cares for the government leveling the playing field for women workers, or any other interference in the free market.
>> 
>> I should not be surprised if everything you see as a success, he sees as a failure.
>> 
>> David

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun  5 16:41:30 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:41:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C0AAF8F.000017.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>	<4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
	<4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
	<4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com> <4C0AAF8F.000017.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <5F6F7281-4C45-4DB1-8E0C-2664A826FEE6@verizon.net>

Aren't words wonderful?


On Jun 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ... Israel's blockade of the terrorist Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, ...

or 
...Israel's blockade of the democratically elected government of Gaza, ...

Remember how important it was to the last Administration that we should promote "Democratic Elections" throughout the world.  And when the elections didn't go the way we wanted, we ...

What should we do when the democratic elections don't go in our favor?

I suppose we could adopt the Republican posture and just say 'NO' to everything they propose, no matter what the consequences?

Let us be accurate, Hamas kills innocent people and guilty people, the Israeli government kills innocent people and guilty people.  Can they be judged by the same yardstick?

David


From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun  5 17:06:58 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:06:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C0AAF8F.000017.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>	<4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>
	<4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
	<4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com> <4C0AAF8F.000017.02396@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <A80A0839-0173-40D6-96E1-D07E4631FAD8@verizon.net>

On the same WND page, 

Is flotilla battle signaling start of 'Gog and Magog'?
Council of Judea announces result will be 'third and final redemption'

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=162069

For those who haven't read the Book of Revelation recently, the battle of 'Gog and Magog' happens at the end of Christ's rule of the earth, which is 1000 years AFTER the Second Coming.  

Obviously,  that contributor to WND is behind on their Bible reading.  Or, Jesus returned around 1000 A.D. and has been running the world for the last millennium.  

Care to guess which one is more likely?

David


On Jun 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> Read the latest now on WND.com.




From steelem at pacificu.edu  Sat Jun  5 18:02:19 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 18:02:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A773@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

David...thanks for staying current on "revelations."

This reminds me of the bumper sticker:  "The less people know, the more they believe."

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: June 05, 2010 5:08 PM
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fear


On the same WND page,

Is flotilla battle signaling start of 'Gog and Magog'?
Council of Judea announces result will be 'third and final redemption'

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=162069

For those who haven't read the Book of Revelation recently, the battle of 'Gog and Magog' happens at the end of Christ's rule of the earth, which is 1000 years AFTER the Second Coming.

Obviously,  that contributor to WND is behind on their Bible reading.  Or, Jesus returned around 1000 A.D. and has been running the world for the last millennium.

Care to guess which one is more likely?

David


On Jun 5, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> Read the latest now on WND.com.



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Sat Jun  5 18:36:47 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:36:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fear
In-Reply-To: <4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com>
References: <18755-4BF84067-4556@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><4BF850A2.000079.01244@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E1E48018@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<1489395884-1274567596-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1374446668-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4BF87679.0000B4.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<053b01cafa3b$a31d6eb0$e9584c10$@com>
	<4BF8C5E7.000134.01244@DON-B2514E06367>	<054a01cafa46$fefc6910$fcf53b30$@com>
	<4C067BBE.5070205@gmail.com>
	<4C069272.6090102@jurislex.com>	<4C09AE01.3020903@gmail.com>
	<4C0AA68F.2010607@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C0AFBAF.7050909@gmail.com>

No offense Bob, but your question was not asked very clearly.  Or maybe 
I just didn't take the time to read it fully.  I will admit that I am 
still a bit steamed from a while back when you called me a Republican ;-) .

I'm a Libertarian so I have as much respect for the Democrat party as I 
do for the Republican party.  How much respect I won't say, I'll leave 
that up to you (hint: plan for space in your thimble).

Seriously, I don't trust someone who thinks everything President Obama 
does is right, just as I don't trust someone who thinks everything 
President Obama does is wrong.  Granted I think he as done more wrong 
than right, but that can be debated.  It's the all or nothing that I 
can't stand, so I'll pipe up whenever I see posturing one way or the other.

Adam

Bob Browning wrote:
> Adam - you were not paying attention when I myself used a Foxian 
> rhetorical device to impugn your reputation, not by saying you are a 
> Foxian conspiracy nut, but by asking if "you are Foxian conspiracy 
> nut" ! ! !  All you had to do was answer yes or no. But, as Beck, et 
> al., would now say, "What do you have to hide since you would not ask 
> my question??" ! !
>
> I have read your postings, and that is why I am not quite sure what to 
> make of you. The only result I have come to is that you get a certain 
> joy out of tweaking certain chains on the listserv, a la our Steven 
> and the not so late or great Gizzmoto (how many of you remember him??).
>
> But, don't give up on any of us, but when one makes a statement (are 
> you listening DonK??), please do us all a favor and attach an 
> attribution ! ! !
>
> bob "I only tweak those I love or hate" browning
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On 6/4/2010 6:53 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> As for being a "Foxian" conspiracy nut and attack anyone who is not a 
>> "R", you clearly have not been reading any of my posts over the past 
>> five months.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Bob Browning wrote:
>>   
>>> Thanks for the insight Adam, but I shouldn't have had to spend the 
>>> time finding the attribution for your assertion ! ! Also, the final 
>>> part of your post imputes wrong-doing to Roosevelt. On what do you 
>>> base that? Or are you just a Foxian conspiracy nut who always imputes 
>>> wrong intent to anyone who is not an R??
>>> LOL
>>>     
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun  5 18:53:54 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 18:53:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Foxian Fear?
In-Reply-To: Bob Browning <rab@jurislex.com>'s message of Sat,
	05 Jun 2010	12:33:35 -0700
Message-ID: <9620-4C0AFFB2-5973@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Darn... leave it to da judge to come up with something that I had never
head of before. 


http://tinyurl.com/Foxian


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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun  5 19:07:01 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 19:07:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hoddtyle Greeting For You
Message-ID: <9621-4C0B02C5-4833@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Night :-
http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/night.html

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun  5 19:26:18 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 19:26:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You
In-Reply-To: RosesFromHoss@webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)'s message of Sat,
	5	Jun 2010 19:07:01 -0700
Message-ID: <21480-4C0B074A-1755@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Blame the (Hoddtyle) miss-spell on 4 hours working on my stock of
fire-wood for this  fall.  The temp was 80* 3pm, and that didn't help
any either. 

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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun  5 23:31:48 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 23:31:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Foxian Fear?
In-Reply-To: <9620-4C0AFFB2-5973@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <9620-4C0AFFB2-5973@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <1D5A5955-2C7A-4BF9-B66C-3AB2F2F7FA37@verizon.net>

Nice research.

David

On Jun 5, 2010, at 6:53 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> Darn... leave it to da judge to come up with something that I had never
> head of before. 
> 
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/Foxian
> 
> 
> It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun  6 15:03:01 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:03:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] D Day 1944
Message-ID: <22108-4C0C1B15-1066@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

http://tinyurl.com/6-June-1944

And before some of the grove's men get upset with an OleHoss, I could
not find not find one other than this one that I met my thoughts for
today.  
I would not admit this to anyone else, but from I recollect the Wac's
were just as good as we were, and in some cases one hell of lot better.
What I remember the most about, the nurses that never had dry eyes,
however they still had a smile and a warm hand heart.  
speaking eyes ,I got to get my hankie before I get my keyboard wet.

  

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun  6 22:31:14 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:31:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Trillium
Message-ID: <22107-4C0C8422-2095@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>


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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Mon Jun  7 08:47:44 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 08:47:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Good Morning
Message-ID: <25959-4C0D14A0-606@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

http://exclusives.250free.com/html/mondaymax.html

Good morning everyone.  
I sure hope the weather guessers are right about the temp being 70*
cause it sure wood be nice to be working on a somewhat dry would.   

As Mr Rodgers says "Hello neighbors, welcome to another good day in the
neighborhood"

by the bye.. has anyone ever clicked on sigs by Anna to see where I come
up these goofy backgrounds?

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From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Jun  7 12:09:04 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:09:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A funny for all you single gals  . .. . . . .
Message-ID: <4C0D43D0.8030006@jurislex.com>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun  7 12:36:09 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 12:36:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Star Spangled Banner
Message-ID: <4C0D4A1A.00002C.02064@DON-B2514E06367>

This marine remembers all of the verses of the Star Spangled Banner, and as
a singer is not half bade either.

It brought tears to my eyes.

Sempre fi

http://www.resistnet
com/video/video/show?id=2600775%3AVideo%3A2250255&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_v
deo

Donkelly
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun  7 12:45:03 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 12:45:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A funny for all you single gals  . .. . . . .
References: <4C0D43D0.8030006@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <4C0D4C3C.00002F.02064@DON-B2514E06367>

Oh my Gawd. I had no clue what the request might be. Quick thinking lady for
sure, and I am equally sure she would get her money's worth.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Browning
Date: 6/7/2010 12:09:17 PM
To: Grovenet
Subject: [Grovenet] A funny for all you single gals . .. . . . .
 
A woman was sitting at a bar enjoying an after work cocktail 
with her girlfriends when a tall, exceptionally handsome, 
extremely sexy, middle-aged man entered. He was so striking 
that the woman could not take her eyes off him. 
.
.
.
.
The young-at-heart man noticed her overly attentive stare 
and walked directly toward her.  Before she could offer her 
apologies for staring so rudely, he leaned over and 
whispered to her, 'I'll do anything, absolutely anything, 
that you want me to do, no matter how kinky, for 
$20.00....... "
.
.
"On one condition...." 
.
.
Flabbergasted, the woman asked what the condition was. 
.
.
The man replied, "You have to tell me what you want me to do in 
just three words."
.
.
.
.
The woman considered his proposition for a moment, and then she
slowly removed a $20 bill from her purse, which she pressed 
into the man's hand along with her address. She looked 
deeply into his eyes, and slowly and meaningfully said.... 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"Clean my house." 



 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun  7 12:58:26 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 12:58:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
Message-ID: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>

True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by their
inaction's.

Plus, Helen Thomas quits.

http://www.newsmax
com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991

If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama bunch, just
willfully ignorant?

Don
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun  7 13:43:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:43:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00dc01cb0682$277f7250$767e56f0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by
> their inaction's.
> 
>
http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/i
d/360991
> 
> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama
> bunch, just willfully ignorant?

If you take Kessler's statement as fact, then I suppose "willfully ignorant"
would be an accurate characterization.  The trouble though is that Kessler's
piece doesn't contain any attempts to validate the claims he's making.
Therefore, none of it is believable.

> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.

Retiring at 89 years old, it's clear she loves what she does and feels a
sense of duty to her country.  It's clear that she, like many, is deeply
frustrated with the Israel/Palestine debacle.  It's unfortunate that her
personal, uncensored feelings resulted in a backlash sufficient to cause her
to retire.

Jeff



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 13:59:27 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:59:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>

I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my attention.

Conservatives Are the Mainstream
 
"The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that conservatives who support the free enterprise system are cranks who are in the minority.

The truth is quite the opposite."
http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359948
guarantees
He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.

"Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system" are not synomous.  Not even close.  

For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the owners of large agricultural corporations are viewed as conservatives.  Yet the support for crop subsidies comes from them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free enterprise.

People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as conservative.  People who invest in housing are viewed as conservative.  Yet the support for Federal Home Loan guarantees and Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from them.  Federal guarantees and insurance are NOT free enterprise.

It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports a mixed enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".  And they are "just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social Security, Medicare, investment tax credits, business loss tax deductions, business subsidies, import restrictions, etc. and see how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".

The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise system, but they are a minority.  The majority wants the government to interfere on their side, or stay out of the process.  

On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:

> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by their inaction's.
> 
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
> 
> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991
> 
> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama bunch, just willfully ignorant?
> 
> Don

From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Jun  7 14:13:51 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:13:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Natural gas pipeline explodes in north Texas
Message-ID: <4C0D610F.5000406@jurislex.com>

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URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100607/61a2503c/attachment.html 

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Mon Jun  7 15:51:02 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 15:51:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise system, one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown operation--looks like Baghdad when it was being looted after the downfall of Saddam.  There is no inherent moral structure to unfettered capitalism.  It is not necessarily immoral--more likely simply amoral--and we have learned that bitter lesson too many times to count.

--Mike 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences

I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my attention.

Conservatives Are the Mainstream
 
"The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that conservatives who support the free enterprise system are cranks who are in the minority.

The truth is quite the opposite."
http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359948
guarantees
He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.

"Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system" are not synomous.  Not even close.  

For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the owners of large agricultural corporations are viewed as conservatives.  Yet the support for crop subsidies comes from them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free enterprise.

People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as conservative.  People who invest in housing are viewed as conservative.  Yet the support for Federal Home Loan guarantees and Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from them.  Federal guarantees and insurance are NOT free enterprise.

It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports a mixed enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".  And they are "just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social Security, Medicare, investment tax credits, business loss tax deductions, business subsidies, import restrictions, etc. and see how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".

The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise system, but they are a minority.  The majority wants the government to interfere on their side, or stay out of the process.  

On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:

> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by their inaction's.
> 
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
> 
> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991
> 
> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama bunch, just willfully ignorant?
> 
> Don
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  7 15:52:03 2010
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 15:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] PFLAG movie showing Tues. 6/15/10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.616.1273163909.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <556983.73139.qm@web55606.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

In case you are unfamiliar with PFLAG - it stands for:
?
Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays!? (And yes, there ARE many of us?in Forest Grove and Hillsboro)
?
You are invited to PFLAG Forest Grove's (hoping to become PFLAG Washington County) next gathering on:
?
Next Meeting: Tuesday, June 15th, 7:00PM
?
Where: Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Washington County (UUCCWC), 
22785 NW Birch St. Hillsboro (near Orenco Station)
?

What: We?ll be showing the short movie, ?Out in the Silence,? described as ?a film and campaign for fairness and equality in rural and small town America.? It?s about a small town?s struggle with GLBT discrimination and its effects.? Powerful, sad and uplifting at the same time, it documents a small Pennsylvania town?s efforts to overcome bigotry and ultimately win a struggle with the local school board over GLBT discrimination.?
?
It also covers how and what happens when people with opposing viewpoints actually get together and have an open dialogue with each other.
?
After the movie we?ll have discussion and treats and be done by 9pm.
? 


This is PFLAG Forest Grove's?first attempt to broaden our ability to serve people in the greater Western Washington County area, and we hope you?ll come and show your support, see a great documentary and join in a great discussion.
?
Thanks, Alana

From PBTFG at aol.com  Mon Jun  7 16:41:38 2010
From: PBTFG at aol.com (PBTFG at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:41:38 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Officer Greg Dunlap and Dr. Vern Hansen
Message-ID: <72c80.710cbfb6.393eddb2@aol.com>

Funeral services will be held this Saturday, June 12, at St. Peter's  
Lutheran Church on Golf Course Road, south of Cornelius for Forest Grove Police  
Sergeant Greg Dunlap, who died Saturday at his home.
  Sergeant Dunlap had been an officer with Forest Grove since  1988.  He 
had been named Officer of the Year in 2008, and was currently the  President 
of the Forest Grove Police Officers' Association.
  He is survived by his wife Diane.  Further information is  available on 
the City of Forest Grove website.
  He will be missed by those in the Forest Grove Police Department, by  
fellow employees of the City of Forest Grove, and by those in the wider  
community of Forest Grove.
 
  I also regret to report the death of Vern Hansen, former Athletic  
Director and Vice Principal at Forest Grove High School.  Vern died early  Monday 
morning at OHSU, where he had been taken following internal bleeding last  
week.  Vern is survived by his wife Darlene, daughters Julie and Mary, and  
son David.  He had numerous grandchildren.  Vern taught at Forest  Grove High 
School, and was the varsity football coach in the early to  mid-60's.  He 
then moved on to administrative work, holding the post of AD  and Assistant 
Principal at the high school.  He was a member of the  Cornelius Lutheran 
Church.  He will also be missed by many of us in Forest  Grove.

From PBTFG at aol.com  Mon Jun  7 16:45:22 2010
From: PBTFG at aol.com (PBTFG at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:45:22 EDT
Subject: [Grovenet] Vern Hansen
Message-ID: <7303d.51060fd5.393ede92@aol.com>

Concerning Dr. Hansen, the church Vern belonged to is Emanuel  Lutheran 
Church in Cornelius.  I apologize for the mislabeling in the  previous notice.

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Mon Jun  7 18:59:20 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 18:59:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A funny for all you single gals  . .. . . . .
In-Reply-To: Bob Browning <rab@jurislex.com>'s message of Mon,
	07 Jun 2010	12:09:04 -0700
Message-ID: <13114-4C0DA3F8-758@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Only bucks, gee judge you got off easy.

-------------- next part --------------
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 19:55:50 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:55:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A funny for all you single gals  . .. . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C0D43D0.8030006@jurislex.com>
References: <4C0D43D0.8030006@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <A0713EEC-5EEC-4A62-9841-F2B9A00FBC93@verizon.net>

ROTFL

Katie
Thanks Bob!

On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Bob Browning wrote:

> A woman was sitting at a bar enjoying an after work cocktail
> with her girlfriends when a tall, exceptionally handsome,
> extremely sexy, middle-aged man entered. He was so striking
> that the woman could not take her eyes off him.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> The young-at-heart man noticed her overly attentive stare
> and walked directly toward her.  Before she could offer her
> apologies for staring so rudely, he leaned over and
> whispered to her, 'I'll do anything, absolutely anything,
> that you want me to do, no matter how kinky, for
> $20.00....... "
> .
> .
> "On one condition...."
> .
> .
> Flabbergasted, the woman asked what the condition was.
> .
> .
> The man replied, "You have to tell me what you want me to do in
> just three words."
> .
> .
> .
> .
> The woman considered his proposition for a moment, and then she
> slowly removed a $20 bill from her purse, which she pressed
> into the man's hand along with her address. She looked
> deeply into his eyes, and slowly and meaningfully said....
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> "Clean my house."
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 20:09:53 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:09:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <351F9701-B191-4885-B288-5610BF238849@verizon.net>

The other comparison was if you want to live in a country where the  
government is small enough to drown in a bathtub then try Somalia. No  
regulations, no gun control, low taxes, no welfare, etc. A true  
utopia if you don't like government interference.

Katie

On Jun 7, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Steele, Mike wrote:

> A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise  
> system, one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown  
> operation--looks like Baghdad when it was being looted after the  
> downfall of Saddam.  There is no inherent moral structure to  
> unfettered capitalism.  It is not necessarily immoral--more likely  
> simply amoral--and we have learned that bitter lesson too many  
> times to count.
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>
> I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my  
> attention.
>
> Conservatives Are the Mainstream
>
> "The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that  
> conservatives who support the free enterprise system are cranks who  
> are in the minority.
>
> The truth is quite the opposite."
> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives- 
> mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359948
> guarantees
> He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.
>
> "Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system"  
> are not synomous.  Not even close.
>
> For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the  
> owners of large agricultural corporations are viewed as  
> conservatives.  Yet the support for crop subsidies comes from  
> them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free enterprise.
>
> People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as  
> conservative.  People who invest in housing are viewed as  
> conservative.  Yet the support for Federal Home Loan guarantees and  
> Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from them.  Federal guarantees and  
> insurance are NOT free enterprise.
>
> It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports  
> a mixed enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".   
> And they are "just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social  
> Security, Medicare, investment tax credits, business loss tax  
> deductions, business subsidies, import restrictions, etc. and see  
> how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".
>
> The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise  
> system, but they are a minority.  The majority wants the government  
> to interfere on their side, or stay out of the process.
>
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by  
>> their inaction's.
>>
>> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>>
>> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/ 
>> 2010/06/03/id/360991
>>
>> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama  
>> bunch, just willfully ignorant?
>>
>> Don
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Mon Jun  7 20:52:45 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:52:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A77D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

With lots of cheap drugs and highly lucrative piracy franchises available for those go-getter types.  You can also rig up machine guns on your Toyota mini-pickups.  What more could you want?

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: June 07, 2010 8:10 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences


The other comparison was if you want to live in a country where the
government is small enough to drown in a bathtub then try Somalia. No
regulations, no gun control, low taxes, no welfare, etc. A true
utopia if you don't like government interference.

Katie

On Jun 7, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Steele, Mike wrote:

> A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise
> system, one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown
> operation--looks like Baghdad when it was being looted after the
> downfall of Saddam.  There is no inherent moral structure to
> unfettered capitalism.  It is not necessarily immoral--more likely
> simply amoral--and we have learned that bitter lesson too many
> times to count.
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>
> I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my
> attention.
>
> Conservatives Are the Mainstream
>
> "The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that
> conservatives who support the free enterprise system are cranks who
> are in the minority.
>
> The truth is quite the opposite."
> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-
> mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359948
> guarantees
> He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.
>
> "Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system"
> are not synomous.  Not even close.
>
> For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the
> owners of large agricultural corporations are viewed as
> conservatives.  Yet the support for crop subsidies comes from
> them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free enterprise.
>
> People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as
> conservative.  People who invest in housing are viewed as
> conservative.  Yet the support for Federal Home Loan guarantees and
> Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from them.  Federal guarantees and
> insurance are NOT free enterprise.
>
> It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports
> a mixed enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".
> And they are "just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social
> Security, Medicare, investment tax credits, business loss tax
> deductions, business subsidies, import restrictions, etc. and see
> how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".
>
> The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise
> system, but they are a minority.  The majority wants the government
> to interfere on their side, or stay out of the process.
>
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by
>> their inaction's.
>>
>> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>>
>> http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/
>> 2010/06/03/id/360991
>>
>> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama
>> bunch, just willfully ignorant?
>>
>> Don
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 21:34:39 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:34:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <351F9701-B191-4885-B288-5610BF238849@verizon.net>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<351F9701-B191-4885-B288-5610BF238849@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9BA21511-7DE0-4C59-8B45-514EBD1A89EF@verizon.net>

Funny thing, there are no junkets flying there to "see how it works".  

There are no crowds of people waiting for visas to move there.  Why not?

David

On Jun 7, 2010, at 8:09 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> The other comparison was if you want to live in a country where the government is small enough to drown in a bathtub then try Somalia. No regulations, no gun control, low taxes, no welfare, etc. A true utopia if you don't like government interference.
> 
> Katie



From chuck at grovenet.net  Mon Jun  7 21:55:10 2010
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:55:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>

Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words, 
thoughts, and prayers. 

Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube removed 
later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had 
happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was 
transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the next 
few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY 
surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were transferred 
once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the 
Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO). 

She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise 
bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole ordeal 
began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every day.  I 
hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples should 
be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be 
home this Friday. 

My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very, 
very impressed with their work. 

She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just wanted 
to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.  
And I thank you too. 

chuck underwood
(formerly of woodchuck computers)



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Jun  7 22:04:20 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:04:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <DB6BF47F-3A56-4A92-997A-A4F91A6B777C@teleport.com>

Great news, Chuck!
Sounds like she is proving one tough and resilient  lady!
Walt
On Jun 7, 2010, at 9:55 PM, chuck wrote:

> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words,
> thoughts, and prayers.
>
> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube  
> removed
> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had
> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was
> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the  
> next
> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY
> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were  
> transferred
> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the
> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO).
>
> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise
> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole  
> ordeal
> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every  
> day.  I
> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples  
> should
> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be
> home this Friday.
>
> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very,
> very impressed with their work.
>
> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just  
> wanted
> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.
> And I thank you too.
>
> chuck underwood
> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From k.wilke at mac.com  Mon Jun  7 22:05:12 2010
From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:05:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <DB6BF47F-3A56-4A92-997A-A4F91A6B777C@teleport.com>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
	<DB6BF47F-3A56-4A92-997A-A4F91A6B777C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <E86EC9F0-BE9E-4ECA-8657-542A0ED19665@mac.com>

Chuck, 

That is wonderful.  We'll keep you in our prayers.

Kurt

On Jun 7, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Walt Wentz wrote:

> Great news, Chuck!
> Sounds like she is proving one tough and resilient  lady!
> Walt
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 9:55 PM, chuck wrote:
> 
>> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words,
>> thoughts, and prayers.
>> 
>> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube  
>> removed
>> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had
>> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was
>> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the  
>> next
>> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY
>> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were  
>> transferred
>> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the
>> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO).
>> 
>> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise
>> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole  
>> ordeal
>> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every  
>> day.  I
>> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples  
>> should
>> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be
>> home this Friday.
>> 
>> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very,
>> very impressed with their work.
>> 
>> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just  
>> wanted
>> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.
>> And I thank you too.
>> 
>> chuck underwood
>> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 22:14:22 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:14:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <F5CD8235-8542-47FA-A971-2A65E909E5A3@verizon.net>

Keep getting better.


On Jun 7, 2010, at 9:55 PM, chuck wrote:

> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words, thoughts, and prayers. 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 00:18:07 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 00:18:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
	<DB6BF47F-3A56-4A92-997A-A4F91A6B777C@teleport.com>
	<E86EC9F0-BE9E-4ECA-8657-542A0ED19665@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4C0DEEAB.000001.02428@DON-B2514E06367>

Wonderful news Chuck, and you are most welcome. This is great news.

Donkelly 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Kurt Wilke
Date: 6/7/2010 10:05:25 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
 
Chuck,
 
That is wonderful.  We'll keep you in our prayers.
 
Kurt
 
On Jun 7, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Walt Wentz wrote:
 
> Great news, Chuck!
> Sounds like she is proving one tough and resilient  lady!
> Walt
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 9:55 PM, chuck wrote:
>
>> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words,
>> thoughts, and prayers.
>>
>> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube
>> removed
>> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had
>> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was
>> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the
>> next
>> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY
>> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were
>> transferred
>> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the
>> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO).
>>
>> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise
>> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole
>> ordeal
>> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every
>> day.  I
>> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples
>> should
>> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be
>> home this Friday.
>>
>> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very,
>> very impressed with their work.
>>
>> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just
>> wanted
>> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.
>> And I thank you too.
>>
>> chuck underwood
>> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 04:50:03 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 04:50:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net><D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <8CF3F7392F5B4ABD8D9008802574DC38@GeriPC>

Couldn't be happier hearing such an excellent report!
Thanks for your updates, and our thoughts remain
with Rhonda & you, Chuck, for her continued recovery. : )


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "chuck" <chuck at grovenet.net>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:55 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2

> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words, 
> thoughts, and prayers. 
> 
> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube removed 
> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had 
> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was 
> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the next 
> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY 
> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were transferred 
> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the 
> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO). 
> 
> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise 
> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole ordeal 
> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every day.  I 
> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples should 
> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be 
> home this Friday. 
> 
> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very, 
> very impressed with their work. 
> 
> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just wanted 
> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.  
> And I thank you too. 
> 
> chuck underwood
> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  8 08:48:43 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 08:48:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
Message-ID: <25956-4C0E665B-2872@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Any Ole Timers remember a bottling company in Hillsboro some time ago
that bottled Nesbitt's Orange drink.
My helper has been cleaning up a small stream that feeds into Dairy
Creek.
He has found a lot of stuff it seems that way back then somebody was
dumpling garbage.  So we have found a lot of old bottles, bed  springs,
milk cans, parts of cars. and miscellaneous bits of all kinds broken
colored glass, and various pieces of unidentified metal items.



From edavie at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 08:53:20 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:53:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <853B95CE5887480E8FC9D9A01BA9CAFE@EdsPortable>

That's great Chuck. We've been thinking about you!
Ed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chuck" <chuck at grovenet.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 9:55 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2


> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words, 
> thoughts, and prayers. 
> 
> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube removed 
> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had 
> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was 
> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the next 
> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY 
> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were transferred 
> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the 
> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO). 
> 
> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise 
> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole ordeal 
> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every day.  I 
> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples should 
> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be 
> home this Friday. 
> 
> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very, 
> very impressed with their work. 
> 
> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just wanted 
> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.  
> And I thank you too. 
> 
> chuck underwood
> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 11:05:17 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 11:05:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: HOW TO SELL ... TOOTHBRUSHES The teacher was
	speechless. . . . . . . .
Message-ID: <4C0E865D.000001.00188@DON-B2514E06367>

This is funny, as the "clean my house" line was funny. 

My wife doesn't laugh at jokes much, but she clapped her hands over these
two.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Velon
Date: 6/7/2010 6:12:39 PM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:,
Subject: Fw: HOW TO SELL ... TOOTHBRUSHES The teacher was speechless. . . . 
 . . .
 
 
 
HOW TO SELL ... TOOTHBRUSHES
 
The kids filed back into class Monday morning. They were very excited. 
Their weekend assignment was to sell something, then give a talk on 
productive salesmanship.
 
Little Sally led off: "I sold girl scout cookies and I made $30," she said 
proudly, "My sales approach was to appeal to the customer's civil spirit and

I credit that approach for my obvious success."
 
"Very good," said the teacher.
 
Little Jenny was next:
 
"I sold magazines," she said, "I made $45 and I explained to everyone that 
magazines would keep them up on current events."
 
"Very good, Jenny," said the teacher..
 
Eventually, it was Little Johnny's turn.
 
The teacher held her breath ...
 
Little Johnny walked to the front of the classroom and dumped a box full of 
cash on the teacher's desk. "$2,467," he said.
 
"$2,467!" cried the teacher, "What in the world were you selling"
 
"Toothbrushes," said Little Johnny.
 
"Toothbrushes," echoed the teacher,
 
"How could you possibly sell enough tooth brushes to make that much money?"
 
"I found the busiest corner in town," said Little Johnny, "I set up a Dip & 
Chip stand, I gave everybody who walked by a free sample."
 
They all said the same thing, "Hey, this tastes like dog shit!"
 
Then I would say,"It is dog shit. Wanna buy a toothbrush?"
 
"I used the governmental approach of giving you something shitty that they
say is good, and then making  you pay to get the shitty taste out of your
mouth."
The teacher was speechless. . . . . . . .













No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2924 - Release Date: 06/07/10
11:35:00

 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 12:03:11 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:03:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>

Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free market
system?

Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?

Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually improve things?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/7/2010 3:51:01 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
 
A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise system,
one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown operation--looks like
Baghdad when it was being looted after the downfall of Saddam.  There is no
inherent moral structure to unfettered capitalism.  It is not necessarily
immoral--more likely simply amoral--and we have learned that bitter lesson
too many times to count.
 
--Mike
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
 
I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my attention.
 
Conservatives Are the Mainstream
 
"The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that conservatives
who support the free enterprise system are cranks who are in the minority.
 
The truth is quite the opposite."
http://www.newsmax
com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359
48
guarantees
He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.
 
"Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system" are not
synomous.  Not even close.
 
For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the owners
of large agricultural corporations are viewed as conservatives.  Yet the
support for crop subsidies comes from them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free
enterprise.
 
People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as conservative. 
People who invest in housing are viewed as conservative.  Yet the support
for Federal Home Loan guarantees and Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from
them.  Federal guarantees and insurance are NOT free enterprise.
 
It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports a mixed
enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".  And they are 
just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social Security, Medicare, investment
tax credits, business loss tax deductions, business subsidies, import
restrictions, etc. and see how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".
 
The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise system, but
they are a minority.  The majority wants the government to interfere on
their side, or stay out of the process.
 
On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
 
> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by their
inaction's.
>
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>
> http://www.newsmax
com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991
>
> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama bunch, just
willfully ignorant?
>
> Don
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 12:28:35 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 12:28:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
References: <25315-4C03E16C-437@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>	<4C045118.6050907@grovenet.net>
	<D9A6C287DD314CF1ACDA94AAA8381AA6@GeriPC>
	<4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <4C0E99E3.6070505@gmail.com>

RIO is one of the greatest things out there.  After my wife's ruptured 
aneurysm she was there for a week and a half.  It was like boot camp, 
but it got her on her feet and back to normal.  Your wife is in good 
hands over there.

Adam

chuck wrote:
> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words, 
> thoughts, and prayers. 
>
> Rhonda woke up last Tuesday just fine and had her breathing tube removed 
> later on that day.  By Wed she was wide awake and wondering what had 
> happened.  She remembers very little.  Wednesday night she was 
> transferred to a step down ICU Room (Trauma Recovery) and spent the next 
> few nights there under watch.  The docs and nurses have been VERY 
> surprised at her speedy recovery.  Friday afternoon we were transferred 
> once again to Good Samaritan Hospital.  She in now attending the 
> Rehabilitation Institute of Oregon (or RIO). 
>
> She is walking, talking, climbing stairs, riding exercise 
> bikes.....pretty much everything she was doing before this whole ordeal 
> began.  She is building her strength, balance, and stamina every day.  I 
> hear the nurses say every day how well she is doing.  Her staples should 
> be removed later on this week.  And if all goes well, Rhonda will be 
> home this Friday. 
>
> My hats off to RIO - they are one top notch outfit.  I have been very, 
> very impressed with their work. 
>
> She is excited at her progress, can't wait to come home, and just wanted 
> to say Thank You to all the Grovenuts who kept her in their prayers.  
> And I thank you too. 
>
> chuck underwood
> (formerly of woodchuck computers)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 12:35:24 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 12:35:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C0E9B7C.30907@gmail.com>

I'll agree with Don here, a free market economy without a court system 
is anarchy.  I know people who do advocate a full complete free market 
but they are adamant about there being a government court system to 
settle contract disputes, protect investors and so forth.  Also the fall 
of a dictatorship during a war, i.e. Iraq, is not an accurate 
description of a free market economy either.

Adam

donkelly wrote:
> Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free market
> system?
>
>
>
> Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?
>
>
>
> Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually improve things?
>
>
>
> Don 
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>  
>
> From: Steele, Mike
>
> Date: 6/7/2010 3:51:01 PM
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>
>  
>
> A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise system,
> one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown operation--looks like
> Baghdad when it was being looted after the downfall of Saddam.  There is no
> inherent moral structure to unfettered capitalism.  It is not necessarily
> immoral--more likely simply amoral--and we have learned that bitter lesson
> too many times to count.
>
>  
>
> --Mike
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
>
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
>
> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>
>  
>
> I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my attention.
>
>  
>
> Conservatives Are the Mainstream
>
>  
>
> "The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that conservatives
> who support the free enterprise system are cranks who are in the minority.
>
>  
>
> The truth is quite the opposite."
>
> http://www.newsmax
> com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-mainstream-liberals/2010/05/24/id/359
> 48
>
> guarantees
>
> He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.
>
>  
>
> "Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise system" are not
> synomous.  Not even close.
>
>  
>
> For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and the owners
> of large agricultural corporations are viewed as conservatives.  Yet the
> support for crop subsidies comes from them.  Crop subsidies are NOT free
> enterprise.
>
>  
>
> People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as conservative. 
> People who invest in housing are viewed as conservative.  Yet the support
> for Federal Home Loan guarantees and Federal Mortgage Insurance comes from
> them.  Federal guarantees and insurance are NOT free enterprise.
>
>  
>
> It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports a mixed
> enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".  And they are 
> just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social Security, Medicare, investment
> tax credits, business loss tax deductions, business subsidies, import
> restrictions, etc. and see how much the Conservatives are "free enterprise".
>
>  
>
> The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise system, but
> they are a minority.  The majority wants the government to interfere on
> their side, or stay out of the process.
>
>  
>
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>  
>
>   
>> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by their
>>     
> inaction's.
>
>   
>
>   
>> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> http://www.newsmax
>>     
> com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991
>
>   
>
>   
>> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama bunch, just
>>     
> willfully ignorant?
>
>   
>
>   
>> Don
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>  
>
>  
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From hannah at teleport.com  Tue Jun  8 12:49:09 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:49:09 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
In-Reply-To: <4C0DCD2E.4090209@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <C83408E5.16D4C%hannah@teleport.com>

GREAT NEWS!
Doctors are wonderful people who do so much so well.
Kristy


On 6/7/10 11:55 PM, "chuck" <chuck at grovenet.net> wrote:

> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words,
> thoughts, and prayers. 




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 12:53:52 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:53:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00dc01cb0682$277f7250$767e56f0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C0E9FCA.000034.00188@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes Jeff, and I am convinced that you noticed some of the things that I
noticed.

Kessler's statements were not new news. All points he made had been reported
on live or written media before.

The AG admitted under questioning that he had not read the Arizona bill.

Same for the others.

Same for the LA city council.

All made knee jerk responses. All were willfully ignorant. None in my view
are dummies.

As for Helen Thomas, I always liked her, and I feel for her as knee jerk
responses are not her fortier.
She has always been quite open with where she stood, and I will miss her.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/7/2010 1:44:08 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by
> their inaction's.
>
>
http://www.newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/i
d/360991
>
> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama
> bunch, just willfully ignorant?
 
If you take Kessler's statement as fact, then I suppose "willfully ignorant"
would be an accurate characterization.  The trouble though is that Kessler's
piece doesn't contain any attempts to validate the claims he's making.
Therefore, none of it is believable.
 
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
 
Retiring at 89 years old, it's clear she loves what she does and feels a
sense of duty to her country.  It's clear that she, like many, is deeply
frustrated with the Israel/Palestine debacle.  It's unfortunate that her
personal, uncensored feelings resulted in a backlash sufficient to cause her
to retire.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 13:11:45 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:11:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
References: <C83408E5.16D4C%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C0EA3FE.000039.00188@DON-B2514E06367>

I'll second that. Four doctors have kept me alive since I contracted
diabetes and prostate issues in 1997. All aggressively attacked the issues
and spared no expense in helping me.

Doctors for the most part (I hope) are to be commended and supported.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Kristy Gravlin
Date: 6/8/2010 12:49:33 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rhonda Update #2
 
GREAT NEWS!
Doctors are wonderful people who do so much so well.
Kristy
 
 
On 6/7/10 11:55 PM, "chuck" <chuck at grovenet.net> wrote:
 
> Thank you all again , so very much, for all of your kind words,
> thoughts, and prayers.
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun  8 13:16:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:16:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Search engines
Message-ID: <4C0EA51B.00003E.00188@DON-B2514E06367>

A friend found this very nice search engine.

Put your name in it and give it a run.

It is free and does some things Google et al do not do.

http://pipl.com/
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun  8 14:25:17 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:25:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0E9FCA.000034.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00dc01cb0682$277f7250$767e56f0$@com>
	<4C0E9FCA.000034.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <023001cb0751$17fa5be0$47ef13a0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Kessler's statements were not new news. All points he
> made had been reported on live or written media before.

Then it'd be a simple matter for him or you to link to attribution, right?

> The AG admitted under questioning that he had not
> read the Arizona bill.

"I have not had a chance to. I've glanced at it. I have not read it," Holder
acknowledged in response to questions from Rep. Ted Poe (R-Texas).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0510/Holder_hasnt_read_Ariz_immig
ration_bill.html

So he hasn't *read* the law, but he has seen it.  If I was in his position,
I'd make the same statement if I'd looked through it, but not given it a
thorough review.  Perhaps this is a situation where a lawyer's definition of
"read" is different than a layman's.

> Same for the others.

Napolitano:

"Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano [...] told Sen. John McCain
(R-Ariz.) and the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Committee Monday that she had not reviewed the law in detail..."

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/66122

This is, I believe, the same position Holder was taking and does not mean
"did not read", but rather, "did not read for legal comprehension and
position".

> Same for the LA city council.

LA city council isn't mentioned in the NewsMax article.

> All made knee jerk responses. All were willfully
> ignorant. None in my view are dummies.

Knee-jerk responses come from having no knowledge of something.  The
position that they made knee-jerk responses hinges on the idea that they had
no knowledge of the contents of Arizona SB 1070.  Their statements
contradict that position.

Jeff



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun  8 14:40:57 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:40:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
In-Reply-To: <25956-4C0E665B-2872@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <25956-4C0E665B-2872@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <BCB4EDA2-3ACC-4C56-9E7C-1AE54ADFF5F6@teleport.com>

Try the Washington County Historical Society. They might want some of  
tehe bottles for display at the county museum.
WW
On Jun 8, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> Any Ole Timers remember a bottling company in Hillsboro some time ago
> that bottled Nesbitt's Orange drink.
> My helper has been cleaning up a small stream that feeds into Dairy
> Creek.
> He has found a lot of stuff it seems that way back then somebody was
> dumpling garbage.  So we have found a lot of old bottles, bed   
> springs,
> milk cans, parts of cars. and miscellaneous bits of all kinds broken
> colored glass, and various pieces of unidentified metal items.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun  8 15:15:48 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:15:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0E9B7C.30907@gmail.com>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367> <4C0E9B7C.30907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E619A325-33FE-4424-8895-FD5FF028E4E1@teleport.com>

In other words even those who advocate an absolutely free market also  
demand regulation to protect people from the worst excesses of the  
marketpalce. Sounds OK to me, no matter what you call it.
WW
On Jun 8, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I'll agree with Don here, a free market economy without a court system
> is anarchy.  I know people who do advocate a full complete free market
> but they are adamant about there being a government court system to
> settle contract disputes, protect investors and so forth.  Also the  
> fall
> of a dictatorship during a war, i.e. Iraq, is not an accurate
> description of a free market economy either.
>
> Adam
>
> donkelly wrote:
>> Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free  
>> market
>> system?
>>
>>
>>
>> Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?
>>
>>
>>
>> Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually  
>> improve things?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Steele, Mike
>>
>> Date: 6/7/2010 3:51:01 PM
>>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>>
>>
>>
>> A few years ago, a commentator noted that a truly free enterprise  
>> system,
>> one with no regulations, the free market in full-blown operation-- 
>> looks like
>> Baghdad when it was being looted after the downfall of Saddam.   
>> There is no
>> inherent moral structure to unfettered capitalism.  It is not  
>> necessarily
>> immoral--more likely simply amoral--and we have learned that  
>> bitter lesson
>> too many times to count.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of David Morelli
>>
>> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 1:59 PM
>>
>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
>>
>>
>>
>> I was going to reply, but another of his headlines caught my  
>> attention.
>>
>>
>>
>> Conservatives Are the Mainstream
>>
>>
>>
>> "The impression you get from dominant opinion makers is that  
>> conservatives
>> who support the free enterprise system are cranks who are in the  
>> minority.
>>
>>
>>
>> The truth is quite the opposite."
>>
>> http://www.newsmax
>> com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Conservatives-mainstream-liberals/ 
>> 2010/05/24/id/359
>> 48
>>
>> guarantees
>>
>> He starts with a false statement and proceeds to attack it.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Conservatives" and "people who support the free enterprise  
>> system" are not
>> synomous.  Not even close.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, the American farmer is viewed as conservative, and  
>> the owners
>> of large agricultural corporations are viewed as conservatives.   
>> Yet the
>> support for crop subsidies comes from them.  Crop subsidies are  
>> NOT free
>> enterprise.
>>
>>
>>
>> People who run banks and lending institutions are viewed as  
>> conservative.
>> People who invest in housing are viewed as conservative.  Yet the  
>> support
>> for Federal Home Loan guarantees and Federal Mortgage Insurance  
>> comes from
>> them.  Federal guarantees and insurance are NOT free enterprise.
>>
>>
>>
>> It goes on and on.  The dominant majority in this country supports  
>> a mixed
>> enterprise system, that masquerades as "free enterprise".  And  
>> they are
>> just fine" with that.  Try taking away Social Security, Medicare,  
>> investment
>> tax credits, business loss tax deductions, business subsidies, import
>> restrictions, etc. and see how much the Conservatives are "free  
>> enterprise".
>>
>>
>>
>> The Libertarians may understand and support the free enterprise  
>> system, but
>> they are a minority.  The majority wants the government to  
>> interfere on
>> their side, or stay out of the process.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> True stories and documented by the media, by their actions and by  
>>> their
>>>
>> inaction's.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://www.newsmax
>>>
>> com/RonaldKessler/Kessler-Obama-media-Holder/2010/06/03/id/360991
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> If the Bush bunch were dummies, what does that make the Obama  
>>> bunch, just
>>>
>> willfully ignorant?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ---
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Tue Jun  8 18:54:41 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:54:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz <waltw@teleport.com>'s message of Tue,
	8 Jun 2010	14:40:57 -0700
Message-ID: <13111-4C0EF461-3612@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

thanks Walt



From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 21:26:14 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:26:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Search engines
In-Reply-To: <4C0EA51B.00003E.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0EA51B.00003E.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <9CBEE5F4-736F-4346-B6C6-D904F38A8212@verizon.net>

Fun, I didn't realize that I was so active.  I have army paperwork, a dozen or so businesses, several degrees, even in medicine, an active sports career, and so many other things.  It is a wonder that I have time for grovenet.  <smile>

Or, there are more than one person with my name.  <sigh>

David

On Jun 8, 2010, at 1:16 PM, donkelly wrote:

> A friend found this very nice search engine.
> 
> 
> 
> Put your name in it and give it a run.
> 
> 
> 
> It is free and does some things Google et al do not do.
> 
> 
> 
> http://pipl.com/
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 21:58:39 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:58:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0E9B7C.30907@gmail.com>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367> <4C0E9B7C.30907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61C6132C-0BCC-477B-B052-09741A5F4EB6@verizon.net>

"A free market without a court system is anarchy".  Absolutely YES.  But, it still is a free market.

That's because the "free market" is restricted to Contracts that involve Economic trade.  While courts and laws are predicated upon Contracts that involve the larger arena of social behavior.  Courts have jurisdiction over economic activity, because that is a social behavior.

A completely "free" market has no government interference.  In a Utopian world, arbitration would be provided by "for fee" services with both sides voluntarily submitting to the outcome.  In the real world, arbitration is provided by threat of force or real violence.  Somalia has no government interference, and arbitration is handled with weapons.  If we wish to avoid a completely free market, we will need some form of government.  That doesn't make government good.  It does make certain forms of government desirable.

The Court System in the United States most certainly is not voluntary all participants.  Filing suit against someone presupposes that there are laws above the contract that can be invoked.  Even if it is a law that says, "contracts will be honored or subject to penalty".

So, by recognizing that the free market needs to be subject to the court system, the "free" market has lost some of its freedom of action to some form of government oversight.  I happen to agree with this.  

I am reminded of an old story:
Anecdotal dialogue 
Churchill: Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?
Socialite: My goodness, Mr. Churchill? Well, I suppose? we would have to discuss terms, of course? 
Churchill: Would you sleep with me for five pounds? 
Socialite: Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?! 
Churchill: Madam, we?ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.

People may see the government as a public whore.  But, because it provides a necessary service, we are just haggling over how much to pay it.

David

On Jun 8, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I'll agree with Don here, a free market economy without a court system is anarchy.  I know people who do advocate a full complete free market but they are adamant about there being a government court system to settle contract disputes, protect investors and so forth.  Also the fall of a dictatorship during a war, i.e. Iraq, is not an accurate description of a free market economy either.
> 
> Adam

From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 22:31:54 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:31:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>


On Jun 8, 2010, at 12:03 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free market system?

Not "instead".  Anarchy is the absence of government ( a political condition ) and the free market can operate in the absence of government.  There are those people who claim to be interested in removing the government from the market, so that the "free market" can be restored.  i.e. a return to anarchy.  

> Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?

Some.  Others have a moral compass without external social pressure.  The problem is that lack of law, permits those who are unconcerned with social consequences, to damage the social fabric.  For example, one idiot with a drill can put enough holes in the hull of a boat, to ruin the sailing experience for everyone else on board.  

Do we need to make laws covering the drilling of holes by people on boats in the ocean?  

Sarah Palin says, "drill baby drill".   B.P. said, "okay".  And, that ruined the day for a bunch of people.

> Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually improve things?

Consider the great law giver Moses, who came down from the mountain with "the law", and he was prepared to enforce it.  Do you recall the first thing he did?

Right, he killed people to bring everyone else into line with the law.

Exodus 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

So, if you are going to bring in a new sheriff to town, to enforce the law, start by having laws that most of the people are interested in following.  The United States has laws, and it has the process to revise them.  It has the Constitution to control how laws are created, administered, and judged.  It also has a method to revise the Constitution.  It is a pretty nice system, in part, because it is consistent, and in part, because it can evolve to adapt to new conditions without limited need for revolution or civil war.

> Don 

David




From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun  8 23:02:10 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 23:02:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4BD17F4B-94AA-48A2-85F1-6A118364598C@verizon.net>

Would that be the result of the Liberal media driving out one of their own, for making comments that were not "Politically Correct"?

Oh, wait.  The media drove out an anti-war Liberal for making comments against Israel.

Maybe "liberal media" is a false description?

David  


On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
> 
> ...
> Don



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun  8 23:06:03 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:06:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
In-Reply-To: <13111-4C0EF461-3612@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <13111-4C0EF461-3612@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <B4FDD6C1-2CBD-4CA6-9368-3F8286700E9D@teleport.com>

Is any of the "colored glass" they are finding flat? I found one neat  
old flat-sided bottle in Gales Creek that I cut up and am using in a  
stained glass window.
On Jun 8, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> thanks Walt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 01:22:15 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 01:22:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4BD17F4B-94AA-48A2-85F1-6A118364598C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C0F4F27.000016.03152@DON-B2514E06367>

Don't think so, don't think so and don't think so, but all could be true.

In making her comments, remember that Helen is Semitic too, that for a
reporter of 67 years experience, she demonstrated an astounding lack of
understanding of history of the middle east; Mesopotamia, Arabia, Sheba, Dan
 Nod, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Rome, and Egypt, and that isn't all.

But foremost the reasons why the thirteen tribes of Israel were scattered to
the four winds in the first instance.

All while Palestinians were not even a blip on the map until relatively
recent times.

I think her fall was in part caused by a tendency to suggest revisionist
history. 

Everyone into history of the middle east knows that Israelites were there
for thousands of years.

Don
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/8/2010 11:03:01 PM
To: donkelly;  ] TrForest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenetuth and consequences
 
Would that be the result of the Liberal media driving out one of their own,
for making comments that were not "Politically Correct"?
 
Oh, wait.  The media drove out an anti-war Liberal for making comments
against Israel.
 
Maybe "liberal media" is a false description?
 
David
 
 
On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
 
> ...
> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>
> ...
> Don
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 01:34:39 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 01:34:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  MILITARY QUOTE OF THE DAY
Message-ID: <4C0F521A.00001F.03152@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Funnneeeee
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Velon
Date: 6/8/2010 10:37:03 PM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:,
Subject: Fw: MILITARY QUOTE OF THE DAY
 
 
 

 
 
 
       
Military Quote of the Day
 

 
 

 "When I joined the military it was illegal to be homosexual, then it became
optional. 
I'm getting out before Obama makes it mandatory."                           
                     

  
GySgt Harry Berres, USMC


 
 

 
 



 








No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2924 - Release Date: 06/07/10
11:35:00

 
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From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun  9 06:53:50 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 06:53:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <4C0F4F27.000016.03152@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4BD17F4B-94AA-48A2-85F1-6A118364598C@verizon.net>
	<4C0F4F27.000016.03152@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <5B7705DF-5544-4B85-8037-2AFD73BBE206@teleport.com>

Don:
Various Semitic tribes have been in the ME for thousands of years...  
the Hebrews were merely one of those tribes. And even after they got  
together under Moses et al (especially Al) and started conquering  
cities, they only became a nation with the capture of Jerusalem.  And  
they only ruled the conquered land until they were conquered in their  
own turn. And evicted, and dispersed. And so on.
I myself think that a person is a citizen of the place he was born.  
Meaning that most modern Israelis are, in fact, native Israelis, even  
though the country has only existed since 1948, and that born  
Israelis don't share the "sins of the fathers" and thus don't owe any  
apologies to Palestinians born since 1948. Sympathy and human  
consideration, certainly-- unless said Palestinian is trying to kill  
them.
But the whole problem, again, boils down to the ancient, intolerant  
spirit of the monkey band, and too many people trying to live on too  
little dirt.
WW

On Jun 9, 2010, at 1:22 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Don't think so, don't think so and don't think so, but all could be  
> true.
>
> In making her comments, remember that Helen is Semitic too, that for a
> reporter of 67 years experience, she demonstrated an astounding  
> lack of
> understanding of history of the middle east; Mesopotamia, Arabia,  
> Sheba, Dan
>  Nod, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Rome, and Egypt, and that  
> isn't all.
>
> But foremost the reasons why the thirteen tribes of Israel were  
> scattered to
> the four winds in the first instance.
>
> All while Palestinians were not even a blip on the map until  
> relatively
> recent times.
>
> I think her fall was in part caused by a tendency to suggest  
> revisionist
> history.
>
> Everyone into history of the middle east knows that Israelites were  
> there
> for thousands of years.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: David Morelli
> Date: 6/8/2010 11:03:01 PM
> To: donkelly;  ] TrForest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenetuth and consequences
>
> Would that be the result of the Liberal media driving out one of  
> their own,
> for making comments that were not "Politically Correct"?
>
> Oh, wait.  The media drove out an anti-war Liberal for making comments
> against Israel.
>
> Maybe "liberal media" is a false description?
>
> David
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2010, at 12:58 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Plus, Helen Thomas quits.
>>
>> ...
>> Don<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun  9 08:33:50 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:33:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
In-Reply-To: <BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Law or anarchy?  Hmmmm....this could be a false dichotomy.

With all due respect to lawyer/judge Bob and retired policeman Hoss, and others like them, and with the caveat that I am not a lawyer, it strikes me nevertheless that the law, in and of itself, is not something to be worshipped or exalted.  Instead, it needs to be monitored constantly, judged critically, and recognized for what it often is--the tool of the wealthy and powerful.  (Re this latter, see the many works of Michel Foucault on the "circulation of power").

The law is a plastic entity.  It will take whatever shape it is pushed into.  Who does the pushing?  The weak?  The powerless?  Or those who have the power?

We have countless examples of the law being used to oppress people, to protect the interests of the powerful, to "emiserate" the weak, those without influence or full access to the system that creates and sustains the system.

We need look no further than Nazi Germany.  *All* of the victims of Nazi laws died legally, with the full majesty of the German state behind their legal deaths.  Laws can be used to create what Orlando Patterson calls "social death."  Indeed, the Nazis used US laws to serve as their impetus for Nazi eugenics and the T-4 euthanasia program.  

We should thus not be surprised that US laws have been used to perpetuate legal nightmares:  slavery, Jim Crow, legal restrictions against women, forced sterilizations; we had an entire administration (Reagan's) opposed to the Equal Rights Amendment.  My first wife (who was Japanese) and I were summarily booted out of our apartment in Norfolk, Va., in 1970 due to the miscegenation laws of that state.  This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Martin Luther King knew that there was nothing sacred per se about the law, that laws could be enacted and enforced (sorry, Hoss, it was a Norfolk policeman who enforced the law that cost us our apartment) in such a way that a targeted group can be virtually nullified and made impotent.  He knew that laws could be unjust.  So did Thoreau and Gandhi.  Hence, civil disobedience.

Does a specific law empower only a small group?  Or keep another group from realizing their full human potential?  Are the laws enforced without regard to equity and fairness?  If so, then citizens have to be concerned.

--Mike 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:32 PM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences


On Jun 8, 2010, at 12:03 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free market system?

Not "instead".  Anarchy is the absence of government ( a political condition ) and the free market can operate in the absence of government.  There are those people who claim to be interested in removing the government from the market, so that the "free market" can be restored.  i.e. a return to anarchy.  

> Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?

Some.  Others have a moral compass without external social pressure.  The problem is that lack of law, permits those who are unconcerned with social consequences, to damage the social fabric.  For example, one idiot with a drill can put enough holes in the hull of a boat, to ruin the sailing experience for everyone else on board.  

Do we need to make laws covering the drilling of holes by people on boats in the ocean?  

Sarah Palin says, "drill baby drill".   B.P. said, "okay".  And, that ruined the day for a bunch of people.

> Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually improve things?

Consider the great law giver Moses, who came down from the mountain with "the law", and he was prepared to enforce it.  Do you recall the first thing he did?

Right, he killed people to bring everyone else into line with the law.

Exodus 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

So, if you are going to bring in a new sheriff to town, to enforce the law, start by having laws that most of the people are interested in following.  The United States has laws, and it has the process to revise them.  It has the Constitution to control how laws are created, administered, and judged.  It also has a method to revise the Constitution.  It is a pretty nice system, in part, because it is consistent, and in part, because it can evolve to adapt to new conditions without limited need for revolution or civil war.

> Don 

David



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun  9 09:21:09 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:21:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz <waltw@teleport.com>'s message of Tue,
	8 Jun 2010	23:06:03 -0700
Message-ID: <20101-4C0FBF75-744@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Walt wrote..
is any of the "colored glass" they are finding flat? I found one neat
old flat-sided bottle in Gales Creek that I cut up and am using in a
stained glass window.
=====
yes Walt, as a matter of fact I have quite a bit of broken pieces of
colored glass.  And thanks for the idea.
If you or anyone else wants some, come and get while it lasts, and that
goes for anyone who collects bottles.



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun  9 10:07:19 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:07:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Here's an interesting article from _eSkeptic_ re cell phones and cancer...I hope this can be accessed by those interested:

www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09

--Mike




From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 10:13:03 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:13:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FCB9F.2080004@gmail.com>

I though holding up those AM radios to our ears in the 70's was going to 
give us brain cancer ;-)

Adam

Steele, Mike wrote:
> Here's an interesting article from _eSkeptic_ re cell phones and cancer...I hope this can be accessed by those interested:
>
> www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  9 10:25:17 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:25:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  MILITARY QUOTE OF THE DAY
In-Reply-To: <4C0F521A.00001F.03152@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0F521A.00001F.03152@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02dc01cb07f8$bb1f0fd0$315d2f70$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> > From: Bob Velon
> > 
> > "When I joined the military it was illegal to be
> >  homosexual, then it became optional.  I'm getting
> >  out before Obama makes it mandatory."
> > 
> > GySgt Harry Berres, USMC
> 
> Funnneeeee

Ridiculously homophobic.

Woefully unaware of the actual issues or proposed changes.

Ignorant of the number of homosexuals that have served in the military for
many years, including all the years this marine was in.

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  9 10:25:24 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:25:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>

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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun  9 10:27:27 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:27:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Bob...sorry...I'm getting' ready for retirement and need to find ways to stay alive intellectually.  Just practicing.

:)

--Mike

________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:25 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones

Mike,  you beat me to it! I'm usually the resident e-skeptic on this listserv!!

bob "good source, or no quote" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/9/2010 10:07 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:

Here's an interesting article from _eSkeptic_ re cell phones and cancer...I hope this can be accessed by those interested:



www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09<http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09>



--Mike




From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  9 10:29:27 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:29:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FCF77.8000704@jurislex.com>

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From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  9 10:59:59 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 10:59:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Boy, oh boy, ohhh boy . . . . . . .
Message-ID: <4C0FD69F.5070407@jurislex.com>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 11:43:35 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:43:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

I like the eskeptic site. I gotta get me one of those baloney detection kits
 The cell phone brain cancer fraud, like the global warming fraud, have been
around for years. Glad to finally see a scientifically based research on
that subject. Glad to see that when pigs fly, we could then get brain cancer
from one watt of radiation. Forget the cell phone. What about your microwave
oven at around 1,000 watts?

Thanks Mike

Don  
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/9/2010 10:27:50 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Bob...sorry...I'm getting' ready for retirement and need to find ways to
stay alive intellectually.  Just practicing.
 
:)
 
--Mike
 
________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:25 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Mike,  you beat me to it! I'm usually the resident e-skeptic on this
listserv!!
 
bob "good source, or no quote" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
On 6/9/2010 10:07 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:
 
Here's an interesting article from _eSkeptic_ re cell phones and cancer...I
hope this can be accessed by those interested:
 
 
 
www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09<http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09>
 
 
 
--Mike
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 11:48:09 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:48:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FE1E7.000008.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Another serious scientific question.
 
Can the earth eventually be absorbed by the sun?

The answer might scare you.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/9/2010 10:27:50 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Bob...sorry...I'm getting' ready for retirement and need to find ways to
stay alive intellectually.  Just practicing.
 
:)
 
--Mike
 
________________________________
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Bob Browning
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:25 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Mike,  you beat me to it! I'm usually the resident e-skeptic on this
listserv!!
 
bob "good source, or no quote" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
On 6/9/2010 10:07 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:
 
Here's an interesting article from _eSkeptic_ re cell phones and cancer...I
hope this can be accessed by those interested:
 
 
 
www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09<http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-06-09>
 
 
 
--Mike
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 11:52:18 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:52:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  MILITARY QUOTE OF THE DAY
References: <4C0F521A.00001F.03152@DON-B2514E06367>
	<02dc01cb07f8$bb1f0fd0$315d2f70$@com>
Message-ID: <4C0FE2DF.00000B.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

No changes needed here.

Numbers are immaterial.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/9/2010 10:25:56 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: MILITARY QUOTE OF THE DAY
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> > From: Bob Velon
> >
> > "When I joined the military it was illegal to be
> >  homosexual, then it became optional.  I'm getting
> >  out before Obama makes it mandatory."
> >
> > GySgt Harry Berres, USMC
>
> Funnneeeee
 
Ridiculously homophobic.
 
Woefully unaware of the actual issues or proposed changes.
 
Ignorant of the number of homosexuals that have served in the military for
many years, including all the years this marine was in.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  9 11:54:40 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 11:54:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] More Browning swill . . . .
Message-ID: <4C0FE370.8070001@jurislex.com>

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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  9 12:00:59 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:00:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> I like the eskeptic site. [...]

I do too.

> [...] The cell phone brain cancer fraud,
> like the global warming fraud, have been
> around for years. [...]

I think you use the word "like" in a manner dissimilar to how the rest of
use it.  Either that or you subscribe to the fraudulent claim that global
warming is a fraud.

> [...] Glad to finally see a scientifically based
> research on that subject.

There have been many over the years actually.  The author of the article
references two of the more recent ones.  Coincidentally, champions of the
cell phones cause cancer crowd claim cell phone companies conspire to
control the conclusion of these contemporary controlled cogitations.  It's
difficult to disprove something that didn't happen.

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Wed Jun  9 12:09:17 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:09:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] For those of you with elderly parents and grandparents .
	. .
Message-ID: <4C0FE6DD.1010705@jurislex.com>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 12:16:57 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:16:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
References: <20101-4C0FBF75-744@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4C0FE8A5.00001C.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Works for mosaic coffee table tops as well.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Alan Domenghini
Date: 6/9/2010 9:21:38 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] R J Mann Beverage
 
Walt wrote..
is any of the "colored glass" they are finding flat? I found one neat
old flat-sided bottle in Gales Creek that I cut up and am using in a
stained glass window.
=====
yes Walt, as a matter of fact I have quite a bit of broken pieces of
colored glass.  And thanks for the idea.
If you or anyone else wants some, come and get while it lasts, and that
goes for anyone who collects bottles.
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 12:36:11 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:36:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend is becoming a
habit.

Get enough outsiders into government and some of those laws can be improved,
and perhaps even better than improvement, better enforced.

http://www.newsmax
com/InsideCover/Angle-Wins-Shocker-Reid/2010/06/09/id/361494?s=al&promo_code=
0AD-1

Harry Reid is in the fight of his life, and he earned every bit of this
retribution for dumb things he does.

An effective politician needs two things, honesty and common sense. Reid is
a dud on both tests.

Don

 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/9/2010 8:34:10 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
 
Law or anarchy?  Hmmmm....this could be a false dichotomy.
 
With all due respect to lawyer/judge Bob and retired policeman Hoss, and
others like them, and with the caveat that I am not a lawyer, it strikes me
nevertheless that the law, in and of itself, is not something to be
worshipped or exalted.  Instead, it needs to be monitored constantly, judged
critically, and recognized for what it often is--the tool of the wealthy and
powerful.  (Re this latter, see the many works of Michel Foucault on the 
circulation of power").
 
The law is a plastic entity.  It will take whatever shape it is pushed into.
 Who does the pushing?  The weak?  The powerless?  Or those who have the
power?
 
We have countless examples of the law being used to oppress people, to
protect the interests of the powerful, to "emiserate" the weak, those
without influence or full access to the system that creates and sustains the
system.
 
We need look no further than Nazi Germany.  *All* of the victims of Nazi
laws died legally, with the full majesty of the German state behind their
legal deaths.  Laws can be used to create what Orlando Patterson calls 
social death."  Indeed, the Nazis used US laws to serve as their impetus for
Nazi eugenics and the T-4 euthanasia program.
 
We should thus not be surprised that US laws have been used to perpetuate
legal nightmares:  slavery, Jim Crow, legal restrictions against women,
forced sterilizations; we had an entire administration (Reagan's) opposed to
the Equal Rights Amendment.  My first wife (who was Japanese) and I were
summarily booted out of our apartment in Norfolk, Va., in 1970 due to the
miscegenation laws of that state.  This is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Martin Luther King knew that there was nothing sacred per se about the law,
that laws could be enacted and enforced (sorry, Hoss, it was a Norfolk
policeman who enforced the law that cost us our apartment) in such a way
that a targeted group can be virtually nullified and made impotent.  He knew
that laws could be unjust.  So did Thoreau and Gandhi.  Hence, civil
disobedience.
 
Does a specific law empower only a small group?  Or keep another group from
realizing their full human potential?  Are the laws enforced without regard
to equity and fairness?  If so, then citizens have to be concerned.
 
--Mike
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:32 PM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Truth and consequences
 
 
On Jun 8, 2010, at 12:03 PM, donkelly wrote:
 
> Are you not actually describing anarchy Mike, instead of a free market
system?
 
Not "instead".  Anarchy is the absence of government ( a political condition
) and the free market can operate in the absence of government.  There are
those people who claim to be interested in removing the government from the
market, so that the "free market" can be restored.  i.e. a return to anarchy

 
> Doesn't lack of law often bring out the worst in people?
 
Some.  Others have a moral compass without external social pressure.  The
problem is that lack of law, permits those who are unconcerned with social
consequences, to damage the social fabric.  For example, one idiot with a
drill can put enough holes in the hull of a boat, to ruin the sailing
experience for everyone else on board.
 
Do we need to make laws covering the drilling of holes by people on boats in
the ocean?
 
Sarah Palin says, "drill baby drill".   B.P. said, "okay".  And, that ruined
the day for a bunch of people.
 
> Didn't a new sheriff in town, who enforced the law, actually improve
things?
 
Consider the great law giver Moses, who came down from the mountain with 
the law", and he was prepared to enforce it.  Do you recall the first thing
he did?
 
Right, he killed people to bring everyone else into line with the law.
 
Exodus 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses:
and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
 
So, if you are going to bring in a new sheriff to town, to enforce the law,
start by having laws that most of the people are interested in following. 
The United States has laws, and it has the process to revise them.  It has
the Constitution to control how laws are created, administered, and judged. 
It also has a method to revise the Constitution.  It is a pretty nice system
 in part, because it is consistent, and in part, because it can evolve to
adapt to new conditions without limited need for revolution or civil war.
 
> Don
 
David
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  9 13:55:36 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:55:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character
Message-ID: <033e01cb0816$1cdadfc0$56909f40$@com>

When does a little gaff like Obama's recent "ass to kick" comment represent
the amount of distaste he has for something?  

When does this sort of little gaff represent something actually out of
character for someone like Obama and end up being more of a distraction than
anything?

I experienced it as forced and out of character.  Realizing he's human and a
far more gentle, mellow creature than many (especially his detractors), I
understand that this probably was his attempt to "turn it up a notch" and
show how upset he is about the BP situation.  I do think that this sort of
language is out of character for a president, but it's certainly not the
first president to use colorful invective and I certainly think it pales in
comparison to the sort of "fire & brimstone" rhetoric of other charismatic
leaders of past and present.

What are others thoughts on this situation?

Jeff

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Obama Ups Rhetoric Over Gulf Oil Spill
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127575672

June 8, 2010 with host Robert Siegel on All Things Considered

ROBERT SIEGEL, host:  Many commentators have criticized President Obama for
showing too much cool, too little anger in the face of the Gulf of Mexico
oil spill. New York Times columnist Tom Friedman urged him to be as
uncomprehending of BP's behavior as he says his daughter Malia is. Filmmaker
Spike Lee urged him to explode - if there's any one time to go off, he said,
this is it because this is a disaster. 

Well, this morning on the "The Today Show," NBC's Matt Lauer questioned the
president, largely about the emotional tenor of his public remarks on the
spill. 

Mr. Matt LAUER (Co-Host, "The Today Show"): This is not the time to meet
with experts and advisers. This is a time to spend more time in the Gulf and
- I never thought I'd say this to a president - but kick some butt. 

SIEGEL: And President Obama replied at one point, picking up on Lauer's
image and making it a little coarser. 

President BARACK OBAMA: I dont sit around just talking to experts because
this is a college seminar. We talk to these folks because they potentially
have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick. 

SIEGEL: But was the tone of the president's response in welcomed harmony
with public sentiment? Or was it an off key moment at odds with his own
temperament? 

Well, Joel Klein of "Time" magazine has written about more than one
president's temperament. And he joins us right now to talk about this. Hi. 

Mr. JOEL KLEIN (Columnist, "Time" Magazine): Good to be here, Robert. 

SIEGEL: What do you make of Barack Obama's kick-ass moment? 

Mr. KLEIN: Hmm. I think it was out of character for him, although I speak as
someone pleading guilty to having said that he needs to be more vehement at
times, not just publicly but within his administration, as well. 

The problem here is that in the midst of a completely incomprehensible
story, I mean, the technology is incomprehensible, the environmental damage
is incomprehensible, this is something thats comprehensible. And so, it's
going to get a lot more attention than it deserves. Although when presidents
have these little gafflets they tend to blow up pretty quickly. 

SIEGEL: What are some past presidential remarks this made you think of? 

Mr. KLEIN: Well, I mean there are several kinds of gaffs that presidents
utter and usually they reveal something about the president's personality.
Like when Bill Clinton says it depends on what your definition is, is... 

SIEGEL: Is, is. Right, yeah. 

Mr. KLEIN: ...you realize this is a guy who tried to talk his way out of
everything his entire life. Right? 

SIEGEL: Mm-hmm. 

Mr. KLEIN: And a more serious one, a far more serious one, was when George
W. Bush said that the Iraqi insurgency should bring it on if they wanted to,
you know, fight us in Iraq. And thats something that no commander in the
field would ever wish on his troops, to have the enemy fire on them. And it
showed how inexperienced he was with serious military matters. 

SIEGEL: There was something instant on the kick-ass remark that the
president had been too vulgar, this was demeaning to the office. At least a
couple of people online had commentaries to that effect. You think so? 

Mr. KLEIN: I think Harry Truman probably would not think so. There are
precedents for this. I think that Andrew Jackson probably knew his way
around a cuss word or two. It was crude and it was un-Obama-like. And so,
therefore there will be some embarrassment attached to it. And there will be
a ton - an oil spill of commentary surrounding it. 

(Soundbite of laughter) 

SIEGEL: When Bill Clinton was president, it was often said those whove been
in with him in private know the guy has a temper and he can really get
angry, and he's not going to show that when he's campaigning or when he's
speaking to the public. With Barack Obama, they say: No drama Obama. Do we
think there is a hidden Barack Obama who gets angry and screams at people
and loses his temper or it's just not his personality? What do you think? 

Mr. KLEIN: Well, I've seen the president get testy in response to questions
that I've asked. But from what I hear from the inside, this is a guy who not
only doesnt vent all that much himself but he disapproves of venting in all
forms, even when it's praise for him. 

The best story was the day - the morning he won the Nobel Peace Prize and he
goes into the National Security Council meeting on Afghanistan. Obama says,
now, the first item on our agenda today is - and not one of the people in
the room said, congratulations, Mr. President, because they had already
internalized his value system. They knew that he hated praise like that. 

It is - I've never seen anything like this before in politics. It's
fascinating. I dont know how it sells to the public. But at this point, I
dont care. It's really who he is. 

SIEGEL: Joe Klein of "Time" magazine, thank you very much. 

Mr. KLEIN: My pleasure. 


From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun  9 14:01:50 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A78F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

He's in a lose-lose situation.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Sent: June 09, 2010 1:55 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character


When does a little gaff like Obama's recent "ass to kick" comment represent
the amount of distaste he has for something?

When does this sort of little gaff represent something actually out of
character for someone like Obama and end up being more of a distraction than
anything?

I experienced it as forced and out of character.  Realizing he's human and a
far more gentle, mellow creature than many (especially his detractors), I
understand that this probably was his attempt to "turn it up a notch" and
show how upset he is about the BP situation.  I do think that this sort of
language is out of character for a president, but it's certainly not the
first president to use colorful invective and I certainly think it pales in
comparison to the sort of "fire & brimstone" rhetoric of other charismatic
leaders of past and present.

What are others thoughts on this situation?

Jeff

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Obama Ups Rhetoric Over Gulf Oil Spill
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127575672

June 8, 2010 with host Robert Siegel on All Things Considered

ROBERT SIEGEL, host:  Many commentators have criticized President Obama for
showing too much cool, too little anger in the face of the Gulf of Mexico
oil spill. New York Times columnist Tom Friedman urged him to be as
uncomprehending of BP's behavior as he says his daughter Malia is. Filmmaker
Spike Lee urged him to explode - if there's any one time to go off, he said,
this is it because this is a disaster.

Well, this morning on the "The Today Show," NBC's Matt Lauer questioned the
president, largely about the emotional tenor of his public remarks on the
spill.

Mr. Matt LAUER (Co-Host, "The Today Show"): This is not the time to meet
with experts and advisers. This is a time to spend more time in the Gulf and
- I never thought I'd say this to a president - but kick some butt.

SIEGEL: And President Obama replied at one point, picking up on Lauer's
image and making it a little coarser.

President BARACK OBAMA: I dont sit around just talking to experts because
this is a college seminar. We talk to these folks because they potentially
have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick.

SIEGEL: But was the tone of the president's response in welcomed harmony
with public sentiment? Or was it an off key moment at odds with his own
temperament?

Well, Joel Klein of "Time" magazine has written about more than one
president's temperament. And he joins us right now to talk about this. Hi.

Mr. JOEL KLEIN (Columnist, "Time" Magazine): Good to be here, Robert.

SIEGEL: What do you make of Barack Obama's kick-ass moment?

Mr. KLEIN: Hmm. I think it was out of character for him, although I speak as
someone pleading guilty to having said that he needs to be more vehement at
times, not just publicly but within his administration, as well.

The problem here is that in the midst of a completely incomprehensible
story, I mean, the technology is incomprehensible, the environmental damage
is incomprehensible, this is something thats comprehensible. And so, it's
going to get a lot more attention than it deserves. Although when presidents
have these little gafflets they tend to blow up pretty quickly.

SIEGEL: What are some past presidential remarks this made you think of?

Mr. KLEIN: Well, I mean there are several kinds of gaffs that presidents
utter and usually they reveal something about the president's personality.
Like when Bill Clinton says it depends on what your definition is, is...

SIEGEL: Is, is. Right, yeah.

Mr. KLEIN: ...you realize this is a guy who tried to talk his way out of
everything his entire life. Right?

SIEGEL: Mm-hmm.

Mr. KLEIN: And a more serious one, a far more serious one, was when George
W. Bush said that the Iraqi insurgency should bring it on if they wanted to,
you know, fight us in Iraq. And thats something that no commander in the
field would ever wish on his troops, to have the enemy fire on them. And it
showed how inexperienced he was with serious military matters.

SIEGEL: There was something instant on the kick-ass remark that the
president had been too vulgar, this was demeaning to the office. At least a
couple of people online had commentaries to that effect. You think so?

Mr. KLEIN: I think Harry Truman probably would not think so. There are
precedents for this. I think that Andrew Jackson probably knew his way
around a cuss word or two. It was crude and it was un-Obama-like. And so,
therefore there will be some embarrassment attached to it. And there will be
a ton - an oil spill of commentary surrounding it.

(Soundbite of laughter)

SIEGEL: When Bill Clinton was president, it was often said those whove been
in with him in private know the guy has a temper and he can really get
angry, and he's not going to show that when he's campaigning or when he's
speaking to the public. With Barack Obama, they say: No drama Obama. Do we
think there is a hidden Barack Obama who gets angry and screams at people
and loses his temper or it's just not his personality? What do you think?

Mr. KLEIN: Well, I've seen the president get testy in response to questions
that I've asked. But from what I hear from the inside, this is a guy who not
only doesnt vent all that much himself but he disapproves of venting in all
forms, even when it's praise for him.

The best story was the day - the morning he won the Nobel Peace Prize and he
goes into the National Security Council meeting on Afghanistan. Obama says,
now, the first item on our agenda today is - and not one of the people in
the room said, congratulations, Mr. President, because they had already
internalized his value system. They knew that he hated praise like that.

It is - I've never seen anything like this before in politics. It's
fascinating. I dont know how it sells to the public. But at this point, I
dont care. It's really who he is.

SIEGEL: Joe Klein of "Time" magazine, thank you very much.

Mr. KLEIN: My pleasure.

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 14:18:28 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:18:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
Message-ID: <4C100520.000042.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Sure is hard Jeff, like global warming that never happened, but when they
realized that lie would not fly, like pigs in any case, they changed the
name of their movement to climate change.

Like the four seasons of the year, climate change is nothing scientifically
new. Even the cyclic trends are not new. 

If we had another mini ice age lasting for five years, that would not be new


What is new is the discovered they could get rich off of the scam. 

Don 
 
PS: "The Declaration of Independence states: 'To secure these rights,
governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the
consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes
destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to
abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such
principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem
most likely to affect their safety and happiness,'" Vallely said in his
remarks. 

 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/9/2010 12:01:08 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> I like the eskeptic site. [...]
 
I do too.
 
> [...] The cell phone brain cancer fraud,
> like the global warming fraud, have been
> around for years. [...]
 
I think you use the word "like" in a manner dissimilar to how the rest of
use it.  Either that or you subscribe to the fraudulent claim that global
warming is a fraud.
 
> [...] Glad to finally see a scientifically based
> research on that subject.
 
There have been many over the years actually.  The author of the article
references two of the more recent ones.  Coincidentally, champions of the
cell phones cause cancer crowd claim cell phone companies conspire to
control the conclusion of these contemporary controlled cogitations.  It's
difficult to disprove something that didn't happen.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 14:35:12 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:35:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character
References: <033e01cb0816$1cdadfc0$56909f40$@com>
Message-ID: <4C100906.00004A.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Appears news wise to be the same mentality that attacked Sarah Palin's
family.

Plenty of dirty shorts to go around.

But don't ignore that his "little gaffs" is growing exponentially into a
mountain of gaffs.

What a dufus.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/9/2010 1:55:45 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character
 
When does a little gaff like Obama's recent "ass to kick" comment represent
the amount of distaste he has for something?
 
When does this sort of little gaff represent something actually out of
character for someone like Obama and end up being more of a distraction than
anything?
 
I experienced it as forced and out of character.  Realizing he's human and a
far more gentle, mellow creature than many (especially his detractors), I
understand that this probably was his attempt to "turn it up a notch" and
show how upset he is about the BP situation.  I do think that this sort of
language is out of character for a president, but it's certainly not the
first president to use colorful invective and I certainly think it pales in
comparison to the sort of "fire & brimstone" rhetoric of other charismatic
leaders of past and present.
 
What are others thoughts on this situation?
 
Jeff
 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
Obama Ups Rhetoric Over Gulf Oil Spill
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127575672
 
June 8, 2010 with host Robert Siegel on All Things Considered
 
ROBERT SIEGEL, host:  Many commentators have criticized President Obama for
showing too much cool, too little anger in the face of the Gulf of Mexico
oil spill. New York Times columnist Tom Friedman urged him to be as
uncomprehending of BP's behavior as he says his daughter Malia is. Filmmaker
Spike Lee urged him to explode - if there's any one time to go off, he said,
this is it because this is a disaster.
 
Well, this morning on the "The Today Show," NBC's Matt Lauer questioned the
president, largely about the emotional tenor of his public remarks on the
spill.
 
Mr. Matt LAUER (Co-Host, "The Today Show"): This is not the time to meet
with experts and advisers. This is a time to spend more time in the Gulf and
- I never thought I'd say this to a president - but kick some butt.
 
SIEGEL: And President Obama replied at one point, picking up on Lauer's
image and making it a little coarser.
 
President BARACK OBAMA: I dont sit around just talking to experts because
this is a college seminar. We talk to these folks because they potentially
have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick.
 
SIEGEL: But was the tone of the president's response in welcomed harmony
with public sentiment? Or was it an off key moment at odds with his own
temperament?
 
Well, Joel Klein of "Time" magazine has written about more than one
president's temperament. And he joins us right now to talk about this. Hi.
 
Mr. JOEL KLEIN (Columnist, "Time" Magazine): Good to be here, Robert.
 
SIEGEL: What do you make of Barack Obama's kick-ass moment?
 
Mr. KLEIN: Hmm. I think it was out of character for him, although I speak as
someone pleading guilty to having said that he needs to be more vehement at
times, not just publicly but within his administration, as well.
 
The problem here is that in the midst of a completely incomprehensible
story, I mean, the technology is incomprehensible, the environmental damage
is incomprehensible, this is something thats comprehensible. And so, it's
going to get a lot more attention than it deserves. Although when presidents
have these little gafflets they tend to blow up pretty quickly.
 
SIEGEL: What are some past presidential remarks this made you think of?
 
Mr. KLEIN: Well, I mean there are several kinds of gaffs that presidents
utter and usually they reveal something about the president's personality.
Like when Bill Clinton says it depends on what your definition is, is...
 
SIEGEL: Is, is. Right, yeah.
 
Mr. KLEIN: ...you realize this is a guy who tried to talk his way out of
everything his entire life. Right?
 
SIEGEL: Mm-hmm.
 
Mr. KLEIN: And a more serious one, a far more serious one, was when George
W. Bush said that the Iraqi insurgency should bring it on if they wanted to,
you know, fight us in Iraq. And thats something that no commander in the
field would ever wish on his troops, to have the enemy fire on them. And it
showed how inexperienced he was with serious military matters.
 
SIEGEL: There was something instant on the kick-ass remark that the
president had been too vulgar, this was demeaning to the office. At least a
couple of people online had commentaries to that effect. You think so?
 
Mr. KLEIN: I think Harry Truman probably would not think so. There are
precedents for this. I think that Andrew Jackson probably knew his way
around a cuss word or two. It was crude and it was un-Obama-like. And so,
therefore there will be some embarrassment attached to it. And there will be
a ton - an oil spill of commentary surrounding it.
 
(Soundbite of laughter)
 
SIEGEL: When Bill Clinton was president, it was often said those whove been
in with him in private know the guy has a temper and he can really get
angry, and he's not going to show that when he's campaigning or when he's
speaking to the public. With Barack Obama, they say: No drama Obama. Do we
think there is a hidden Barack Obama who gets angry and screams at people
and loses his temper or it's just not his personality? What do you think?
 
Mr. KLEIN: Well, I've seen the president get testy in response to questions
that I've asked. But from what I hear from the inside, this is a guy who not
only doesnt vent all that much himself but he disapproves of venting in all
forms, even when it's praise for him.
 
The best story was the day - the morning he won the Nobel Peace Prize and he
goes into the National Security Council meeting on Afghanistan. Obama says,
now, the first item on our agenda today is - and not one of the people in
the room said, congratulations, Mr. President, because they had already
internalized his value system. They knew that he hated praise like that.
 
It is - I've never seen anything like this before in politics. It's
fascinating. I dont know how it sells to the public. But at this point, I
dont care. It's really who he is.
 
SIEGEL: Joe Klein of "Time" magazine, thank you very much.
 
Mr. KLEIN: My pleasure.
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 15:24:29 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:24:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Out of character
In-Reply-To: <033e01cb0816$1cdadfc0$56909f40$@com>
References: <033e01cb0816$1cdadfc0$56909f40$@com>
Message-ID: <24EBC1E7-D73C-43C6-A7CA-48884A847C79@verizon.net>

It won't be long before some one writes a movie about a president who  
takes office:
*with two wars raging
*with the economy driven off a cliff
*with the opposition party vowing to take the country down rather  
than cooperate to fix things

and then....

there will be an unprecedented disaster like a volcano of oil spewing  
from the ocean floor.

The only question will be whether this future movie will be a tragedy  
or a bad parody.

Yes, the last comment was out of character and it would have been  
better if he had put it into his own words.
But once the noise dies down it won't be the line that people  
remember. The lines that will be remembered will come in a few weeks  
when the oil really starts impacting Florida and swoops around the  
currents and up the east coast. (Or when the first hurricane hits and  
an oil/water/surfactant mix starts raining down on Ohio.)

Then the rhetoric will be more heart felt because it will have moved  
beyond politics.
As big as this crisis  is already for the people of the gulf, I don't  
think it has reached its critical peak for the country as a whole yet.

Katie



On Jun 9, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> When does a little gaff like Obama's recent "ass to kick" comment  
> represent
> the amount of distaste he has for something?
>
> When does this sort of little gaff represent something actually out of
> character for someone like Obama and end up being more of a  
> distraction than
> anything?
>
> I experienced it as forced and out of character.  Realizing he's  
> human and a
> far more gentle, mellow creature than many (especially his  
> detractors), I
> understand that this probably was his attempt to "turn it up a  
> notch" and
> show how upset he is about the BP situation.  I do think that this  
> sort of
> language is out of character for a president, but it's certainly  
> not the
> first president to use colorful invective and I certainly think it  
> pales in
> comparison to the sort of "fire & brimstone" rhetoric of other  
> charismatic
> leaders of past and present.
>
> What are others thoughts on this situation?
>
> Jeff
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Obama Ups Rhetoric Over Gulf Oil Spill
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127575672
>
> June 8, 2010 with host Robert Siegel on All Things Considered
>
> ROBERT SIEGEL, host:  Many commentators have criticized President  
> Obama for
> showing too much cool, too little anger in the face of the Gulf of  
> Mexico
> oil spill. New York Times columnist Tom Friedman urged him to be as
> uncomprehending of BP's behavior as he says his daughter Malia is.  
> Filmmaker
> Spike Lee urged him to explode - if there's any one time to go off,  
> he said,
> this is it because this is a disaster.
>
> Well, this morning on the "The Today Show," NBC's Matt Lauer  
> questioned the
> president, largely about the emotional tenor of his public remarks  
> on the
> spill.
>
> Mr. Matt LAUER (Co-Host, "The Today Show"): This is not the time to  
> meet
> with experts and advisers. This is a time to spend more time in the  
> Gulf and
> - I never thought I'd say this to a president - but kick some butt.
>
> SIEGEL: And President Obama replied at one point, picking up on  
> Lauer's
> image and making it a little coarser.
>
> President BARACK OBAMA: I dont sit around just talking to experts  
> because
> this is a college seminar. We talk to these folks because they  
> potentially
> have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick.
>
> SIEGEL: But was the tone of the president's response in welcomed  
> harmony
> with public sentiment? Or was it an off key moment at odds with his  
> own
> temperament?
>
> Well, Joel Klein of "Time" magazine has written about more than one
> president's temperament. And he joins us right now to talk about  
> this. Hi.
>
> Mr. JOEL KLEIN (Columnist, "Time" Magazine): Good to be here, Robert.
>
> SIEGEL: What do you make of Barack Obama's kick-ass moment?
>
> Mr. KLEIN: Hmm. I think it was out of character for him, although I  
> speak as
> someone pleading guilty to having said that he needs to be more  
> vehement at
> times, not just publicly but within his administration, as well.
>
> The problem here is that in the midst of a completely incomprehensible
> story, I mean, the technology is incomprehensible, the  
> environmental damage
> is incomprehensible, this is something thats comprehensible. And  
> so, it's
> going to get a lot more attention than it deserves. Although when  
> presidents
> have these little gafflets they tend to blow up pretty quickly.
>
> SIEGEL: What are some past presidential remarks this made you think  
> of?
>
> Mr. KLEIN: Well, I mean there are several kinds of gaffs that  
> presidents
> utter and usually they reveal something about the president's  
> personality.
> Like when Bill Clinton says it depends on what your definition is,  
> is...
>
> SIEGEL: Is, is. Right, yeah.
>
> Mr. KLEIN: ...you realize this is a guy who tried to talk his way  
> out of
> everything his entire life. Right?
>
> SIEGEL: Mm-hmm.
>
> Mr. KLEIN: And a more serious one, a far more serious one, was when  
> George
> W. Bush said that the Iraqi insurgency should bring it on if they  
> wanted to,
> you know, fight us in Iraq. And thats something that no commander  
> in the
> field would ever wish on his troops, to have the enemy fire on  
> them. And it
> showed how inexperienced he was with serious military matters.
>
> SIEGEL: There was something instant on the kick-ass remark that the
> president had been too vulgar, this was demeaning to the office. At  
> least a
> couple of people online had commentaries to that effect. You think so?
>
> Mr. KLEIN: I think Harry Truman probably would not think so. There are
> precedents for this. I think that Andrew Jackson probably knew his way
> around a cuss word or two. It was crude and it was un-Obama-like.  
> And so,
> therefore there will be some embarrassment attached to it. And  
> there will be
> a ton - an oil spill of commentary surrounding it.
>
> (Soundbite of laughter)
>
> SIEGEL: When Bill Clinton was president, it was often said those  
> whove been
> in with him in private know the guy has a temper and he can really get
> angry, and he's not going to show that when he's campaigning or  
> when he's
> speaking to the public. With Barack Obama, they say: No drama  
> Obama. Do we
> think there is a hidden Barack Obama who gets angry and screams at  
> people
> and loses his temper or it's just not his personality? What do you  
> think?
>
> Mr. KLEIN: Well, I've seen the president get testy in response to  
> questions
> that I've asked. But from what I hear from the inside, this is a  
> guy who not
> only doesnt vent all that much himself but he disapproves of  
> venting in all
> forms, even when it's praise for him.
>
> The best story was the day - the morning he won the Nobel Peace  
> Prize and he
> goes into the National Security Council meeting on Afghanistan.  
> Obama says,
> now, the first item on our agenda today is - and not one of the  
> people in
> the room said, congratulations, Mr. President, because they had  
> already
> internalized his value system. They knew that he hated praise like  
> that.
>
> It is - I've never seen anything like this before in politics. It's
> fascinating. I dont know how it sells to the public. But at this  
> point, I
> dont care. It's really who he is.
>
> SIEGEL: Joe Klein of "Time" magazine, thank you very much.
>
> Mr. KLEIN: My pleasure.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  9 15:25:33 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:25:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle (was: Truth and consequences)
In-Reply-To: <4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
> is becoming a habit.

This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.

For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner" like
Rand Paul.

Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a time coming
back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.

Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face, I don't
know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.

Some of her problem issues:

 - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
 - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
   legislation that placed caps on non-economic
   damages, in all tort actions"
 - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
 - Pro Big Coal
 - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
   tax associated with it, meaning she's not
   willing to make any sort of compromise to get
   things her constituents need.
 - Of course, pro Big Military
 - Pro alcohol prohibition
 - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
   work solely with other countries.
 - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
   (read: costly)
 - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
   for passing tax increases, one of the things
   that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
 - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
   requirement for passing spending increases
 - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
 - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
   property taxes
 - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
 - Obviously pro-life
 - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
   individuals campaigning should be in charge.

I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many Republicans
see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX help,
but I don't see it happening in November.



From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 15:32:30 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:32:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle (was: Truth and consequences)
In-Reply-To: <036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
Message-ID: <20F7719F-58F7-4C96-9CB3-DC7B0D7426EE@verizon.net>

Angle is also very interesting in privatizing social security.
 From all reports this nominee is good news for Harry Reid.

Katie


On Jun 9, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
>> is becoming a habit.
>
> This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.
>
> For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner"  
> like
> Rand Paul.
>
> Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a  
> time coming
> back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.
>
> Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face,  
> I don't
> know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.
>
> Some of her problem issues:
>
>  - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
>  - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
>    legislation that placed caps on non-economic
>    damages, in all tort actions"
>  - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
>  - Pro Big Coal
>  - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
>    tax associated with it, meaning she's not
>    willing to make any sort of compromise to get
>    things her constituents need.
>  - Of course, pro Big Military
>  - Pro alcohol prohibition
>  - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
>    work solely with other countries.
>  - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
>    (read: costly)
>  - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
>    for passing tax increases, one of the things
>    that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
>  - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
>    requirement for passing spending increases
>  - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
>  - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
>    property taxes
>  - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
>  - Obviously pro-life
>  - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
>    individuals campaigning should be in charge.
>
> I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many  
> Republicans
> see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX  
> help,
> but I don't see it happening in November.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun  9 15:55:39 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:55:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C100520.000042.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
	<4C100520.000042.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <037301cb0826$e1ec4b90$a5c4e2b0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Sure is hard Jeff, like global warming that never happened,
> but when they realized that lie would not fly, like pigs in
> any case, they changed the name of their movement to climate
> change.

Absolute nonsense.  Both terms have been used since the idea was initially
proposed in the 1970s.  Even to this day both terms get about equal usage.
However, these terms are not synomous.  The term "global warming" means the
temperature increases, while the term "climate change" means that the
climate has been changed.  Therefore, "global warming" is a subset of
"climate change", technically.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/climate_by_any_other_name.html

Label usage aside, there is still plenty of evidence to indicate that these
are very real theories with very real consequences.

> What is new is the discovered they could get rich
> off of the scam.

This "scam" has been around much longer than the handful of years the "get
rich off of [it]" suggestions have been.  Someone looking to profit from it
doesn't mean it isn't legitimate.  It also doesn't mean that competent
scientists (as a group) working in the field of climate change would
intentionally skew their findings to increase that profit for others.
Further, you're almost certainly taking a single event (dubbed
"climategate") that was blown out of proportions and had several
individuals' private remarks to each other and their own peculiar,
field-specific word usage twisted to look nefarious as some sort of
revelation that the entire theory of climate change is wrong.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 16:19:27 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 16:19:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle (was: Truth and consequences)
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C102176.00005C.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Sharron Angle and and Sue Lowden are leading the polls in the Republican
Senate race.  Sharron Angle is favored by the Tea Party.
So who?
Sharron won the vote, and the Patriots groups originally supported Sue
Lowden. The change came fairly rapidly and I do not know why the Tea Party
moved from Sue to Sharron, especially after Harry said he would rather
compete with Sharron.
I supported Sue to the end, but what do I know. Split votes between two good
people could mean trouble in the end. It means the bad rich guy could win.
Don
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From obrzl at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 17:01:45 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:01:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] PU bedliner
Message-ID: <30589816.372556.1276128106080.JavaMail.root@vznit170062>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 17:08:39 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 17:08:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
	<4C100520.000042.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<037301cb0826$e1ec4b90$a5c4e2b0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C102D07.000072.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Both names are are "absolute nonsense".

The earth goes through cyclical changes, wet or dry, hot or cold, and man
caused none of that.

It's not rocket science. 

Where do I sign up for a huge government paycheck? I study the weather. I
can figure out how cows contribute to green house gasses. Just sign me up.

By the by, has anyone heard of Red Apple. Inc. 

Don   
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/9/2010 3:55:48 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Sure is hard Jeff, like global warming that never happened,
> but when they realized that lie would not fly, like pigs in
> any case, they changed the name of their movement to climate
> change.
 
Absolute nonsense.  Both terms have been used since the idea was initially
proposed in the 1970s.  Even to this day both terms get about equal usage.
However, these terms are not synomous.  The term "global warming" means the
temperature increases, while the term "climate change" means that the
climate has been changed.  Therefore, "global warming" is a subset of
"climate change", technically.
 
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/climate_by_any_other_name.html
 
Label usage aside, there is still plenty of evidence to indicate that these
are very real theories with very real consequences.
 
> What is new is the discovered they could get rich
> off of the scam.
 
This "scam" has been around much longer than the handful of years the "get
rich off of [it]" suggestions have been.  Someone looking to profit from it
doesn't mean it isn't legitimate.  It also doesn't mean that competent
scientists (as a group) working in the field of climate change would
intentionally skew their findings to increase that profit for others.
Further, you're almost certainly taking a single event (dubbed
"climategate") that was blown out of proportions and had several
individuals' private remarks to each other and their own peculiar,
field-specific word usage twisted to look nefarious as some sort of
revelation that the entire theory of climate change is wrong.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 18:35:47 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 18:35:47 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Speaking of the devil.
Message-ID: <4C104159.000095.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Ron Paul just chimed in, with some tough talk.

Don

From: Ron Paul
Date: 6/9/2010 5:10:52 PM
To: Don Kelly
Subject: Unbelievable...
     



Dear Don,

Big Government took a huge leap forward recently. And you and I will suffer
the consequences unless we take action today.

You see, the statists look for every opportunity to gain more power over our
lives, and they found another one in the recently passed ObamaCare scheme.

It is a huge step toward a full takeover of our personal medical decisions,
as well as a massive tax increase and a huge loss of liberty. It will also
cause further destruction to our already-fragile economy.

I?m not going to let this happen without a fight.

A fight to the end.

That?s why I?ve introduced H.R. 4995, my END THE MANDATE Act, to eliminate
the mandate requiring Americans to carry government-approved health
insurance.

I?m asking you to join the battle today. Please read the below message from
Campaign for Liberty President John Tate.

Campaign for Liberty has a great plan to help me win this fight, but they
are going to need every Patriot in our Revolution to join them.

I trust you?ll find this plan worthy of your time and support.

In Liberty,


Congressman Ron Paul
 
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 21:55:29 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 21:55:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
Message-ID: <1D3B5D12-1EB5-4A64-9684-EDDDD56CE4B6@verizon.net>

Sometimes the value of an article is in the responses.   I offer two of them.

Edward Schwieterman says:  June 9, 2010 at 4:39 am
There is a well-documented mechanism for tissue damage due to cell phone use; however, it involves simultaneous use of an automobile.

msagen says: June 9, 2010 at 6:27 am
This physicist speaks like a physicist, not like a biologist. Just his analysis of the two studies, about which he appears to know little,is enough to disqualify him from being taken seriously, at least by anyone who has actually followed and evaluated those studies. Appendix 2 of the Interphone Study, an analysis done when they tried to correct for the case-control mismatching, indicated doubling and quadrupling of some tumors among heavy users (read: today?s average user)as compared with light users. Didn?t see Appendix 2? No wonder?it was not published with the study in the journal; you had to download it separately?a compromise necessitated to reach consensus and get this study published after a five year delay.


The other observation was that energy transport by microwaves is qualitatively different from energy transport by infrared heating or thermal conduction.  e.g. The cooking pattern of a steak is different depending upon whether the method used is microwave, broiler or boiling water.  In thermal transmission, the epidermis, bone and hair all share in the heating experience, while in microwave the water within the cell receives the heating effect.  While the AVERAGE heat for that part of the body is equivalent, the local heat deposited near the nucleus can vary.

The last observation was that there was indication of increased risk among high cell phone users, and that the test's "high cell phone user" would be the current "moderate" cell phone user.

The energy deposition is related to the distance from the antenna, so the part of the brain nearest the ear would be most affected.  I believe it is the Temporal Lobe which is associated with language, speech and memory.

David

On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> 
>> [...] Glad to finally see a scientifically based research on that subject.
> 
> There have been many over the years actually.  The author of the article references two of the more recent ones.  Coincidentally, champions of the cell phones cause cancer crowd claim cell phone companies conspire to control the conclusion of these contemporary controlled cogitations.  It's difficult to disprove something that didn't happen.
> 
> Jeff

From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 23:04:58 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 23:04:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <7071B827-185B-46EA-A729-752A991D74FE@verizon.net>

Review the radiation rules.  
http://www.vertical-visions.com/radiation.php

( funny site.  They discount the danger from microwave radiation.  And they jump off of radio towers for fun.  )

Energy hitting your body depends upon antenna shape and distance from the antenna.

Energy from a flat plate antenna is constant with distance. = 1W (if the distance is less than the width of the antenna)

Energy from a linear antenna is inverse with the distance. = 1W/r (if the distance is less than the length of the antenna)

Energy from a point source is inverse square of the distance. = 1W/(r*r) (when the distance is greater than the greatest dimension of the antenna)

For a 1 cm x 1 cm antenna: 1W at 1 cm, has roughly the same impact as 4 W at 2 cm,  25 W at 5 cm, 900 W at 30 cm, or 1600 W at 40 cm 

Depending upon the size and shape of the antenna, holding a cell phone to your ear gives a similar dose **per square cm** as standing 16 inches from an unshielded microwave oven.  
Note: 
your oven IS shielded, 
and the area exposed by a microwave would be a 1000 times larger than the area impacted by the cell phone.

David

On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:43 AM, donkelly wrote:

> ... Forget the cell phone. What about your microwave oven at around 1,000 watts?
> 
> Don  



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 23:10:15 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 23:10:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
	<1D3B5D12-1EB5-4A64-9684-EDDDD56CE4B6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1081C0.0000B2.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Amen to that.......and good use of the law to protect us, whether we want it
or not.<GRIN> 

Seat belt use has also been proven to reduce injuries in auto accidents. So
another good use of a law.
 
Don 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/9/2010 9:56:43 PM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
 
Sometimes the value of an article is in the responses.   I offer two of them

 
Edward Schwieterman says:  June 9, 2010 at 4:39 am
There is a well-documented mechanism for tissue damage due to cell phone use
 however, it involves simultaneous use of an automobile.
 
msagen says: June 9, 2010 at 6:27 am
This physicist speaks like a physicist, not like a biologist. Just his
analysis of the two studies, about which he appears to know little,is enough
to disqualify him from being taken seriously, at least by anyone who has
actually followed and evaluated those studies. Appendix 2 of the Interphone
Study, an analysis done when they tried to correct for the case-control
mismatching, indicated doubling and quadrupling of some tumors among heavy
users (read: today?s average user)as compared with light users. Didn?t see
Appendix 2? No wonder?it was not published with the study in the journal;
you had to download it separately?a compromise necessitated to reach
consensus and get this study published after a five year delay.
 
 
The other observation was that energy transport by microwaves is
qualitatively different from energy transport by infrared heating or thermal
conduction.  e.g. The cooking pattern of a steak is different depending upon
whether the method used is microwave, broiler or boiling water.  In thermal
transmission, the epidermis, bone and hair all share in the heating
experience, while in microwave the water within the cell receives the
heating effect.  While the AVERAGE heat for that part of the body is
equivalent, the local heat deposited near the nucleus can vary.
 
The last observation was that there was indication of increased risk among
high cell phone users, and that the test's "high cell phone user" would be
the current "moderate" cell phone user.
 
The energy deposition is related to the distance from the antenna, so the
part of the brain nearest the ear would be most affected.  I believe it is
the Temporal Lobe which is associated with language, speech and memory.
 
David
 
On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
 
>
>> [...] Glad to finally see a scientifically based research on that subject

>
> There have been many over the years actually.  The author of the article
references two of the more recent ones.  Coincidentally, champions of the
cell phones cause cancer crowd claim cell phone companies conspire to
control the conclusion of these contemporary controlled cogitations.  It's
difficult to disprove something that didn't happen.
>
> Jeff
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 23:15:49 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 23:15:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C0FE1E7.000008.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE1E7.000008.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <7C39AD1C-F610-4982-915E-E026F2834431@verizon.net>

When the sun goes red giant, I believe it is expected to expand at least to earth's current orbit.  Whether we get absorbed or not appears to depend upon the changes in the sun's gravity due to changes in mass.

About 5-10 Billion years in the future.

David

On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:48 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Another serious scientific question.
> 
> Can the earth eventually be absorbed by the sun?
> 
> The answer might scare you.
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 23:38:46 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 23:38:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] More Browning swill . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C0FE370.8070001@jurislex.com>
References: <4C0FE370.8070001@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <DA66313A-A05E-4A5C-A87F-DA6F9A793305@verizon.net>

Maybe someone will defend Glen Beck by showing that he is right.

Good luck.
David

On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> A lack of hubris has never been one of the deficiencies of the Foxian propagandists:
> 
> http://mediamatters.org/research/201006090037
> 
> bob "sweet comparisons to Rove's view of Bush 43" browning
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun  9 23:37:35 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 23:37:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<7071B827-185B-46EA-A729-752A991D74FE@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C108829.0000B9.01384@DON-B2514E06367>

Now this is the kind of scientific approach I can deal with and learn from.

Science usually rules.

Another question deals with Marshall law, what it means to us, and how we
can prepare for it if it occurs.

This is one of several descriptions of Marshall Law, all basically the same.


We can prepare ourselves so we and our families will not be victimized
should a government action like this become a fearful reality.

http://sidlinger.tripod.com/ml.html

Have a good evening all, and to all a good night.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/9/2010 11:05:48 PM
To: donkelly;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones

Review the radiation rules.
http://www.vertical-visions.com/radiation.php
 
( funny site.  They discount the danger from microwave radiation.  And they
jump off of radio towers for fun.  )
 
Energy hitting your body depends upon antenna shape and distance from the
antenna.
 
Energy from a flat plate antenna is constant with distance. = 1W (if the
distance is less than the width of the antenna)
 
Energy from a linear antenna is inverse with the distance. = 1W/r (if the
distance is less than the length of the antenna)
 
Energy from a point source is inverse square of the distance. = 1W/(r*r)
(when the distance is greater than the greatest dimension of the antenna)
 
For a 1 cm x 1 cm antenna: 1W at 1 cm, has roughly the same impact as 4 W at
2 cm,  25 W at 5 cm, 900 W at 30 cm, or 1600 W at 40 cm
 
Depending upon the size and shape of the antenna, holding a cell phone to
your ear gives a similar dose **per square cm** as standing 16 inches from
an unshielded microwave oven.
Note:
your oven IS shielded,
and the area exposed by a microwave would be a 1000 times larger than the
area impacted by the cell phone.
 
David
 
On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:43 AM, donkelly wrote:
 
> ... Forget the cell phone. What about your microwave oven at around 1,000
watts?
>
> Don
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun  9 23:49:06 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 23:49:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C1081C0.0000B2.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<031701cb0806$1a5ed680$4f1c8380$@com>
	<1D3B5D12-1EB5-4A64-9684-EDDDD56CE4B6@verizon.net>
	<4C1081C0.0000B2.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <B07970ED-C99C-4B2B-8C42-996200063C44@verizon.net>

Oh, we can agree.

David

On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:10 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Amen to that.......and good use of the law to protect us, whether we want it or not.<GRIN> 
> 
> Seat belt use has also been proven to reduce injuries in auto accidents. So another good use of a law.
> 
> Don 



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Jun 10 01:27:39 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:27:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A795@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Martial law...?



-----Original Message-----
From: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Sent: June 09, 2010 11:42 PM
To: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones


Now this is the kind of scientific approach I can deal with and learn from.



Science usually rules.



Another question deals with Marshall law, what it means to us, and how we
can prepare for it if it occurs.



This is one of several descriptions of Marshall Law, all basically the same.




We can prepare ourselves so we and our families will not be victimized
should a government action like this become a fearful reality.



http://sidlinger.tripod.com/ml.html



Have a good evening all, and to all a good night.



Don









-------Original Message-------



From: David Morelli

Date: 6/9/2010 11:05:48 PM

To: donkelly;  Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones



Review the radiation rules.

http://www.vertical-visions.com/radiation.php



( funny site.  They discount the danger from microwave radiation.  And they
jump off of radio towers for fun.  )



Energy hitting your body depends upon antenna shape and distance from the
antenna.



Energy from a flat plate antenna is constant with distance. = 1W (if the
distance is less than the width of the antenna)



Energy from a linear antenna is inverse with the distance. = 1W/r (if the
distance is less than the length of the antenna)



Energy from a point source is inverse square of the distance. = 1W/(r*r)
(when the distance is greater than the greatest dimension of the antenna)



For a 1 cm x 1 cm antenna: 1W at 1 cm, has roughly the same impact as 4 W at
2 cm,  25 W at 5 cm, 900 W at 30 cm, or 1600 W at 40 cm



Depending upon the size and shape of the antenna, holding a cell phone to
your ear gives a similar dose **per square cm** as standing 16 inches from
an unshielded microwave oven.

Note:

your oven IS shielded,

and the area exposed by a microwave would be a 1000 times larger than the
area impacted by the cell phone.



David



On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:43 AM, donkelly wrote:



> ... Forget the cell phone. What about your microwave oven at around 1,000
watts?

>

> Don



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 07:36:47 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:36:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
In-Reply-To: <036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com>

Something to keep in mind here, Nevada is not like most states.  I know 
that this is a rather obvious statement generally, but the Republican 
party has been shaken up over the past two years.  During the 2008 
primary season, Ron Paul supporters started to organize and were shut 
out at the Republican state convention.  This started a war which now 
appears that the Tea Party has used to take power.

When Reid won the election in 2004 it was considered a surprise since 1) 
he is from Nevada and a Democrat; 2) Kerry's loss hurt the Democrat 
party which lead to editorials comparing them to the 1964 Republican 
party; and 3) was considered, at the time, to be a more centrist 
Democrat which is why people think he won.  No matter who he is facing 
in November he will have an uphill battle.  This race will most likely 
bring in the most money from around the country from both sides.  
Senator Reid is a major target that can be taken down unlike 
Representative Pelosi who will win easily.

It'll come down to who can raise the most money to throw the most mud.  
Should be interesting.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Don,
>
>   
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
>> is becoming a habit.
>>     
>
> This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.
>
> For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner" like
> Rand Paul.
>
> Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a time coming
> back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.
>
> Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face, I don't
> know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.
>
> Some of her problem issues:
>
>  - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
>  - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
>    legislation that placed caps on non-economic
>    damages, in all tort actions"
>  - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
>  - Pro Big Coal
>  - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
>    tax associated with it, meaning she's not
>    willing to make any sort of compromise to get
>    things her constituents need.
>  - Of course, pro Big Military
>  - Pro alcohol prohibition
>  - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
>    work solely with other countries.
>  - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
>    (read: costly)
>  - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
>    for passing tax increases, one of the things
>    that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
>  - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
>    requirement for passing spending increases
>  - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
>  - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
>    property taxes
>  - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
>  - Obviously pro-life
>  - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
>    individuals campaigning should be in charge.
>
> I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many Republicans
> see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX help,
> but I don't see it happening in November.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun 10 08:48:29 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:48:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cell phones
In-Reply-To: <4C108829.0000B9.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C74D3@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FCE84.6040103@jurislex.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C755C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FE0D0.000005.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<7071B827-185B-46EA-A729-752A991D74FE@verizon.net>
	<4C108829.0000B9.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <DF167286-0FD8-4B94-86E8-7AAD3D8EB925@teleport.com>

Marshall law?
Is this where Festus comes limping down the dusty main street,  
hollering "Marshall Dillon! Marshall Dillon!" and then the good  
Marshall breaks away from the fragrant embraces of Miss Kitty long  
enough to go round up the Bad Guys?
If not, I assume you mean "martial law," which is imposed by a  
government in case of total breakdown or destruction of local law  
enforcement or widespread public insurrection, generally in a  
conquered nation.
I believe martial law was imposed in San Francisco after the Great  
Earthquake at the turn of the last century, and the main result was  
that the suddenly-homeless population was protected from looters and  
opportunistic crime while being provided with food and shelter. It  
was also imposed in conquered portions of Germany as WWII ended, and  
fanatical Nazi holdouts were rounded up.
Why do you ask, are you preparing for a Great Earthquake? One is  
apparently due on the Pacific fault, and by geological evidence it  
will be a doozie. It might arrive tomorrow, or maybe not for another  
500 years. The point is, so many aspects of real life are uncertain  
enough, without working yourself into a nervous sweat over somebody  
else's imaginary scenarios.
WW
On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Now this is the kind of scientific approach I can deal with and  
> learn from.
>
> Science usually rules.
>
> Another question deals with Marshall law, what it means to us, and  
> how we
> can prepare for it if it occurs.
>
> This is one of several descriptions of Marshall Law, all basically  
> the same.
>
>
> We can prepare ourselves so we and our families will not be victimized
> should a government action like this become a fearful reality.
>
> http://sidlinger.tripod.com/ml.html
>
> Have a good evening all, and to all a good night.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: David Morelli
> Date: 6/9/2010 11:05:48 PM
> To: donkelly;  Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Cell phones
>
> Review the radiation rules.
> http://www.vertical-visions.com/radiation.php
>
> ( funny site.  They discount the danger from microwave radiation.   
> And they
> jump off of radio towers for fun.  )
>
> Energy hitting your body depends upon antenna shape and distance  
> from the
> antenna.
>
> Energy from a flat plate antenna is constant with distance. = 1W  
> (if the
> distance is less than the width of the antenna)
>
> Energy from a linear antenna is inverse with the distance. = 1W/r  
> (if the
> distance is less than the length of the antenna)
>
> Energy from a point source is inverse square of the distance. = 1W/ 
> (r*r)
> (when the distance is greater than the greatest dimension of the  
> antenna)
>
> For a 1 cm x 1 cm antenna: 1W at 1 cm, has roughly the same impact  
> as 4 W at
> 2 cm,  25 W at 5 cm, 900 W at 30 cm, or 1600 W at 40 cm
>
> Depending upon the size and shape of the antenna, holding a cell  
> phone to
> your ear gives a similar dose **per square cm** as standing 16  
> inches from
> an unshielded microwave oven.
> Note:
> your oven IS shielded,
> and the area exposed by a microwave would be a 1000 times larger  
> than the
> area impacted by the cell phone.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:43 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> ... Forget the cell phone. What about your microwave oven at  
>> around 1,000
> watts?
>>
>> Don<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 11:29:14 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:29:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

Boxer has been targeted and TP preliminaries suggest she will go down by a
substantial margin. 

It is too early to focus on Pelosi, (keep thinking that way), but in a long
range plan, the short money says  Pelosi will go down. 

Don't discount the companies, and their money, that do not like the way
Pelosi got Health Care passed, and is supportive of other radical Obamaplans
 global warming, carbon credits (cap n tax), supporting seizure of private
guns. 

She made more enemies this year than she ever did before, and she isn't
finished making enemies yet. 

She has a lot of money, but I bet she will get roasted to a crisp, and
several democrats residing in the cheering section will help to fire her.  

She may even submit negatively to pressure, and flame out as fast as Helen
did. (In my dreams).

Don

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Adam Mayer
Date: 6/10/2010 7:37:10 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
 
Something to keep in mind here, Nevada is not like most states.  I know
that this is a rather obvious statement generally, but the Republican
party has been shaken up over the past two years.  During the 2008
primary season, Ron Paul supporters started to organize and were shut
out at the Republican state convention.  This started a war which now
appears that the Tea Party has used to take power.
 
When Reid won the election in 2004 it was considered a surprise since 1)
he is from Nevada and a Democrat; 2) Kerry's loss hurt the Democrat
party which lead to editorials comparing them to the 1964 Republican
party; and 3) was considered, at the time, to be a more centrist
Democrat which is why people think he won.  No matter who he is facing
in November he will have an uphill battle.  This race will most likely
bring in the most money from around the country from both sides.
Senator Reid is a major target that can be taken down unlike
Representative Pelosi who will win easily.
 
It'll come down to who can raise the most money to throw the most mud.
Should be interesting.
 
Adam
 
Jeff Howden wrote:
> Don,
>
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
>> is becoming a habit.
>>
>
> This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.
>
> For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner" like
> Rand Paul.
>
> Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a time
coming
> back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.
>
> Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face, I don't
> know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.
>
> Some of her problem issues:
>
>  - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
>  - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
>    legislation that placed caps on non-economic
>    damages, in all tort actions"
>  - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
>  - Pro Big Coal
>  - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
>    tax associated with it, meaning she's not
>    willing to make any sort of compromise to get
>    things her constituents need.
>  - Of course, pro Big Military
>  - Pro alcohol prohibition
>  - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
>    work solely with other countries.
>  - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
>    (read: costly)
>  - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
>    for passing tax increases, one of the things
>    that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
>  - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
>    requirement for passing spending increases
>  - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
>  - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
>    property taxes
>  - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
>  - Obviously pro-life
>  - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
>    individuals campaigning should be in charge.
>
> I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many Republicans
> see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX help,
> but I don't see it happening in November.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
-------------- next part --------------
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From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 12:43:47 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:43:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
In-Reply-To: <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com> <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>



donkelly wrote:
> Boxer has been targeted and TP preliminaries suggest she will go down by a
> substantial margin. 
>
>   
Not sure if California will go this route.  The economy is a mess, the 
state is bankrupt, and all fingers are pointing at Schwarzenegger, 
rightfully so in my opinion.  I don't think the Republican party will 
win US Senate or governor for that matter, but will pick up a few 
congressional seats.

>
> It is too early to focus on Pelosi, (keep thinking that way), but in a long
> range plan, the short money says  Pelosi will go down. 
>   
Not in her district, she is loved.

>
>
> Don't discount the companies, and their money, that do not like the way
> Pelosi got Health Care passed, and is supportive of other radical Obamaplans
>  global warming, carbon credits (cap n tax), supporting seizure of private
> guns. 
>
>   
And don't discount that her district thinks that the government should 
run health care, supports gun control.  This is why she keeps winning.
>
> She made more enemies this year than she ever did before, and she isn't
> finished making enemies yet. 
>   
But those enemies don't live in San Francisco.  I know a Libertarian who 
lives in her district, he can't stand her but has told me that she is 
loved by many and she has the district locked up (think Earl Blumenauer 
or Greg Walden).
>
>
> She has a lot of money, but I bet she will get roasted to a crisp, and
> several democrats residing in the cheering section will help to fire her.
No amount of money will cause her to lose.  Think of it this way, Greg 
Walden is loved in eastern Oregon.  The Democrat party knows that they 
will never beat him.  They could pour millions, even billions of dollars 
into a campaign against him.  Do you think Wheeler county will all of a 
sudden won't vote for him?  People who would never vote Democrat even if 
their life depended on it?  This is where Nancy Pelosi is at in her 
district.  Nothing is impossible, but this one is as close as it gets.  
If she won her primary then she's in.

Adam
>   
>
>
>
> She may even submit negatively to pressure, and flame out as fast as Helen
> did. (In my dreams).
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>  
>
> From: Adam Mayer
>
> Date: 6/10/2010 7:37:10 AM
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
>
>  
>
> Something to keep in mind here, Nevada is not like most states.  I know
>
> that this is a rather obvious statement generally, but the Republican
>
> party has been shaken up over the past two years.  During the 2008
>
> primary season, Ron Paul supporters started to organize and were shut
>
> out at the Republican state convention.  This started a war which now
>
> appears that the Tea Party has used to take power.
>
>  
>
> When Reid won the election in 2004 it was considered a surprise since 1)
>
> he is from Nevada and a Democrat; 2) Kerry's loss hurt the Democrat
>
> party which lead to editorials comparing them to the 1964 Republican
>
> party; and 3) was considered, at the time, to be a more centrist
>
> Democrat which is why people think he won.  No matter who he is facing
>
> in November he will have an uphill battle.  This race will most likely
>
> bring in the most money from around the country from both sides.
>
> Senator Reid is a major target that can be taken down unlike
>
> Representative Pelosi who will win easily.
>
>  
>
> It'll come down to who can raise the most money to throw the most mud.
>
> Should be interesting.
>
>  
>
> Adam
>
>  
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>   
>> Don,
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>>> From: donkelly
>>>       
>
>   
>
>   
>>> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
>>>       
>
>   
>>> is becoming a habit.
>>>       
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>> This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner" like
>>     
>
>   
>> Rand Paul.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a time
>>     
> coming
>
>   
>> back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face, I don't
>>     
>
>   
>> know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> Some of her problem issues:
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>>  - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
>>     
>
>   
>>    legislation that placed caps on non-economic
>>     
>
>   
>>    damages, in all tort actions"
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Pro Big Coal
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
>>     
>
>   
>>    tax associated with it, meaning she's not
>>     
>
>   
>>    willing to make any sort of compromise to get
>>     
>
>   
>>    things her constituents need.
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Of course, pro Big Military
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Pro alcohol prohibition
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
>>     
>
>   
>>    work solely with other countries.
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
>>     
>
>   
>>    (read: costly)
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
>>     
>
>   
>>    for passing tax increases, one of the things
>>     
>
>   
>>    that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
>>     
>
>   
>>    requirement for passing spending increases
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
>>     
>
>   
>>    property taxes
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Obviously pro-life
>>     
>
>   
>>  - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
>>     
>
>   
>>    individuals campaigning should be in charge.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>> I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many Republicans
>>     
>
>   
>> see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX help,
>>     
>
>   
>> but I don't see it happening in November.
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>
>   
>> _______________________________________________
>>     
>
>   
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>     
>
>   
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>     
>
>   
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>   
>
>   
>
>  
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>   


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 12:55:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:55:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com> <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C114339.000031.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

You may be guessing right.

In Oregon, I understand that our eastern and southern guys have it knocked.

It's the three local guys that worry me.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Adam Mayer
Date: 6/10/2010 12:43:57 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
 
 
donkelly wrote:
> Boxer has been targeted and TP preliminaries suggest she will go down by a
> substantial margin.
>
>
Not sure if California will go this route.  The economy is a mess, the
state is bankrupt, and all fingers are pointing at Schwarzenegger,
rightfully so in my opinion.  I don't think the Republican party will
win US Senate or governor for that matter, but will pick up a few
congressional seats.
 
>
> It is too early to focus on Pelosi, (keep thinking that way), but in a
long
> range plan, the short money says  Pelosi will go down.
>
Not in her district, she is loved.
 
>
>
> Don't discount the companies, and their money, that do not like the way
> Pelosi got Health Care passed, and is supportive of other radical
Obamaplans
>  global warming, carbon credits (cap n tax), supporting seizure of private
> guns.
>
>
And don't discount that her district thinks that the government should
run health care, supports gun control.  This is why she keeps winning.
>
> She made more enemies this year than she ever did before, and she isn't
> finished making enemies yet.
>
But those enemies don't live in San Francisco.  I know a Libertarian who
lives in her district, he can't stand her but has told me that she is
loved by many and she has the district locked up (think Earl Blumenauer
or Greg Walden).
>
>
> She has a lot of money, but I bet she will get roasted to a crisp, and
> several democrats residing in the cheering section will help to fire her.
No amount of money will cause her to lose.  Think of it this way, Greg
Walden is loved in eastern Oregon.  The Democrat party knows that they
will never beat him.  They could pour millions, even billions of dollars
into a campaign against him.  Do you think Wheeler county will all of a
sudden won't vote for him?  People who would never vote Democrat even if
their life depended on it?  This is where Nancy Pelosi is at in her
district.  Nothing is impossible, but this one is as close as it gets.
If she won her primary then she's in.
 
Adam
>
>
>
>
> She may even submit negatively to pressure, and flame out as fast as Helen
> did. (In my dreams).
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Adam Mayer
>
> Date: 6/10/2010 7:37:10 AM
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
>
>
>
> Something to keep in mind here, Nevada is not like most states.  I know
>
> that this is a rather obvious statement generally, but the Republican
>
> party has been shaken up over the past two years.  During the 2008
>
> primary season, Ron Paul supporters started to organize and were shut
>
> out at the Republican state convention.  This started a war which now
>
> appears that the Tea Party has used to take power.
>
>
>
> When Reid won the election in 2004 it was considered a surprise since 1)
>
> he is from Nevada and a Democrat; 2) Kerry's loss hurt the Democrat
>
> party which lead to editorials comparing them to the 1964 Republican
>
> party; and 3) was considered, at the time, to be a more centrist
>
> Democrat which is why people think he won.  No matter who he is facing
>
> in November he will have an uphill battle.  This race will most likely
>
> bring in the most money from around the country from both sides.
>
> Senator Reid is a major target that can be taken down unlike
>
> Representative Pelosi who will win easily.
>
>
>
> It'll come down to who can raise the most money to throw the most mud.
>
> Should be interesting.
>
>
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>
>> Don,
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> From: donkelly
>>>
>
>
>
>
>>> The Tea Party wins again, and so does America. This trend
>>>
>
>
>>> is becoming a habit.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> This occurrence, combined with the previous, does not a trend make.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> For the Tea Party's sake, I hope this win doesn't end up a "winner" like
>>
>
>
>> Rand Paul.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> Her views are fairly far right.  She's going to have a heck of a time
>>
> coming
>
>
>> back to the center to get the total votes she needs, I don't think.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> Considering this is the candidate Reid indicated he'd rather face, I don
t
>>
>
>
>> know that this is quite the win the GOP had hoped for.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> Some of her problem issues:
>>
>
>
>
>
>>  - Wants to deregulate Big Oil.
>>
>
>
>>  - Pro insurance with her "introduction of
>>
>
>
>>    legislation that placed caps on non-economic
>>
>
>
>>    damages, in all tort actions"
>>
>
>
>>  - Is a "drill, baby, dill"-er
>>
>
>
>>  - Pro Big Coal
>>
>
>
>>  - Consistent "No" voter on anything that has a
>>
>
>
>>    tax associated with it, meaning she's not
>>
>
>
>>    willing to make any sort of compromise to get
>>
>
>
>>    things her constituents need.
>>
>
>
>>  - Of course, pro Big Military
>>
>
>
>>  - Pro alcohol prohibition
>>
>
>
>>  - Anti-UN and thinks the US should withdraw and
>>
>
>
>>    work solely with other countries.
>>
>
>
>>  - Is, not surprisingly, pro-strict-border-patrol
>>
>
>
>>    (read: costly)
>>
>
>
>>  - Supports a supermajority two-thirds requirement
>>
>
>
>>    for passing tax increases, one of the things
>>
>
>
>>    that's gotten California into such huge trouble.
>>
>
>
>>  - Supports an unheard of supermajority two-thirds
>>
>
>
>>    requirement for passing spending increases
>>
>
>
>>  - Abolish all 67,000 pages of IRS tax code
>>
>
>
>>  - Enacted legislation to put a permanent cap on
>>
>
>
>>    property taxes
>>
>
>
>>  - Obviously pro-one-man-and-one-woman marriage
>>
>
>
>>  - Obviously pro-life
>>
>
>
>>  - Anti-campaign-finance limitation.  Believes that
>>
>
>
>>    individuals campaigning should be in charge.
>>
>
>
>
>
>> I think she'll come out as the wackjob she herself claims many
Republicans
>>
>
>
>> see her as.  She may have been able to win the primary with the TPX help,
>>
>
>
>> but I don't see it happening in November.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>
>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>
>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 13:11:22 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:11:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
Message-ID: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

On June 14 this years we will celebrate two anniversaries, 233rd for our
flag, and 235th for our army.

During the war of 1812, Francis Scott Key boarded a British ship under a
white flag of truce, and was promptly taken prisoner and kept on board.

The next morning he wrote The Star Spangled Banner.

America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not
honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it. The reason he
does not say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final verses of the
song:

"While the first verse of "The Star-Spangled Banner" is familiar to most
Americans, it is the fourth and last verse that speaks most directly to the
humbling legacy of American Patriots, who have stood in harm's way since
1775:"

"O! Thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"
                                                                            
          
Don
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 13:16:32 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:16:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
In-Reply-To: <4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com> <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201cb08d9$d3184660$7948d320$@com>

Adam,

Agree on all points, save one:

> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> > donkelly wrote:
> > 
> > > Boxer has been targeted and TP preliminaries suggest she
> > > will go down by a substantial margin.
> >
> > Not sure if California will go this route.  The economy is
> > a mess, the state is bankrupt, and all fingers are pointing
> > at Schwarzenegger, rightfully so in my opinion. [...]

I think fingers are pointing at Schwarzenegger, but I don't think it's
solely (or even a percentage in the majority) his fault.  California has
historically had a horrible track record of funding itself.  It's hamstrung
by the impossible combination of the supermajority 2/3 requirement for tax
increases that was passed 30+ years ago (Prop 13) and being historically
deeply politically divided, making it damn near impossible to pass any
meaningful budget changes that involve tax increases.  Prop 13 also
drastically cut and capped property taxes (to a maximum of 1% of the full
cash value) but didn't put any solutions in place for funding all the
government programs and services that many Californians expect and line up
for.  They want it all, but refuse to pay for it.  Add to that problems like
an obscenely enormous prison population (and constantly growing at an
alarming rate thanks to the 3 strikes prop that was passed in 1994) and you
end up with a situation where the state pays more for its correctional
system than it does on higher education.  No, this isn't Schwarzenegger's
fault -- it's the fault of the politicians and every voting citizen in the
state for not doing what's needed to get things squared away politically,
economically, etc.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 13:33:44 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:33:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com>
	<4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>
	<005201cb08d9$d3184660$7948d320$@com>
Message-ID: <4C114C28.00003F.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

And the fallout will land on politicians whom are part of the problem, and
not part of a solution.

Jeff is evaluating correctly on this, I believe. 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/10/2010 1:16:48 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
 
Adam,
 
Agree on all points, save one:
 
> From: Adam Mayer
>
> > donkelly wrote:
> >
> > > Boxer has been targeted and TP preliminaries suggest she
> > > will go down by a substantial margin.
> >
> > Not sure if California will go this route.  The economy is
> > a mess, the state is bankrupt, and all fingers are pointing
> > at Schwarzenegger, rightfully so in my opinion. [...]
 
I think fingers are pointing at Schwarzenegger, but I don't think it's
solely (or even a percentage in the majority) his fault.  California has
historically had a horrible track record of funding itself.  It's hamstrung
by the impossible combination of the supermajority 2/3 requirement for tax
increases that was passed 30+ years ago (Prop 13) and being historically
deeply politically divided, making it damn near impossible to pass any
meaningful budget changes that involve tax increases.  Prop 13 also
drastically cut and capped property taxes (to a maximum of 1% of the full
cash value) but didn't put any solutions in place for funding all the
government programs and services that many Californians expect and line up
for.  They want it all, but refuse to pay for it.  Add to that problems like
an obscenely enormous prison population (and constantly growing at an
alarming rate thanks to the 3 strikes prop that was passed in 1994) and you
end up with a situation where the state pays more for its correctional
system than it does on higher education.  No, this isn't Schwarzenegger's
fault -- it's the fault of the politicians and every voting citizen in the
state for not doing what's needed to get things squared away politically,
economically, etc.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 13:46:29 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:46:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our
> president does not honor it, and from his negative
> actions, apparently hates it. The reason he does not
> say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final
> verses of the song:

The suggestion that he doesn't love it because it says "In God is our
trust.", is ridiculous at best.  There's really no need to continue with the
tired, old, and untrue claim that Obama is not only not a Christian, but
also, by your implication, a Muslim.  Further, it's absolute nonsense that
anyone's patriotism has anything whatsoever to do with their religious
beliefs.  They are not connected, no matter how much those in the
conservative Christian movement (nutjobs like those pushing 9/12 project)
would like everyone to think.  By your implication then nearly 1/4 of the US
population is not patriotic (including members of this very list).  That's
absurd.  What's even more absurd is that you think you can somehow get
inside the man's head and *know* how he thinks or feels about his and our
country.  The reality is, you cannot (nor can anyone else), and therefore
any claims to the contrary are intended as a smear of his character and a
distraction to this list.

Talk about your patriotism all you like, but keep the opining about anyone
else's to yourself, please.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 14:01:23 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:01:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
In-Reply-To: <4C114C28.00003F.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com> <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com> <005201cb08d9$d3184660$7948d320$@com>
	<4C114C28.00003F.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006701cb08e0$1a3be320$4eb3a960$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> And the fallout will land on politicians whom are part of
> the problem, and not part of a solution.
> 
> Jeff is evaluating correctly on this, I believe.

Indeed it will.  Since the ones responsible for Prop 13 and the lack of
meaningful budget votes falls squarely on the GOP and other "no tax
increase" ideologues (ala Tea Partiers), expect that most will squarely face
issues being elected or re-elected in any district that they don't have a
solid lock of like-minded (and therefore non-solution-oriented) voters.

It doesn't bode well in a recession to raise taxes, but considering the
services voters have mandated (directly or indirectly), I don't see how
California can get out of the whole it's in without doing exactly that.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 15:10:03 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:10:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff, unfair, I made no such implication. I do not believe, as you suggest,
that 25% of Americans are unpatriotic, do not salute the flag, do not stand
when the national anthem is sung, or take oaths when they must on the Quoran
instead of the bible. 

I do not believe that of anyone on this list, in this town, or in this state
 There may be a few here and there, like my mother in law was a Jehovah's
Witness and they did not salute the flag in school, but they did honor the
national anthem. There may be other religions that believe the same, but not
25% of the citizens of the United States.

By tradition, when the president speaks, there are two flags flanking the
wall behind him. Not with this president, sometimes the flags are there, and
sometimes they are not, but they were there every time prior presidents
addressed the nation or smaller groups, clear back to when I was in high
school and noticed the flags.

You do not have to get inside a person's  head, just watch what they do. The
good book says, "by their works they shall be known." And that is true right
down the line. Actions speak louder than words. Do you not agree?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/10/2010 1:46:39 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our
> president does not honor it, and from his negative
> actions, apparently hates it. The reason he does not
> say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final
> verses of the song:
 
The suggestion that he doesn't love it because it says "In God is our
trust.", is ridiculous at best.  There's really no need to continue with the
tired, old, and untrue claim that Obama is not only not a Christian, but
also, by your implication, a Muslim.  Further, it's absolute nonsense that
anyone's patriotism has anything whatsoever to do with their religious
beliefs.  They are not connected, no matter how much those in the
conservative Christian movement (nutjobs like those pushing 9/12 project)
would like everyone to think.  By your implication then nearly 1/4 of the US
population is not patriotic (including members of this very list).  That's
absurd.  What's even more absurd is that you think you can somehow get
inside the man's head and *know* how he thinks or feels about his and our
country.  The reality is, you cannot (nor can anyone else), and therefore
any claims to the contrary are intended as a smear of his character and a
distraction to this list.
 
Talk about your patriotism all you like, but keep the opining about anyone
else's to yourself, please.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 15:26:18 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:26:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com>
	<4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com>
	<005201cb08d9$d3184660$7948d320$@com>	<4C114C28.00003F.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006701cb08e0$1a3be320$4eb3a960$@com>
Message-ID: <4C11668A.000059.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

Uh? Wake up Jeff<GRIN>

I have a flash for you.

The Tea Party supports taxes- - - -reasonable taxes. 

Taxes (or levies) have supported our government since the earliest years of
our founding fathers.

Furthermore, all of the patriotic groups support taxes.

Where do you get the idea that the Tea Party doesn't? Or the GOP doesn't?

If the question were about raising taxes to support wasteful programs, or to
support fraudulent organizations, or fraudulent science, or support ravings,
IMHO everyone should oppose paying for waste, paying for pork.

Cut out the waste and spend the money to support schools and teachers, roads
 bridges. That fits my philosophy. What is your opinion on cutting out
wasteful earmarks?
 
Don

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/10/2010 2:01:42 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> And the fallout will land on politicians whom are part of
> the problem, and not part of a solution.
>
> Jeff is evaluating correctly on this, I believe.
 
Indeed it will.  Since the ones responsible for Prop 13 and the lack of
meaningful budget votes falls squarely on the GOP and other "no tax
increase" ideologues (ala Tea Partiers), expect that most will squarely face
issues being elected or re-elected in any district that they don't have a
solid lock of like-minded (and therefore non-solution-oriented) voters.
 
It doesn't bode well in a recession to raise taxes, but considering the
services voters have mandated (directly or indirectly), I don't see how
California can get out of the whole it's in without doing exactly that.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 10 16:12:05 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:12:05 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Actions speak louder than words which seems to have
 been called "Anniversaries coming up" for some reason
In-Reply-To: <4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <C836DB75.16E7B%hannah@teleport.com>

I do agree. Those who besmirch the reputations of others show me their
actions. Those who claim to know how another is thinking...and somehow it is
always the worst possible conclusion...show me their actions. Those who
declare me unpatriotic because I believe in separation of church and state,
show me their actions.

And by their actions, they speak louder than the backpedaling words they
attempt to speak next.

Kristy


On 6/10/10 5:10 PM, "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> Actions speak louder than words. Do you not agree?




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 16:22:45 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:22:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>
	<4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <008701cb08f3$d705d570$85118050$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Jeff, unfair, I made no such implication.

Yes, precisely, you did:

"[...] our president does not honor it, and from
 his negative actions, apparently hates it. The
 reason he does not say, but perhaps a clue to why
 is found in the final verses of the song: [...]"

It's the fourth verse that contains the phrase "In God is our trust."

What other implication could you possibly be making?

> [...] I do not believe, as you suggest, that 25% of
> Americans are unpatriotic, do not salute the flag,
> do not stand when the national anthem is sung, [...]

You are either twisting what I said or you didn't understand what I said.
If you misunderstood, that's fine.  Do *not* make the mistake of
intentionally twisting my words, however.  It is a game that will *not* work
for you.

I did not say that I believe that nearly 25% of Americans are unpatriotic.
I actually said:

"By your implication then nearly 1/4 of the US
 population is not patriotic (including members
 of this very list).  That's absurd."

I said that because about 76% of the US population claims to be Christian
and you'd implied that taking issue with the phrase "In God is our trust."
in the fourth verse could be equated to the statement that "... does not
honor it ... [and] apparently hates it" (the equivalent of saying someone is
unpatriotic).

Surely I'm to believe that when you reference the phrase "In God is our
trust." that you're referring to the Christian God, correct?  If so, that
means that those members of the beliefs Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism,
Sikhism, etc. (about 4-5% of the population) would have an issue with that
phrase as well as they're not Christians and that phrase isn't talking about
their god(s).  Additionally, another 15% that has no religious belief or
religious affiliation certainly wouldn't believe that phrase either or may
even take issue with it.

Is my assertion about what you were implying about President Obama correct?
Or, were you implying something else?  And, if so, what, precisely, were you
implying?  Don't drop hints either.  Just come out and say it.

> [...] or take oaths when they must on the Quoran
> instead of the bible.

The *false* implication that Obama takes an oath on the Quran instead of the
bible isn't unnoticed either.

> [...] There may be a few here and there, like my
> mother in law was a Jehovah's Witness and they did
> not salute the flag in school, but they did honor
> the national anthem. There may be other religions
> that believe the same, but not 25% of the citizens
> of the United States.

What of those that don't believe that "In God is our trust"?  Are they
unpatriotic because they don't believe that?  What does saluting the flag
(which is only required by members of the armed forces, by the way) have to
do with patriotism?  What does placing your hand over your heart while the
National Anthem is playing have to do with patriotism?  Is it not enough to
simply show reverence while it's playing?

> By tradition, when the president speaks, there are
> two flags flanking the wall behind him. Not with
> this president, sometimes the flags are there, and
> sometimes they are not, but they were there every
> time prior presidents addressed the nation or smaller
> groups, clear back to when I was in high school and
> noticed the flags.

This is an absurd claim.  President Obama has flags all over the place as
well.  Further, to suggest that he's involved in every little decorating
decision for the places he speaks is quote presumptive and absurd.  Even if
he was involved in every little detail like that, the number of flags
displayed is not proportional to the level of someone's patriotism.

> You do not have to get inside a person's head, just
> watch what they do. The good book says, "by their
> works they shall be known." And that is true right
> down the line. Actions speak louder than words. Do
> you not agree?

Your good book also says "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." and
"speak not evil one of another, brethren".

It also says:

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not
 obey his father and mother and will not listen to them
 when they discipline him, his father and mother shall
 take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate
 of his town. They shall say to the elders, 'This son of
 ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He
 is a profligate and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his
 town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil
 from among you."

What about a stubborn and rebellious member of a community?  Are we to stone
them too if they will not listen when they are disciplined?

Seriously, your good book isn't exactly the best source of advice on
right/wrong.

Jeff



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 16:59:59 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:59:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
In-Reply-To: <4C11668A.000059.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C0D4F53.000036.02064@DON-B2514E06367>
	<91EC5C48-46B9-44AA-A803-91ABDBF32701@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2453B76@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0E93EC.000023.00188@DON-B2514E06367>
	<BCABD98F-3750-4415-B330-3CF1E0196C56@verizon.net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E24C7250@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C0FED27.000021.01384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<036701cb0822$ada84ef0$08f8ecd0$@com>
	<4C10F87F.6010406@gmail.com> <4C112EEC.00001E.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C114073.7030408@gmail.com> <005201cb08d9$d3184660$7948d320$@com>
	<4C114C28.00003F.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006701cb08e0$1a3be320$4eb3a960$@com>
	<4C11668A.000059.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilpS6bQ-hWBw3D1dtfpSkKstMkrLB6Aea0VsfvY@mail.gmail.com>

  While California has it's Prop. 13, we had years of crazed tax cutters
like Bill Sizemoron, and Lon Mabon and all the others who saw fit to cut the
life out of government supported programs in the name of "fair taxes". Well,
this is what you get, we, like California, are not immune to the damage
inflicted by inane tax cutting advocates who say "cut, cut, cut" without a
clue of how government works. Yea, maybe "Patriotic" groups support taxes,
but only those that benefit them directly. And BTW, I really have to laugh
at the reference to "Patriots" when the very people who use that moniker are
those who are advocating revolt, cessation, and civil disobedience in the
name of the constitution. Ha, I'm laughing real loud.

How about offering a room in your home for one of those 1000 inmates they're
going to be releasing, or giving some of your extra cash to the financially
strapped schools you profess to support? And will you be among the
volunteers to pitch in to provide the in-home care to elderly shut-ins who
depend on a little help from their government after years of paying taxes
themselves.?

The trouble with tax cutters is that they lack a proper grip on reality.
Just how can you have services when you cut resources to the bone? Where do
you expect the money to come from?

jimz

*******************************************************************

>From the Oregonian 06.10.10

Oregon officials released a long list of potential budget cuts Wednesday
including some bombshells, such as closing three state prisons, freeing
nearly 1,000 inmates and ending in-home care for 2,000 elderly.

Three minimum-security prisons would be closed, under one proposal.
The likelihood of such dramatic measures remains unclear, but one way or
another the state must rebalance a budget that has fallen far out of whack
because of Oregon's anemic economy.

The proposed cuts, which go on for pages, come in response to Gov. Ted
Kulongoski's order that state agencies slice 9 percent from the final 12
months of their 2009-11 budgets. The cuts became necessary after state
economists projected that tax collections and lottery profits would come in
$577 million shy of what had been budgeted through next July.


<http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oregonlive.com%2Fpolitics%2Findex.ssf%2F2010%2F06%2Fprisons_elderly_top_list_of_pr.html%23modg_smoref_face&t=Prisons%2C%20elderly%20services%20top%20list%20of%20proposed%20Oregon%20budget%20cuts%20%7C%20OregonLive.com&src=sp>
  School districts, which must find about $250 million in savings, already
are ratcheting back. A handful of districts cut days this year. Others have
dipped into reserve accounts or are looking at shortening next school year
or laying off teachers and staff.




On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:26 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> Uh? Wake up Jeff<GRIN>
>
> I have a flash for you.
>
> The Tea Party supports taxes- - - -reasonable taxes.
>
> Taxes (or levies) have supported our government since the earliest years of
> our founding fathers.
>
> Furthermore, all of the patriotic groups support taxes.
>
> Where do you get the idea that the Tea Party doesn't? Or the GOP doesn't?
>
> If the question were about raising taxes to support wasteful programs, or
> to
> support fraudulent organizations, or fraudulent science, or support
> ravings,
> IMHO everyone should oppose paying for waste, paying for pork.
>
> Cut out the waste and spend the money to support schools and teachers,
> roads
>  bridges. That fits my philosophy. What is your opinion on cutting out
> wasteful earmarks?
>
> Don
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/10/2010 2:01:42 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Sharron Angle
>
> Don,
>
> > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> >
> > And the fallout will land on politicians whom are part of
> > the problem, and not part of a solution.
> >
> > Jeff is evaluating correctly on this, I believe.
>
> Indeed it will.  Since the ones responsible for Prop 13 and the lack of
> meaningful budget votes falls squarely on the GOP and other "no tax
> increase" ideologues (ala Tea Partiers), expect that most will squarely
> face
> issues being elected or re-elected in any district that they don't have a
> solid lock of like-minded (and therefore non-solution-oriented) voters.
>
> It doesn't bode well in a recession to raise taxes, but considering the
> services voters have mandated (directly or indirectly), I don't see how
> California can get out of the whole it's in without doing exactly that.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>

From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Thu Jun 10 21:18:08 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:18:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>
	<4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <201006102118.08595.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

Here's a man who chose to give up a "safe" seat in the US Senate to serve as 
President, knowing full well that he would face the likelihood of 
assassination just because of the color of his skin, as Colin Powell also 
knew. And here you come saying he hates the flag and is not patriotic just 
because the flag is not always where you think it should be. His level of 
patriotism is, I admit, far beyond mine, and frankly, I don't think you know 
what you're talking about. I find it quite offensive.

On Thursday 10 June 2010 01:11:22 pm donkelly wrote:
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not
> honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it. 

On Thursday 10 June 2010 03:10:03 pm donkelly wrote:
> By tradition, when the president speaks, there are two flags flanking the
> wall behind him. Not with this president, sometimes the flags are there,
> and sometimes they are not, but they were there every time prior presidents
> addressed the nation or smaller groups, clear back to when I was in high
> school and noticed the flags.
...
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 10 21:52:03 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:52:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican leader proposes strong federal action against
	BP
Message-ID: <A2270675-1143-43CD-98CF-B85FC009EBBA@verizon.net>

<quote>
Mr. President: with all due respect, you have to get involved, sir. The priorities and timeline of an oil company are not the same as the public?s. You cannot outsource the cleanup and the responsibility and the trust to BP and expect that the legitimate interests of Americans adversely affected by this spill will somehow be met.
?
These decisions and the resulting spill have shaken the public?s confidence in the ability to safely drill. Unless government appropriately regulates oil developments and holds oil executives accountable, the public will not trust them to drill, baby, drill.
?
Please, sir, for the sake of the Gulf residents, reach out to experts who have experience holding oil companies accountable.
</quote>
 
http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/less-talkin-more-kickin/397148258434





From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Jun 10 21:57:05 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:57:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A799@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Meredith...you perhaps know that this repugnant kind of writing has been going on for some time on Grovenet.  The delete button has taken on new meaning...but it's good to see you back.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Meredith Bliss <mbliss at agora.rdrop.com>
Sent: June 10, 2010 9:18 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up


Here's a man who chose to give up a "safe" seat in the US Senate to serve as
President, knowing full well that he would face the likelihood of
assassination just because of the color of his skin, as Colin Powell also
knew. And here you come saying he hates the flag and is not patriotic just
because the flag is not always where you think it should be. His level of
patriotism is, I admit, far beyond mine, and frankly, I don't think you know
what you're talking about. I find it quite offensive.

On Thursday 10 June 2010 01:11:22 pm donkelly wrote:
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not
> honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it.

On Thursday 10 June 2010 03:10:03 pm donkelly wrote:
> By tradition, when the president speaks, there are two flags flanking the
> wall behind him. Not with this president, sometimes the flags are there,
> and sometimes they are not, but they were there every time prior presidents
> addressed the nation or smaller groups, clear back to when I was in high
> school and noticed the flags.
...
> Don


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 10 22:30:18 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 22:30:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <D108A878-1FC0-49E7-89AB-08E607DD58A8@verizon.net>

Don,

What you wrote is useless drivel.

David

On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:11 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ... America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it. The reason he does not say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final verses of the song:



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 10 23:09:45 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:09:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>	<006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>
	<4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<201006102118.08595.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C11D329.000095.02288@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Sometimes the truth hurts, but you did not cause it, and it has nothing to
do with you.

I am a relatively smart person, but I have no clue what you are talking
about, or why you feel offended by my pointing out the facts. He does not
salute the flag. He does not respectfully stand when our national anthem is
played. It has nothing to do with religion. It is just the dirtiest kind of
politics, that takes freedom from the people. Those are non disputable facts
 and we see them played out alive nearly every day.

So why should you not be offended by that, as I am offended by that....as my
ancestors would also be offended by that. We are a nation of laws, and no
one is above those laws, not even the president.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Meredith Bliss
Date: 6/10/2010 9:18:16 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Here's a man who chose to give up a "safe" seat in the US Senate to serve as
President, knowing full well that he would face the likelihood of
assassination just because of the color of his skin, as Colin Powell also
knew. And here you come saying he hates the flag and is not patriotic just
because the flag is not always where you think it should be. His level of
patriotism is, I admit, far beyond mine, and frankly, I don't think you know
what you're talking about. I find it quite offensive.
 
On Thursday 10 June 2010 01:11:22 pm donkelly wrote:
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not
> honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it.
 
On Thursday 10 June 2010 03:10:03 pm donkelly wrote:
> By tradition, when the president speaks, there are two flags flanking the
> wall behind him. Not with this president, sometimes the flags are there,
> and sometimes they are not, but they were there every time prior
presidents
> addressed the nation or smaller groups, clear back to when I was in high
> school and noticed the flags.
...
> Don
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 23:26:13 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:26:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C11D329.000095.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>	<006101cb08de$01ce99b0$056bcd10$@com>
	<4C1162AF.00004C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<201006102118.08595.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>
	<4C11D329.000095.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00b301cb092e$ffacee60$ff06cb20$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> He does not salute the flag.

He's not supposed to salute the flag.  He is not a uniformed serviceman; not
now, not ever.

> He does not respectfully stand when our national
> anthem is played.

Nonsense.  For every bit of proof that he doesn't, I can find numerous items
of proof that he does.  I've even witnessed him doing it in person.

This claim is a non-starter.  You are bearing false witness, sir.

> It has nothing to do with religion.

Then why did you try to make it about religion to begin with?

> It is just the dirtiest kind of politics, that
> takes freedom from the people.

It is not politics and isn't even true.  Even if it were, his choice to show
reverence to the flag in his own way has *nothing* to do with people's
freedoms -- *NOTHING*.

> Those are non disputable facts and we see them
> played out alive nearly every day.

If when you say "facts" you really mean "lies", then yes, I'd agree they are
absolutely as indisputable as you say.  Otherwise, you're completely out of
touch with reality.

> So why should you not be offended by that, as I am
> offended by that....as my ancestors would also be
> offended by that.

You are offended by your own delusions.

> We are a nation of laws, and no one is above those
> laws, not even the president.

We are not required by law to show a particular type or level of reverence
to the flag.  Get over it.

Gather some composure and stop this nonsense.  You're embarrassing yourself
-- seriously.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 10 23:50:24 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:50:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican leader proposes strong federal action
	against BP
In-Reply-To: <A2270675-1143-43CD-98CF-B85FC009EBBA@verizon.net>
References: <A2270675-1143-43CD-98CF-B85FC009EBBA@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <00b601cb0932$622ef350$268cd9f0$@com>

First, I was absolutely shocked to find out that these quoted bits were
attributed to Ms. Palin.

> From: David Morelli
> 
> <quote>
> Mr. President: with all due respect, you have to get
> involved, sir. The priorities and timeline of an oil
> company are not the same as the public's. You cannot
> outsource the cleanup and the responsibility and the
> trust to BP and expect that the legitimate interests
> of Americans adversely affected by this spill will
> somehow be met.

Priorities and timelines are certainly different, but when you're dealing
with a spill as technically challenging as this one that requires not only
highly technical knowledge, but also very technical equipment, it's not
exactly the sort of thing you can step in and say, "Move aside, we'll take
over from here" when you don't get the results you want.  The cleanup can
and is being outsourced, almost from the start, but the only one that can
stop the leak is BP.

> These decisions and the resulting spill have shaken the
> public's confidence in the ability to safely drill.
> Unless government appropriately regulates oil developments
> and holds oil executives accountable, the public will not
> trust them to drill, baby, drill.

Except those that profit from it, I don't think the public will ever trust
them to "drill, baby, drill".

> Please, sir, for the sake of the Gulf residents, reach
> out to experts who have experience holding oil companies
> accountable.

Knowing what her position on Big Oil is, in general, I wonder what the
unspoken message between the lines on this are.

Jeff



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Fri Jun 11 00:01:48 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 00:01:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh@comcast.net>'s message of Thu,
	10 Jun 2010 23:09:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Message-ID: <19745-4C11DF5C-2636@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Time to bring on the Ode De Toilet.  For this thread is starting to
dirty up the air about as much as the smell of B.P. (big  politics).
Remember what I've expressed in the past about turning friends into
enemies?

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From gregory.gritton at comcast.net  Fri Jun 11 08:54:40 2010
From: gregory.gritton at comcast.net (Gregory Gritton)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:54:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Air conditioning installer
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20100611085335.00ca60a0@mail.comcast.net>

Hi all,

Is there a person who installs central air conditioning that any of you can 
recommend?

Thanks,

Greg Gritton



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 09:42:00 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:42:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
Message-ID: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>

The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start school 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late Start" is at the bottom of the main website page: 
http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/



In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in response to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on the budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to collaborate with each other.



This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, June 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 7:00.  I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to attend.    



Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda: 

http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347de257e96a 



Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this "late start" on our students and your family.



Marian Cakarnis

503-357-2805

From admin at ronhowden.com  Fri Jun 11 09:44:17 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:44:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>

A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent input
concerning this very topic.

Ron H.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start school
30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It
seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late Start"
is at the bottom of the main website page: 
http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/



In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in response
to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on the
budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
collaborate with each other.



This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, June
14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 7:00.
I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
attend.    



Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda: 

http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
de257e96a 



Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I
urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this "late
start" on our students and your family.



Marian Cakarnis

503-357-2805





From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 09:55:01 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:55:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
Message-ID: <24E0F95380114959864602C0AA1CAAAF@JeffVAIO>



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:44 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

> A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent 
> input
> concerning this very topic.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
>
> The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start 
> school
> 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It
> seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
> appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late 
> Start"
> is at the bottom of the main website page:
> http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
>
>
>
> In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
> students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in 
> response
> to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on 
> the
> budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
> collaborate with each other.
>
>
>
> This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, 
> June
> 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
> meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 
> 7:00.
> I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
> attend.
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
>
> http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
> erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
> de257e96a
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I
> urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this 
> "late
> start" on our students and your family.
>
>
>
> Marian Cakarnis
>
> 503-357-2805
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 09:57:36 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:57:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
Message-ID: <D32A47F19EE84B8894A24DAB7C62A9F4@JeffVAIO>

That's interesting.  It appears your school is more proactive with their 
communication, than mine.  Just curious, which school sent the notice home?

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:44 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

> A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent 
> input
> concerning this very topic.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
>
> The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start 
> school
> 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It
> seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
> appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late 
> Start"
> is at the bottom of the main website page:
> http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
>
>
>
> In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
> students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in 
> response
> to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on 
> the
> budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
> collaborate with each other.
>
>
>
> This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, 
> June
> 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
> meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 
> 7:00.
> I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
> attend.
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
>
> http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
> erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
> de257e96a
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I
> urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this 
> "late
> start" on our students and your family.
>
>
>
> Marian Cakarnis
>
> 503-357-2805
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From debbratland at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 09:54:01 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:54:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik4wCPMMKRB3AkzB8N9dw-s-npTEerPR50Q7d7U@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Grovenet -

My name is Deb Bratland and I'm new to Grovenet.  I'm a parent of 2 kids at
Neil Armstrong, and I received no notice from the school about the proposed
late start.  I've also talked to parents of kids at the High School and at
Tom McCall, and none of them have received notice either.  I know of 2
elementary schools where small 1/2 sheet and 1/3 sheet notices went home in
backpacks.

Deb




On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

> A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent
> input
> concerning this very topic.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
>
> The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start school
> 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It
> seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
> appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late Start"
> is at the bottom of the main website page:
> http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
>
>
>
> In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
> students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in response
> to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on the
> budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
> collaborate with each other.
>
>
>
> This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, June
> 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
> meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 7:00.
> I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
> attend.
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
>
>
> http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
>
> erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
> de257e96a
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I
> urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this
> "late
> start" on our students and your family.
>
>
>
> Marian Cakarnis
>
> 503-357-2805
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 11 09:55:43 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:55:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Air conditioning installer
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20100611085335.00ca60a0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4C126A87.000001.00416@DON-B2514E06367>

Trane in Beaverton did a good job for us in two of our homes.

I haven't looked to see if there is a closer Trane installer. I would prefer
to use locals as much as possible.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Gregory Gritton
Date: 6/11/2010 8:55:02 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] Air conditioning installer
 
Hi all,
 
Is there a person who installs central air conditioning that any of you can
recommend?
 
Thanks,
 
Greg Gritton
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
-------------- next part --------------
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 11 10:38:44 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:38:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <D32A47F19EE84B8894A24DAB7C62A9F4@JeffVAIO>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
	<D32A47F19EE84B8894A24DAB7C62A9F4@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <010601cb098c$f13ded30$d3b9c790$@com>

Harvey Clarke

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf
> Of Marian Cakarnis
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:58 AM
> To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour
later
> 
> That's interesting.  It appears your school is more proactive with their
> communication, than mine.  Just curious, which school sent the notice
home?
> 
> Marian
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:44 AM
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour
later
> 
> > A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent
> > input
> > concerning this very topic.
> >
> > Ron H.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
> > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
> >
> > The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start
> > school
> > 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall.
It
> > seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
> > appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late
> > Start"
> > is at the bottom of the main website page:
> > http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
> >
> >
> >
> > In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> > students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> > equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
> > students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in
> > response
> > to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on
> > the
> > budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
> > collaborate with each other.
> >
> >
> >
> > This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday,
> > June
> > 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
> > meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at
> > 7:00.
> > I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
> > attend.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
> >
> >
http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
> >
erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
> > de257e96a
> >
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But
I
> > urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this
> > "late
> > start" on our students and your family.
> >
> >
> >
> > Marian Cakarnis
> >
> > 503-357-2805
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2929 - Release Date: 06/10/10
> 23:35:00




From admin at ronhowden.com  Fri Jun 11 11:56:27 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:56:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <D32A47F19EE84B8894A24DAB7C62A9F4@JeffVAIO>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
	<D32A47F19EE84B8894A24DAB7C62A9F4@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <00ed01cb0997$cca1f970$65e5ec50$@com>

Harvey Clarke
Ron H
_____________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Marian Cakarnis [mailto:oldredwagon at verizon.net] 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:58 AM
To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

That's interesting.  It appears your school is more proactive with their 
communication, than mine.  Just curious, which school sent the notice home?

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:44 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

> A note went home with the students several weeks ago asking for parent 
> input
> concerning this very topic.
>
> Ron H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
>
> The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start 
> school
> 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It
> seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it
> appears most are unaware of this. The  announcement about this "Late 
> Start"
> is at the bottom of the main website page:
> http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
>
>
>
> In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all
> students.  This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in 
> response
> to the budget shortfall.  But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on 
> the
> budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to
> collaborate with each other.
>
>
>
> This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, 
> June
> 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the
> meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 
> 7:00.
> I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to
> attend.
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
>
>
http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Sup
>
erintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347
> de257e96a
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  But I
> urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this 
> "late
> start" on our students and your family.
>
>
>
> Marian Cakarnis
>
> 503-357-2805
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2927 - Release Date: 06/10/10
23:35:00




From gritton.family at comcast.net  Fri Jun 11 11:58:48 2010
From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:58:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <1770801736.2908361276282728136.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

The budget short fall is going to create a lot of havoc and loss of instruction time no matter how the district chooses to deal with it. While I am not sure I like the idea of losing 1/2 hour each Wed. morning for teacher collaboration time, I mostly don't want the district to cut teachers if only because doing so will lead to larger class sizes which I believe would have a greater impact on not only the teachers' ability to teach effectively, but on the students' learning opportunities. Having taught many years ago, I found out just how true this was. By the end of the year, due to changes the school had needed to make to a few PE classes, my largest class had 34 students while my smallest had 14. Can you guess which one I was able to spend more time teaching and less time keeping attention in? Sigh. Individual instruction time is a lot harder to achieve in a larger setting, and if teachers are laid off, the only solution will be larger class sizes. So, while the possibility of losing 8 days next year is frustrating, I would support that over losing teachers. 

It seems to me that finding out exactly how the district wants to use that extra 1/2 hr. for teachers would be helpful. If it is to be used only for teachers to work together on upcoming projects, it might be helpful, or even to allow students to come in for some extra help once or twice a month, but if it'll be used for administrative business, etc., that doesn't meet my idea of improving our children's education. 

However, with the current anticipated losses, it seems like it would make more sense to wait on implementing this change, or else to have school end 1/2 hour earlier as most working parents already have after school care planned for, but mornings are when parents usually are able to drop their children off at school instead of at a sitter's. 

Cindy Gritton 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net> 
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later 

The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start school 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it appears most are unaware of this. The announcement about this "Late Start" is at the bottom of the main website page: 
http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/ 



In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all students. This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in response to the budget shortfall. But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on the budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to collaborate with each other. 



This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, June 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 7:00. I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to attend. 



Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda: 

http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347de257e96a 



Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class. But I urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this "late start" on our students and your family. 



Marian Cakarnis 

503-357-2805 
_______________________________________________ 
GroveNet mailing list 
GroveNet at rdrop.com 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 11 14:20:00 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:20:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
Message-ID: <015801cb09ab$da7fd760$8f7f8620$@com>

Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201006113

Engineer James Bird estimates that he watched thousands of bubbles pop while
he was getting his Ph.D. at Harvard University. With the help of high-speed
cameras, Bird and his colleagues discovered that when interfacial
bubbles--bubbles resting on water or a solid--pop, they give birth to a ring
of baby bubbles. The discovery, published in
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7299/full/nature09069.html>
Nature, has implications for soda drinkers and global climate estimates.
(Credits: footage, images courtesy of James Bird et. al., Nature) See More
Videos <http://www.sciencefriday.com/video/>  

High-speed, high-definition video reveals the secret world of popping
bubbles. 

 


From lindam at wccls.org  Fri Jun 11 15:00:08 2010
From: lindam at wccls.org (Linda Minor)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:00:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Free Internet Classes at the Library
Message-ID: <94DD37F0A1DC734096E7762868418AD501609826@WCCLSWEBSTER.wccls.lib.or.us>


Forest Grove City Library is offering free computer classes the third
Friday of every month, 10-11am, and occasional Thursday evenings,
6-7:15pm.  Friday morning classes are Open Computer Labs focusing on
one-to-one instruction.  Come with your questions based on the scheduled
theme.  Special Topics classes are group taught with handouts,
highlighting important steps or points of interest.   

Registration required for all classes.  To register and for more
information, please see a librarian at the Forest Grove City Library
2114 Pacific Ave. or call (503) 992-3337.  All classes assume prior
knowledge about how to use a mouse and keyboard.  See below for the
summer schedule.  Classes are taught by qualified volunteers and by
library staff.

Open Computer Lab

June 18th, 10-11am: New to the Internet
July 16th, 10-11am: E-mail and Social Networking
August 20th, 10-11am: Internet Searching

Special Topics

June 24th, 6-7:15pm: Free Home and Office Tools
Learn about free alternatives to Microsoft Office applications including
Google Docs, Open Office, and Zoho.

July 22nd, 6-7:15pm: TBA

Contact Shannon Romtvedt for questions by phone @ (503) 992-3337 or
e-mail fgl-reference at wccls.org.

From
Linda Minor
Reference Services Supervisor



From lindam at wccls.org  Fri Jun 11 15:06:55 2010
From: lindam at wccls.org (Linda Minor)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:06:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Open Mic and Writers Workshops @ the Library
Message-ID: <94DD37F0A1DC734096E7762868418AD501609827@WCCLSWEBSTER.wccls.lib.or.us>


Writers in the Grove and the Forest Grove City Library are co-sponsoring
free programs for writers this summer at the library.  Open Mic sessions
invite writers, ages 8-88+, to read their poetry, short story, or essay
on Wednesdays, 6-8pm, June 30th, July 28th, and August 25th in the
library meeting room.  Time limit for each reader is 5 minutes.  Open
Mic programs are family friendly and the public is welcome to come and
hear the readings.  Light refreshments served at intermission.

Writing workshops will be held Saturdays, 10:30am-Noon July 17th and
August 21st.   Workshops focus on prompt writing, critiquing, and
editing for submission.  

All programs will be held at the Forest Grove City Library 2114 Pacific
Ave. Forest Grove, OR.  Contact Shannon Romtvedt for questions by phone
(503) 992-3337 or e-mail fgl-reference at wccls.org.  



Linda Minor
Reference Services Supervisor

Forest Grove City Library
2114 Pacific Ave
Forest Grove OR 97116
503 992-3280
503 992-3333 (F)


From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 11 18:22:44 2010
From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <1770801736.2908361276282728136.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1770801736.2908361276282728136.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <174199.41840.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Taxes and where to cut are so multi-faceted that most of us can not connect all the dots to be certain of the truth.
Possibly the truth is that everywhere that can and should be cut has been. If this indeed is the case then maybe it is 
time to come to the realization that we need to pay more taxes for all the things we wish to be provided by "the government".

I certainly can not see the entire picture, but I believe there are a very very few who actually can.

Vickie




________________________________
From: "gritton.family at comcast.net" <gritton.family at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:58:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later

The budget short fall is going to create a lot of havoc and loss of instruction time no matter how the district chooses to deal with it. While I am not sure I like the idea of losing 1/2 hour each Wed. morning for teacher collaboration time, I mostly don't want the district to cut teachers if only because doing so will lead to larger class sizes which I believe would have a greater impact on not only the teachers' ability to teach effectively, but on the students' learning opportunities. Having taught many years ago, I found out just how true this was. By the end of the year, due to changes the school had needed to make to a few PE classes, my largest class had 34 students while my smallest had 14. Can you guess which one I was able to spend more time teaching and less time keeping attention in? Sigh. Individual instruction time is a lot harder to achieve in a larger setting, and if teachers are laid off, the only solution will be larger class sizes. So,
 while the possibility of losing 8 days next year is frustrating, I would support that over losing teachers. 

It seems to me that finding out exactly how the district wants to use that extra 1/2 hr. for teachers would be helpful. If it is to be used only for teachers to work together on upcoming projects, it might be helpful, or even to allow students to come in for some extra help once or twice a month, but if it'll be used for administrative business, etc., that doesn't meet my idea of improving our children's education. 

However, with the current anticipated losses, it seems like it would make more sense to wait on implementing this change, or else to have school end 1/2 hour earlier as most working parents already have after school care planned for, but mornings are when parents usually are able to drop their children off at school instead of at a sitter's. 

Cindy Gritton 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net> 
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com> 
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later 

The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start school 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning this fall. It seems this would have a significant impact on all families, although it appears most are unaware of this. The announcement about this "Late Start" is at the bottom of the main website page: 
http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/ 



In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for all students. This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut, in response to the budget shortfall. But, the "Late Start" has no direct impact on the budget, because it is supposed to provide time for the teachers to collaborate with each other. 



This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on Monday, June 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget portion of the meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board meeting begins at 7:00. I urge anyone who would like more information about the "Late Start" to attend. 



Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda: 

http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347de257e96a 



Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class. But I urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact of this "late start" on our students and your family. 



Marian Cakarnis 

503-357-2805 
_______________________________________________ 
GroveNet mailing list 
GroveNet at rdrop.com 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 20:21:53 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:21:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] If you owned it, how would you vote
Message-ID: <87D631BC-0B79-42AC-BA06-22F07DB6C061@verizon.net>

If you owned $200K worth of BP stock and you were a congressman, how  
would you vote on oil issues impacting your own interests????

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/10/jim-sensenbrenner-bp- 
inve_n_608107.html


If you don't own BP stock but you were a constituent of a congressman  
owning lots of BP stock would you rather have the government help  
pick up the tab for the clean up as Republican minority leader  
Boehner wants or would you rather have BP pay for it?

http://www.businessinsider.com/boehner-bp-2010-6


Aww, how sweet that the republicans want to bail out big oil and not  
make them pay for the damages.


Katie



From khourym at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 21:17:18 2010
From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:17:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <174199.41840.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1770801736.2908361276282728136.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<174199.41840.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <10108630-11B3-485B-A98B-572FB16A8F38@verizon.net>

At Joseph Gale, they suggested that school would start about 5 minutes  
earlier the rest of the week to make up for the lost half hour. They  
did send a note home soliciting feedback. That was months ago. -- 
Martha Khoury

On Jun 11, 2010, at 6:22 PM, Vickie Madeoneup wrote:

> Taxes and where to cut are so multi-faceted that most of us can not  
> connect all the dots to be certain of the truth.
> Possibly the truth is that everywhere that can and should be cut has  
> been. If this indeed is the case then maybe it is
> time to come to the realization that we need to pay more taxes for  
> all the things we wish to be provided by "the government".
>
> I certainly can not see the entire picture, but I believe there are  
> a very very few who actually can.
>
> Vickie
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "gritton.family at comcast.net" <gritton.family at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:58:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2  
> hour later
>
> The budget short fall is going to create a lot of havoc and loss of  
> instruction time no matter how the district chooses to deal with it.  
> While I am not sure I like the idea of losing 1/2 hour each Wed.  
> morning for teacher collaboration time, I mostly don't want the  
> district to cut teachers if only because doing so will lead to  
> larger class sizes which I believe would have a greater impact on  
> not only the teachers' ability to teach effectively, but on the  
> students' learning opportunities. Having taught many years ago, I  
> found out just how true this was. By the end of the year, due to  
> changes the school had needed to make to a few PE classes, my  
> largest class had 34 students while my smallest had 14. Can you  
> guess which one I was able to spend more time teaching and less time  
> keeping attention in? Sigh. Individual instruction time is a lot  
> harder to achieve in a larger setting, and if teachers are laid off,  
> the only solution will be larger class sizes. So,
> while the possibility of losing 8 days next year is frustrating, I  
> would support that over losing teachers.
>
> It seems to me that finding out exactly how the district wants to  
> use that extra 1/2 hr. for teachers would be helpful. If it is to be  
> used only for teachers to work together on upcoming projects, it  
> might be helpful, or even to allow students to come in for some  
> extra help once or twice a month, but if it'll be used for  
> administrative business, etc., that doesn't meet my idea of  
> improving our children's education.
>
> However, with the current anticipated losses, it seems like it would  
> make more sense to wait on implementing this change, or else to have  
> school end 1/2 hour earlier as most working parents already have  
> after school care planned for, but mornings are when parents usually  
> are able to drop their children off at school instead of at a  
> sitter's.
>
> Cindy Gritton
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour  
> later
>
> The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start  
> school 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning  
> this fall. It seems this would have a significant impact on all  
> families, although it appears most are unaware of this. The  
> announcement about this "Late Start" is at the bottom of the main  
> website page:
> http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
>
>
>
> In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our  
> students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the  
> equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for  
> all students. This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut,  
> in response to the budget shortfall. But, the "Late Start" has no  
> direct impact on the budget, because it is supposed to provide time  
> for the teachers to collaborate with each other.
>
>
>
> This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on  
> Monday, June 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget  
> portion of the meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board  
> meeting begins at 7:00. I urge anyone who would like more  
> information about the "Late Start" to attend.
>
>
>
> Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
>
> http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347de257e96a
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.  
> But I urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact  
> of this "late start" on our students and your family.
>
>
>
> Marian Cakarnis
>
> 503-357-2805
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From debbratland at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 21:46:45 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:46:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <10108630-11B3-485B-A98B-572FB16A8F38@verizon.net>
References: <1770801736.2908361276282728136.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<174199.41840.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<10108630-11B3-485B-A98B-572FB16A8F38@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMPY6EjYhTe-iJANr1ZbdXlx0_G10EOE0SA5TP@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting information about starting early to make up for the loss of
instructional time on Wednesdays.  I believe NAMS is going to start 3 or
4 minutes early (8:00 instead of 8:04?), but that's to make up for having a
15-minute homeroom advisory period every day.  At least, that's the latest
I've heard about the NAMS schedule.

8th Grade Promotion Celebration tonight - and it was great!  I loved that it
seemed like the whole town turned out for the awards ceremony.

Deb Bratland

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Martha Khoury <khourym at verizon.net> wrote:

> At Joseph Gale, they suggested that school would start about 5 minutes
> earlier the rest of the week to make up for the lost half hour. They
> did send a note home soliciting feedback. That was months ago. --
> Martha Khoury
>
> On Jun 11, 2010, at 6:22 PM, Vickie Madeoneup wrote:
>
> > Taxes and where to cut are so multi-faceted that most of us can not
> > connect all the dots to be certain of the truth.
> > Possibly the truth is that everywhere that can and should be cut has
> > been. If this indeed is the case then maybe it is
> > time to come to the realization that we need to pay more taxes for
> > all the things we wish to be provided by "the government".
> >
> > I certainly can not see the entire picture, but I believe there are
> > a very very few who actually can.
> >
> > Vickie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "gritton.family at comcast.net" <gritton.family at comcast.net>
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:58:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2
> > hour later
> >
> > The budget short fall is going to create a lot of havoc and loss of
> > instruction time no matter how the district chooses to deal with it.
> > While I am not sure I like the idea of losing 1/2 hour each Wed.
> > morning for teacher collaboration time, I mostly don't want the
> > district to cut teachers if only because doing so will lead to
> > larger class sizes which I believe would have a greater impact on
> > not only the teachers' ability to teach effectively, but on the
> > students' learning opportunities. Having taught many years ago, I
> > found out just how true this was. By the end of the year, due to
> > changes the school had needed to make to a few PE classes, my
> > largest class had 34 students while my smallest had 14. Can you
> > guess which one I was able to spend more time teaching and less time
> > keeping attention in? Sigh. Individual instruction time is a lot
> > harder to achieve in a larger setting, and if teachers are laid off,
> > the only solution will be larger class sizes. So,
> > while the possibility of losing 8 days next year is frustrating, I
> > would support that over losing teachers.
> >
> > It seems to me that finding out exactly how the district wants to
> > use that extra 1/2 hr. for teachers would be helpful. If it is to be
> > used only for teachers to work together on upcoming projects, it
> > might be helpful, or even to allow students to come in for some
> > extra help once or twice a month, but if it'll be used for
> > administrative business, etc., that doesn't meet my idea of
> > improving our children's education.
> >
> > However, with the current anticipated losses, it seems like it would
> > make more sense to wait on implementing this change, or else to have
> > school end 1/2 hour earlier as most working parents already have
> > after school care planned for, but mornings are when parents usually
> > are able to drop their children off at school instead of at a
> > sitter's.
> >
> > Cindy Gritton
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net>
> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:42:00 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> > Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour
> > later
> >
> > The Forest Grove School District Administration is planning to start
> > school 30 minutes later for all students every Wednesday, beginning
> > this fall. It seems this would have a significant impact on all
> > families, although it appears most are unaware of this. The
> > announcement about this "Late Start" is at the bottom of the main
> > website page:
> > http://www.fgsd.k12.or.us/
> >
> >
> >
> > In addition to the inconvenience to many families, the impact on our
> > students is significant. Starting ? hour later on Wednesdays is the
> > equivalent of missing at least 12 hours of instructional time for
> > all students. This is in addition to the 8 days rumored to be cut,
> > in response to the budget shortfall. But, the "Late Start" has no
> > direct impact on the budget, because it is supposed to provide time
> > for the teachers to collaborate with each other.
> >
> >
> >
> > This plan will be reviewed at the next school board meeting on
> > Monday, June 14 in the Grove Room at the District office. The budget
> > portion of the meeting begins at 6:30 and the regular school board
> > meeting begins at 7:00. I urge anyone who would like more
> > information about the "Late Start" to attend.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is a link to the School Board meeting agenda:
> >
> >
> http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/Superintendent/June%2014,%202010%20binder.pdf?sessionid=b94afb7abbbc5f324312347de257e96a
> >
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend because I have a class.
> > But I urge you to attend this meeting to fully understand the impact
> > of this "late start" on our students and your family.
> >
> >
> >
> > Marian Cakarnis
> >
> > 503-357-2805
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 12 00:53:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:53:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] If you owned it, how would you vote
In-Reply-To: <87D631BC-0B79-42AC-BA06-22F07DB6C061@verizon.net>
References: <87D631BC-0B79-42AC-BA06-22F07DB6C061@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7CC9E2BA-F907-4E33-8B82-B2A5D1CCBBAB@verizon.net>

I guess the Republican leaders are just Socialists at heart.

David

On Jun 11, 2010, at 8:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Aww, how sweet that the republicans want to bail out big oil and not make them pay for the damages.
> 
> Katie




From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Jun 12 05:49:56 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 05:49:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
In-Reply-To: <015801cb09ab$da7fd760$8f7f8620$@com>
References: <015801cb09ab$da7fd760$8f7f8620$@com>
Message-ID: <2DA3B081-7198-47D2-A88B-4EFDAF2E3E12@teleport.com>

Interesting! I'd observed tje results, but never knew how the "bubble- 
ring" was formed.
\WW
On Jun 11, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
> http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201006113
>
> Engineer James Bird estimates that he watched thousands of bubbles  
> pop while
> he was getting his Ph.D. at Harvard University. With the help of  
> high-speed
> cameras, Bird and his colleagues discovered that when interfacial
> bubbles--bubbles resting on water or a solid--pop, they give birth  
> to a ring
> of baby bubbles. The discovery, published in
> <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7299/full/ 
> nature09069.html>
> Nature, has implications for soda drinkers and global climate  
> estimates.
> (Credits: footage, images courtesy of James Bird et. al., Nature)  
> See More
> Videos <http://www.sciencefriday.com/video/>
>
> High-speed, high-definition video reveals the secret world of popping
> bubbles.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 12 10:19:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:19:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] If you owned it, how would you vote
References: <87D631BC-0B79-42AC-BA06-22F07DB6C061@verizon.net>
	<7CC9E2BA-F907-4E33-8B82-B2A5D1CCBBAB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C13C185.00000B.02144@DON-B2514E06367>

Well folks, at times like this I have to fall back on my democrat background
 which dictates that big oil pays for their mistakes instead of the American
people.

On the other hand, America is in debt 13 trillion dollars, and China holds
that debt. That bothers me.

It further bothers me that, at the same time, 400 million dollars, if the
proposal passes, is slated for the Palestinians in general, with 10 million
dollars slated for Gaza.

Aside from the Obama support for Palestinians, many of whom are terrorists,
this is money we do not have.

News for 400 million for Palestinians

Don
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 06/12/10 00:54:32
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] If you owned it, how would you vote
 
I guess the Republican leaders are just Socialists at heart.
 
David
 
On Jun 11, 2010, at 8:21 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
 
> Aww, how sweet that the republicans want to bail out big oil and not make
them pay for the damages.
>
> Katie
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 12 10:41:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:41:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
References: <015801cb09ab$da7fd760$8f7f8620$@com>
	<2DA3B081-7198-47D2-A88B-4EFDAF2E3E12@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C13C6AA.000013.02144@DON-B2514E06367>

Same here, observed many times, but never thought one could earn a Phd by
studying bubbles and their progeny. 

I wonder how this works in relation to weather in general. The engineer
apparently feels that bubbles popping help to form clouds, and we generally
know what clouds do.

Don    
 

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Walt Wentz
Date: 6/12/2010 5:50:06 AM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
 
Interesting! I'd observed tje results, but never knew how the "bubble-
ring" was formed.
\WW
On Jun 11, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
 
> Video Pick of the Week: Bubble Physics
> http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201006113
>
> Engineer James Bird estimates that he watched thousands of bubbles
> pop while
> he was getting his Ph.D. at Harvard University. With the help of
> high-speed
> cameras, Bird and his colleagues discovered that when interfacial
> bubbles--bubbles resting on water or a solid--pop, they give birth
> to a ring
> of baby bubbles. The discovery, published in
> <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7299/full/
> nature09069.html>
> Nature, has implications for soda drinkers and global climate
> estimates.
> (Credits: footage, images courtesy of James Bird et. al., Nature)
> See More
> Videos <http://www.sciencefriday.com/video/>
>
> High-speed, high-definition video reveals the secret world of popping
> bubbles.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 12 22:39:36 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:39:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] If you owned it, how would you vote
In-Reply-To: <4C13C185.00000B.02144@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <87D631BC-0B79-42AC-BA06-22F07DB6C061@verizon.net>
	<7CC9E2BA-F907-4E33-8B82-B2A5D1CCBBAB@verizon.net>
	<4C13C185.00000B.02144@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <3508C9BD-5D29-4ECE-97B9-26430C9B273D@verizon.net>


On Jun 12, 2010, at 10:19 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Well folks, at times like this I have to fall back on my democrat background which dictates that big oil pays for their mistakes instead of the American people.
> 
> On the other hand, America is in debt 13 trillion dollars, and China holds that debt. That bothers me.
> 
> It further bothers me that, at the same time, 400 million dollars, if the proposal passes, is slated for the Palestinians in general, with 10 million dollars slated for Gaza.
> 
> Aside from the Obama support for Palestinians, many of whom are terrorists, this is money we do not have.
> 
> News for 400 million for Palestinians
> 
> Don

To see the current projects
http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/home.html

They are civilian projects.

The proposal isn't going to Hamas
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/06/11/111106.html

Israel is getting 2.775 Billion in military aid
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/aid2010.html

That is going to U.S. defense companies.

Would that qualify as socialism?

David




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 12 22:40:34 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:40:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Forest Grove School District to start 1/2 hour later
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik4wCPMMKRB3AkzB8N9dw-s-npTEerPR50Q7d7U@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6D8F3052473642309D1E60E49DBDB385@JeffVAIO>
	<00e301cb0985$55c7f820$0157e860$@com>
	<AANLkTik4wCPMMKRB3AkzB8N9dw-s-npTEerPR50Q7d7U@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BAFA07E-C90B-4994-9AC6-E229A7F77E28@verizon.net>

HI, welcome to Grovenet.


On Jun 11, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Debra Bratland wrote:

> Hi Grovenet -
> 
> My name is Deb Bratland and I'm new to Grovenet. ...
> 
> Deb


From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 12 23:33:30 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 23:33:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican leader proposes strong federal action
	against BP
In-Reply-To: <00b601cb0932$622ef350$268cd9f0$@com>
References: <A2270675-1143-43CD-98CF-B85FC009EBBA@verizon.net>
	<00b601cb0932$622ef350$268cd9f0$@com>
Message-ID: <3211F06D-6FEE-43C1-B5C5-5C69F04ED4DC@verizon.net>

I first read the quotes from a third party.  That didn't qualify as a good source.  

The quotes I posted were taken from the Sarah Palin Facebook account, which appears to be sufficiently reliable to attach the quotes to Governor Palin.

I am amused that the party of "NO government interference in the free market" would take to charging the Administration with being too lax in interfering with the free market.

Remember when Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana went on record as opposing Federal planning for volcano disasters?  

<quote>
While some of the projects in the bill make sense, their legislation is larded with wasteful spending. It includes ... $140 million for something called "volcano monitoring."  Instead of monitoring volcanoes, what Congress should be monitoring is the eruption of spending in Washington, D.C.
</quote> 
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/02/full-text-of-go.html

Now he is frustrated that the federal planning for oil spill disasters is not going well.

?We have been frustrated with the disjointed effort to date that has too often meant too little too late to stop the oil from hitting our coast. We need folks in each basin that can mobilize resources quickly to contain oil when it arrives, not wait 24 hours or 48 hours. BP is the Responsible Party but we need the federal government to make sure they are held accountable and that they are indeed responsible. Our way of life depends on it. The actions taken to respond to this oil today are determining the future of our state.?
http://gov.louisiana.gov/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=2&articleID=2193

Funny.  Ask any sports coach.  You don't get great team play without practice, and you don't get practice without putting in the time and effort.  And you don't put the team together the morning of the tournament.

That is why the federal government spends money on things like volcano monitoring, hurricane research, and ocean current modeling.  You know, those "pork barrel" projects that can be best handled by private enterprise.  If you want to have them when the crisis hits, you have to fund them before the crisis hits.  That doesn't guarantee that they will work as expected.  But, refusing to fund them, DOES guarantee that they will NOT be there, when you need them.

David

On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:50 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> First, I was absolutely shocked to find out that these quoted bits were attributed to Ms. Palin.
> 
>> From: David Morelli
>> 
>> <quote>
>> Mr. President: with all due respect, you have to get involved, sir. The priorities and timeline of an oil ...
http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/less-talkin-more-kickin/397148258434


From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Sun Jun 13 19:31:41 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:31:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Soul For Sale
Message-ID: <201006131931.41940.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

Imagine being invited to display/participate in the anniversary of the opening 
of one of the top art museums in the world. Well, while Forest Grove slumbered 
last month, former Grovers Barbara Kinzle and Birch Cooper, along with the 
other three members of the Oregon Painting Society, were entertaining visitors 
to the three day celebration of the tenth anniversary of the Tate Modern in 
London:

http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/exhibitions/nosoulforsale/default.shtm

http://www.nosoulforsale.com/2010#oregon_painting_society. 

A pretty incredible opportunity for a couple of twenty-somethings. 

Some photos from the floor of the Turbin Hall at
http://picasaweb.google.com/FGBliss/TateModern#

The Tate Modern occupies a former power plant on the south bank of the Thames. 
A footbridge (Millennium Bridge) links the Tate Modern to the vicinity of St. 
Paul's (visible in one of the photos). The huge Turbin Hall was divided into 
squares, one for each group, with red tape visible in the photos.





From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 13 22:17:00 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:17:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>

Today, I observed the graduation of the Portland State University Class of 2010.  When they sang the National Anthem, there was only one person who put their hand on their heart.  Does that mean the thousands of people who were present were exhibiting "negative actions"?  Does everyone who attended the graduation event "hate" America.

Heck no.  They stood respectfully and some even sang along.  

The hand on the heart does not tell the whole story.

David

On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:11 PM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it. The reason he does not say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final verses of the song:



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 00:32:32 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:32:32 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>

David, I have to admit I have always seen it as a tradition followed by
patriotic Americans, but it is a bit more than that, it is a law.

United States Code, 36 U.S.C. ? 301, states that during a rendition of the
national anthem, when the flag is displayed, all present except those in
uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over
the heart; Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present and not
in uniform may render the military salute; men not in uniform should remove
their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left
shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and individuals in uniform should
give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that
position until the last note; and when the flag is not displayed, all
present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would
if the flag were displayed. The national anthem is also played on U.S.
Military installations at the beginning of the duty day (0600) and at the
end of duty day (1700). Military law requires all vehicles on the
installation to stop when the song is played and all individuals outside to
stand at attention and face the direction of the music and either salute, in
uniform, or place the right hand over the heart, if out of uniform. Recently
enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans to salute out of uniform, as
well.

I don't know why we are even having this discussion. Tradition is pretty
well understood by all of us, whether or not we want to admit it.

Thank you

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/13/2010 10:17:51 PM
To: donkelly;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Today, I observed the graduation of the Portland State University Class of
2010.  When they sang the National Anthem, there was only one person who put
their hand on their heart.  Does that mean the thousands of people who were
present were exhibiting "negative actions"?  Does everyone who attended the
graduation event "hate" America.
 
Heck no.  They stood respectfully and some even sang along.
 
The hand on the heart does not tell the whole story.
 
David
 
On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:11 PM, donkelly wrote:
 
> ...
> America loves and honors our patriotic song, but our president does not honor it, and from his negative actions, apparently hates it. The reason he does not say, but perhaps a clue to why is found in the final verses of the song:
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 01:46:35 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 01:46:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> David, I have to admit I have always seen it as a tradition
> followed by patriotic Americans, but it is a bit more than
> that, it is a law.

No one is *required* to do the things mentioned in this section US Code.  If
they were *required*, the US Code would use the word "must".  Instead, it
uses the words "should" and "may", meaning it's recommended, but entirely
optional. It amounts to little more than a statutory suggestion and doesn't
carry with it any penalties whatsoever.

As an ironic aside, since you're a Constitutionalist, I'm surprised you
can't automatically see the *glaring* First Amendment issues with forcing
people to make displays of patriotism if they don't feel inclined to and
then levying punishment upon them if they choose not to do so.

> United States Code, 36 U.S.C. ? 301, states that [...] should
> [...] may [...] should [...] should [...] should [...] 

It isn't until further down where it gets in to things that are required by
law:

"Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to
 stop when the song is played and all individuals outside
 to stand at attention and face the direction of the music
 and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand
 over the heart, if out of uniform."

And really, the US Code isn't making law here, it's merely referencing
requirements for military personnel that are contained within the UCMJ --
military law -- something us civilians (veterans or not) aren't bound by.

Notice that out of uniform veterans are not allowed to salute, well, until
the change in 2008 that's referenced:

"Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans
 to salute out of uniform, as well."

Again, it's not making law with this statement, but merely referencing an
already existing law, this one for civilians that are veterans out of
uniform, but makes the act of saluting allowable, yet optional with the use
of the word "may" and not "must".

With your claims of legal schooling and experience, I'm very surprised to
see you so obviously drop the ball on the most basic of elements where
indicator words like "may", "should", "must", etc. are used.

> I don't know why we are even having this discussion.
> Tradition is pretty well understood by all of us,
> whether or not we want to admit it.

Perhaps because traditions change over time to suit the generations that are
observing the tradition?  Or, perhaps that your understanding of the
how/when of this particular tradition isn't based on fact.

You may not know this, but our country went 155 years without a National
Anthem to listen or sing along to while our hands were(n't) over our heart.
It wasn't until 1931 that the Star Spangled Banner was given the illustrious
title of being our National Anthem, however it said nothing whatsoever about
the hand of the heart while it was being played.  In fact, nothing was
mentioned about etiquette for the performance of the National Anthem.  Now,
this may shock you, but subsection b wasn't even added to Section 301 of
Title 36 [2] of the US Code until 1998.  Prior to that, the only defined
etiquette involving the hand over the heart was for the Pledge of
Allegiance, which was added to Title 4 [1] in 1942.  Even then, the only
reason to codify the Pledge of Allegiance was to get rid of the Bellamy
salute that had accompanied the recitation of the pledge since its
introduction in 1892.  The Bellamy salute fell out of favor due to
similarity to the Nazi salute.

So, while placing the hand over the heart while the National Anthem was
playing may have been practiced as a matter of personal tradition prior to
1998, it wasn't yet codified and therefore not a recognized tradition and
has not been so recognized but for a paltry 12 years.

Speaking of tradition, even our Pledge of Allegiance has undergone some, uh,
modification, over the years.  In 1954, 12 years after the Pledge of
Allegiance was codified as our official pledge to the flag, the words "under
god" were added to it.  Does my intentional reciting of it without those
words mean I'm unpatriotic?  I *am*, after all, reciting the original
version, am I not?

[1] - Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4
      http://tinyurl.com/title-4

[2] - Title 36, Subtitle 1, Chapter 3, Section 301
      http://tinyurl.com/title-36

Jeff




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 04:58:30 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 04:58:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
Message-ID: <1EF95575B4004B8BAA14F8324E49DB27@GeriPC>

Jeff, to Don: "As an ironic aside, since you're a Constitutionalist..."

Hey, where's the "proof??!!"  Jeff, have you seen any?   :-o


;-)  Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jeff Howden" <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 1:46 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> David, I have to admit I have always seen it as a tradition
>> followed by patriotic Americans, but it is a bit more than
>> that, it is a law.
>
> No one is *required* to do the things mentioned in this section US Code. 
> If
> they were *required*, the US Code would use the word "must".  Instead, it
> uses the words "should" and "may", meaning it's recommended, but entirely
> optional. It amounts to little more than a statutory suggestion and 
> doesn't
> carry with it any penalties whatsoever.
>
> As an ironic aside, since you're a Constitutionalist, I'm surprised you
> can't automatically see the *glaring* First Amendment issues with forcing
> people to make displays of patriotism if they don't feel inclined to and
> then levying punishment upon them if they choose not to do so.
>
>> United States Code, 36 U.S.C. ? 301, states that [...] should
>> [...] may [...] should [...] should [...] should [...]
>
> It isn't until further down where it gets in to things that are required 
> by
> law:
>
> "Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to
> stop when the song is played and all individuals outside
> to stand at attention and face the direction of the music
> and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand
> over the heart, if out of uniform."
>
> And really, the US Code isn't making law here, it's merely referencing
> requirements for military personnel that are contained within the UCMJ --
> military law -- something us civilians (veterans or not) aren't bound by.
>
> Notice that out of uniform veterans are not allowed to salute, well, until
> the change in 2008 that's referenced:
>
> "Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans
> to salute out of uniform, as well."
>
> Again, it's not making law with this statement, but merely referencing an
> already existing law, this one for civilians that are veterans out of
> uniform, but makes the act of saluting allowable, yet optional with the 
> use
> of the word "may" and not "must".
>
> With your claims of legal schooling and experience, I'm very surprised to
> see you so obviously drop the ball on the most basic of elements where
> indicator words like "may", "should", "must", etc. are used.
>
>> I don't know why we are even having this discussion.
>> Tradition is pretty well understood by all of us,
>> whether or not we want to admit it.
>
> Perhaps because traditions change over time to suit the generations that 
> are
> observing the tradition?  Or, perhaps that your understanding of the
> how/when of this particular tradition isn't based on fact.
>
> You may not know this, but our country went 155 years without a National
> Anthem to listen or sing along to while our hands were(n't) over our 
> heart.
> It wasn't until 1931 that the Star Spangled Banner was given the 
> illustrious
> title of being our National Anthem, however it said nothing whatsoever 
> about
> the hand of the heart while it was being played.  In fact, nothing was
> mentioned about etiquette for the performance of the National Anthem. 
> Now,
> this may shock you, but subsection b wasn't even added to Section 301 of
> Title 36 [2] of the US Code until 1998.  Prior to that, the only defined
> etiquette involving the hand over the heart was for the Pledge of
> Allegiance, which was added to Title 4 [1] in 1942.  Even then, the only
> reason to codify the Pledge of Allegiance was to get rid of the Bellamy
> salute that had accompanied the recitation of the pledge since its
> introduction in 1892.  The Bellamy salute fell out of favor due to
> similarity to the Nazi salute.
>
> So, while placing the hand over the heart while the National Anthem was
> playing may have been practiced as a matter of personal tradition prior to
> 1998, it wasn't yet codified and therefore not a recognized tradition and
> has not been so recognized but for a paltry 12 years.
>
> Speaking of tradition, even our Pledge of Allegiance has undergone some, 
> uh,
> modification, over the years.  In 1954, 12 years after the Pledge of
> Allegiance was codified as our official pledge to the flag, the words 
> "under
> god" were added to it.  Does my intentional reciting of it without those
> words mean I'm unpatriotic?  I *am*, after all, reciting the original
> version, am I not?
>
> [1] - Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4
>      http://tinyurl.com/title-4
>
> [2] - Title 36, Subtitle 1, Chapter 3, Section 301
>      http://tinyurl.com/title-36
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From waltw at teleport.com  Mon Jun 14 07:27:32 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 07:27:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <D7FAF545-9660-4D1F-84C6-976A51B89DC2@teleport.com>

Don:
And how many ordinary people (such as us) either know of old  
tradition or the new law? Count the number of people who put their  
hands over their hearts (or even take off their greasy baseball caps)  
during the playing of the National Anthem at a sporting event or  
opening of some official proceeding. Aside from me, I generally get  
to one or two other aged peasants.
I am rather relieved to learn that the new law permits ex-servicemen  
to salute, however.  What with old training, I find that easier and  
more natural than the other gesture.
As you say,

> I don't know why we are even having this discussion.

Yep, I whole-hand-over-heartedly agree!

You seem to be just frantically scraping the bottom of the Internet  
for any isolated "evidence" or blog or fabrication or outright,  
hysterical, full-bore fib just to feed your Obamaphobia. So somebody  
once photographed Obama not saluting during the National Anthem? How  
many times?  How well documented? And more to the point, who gives a  
damn? Give it a rest, please. What with two endless wars, the  
national economy going to Hades, the economic divide becoming a  
bottomless chasm as the jobs and industries are shipped overseas, and  
corporate greed and malfeasance destroying the Gulf Coast, both Obama  
and us have more important things to think and talk about. And sanity  
demands that occasionally "we must cultivate our gardens."
WW


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 09:52:38 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:52:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
Message-ID: <4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the meaning of 'may'.

I also know that you understand what I am talking about.

Mostly for religious reasons, or non religious reasons, citizens are given
options to observe traditions, or not observe traditions. It is part of
<GASP> our freedoms.

As president, displays of patriotism are certainly expected by the people,
especially as commander of the military forces, whether or not he has a
uniform, he is still in the army and all national military services.

As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for loopholes, or is he just
plain unpatriotic?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/14/10 01:46:50
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> David, I have to admit I have always seen it as a tradition
> followed by patriotic Americans, but it is a bit more than
> that, it is a law.
 
No one is *required* to do the things mentioned in this section US Code.  If
they were *required*, the US Code would use the word "must".  Instead, it
uses the words "should" and "may", meaning it's recommended, but entirely
optional. It amounts to little more than a statutory suggestion and doesn't
carry with it any penalties whatsoever.
 
As an ironic aside, since you're a Constitutionalist, I'm surprised you
can't automatically see the *glaring* First Amendment issues with forcing
people to make displays of patriotism if they don't feel inclined to and
then levying punishment upon them if they choose not to do so.
 
> United States Code, 36 U.S.C. ? 301, states that [...] should
> [...] may [...] should [...] should [...] should [...]
 
It isn't until further down where it gets in to things that are required by
law:
 
"Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to
  stop when the song is played and all individuals outside
  to stand at attention and face the direction of the music
  and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand
  over the heart, if out of uniform."
 
And really, the US Code isn't making law here, it's merely referencing
requirements for military personnel that are contained within the UCMJ --
military law -- something us civilians (veterans or not) aren't bound by.
 
Notice that out of uniform veterans are not allowed to salute, well, until
the change in 2008 that's referenced:
 
"Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans
  to salute out of uniform, as well."
 
Again, it's not making law with this statement, but merely referencing an
already existing law, this one for civilians that are veterans out of
uniform, but makes the act of saluting allowable, yet optional with the use
of the word "may" and not "must".
 
With your claims of legal schooling and experience, I'm very surprised to
see you so obviously drop the ball on the most basic of elements where
indicator words like "may", "should", "must", etc. are used.
 
> I don't know why we are even having this discussion.
> Tradition is pretty well understood by all of us,
> whether or not we want to admit it.
 
Perhaps because traditions change over time to suit the generations that are
observing the tradition?  Or, perhaps that your understanding of the
how/when of this particular tradition isn't based on fact.
 
You may not know this, but our country went 155 years without a National
Anthem to listen or sing along to while our hands were(n't) over our heart.
It wasn't until 1931 that the Star Spangled Banner was given the illustrious
title of being our National Anthem, however it said nothing whatsoever about
the hand of the heart while it was being played.  In fact, nothing was
mentioned about etiquette for the performance of the National Anthem.  Now,
this may shock you, but subsection b wasn't even added to Section 301 of
Title 36 [2] of the US Code until 1998.  Prior to that, the only defined
etiquette involving the hand over the heart was for the Pledge of
Allegiance, which was added to Title 4 [1] in 1942.  Even then, the only
reason to codify the Pledge of Allegiance was to get rid of the Bellamy
salute that had accompanied the recitation of the pledge since its
introduction in 1892.  The Bellamy salute fell out of favor due to
similarity to the Nazi salute.
 
So, while placing the hand over the heart while the National Anthem was
playing may have been practiced as a matter of personal tradition prior to
1998, it wasn't yet codified and therefore not a recognized tradition and
has not been so recognized but for a paltry 12 years.
 
Speaking of tradition, even our Pledge of Allegiance has undergone some, uh,
modification, over the years.  In 1954, 12 years after the Pledge of
Allegiance was codified as our official pledge to the flag, the words "under
god" were added to it.  Does my intentional reciting of it without those
words mean I'm unpatriotic?  I *am*, after all, reciting the original
version, am I not?
 
[1] - Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4
      http://tinyurl.com/title-4
 
[2] - Title 36, Subtitle 1, Chapter 3, Section 301
      http://tinyurl.com/title-36
 
Jeff
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
-------------- next part --------------
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 10:01:18 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:01:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <E554D0CC-F4FA-4CE2-A202-8EEC02780274@verizon.net>

Which of your many inaccurate sources gave you the idea that  
President Obama has been disbarred?

Katie

On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:52 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the meaning of  
> 'may'.
>
> I also know that you understand what I am talking about.
>
> Mostly for religious reasons, or non religious reasons, citizens  
> are given
> options to observe traditions, or not observe traditions. It is  
> part of
> <GASP> our freedoms.
>
> As president, displays of patriotism are certainly expected by the  
> people,
> especially as commander of the military forces, whether or not he  
> has a
> uniform, he is still in the army and all national military services.
>
> As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for loopholes, or is  
> he just
> plain unpatriotic?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 06/14/10 01:46:50
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> David, I have to admit I have always seen it as a tradition
>> followed by patriotic Americans, but it is a bit more than
>> that, it is a law.
>
> No one is *required* to do the things mentioned in this section US  
> Code.  If
> they were *required*, the US Code would use the word "must".   
> Instead, it
> uses the words "should" and "may", meaning it's recommended, but  
> entirely
> optional. It amounts to little more than a statutory suggestion and  
> doesn't
> carry with it any penalties whatsoever.
>
> As an ironic aside, since you're a Constitutionalist, I'm surprised  
> you
> can't automatically see the *glaring* First Amendment issues with  
> forcing
> people to make displays of patriotism if they don't feel inclined  
> to and
> then levying punishment upon them if they choose not to do so.
>
>> United States Code, 36 U.S.C. ? 301, states that [...] should
>> [...] may [...] should [...] should [...] should [...]
>
> It isn't until further down where it gets in to things that are  
> required by
> law:
>
> "Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to
>   stop when the song is played and all individuals outside
>   to stand at attention and face the direction of the music
>   and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand
>   over the heart, if out of uniform."
>
> And really, the US Code isn't making law here, it's merely referencing
> requirements for military personnel that are contained within the  
> UCMJ --
> military law -- something us civilians (veterans or not) aren't  
> bound by.
>
> Notice that out of uniform veterans are not allowed to salute,  
> well, until
> the change in 2008 that's referenced:
>
> "Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans
>   to salute out of uniform, as well."
>
> Again, it's not making law with this statement, but merely  
> referencing an
> already existing law, this one for civilians that are veterans out of
> uniform, but makes the act of saluting allowable, yet optional with  
> the use
> of the word "may" and not "must".
>
> With your claims of legal schooling and experience, I'm very  
> surprised to
> see you so obviously drop the ball on the most basic of elements where
> indicator words like "may", "should", "must", etc. are used.
>
>> I don't know why we are even having this discussion.
>> Tradition is pretty well understood by all of us,
>> whether or not we want to admit it.
>
> Perhaps because traditions change over time to suit the generations  
> that are
> observing the tradition?  Or, perhaps that your understanding of the
> how/when of this particular tradition isn't based on fact.
>
> You may not know this, but our country went 155 years without a  
> National
> Anthem to listen or sing along to while our hands were(n't) over  
> our heart.
> It wasn't until 1931 that the Star Spangled Banner was given the  
> illustrious
> title of being our National Anthem, however it said nothing  
> whatsoever about
> the hand of the heart while it was being played.  In fact, nothing was
> mentioned about etiquette for the performance of the National  
> Anthem.  Now,
> this may shock you, but subsection b wasn't even added to Section  
> 301 of
> Title 36 [2] of the US Code until 1998.  Prior to that, the only  
> defined
> etiquette involving the hand over the heart was for the Pledge of
> Allegiance, which was added to Title 4 [1] in 1942.  Even then, the  
> only
> reason to codify the Pledge of Allegiance was to get rid of the  
> Bellamy
> salute that had accompanied the recitation of the pledge since its
> introduction in 1892.  The Bellamy salute fell out of favor due to
> similarity to the Nazi salute.
>
> So, while placing the hand over the heart while the National Anthem  
> was
> playing may have been practiced as a matter of personal tradition  
> prior to
> 1998, it wasn't yet codified and therefore not a recognized  
> tradition and
> has not been so recognized but for a paltry 12 years.
>
> Speaking of tradition, even our Pledge of Allegiance has undergone  
> some, uh,
> modification, over the years.  In 1954, 12 years after the Pledge of
> Allegiance was codified as our official pledge to the flag, the  
> words "under
> god" were added to it.  Does my intentional reciting of it without  
> those
> words mean I'm unpatriotic?  I *am*, after all, reciting the original
> version, am I not?
>
> [1] - Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4
>       http://tinyurl.com/title-4
>
> [2] - Title 36, Subtitle 1, Chapter 3, Section 301
>       http://tinyurl.com/title-36
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>___________________ 
> ____________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 10:36:09 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:36:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the
> meaning of 'may'.

Quit treating "may" as if it means "required" then.

> I also know that you understand what I am talking
> about.

Yes, making mountains out of molehills... again.

> Mostly for religious reasons, or non religious reasons,
> citizens are given options to observe traditions, or
> not observe traditions. It is part of <GASP> our
> freedoms.

No gasping.  I'm the one that brought to light that it's our freedoms that
permit us to show respect or to not show respect to our flag, participate or
not in the Pledge of Allegiance, or observe or not observe proper etiquette
while the National Anthem plays.

In fact, someone doesn't have to have any reasons whatsoever to not follow
these suggested elements of etiquette.  The First Amendment grants them that
right.

> As president, displays of patriotism are certainly
> expected by the people, [...]

Agreed.  However, he is not in violation of any law for being respectful in
his own way.  He also wouldn't ever please some of his distracters as they'd
simply look for some other item of "proof" that he was unfit, ineligible,
unpatriotic, etc.

> [...] especially as commander of the military
> forces, whether or not he has a uniform, he is
> still in the army and all national military
> services.

This is untrue, actually.  He is the commander in chief, but he is a
civilian, not "in" any of the armed services.

"The last two War Presidents, President Wilson
 and President Roosevelt, both clearly recognized
 the civilian nature of the President's position
 as Commander in Chief. President Roosevelt, in
 his Navy Day Campaign speech at Shibe Park,
 Philadelphia, on October 27, 1944, pronounced
 this principle as follows:-'It was due to no
 accident and no oversight that the framers of
 our Constitution put the command of our armed
 forces under civilian authority. It is the duty
 of the Commander in Chief to appoint the
 Secretaries of War and Navy and the Chiefs of
 Staff.' It is also to be noted that the
 Secretary of War, who is the regularly
 constituted organ of the President for the
 administration of the military establishment of
 the Nation, has been held by the Supreme Court
 of the United States to be merely a civilian
 officer, not in military service."

http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/article-2/13-commander-of-armed-force
s.html

> As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for
> loopholes, or is he just plain unpatriotic?

He was not disbarred, but voluntarily retired, ie didn't renew his license,
from the state of Illinois.

https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=446907163

If he was disbarred it'd indicate that under "Public Record of Discipline
and Pending Proceedings".

Or, maybe you just caught up to one of these Internet rumors, didn't notice
it was about Michelle and attribute it to Barack.

https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=754869520

Nope, she wasn't disbarred either.

Maybe you read the true story that birther Orly Taitz was up for possible
disbarment and immediately said to yourself, she's after Obama, so he must
be the one that's not possibly going to but already disbarred.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/california_bar_now_investi
gating_orly_taitz.php?ref=fpb

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 11:25:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:25:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
Message-ID: <4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes, both turned in their licenses to avoid punishment. In her case it was a
felony. She turned her's in to avoid a trial which would have publicized the
facts. 

Remember later that you brought this up.

So if anyone believes that a person would spend a quarter million dollars to
earn a law degree from a highly respected school of law, would then give it
up without a fight, or for some other compelling reason, there is a bridge
for sale in Brooklyn...........cheap. 

Bottom line, both were constructively disbarred, and no longer members in
good standing with the ABA. 
 
Don
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/14/2010 10:37:17 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the
> meaning of 'may'.
 
Quit treating "may" as if it means "required" then.
 
> I also know that you understand what I am talking
> about.
 
Yes, making mountains out of molehills... again.
 
> Mostly for religious reasons, or non religious reasons,
> citizens are given options to observe traditions, or
> not observe traditions. It is part of <GASP> our
> freedoms.
 
No gasping.  I'm the one that brought to light that it's our freedoms that
permit us to show respect or to not show respect to our flag, participate or
not in the Pledge of Allegiance, or observe or not observe proper etiquette
while the National Anthem plays.
 
In fact, someone doesn't have to have any reasons whatsoever to not follow
these suggested elements of etiquette.  The First Amendment grants them that
right.
 
> As president, displays of patriotism are certainly
> expected by the people, [...]
 
Agreed.  However, he is not in violation of any law for being respectful in
his own way.  He also wouldn't ever please some of his distracters as they'd
simply look for some other item of "proof" that he was unfit, ineligible,
unpatriotic, etc.
 
> [...] especially as commander of the military
> forces, whether or not he has a uniform, he is
> still in the army and all national military
> services.
 
This is untrue, actually.  He is the commander in chief, but he is a
civilian, not "in" any of the armed services.
 
"The last two War Presidents, President Wilson
  and President Roosevelt, both clearly recognized
  the civilian nature of the President's position
  as Commander in Chief. President Roosevelt, in
  his Navy Day Campaign speech at Shibe Park,
  Philadelphia, on October 27, 1944, pronounced
  this principle as follows:-'It was due to no
  accident and no oversight that the framers of
  our Constitution put the command of our armed
  forces under civilian authority. It is the duty
  of the Commander in Chief to appoint the
  Secretaries of War and Navy and the Chiefs of
  Staff.' It is also to be noted that the
  Secretary of War, who is the regularly
  constituted organ of the President for the
  administration of the military establishment of
  the Nation, has been held by the Supreme Court
  of the United States to be merely a civilian
  officer, not in military service."
 
http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/article-2/13-commander-of-armed-force
s.html
 
> As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for
> loopholes, or is he just plain unpatriotic?
 
He was not disbarred, but voluntarily retired, ie didn't renew his license,
from the state of Illinois.
 
https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=446907163
 
If he was disbarred it'd indicate that under "Public Record of Discipline
and Pending Proceedings".
 
Or, maybe you just caught up to one of these Internet rumors, didn't notice
it was about Michelle and attribute it to Barack.
 
https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=754869520
 
Nope, she wasn't disbarred either.
 
Maybe you read the true story that birther Orly Taitz was up for possible
disbarment and immediately said to yourself, she's after Obama, so he must
be the one that's not possibly going to but already disbarred.
 
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/california_bar_now_investi
gating_orly_taitz.php?ref=fpb
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 12:06:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:06:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Yes, both turned in their licenses to avoid punishment. In her
> case it was a felony. She turned her's in to avoid a trial
> which would have publicized the facts.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So if anyone believes that a person would spend a quarter
> million dollars to earn a law degree from a highly respected
> school of law, would then give it up without a fight, or for
> some other compelling reason, there is a bridge for sale in
> Brooklyn...........cheap.
> 
> Bottom line, both were constructively disbarred, and no
> longer members in good standing with the ABA.

Again, this is absolute nonsense.  This clearly shows just how poorly you
understand the legal system, how badly you want to taint either/both of
these individuals, and just how far you'll go to bend the truth or outright
lie to somehow make your point.  Further, the fact that you *refuse* to cite
any sources for your opinions calls your stated preference for documentation
to be nothing more than either a ruse or dishonest lip-service.

This is not your favorite source I realize, but it *does* state the elements
of the situation far more accurately and eloquently than you.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp

If the Obamas were disbarred, their record would look like this:

https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=969488918

Note the status: "Not authorized to practice law due to discipline".

Also, note the disciplinary action.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 12:10:59 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:10:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Getting to a clean-energy future
Message-ID: <4C167EBF.00003C.03248@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes, this email was addressed to me. 

Please take note that I am not carte blanch against programs supported by
the president.

I do use all of my options.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Mitch Stewart, BarackObama.com
Date: 6/14/2010 11:51:40 AM
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: Getting to a clean-energy future
 
Friend,
 
Thanks for standing with the President on clean energy -- this is a moment
we can't afford to miss.
 
The House has passed landmark energy legislation. And now, the Senate is
ready to take up the issue.
 
That's why it's so important that you stood with President Obama today. Let
s show that Americans are ready to pave the way to a clean-energy future for
our children and grandchildren.
 
Ask five friends today to join you in standing with the President. Just pass
along the email below.
 
Thanks,
 
Mitch
 
=============
 
Hi,
 
The oil spill disaster in the Gulf of Mexico is a tragedy -- one we can only
hope never happens again.
 
But the solution is about more than just addressing this crisis. As
President Obama said, "An America run solely on fossil fuels should not be
the vision we have for our children and our grandchildren."
 
The House has already passed comprehensive energy legislation -- and the
Senate is ready to take up the issue.
 
That's why I added my name today to show I stand with President Obama for a
clean-energy future.
 
Will you join me?
 
http://my.barackobama.com/CleanEnergy-auto
 
Thank you.
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 12:17:43 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:17:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself,
	"I am a Muslim."
Message-ID: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>

For the paranoid who believe that no one tells the truth about the president
 

Will you believe what the president of Egypt tells you? 

Or do you think he is part of an imagined conspiracy of liberal media to
avoid reporting real news?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Western Journalism
Date: 6/14/2010 11:55:25 AM
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself, "I am a Muslim."
 
  
  
Do not miss a single issue, add wcj at westernjournalism-info.com to your buddy
list, contact list or safe list. Do not reply to this e-mail. If you wish to
contact our staff, please use the contact us link at the bottom of this
e-mail



Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself, "I am a Muslim."
By Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

     Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said he had a one-on-one
meeting with Obama, in which President Obama told him that he was still a
Muslim, the son of a Muslim father, the stepson of Muslim stepfather, that
his half brothers in Kenya are Muslims, and that he was sympathetic towards
the Muslim agenda.
     "Finally, during the week of 14-18th of January 2010, just on the eve
of my winter tour to the US, Rachel picked up a Nile TV broadcast in which
Egyptian Foreign Minister Abul Gheit said on the "Round Table Show" that he
had had a one on one meeting with Obama who swore to him that he was a
Moslem, the son of a Moslem father and step-son of Moslem step-father, that
his half-brothers in Kenya were Moslems, and that he was loyal to the Moslem
agenda. He asked that the Moslem world show patience. Obama promised that
once he overcame some domestic American problems (Healthcare), that he would
show the Moslem world what he would do with Israel."

Read The Full Story: 




Election official: I'd testify Obama not born in Hawaii
By Joe Kovacs, World Net Daily

The former Honolulu elections clerk who says President Obama was "definitely
 not born in Hawaii and has no birth certificate from any hospital in the
Aloha State says he's willing to testify in court to those facts.
"The things I've said, I don't mind testifying in court," Tim Adams, the
senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in the 2008
campaign, told WND in an exclusive interview.
"I was working there, and this is what it was. I'm not a lawyer, just a
civil servant. I know what I know. I know what I was told by the hospitals
and by my supervisors."
Adams, a Hillary Clinton supporter who now teaches English at Western
Kentucky University while he works on his master's degree, burst...

Read The Full Story: 






Democratic Congressman Attacks Student Journalist!  






Video: Hawaii Election Clerk story grows on YouTube

The Hawaii Election Clerk story has now broken in on YouTube, where
thousands are beginning to watch. 
Last week a former Hawaiian election official named Tim Adams, who now
teaches in Kentucky, electrified the eligibility debate by claiming that it
is an open secret in Honolulu that Obama was not born there. In addition,
Adams was informed by his boss that they have no birth record for Obama. 
In a further update today, Adams is now confirming that he is willing to
testify about these facts. Click the link to watch the video and forward the
page to anyone you know to get the word out. We will not let the media and
the Obama administration cover this up. 

Watch the Video 





       

Sent to ocollaugh at comcast.net. Unsubscribe | Update Profile | Forward to a
Friend 

 
 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 14 12:32:20 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:32:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>

I think I already said that. 

If the search engines cannot find further, why? Cover up? Records closed by
Obama? What?

Is there a more palatable word for "discipline"? Or to avoid discipline?

Gee, Illinois don't have public records online for 1993?

I'll bet the rich guy who owns two gulf stream jets would have a choice
comment about extortion. 

How convenient.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/14/2010 12:06:22 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Yes, both turned in their licenses to avoid punishment. In her
> case it was a felony. She turned her's in to avoid a trial
> which would have publicized the facts.
>
> [...]
>
> So if anyone believes that a person would spend a quarter
> million dollars to earn a law degree from a highly respected
> school of law, would then give it up without a fight, or for
> some other compelling reason, there is a bridge for sale in
> Brooklyn...........cheap.
>
> Bottom line, both were constructively disbarred, and no
> longer members in good standing with the ABA.
 
Again, this is absolute nonsense.  This clearly shows just how poorly you
understand the legal system, how badly you want to taint either/both of
these individuals, and just how far you'll go to bend the truth or outright
lie to somehow make your point.  Further, the fact that you *refuse* to cite
any sources for your opinions calls your stated preference for documentation
to be nothing more than either a ruse or dishonest lip-service.
 
This is not your favorite source I realize, but it *does* state the elements
of the situation far more accurately and eloquently than you.
 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp
 
If the Obamas were disbarred, their record would look like this:
 
https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=969488918
 
Note the status: "Not authorized to practice law due to discipline".
 
Also, note the disciplinary action.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 13:06:07 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:06:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <FD1AD7F6-6A1A-4409-867B-87CFC816CE3B@verizon.net>

Here's one logical possibility.
If search engines cannot find further, then there may just be nothing  
to find.
No cover up necessary. If there are no records, there are no records  
to close.




Katie

On Jun 14, 2010, at 12:32 PM, donkelly wrote:

>
>
> If the search engines cannot find further, why? Cover up? Records  
> closed by
> Obama? What?
>
>



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 13:17:15 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:17:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I think I already said that.
> 
> If the search engines cannot find further, why? Cover
> up? Records closed by Obama? What?

It could mean any number of things which would include:

 - Lack of search prowess on the part of the user
 - Lack of data that exists to support user's search criteria

Neither of these demand that a cover up took place.

More than likely, if the myriad Obamaphobic horde can't come up with the
data, the data simply doesn't exist and never, ever did.  Meanwhile, you go
on and on about this, without a thread to hang on to, making vague
generalizations about some mass conspiracy going on, never bothering to do
even the most rudimentary research and citing of sources for your claims.

> How convenient.

How convenient, indeed.

Jeff



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Mon Jun 14 14:04:13 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:04:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

A full and detailed explanation of this particular vile canard is found at:

www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 1:17 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I think I already said that.
> 
> If the search engines cannot find further, why? Cover
> up? Records closed by Obama? What?

It could mean any number of things which would include:

 - Lack of search prowess on the part of the user
 - Lack of data that exists to support user's search criteria

Neither of these demand that a cover up took place.

More than likely, if the myriad Obamaphobic horde can't come up with the
data, the data simply doesn't exist and never, ever did.  Meanwhile, you go
on and on about this, without a thread to hang on to, making vague
generalizations about some mass conspiracy going on, never bothering to do
even the most rudimentary research and citing of sources for your claims.

> How convenient.

How convenient, indeed.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 15:06:17 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:06:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself,
	"I am a Muslim."
In-Reply-To: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <03a301cb0c0d$d09cb470$71d61d50$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Will you believe what the president of Egypt tells you?

No, I don't much care what the President of Egypt has to tell me.  I didn't
elect him, he doesn't represent me or my country, and he can't be held
accountable for lying to me.

> Or do you think he is part of an imagined conspiracy
> of liberal media to avoid reporting real news?

No, I think whatever statements are attributed to him lack credibility.

Even your claims about this lack credibility.  You refer to the source as
the President of Egypt, suggesting these things were said by Muhammad Hosni
Mubarak.  He's not the source.  You suggesting he is ought to be considered
an appeal to authority.

> Subject: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me
> himself, "I am a Muslim."

Geller, Isreal Today, and others (including you) are all involved in hearsay
-- enough said.

Jeff



From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Jun 14 16:39:28 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:39:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
Message-ID: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>

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From rab at jurislex.com  Mon Jun 14 17:02:30 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:02:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Air conditioning installer
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20100611085335.00ca60a0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20100611085335.00ca60a0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4C16C316.9090708@jurislex.com>

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From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 17:03:53 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:03:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>

You might like to check out a relatively new book called
"The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign Policy and  
Promoted the American Way Abroad"
By Robert Elias.

I heard an interesting review about how there were many attempts to  
get kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers  
when they got old enough to enter the military...
Among other things of course.

But back to soccer:
I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the article is that  
soccer is a poor man's game and schools are trying to 'push' it.   
Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately funding our schools that surely  
they could afford all the expensive rich man's games instead of  
cutting PE, music, and art....  Polo is probably on every schools  
list of things to add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again  
and again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to  
push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget cycle.

Katie


On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:

> I wonder what the 15 million red, white, and blue Americans  now  
> playing futbol (soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
>
> bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >From MediaMatters:
>
> http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
>
>
> As the World Cup starts, conservative media declare war on soccer
>
> As the 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media  
> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the tournament and  
> the sport of soccer. They have also used soccer as a proxy to  
> attack President Obama and progressives.
> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are the World Cup," soccer is "a  
> poor man or poor woman's sport"
>
> Glenn Beck: "Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an  
> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck purported to  
> explain how President Obama's policies "are the World Cup" of  
> "political thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to  
> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you get, it  
> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it doesn't matter how many  
> beer commercials they run, we don't want the World Cup, we don't  
> like the World Cup, we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do  
> with it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes  
> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
>
> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most  
> likely to riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the  
> baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,  
> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much, and they  
> riot over it, and they continually try to jam it down our throat."
>
> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"  
> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10 program,  
> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened to American  
> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that "this game ... originated with  
> the South American Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use  
> the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>
> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is designed as a poor man or poor woman's  
> sport," "the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the  
> country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research  
> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer is designed  
> as a poor man or poor woman's sport" and that "the left is pushing  
> it in schools across the country."  He added: "generally football  
> games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later  
> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as necessary due to  
> the "browning of America."
>
> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction  
> from soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic  
> senator's hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,  
> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to do is make fun  
> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to make fun of the World Cup  
> because when you insult soccer you get the same reaction from  
> soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic  
> senator's hair, they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."  
> Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the  
> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding this  
> down our throats."
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 17:05:11 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:05:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself,
	"I am a Muslim."
In-Reply-To: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <D4934E9E-3AD9-4D68-9A0A-EF00582B94DA@verizon.net>

In the video did he say it in perfect English with a South Carolina  
accent??

Katie

On Jun 14, 2010, at 12:17 PM, donkelly wrote:

>
>
>
> Will you believe what the president of Egypt tells you?
>
>



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 18:19:43 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:19:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7DA2B0B6-4A48-4AA9-8A92-FF5BAFA7C7F8@verizon.net>

Katie,

Spot on.  Fund our schools so that our children can have the "rich" activities they deserve, instead of the "poor" activities the budget can afford. 
As you say, instead of soccer they should have polo. 
Instead of choral groups, they should learn opera.
Instead of jazz horns, they should have proper violins and cellos.
Instead of chalk boards they should have video magnetrons.
Instead of soccer they should have lacrosse.  -- oops, wait, hold that, lacrosse was invented by Americans and played before the Europeans came here.  

I have watched riot or two in American cities that won a pennant or sports title.  They weren't soccer related either.

Football games don't devolve into riots or wars.  Maybe not, but when Saddam insulted President G.W. Bush's father, he blew it out of proportion, and we are still fighting there.

David



On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> ... Polo is probably on every schools list of things to add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again and again.  ...
> Katie

>> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most likely to riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the baseball riots." 
>> 
>> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?" ... "this game ... originated with the South American Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>> 
>> MRC's Dan Gainor:  "generally football games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." 
>> 
>> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction from soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic senator's hair." ... they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 18:40:28 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:40:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself,
	"I am a Muslim."
In-Reply-To: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C168054.000041.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <ED458D31-14EF-4043-BFB2-66A134ABBC84@verizon.net>

The Foreign Minister isn't the president of Egypt.  I know, it's a small thing, and you only care about small things when they can be blown out of proportion by you.

Perhaps he is trying to build bridges that were dismantled by his predecessor?
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/6859

Did Obama tell someone he was a Muslim?  I doubt it.

But, we do have video proof that an American President once announced to the world that he was a jelly donut!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6nQhss4Yc

Except of course, the phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" has two valid translations.
"I am a jelly donut" or "I am one with the people of Berlin".

The translation someone chooses to accept, says much more about their world view than it does about President Kennedy's meaning.  The people of Berlin, had no problem understanding what was said, and meant.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/jfk_berliner.htm

David

On Jun 14, 2010, at 12:17 PM, donkelly wrote:

> For the paranoid who believe that no one tells the truth about the president
> 
> Will you believe what the president of Egypt tells you? 
> 
> Or do you think he is part of an imagined conspiracy of liberal media to avoid reporting real news?
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 18:46:56 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:46:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <128B47E6-EF9B-4FC8-BB42-59D8166EF843@verizon.net>


On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:52 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the meaning of 'may'.

Jeff did a good joy of providing that information.

> 
> I also know that you understand what I am talking about.

Yes, irrational emotion which takes precedence over rational thought.

> As president, displays of patriotism are certainly expected by the people, especially as commander of the military forces, whether or not he has a uniform, he is still in the army and all national military services.

That was well addressed.  But, I don't expect you to modify your stand to reflect reality.
> 
> As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for loopholes, or is he just plain unpatriotic?

Oh, two for one!  And both wrong.  
> 
> Don 

David


From edavie at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 21:07:14 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:07:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Something else!
Message-ID: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>

Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
Ed

From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 21:16:43 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:16:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)

If 15 million Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million 
aren't?

As for being a "poor man" sport there is validity to that point.  The 
amount of equipment needed to play soccer is very little.  One person 
needs to have a ball.  That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put 
together makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc) 
but to play in the street nothing is needed.

For baseball each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the 
rest is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).

Football requires much more equipment.

Hockey, fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor, 
pucks, ice, etc).

Soccer also has a tough uphill battle for sports popularity.  Baseball 
is America's pastime.  Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is 
the most watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and 
all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and 
riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't easily 
compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and doesn't have 
violence.  It will grow in popularity but will never replace baseball or 
football in the hearts of America.

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign Policy and  
> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
> By Robert Elias.
>
> I heard an interesting review about how there were many attempts to  
> get kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers  
> when they got old enough to enter the military...
> Among other things of course.
>
> But back to soccer:
> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the article is that  
> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are trying to 'push' it.   
> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately funding our schools that surely  
> they could afford all the expensive rich man's games instead of  
> cutting PE, music, and art....  Polo is probably on every schools  
> list of things to add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again  
> and again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to  
> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget cycle.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
>
>   
>> I wonder what the 15 million red, white, and blue Americans  now  
>> playing futbol (soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
>>
>> bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >From MediaMatters:
>>
>> http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
>>
>>
>> As the World Cup starts, conservative media declare war on soccer
>>
>> As the 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media  
>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the tournament and  
>> the sport of soccer. They have also used soccer as a proxy to  
>> attack President Obama and progressives.
>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are the World Cup," soccer is "a  
>> poor man or poor woman's sport"
>>
>> Glenn Beck: "Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an  
>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck purported to  
>> explain how President Obama's policies "are the World Cup" of  
>> "political thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to  
>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you get, it  
>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it doesn't matter how many  
>> beer commercials they run, we don't want the World Cup, we don't  
>> like the World Cup, we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do  
>> with it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes  
>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
>>
>> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most  
>> likely to riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the  
>> baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,  
>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much, and they  
>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam it down our throat."
>>
>> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"  
>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10 program,  
>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened to American  
>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that "this game ... originated with  
>> the South American Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use  
>> the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>>
>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is designed as a poor man or poor woman's  
>> sport," "the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the  
>> country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research  
>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer is designed  
>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport" and that "the left is pushing  
>> it in schools across the country."  He added: "generally football  
>> games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later  
>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as necessary due to  
>> the "browning of America."
>>
>> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction  
>> from soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic  
>> senator's hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,  
>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to do is make fun  
>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to make fun of the World Cup  
>> because when you insult soccer you get the same reaction from  
>> soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic  
>> senator's hair, they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."  
>> Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the  
>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding this  
>> down our throats."
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 21:18:38 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:18:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Something else!
In-Reply-To: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>

Then instead of complaining, bring up a new topic for discussion.  =-O

Adam

Ed Davie wrote:
> Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
> Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
> Ed
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 14 22:33:36 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:33:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <041a01cb0c4c$4df2d9c0$e9d88d40$@com>

Adam,

> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> As for being a "poor man" sport there is validity
> to that point.  The amount of equipment needed to
> play soccer is very little. [...]

This isn't a very good argument though as it can be made for other sports
too.

Suggesting otherwise represents a fairly closed worldview when it comes to
sports.  I don't think you mean to, but that's how it seems.

> For baseball each person has to have a glove.  A
> bat is needed too, the rest is recommended (helmet,
> cleats, batting gloves, etc).

All you need is some sort of ball and a stick.  No bats or gloves required.

> Football requires much more equipment.

Nope, it requires a ball, nothing else.

> Hockey, fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin
> pads, body armor, pucks, ice, etc).

A ball and each person has a stick.  Again, no particular equipment beyond
that is necessary.

Even basketball doesn't require any elaborate equipment.  Heck, it started
out as a ball and a fruit crate with the bottom knocked out.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 00:09:35 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:09:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>

Unless they change the language, discipline still means discipline.

There was a forced issue, not a voluntary surrender.

And you can do without the references to lies. 

For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do not write the news. 
 
Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with, but multiple references
to lies is rude and completely unjustified.

If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president. He is an expert. But
then can I expect you to say he does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.

Don 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/14/10 12:06:22
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Yes, both turned in their licenses to avoid punishment. In her
> case it was a felony. She turned her's in to avoid a trial
> which would have publicized the facts.
>
> [...]
>
> So if anyone believes that a person would spend a quarter
> million dollars to earn a law degree from a highly respected
> school of law, would then give it up without a fight, or for
> some other compelling reason, there is a bridge for sale in
> Brooklyn...........cheap.
>
> Bottom line, both were constructively disbarred, and no
> longer members in good standing with the ABA.
 
Again, this is absolute nonsense.  This clearly shows just how poorly you
understand the legal system, how badly you want to taint either/both of
these individuals, and just how far you'll go to bend the truth or outright
lie to somehow make your point.  Further, the fact that you *refuse* to cite
any sources for your opinions calls your stated preference for documentation
to be nothing more than either a ruse or dishonest lip-service.
 
This is not your favorite source I realize, but it *does* state the elements
of the situation far more accurately and eloquently than you.
 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp
 
If the Obamas were disbarred, their record would look like this:
 
https://www.iardc.org/ldetail.asp?id=969488918
 
Note the status: "Not authorized to practice law due to discipline".
 
Also, note the disciplinary action.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 01:00:46 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:00:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <042c01cb0c60$de76c330$9b644990$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Unless they change the language, discipline still
> means discipline.

Yes, I'm sure it certainly still does.  And, seeing as how there isn't any
disciplinary action on their records, it's safe to say they weren't forced
to surrender their licenses.

> There was a forced issue, not a voluntary
> surrender.

Provide proof -- seriously.  There's *nothing* in their public record to
suggest it was anything but voluntary.

That leaves us with a logical conundrum.

I can't disprove what didn't happen.

You can't prove what didn't happen.

However, you speak like you know something you're not saying.  So, if it
*did* happen (as you suggest), you can most certainly provide proof.  Since
you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

The logical conundrum is solved one of two ways.

1) You distance yourself from your claim.

2) You provide links to things that document your
   claims and hope the evidence has sufficient merit.

I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen.  So, until then,
it's nothing more than a fairytale, a ruse, a charade, etc.

> And you can do without the references to lies.

I left a way out for you.  All you have to do is document your claims.

It's just like I tell my son.  Don't go into a conversation making bold
assertions you're not prepared to back up with evidence unless you're
prepared to be called a liar or a fool.

Honestly though, I think everyone (myself included) is rather tired of the
Obamaphobia and would rather you talked about something not related to
politics or climate change.  Perhaps you can stick to topics that you're
knowledgeable in, have loads of links to documentation, etc.

Genealogy?

Plants?

What else?

> For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do
> not write the news.

Nope, you sure don't.  You don't even link to it when cherry-picking bits
and pieces from it.

> Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with,
> but multiple references to lies is rude and completely
> unjustified.

Again, you have a way out of that.  I left (and continue to leave) the door
wide open.  Merely document your claims.  Without documentation the claims
are either lies or delusional ramblings.  I figured lies would be more
palatable.

> If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president.
> He is an expert. But then can I expect you to say he
> does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.

I'm done with the baseless claims and lack of cited sources for those
claims.

Are you done with the character assassination?

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 01:30:55 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:30:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Check out "STORM Revolution Handbook Shuts Down
 Glenn Beck's Servers" on The 9.12 Project Network
Message-ID: <4C173A3F.000008.00996@DON-B2514E06367>




STORM Handbook
June 10, 2010 - 14:23 ET
The radicals have infected the Democratic party. Just today, Van Jones was
speaking at the America's Future Now conference for progressives, energized
because ?this week will mark a historic inflection point when progressives
decided to be progressives again in this country." Jones used to be
affiliated with a group called STORM. That stands for Standing Together to
Organize a Revolutionary Movement. A group whose members included anarchists
and communists. This is why I've said that the president is in danger - he's
got revolutionaries all around him who believe in these tactics.
Download the STORM handbook (PDF File)
Thanks to Beaufort Observer for making this available
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jared Law
Date: 06/14/10 13:42:19
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: Check out "STORM Revolution Handbook Shuts Down Glenn Beck's
Servers" on The 9.12 Project Network
 
The 9.12 Project Network
Help us Restore America!
 
Jared LawCheck out the discussion 'STORM Revolution Handbook Shuts Down
Glenn Beck's Servers'
If you didn't see this last week, please download it & share it with
everyone you know, then share your thoughts with us! Every principled
patriot should know the contents of this handbook...


Discussion posted by Jared Law:

Today on Glenn Beck's program on Fox News Channel, he revealed that the
e-book he asked EVERYONE to download had such incredible demand tha...


Discussion link:
STORM Revolution Handbook Shuts Down Glenn Beck's Servers


About The 9.12 Project Network
This Network is dedicated to the 9 Principles/12 Values of The 9.12 Project,
and Defending the Constitution of the United States of America!
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 01:44:10 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:44:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>

Full former name(s). Answer none.

I thought his former name was Barry Soetero. That is the name he entered
Occidental College with.

Lie?

You bet.
 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 06/14/10 14:04:25
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
A full and detailed explanation of this particular vile canard is found at:
 
www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp
 
--Mike
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jeff Howden
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 1:17 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> I think I already said that.
>
> If the search engines cannot find further, why? Cover
> up? Records closed by Obama? What?
 
It could mean any number of things which would include:
 
  - Lack of search prowess on the part of the user
  - Lack of data that exists to support user's search criteria
 
Neither of these demand that a cover up took place.
 
More than likely, if the myriad Obamaphobic horde can't come up with the
data, the data simply doesn't exist and never, ever did.  Meanwhile, you go
on and on about this, without a thread to hang on to, making vague
generalizations about some mass conspiracy going on, never bothering to do
even the most rudimentary research and citing of sources for your claims.
 
> How convenient.
 
How convenient, indeed.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 06:17:49 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:17:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>


Don wrote:  Full former name(s). Answer none.  I thought his former name was Barry Soetero. That is the name he entered
Occidental College with.  Lie?  You bet.

Well, you could check this out.  Snopes identifies it as a hoax, an April Fool's joke that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the gullible.

Quoting Snopes:  "...this item isn't a news report at all--it's a hoax whose elements are demonstrably false."  Then it quotes from the "source's" website, the alleged "Americans for Freedom of Information":  "Read these tiny words very closely: the group Americans for Freedom of Information does not exist, just like the supposed 'AP article' you keep cutting and pasting into e-mails to your irritated family does not exist, just like the 'Daily mail article' referenced in the fake 'AP article' does not exist.  They're all fabrications.  Fakes.  Hoaxes.  Ask yourself why you're so eager to believe these obvious fakes.  No, really. Really, really ask yourself."

In another post, Don opines, "I do not write the news."

This is refreshing to know.  Unfortunately, he's not referencing news.  It would be very interesting to know his definition of news.  A hoaxer, see above, slaps "AP" on an April Fool's joke and that makes it "news"?

What we do see is a rather loose handling of language, a seeming inability to sort out the relative merits of various claims, a marked eagerness to latch on to critical and outlandish allegations about President Obama, and a certain conspiratorial world view, to identify just a few of the patterns we have been seeing on Grovenet.

--Mike



From jawelch at coho.net  Tue Jun 15 06:58:11 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:58:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





It seems to me
that one of the major drawbacks to soccer replacing (or matching) our
other major sports is that money drives popularity and that derives from
TV coverage and it is not a TV friendly sport.? Football, baseball,
basketball all have natural (or in some cases artificial) breaks in play
for commercials which fund TV.? That, and the fact that watching almost
100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same amount
of time spent watching paint dry.
John
> Let me play
devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)
> 
> If 15 million
Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million
>
aren't?
> 
> As for being a "poor man" sport
there is validity to that point.  The
> amount of equipment needed
to play soccer is very little.  One person
> needs to have a ball.
 That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put
> together
makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc)
> but
to play in the street nothing is needed.
> 
> For baseball
each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the
> rest
is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).
> 
>
Football requires much more equipment.
> 
> Hockey,
fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor,
>
pucks, ice, etc).
> 
> Soccer also has a tough uphill
battle for sports popularity.  Baseball
> is America's pastime. 
Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is
> the most
watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and
>
all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and
> riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't
easily
> compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and
doesn't have
> violence.  It will grow in popularity but will
never replace baseball or
> football in the hearts of America.
> 
> Adam
> 
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
>> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign
Policy and
>> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
>> By Robert Elias.
>>
>> I heard an
interesting review about how there were many attempts to
>> get
kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers
>> when they got old enough to enter the military...
>>
Among other things of course.
>>
>> But back to
soccer:
>> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the
article is that
>> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are
trying to 'push' it.
>> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately
funding our schools that surely
>> they could afford all the
expensive rich man's games instead of
>> cutting PE, music, and
art....  Polo is probably on every schools
>> list of things to
add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again
>> and
again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to
>> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget
cycle.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I wonder what the 15 million
red, white, and blue Americans  now
>>> playing futbol
(soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
>>>
>>>
bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
>>>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> >From
MediaMatters:
>>>
>>>
http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
>>>
>>>
>>> As the World Cup starts, conservative
media declare war on soccer
>>>
>>> As the
2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media
>>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the
tournament and
>>> the sport of soccer. They have also used
soccer as a proxy to
>>> attack President Obama and
progressives.
>>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are
the World Cup," soccer is "a
>>> poor man or poor
woman's sport"
>>>
>>> Glenn Beck:
"Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an
>>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck
purported to
>>> explain how President Obama's policies
"are the World Cup" of
>>> "political
thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to
>>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you
get, it
>>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it
doesn't matter how many
>>> beer commercials they run, we
don't want the World Cup, we don't
>>> like the World Cup,
we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do
>>> with
it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes
>>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
>>>
>>> Beck added "those who like the World
Cup ... they're the most
>>> likely to riot,"
commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the
>>>
baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,
>>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much,
and they
>>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam
it down our throat."
>>>
>>> G. Gordon
Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"
>>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10
program,
>>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened
to American
>>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that
"this game ... originated with
>>> the South American
Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use
>>> the
head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>>>
>>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is
designed as a poor man or poor woman's
>>> sport,"
"the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the
>>>
country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research
>>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer
is designed
>>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport"
and that "the left is pushing
>>> it in schools across
the country."  He added: "generally football
>>>
games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later
>>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as
necessary due to
>>> the "browning of America."
>>>
>>> Mark Belling: "When you insult
soccer you get the same reaction
>>> from soccer fans that
you get when you insult an aging Democratic
>>> senator's
hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,
>>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to
do is make fun
>>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to
make fun of the World Cup
>>> because when you insult soccer
you get the same reaction from
>>> soccer fans that you get
when you insult an aging Democratic
>>> senator's hair, they
go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
>>>
Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the
>>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding
this
>>> down our throats."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
_______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet
mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Jun 15 07:51:03 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:51:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I wonder what Pat Robertson makes of this . . . . .
Message-ID: <4C179357.3000907@jurislex.com>

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 08:08:30 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:08:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>

> In another post, Don opines, "I do not write the news."

No, but some folks DO write hoaxes and fake news; even more folks pass such 
things on.  They scour *anything* they can get their hands on for *anything* 
to use against our president, or anyone else for whom they have an 
aversion... There are no qualms with them about bearing false witness.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:17 AM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

>
> Don wrote:  Full former name(s). Answer none.  I thought his former name 
> was Barry Soetero. That is the name he entered
> Occidental College with.  Lie?  You bet.
>
> Well, you could check this out.  Snopes identifies it as a hoax, an April 
> Fool's joke that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the 
> gullible.
>
> Quoting Snopes:  "...this item isn't a news report at all--it's a hoax 
> whose elements are demonstrably false."  Then it quotes from the 
> "source's" website, the alleged "Americans for Freedom of Information": 
> "Read these tiny words very closely: the group Americans for Freedom of 
> Information does not exist, just like the supposed 'AP article' you keep 
> cutting and pasting into e-mails to your irritated family does not exist, 
> just like the 'Daily mail article' referenced in the fake 'AP article' 
> does not exist.  They're all fabrications.  Fakes.  Hoaxes.  Ask yourself 
> why you're so eager to believe these obvious fakes.  No, really. Really, 
> really ask yourself."
>
> In another post, Don opines, "I do not write the news."
>
> This is refreshing to know.  Unfortunately, he's not referencing news.  It 
> would be very interesting to know his definition of news.  A hoaxer, see 
> above, slaps "AP" on an April Fool's joke and that makes it "news"?
>
> What we do see is a rather loose handling of language, a seeming inability 
> to sort out the relative merits of various claims, a marked eagerness to 
> latch on to critical and outlandish allegations about President Obama, and 
> a certain conspiratorial world view, to identify just a few of the 
> patterns we have been seeing on Grovenet.
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 09:15:37 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:15:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
	<c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAC18@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I'm not a big soccer fan but I just finished teaching a Sport and Society class last semester and here's how the international TV folks think:  the World Cup will be televised world-wide for weeks.  I noticed that SONY had pretty much locked up the advertising space along the far side of the soccer pitch for the US-England game.  Each one of those spaces goes for a pretty hefty sum.  They figure that 40 billion viewers (this breaks down to 3 billion soccer fans watching 13 times or so) of those broadcasts will see those ads (and they can't be missed) in the weeks ahead.  The 150 million worldwide who watch the Super Bowl are a mere pittance to the 40 billion soccer figure.

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of jawelch at coho.net
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:58 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !





It seems to me
that one of the major drawbacks to soccer replacing (or matching) our
other major sports is that money drives popularity and that derives from
TV coverage and it is not a TV friendly sport.? Football, baseball,
basketball all have natural (or in some cases artificial) breaks in play
for commercials which fund TV.? That, and the fact that watching almost
100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same amount
of time spent watching paint dry.
John
> Let me play
devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)
> 
> If 15 million
Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million
>
aren't?
> 
> As for being a "poor man" sport
there is validity to that point.  The
> amount of equipment needed
to play soccer is very little.  One person
> needs to have a ball.
 That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put
> together
makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc)
> but
to play in the street nothing is needed.
> 
> For baseball
each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the
> rest
is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).
> 
>
Football requires much more equipment.
> 
> Hockey,
fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor,
>
pucks, ice, etc).
> 
> Soccer also has a tough uphill
battle for sports popularity.  Baseball
> is America's pastime. 
Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is
> the most
watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and
>
all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and
> riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't
easily
> compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and
doesn't have
> violence.  It will grow in popularity but will
never replace baseball or
> football in the hearts of America.
> 
> Adam
> 
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
>> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign
Policy and
>> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
>> By Robert Elias.
>>
>> I heard an
interesting review about how there were many attempts to
>> get
kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers
>> when they got old enough to enter the military...
>>
Among other things of course.
>>
>> But back to
soccer:
>> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the
article is that
>> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are
trying to 'push' it.
>> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately
funding our schools that surely
>> they could afford all the
expensive rich man's games instead of
>> cutting PE, music, and
art....  Polo is probably on every schools
>> list of things to
add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again
>> and
again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to
>> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget
cycle.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I wonder what the 15 million
red, white, and blue Americans  now
>>> playing futbol
(soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
>>>
>>>
bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
>>>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> >From
MediaMatters:
>>>
>>>
http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
>>>
>>>
>>> As the World Cup starts, conservative
media declare war on soccer
>>>
>>> As the
2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media
>>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the
tournament and
>>> the sport of soccer. They have also used
soccer as a proxy to
>>> attack President Obama and
progressives.
>>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are
the World Cup," soccer is "a
>>> poor man or poor
woman's sport"
>>>
>>> Glenn Beck:
"Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an
>>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck
purported to
>>> explain how President Obama's policies
"are the World Cup" of
>>> "political
thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to
>>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you
get, it
>>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it
doesn't matter how many
>>> beer commercials they run, we
don't want the World Cup, we don't
>>> like the World Cup,
we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do
>>> with
it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes
>>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
>>>
>>> Beck added "those who like the World
Cup ... they're the most
>>> likely to riot,"
commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the
>>>
baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,
>>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much,
and they
>>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam
it down our throat."
>>>
>>> G. Gordon
Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"
>>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10
program,
>>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened
to American
>>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that
"this game ... originated with
>>> the South American
Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use
>>> the
head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>>>
>>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is
designed as a poor man or poor woman's
>>> sport,"
"the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the
>>>
country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research
>>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer
is designed
>>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport"
and that "the left is pushing
>>> it in schools across
the country."  He added: "generally football
>>>
games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later
>>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as
necessary due to
>>> the "browning of America."
>>>
>>> Mark Belling: "When you insult
soccer you get the same reaction
>>> from soccer fans that
you get when you insult an aging Democratic
>>> senator's
hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,
>>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to
do is make fun
>>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to
make fun of the World Cup
>>> because when you insult soccer
you get the same reaction from
>>> soccer fans that you get
when you insult an aging Democratic
>>> senator's hair, they
go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
>>>
Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the
>>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding
this
>>> down our throats."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
_______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet
mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 09:27:50 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:27:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAC18@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>	<c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAC18@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01cb0ca7$b3154b20$193fe160$@net>

They actually have technology to place those ads in the video rather than
actually on the field. That way the US can see Sony while the Germans would
see Audi.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steele, Mike
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:16 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> I'm not a big soccer fan but I just finished teaching a Sport and
> Society class last semester and here's how the international TV folks
> think:  the World Cup will be televised world-wide for weeks.  I
> noticed that SONY had pretty much locked up the advertising space along
> the far side of the soccer pitch for the US-England game.  Each one of
> those spaces goes for a pretty hefty sum.  They figure that 40 billion
> viewers (this breaks down to 3 billion soccer fans watching 13 times or
> so) of those broadcasts will see those ads (and they can't be missed)
> in the weeks ahead.  The 150 million worldwide who watch the Super Bowl
> are a mere pittance to the 40 billion soccer figure.
> 
> --Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of jawelch at coho.net
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:58 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me
> that one of the major drawbacks to soccer replacing (or matching) our
> other major sports is that money drives popularity and that derives
> from
> TV coverage and it is not a TV friendly sport.? Football, baseball,
> basketball all have natural (or in some cases artificial) breaks in
> play
> for commercials which fund TV.? That, and the fact that watching almost
> 100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same
> amount
> of time spent watching paint dry.
> John
> > Let me play
> devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)
> >
> > If 15 million
> Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million
> >
> aren't?
> >
> > As for being a "poor man" sport
> there is validity to that point.  The
> > amount of equipment needed
> to play soccer is very little.  One person
> > needs to have a ball.
>  That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put
> > together
> makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc)
> > but
> to play in the street nothing is needed.
> >
> > For baseball
> each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the
> > rest
> is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).
> >
> >
> Football requires much more equipment.
> >
> > Hockey,
> fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor,
> >
> pucks, ice, etc).
> >
> > Soccer also has a tough uphill
> battle for sports popularity.  Baseball
> > is America's pastime.
> Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is
> > the most
> watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and
> >
> all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and
> > riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't
> easily
> > compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and
> doesn't have
> > violence.  It will grow in popularity but will
> never replace baseball or
> > football in the hearts of America.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Katie Allnutt wrote:
> >> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
> >> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign
> Policy and
> >> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
> >> By Robert Elias.
> >>
> >> I heard an
> interesting review about how there were many attempts to
> >> get
> kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers
> >> when they got old enough to enter the military...
> >>
> Among other things of course.
> >>
> >> But back to
> soccer:
> >> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the
> article is that
> >> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are
> trying to 'push' it.
> >> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately
> funding our schools that surely
> >> they could afford all the
> expensive rich man's games instead of
> >> cutting PE, music, and
> art....  Polo is probably on every schools
> >> list of things to
> add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again
> >> and
> again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to
> >> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget
> cycle.
> >>
> >> Katie
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I wonder what the 15 million
> red, white, and blue Americans  now
> >>> playing futbol
> (soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
> >>>
> >>>
> bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
> >>>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>> >From
> MediaMatters:
> >>>
> >>>
> http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As the World Cup starts, conservative
> media declare war on soccer
> >>>
> >>> As the
> 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media
> >>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the
> tournament and
> >>> the sport of soccer. They have also used
> soccer as a proxy to
> >>> attack President Obama and
> progressives.
> >>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are
> the World Cup," soccer is "a
> >>> poor man or poor
> woman's sport"
> >>>
> >>> Glenn Beck:
> "Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an
> >>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck
> purported to
> >>> explain how President Obama's policies
> "are the World Cup" of
> >>> "political
> thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to
> >>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you
> get, it
> >>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it
> doesn't matter how many
> >>> beer commercials they run, we
> don't want the World Cup, we don't
> >>> like the World Cup,
> we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do
> >>> with
> it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes
> >>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
> >>>
> >>> Beck added "those who like the World
> Cup ... they're the most
> >>> likely to riot,"
> commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the
> >>>
> baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,
> >>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much,
> and they
> >>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam
> it down our throat."
> >>>
> >>> G. Gordon
> Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"
> >>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10
> program,
> >>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened
> to American
> >>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that
> "this game ... originated with
> >>> the South American
> Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use
> >>> the
> head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
> >>>
> >>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is
> designed as a poor man or poor woman's
> >>> sport,"
> "the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the
> >>>
> country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research
> >>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer
> is designed
> >>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport"
> and that "the left is pushing
> >>> it in schools across
> the country."  He added: "generally football
> >>>
> games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later
> >>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as
> necessary due to
> >>> the "browning of America."
> >>>
> >>> Mark Belling: "When you insult
> soccer you get the same reaction
> >>> from soccer fans that
> you get when you insult an aging Democratic
> >>> senator's
> hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,
> >>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to
> do is make fun
> >>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to
> make fun of the World Cup
> >>> because when you insult soccer
> you get the same reaction from
> >>> soccer fans that you get
> when you insult an aging Democratic
> >>> senator's hair, they
> go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
> >>>
> Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the
> >>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding
> this
> >>> down our throats."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet
> mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet
> mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing
> list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 09:40:16 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:40:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <000f01cb0ca7$b3154b20$193fe160$@net>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>	<c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAC18@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<000f01cb0ca7$b3154b20$193fe160$@net>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BACBE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Very interesting....sort of like the first down line in the NFL that we see on TV that is not seen on the field?

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steven
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:28 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

They actually have technology to place those ads in the video rather than
actually on the field. That way the US can see Sony while the Germans would
see Audi.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steele, Mike
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:16 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> I'm not a big soccer fan but I just finished teaching a Sport and
> Society class last semester and here's how the international TV folks
> think:  the World Cup will be televised world-wide for weeks.  I
> noticed that SONY had pretty much locked up the advertising space along
> the far side of the soccer pitch for the US-England game.  Each one of
> those spaces goes for a pretty hefty sum.  They figure that 40 billion
> viewers (this breaks down to 3 billion soccer fans watching 13 times or
> so) of those broadcasts will see those ads (and they can't be missed)
> in the weeks ahead.  The 150 million worldwide who watch the Super Bowl
> are a mere pittance to the 40 billion soccer figure.
> 
> --Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of jawelch at coho.net
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:58 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me
> that one of the major drawbacks to soccer replacing (or matching) our
> other major sports is that money drives popularity and that derives
> from
> TV coverage and it is not a TV friendly sport.? Football, baseball,
> basketball all have natural (or in some cases artificial) breaks in
> play
> for commercials which fund TV.? That, and the fact that watching almost
> 100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same
> amount
> of time spent watching paint dry.
> John
> > Let me play
> devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)
> >
> > If 15 million
> Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million
> >
> aren't?
> >
> > As for being a "poor man" sport
> there is validity to that point.  The
> > amount of equipment needed
> to play soccer is very little.  One person
> > needs to have a ball.
>  That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put
> > together
> makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc)
> > but
> to play in the street nothing is needed.
> >
> > For baseball
> each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the
> > rest
> is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).
> >
> >
> Football requires much more equipment.
> >
> > Hockey,
> fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor,
> >
> pucks, ice, etc).
> >
> > Soccer also has a tough uphill
> battle for sports popularity.  Baseball
> > is America's pastime.
> Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is
> > the most
> watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and
> >
> all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and
> > riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't
> easily
> > compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and
> doesn't have
> > violence.  It will grow in popularity but will
> never replace baseball or
> > football in the hearts of America.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Katie Allnutt wrote:
> >> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
> >> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign
> Policy and
> >> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
> >> By Robert Elias.
> >>
> >> I heard an
> interesting review about how there were many attempts to
> >> get
> kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers
> >> when they got old enough to enter the military...
> >>
> Among other things of course.
> >>
> >> But back to
> soccer:
> >> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the
> article is that
> >> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are
> trying to 'push' it.
> >> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately
> funding our schools that surely
> >> they could afford all the
> expensive rich man's games instead of
> >> cutting PE, music, and
> art....  Polo is probably on every schools
> >> list of things to
> add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again
> >> and
> again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to
> >> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget
> cycle.
> >>
> >> Katie
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I wonder what the 15 million
> red, white, and blue Americans  now
> >>> playing futbol
> (soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
> >>>
> >>>
> bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
> >>>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>> >From
> MediaMatters:
> >>>
> >>>
> http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As the World Cup starts, conservative
> media declare war on soccer
> >>>
> >>> As the
> 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media
> >>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the
> tournament and
> >>> the sport of soccer. They have also used
> soccer as a proxy to
> >>> attack President Obama and
> progressives.
> >>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are
> the World Cup," soccer is "a
> >>> poor man or poor
> woman's sport"
> >>>
> >>> Glenn Beck:
> "Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an
> >>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck
> purported to
> >>> explain how President Obama's policies
> "are the World Cup" of
> >>> "political
> thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to
> >>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you
> get, it
> >>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it
> doesn't matter how many
> >>> beer commercials they run, we
> don't want the World Cup, we don't
> >>> like the World Cup,
> we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do
> >>> with
> it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes
> >>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
> >>>
> >>> Beck added "those who like the World
> Cup ... they're the most
> >>> likely to riot,"
> commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the
> >>>
> baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,
> >>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much,
> and they
> >>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam
> it down our throat."
> >>>
> >>> G. Gordon
> Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"
> >>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10
> program,
> >>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened
> to American
> >>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that
> "this game ... originated with
> >>> the South American
> Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use
> >>> the
> head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
> >>>
> >>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is
> designed as a poor man or poor woman's
> >>> sport,"
> "the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the
> >>>
> country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research
> >>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer
> is designed
> >>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport"
> and that "the left is pushing
> >>> it in schools across
> the country."  He added: "generally football
> >>>
> games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later
> >>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as
> necessary due to
> >>> the "browning of America."
> >>>
> >>> Mark Belling: "When you insult
> soccer you get the same reaction
> >>> from soccer fans that
> you get when you insult an aging Democratic
> >>> senator's
> hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,
> >>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to
> do is make fun
> >>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to
> make fun of the World Cup
> >>> because when you insult soccer
> you get the same reaction from
> >>> soccer fans that you get
> when you insult an aging Democratic
> >>> senator's hair, they
> go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
> >>>
> Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the
> >>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding
> this
> >>> down our throats."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> GroveNet
> mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet
> mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing
> list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 09:45:08 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:45:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BACBE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>	<c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAC18@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<000f01cb0ca7$b3154b20$193fe160$@net>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BACBE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <001001cb0caa$1d7ff5d0$587fe170$@net>

I can't say they used it in the World Cup, but the technology is there.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steele, Mike
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:40 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> Very interesting....sort of like the first down line in the NFL that we
> see on TV that is not seen on the field?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Steven
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:28 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> 
> They actually have technology to place those ads in the video rather
> than
> actually on the field. That way the US can see Sony while the Germans
> would
> see Audi.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]
> On
> > Behalf Of Steele, Mike
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:16 AM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> >
> > I'm not a big soccer fan but I just finished teaching a Sport and
> > Society class last semester and here's how the international TV folks
> > think:  the World Cup will be televised world-wide for weeks.  I
> > noticed that SONY had pretty much locked up the advertising space
> along
> > the far side of the soccer pitch for the US-England game.  Each one
> of
> > those spaces goes for a pretty hefty sum.  They figure that 40
> billion
> > viewers (this breaks down to 3 billion soccer fans watching 13 times
> or
> > so) of those broadcasts will see those ads (and they can't be missed)
> > in the weeks ahead.  The 150 million worldwide who watch the Super
> Bowl
> > are a mere pittance to the 40 billion soccer figure.
> >
> > --Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]
> On
> > Behalf Of jawelch at coho.net
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:58 AM
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems to me
> > that one of the major drawbacks to soccer replacing (or matching) our
> > other major sports is that money drives popularity and that derives
> > from
> > TV coverage and it is not a TV friendly sport.? Football, baseball,
> > basketball all have natural (or in some cases artificial) breaks in
> > play
> > for commercials which fund TV.? That, and the fact that watching
> almost
> > 100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same
> > amount
> > of time spent watching paint dry.
> > John
> > > Let me play
> > devil's advocate for a moment here  ;-)
> > >
> > > If 15 million
> > Americans are fans of soccer doesn't that mean 285 million
> > >
> > aren't?
> > >
> > > As for being a "poor man" sport
> > there is validity to that point.  The
> > > amount of equipment needed
> > to play soccer is very little.  One person
> > > needs to have a ball.
> >  That's it, not much more.  A goal can be put
> > > together
> > makeshift.  You can get equipment (cleats, shin guards, etc)
> > > but
> > to play in the street nothing is needed.
> > >
> > > For baseball
> > each person has to have a glove.  A bat is needed too, the
> > > rest
> > is recommended (helmet, cleats, batting gloves, etc).
> > >
> > >
> > Football requires much more equipment.
> > >
> > > Hockey,
> > fugetaboutit! (skates, stick, gloves, shin pads, body armor,
> > >
> > pucks, ice, etc).
> > >
> > > Soccer also has a tough uphill
> > battle for sports popularity.  Baseball
> > > is America's pastime.
> > Basketball is the most entertaining.  Football is
> > > the most
> > watched.  Hockey is sacred in a few patches of this country and
> > >
> > all of Canada.  To compete with the big four sports is difficult and
> > > riles some people up (as seen below) because soccer doesn't
> > easily
> > > compare with other sports.  It's a low scoring game and
> > doesn't have
> > > violence.  It will grow in popularity but will
> > never replace baseball or
> > > football in the hearts of America.
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > Katie Allnutt wrote:
> > >> You might like to check out a relatively new book called
> > >> "The Empire Strikes Out: How Baseball Sold U.S. Foreign
> > Policy and
> > >> Promoted the American Way Abroad"
> > >> By Robert Elias.
> > >>
> > >> I heard an
> > interesting review about how there were many attempts to
> > >> get
> > kids to join little league to make them better grenade throwers
> > >> when they got old enough to enter the military...
> > >>
> > Among other things of course.
> > >>
> > >> But back to
> > soccer:
> > >> I have to laugh when one of the criticisms in the
> > article is that
> > >> soccer is a poor man's game and schools are
> > trying to 'push' it.
> > >> Hmm, let's see...we are so adequately
> > funding our schools that surely
> > >> they could afford all the
> > expensive rich man's games instead of
> > >> cutting PE, music, and
> > art....  Polo is probably on every schools
> > >> list of things to
> > add next year as the budgets get re squeezed again
> > >> and
> > again.  Maybe the multi national corporate types would like to
> > >> push Polo as an acceptable school sport in the next budget
> > cycle.
> > >>
> > >> Katie
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Bob Browning wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> I wonder what the 15 million
> > red, white, and blue Americans  now
> > >>> playing futbol
> > (soccer) think about this stuff ? ? ?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > bob "pass the ball or pass the Bud" browning
> > >>>
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >>> >From
> > MediaMatters:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > http://mediamatters.org/research/201006110040
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> As the World Cup starts, conservative
> > media declare war on soccer
> > >>>
> > >>> As the
> > 2010 World Cup begins in South Africa, conservative media
> > >>> figures have seized the opportunity to attack the
> > tournament and
> > >>> the sport of soccer. They have also used
> > soccer as a proxy to
> > >>> attack President Obama and
> > progressives.
> > >>> Conservatives: "Obama's policies are
> > the World Cup," soccer is "a
> > >>> poor man or poor
> > woman's sport"
> > >>>
> > >>> Glenn Beck:
> > "Barack Obama's policies are the World Cup." In an
> > >>> extensive rant on the June 11 Glenn Beck Program, Beck
> > purported to
> > >>> explain how President Obama's policies
> > "are the World Cup" of
> > >>> "political
> > thought." Beck stated, "It doesn't matter how you try to
> > >>> sell it to us, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you
> > get, it
> > >>> doesn't matter how many bars open early, it
> > doesn't matter how many
> > >>> beer commercials they run, we
> > don't want the World Cup, we don't
> > >>> like the World Cup,
> > we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do
> > >>> with
> > it." Beck stated that likewise, "the rest of the world likes
> > >>> Barack Obama's policies, we do not."
> > >>>
> > >>> Beck added "those who like the World
> > Cup ... they're the most
> > >>> likely to riot,"
> > commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the
> > >>>
> > baseball riots." He later said of soccer, "I hate it so much,
> > >>> probably because the rest of the world likes it so much,
> > and they
> > >>> riot over it, and they continually try to jam
> > it down our throat."
> > >>>
> > >>> G. Gordon
> > Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?"
> > >>> Discussing soccer's popularity in the U.S. on his June 10
> > program,
> > >>> G. Gordon Liddy asked, "Whatever happened
> > to American
> > >>> exceptionalism?" Liddy noted that
> > "this game ... originated with
> > >>> the South American
> > Indians and instead of a ball, they used to use
> > >>> the
> > head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
> > >>>
> > >>> MRC's Dan Gainor: "Soccer is
> > designed as a poor man or poor woman's
> > >>> sport,"
> > "the left is pushing [soccer] in schools across the
> > >>>
> > country." Also on the June 10 G. Gordon Liddy Show, Media Research
> > >>> Center's Dan Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer
> > is designed
> > >>> as a poor man or poor woman's sport"
> > and that "the left is pushing
> > >>> it in schools across
> > the country."  He added: "generally football
> > >>>
> > games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later
> > >>> added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as
> > necessary due to
> > >>> the "browning of America."
> > >>>
> > >>> Mark Belling: "When you insult
> > soccer you get the same reaction
> > >>> from soccer fans that
> > you get when you insult an aging Democratic
> > >>> senator's
> > hair." On the June 11 edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show,
> > >>> guest host Mark Belling said, "What I really want to
> > do is make fun
> > >>> of the World Cup, but I'm not going to
> > make fun of the World Cup
> > >>> because when you insult soccer
> > you get the same reaction from
> > >>> soccer fans that you get
> > when you insult an aging Democratic
> > >>> senator's hair, they
> > go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
> > >>>
> > Later in the program, Belling said "I haven't talked about the
> > >>> World Cup, I haven't talked about how they're force-feeding
> > this
> > >>> down our throats."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >>> GroveNet
> > mailing list
> > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > >>>
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >> GroveNet
> > mailing list
> > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > >>
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing
> > list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > >
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 09:55:53 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:55:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <003a01cb0cab$9edd3830$dc97a890$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Full former name(s). Answer none.
> 
> I thought his former name was Barry Soetero. That
> is the name he entered Occidental College with.

No, he didn't enter Occidental College with the name Barry Seotero (sic).
He entered with the name Barack Obama, was initially known by his nickname
"Barry", but chose to go by Barack shortly after.

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/03/22/when-barry-became-barack.html

Any "evidence" he attended under the surname of Soetoro is garbage.  The
only possible "evidence" there is would be a fake AP article that was
emailed around as an April Fools' joke.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizenship_questioned_
2.htm

And then there's the recollection of things from Occidental's point of view.

http://www.oxy.edu/x8270.xml

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 10:03:56 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:03:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<7DA2B0B6-4A48-4AA9-8A92-FF5BAFA7C7F8@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C17B279.000006.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

My great grandmother Williamson told me that in Shelby County, Iowa she
played lacrosse with Indian kids, and that the kids said their grandfathers
learned lacrosse from the French.

Expense wise it seems high school football would be the most expensive sport
to fund. I think soccer and baseball might cost less than football to
support.

Don  
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/14/2010 6:21:00 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
 
Katie,
 
Spot on.  Fund our schools so that our children can have the "rich"
activities they deserve, instead of the "poor" activities the budget can
afford.
As you say, instead of soccer they should have polo.
Instead of choral groups, they should learn opera.
Instead of jazz horns, they should have proper violins and cellos.
Instead of chalk boards they should have video magnetrons.
Instead of soccer they should have lacrosse.  -- oops, wait, hold that,
lacrosse was invented by Americans and played before the Europeans came here

 
I have watched riot or two in American cities that won a pennant or sports
title.  They weren't soccer related either.
 
Football games don't devolve into riots or wars.  Maybe not, but when Saddam
insulted President G.W. Bush's father, he blew it out of proportion, and we
are still fighting there.
 
David
 
 
 
On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
 
> ... Polo is probably on every schools list of things to add next year as
the budgets get re squeezed again and again.  ...
> Katie
 
>> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most likely to
riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the baseball riots."
>>
>> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?" ... 
this game ... originated with the South American Indians and instead of a
ball, they used to use the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."
>>
>> MRC's Dan Gainor:  "generally football games in this country don't
devolve into riots or wars."
>>
>> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction from
soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic senator's hair.
 ... they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 10:09:47 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:09:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <4C17B279.000006.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<7DA2B0B6-4A48-4AA9-8A92-FF5BAFA7C7F8@verizon.net>
	<4C17B279.000006.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAD8B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

In another life, I wrote a series of books on Notre Dame football.  I came to know a certain ND coach fairly well--Jerry Faust, head coach from 1981 to 1985.  In those days, they would buy the required number of pads, say 125 of them, but then strip them out of their plastic padding and insert Kevlar pads...to the tune of $1500 per set.  This is mid-80's $$$.  There's nothing even close to that figure in other sports...not to mention travel for 60-80 players versus 25 for baseball or 15 for basketball. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:04 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

My great grandmother Williamson told me that in Shelby County, Iowa she
played lacrosse with Indian kids, and that the kids said their grandfathers
learned lacrosse from the French.



Expense wise it seems high school football would be the most expensive sport
to fund. I think soccer and baseball might cost less than football to
support.



Don  

 

 

 

 

-------Original Message-------

 

From: David Morelli

Date: 6/14/2010 6:21:00 PM

To: Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

 

Katie,

 

Spot on.  Fund our schools so that our children can have the "rich"
activities they deserve, instead of the "poor" activities the budget can
afford.

As you say, instead of soccer they should have polo.

Instead of choral groups, they should learn opera.

Instead of jazz horns, they should have proper violins and cellos.

Instead of chalk boards they should have video magnetrons.

Instead of soccer they should have lacrosse.  -- oops, wait, hold that,
lacrosse was invented by Americans and played before the Europeans came here


 

I have watched riot or two in American cities that won a pennant or sports
title.  They weren't soccer related either.

 

Football games don't devolve into riots or wars.  Maybe not, but when Saddam
insulted President G.W. Bush's father, he blew it out of proportion, and we
are still fighting there.

 

David

 

 

 

On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

 

> ... Polo is probably on every schools list of things to add next year as
the budgets get re squeezed again and again.  ...

> Katie

 

>> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most likely to
riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the baseball riots."

>>

>> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?" ... 
this game ... originated with the South American Indians and instead of a
ball, they used to use the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."

>>

>> MRC's Dan Gainor:  "generally football games in this country don't
devolve into riots or wars."

>>

>> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction from
soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic senator's hair.
 ... they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."

 

 

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 10:14:46 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:14:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Here is a new headline to discuss:

Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda. 
It is a headline. I did not make it up.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Adam Mayer
Date: 6/14/2010 9:18:49 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Something else!
 
Then instead of complaining, bring up a new topic for discussion.  =-O
 
Adam
 
Ed Davie wrote:
> Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
> Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
> Ed
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 10:23:34 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:23:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<042c01cb0c60$de76c330$9b644990$@com>
Message-ID: <4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

And if the public records are sealed, or cannot be found, under DOC that
automatically makes it untrue?

OK, I give up. The world is flat.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/15/2010 1:00:57 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Unless they change the language, discipline still
> means discipline.
 
Yes, I'm sure it certainly still does.  And, seeing as how there isn't any
disciplinary action on their records, it's safe to say they weren't forced
to surrender their licenses.
 
> There was a forced issue, not a voluntary
> surrender.
 
Provide proof -- seriously.  There's *nothing* in their public record to
suggest it was anything but voluntary.
 
That leaves us with a logical conundrum.
 
I can't disprove what didn't happen.
 
You can't prove what didn't happen.
 
However, you speak like you know something you're not saying.  So, if it
*did* happen (as you suggest), you can most certainly provide proof.  Since
you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.
 
The logical conundrum is solved one of two ways.
 
1) You distance yourself from your claim.
 
2) You provide links to things that document your
   claims and hope the evidence has sufficient merit.
 
I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen.  So, until then,
it's nothing more than a fairytale, a ruse, a charade, etc.
 
> And you can do without the references to lies.
 
I left a way out for you.  All you have to do is document your claims.
 
It's just like I tell my son.  Don't go into a conversation making bold
assertions you're not prepared to back up with evidence unless you're
prepared to be called a liar or a fool.
 
Honestly though, I think everyone (myself included) is rather tired of the
Obamaphobia and would rather you talked about something not related to
politics or climate change.  Perhaps you can stick to topics that you're
knowledgeable in, have loads of links to documentation, etc.
 
Genealogy?
 
Plants?
 
What else?
 
> For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do
> not write the news.
 
Nope, you sure don't.  You don't even link to it when cherry-picking bits
and pieces from it.
 
> Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with,
> but multiple references to lies is rude and completely
> unjustified.
 
Again, you have a way out of that.  I left (and continue to leave) the door
wide open.  Merely document your claims.  Without documentation the claims
are either lies or delusional ramblings.  I figured lies would be more
palatable.
 
> If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president.
> He is an expert. But then can I expect you to say he
> does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.
 
I'm done with the baseless claims and lack of cited sources for those
claims.
 
Are you done with the character assassination?
 
Jeff
 
 
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GroveNet mailing list
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 10:24:07 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:24:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAD8B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<7DA2B0B6-4A48-4AA9-8A92-FF5BAFA7C7F8@verizon.net>	<4C17B279.000006.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAD8B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAE15@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Oooops...Gerry Faust, not Jerry.  May the good fathers and sisters at ND forgive me.  Mea maxima culpa.

--Mike 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Mike
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:10 AM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

In another life, I wrote a series of books on Notre Dame football.  I came to know a certain ND coach fairly well--Jerry Faust, head coach from 1981 to 1985.  In those days, they would buy the required number of pads, say 125 of them, but then strip them out of their plastic padding and insert Kevlar pads...to the tune of $1500 per set.  This is mid-80's $$$.  There's nothing even close to that figure in other sports...not to mention travel for 60-80 players versus 25 for baseball or 15 for basketball. 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:04 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

My great grandmother Williamson told me that in Shelby County, Iowa she
played lacrosse with Indian kids, and that the kids said their grandfathers
learned lacrosse from the French.



Expense wise it seems high school football would be the most expensive sport
to fund. I think soccer and baseball might cost less than football to
support.



Don  

 

 

 

 

-------Original Message-------

 

From: David Morelli

Date: 6/14/2010 6:21:00 PM

To: Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !

 

Katie,

 

Spot on.  Fund our schools so that our children can have the "rich"
activities they deserve, instead of the "poor" activities the budget can
afford.

As you say, instead of soccer they should have polo.

Instead of choral groups, they should learn opera.

Instead of jazz horns, they should have proper violins and cellos.

Instead of chalk boards they should have video magnetrons.

Instead of soccer they should have lacrosse.  -- oops, wait, hold that,
lacrosse was invented by Americans and played before the Europeans came here


 

I have watched riot or two in American cities that won a pennant or sports
title.  They weren't soccer related either.

 

Football games don't devolve into riots or wars.  Maybe not, but when Saddam
insulted President G.W. Bush's father, he blew it out of proportion, and we
are still fighting there.

 

David

 

 

 

On Jun 14, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

 

> ... Polo is probably on every schools list of things to add next year as
the budgets get re squeezed again and again.  ...

> Katie

 

>> Beck added "those who like the World Cup ... they're the most likely to
riot," commenting that by contrast, "I haven't seen the baseball riots."

>>

>> G. Gordon Liddy: "Whatever happened to American exceptionalism?" ... 
this game ... originated with the South American Indians and instead of a
ball, they used to use the head, the decapitated head, of an enemy warrior."

>>

>> MRC's Dan Gainor:  "generally football games in this country don't
devolve into riots or wars."

>>

>> Mark Belling: "When you insult soccer you get the same reaction from
soccer fans that you get when you insult an aging Democratic senator's hair.
 ... they go nuts and blow it up all out of proportion."

 

 

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
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GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 10:26:19 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:26:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<042c01cb0c60$de76c330$9b644990$@com>
	<4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAE33@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Apparently someone did not read the full Snopes report on this matter.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:24 AM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

And if the public records are sealed, or cannot be found, under DOC that
automatically makes it untrue?



OK, I give up. The world is flat.



Don 

 

 

 

 

-------Original Message-------

 

From: Jeff Howden

Date: 6/15/2010 1:00:57 AM

To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

 

Don,

 

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]

>

> Unless they change the language, discipline still

> means discipline.

 

Yes, I'm sure it certainly still does.  And, seeing as how there isn't any

disciplinary action on their records, it's safe to say they weren't forced

to surrender their licenses.

 

> There was a forced issue, not a voluntary

> surrender.

 

Provide proof -- seriously.  There's *nothing* in their public record to

suggest it was anything but voluntary.

 

That leaves us with a logical conundrum.

 

I can't disprove what didn't happen.

 

You can't prove what didn't happen.

 

However, you speak like you know something you're not saying.  So, if it

*did* happen (as you suggest), you can most certainly provide proof.  Since

you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

 

The logical conundrum is solved one of two ways.

 

1) You distance yourself from your claim.

 

2) You provide links to things that document your

   claims and hope the evidence has sufficient merit.

 

I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen.  So, until then,

it's nothing more than a fairytale, a ruse, a charade, etc.

 

> And you can do without the references to lies.

 

I left a way out for you.  All you have to do is document your claims.

 

It's just like I tell my son.  Don't go into a conversation making bold

assertions you're not prepared to back up with evidence unless you're

prepared to be called a liar or a fool.

 

Honestly though, I think everyone (myself included) is rather tired of the

Obamaphobia and would rather you talked about something not related to

politics or climate change.  Perhaps you can stick to topics that you're

knowledgeable in, have loads of links to documentation, etc.

 

Genealogy?

 

Plants?

 

What else?

 

> For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do

> not write the news.

 

Nope, you sure don't.  You don't even link to it when cherry-picking bits

and pieces from it.

 

> Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with,

> but multiple references to lies is rude and completely

> unjustified.

 

Again, you have a way out of that.  I left (and continue to leave) the door

wide open.  Merely document your claims.  Without documentation the claims

are either lies or delusional ramblings.  I figured lies would be more

palatable.

 

> If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president.

> He is an expert. But then can I expect you to say he

> does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.

 

I'm done with the baseless claims and lack of cited sources for those

claims.

 

Are you done with the character assassination?

 

Jeff

 

 

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 10:30:24 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:30:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FW: The Right-Wing War Against Soccer
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAE53@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

For our little soccer discussion, see below.  (I'll send the address line later if this doesn't go through).

--Mike

________________________________
From: The Progress Report [mailto:progress at americanprogressaction.org]
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:45 AM
To: Steele, Mike
Subject: The Right-Wing War Against Soccer

Click here for the mobile edition<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55004&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | Problems viewing this email? Click here for the online edition<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=7787&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>
[http://pr.thinkprogress.org/img/prbanner.jpg]


June 15, 2010


by Faiz Shakir, Amanda Terkel, Matt Corley, Benjamin Armbruster, Zaid Jilani, Alex Seitz-Wald, Tanya Somanader, and Max Bergmann

Contact Us<mailto:pr at thinkprogress.org> | Tell-a-Friend<mailto:?subject=The%20Progress%20Report&body=Read%20Today's%20Progress%20Report%20at:%20http://pr.thinkprogress.org/> | Archives<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=7788&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | Permalink<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=7707&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | Subscribe to Feed<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=7789&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>



SPORTS
The Right-Wing War Against Soccer

On Friday, the world's biggest sporting event<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55005&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, the World Cup, kicked off in South Africa. The United States, long unfamiliar with the sport<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55006&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, has over the last two decades increasingly taken to the game and is now widely considered a rising power<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55007&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. Yet as soccer has grabbed the spotlight, it has also attracted the scorn of nativists on the right, who see the growing attention being paid to it as a byproduct of some conspiratorial leftist plot<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55008&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> or the result of insidious foreign influences. Fox News host Glenn Beck ranted, "I hate it so much<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55008&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, probably because the rest of the world likes it so much." Whether one is a fan of the world's game or not, the notion that soccer's growth is part of some plot is reflective of a conspiratorial nativism all too prevalent among the right wing. Soccer is a growing sport in the United States, across all demographic groups, and as a result, the U.S. national team, as seen by its draw in its first World Cup game<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55009&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> against England on Saturday, has rapidly improved and is now capable of competing with the world's best. This has led to unprecedented excitement in the United States and an extraordinary level of exposure for the game<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55010&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. Instead of something threatening<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55011&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, this is a demonstration of the ever evolving nature of American society and our global interconnectedness.

CONSERVATIVE CONSPIRACY: The growth of soccer in the U.S. and the notable expansion of attention and enthusiasm surrounding this World Cup has given rise to numerous conservative conspiracy theories. Matthew Philbin on the conservative site NewsBusters asserted, "The liberal media<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55012&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> have always been uncomfortable with 'American exceptionalism' -- the belief that the United States is unique among nations, a leader and a force for good. And they are no happier with America's rejection of soccer than with its rejection of socialism." Media Research Center's Dan Gainor asserted that "the left is pushing it in schools across the country<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55008&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>." Guest host Mark Belling on the Rush Limbaugh Show added, "They're force-feeding this down our throats<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55008&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>." Beck blustered, "It doesn't matter how you try to sell it to us<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55008&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, it doesn't matter how many celebrities you get, it doesn't matter how many bars open early, it doesn't matter how many beer commercials they run, we don't want the World Cup, we don't like the World Cup, we don't like soccer, we want nothing to do with it. ... They continually try to jam it down our throat." By this logic, one of the major leftist socialists who is pushing soccer is Beck's employer, Rupert Murdoch, whose Fox Soccer Channel<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55013&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> and Fox Soccer Plus<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55014&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> show more soccer than any other networks. Furthermore, ESPN, which is broadcasting the World Cup, is devoting previously unseen amount of resources<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55015&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> to their coverage for an American network. These networks, and big corporations like Budweiser and Coca-Cola<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55016&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, are not investing in soccer because of some leftist motivations, but because doing so is increasingly lucrative.

MORE CONSERVATIVE CANARDS: Another right-wing claim is that soccer can  be liked by socialists<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55012&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> only. Neoconservative Gary Schmitt wrote<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55017&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, "My suspicion is that the so-called 'beautiful game' is not so beautiful to American sensibilities...in sports, that means excellence should prevail. Of course, the fact that is often not the case when it comes to soccer may be precisely the reason the sport is so popular in the countries of Latin America and Europe." The notion that excellence doesn't prevail in soccer is absurd<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55018&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, as demonstrated by Brazil's continued dominance and the fact that only seven countries have won the World Cup. Gainor said, "the problem here is, soccer is designed as a poor man or poor woman's sport<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55019&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>," adding the sport "is being sold" as necessary due to the "browning of America." Claims that soccer is a "foreign" ignores the fact that the game has become a major part of the American cultural landscape. Soccer has now for decades been a mainstay of the suburban middle class. It was so thoroughly embraced that conservative political consultant Alex Castellanos coined the term "soccer moms<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55020&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>" to describe the swing voting group of middle class suburban white mothers who spent countless hours in minivans driving their children to and from soccer practice. As conservative Stephen H. Webb lamented, "Conservative suburban families<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55021&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, the backbone of America, have turned to soccer in droves." Conservatives seem immensely uncomfortable with the growing diversity of soccer in the U.S.<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55022&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, represented by the fact that so many women and Latin American immigrants have brought that tradition here from their home countries and have helped expand the growth of the sport in the U.S. The American men's national team currently playing in South Africa closely resembles the ethnic melting pot of the country it represents. Perhaps, that is why so many on the right have a hard time rooting for them.

THE UNITED STATES IS EMBRACING SOCCER: In the U.S. today, more kids under 12 play soccer than baseball, basketball, and football combined. According to FIFA, the United States has 18 million registered soccer players<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55023&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, more than any other country in the world. American youth have been playing soccer in the millions since the 1980s, and as this initial soccer-playing generation enters their 20s and 30s<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55010&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, there is a growing market in the U.S. that is interested in soccer. Furthermore, the increasing interconnectedness brought about by globalization has removed barriers to follow the sport<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55007&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, with access to soccer expanding with the growth of cable and satellite channels and the internet. As a result, each successive World Cup has attracted more attention in the States. The U.S.-England match drew 17 million viewers -- more than the current NBA finals<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55024&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. The U.S. professional league, Major League Soccer, has recently expanded into new cities despite the recession<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55025&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> and has seen league-wide attendance grow to more than 16,000 on average<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55026&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> -- quite strong for a league only 14 years old. Soccer is also immensely popular amongst women, and the U.S. women's national team<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55027&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> is one of the top teams in the world. The U.S. men's team has also made immense strides in the last two decades<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55007&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> after not even qualifying for the World Cup between 1950 and 1990. In 2002, the U.S. reached the quarterfinals<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55028&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. Last year, they beat the world's top ranked team, Spain, and narrowly lost to Brazil in the finals of the Confederations Cup<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55029&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. The U.S. also finished first in its World Cup qualifying group for the second time, coming in above Mexico<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55030&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>.

[http://pr.thinkprogress.org/img/head-UTRlight.gif]

BUSINESS -- BP CALL CENTERS ARE JUST A 'DIVERSION': Having caused the greatest environmental disaster in American history, BP is now scrambling to defend its public image by running expensive TV ads<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=54542&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, buying space on Google search results<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55031&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, and hiring former Bush<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=54484&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> and Cheney<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=53688&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> aides as public relations officials. While BP has boasted<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55032&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> of its call centers<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55033&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> in an attempt to demonstrate that it's responsibly taking care of the oil spill and listening to public complaints, this effort's credibility is now seriously questioned<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55034&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. One of BP's contracted phone operators just came forward to KHOU in Houston, revealing how she and the other 100 operators at her site are merely PR props<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55035&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>. Although they are supposed to be collecting and passing along ideas for clean-up and requests for spill-related aid, she says BP is not interested in doing anything with the information the operators receive. "We take all your information and then we have nothing to give them, nothing to give them," she says. The calls are "non-stop<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55034&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>," but the contracted operators are just "a diversion to stop [calls] from really getting to the corporate office, to the big people." Some operators "don't bother" taking notes during their calls. The anonymous tipster laments how "it's so frustrating when these people live right there and nothing is being done to help them." BP officials acknowledge that this call center has received over 200,000 phone messages, yet they "can't say just what percentage of calls is returned." The Center for American Progress' (CAP) Senior Fellow Tom Kenworthy and the Wonk Room's Brad Johnson have argued in a recent report that<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=53075&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> "[f]ederal agencies, not BP, should handle spill response hotlines for volunteers, technology ideas, affected wildlife, and others. Full call records need to be logged with incident reports and technology ideas presented publicly on dynamic websites."


[http://pr.thinkprogress.org/img/head-thinkfast.gif]



In a new USA Today/Gallup poll, 71 percent of Americans say that President Obama "has not been tough enough in his dealings with BP." Fifty-nine percent say that BP "should pay for all financial losses resulting from the Gulf Coast oil spill<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55036&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, including wages of workers put out of work, even if those payments ultimately drive the company out of business."

During a visit to Mississippi and Alabama yesterday, Obama said<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55037&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." He also urged tourists to visit the Gulf, pointing to "a lot of beaches that are not yet affected<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55038&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> or will not be affected." Today, he visits the Pensacola Beach area<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55039&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> in the Florida panhandle.

Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) and Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) "will force top oil executives to defend or condemn industry practices and profits" in hearings on Capitol Hill today. "I'm not sure the industry has grasped how much this is going to hurt them<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55040&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> in the long run," one energy lobbyist told Politico. "They're still seeing this as a BP problem. That's not a good place for them to be."

Following a CAP<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=53075&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> recommendation<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=53218&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said the administration plans to use its legal authority to ensure BP pays its claims. "The president has the legal authority to compel them<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55041&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> to do so and if they don't, he will," Gibbs said.

President Obama and congressional Democrats are planning "a major new push for a broad global warming bill, fueled in part by public outrage over the BP disaster." In a briefing to top officials in Congress, Democratic pollster Joel Benenson argues that BP's oil spill "is intensifying the public's desire for clean energy investments and increased regulation on corporate polluters<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55042&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>."

U.S. CentCom chief Gen. David Petraeus will appear at congressional committee hearings today and tomorrow to field questions about the Afghan war amidst growing unease with the conflict. "I think we are all concerned<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=54941&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>," said Rep. Susan Davis (D-CA).

The Supreme Court unanimously ruled<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55043&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> yesterday that legal immigrants "convicted of minor drug offenses should not face automatic deportation," which will allow thousands to argue for leniency from immigration judges. In his opinion<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55044&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, Justice John Paul Stevens argued that such cases were not "what Congress had in mind when it mandated automatic deportation<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=54990&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> for any immigrant convicted of an aggravated felony."

Sharron Angle, GOP candidate for U.S. Senate in Nevada, suggested to a local NPR affiliate last month that the Department of Veterans Affairs should be privatized. When asked if the VA should cover prescription drugs costs, Angle said, "No, not if you're working towards a privatized system<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55045&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>."

Florida governor and U.S. Senate candidate Charlie Crist (I) has shifted his position on U.S.-Cuba relations, now favoring policies that allow Cuban Americans to travel more freely to the island nation. "Crist seems open to listening to different points of view since he's moved toward the middle<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55046&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>," said Maria Aral, of ABC Charters<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55047&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>, a company that charters trips to Cuba.

And finally: The 2010 World Cup, brick by brick<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55048&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>.






[http://www.americanprogress.org/images/progressreport/signup-link-light.gif]<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=9358&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>

[http://www.americanprogress.org/images/progressreport/tp-link-light.gif]<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=122&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>

[http://www.americanprogress.org/images/progressreport/right-features1light.gif]
[http://www.americanprogress.org/images/progressreport/right-features2light.gif]
[http://www.americanprogress.org/images/progressreport/right-features3light.gif]


[http://pr.thinkprogress.org/img/head-blogwatch.gif]

The bridge battle<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55049&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> on the Detroit river.

Class status, labor laws, and nannies: Experiences in subtle racism<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55050&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>.

The missing voices<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55051&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> on climate change.

De-oiled birds -- good for BP, bad for birds<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55052&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>.

If Rep. Steve King (R-IA) were a White House reporter, he'd be forced to resign<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55053&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>.

Foreclosures in Phoenix may jump<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55054&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> because of Arizona's harsh new anti-immigration law.

Why the defense budget should be the first target<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55055&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> of deficit cutters.

Van Jones on Obama's "megaphone moment<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55056&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>": "People want to be called to service."

[http://pr.thinkprogress.org/img/head-dailygrill.gif]

"Asked to define what he does, [Fox News' Glenn Beck] says, 'I'm a little of everything.' That includes 'concerned dad,' 'faith-based guy,' 'businessman,' 'entertainer' and, after a long pause, 'journalist.' 'I don't have formal training as a journalist, but I think that works to my advantage.'"
-- USA Today, 6/14/10<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=55057&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>

VERSUS

"I want you to understand clearly, I am not a journalist -- be very clear on that. I am an opinion-maker."
-- Beck, 3/23/09<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=54982&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>




thinkprogress.org<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=4843&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | contact us<mailto:pr at thinkprogress.org> | donate<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=17926&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | unsubscribe<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=8166&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032> | archives<http://app.mx3.americanprogressaction.org/e/er.aspx?s=785&lid=7788&elq=1acadc0952ca4834a26380f1dcb1b032>





From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 10:34:07 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:34:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda.
> 
> It is a headline. I did not make it up.

Yup, and it's nonsense from the Republican Noise Machine.

http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/right-wing-war-on-aarp

Jeff



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 15 10:45:41 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:45:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <744C6BD1-FC33-4F12-AD1E-0C6037364E49@teleport.com>

Don:
The operative word is "new" subject. "New," as in "not old,  
hackneyed, beaten to death, debunked, defunct, and sunk into utter  
desuetude."
In short, please, no more re-hashing of stale Obama-bashing.
I've seen the article you posit. Because you sent it around before.  
And it's just some schmuck's private opinion or fantasy or outright  
lie masquerading as "news."
And I'm just going to start erasing entire threads unread unless we  
get something REAL to talk about. It makes me feel embarrassed and  
ashamed of myself afterward when I get roped into this rubbish and  
get angry about it.
WW

On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:14 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Here is a new headline to discuss:
>
> Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda.
> It is a headline. I did not make it up.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Adam Mayer
> Date: 6/14/2010 9:18:49 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Something else!
>
> Then instead of complaining, bring up a new topic for discussion.  =-O
>
> Adam
>
> Ed Davie wrote:
>> Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
>> Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
>> Ed
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_monkey_en_020908.gif>________________________ 
> _______________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 10:48:26 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:48:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <744C6BD1-FC33-4F12-AD1E-0C6037364E49@teleport.com>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<744C6BD1-FC33-4F12-AD1E-0C6037364E49@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAED7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Well, Walt, don't beat yourself up too much.  There's a choice--let the swill sit there and do its damage...or point out that it's swill.

I think it was Mark Twain who said that no one ever got rich by overestimating the American public.

Should we have total faith that the swill will (nice echo there) disappear unwilled (had to get that in)?

--Mike 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:46 AM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject

Don:
The operative word is "new" subject. "New," as in "not old,  
hackneyed, beaten to death, debunked, defunct, and sunk into utter  
desuetude."
In short, please, no more re-hashing of stale Obama-bashing.
I've seen the article you posit. Because you sent it around before.  
And it's just some schmuck's private opinion or fantasy or outright  
lie masquerading as "news."
And I'm just going to start erasing entire threads unread unless we  
get something REAL to talk about. It makes me feel embarrassed and  
ashamed of myself afterward when I get roped into this rubbish and  
get angry about it.
WW

On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:14 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Here is a new headline to discuss:
>
> Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda.
> It is a headline. I did not make it up.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Adam Mayer
> Date: 6/14/2010 9:18:49 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Something else!
>
> Then instead of complaining, bring up a new topic for discussion.  =-O
>
> Adam
>
> Ed Davie wrote:
>> Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
>> Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
>> Ed
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_monkey_en_020908.gif>________________________ 
> _______________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 10:56:17 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:56:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<042c01cb0c60$de76c330$9b644990$@com>
	<4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <F5A0DD4E-A145-4701-BB48-1E80E7F81426@verizon.net>

And I was under the assumption that a slightly oblate spheroid was  
the best approximation of the world.

Oh, Glen Beck says the world is flat. Okay. Now I get it.

Katie


On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:23 AM, donkelly wrote:

> And if the public records are sealed, or cannot be found, under DOC  
> that
> automatically makes it untrue?
>
>
>
> OK, I give up. The world is flat.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Jeff Howden
>
> Date: 6/15/2010 1:00:57 AM
>
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
>
>
>
> Don,
>
>
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
>>
>
>> Unless they change the language, discipline still
>
>> means discipline.
>
>
>
> Yes, I'm sure it certainly still does.  And, seeing as how there  
> isn't any
>
> disciplinary action on their records, it's safe to say they weren't  
> forced
>
> to surrender their licenses.
>
>
>
>> There was a forced issue, not a voluntary
>
>> surrender.
>
>
>
> Provide proof -- seriously.  There's *nothing* in their public  
> record to
>
> suggest it was anything but voluntary.
>
>
>
> That leaves us with a logical conundrum.
>
>
>
> I can't disprove what didn't happen.
>
>
>
> You can't prove what didn't happen.
>
>
>
> However, you speak like you know something you're not saying.  So,  
> if it
>
> *did* happen (as you suggest), you can most certainly provide  
> proof.  Since
>
> you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.
>
>
>
> The logical conundrum is solved one of two ways.
>
>
>
> 1) You distance yourself from your claim.
>
>
>
> 2) You provide links to things that document your
>
>    claims and hope the evidence has sufficient merit.
>
>
>
> I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen.  So, until  
> then,
>
> it's nothing more than a fairytale, a ruse, a charade, etc.
>
>
>
>> And you can do without the references to lies.
>
>
>
> I left a way out for you.  All you have to do is document your claims.
>
>
>
> It's just like I tell my son.  Don't go into a conversation making  
> bold
>
> assertions you're not prepared to back up with evidence unless you're
>
> prepared to be called a liar or a fool.
>
>
>
> Honestly though, I think everyone (myself included) is rather tired  
> of the
>
> Obamaphobia and would rather you talked about something not related to
>
> politics or climate change.  Perhaps you can stick to topics that  
> you're
>
> knowledgeable in, have loads of links to documentation, etc.
>
>
>
> Genealogy?
>
>
>
> Plants?
>
>
>
> What else?
>
>
>
>> For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do
>
>> not write the news.
>
>
>
> Nope, you sure don't.  You don't even link to it when cherry- 
> picking bits
>
> and pieces from it.
>
>
>
>> Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with,
>
>> but multiple references to lies is rude and completely
>
>> unjustified.
>
>
>
> Again, you have a way out of that.  I left (and continue to leave)  
> the door
>
> wide open.  Merely document your claims.  Without documentation the  
> claims
>
> are either lies or delusional ramblings.  I figured lies would be more
>
> palatable.
>
>
>
>> If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president.
>
>> He is an expert. But then can I expect you to say he
>
>> does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.
>
>
>
> I'm done with the baseless claims and lack of cited sources for those
>
> claims.
>
>
>
> Are you done with the character assassination?
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_monkey_en_020908.gif>________________________ 
> _______________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 10:58:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:58:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes Geri, exactly like Move On, Media Matters, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, sometimes
CNN, whom always puts an Obama positive spin one everything they write about
 or else, if they can't they don't write about it at all.

All the while defaming news outlets who oppose radical agendas, whether
right or left, liberal or conservative. They twist everything. TRUTH? Gimme
a break.

So keep on watching them to get the truth. Above all, don't be corrupted by
FOX lies.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Geri Steele
Date: 6/15/2010 8:08:55 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
> In another post, Don opines, "I do not write the news."
 
No, but some folks DO write hoaxes and fake news; even more folks pass such
things on.  They scour *anything* they can get their hands on for *anything*
to use against our president, or anyone else for whom they have an
aversion... There are no qualms with them about bearing false witness.
 
 
Geri
 
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:17 AM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list"
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
>
> Don wrote:  Full former name(s). Answer none.  I thought his former name
> was Barry Soetero. That is the name he entered
> Occidental College with.  Lie?  You bet.
>
> Well, you could check this out.  Snopes identifies it as a hoax, an April
> Fool's joke that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the
> gullible.
>
> Quoting Snopes:  "...this item isn't a news report at all--it's a hoax
> whose elements are demonstrably false."  Then it quotes from the
> "source's" website, the alleged "Americans for Freedom of Information":
> "Read these tiny words very closely: the group Americans for Freedom of
> Information does not exist, just like the supposed 'AP article' you keep
> cutting and pasting into e-mails to your irritated family does not exist,
> just like the 'Daily mail article' referenced in the fake 'AP article'
> does not exist.  They're all fabrications.  Fakes.  Hoaxes.  Ask yourself
> why you're so eager to believe these obvious fakes.  No, really. Really,
> really ask yourself."
>
> In another post, Don opines, "I do not write the news."
>
> This is refreshing to know.  Unfortunately, he's not referencing news.  It
> would be very interesting to know his definition of news.  A hoaxer, see
> above, slaps "AP" on an April Fool's joke and that makes it "news"?
>
> What we do see is a rather loose handling of language, a seeming inability
> to sort out the relative merits of various claims, a marked eagerness to
> latch on to critical and outlandish allegations about President Obama, and
> a certain conspiratorial world view, to identify just a few of the
> patterns we have been seeing on Grovenet.
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 11:02:33 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:02:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
In-Reply-To: <F5A0DD4E-A145-4701-BB48-1E80E7F81426@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>	<4C17272F.000005.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<042c01cb0c60$de76c330$9b644990$@com>	<4C17B716.000011.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<F5A0DD4E-A145-4701-BB48-1E80E7F81426@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAF2E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I think that Beck, to the extent that he can think, was trying to make a bad pun on Thomas Friedman's 2006 book title, _The World is Flat_.  But there is also the possibility that he doesn't read such figures...or has a private meaning known only to himself...or, the world is actually flat  for Beck.  After all, there are some medieval components to his "thinking."

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:56 AM
To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up

And I was under the assumption that a slightly oblate spheroid was  
the best approximation of the world.

Oh, Glen Beck says the world is flat. Okay. Now I get it.

Katie


On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:23 AM, donkelly wrote:

> And if the public records are sealed, or cannot be found, under DOC  
> that
> automatically makes it untrue?
>
>
>
> OK, I give up. The world is flat.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Jeff Howden
>
> Date: 6/15/2010 1:00:57 AM
>
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
>
>
>
> Don,
>
>
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
>>
>
>> Unless they change the language, discipline still
>
>> means discipline.
>
>
>
> Yes, I'm sure it certainly still does.  And, seeing as how there  
> isn't any
>
> disciplinary action on their records, it's safe to say they weren't  
> forced
>
> to surrender their licenses.
>
>
>
>> There was a forced issue, not a voluntary
>
>> surrender.
>
>
>
> Provide proof -- seriously.  There's *nothing* in their public  
> record to
>
> suggest it was anything but voluntary.
>
>
>
> That leaves us with a logical conundrum.
>
>
>
> I can't disprove what didn't happen.
>
>
>
> You can't prove what didn't happen.
>
>
>
> However, you speak like you know something you're not saying.  So,  
> if it
>
> *did* happen (as you suggest), you can most certainly provide  
> proof.  Since
>
> you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you.
>
>
>
> The logical conundrum is solved one of two ways.
>
>
>
> 1) You distance yourself from your claim.
>
>
>
> 2) You provide links to things that document your
>
>    claims and hope the evidence has sufficient merit.
>
>
>
> I'm not holding my breath for either of those to happen.  So, until  
> then,
>
> it's nothing more than a fairytale, a ruse, a charade, etc.
>
>
>
>> And you can do without the references to lies.
>
>
>
> I left a way out for you.  All you have to do is document your claims.
>
>
>
> It's just like I tell my son.  Don't go into a conversation making  
> bold
>
> assertions you're not prepared to back up with evidence unless you're
>
> prepared to be called a liar or a fool.
>
>
>
> Honestly though, I think everyone (myself included) is rather tired  
> of the
>
> Obamaphobia and would rather you talked about something not related to
>
> politics or climate change.  Perhaps you can stick to topics that  
> you're
>
> knowledgeable in, have loads of links to documentation, etc.
>
>
>
> Genealogy?
>
>
>
> Plants?
>
>
>
> What else?
>
>
>
>> For the third time, and hopefully the last, I do
>
>> not write the news.
>
>
>
> Nope, you sure don't.  You don't even link to it when cherry- 
> picking bits
>
> and pieces from it.
>
>
>
>> Your opinion and everyone's opinion I can deal with,
>
>> but multiple references to lies is rude and completely
>
>> unjustified.
>
>
>
> Again, you have a way out of that.  I left (and continue to leave)  
> the door
>
> wide open.  Merely document your claims.  Without documentation the  
> claims
>
> are either lies or delusional ramblings.  I figured lies would be more
>
> palatable.
>
>
>
>> If you want to talk about lies, talk to your president.
>
>> He is an expert. But then can I expect you to say he
>
>> does not lie. Go ahead, make my day.
>
>
>
> I'm done with the baseless claims and lack of cited sources for those
>
> claims.
>
>
>
> Are you done with the character assassination?
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_monkey_en_020908.gif>________________________ 
> _______________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 11:02:10 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:02:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>

Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she  
asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people  
don't.

And she said it on Fox news!!!
So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care passed!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570


Katie





From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 10:08:43 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:08:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367>
	<39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367>
	<025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367>
	<128B47E6-EF9B-4FC8-BB42-59D8166EF843@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C17B39B.00000B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Just keep on watching Move On, Media Matters, CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, and DOC
and you will be documented accurately.

They always tell the truth don't they? They always report real news, don't
they? Just listen to them.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/14/2010 6:47:53 PM
To: donkelly;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversaries coming up
 
On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:52 AM, donkelly wrote:
 
> Yes, I am aware of the title Jeff, and I understand the meaning of 'may'.
 
Jeff did a good joy of providing that information.
 
>
> I also know that you understand what I am talking about.
 
Yes, irrational emotion which takes precedence over rational thought.
 
> As president, displays of patriotism are certainly expected by the people,
especially as commander of the military forces, whether or not he has a
uniform, he is still in the army and all national military services.
 
That was well addressed.  But, I don't expect you to modify your stand to
reflect reality.
>
> As a disbarred attorney, is he still looking for loopholes, or is he just
plain unpatriotic?
 
Oh, two for one!  And both wrong.
>
> Don
 
David
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 11:18:05 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:18:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Liberal slants to news.
Message-ID: <4C17C3D2.000024.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Good Ole unbiased Newsweek. You gotta love them if you like slanted news.

Try CBS for a change.

"Admissions of Liberal Bias. A number of journalists have admitted that the
majority of their brethren approach the news from a liberal angle. 

During the 2004 presidential campaign for example Newsweek?s Evan Thomas
predicted that sympathetic media coverage would boost Kerry?s vote by ?maybe
15 points? which he later revised to five points. 

In 2005ex-CBS News President Van Gordon Sauter confessed he stopped watching
his old network: 

?The unremitting liberal orientation finally became too much for me.? 


I didn't make this up.

Another news headline not reported by liberal rags- - -so far anyway.

UC-IRVINE bans (suspends) Muslim Group. 

Not made up either.

Don
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 11:24:09 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:24:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Gotcha there Jeff. 

Wrong, Not from R at all.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/15/2010 10:34:23 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda.
>
> It is a headline. I did not make it up.
 
Yup, and it's nonsense from the Republican Noise Machine.
 
http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/right-wing-war-on-aarp
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 11:38:40 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:38:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.

Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.

Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non earners.

Are both suggestions the same?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Katie Allnutt
Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
 
Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
don't.
 
And she said it on Fox news!!!
So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care passed!
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
 
 
Katie
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Tue Jun 15 11:44:54 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:44:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Liberal slants to news.
In-Reply-To: <4C17C3D2.000024.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C17C3D2.000024.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E272D7DF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Liberal is not a word that scares or worries me.  I rather like it and come from a liberal military family.  The word was never poisoned for me in spite of the years of lexicide practiced by Reagan, Rove, Robertson, Falwell, Norquist, Liddy, Cheyney and others of that ilk. I like progressive too.  What the heck:  I like important elements of socialism as practiced in Denmark, Sweden, and England...and wish that we had more of it here.  With any luck at all, we will.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 11:18 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Liberal slants to news.

Good Ole unbiased Newsweek. You gotta love them if you like slanted news.



Try CBS for a change.



"Admissions of Liberal Bias. A number of journalists have admitted that the
majority of their brethren approach the news from a liberal angle. 



During the 2004 presidential campaign for example Newsweek's Evan Thomas
predicted that sympathetic media coverage would boost Kerry's vote by "maybe
15 points" which he later revised to five points. 



In 2005ex-CBS News President Van Gordon Sauter confessed he stopped watching
his old network: 



"The unremitting liberal orientation finally became too much for me." 





I didn't make this up.



Another news headline not reported by liberal rags- - -so far anyway.



UC-IRVINE bans (suspends) Muslim Group. 



Not made up either.



Don



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 11:51:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:51:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Liberal slants to news.
In-Reply-To: <4C17C3D2.000024.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C17C3D2.000024.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <008601cb0cbb$d3d991e0$7b8cb5a0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Good Ole unbiased Newsweek. You gotta love them if
> you like slanted news.

Apparently they're good enough for "unbiased", "non-slanted" newsy-site
NewsMax.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ap6t1BoYrL9A

Jeff 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 11:51:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:51:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <008901cb0cbb$d4b94380$7e2bca80$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health
> care for non earners.

Who cares.  This has been happening for years.  Private medicine and
insurance has been subsidizing the expense of seeing and treating patients
too poor for insurance or to pay through increased costs to those who can
pay and do have insurance.

If anything, the recent health legislation shifts that balance back towards
a state of equilibrium a bit, but I don't expect you to see it that way.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 11:51:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:51:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
	<4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <008c01cb0cbb$d5ae2ad0$810a8070$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Gotcha there Jeff.
> 
> Wrong, Not from R at all.

For being significantly your junior by age, I find it ironic and pathetic
that I find myself your elder by maturity (and even more pathetic that I
feel forced to even call attention to it).  I grow tired of your
adolescence.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 12:17:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:17:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
	<4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<008c01cb0cbb$d5ae2ad0$810a8070$@com>
Message-ID: <4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>

OK, opinions OK. 10,000 people in one group, 50,000 people in another group,
and a million in other assorted groups, would disagree with you. Opinions
are good. How many people do you have behind you?

GRIN

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/15/2010 11:52:17 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Gotcha there Jeff.
>
> Wrong, Not from R at all.
 
For being significantly your junior by age, I find it ironic and pathetic
that I find myself your elder by maturity (and even more pathetic that I
feel forced to even call attention to it).  I grow tired of your
adolescence.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 13:03:14 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:03:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
	<4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<008c01cb0cbb$d5ae2ad0$810a8070$@com>
	<4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00cf01cb0cc5$d0608c30$7121a490$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> OK, opinions OK. 10,000 people in one group, 50,000
> people in another group, and a million in other
> assorted groups, would disagree with you. Opinions are
> good. How many people do you have behind you?

Your response is ad populum?  *yawn*

I don't particularly care how many people are behind me.  I don't need to
use logical fallacies to defend my position.

Good day, sir.

Jeff



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 15 14:24:49 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:24:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAED7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<744C6BD1-FC33-4F12-AD1E-0C6037364E49@teleport.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAED7@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <31F1E378-B7C1-44ED-87A7-CF5E11703F4D@teleport.com>

Mike:
The swill, it's plain,
is mainly just a pain--
(I think he's got it--
By Jove, he's got it--
And I don't wanta get too close, or I might get it too...)
WW
On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Steele, Mike wrote:

> Well, Walt, don't beat yourself up too much.  There's a choice--let  
> the swill sit there and do its damage...or point out that it's swill.
>
> I think it was Mark Twain who said that no one ever got rich by  
> overestimating the American public.
>
> Should we have total faith that the swill will (nice echo there)  
> disappear unwilled (had to get that in)?
>
> --Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:46 AM
> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Don:
> The operative word is "new" subject. "New," as in "not old,
> hackneyed, beaten to death, debunked, defunct, and sunk into utter
> desuetude."
> In short, please, no more re-hashing of stale Obama-bashing.
> I've seen the article you posit. Because you sent it around before.
> And it's just some schmuck's private opinion or fantasy or outright
> lie masquerading as "news."
> And I'm just going to start erasing entire threads unread unless we
> get something REAL to talk about. It makes me feel embarrassed and
> ashamed of myself afterward when I get roped into this rubbish and
> get angry about it.
> WW
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:14 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Here is a new headline to discuss:
>>
>> Your AARP dues go to support Obama's radical agenda.
>> It is a headline. I did not make it up.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Adam Mayer
>> Date: 6/14/2010 9:18:49 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Something else!
>>
>> Then instead of complaining, bring up a new topic for discussion.   
>> =-O
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Ed Davie wrote:
>>> Isn't there something else Grovenet can discuss besides Don's junk?
>>> Does anyone else realize how long we have been catering to his ego?
>>> Ed
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<imstp_animation_monkey_en_020908.gif>_______________________ 
>> _
>> _______________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 14:56:53 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:56:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
	<4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<008c01cb0cbb$d5ae2ad0$810a8070$@com>
	<4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <F1FDA0AE-8503-42F9-AA92-AC8408DC9EA9@verizon.net>

What if you are the only person in the world with your opinion and  
millions of others disagree with you.
Grin.

Who is right?  And who care since it is all opinion?

Katie
What if your name is Copernicus?


On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:17 PM, donkelly wrote:

> OK, opinions OK. 10,000 people in one group, 50,000 people in  
> another group,
> and a million in other assorted groups, would disagree with you.  
> Opinions
> are good. How many people do you have behind you?
>
>
>
> GRIN
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Jeff Howden
>
> Date: 6/15/2010 11:52:17 AM
>
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
>
>
>
> Don,
>
>
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
>>
>
>> Gotcha there Jeff.
>
>>
>
>> Wrong, Not from R at all.
>
>
>
> For being significantly your junior by age, I find it ironic and  
> pathetic
>
> that I find myself your elder by maturity (and even more pathetic  
> that I
>
> feel forced to even call attention to it).  I grow tired of your
>
> adolescence.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 15 15:01:38 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:01:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines at US-Mexico
	border
Message-ID: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>

N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET

Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
effective way to secure the border.

Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press reports.

"We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy. We could
put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-mullins-new-
mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is so porous
it facilitates terrorists' entry.

Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
general election in November,
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-mullins-new-
mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually think
land mines should be installed on the border.

"I am not suggesting we do that," he said.

Mullins' campaign website includes his
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-immigration.html
> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The anchor baby
philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must question the
generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S. to an
illegal immigrant.)

New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ynews_pl2602/3654
0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/35000.html> 2008
U.S. Census.

? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News. 


From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 15:07:37 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:07:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>

Question....

Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?

In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his  
slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,  
plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?

If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers  
working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work  
and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your  
business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage  
workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.

Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers  
on some job somewhere.
They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual  
labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?

If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own  
health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because  
there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that  
mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health  
care?
That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a  
country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not  
deserving of it?

We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive  
ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity  
care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible  
health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.

Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers  
of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.

Katie




On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>
>
>
> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>
>
>
> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non  
> earners.
>
>
>
> Are both suggestions the same?
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Katie Allnutt
>
> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>
>
>
> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>
> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>
> don't.
>
>
>
> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>
> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care  
> passed!
>
>
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>
>
>
>
>
> Katie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 15:11:30 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:11:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines at
	US-Mexico	border
In-Reply-To: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
Message-ID: <01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>

Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than  
just illegal immigrants.
People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right  
citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they  
themselves are not eligible.

Katie



On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>
> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
> effective way to secure the border.
>
> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX  
> radio
> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire  
> with
> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press  
> reports.
>
> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.  
> We could
> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom- 
> mullins-new-
> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is  
> so porous
> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>
> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
> general election in November,
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom- 
> mullins-new-
> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually  
> think
> land mines should be installed on the border.
>
> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>
> Mullins' campaign website includes his
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues- 
> immigration.html
>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The  
> anchor baby
> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must  
> question the
> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S. to an
> illegal immigrant.)
>
> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/ 
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/ 
> 35000.html> 2008
> U.S. Census.
>
> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 15 15:40:43 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:40:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines at
	US-Mexico	border
In-Reply-To: <01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <A6E3827E-0298-4F13-88FE-C318F9191EC1@teleport.com>

Heck, why limit the border barriers to merely land mines? Why not  
include prison-guard-type towers every 1000 yards, complete with  
searchlights, snipers and machine guns? Why not a continuous air  
cover of drone aircraft, armed with Hellfire missiles? Why not air-to- 
ground missiles with ground-penetrating warheads, designed to  
collapse illicit tunnels? Why not "daisy-cutter" bombs, just in case  
THEY try to overwhelm our defenses with a mass incursion? Shoot, why  
not just invade and conquer Mexico to eliminate the problem entirely?  
It's working in Iraq, after all. I'm sure we could afford it, by  
putting our children in debt for another 50 years.
Then again, maybe it would be cheaper to just increase drug  
rehabilitation programs for our dug addicts who finance the Mexican  
drug gangs, repeal NAFTA, which destroyed the Mexican farm-based  
economy, and begin punishing American companies that prey on low- 
wage, undocumented workers? Those measures would be LOTS cheaper....  
but Naaaaaah, that's just too simple...
On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:11 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
> just illegal immigrants.
> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
> themselves are not eligible.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>
>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>> effective way to secure the border.
>>
>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>> radio
>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>> with
>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>> reports.
>>
>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>> We could
>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>> so porous
>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>
>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>> general election in November,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>> think
>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>
>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>
>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>> immigration.html
>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>> anchor baby
>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>> question the
>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.  
>> to an
>> illegal immigrant.)
>>
>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>> 35000.html> 2008
>> U.S. Census.
>>
>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 15 15:55:27 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:55:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C3277C81-3A53-4151-9637-6D4B02E5A3C5@teleport.com>

A cogent question, Katie... Does anyone dare to answer it?
Maybe "the workman is worthy of his hire," EXCEPT when there are a  
lot of desperate workmen willing to take "unworthy" wages?
Does the CEO "earn" his boated bonuses by "risking his investment"  
and "providing the essential expertise, without which any enterprise  
would fail?"
No, because most CEOs are just hired by boards of directors-- they  
make no investment in the companies they direct, except for generous  
stock options which may be included in their pay. And as for  
"providing expertise," note the recent examples of CEOs who ran their  
companies into the ground or into federal court, and still got  
magnificent severance packages as they headed out the door.
So who "earns" what? What is "fair?" Anyone have an answer? Absent  
agreement, maybe all we can do is to harmonize a verse or two of that  
sentimental old British ballad, "Ain't it a Bleedin' Shame," and then  
prepare to go back to work tomorrow-- those of us who have work to go  
to, anyhow.
WW

On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:07 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Question....
>
> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>
> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>
> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>
> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
> on some job somewhere.
> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>
> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
> care?
> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
> deserving of it?
>
> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>
> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>> earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>
>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>
>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>
>> don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>
>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>> passed!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>____________________________________ 
>> _
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 17:32:27 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>

I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.

There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't like the 
work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.  
Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They 
are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business, and 
paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more 
profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager 
will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do 
something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is 
not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around doing 
nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> Question....
>
> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>
> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his  
> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,  
> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>
> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers  
> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work  
> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your  
> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage  
> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>
> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers  
> on some job somewhere.
> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual  
> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>
> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own  
> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because  
> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that  
> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health  
> care?
> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a  
> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not  
> deserving of it?
>
> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive  
> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity  
> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible  
> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>
> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers  
> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>   
>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non  
>> earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>
>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>
>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>
>> don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>
>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care  
>> passed!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From nospam03 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 17:47:44 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 00:47:44 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job. A big mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a location and limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that they live off welfare is akin to slavery. 
Also, there were slave bosses. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!

I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.

There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't like the 
work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.  
Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They 
are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business, and 
paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more 
profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager 
will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do 
something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is 
not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around doing 
nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> Question....
>
> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>
> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his  
> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,  
> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>
> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers  
> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work  
> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your  
> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage  
> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>
> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers  
> on some job somewhere.
> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual  
> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>
> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own  
> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because  
> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that  
> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health  
> care?
> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a  
> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not  
> deserving of it?
>
> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive  
> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity  
> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible  
> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>
> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers  
> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>   
>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non  
>> earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>
>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>
>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>
>> don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>
>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care  
>> passed!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 18:03:46 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:03:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>
	<4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>

You are correct there are vast differences between slaves and workers.
And you are also correct that the folks at the top could justify  
higher income based on risk.
(As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk their  
very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something  
about how we value 'risk'.)


What if we put it in terms of tomato pickers and Burger King CEO.
The CEO makes plenty of money to pay for health care.
The tomato picker who works long back breaking days, day after day,  
and perhaps travelling from region to region picking crops  
contributes to the success of Burger King because people like  
tomatoes on their burgers and ketchup on their fries. If the tomato  
picker got a subsidy to buy health insurance would you agree that   
the 'earners' should not be contributing to the 'non earner' tomato  
picker?

The question is where do we draw the line. I suspect that many  draw  
the line to leave out the tomato picker because he did not 'earn'  
health care. I'm trying to ask the question whether all the people  
who work in the chain of industry help to earn the profits reaped at  
the top.

Katie


On Jun 15, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>
> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't  
> like the
> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They
> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,  
> and
> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager
> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do
> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is
> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around  
> doing
> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>
> Adam
>
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>> Question....
>>
>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>
>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>
>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>
>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
>> on some job somewhere.
>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>
>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
>> care?
>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>> deserving of it?
>>
>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>>
>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>> earners.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>>
>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>>
>>> don't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>
>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>> passed!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________ 
>>> __
>>> __________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 18:30:55 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:30:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>	<4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000301cb0cf3$9122bbf0$b36833d0$@net>

How about if the workers were paid enough to pay for their health care as
they see fit?
No need for a 'subsidy' and the money would still be coming out of the
King's income.
If the King can't pay it all, he will raise the price of burgers. Then the
consumer will pay more so that there would be money to properly pay
employees.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:04 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> 
> You are correct there are vast differences between slaves and workers.
> And you are also correct that the folks at the top could justify
> higher income based on risk.
> (As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk their
> very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something
> about how we value 'risk'.)
> 
> 
> What if we put it in terms of tomato pickers and Burger King CEO.
> The CEO makes plenty of money to pay for health care.
> The tomato picker who works long back breaking days, day after day,
> and perhaps travelling from region to region picking crops
> contributes to the success of Burger King because people like
> tomatoes on their burgers and ketchup on their fries. If the tomato
> picker got a subsidy to buy health insurance would you agree that
> the 'earners' should not be contributing to the 'non earner' tomato
> picker?
> 
> The question is where do we draw the line. I suspect that many  draw
> the line to leave out the tomato picker because he did not 'earn'
> health care. I'm trying to ask the question whether all the people
> who work in the chain of industry help to earn the profits reaped at
> the top.
> 
> Katie
> 
> 
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
> 
> > I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
> >
> > There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
> > like the
> > work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
> > Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.
> They
> > are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
> > and
> > paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
> > profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The
> manager
> > will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to
> do
> > something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management
> is
> > not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
> > doing
> > nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > Katie Allnutt wrote:
> >> Question....
> >>
> >> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
> >>
> >> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
> >> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
> >> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
> >>
> >> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
> >> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive
> work
> >> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
> >> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
> >> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
> >>
> >> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
> >> on some job somewhere.
> >> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
> >> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> >> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
> >>
> >> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
> >> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> >> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
> >> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
> >> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve
> health
> >> care?
> >> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
> >> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
> >> deserving of it?
> >>
> >> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
> >> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
> >> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
> >> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working
> there.
> >>
> >> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the
> workers
> >> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
> >>
> >> Katie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
> >>> earners.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Are both suggestions the same?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Don
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------Original Message-------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Katie Allnutt
> >>>
> >>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
> >>>
> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >>>
> >>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
> >>>
> >>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor
> people
> >>>
> >>> don't.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
> >>>
> >>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
> >>> passed!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Katie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>>
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>>
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
> >>>
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
> >>> __
> >>> __________
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 18:51:19 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:51:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>	<4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C182E17.2020308@gmail.com>

Using the tomato picker example, the point I was making is that if a job 
is terrible then you need to find a way to get a better job.  I know 
that sounds very simplistic, but I have been there myself.  I wasn't 
picking tomatoes, but I have had my share of minimum wage, backbreaking 
work for very little money.  It was my motivation to not do this work 
for the rest of my life that propelled me to go to school, work hard, 
take responsibility, learn skills that are valuable to an employer and 
earn promotions.  As such I now have health care, vision care, multiple 
perks, more days off than I know what to do with, etc.  I didn't have 
that when I did the backbreaking work.

I am not saying that they shouldn't have health care, but for me not 
having it gave me motivation to get a better job.  If an employer wants 
to, and can afford to give health care, good for them.  You'll probably 
have happier, healthier and more productive employees who will benefit 
your business.  If you don't you will have lots of turnover which hurts 
any business, unproductive employees and other issues.  A smart business 
owner will weigh these options.  There is no need to have the government 
force you to do so.

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> You are correct there are vast differences between slaves and workers.
> And you are also correct that the folks at the top could justify  
> higher income based on risk.
> (As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk their  
> very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something  
> about how we value 'risk'.)
>
>
> What if we put it in terms of tomato pickers and Burger King CEO.
> The CEO makes plenty of money to pay for health care.
> The tomato picker who works long back breaking days, day after day,  
> and perhaps travelling from region to region picking crops  
> contributes to the success of Burger King because people like  
> tomatoes on their burgers and ketchup on their fries. If the tomato  
> picker got a subsidy to buy health insurance would you agree that   
> the 'earners' should not be contributing to the 'non earner' tomato  
> picker?
>
> The question is where do we draw the line. I suspect that many  draw  
> the line to leave out the tomato picker because he did not 'earn'  
> health care. I'm trying to ask the question whether all the people  
> who work in the chain of industry help to earn the profits reaped at  
> the top.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>
>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't  
>> like the
>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They
>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,  
>> and
>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager
>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do
>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is
>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around  
>> doing
>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>     
>>> Question....
>>>
>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>
>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>
>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>
>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
>>> on some job somewhere.
>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>
>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
>>> care?
>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>>> deserving of it?
>>>
>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>>>
>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>> earners.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>>
>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>
>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>>>
>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>>>
>>>> don't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>> passed!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Katie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________ 
>>>> __
>>>> __________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun 15 19:07:57 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:07:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC><4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net><4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <63379281D70D46529D6B58EB89C231A7@GeriPC>

Katie said: "(As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk 
their
very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something
about how we value 'risk'.)"

Exactly, Katie ~  Well said.  There is that awful attitude that if you 
aren't
wealthy, your very human life has less value than the life of someone who 
does
have tons of money.  Insane.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:03 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!

> You are correct there are vast differences between slaves and workers.
> And you are also correct that the folks at the top could justify
> higher income based on risk.
> (As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk their
> very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something
> about how we value 'risk'.)
>
>
> What if we put it in terms of tomato pickers and Burger King CEO.
> The CEO makes plenty of money to pay for health care.
> The tomato picker who works long back breaking days, day after day,
> and perhaps travelling from region to region picking crops
> contributes to the success of Burger King because people like
> tomatoes on their burgers and ketchup on their fries. If the tomato
> picker got a subsidy to buy health insurance would you agree that
> the 'earners' should not be contributing to the 'non earner' tomato
> picker?
>
> The question is where do we draw the line. I suspect that many  draw
> the line to leave out the tomato picker because he did not 'earn'
> health care. I'm trying to ask the question whether all the people
> who work in the chain of industry help to earn the profits reaped at
> the top.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>
>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
>> like the
>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They
>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
>> and
>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager
>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do
>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is
>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
>> doing
>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>> Question....
>>>
>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>
>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>
>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>
>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
>>> on some job somewhere.
>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>
>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
>>> care?
>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>>> deserving of it?
>>>
>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>>>
>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>> earners.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>>
>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>
>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>>>
>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>>>
>>>> don't.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>> passed!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Katie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
>>>> __
>>>> __________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 19:15:07 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:15:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C182E17.2020308@gmail.com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net>	<4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<961B2AF1-D06A-4CD9-92A3-1C4EE215F621@verizon.net>
	<4C182E17.2020308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2F8DB758-1D9A-42FE-9DEE-5139DD0E22A0@verizon.net>

That is a good point Adam. But the system has to work well enough for  
there to be jobs to get into once you decide to go to school work  
hard etc.
When there are somewhere between 8 and 50 applicants for just about  
every job these days it is hard to see it working for the generation  
that is coming up now.
My generation (and possibly yours because I suspect we are not that  
far apart in years) had many opportunities to better ourselves. I had  
a much easier time getting scholarships and working those hot labor  
intensive jobs during the summers myself and many job offers after  
schooling.

The system has been broken for a while now and there are so many  
things broken all at once there won't be a fix for any one of them  
any time soon.

Katie




On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Using the tomato picker example, the point I was making is that if  
> a job
> is terrible then you need to find a way to get a better job.  I know
> that sounds very simplistic, but I have been there myself.  I wasn't
> picking tomatoes, but I have had my share of minimum wage,  
> backbreaking
> work for very little money.  It was my motivation to not do this work
> for the rest of my life that propelled me to go to school, work hard,
> take responsibility, learn skills that are valuable to an employer and
> earn promotions.  As such I now have health care, vision care,  
> multiple
> perks, more days off than I know what to do with, etc.  I didn't have
> that when I did the backbreaking work.
>
> I am not saying that they shouldn't have health care, but for me not
> having it gave me motivation to get a better job.  If an employer  
> wants
> to, and can afford to give health care, good for them.  You'll  
> probably
> have happier, healthier and more productive employees who will benefit
> your business.  If you don't you will have lots of turnover which  
> hurts
> any business, unproductive employees and other issues.  A smart  
> business
> owner will weigh these options.  There is no need to have the  
> government
> force you to do so.
>
> Adam
>
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>> You are correct there are vast differences between slaves and  
>> workers.
>> And you are also correct that the folks at the top could justify
>> higher income based on risk.
>> (As long as you only consider risk of money - some people risk their
>> very lives and don't make much money. That should tell us something
>> about how we value 'risk'.)
>>
>>
>> What if we put it in terms of tomato pickers and Burger King CEO.
>> The CEO makes plenty of money to pay for health care.
>> The tomato picker who works long back breaking days, day after day,
>> and perhaps travelling from region to region picking crops
>> contributes to the success of Burger King because people like
>> tomatoes on their burgers and ketchup on their fries. If the tomato
>> picker got a subsidy to buy health insurance would you agree that
>> the 'earners' should not be contributing to the 'non earner' tomato
>> picker?
>>
>> The question is where do we draw the line. I suspect that many  draw
>> the line to leave out the tomato picker because he did not 'earn'
>> health care. I'm trying to ask the question whether all the people
>> who work in the chain of industry help to earn the profits reaped at
>> the top.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>>
>>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
>>> like the
>>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.   
>>> They
>>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
>>> and
>>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The  
>>> manager
>>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how  
>>> to do
>>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.   
>>> Management is
>>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
>>> doing
>>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Question....
>>>>
>>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>>
>>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>>
>>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive  
>>>> work
>>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>>
>>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8  
>>>> workers
>>>> on some job somewhere.
>>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>>
>>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does  
>>>> that
>>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve  
>>>> health
>>>> care?
>>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>>>> deserving of it?
>>>>
>>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have  
>>>> charity
>>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working  
>>>> there.
>>>>
>>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the  
>>>> workers
>>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>>
>>>> Katie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>>> earners.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and  
>>>>> she
>>>>>
>>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor  
>>>>> people
>>>>>
>>>>> don't.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>>> passed!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Katie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_________________________________ 
>>>>> __
>>>>> __
>>>>> __________
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From obrzl at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 20:53:03 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:53:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
Message-ID: <1326063096.508112.1276660383598.JavaMail.root@vznit170066>

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From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 22:03:37 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:03:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] I wonder what Pat Robertson makes of this . . . . .
In-Reply-To: <4C179357.3000907@jurislex.com>
References: <4C179357.3000907@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <B4FFAFBD-3657-48E0-823B-933780538EA7@verizon.net>

Is today George Carlin's birthday?

Regarding the Ten Commandments.  That phrase appears three times in the KJV Bible.  
Twice it is a reverence to the contents of the stone tablet with no description of the words.  
Once it is at the end of the recitation of ten commandments that were to be engraved upon the two stone tablet that were to be placed in the Ark of the Covenant. "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

That location is Exodus 34:11-28

Read them.  They define religious Israel today.   

No one on Grovenet has memorized the Ten Commandments.  They remember the statutes and judgements that were given by Moses in Deut.5 as the words of the covenent between God and Abraham at Horeb.

The have memorized what is between Exod.19:25, "So Moses went down unto the People, and spake to them." and Exod 20:21 "And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was."
Neither of those sets of commandments were described by the Bible as the "Ten Commandments"

 Jews don't push Exodus 34 as the official Ten Commandments, because - surprise - they are the chosen race and the covenant is with them, not us.  When I asked an Israeli about the two different sets, the answer was instructive.  One is for the world, one is for Israel.

David

On Jun 15, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Bob Browning wrote:

> If the item destroyed in this instance had been an atheist's house, we know what Pat Robertson would say!!  Maybe She is really in favor of the Protestant version of the Second Commandment!!
> 
> http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm
> 
> ...
> bob "better watch out for what you ask for" browning
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_lightning_strikes_jesus_statue/print
>> 
>> 6-story Jesus statue in Ohio struck by lightning

From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 22:32:45 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:32:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wow ! ! !
In-Reply-To: <c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
References: <4C16BDB0.8080003@jurislex.com>
	<28F985F5-D283-49F8-A729-A4E8FC7BDFAB@verizon.net>
	<4C16FEAB.7080809@gmail.com>
	<c133e05dd34fab69b5d82c647b3e8ed9.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
Message-ID: <C7C65913-D158-47E8-B73C-04C93FC3EFF1@verizon.net>

Obviously your grandchild wasn't playing in the game.

I get great enjoyment watching my grandchild play.  I wish I could have been present for the last game where, as goalie, she made four great saves, and as a forward made one goal.  Because it was recorded, I did get to see the game highlights.  Now that was a great gift.

Oh, her basket ball games are great fun to watch, too.

Gosh, am I bragging?  Well, yeah, I sure am.

Maybe the problem isn't the type of game, as much as it is our interest in the members of the team.  Professional sports is "so-so" for my interest.  My kids baseball games were a whole 'nother story.  I cheered until I was hoarse, or they ask me to stop.

David


On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:58 AM, jawelch at coho.net wrote:

> That, and the fact that watching almost 100 minutes of playing to a 1-1 tie has been compared to the same amount of time spent watching paint dry.
> John



From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 22:46:58 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:46:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net>
	<4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com>
	<4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com>
	<4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com>
	<4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <31A74BF1-7953-4EF5-BFF2-55EBDF20F7D1@verizon.net>

No, FOX has become Liberal media.  <smile>

And her mother, Laura Bush isn't a Republican either, because she is not opposed to gay marriage or medical abortions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/may/12/laura-bush-gay-marriage-abortion

Who knew?

Maybe there really is middle ground?

David


On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people don't.
> 
> And she said it on Fox news!!!
> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care passed!
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
> 
> 
> Katie



From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 15 23:02:30 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:02:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <DDFA9328670940CEB23578E7C3D94CC8@EdDaviePC>
	<4C16FF1E.5000902@gmail.com>
	<4C17B503.00000E.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006101cb0cb0$f5d6bee0$e1843ca0$@com>
	<4C17C546.00002C.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
	<008c01cb0cbb$d5ae2ad0$810a8070$@com>
	<4C17D1A9.00003A.02276@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <569175DA-0C35-449C-BF59-52E453056FB8@verizon.net>

I don't know if you really want to go by the numbers.

1.5 billion Muslims.  
1.3 billion Chinese atheists.  
   1 billion Roman Catholics
0.9 billion Hindus.  
0.5 billion Protestants
0.2 billion Orthodox

David

On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:17 PM, donkelly wrote:

> OK, opinions OK. 10,000 people in one group, 50,000 people in another group, and a million in other assorted groups, would disagree with you. Opinions are good. How many people do you have behind you?
> 
> GRIN
> 
> Don



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 00:00:12 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 00:00:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
	atUS-Mexicoborder
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>

Seed the border area with claymore mines. 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Katie Allnutt
Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
atUS-Mexicoborder
 
Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
just illegal immigrants.
People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
themselves are not eligible.
 
Katie
 
 
 
On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
 
> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>
> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
> effective way to secure the border.
>
> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
> radio
> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
> with
> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
> reports.
>
> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
> We could
> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
> mullins-new-
> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
> so porous
> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>
> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
> general election in November,
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
> mullins-new-
> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
> think
> land mines should be installed on the border.
>
> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>
> Mullins' campaign website includes his
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
> immigration.html
>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
> anchor baby
> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
> question the
> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S. to an
> illegal immigrant.)
>
> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
> ynews_pl2602/3654
> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
> 35000.html> 2008
> U.S. Census.
>
> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 00:21:20 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 00:21:20 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367>

Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steve
Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
 
We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job. A big
mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a location and
limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that they live
off welfare is akin to slavery.
Also, there were slave bosses.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
 
I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
 
There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't like the
work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They
are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business, and
paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager
will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do
something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is
not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around doing
nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
 
Adam
 
Katie Allnutt wrote:
> Question....
>
> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>
> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>
> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>
> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
> on some job somewhere.
> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>
> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
> care?
> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
> deserving of it?
>
> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>
> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>
>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>> earners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>
>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>
>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>>
>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>>
>> don't.
>>
>>
>>
>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>
>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>> passed!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 01:03:16 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 01:03:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Records
Message-ID: <4C18853E.000018.02324@DON-B2514E06367>

Can you help Shayne Chris?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Shayne Lowe (26358)
Date: 6/16/2010 12:19:10 AM
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: Records
 
Hello, i have retrieved your contact details of the IGP archives p[ages in
relation to Roscommon county records. This page lists you as the file
manager.
I am chasing some genealogy information regarding my ancestry in the
Roscommon region around the 1850?s and possible earlier. What would you
suggest is the best way to approach this ?
 
Thanks for your time
 
Regards
 
Shayne Lowe
 
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 07:36:24 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:36:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A18B-4F849DCDE4B0@verizon.net>

Union members are free to quit their jobs anytime they wish. No ties  
to bind you if you want to leave.

: )

Katie

On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:21 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Steve
>
> Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>
>
>
> We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job.  
> A big
> mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a  
> location and
> limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that  
> they live
> off welfare is akin to slavery.
>
> Also, there were slave bosses.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>
>
>
> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>
>
>
> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't  
> like the
>
> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>
> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.  They
>
> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,  
> and
>
> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>
> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The manager
>
> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to do
>
> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management is
>
> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around  
> doing
>
> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>
>
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>
>> Question....
>
>>
>
>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>
>>
>
>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>
>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>
>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>
>>
>
>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>
>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive work
>
>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>
>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>
>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>
>>
>
>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
>
>> on some job somewhere.
>
>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>
>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>
>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>
>>
>
>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>
>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>
>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>
>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
>
>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve health
>
>> care?
>
>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>
>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>
>> deserving of it?
>
>>
>
>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>
>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
>
>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>
>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working there.
>
>>
>
>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the workers
>
>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>
>>
>
>> Katie
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>
>>> earners.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Don
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>
>>>
>
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>
>>>
>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>
>>>
>
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
>
>>>
>
>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor people
>
>>>
>
>>> don't.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>
>>>
>
>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>
>>> passed!
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Katie
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>>
>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>
>>>
>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
>>>
>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________ 
>>> __
>
>>> __________
>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>___________________ 
> ____________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun 16 07:47:54 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:47:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: David Morelli <jo.david@verizon.net>'s message of Tue,
	15 Jun	2010 23:02:30 -0700
Message-ID: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

I do not know about the rest of the grove, but I am still waiting for a
new subject.
One that is worth discussing with-out  ending up in a pissing match!

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 07:57:35 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:57:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <7E6119ABE42146F59AC8C1DA21E8D86D@GeriPC>

Got any rose photos, Alan?  It's been a while ....

Also, have any suggestions for someone who wants to start growing a few in their yard -- someone who hasn't done it before? (It isn't me, though.)

  Geri




From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:47 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject


I do not know about the rest of the grove, but I am still waiting for a
new subject.
One that is worth discussing with-out  ending up in a pissing match!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it! 
      God Bless The U. S. A.
                 
                 
                 
           


        



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 08:09:19 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:09:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A18B-4F849DCDE4B0@verizon.net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A18B-4F849DCDE4B0@	verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000901cb0d65$e59b0170$b0d10450$@net>

If you have union support. You do risk your health insurance and pension.
If you have a union grievance, you then need to go through the proper
prceedure.
If you just quit, you may be out of the union as well.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:36 AM
> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> 
> Union members are free to quit their jobs anytime they wish. No ties
> to bind you if you want to leave.
> 
> : )
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:21 AM, donkelly wrote:
> 
> > Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Steve
> >
> > Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
> >
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job.
> > A big
> > mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a
> > location and
> > limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that
> > they live
> > off welfare is akin to slavery.
> >
> > Also, there were slave bosses.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> >
> > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
> >
> > To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
> >
> >
> >
> > There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
> > like the
> >
> > work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
> >
> > Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.
> They
> >
> > are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
> > and
> >
> > paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
> >
> > profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The
> manager
> >
> > will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to
> do
> >
> > something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management
> is
> >
> > not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
> > doing
> >
> > nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
> >
> > Katie Allnutt wrote:
> >
> >> Question....
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
> >
> >> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
> >
> >> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
> >
> >> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive
> work
> >
> >> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
> >
> >> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
> >
> >> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8 workers
> >
> >> on some job somewhere.
> >
> >> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
> >
> >> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
> >
> >> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
> >
> >> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
> >
> >> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
> >
> >> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does that
> >
> >> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve
> health
> >
> >> care?
> >
> >> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
> >
> >> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
> >
> >> deserving of it?
> >
> >>
> >
> >> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
> >
> >> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have charity
> >
> >> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
> >
> >> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working
> there.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the
> workers
> >
> >> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Katie
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
> >
> >>> earners.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Are both suggestions the same?
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Don
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> -------Original Message-------
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> From: Katie Allnutt
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and she
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor
> people
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> don't.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
> >
> >>> passed!
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Katie
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
> >
> >>>
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
> >>> __
> >
> >>> __________
> >
> >>> GroveNet mailing list
> >
> >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > GroveNet mailing list
> >
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > GroveNet mailing list
> >
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
> >
> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>___________________
> > ____________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun 16 08:15:47 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:15:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Wed,
	16 Jun 2010 07:57:35 -0700
Message-ID: <16324-4C18EAA3-241@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Geri wrote...
Got any rose photos, Alan? It's been a while .... 
Also, have any suggestions for someone who wants to start growing a few
in their yard -- someone who hasn't done it before? (It isn't me,
though.) 
======
Geri... I do have a few roses, but today isn't the day to post pix.. to
darn dark to take a shots.

As for roses... it is a bit late in the season to plant roses.?
However, if you can find some roses already in pots for sale, they can
be taken care of until next spring inside your home.  And usually these
potted roses have the planting instructions included on or some where in
the pot.  I think Fred's has a couple left.

As for new roses for me, I missed out on get any from Bi Mar this year.
I recall telling the grove that I lost over half of mine, and asked that
anyone who saw some at Bi Mat tol et  me know, but no one spoke up.. so
now I just have to wait till next season.

~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!???




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 08:22:37 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:22:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C18EAA3-241@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16324-4C18EAA3-241@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <9F9F65B700714A16AA3D3E9ABDF32FCD@GeriPC>

Well, it just seems odd that Ole Hoss has less roses this year, know
what I mean? Real sorry to hear about that...

Hey, I like that idea about potted ones you can take
care of indoors until the next good time to plant -- Thanks for that
tip, which I can pass along...  appreciate it!

You're right, it's dark today!


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan Domenghini" <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:15 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject

> Geri wrote...
> Got any rose photos, Alan? It's been a while .... 
> Also, have any suggestions for someone who wants to start growing a few
> in their yard -- someone who hasn't done it before? (It isn't me,
> though.) 
> ======
> Geri... I do have a few roses, but today isn't the day to post pix.. to
> darn dark to take a shots.
> 
> As for roses... it is a bit late in the season to plant roses. 
> However, if you can find some roses already in pots for sale, they can
> be taken care of until next spring inside your home.  And usually these
> potted roses have the planting instructions included on or some where in
> the pot.  I think Fred's has a couple left.
> 
> As for new roses for me, I missed out on get any from Bi Mar this year.
> I recall telling the grove that I lost over half of mine, and asked that
> anyone who saw some at Bi Mat tol et  me know, but no one spoke up.. so
> now I just have to wait till next season.
> 
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!   
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 16 08:46:00 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:46:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <D6892CEF-B44B-453E-82A5-1956A98C1AB1@teleport.com>

Me too, Allen!
How about food in the future? As energy prices go up and "little  
accidents" like the Gulf oil spill continue, people are going to have  
to pay more for food, or begin producing more of their own. This will  
involve learning  more practical skills and doing more daily chores,  
meaning living on your own will become a luxury... people will have  
to get together just to make sure the livestock are fed and the weeds  
pulled in the garden, in addition to holding down their "regular"  
jobs, if any. Given the stubborn inertia of the auto industry and Big  
Oil, plus conservative resistance to investing in public transport  
and similar "socialist" measures, transportation will also become  
more of a luxury. Meaning more car-pooling and less casual trips.  
Maybe even a return to the old "jitney" system.
Anyone else care to pick some other aspect of our lives and apply  
their own knowledge to spin it into the future and consider how  
things might change?
WW
On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:47 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> I do not know about the rest of the grove, but I am still waiting  
> for a
> new subject.
> One that is worth discussing with-out  ending up in a pissing match!
>
> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
>
> God Bless The U. S. A.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 16 08:50:11 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:50:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject--roses
In-Reply-To: <7E6119ABE42146F59AC8C1DA21E8D86D@GeriPC>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<7E6119ABE42146F59AC8C1DA21E8D86D@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <A47237D5-3AFC-45A9-8ED6-E1BE66AB8491@teleport.com>

Fungus is always a problem with roses in Oregon-- make sure the  
bushes aren't crowded by other vegetation, and keep excess branches  
trimmed out. Also pay attention to aphids and similar problems. Soap  
or nicotine solution sprays are organic, but a bother.
That's why i don't (intentionally) grow roses. Too dern much work!   
The ones growing alongside my driveway are on their own.  :^)
WW
On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Geri Steele wrote:

> Got any rose photos, Alan?  It's been a while ....
>
> Also, have any suggestions for someone who wants to start growing a  
> few in their yard -- someone who hasn't done it before? (It isn't  
> me, though.)
>
>   Geri
>
>
>
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:47 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
>
>
> I do not know about the rest of the grove, but I am still waiting  
> for a
> new subject.
> One that is worth discussing with-out  ending up in a pissing match!
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ----------
>
>
> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
>       God Bless The U. S. A.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ----------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 16 08:51:46 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <000901cb0d65$e59b0170$b0d10450$@net>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC>
	<4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net>
	<4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com>
	<2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A18B-4F849DCDE4B0@	verizon.net>
	<000901cb0d65$e59b0170$b0d10450$@net>
Message-ID: <F067ACCD-0FEF-4C23-B940-7E85EE6A16A1@teleport.com>

All red herrings. I was in a union for years, and none are true.
WW
On Jun 16, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Steven wrote:

> If you have union support. You do risk your health insurance and  
> pension.
> If you have a union grievance, you then need to go through the proper
> prceedure.
> If you just quit, you may be out of the union as well.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:36 AM
>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>> Union members are free to quit their jobs anytime they wish. No ties
>> to bind you if you want to leave.
>>
>> : )
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:21 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Steve
>>>
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
>>>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job.
>>> A big
>>> mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a
>>> location and
>>> limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that
>>> they live
>>> off welfare is akin to slavery.
>>>
>>> Also, there were slave bosses.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
>>>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
>>> like the
>>>
>>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>>>
>>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.
>> They
>>>
>>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
>>> and
>>>
>>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>>>
>>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The
>> manager
>>>
>>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to
>> do
>>>
>>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management
>> is
>>>
>>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
>>> doing
>>>
>>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Question....
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>>
>>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>>>
>>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>>
>>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive
>> work
>>>
>>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>>
>>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>>
>>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8  
>>>> workers
>>>
>>>> on some job somewhere.
>>>
>>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>>
>>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>>
>>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>>
>>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>>
>>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>>
>>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does  
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve
>> health
>>>
>>>> care?
>>>
>>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>>
>>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>>>
>>>> deserving of it?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>>>
>>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have  
>>>> charity
>>>
>>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>>
>>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working
>> there.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the
>> workers
>>>
>>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Katie
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>
>>>>> earners.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and  
>>>>> she
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor
>> people
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> don't.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>
>>>>> passed!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Katie
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>
>>>>>
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
>>>>> __
>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>
>> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>__________________ 
>> _
>>> ____________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 08:54:11 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:54:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject--roses
In-Reply-To: <A47237D5-3AFC-45A9-8ED6-E1BE66AB8491@teleport.com>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><7E6119ABE42146F59AC8C1DA21E8D86D@GeriPC>
	<A47237D5-3AFC-45A9-8ED6-E1BE66AB8491@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <E2A476DBB34F4964AEBF25537B01277D@GeriPC>

Good grief, good to know, Walt - thanks!
(Had a couple plants here in our yard which were
always on their own, too.  Some years they were
beautiful; some years, just about non-existent.)


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:50 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject--roses

> Fungus is always a problem with roses in Oregon-- make sure the  
> bushes aren't crowded by other vegetation, and keep excess branches  
> trimmed out. Also pay attention to aphids and similar problems. Soap  
> or nicotine solution sprays are organic, but a bother.
> That's why i don't (intentionally) grow roses. Too dern much work!   
> The ones growing alongside my driveway are on their own.  :^)
> WW
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Geri Steele wrote:
> 
>> Got any rose photos, Alan?  It's been a while ....
>>
>> Also, have any suggestions for someone who wants to start growing a  
>> few in their yard -- someone who hasn't done it before? (It isn't  
>> me, though.)
>>
>>   Geri
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Alan Domenghini
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:47 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
>>
>>
>> I do not know about the rest of the grove, but I am still waiting  
>> for a
>> new subject.
>> One that is worth discussing with-out  ending up in a pissing match!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----------
>>
>>
>> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
>>       God Bless The U. S. A.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 09:49:52 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:49:52 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <F067ACCD-0FEF-4C23-B940-7E85EE6A16A1@teleport.com>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC><4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net><4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com><2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367><347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A18B-4F849DCDE4B0@
	verizon.net><000901cb0d65$e59b0170$b0d10450$@net><F067ACCD-0FEF-4C23-B940-7E85EE6A16A1@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1217274296-1276707001-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961796902-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Thank you walt for the well though out post. Such information is always helpful in a discussion. It follows in the line of your other great posts i Have read and replied.   
-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:51:46 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!

All red herrings. I was in a union for years, and none are true.
WW
On Jun 16, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Steven wrote:

> If you have union support. You do risk your health insurance and  
> pension.
> If you have a union grievance, you then need to go through the proper
> prceedure.
> If you just quit, you may be out of the union as well.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:36 AM
>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>
>> Union members are free to quit their jobs anytime they wish. No ties
>> to bind you if you want to leave.
>>
>> : )
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:21 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Steve
>>>
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
>>>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job.
>>> A big
>>> mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a
>>> location and
>>> limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that
>>> they live
>>> off welfare is akin to slavery.
>>>
>>> Also, there were slave bosses.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
>>>
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
>>> like the
>>>
>>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>>>
>>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.
>> They
>>>
>>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
>>> and
>>>
>>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>>>
>>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The
>> manager
>>>
>>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to
>> do
>>>
>>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management
>> is
>>>
>>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
>>> doing
>>>
>>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Question....
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>>
>>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the holes,
>>>
>>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>>
>>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive
>> work
>>>
>>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>>
>>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>>
>>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8  
>>>> workers
>>>
>>>> on some job somewhere.
>>>
>>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>>
>>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>>
>>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>>
>>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>>
>>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>>
>>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does  
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve
>> health
>>>
>>>> care?
>>>
>>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>>
>>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus not
>>>
>>>> deserving of it?
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all inclusive
>>>
>>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have  
>>>> charity
>>>
>>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>>
>>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working
>> there.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the
>> workers
>>>
>>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Katie
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>
>>>>> earners.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Don
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and  
>>>>> she
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor
>> people
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> don't.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>
>>>>> passed!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Katie
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>
>>>>>
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
>>>>> __
>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>
>> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>__________________ 
>> _
>>> ____________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun 16 09:56:43 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Wed,
	16 Jun 2010 08:54:11 -0700
Message-ID: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
say... 

My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.  

In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.  First I
would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
criminal case.
In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
scrutinised. 

As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
members.

In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
again, it's only a gut instinct.

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 10:06:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:06:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Why is Obamacare Unconstitutional?
Message-ID: <4C19047B.00000D.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

What do you folks think of this; is it constitutional or unconstitutional:

My personal opinion, not always accurate, so not always agreed with, is the
following:

The government should not take over any private enterprise, except in time
of national emergency, like a war, and to promptly return control the
private enterprises seized to the owners when the emergency is over.

It seems clear that the government, to defend America, would have to take a
measure of control, like security, over enterprises like railroads, vehicle
factories, aircraft factories, munitions factories, to make sure that the
emergency is not permanent.

Our government has taken over health care, and is dictating how to run
companies associated with health care. There was no national emergency that
would give the government reason to take over.

The government should immediately return these assets to their owners, and
stop dictating actions to American citizens not supported by the
constitution. The good things can be accomplished very well, by market
requirements, without operating under a virtual dictatorship.

Two cents worth done. What are your opinions.

Don
 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Van Irion
Date: 6/16/2010 6:52:14 AM
To: don
Subject: Why is Obamacare Unconstitutional?
 
Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser.

don,

As a plaintiff on the Obamacare lawsuit, you?ve probably been asked why
Obamacare is unconstitutional. So, I wanted to share a couple illustrations
that explain why Obamacare is unconstitutional. 
In 1919, the regulation of a drug - alcohol - required a Constitutional
amendment to be ratified by the States. Yet, today we have the FDA which
regulates every "prescription" drug and the DEA which regulates every 
illegal" drug. We even have a "Drug Czar" on the President's cabinet. So how
did we go from requiring a Constitutional amendment to regulate just one
drug, to multiple Federal agencies that regulate drugs without any
Constitutional amendment whatsoever? The answer is that the Supreme Court's
Commerce Clause precedent destroyed the limitations placed upon the Federal
Government by our Founding Fathers. 
During the presidency of FDR, the Supreme Court drastically changed the
interpretation of the Commerce Clause to empower Congress to regulate
Commerce within the States. For the prior 150 years, the Supreme Court
interpreted the Commerce clause to prevent unfair competition between the
States. For the past 73 years, Congress has viewed the precedent from the
FDR court as Constitutional authority to regulate whatever they please. They
know that the courts will not overturn legislation in light of the 1937
precedent. This reasoning, however, holds all of America captive to the
decision of a handful of men from the 1930's. Our government is no longer
guided by our founding document, the Constitution. 
One of the arguments I will be making in this case is that the FDR court got
it wrong and the past 70+ years of American history is the proof. I am going
to ask the court to look at the original intent of the Constitution, in its
entirety, and answer the question, "How can the current interpretation of
the Commerce clause be correct if it negates the purpose of the Constitution
 to limit the power of the Federal government, and specifically negates the
10th Amendment?" One of the most basic canons of legal interpretation is
that one phrase within a document cannot be interpreted in such a way as to
negate the purpose of the entire document. 
So that leads us to a discussion of the purpose of the Constitution, which
is to preserve our God given rights and provide for the impartial rule of
law. It does this by setting up how the United States is supposed to operate
 The Constitution deals with very few issues specifically because the
Framers intended that most issues would be handled by the States or
Individuals (see the 10th Amendment). The figure to the left illustrates how
our founders envisioned the relationship between the federal government, the
states, and the people. The pyramid represents the amount of authority that
each group should have. Individuals should have the most authority, which
they delegate a portion of to the State, to handle issues they collectively
agree are best handled at the state level. The State then delegates some of
its authority to the Fed to handle issues like coining money, providing for
the common defense and controlling immigration. Section 1, Article 8 of the
Constitution lists the delegated authorities given to Congress. 
I have read the Constitution many times and still have not found "Health
Care" in Article 8 of Section 1. So under another canon of legal
interpretation, "Plain Meaning", the Constitution clearly intended the 10th
Amendment to leave "Health Care" to the States or to the People. The 10th
Amendment reads ?The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people.? A plain meaning interpretation leads to the
clear conclusion that the Constitution never intended the Federal government
to regulate Health Care. History proves this to be true. The United States
didn't have Federal health care regulations until the post FDR court era, as
we illustrated with the Constitutional amendment required to regulate
alcohol. 
The figure to the right I hope illustrates how critical this challenge to
Obamacare is. The erroneous Commerce clause interpretation has literally
turned our Constitution on its head. Instead of authority deriving from the
people and then being delegated to the State and then the Fed, we now wake
up to news nearly every morning telling us how a recent decision on the
Federal level will affect every citizen. 535 people in Congress and one
person in the White House decide how the rest of us, more than 300 million
people, will live. Using the illustration of the pyramid, it is easy to see
how unstable and unsustainable the way we currently operate is. 
This is why I framed the legal arguments of this case to require the court
to re-evaluate current precedent in light of the original intent of the
Constitution. We need to do more than just over turn Obamacare as the State
lawsuits attempt to do. That would be a great victory, however with current
legal precedent, it would be a short lived victory. We must deal with the
root of the problem, the incorrect interpretation of the Constitution. With
the help of the many learned and experienced Constitutional attorneys that
have volunteered their assistance, we have an excellent chance of turning
this pyramid right side up. 
Expect to see a case update in the next few days. In the meantime, please
let everyone you know that they can join the lawsuit for a onetime cost of
just $10. Every American that joins brings more media attention to our cause
 and makes it more difficult for the courts to simply dismiss our case. It
is my honor to represent you. With your help we will turn our country around
 
In Liberty, 
Van 
Forward this email to a friend
Update your profile
You are receiving this email because you know Van Irion. 
Unsubscribe ocollaugh at comcast.net from this list.



 
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From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 10:13:24 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:13:24 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Wed,16 Jun 2010 08:54:11
	-0700<16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <1834189192-1276708405-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1379091535-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the gym. The teacher who blew this off and marked him absent. 
Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no discord there.
This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off somewhere safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All evidence points to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project With his class.  
-----Original Message-----
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......

I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
say...

My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.

In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.  First I
would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
criminal case.
In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
scrutinised.

As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
members.

In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
again, it's only a gut instinct.




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 11:10:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:10:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

Ah yes Hoss. 

Ideally yes, but hard to do. 

All one has to say is, "I honor the flag and the national anthem and the
constitution, and every American should do the same", and that should not
start a pissing match, but it does. So go figure.

Don scratching his well worn and thinning hair. 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Alan Domenghini
Date: 6/16/2010 7:48:28 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
 

God Bless The U. S. A.






 

 
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 11:48:38 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:48:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
	atUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Seed the border area with claymore mines.

I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or that you're
joking and think that's actually funny.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 11:59:59 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:59:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
References: <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Wed,16 Jun 2010 08:54:11
	-0700<16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<1834189192-1276708405-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1379091535-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4C191F2C.000026.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

One thing Alan would do first is talk to the teacher and kids who were at
the science project. Did his project not win as best? Could he have been
upset and wander off in that state of mind?

If he wandered off, where would he likely go?

And yes, the teacher when discovering he was missing from the group, should
have made an effort to find him, send boys to the restroom to see if he was
there, or in the cafeteria, or in a closet crying?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steve
Date: 6/16/2010 10:14:01 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
 
How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher
assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the gym. The
teacher who blew this off and marked him absent.
Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no discord
there.
This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off somewhere
safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All evidence points
to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project With his
class.
-----Original Message-----
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
 
I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
say...
 
My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.
 
In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.  First I
would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
criminal case.
In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
scrutinised.
 
As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
members.
 
In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
again, it's only a gut instinct.
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 12:02:56 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <0DC895119D95408E98DEDF0D22673693@EdDaviePC>

I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert" being utilized!
If not, why not? 
I would think it would be the first thing considered!
Ed


From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:56 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......



From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun 16 12:38:37 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:38:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:

www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content

--Mike 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 12:41:40 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:41:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
	landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny. 

The ultimate harm would come to animals and innocent people.

That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same in some cases) would not
be stupid enough to walk into a deployed claymore ordinance.

Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or unmanned aircraft
quickly on the scene, would seem to make more sense. 

Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border and alert
personnel of intruders. 

But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there, and hopefully some
would be willing to help protect their homes and families. 

That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent from harm.

It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and escorting a group
of mules, followed by another guy carrying an AK47. 

In which case terminate with extreme prejudice.............meaning, spoil
their day.

Likely the mules will drop their packs and beat feet for home.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 11:48:56 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
 
I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or that you're
joking and think that's actually funny.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 13:40:18 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:40:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
	atUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51@verizon.net>

One reason I never support republicans is the split personality  
disorder they have on so many issues:

CaseA:
Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.

Case B:
Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an  
anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.

And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.

Katie

On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Katie Allnutt
> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
> atUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
> just illegal immigrants.
> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
> themselves are not eligible.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>
>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>> effective way to secure the border.
>>
>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>> radio
>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>> with
>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>> reports.
>>
>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>> We could
>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>> so porous
>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>
>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>> general election in November,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>> think
>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>
>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>
>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>> immigration.html
>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>> anchor baby
>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>> question the
>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.  
>> to an
>> illegal immigrant.)
>>
>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>> 35000.html> 2008
>> U.S. Census.
>>
>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 13:50:54 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:50:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
	landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>
	<4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.

What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
such a preposterous suggestion?

> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
> innocent people.
> 
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
> into a deployed claymore ordinance.

Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.

I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've missed
out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country illegally,
but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.

Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more expensive
the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
industry.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021

KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - he
said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that they
catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 300
bucks a pop.

CONAN: Ted Robbins?

ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. There
have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened is
the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be that
way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and subject
to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
wherever.

> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
> make more sense.

The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
motion detectors.

With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
1,200 miles to outfit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border

Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd all
have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't filter
them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is to
pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.

For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing you
could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got to
come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power to
monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
crossing attempt, etc.

For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more than
every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts per
day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs for
all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
minutes, at best.

Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
numbers go up drastically.

> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
> and alert personnel of intruders.

Drastic, and expensive.

> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
> homes and families.

Murder is still murder.

> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
> from harm.

People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.

> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
> carrying an AK47.

Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 13:59:51 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <4C193B46.000053.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

Brief?

That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by developing
various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.

We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
data that swirls endlessly around us.

As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative to
what they actually said they would do.

One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media. 

That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug point,
is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is another
signal. 

Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they don't
care. 

They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history, life
or death of traditions, will stop them. 

They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
reality.   

And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of going
too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal consequences.

Thank you Mike

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
 
Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but
expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
 
www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
 
--Mike
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 14:12:22 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C193B46.000053.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C193B46.000053.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <01fa01cb0d98$9eb4a4e0$dc1deea0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note
> what someone said, and on the other side of the scale
> note what the person actually did relative to what
> they actually said they would do.

This only works if we know all the facts involved and are willing to include
all the facts involved in our assessment of the situation.  Without that and
the emotional integrity to not try to make the facts arrive at a conclusion
we've already drawn, we inevitably going to be incorrect in our conclusion
except by the rare chance that our initial conclusion was correct to begin
with.

> One need not have a difficult time, even without
> professional level credentials, to detect a
> Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure
> through visual media.
> 
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a
> particularly smug point, is one signal. Promise
> everything and give as little as possible, is another
> signal.

Making judgments like that work in a vacuum where the one making the
judgments isn't bringing their own emotional baggage into the judgment
process.  However, none of us operate within a vacuum or without baggage.
So, we're all going to see the situation/motive/outcome a little
differently.  Additionally, us humans have a silly, but useful/necessary
propensity to make things up to fill the gaps in our knowledge.  So, when
casting judgment and we run into something that doesn't make sense and/or
can't be explained, we ignore it, twist it, or make up our own explanations
that may or may not fly in the face of actual facts in the situation that no
one disputes.

Alan can probably attest to this with crimes and witness testimony, some of
it no doubt contradictory, even though they contain elements of similarity.
Who's testimony is wrong?  Who's view of the situation is wrong?

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 15:12:39 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:12:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
	suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>	<019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>
	<4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
Message-ID: <4C194C57.000065.02520@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas. 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 1:57:20 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
 
What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
such a preposterous suggestion?
 
> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
> innocent people.
>
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
 
Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
 
I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've missed
out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country illegally,
but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
 
Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more expensive
the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
industry.
 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
 
KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - he
said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that they
catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 300
bucks a pop.
 
CONAN: Ted Robbins?
 
ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. There
have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened is
the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be that
way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and subject
to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
wherever.
 
> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
> make more sense.
 
The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
motion detectors.
 
With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
1,200 miles to outfit.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
 
Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd all
have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't filter
them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is to
pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
 
For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing you
could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got to
come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power to
monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
crossing attempt, etc.
 
For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more than
every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts per
day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs for
all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
minutes, at best.
 
Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
numbers go up drastically.
 
> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
> and alert personnel of intruders.
 
Drastic, and expensive.
 
> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
> homes and families.
 
Murder is still murder.
 
> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
> from harm.
 
People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
 
> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
> carrying an AK47.
 
Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 15:18:25 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:18:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C193B46.000053.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<4C193B46.000053.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiks-uigkg5MPD7TWXb7xksBJZ-nScVPKJ7Ea_Dv@mail.gmail.com>

To the list,

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think Don has finally managed to
describe himself with some honestly. What he's written fits him to a Tee.
Freudian slip? Perhaps, but I think he must have been looking in the mirror
for inspiration when he wrote this one.

jimz

PS: My comments are below.


On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:59 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> Brief?
>
> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
> developing
> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>
> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>

Yes, conjecture, paranoid, conspiratorial mind-play, rumor mongering, fear
mongering, lying, intentional falsification of evidence to skew the truth
and cast doubt, and on and on.

>
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative
> to
> what they actually said they would do.
>
> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>

Yes, you should be able to *detect a Narcissistic personality* every time
you look in the mirror.

>
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug point,
> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
> another
> signal.
>

Boy, you describe yourself well here. You promise everything, but rarely
deliver. And altho we can't see you do it, your sharp jabs and snide
comments certainly amount to an aloof and smug personality.

>
> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they
> don't

care.
>

That's spot on Don, *You* don't care what others think, and ultimately, your
behavior speaks for itself. You just don't care.

>
> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history,
> life
> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>

Yes, *You* do whatever you want to do, despite the multitude of evidence
offered up to counter your biased drivel. And yes again, *nothing, truth or
fiction in history, life or death of traditions will stop* you. You have
become as annoying as a gnat, no amount of swatting seems able to make you
go away.

>
> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
> reality.
>

*You* seem to live by this credo. You constantly try to shape reality to
your view, regardless of how outrageous and preposterous your claims. You
snub your nose at the truth and then expect us to respect you. That in
itself is a distortion of reality.

>
> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of going
> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
> consequences.
>

This is no surprise, you never go into detail on anything. And the extremist
views you've spewed are indeed dangerous. You are a prime example of a
clueless, jabbering mouthpiece whose words have the potential of leading to
fatal consequences. Your constant berating of Obama is one such example. You
like to incite and then walk away. You have done nothing to establish honest
dialogue on this list, all I ever see are attempts to rattle the opposition.
You take sick pride in stirring things up.

And finally. Thanks for exposing yourself to us all. No one else could have
done a better job!

>
> Thank you Mike
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steele, Mike
> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but
> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 15:23:42 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:23:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican
	candidate	suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <4C194C57.000065.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>	<019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>
	<4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>	<01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
	<4C194C57.000065.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <3FF431B2-436F-480B-A8EA-65C0FFA4DC8E@verizon.net>


On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>

You are such a hoot Don.

Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a  
link to his source material.

It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was  
from from NM, not Texas.

In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original  post:

 From Jeff:
N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET

Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
effective way to secure the border.

Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 15:37:31 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:37:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
	suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <4C194C57.000065.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com>
	<01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net>
	<4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<019801cb0d84$8aa144e0$9fe3cea0$@com>
	<4C1928F0.00003E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
	<4C194C57.000065.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <001001cb0da4$850472d0$8f0d5870$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.

There's no way I or anyone else could have known that as you said nothing
more than "Seed the border area with claymore mines".  In fact, even now, it
comes off as backpeddling and/or blameshifting.  I shouldn't have to
research your claims, but I did.  I didn't find anything for either Senator
Hutchison or Senator Cornyn indicating that was a suggestion they'd made.
It's the sort of claim that'd make for quite a bit of media fodder so if
they'd actually said that, it'd be online somewhere.  Now, maybe you're
referring a Texas State Senator, rather than a US Senator from Texas.  I
can't be bothered to go to that level of research for something that's your
responsibility to accurately attribute and cite.

Now, if you're referring to Tim Mullins, a GOP congressional nominee (not an
actual Senator yet, or ever), and not from Texas, but New Mexico, then
you're making a circular reference to the start of this thread, something
*I* posted.

If you're not talking about Tim Mullins, I'd love to read up on it, if you'd
be so kind as to name names, link to one or more news articles, etc. to
document that claim.

Jeff



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 16:13:21 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:13:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
	landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
In-Reply-To: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51@verizon.net>
References: <00e101cb0cd6$54cff2c0$fe6fd840$@com><01E5E2DA-5826-47FF-B527-570FEB3E1AE5@verizon.net><4C18767C.00000C.02324@DON-B2514E06367>
	<BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <571917C39DFB4AECB4B549FF91E00FAA@GeriPC>

And I often wonder: do they *know* they are doing this???
Do they forget that someone always seems to have them
on record, LOL?!  Or are they just insane?


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 1:40 PM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests 
landminesatUS-Mexicoborder

> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
> disorder they have on so many issues:
>
> CaseA:
> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>
> Case B:
> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>
> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>
>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>> just illegal immigrants.
>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>> themselves are not eligible.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>
>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>
>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>
>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>> radio
>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>> with
>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>> reports.
>>>
>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>> We could
>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>> so porous
>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>
>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>> general election in November,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>> think
>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>
>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>
>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>> immigration.html
>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>> anchor baby
>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>> question the
>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>> to an
>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>
>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>> U.S. Census.
>>>
>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Wed Jun 16 16:37:19 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" <edavie@verizon.net>'s message of Wed,
	16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
Message-ID: <16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Mr Ed wrote ...
I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
being utilized! If not, why not? 
I would think it would be the first thing considered! 
======
Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
never stop ringing.  

I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 16:56:46 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: "Ed Davie" <edavie@verizon.net>'s message of Wed,
	16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
	<16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <002f01cb0daf$952be1b0$bf83a510$@com>

Alan,

> From: Alan Domenghini
> 
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However,
> you must have a more or less a description of a suspect car,
> for if they put the just put out the description of the child,
> the phones would probably never stop ringing.

Yes, Oregon participates in the Amber Alert System.  Additionally, there is
specific criteria about the types of missing child situations that can
utilize the Amber Alert System.  Here's more info on that for those
interested.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AMBERALERT/program_criteria.shtml

> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

Speaking of milk cartons, here's a story on the first child posted on a milk
carton.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/13/grace.coldcase.patz/index.html

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 18:33:10 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:33:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
References: <16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4C197B53.000007.03504@DON-B2514E06367>

His pix is on posters at work, on the front and exit doors, in the break
room, and all three rest rooms.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Alan Domenghini
Date: 06/16/10 16:37:27
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
 
Mr Ed wrote ...
I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
being utilized! If not, why not?
I would think it would be the first thing considered!
======
Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
never stop ringing.
 
I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
 
~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 16 18:40:33 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:40:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
In-Reply-To: <1217274296-1276707001-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961796902-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <4C1146DB.00003C.02288@DON-B2514E06367><39BE6B90-94CE-4953-B792-438DCE575445@verizon.net><4C15DB0C.000010.03496@DON-B2514E06367><025201cb0b9e$19a56880$4cf03980$@com><4C165E55.00000E.03248@DON-B2514E06367><033201cb0be8$14703fd0$3d50bf70$@com><4C167417.000033.03248@DON-B2514E06367><035501cb0bf4$a842b1a0$f8c814e0$@com><4C1683C4.000046.03248@DON-B2514E06367><037301cb0bfe$95f6f6a0$c1e4e3e0$@com><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BA564@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C173D56.00000B.00996@DON-B2514E06367><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E26BAA0B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><97BCECE16B244C37AD1DC55408D1C7B9@GeriPC><4C17BF42.00001B.02276@DON-B2514E06367><CC27D779-C023-4CBE-B8BE-6A3F8809FA3A@verizon.net><4C17C8AD.000037.02276@DON-B2514E06367><2BEBE599-1B0F-4BDF-847C-B3703F0ADCE6@verizon.net><4C181B9B.902@gmail.com><2061323712-1276649271-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2047296738-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4C187B6D.000012.02324@DON-B2514E06367><347FB73A-78FD-4EB9-A
	18B-4F849DCDE4B0@
	verizon.net><000901cb0d65$e59b0170$b0d10450$@net><F067ACCD-0FEF-4C23-B940-7E85EE6A16A1@teleport.com>
	<1217274296-1276707001-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-961796902-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <E20176F1-7457-4765-970E-B47390EE4267@teleport.com>


On Jun 16, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Steve wrote:

> Thank you walt for the well though out post. Such information is  
> always helpful in a discussion. It follows in the line of your  
> other great posts i Have read and replied.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:51:46
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>
> All red herrings. I was in a union for years, and none are true.
> WW
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Steven wrote:
>
>> If you have union support. You do risk your health insurance and
>> pension.

If you have union support, you are in a better position to push for  
health insurance and pensions. Most employers don't offer these out  
of the goodness of their hearts. Conversely, some unions offer  
insurance pools and some offer pensions for retired members. In  
contract negotiations, unions are negotiating for their members'  
benefit. The employer is interested only in the bottom line. He may,  
in fact, try to cut the company's benefits in exchange for a modest  
wage increase. That's where the real danger of losing company pension  
and insurance comes in.

>> If you have a union grievance, you then need to go through the proper
>> prceedure.

Well, duh! That's what the union is for! If you have a "grievance,"  
that's the term describing unfair treatment by your employer. Your  
shop steward contacts the employer directly with your concerns, and  
points out where (or if) your treatment contravenes the labor  
contract. If he doesn't want to be hit with an NLRB complaint and  
possible investigation, the employer resolves the problem. And, if  
the company starts legal proceedings against you, the union will  
provide legal assistance for you. Conversely, if you have a beef with  
the union itself, you bring it up either to the shop steward, the  
local union rep., or the full membership at the next union meeting.  
And, if you just can't STAND to be represented by a union, then you  
can resign your membership, and confidently try to deal with your  
employer as "equal to equal." Rots a ruck on that one!

>> If you just quit, you may be out of the union as well.

Depends on the union, and if you want to leave it. If you're a member  
of, say, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (my old  
union), you just move on to another job and transfer your union  
membership to another local. Conversely, if you're a devoted  
capitalist wannabe who has been forced (presumably at gunpoint) into  
the Amalgamated Union of Doily-Pressers and Hemstitchers, then, yes,  
They might eject you in a fit of pique if you quit the job. Or then  
again, maybe you could transfer to another local of the good old  
AUDP&H if you took up doily-pressing in another town.

The point is, unions don't run the company. They merely allow workers  
to negotiate with management from a position of strength, rather than  
as powerless individuals in the age-old, servile "master and servant"  
relationship that has obtained since the Stone Age.
WW

Despite the unending drumbeat of propaganda against labor unions that  
has been fostered by the corporations and the Repubs for the past 50  
or 60 years, without unions we would still be working 10-hour days  
and sometimes six-day weeks,  with no job security and no rights any  
employer was obliged to recognize.WW
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Katie Allnutt
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:36 AM
>>> To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>
>>> Union members are free to quit their jobs anytime they wish. No ties
>>> to bind you if you want to leave.
>>>
>>> : )
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:21 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually tieing you to union ruled employment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Steve
>>>>
>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 5:48:02 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We will be tying health care to employment. This ties one to a job.
>>>> A big
>>>> mortgage on an home that is worth much less will tie you to a
>>>> location and
>>>> limited employment opportunities. Paying someone at a level that
>>>> they live
>>>> off welfare is akin to slavery.
>>>>
>>>> Also, there were slave bosses.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From: Adam Mayer <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:32:27
>>>>
>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have a disagreement with your comparison of workers and slaves.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a difference between a slave and an employee.  I don't
>>>> like the
>>>>
>>>> work, the CEO, whatever, I can quit.  If I am a slave I can't quit.
>>>>
>>>> Also the CEO/owner is the one who is responsible for everything.
>>> They
>>>>
>>>> are usually the ones making the investments, managing the business,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> paying the workers.  They take more risk and therefore make more
>>>>
>>>> profits.  What happens if the workers don't do their job?  The
>>> manager
>>>>
>>>> will be held responsible.  What if the employee doesn't know how to
>>> do
>>>>
>>>> something on their job?  The manager has to train them.  Management
>>> is
>>>>
>>>> not a fun position and is not a position where someone sits around
>>>> doing
>>>>
>>>> nothing.  If they are then they don't last for long.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Question....
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Who built the pyramids?  The slaves or the pyramid owners?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In the days before the civil war, when a rich land owner made his
>>>>
>>>>> slaves cut the trees, haul the wood, lay the bricks, dig the  
>>>>> holes,
>>>>
>>>>> plant and harvest the crops, etc. Who 'earned' what?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If  you are a manager or CEO or what ever and you have workers
>>>>
>>>>> working for  you  for minimum wage doing all the labor intensive
>>> work
>>>>
>>>>> and you just sit behind the desk, who 'earns' the profits for your
>>>>
>>>>> business? Where would you be if you didn't have the minimum wage
>>>>
>>>>> workers and you had to do all the labor yourself.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Put some numbers to a routine activity. 1 manager/boss and 8
>>>>> workers
>>>>
>>>>> on some job somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>> They each put in a day's worth of work. The laborers do the manual
>>>>
>>>>> labor and the boss supervises and collects the money.
>>>>
>>>>> Who 'earned' the profit on this venture?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If the boss makes enough profit to live handsomely and buy his own
>>>>
>>>>> health care, did he 'earn' it all by himself?
>>>>
>>>>> And just because he can get away with paying minimum wage because
>>>>
>>>>> there are so many people willing to work for minimum wage, does
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> mean that the workers are 'non earners' and thus don't deserve
>>> health
>>>>
>>>>> care?
>>>>
>>>>> That question is the crux of the conundrum we are facing as a
>>>>
>>>>> country.  If you work but can't afford health care are you thus  
>>>>> not
>>>>
>>>>> deserving of it?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We have Medicare for the elderly non earners, we have all  
>>>>> inclusive
>>>>
>>>>> ER care for the destitute (that we already pay for), we have
>>>>> charity
>>>>
>>>>> care of various forms for the poor but we don't have accessible
>>>>
>>>>> health care for the working poor, emphasis on the word working
>>> there.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Put another way, maybe the slaves built the buildings and the
>>> workers
>>>>
>>>>> of today are 'earning' more than they are getting.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Katie
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Another answer to Barbara Bush's question.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Take from the earners and give it to the non earners.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Put another way, mandate that earners pay for health care for non
>>>>
>>>>>> earners.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Are both suggestions the same?
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Date: 6/15/2010 11:03:27 AM
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: [Grovenet] On Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Barbara Bush says it is a good thing that Obama care passed and
>>>>>> she
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> asks why it is that rich people get good health care and poor
>>> people
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> don't.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> And she said it on Fox news!!!
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> So if it is on Fox news then it is a good thing that Obama care
>>>>
>>>>>> passed!
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl2570
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Katie
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________
>>>>>> __
>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>
>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>>
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>>>
>>> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>_________________ 
>>> _
>>> _
>>>> ____________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 18:48:56 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:48:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16327-4C19602F-272@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <B057C06F564D478E895D6E5F062790CD@EdDaviePC>

I thought it was national!
Ed



From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:37 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......


Mr Ed wrote ...
I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
being utilized! If not, why not? 
I would think it would be the first thing considered! 
======
Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
never stop ringing.  

I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 19:04:40 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:04:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
Message-ID: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>



This is for members like Jeff and Jim who feel they have a monopoly on the
truth, and everyone else is 

wrong and and should be shouted down and buried under mountains of
egotistical alphabet soup.


If these comments offend your sensibilities, be consoled that millions of
citizens do not agree with you.

If you feel a tingle go down your leg when you see Obama on TV, you may be
infected with Obama 

Tingleitus. See your doctor quick.

If you feel you get a fair shake on this list, just click the rest of these
messages from Americans off.

Don 




8 hours ago 
Did everyone see the speech last night? What a joke. Obama really thought he
would be on top of 

The world this morning with people sympathizing with his efforts and
praising his insight.

Sorry Obummer.

The polls show 89% of the people thought his speech bombed. Most claimed it
was another chance 

For him to promote the Cap & Trade tax and use the attention for PR press.

Obviously, America is fed up with his lies, his utter incompetence, his
delegating problems to 

Others, and his gross dereliction of duty. Not to mention outrageous
spending.

Hey, our legal eagles out there, is dereliction of duty grounds for
impeachment? Obama is 

Certainly guilty of that, from the oil spill to securing our borders.
 

 
   
 Permalink Reply by Laurana Francavilla 10 hours ago 
In my opinion, Obama has done several things that would justify "impeachment
 but no one listens 

To me thats for darn sure.....
 

    
 Permalink Reply by Sue Rich 9 hours ago 
List them, Laurana. Then maybe we can do something. America can't afford
another year-and-a-half 

Of Obamanomics.
 

 
   
 Permalink Reply by Laurana Francavilla 3 hours ago 
Voter fraud; circumventing the Constitution by NOT producing a valid birth
certificate...(if he 

Has one, simply produce it!); all of the conniving and fraud and kickbacks
involved in getting 

The healthcare bill passed; direliction of duty....I am sure I can come up
with more but right 

Now I am leaving for a bike ride.
 

    
 Permalink Reply by Judy Lyford 7 hours ago 
Did anyone notice the way O blessed and prayed to God? This is after letting
the Muslims know he 

Is one of them and always on their side.
 

    
 Permalink Reply by Diana Beall 5 hours ago 
It's all an act put on to fool us all. We HAVE to get these liberal crazys
OUT!!! Now I heard 

That in New York somewhere they are going to let Hispanics vote more than
once ...something like 

6 times becuse they're the minority and it needs to be mor e fair? Something
like that ...Rush 

Was talking about it on the radio today. This is REALLY scary. I mean I have
nothing againt the 

Hispanic vote ...as long as it's legal , for that matter ALL votes should be
legal, but to let 

Them have 6 votes?
 


    
 Permalink Reply by Sue Rich 44 minutes ago 
What a crock. I'm sending Laurana's list to the 'Impeach Obama' site. We've
got to get him out of 

Here. Besides everything else, he is vigorously alienating nearly every one
of our allies. By 

Mistake? Or intent?

I'm pretty sure it isn't a mistake.

VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS
IMPEACH OBAMA
http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com
 

 
 
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From steelem at pacificu.edu  Wed Jun 16 20:21:52 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:21:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet]
	Republican	candidate	suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A7BA@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Facts?  Facts?  What facts?  Don't they just get in the way?

I have always liked Samuel Beckett's line:  "You can't keep a good, dead mind down."

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: June 16, 2010 3:23 PM
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican      candidate       suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder


On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>

You are such a hoot Don.

Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a
link to his source material.

It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was
from from NM, not Texas.

In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original  post:

 From Jeff:
N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET

Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
effective way to secure the border.

Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 20:59:30 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:59:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <A044B677-A438-4AA3-803B-4411869917BB@verizon.net>

Alan,

My questions would start differently.  I heard that his project had something to do with frogs.  So, I ask, did it have live frogs in it?  Was he taking a frog out to be returned to nature?  Did he go to find frogs and become disoriented or fall?  If he left on a "frog quest" did someone interact with him on a road or path?  Did someone familiar with the science projects, approach him with an offer to find frogs?

In cases like this, a photo surveillance system would be very helpful.  Because we are afraid of "big brother" we don't have them.

David

On Jun 16, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> 
> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be scrutinised.
> ...
> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74 hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then again, it's only a gut instinct.
> 
> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 21:27:37 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:27:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
References: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<A044B677-A438-4AA3-803B-4411869917BB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C19A431.00002D.03504@DON-B2514E06367>

Knowing what his project was, good followup thinking.

It would be fortunate if an off school grounds security camera could yield
clues to what cars came and left during the science project show.

I assume the police thought of that right away. Even other cameras on that
same road could yield a clue like to whom does that black car belong to. 

It isn't a staff car. Let's check that license plate out. 
 
Never know where the best clue will come from.

Don 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/16/2010 9:00:43 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
 
Alan,
 
My questions would start differently.  I heard that his project had
something to do with frogs.  So, I ask, did it have live frogs in it?  Was
he taking a frog out to be returned to nature?  Did he go to find frogs and
become disoriented or fall?  If he left on a "frog quest" did someone
interact with him on a road or path?  Did someone familiar with the science
projects, approach him with an offer to find frogs?
 
In cases like this, a photo surveillance system would be very helpful. 
Because we are afraid of "big brother" we don't have them.
 
David
 
On Jun 16, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:
 
>
> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even had
the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be scrutinised.
> ...
> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
again, it's only a gut instinct.
>
> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 21:43:51 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:43:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Why is Obamacare Unconstitutional?
In-Reply-To: <4C19047B.00000D.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C19047B.00000D.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <D22E46ED-5338-429C-B991-B0770C5AE5E0@verizon.net>

The question of whether the government should be allowed to run a corporation was raised by the founding fathers in the Constitutional Convention in their discussion of a National Bank.  They did not agree.  

Because of the disagreement, there was no way that they could include anything in the Constitution on the subject of federal ownership of corporations beyond just payment when acquiring property.  Because there is nothing in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights concerning corporate rights, any claim for rights would represent a REVISION of the Constitution.

There has never been any limits on the ability of the Federal government to buy and sell land, gold or other hard assets, e.g. the Louisiana Purchase.  The government has always owned and operated manufacturing facilities (arsenal & ship yards), e.g. the opening action of the American Civil war was the seizure of the Charleston Arsenal (gun and ammunition manufacture) for use against Fort Sumter.  The government has owned and operated military hospitals since 1812, and Army and Navy surgeons have offered federally funded medical care since the Revolutionary War.

The concept that the federal government does not have the authority to own or operate a health care system is based upon a personal belief system that is not in concert with history.

David

On Jun 16, 2010, at 10:06 AM, donkelly wrote:

> What do you folks think of this; is it constitutional or unconstitutional:
> 
> ...
> The government should not take over any private enterprise, except in time of national emergency, like a war, and to promptly return control the private enterprises seized to the owners when the emergency is over.
> 
> It seems clear that the government, to defend America, would have to take a measure of control, like security, over enterprises like railroads, vehicle factories, aircraft factories, munitions factories, to make sure that the emergency is not permanent.
> 
> Our government has taken over health care, and is dictating how to run companies associated with health care. There was no national emergency that would give the government reason to take over.
> 
> The government should immediately return these assets to their owners, and stop dictating actions to American citizens not supported by the constitution. The good things can be accomplished very well, by market requirements, without operating under a virtual dictatorship.
> 
> Two cents worth done. What are your opinions.
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 16 21:56:22 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:56:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
In-Reply-To: <4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <16324-4C18E41A-203@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C1913A6.00001E.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <ECC6783C-CE7A-41B8-AB18-90B024FD7E0C@verizon.net>

Don,

You didn't say everyone should honor the flag and the national anthem.  You said every one had to do it in the fashion YOU approve, and those who differ - HATE the this country.

Accusing people of hating this country, just because you disagree with their political choices, is one way to start a pissing match.  

You are not a blushing, doe-eyed, innocent bystander, who makes random, neutral, comments upon the world, and then wonders "what is all the fuss?"  You have an agenda, and you use sharp and cutting statements, even when they are unwarranted.

David

On Jun 16, 2010, at 11:10 AM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> All one has to say is, "I honor the flag and the national anthem and the constitution, and every American should do the same", and that should not start a pissing match, but it does. So go figure.
> 
> Don scratching his well worn and thinning hair. 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 22:24:28 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:24:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> This is for members like Jeff and Jim who feel
> they have a monopoly on the truth, and everyone
> else is wrong and and should be shouted down
> and buried under mountains of egotistical alphabet
> soup.

I can't and won't speak for Jim, but I personally do not feel that I have a
monopoly on the truth.  Further, I don't feel that everyone else is wrong,
nor do I feel that anyone that is wrong should be shouted down and buried
under mountains of egotistical alphabet soup, whatever that is.

I don't respond to your claims with my own hare-brained ideas.  I do what
anyone else, yourself included, could do and that's go research the details
of those very claims.  I don't own the truth as it has no owner.  I merely
seek it out and when I do it rarely looks like what you present it to be.
The reality of the whole thing is that I usually only have issue with the
things a very few members of this list say.  That's hardly the "everyone
else" that you suggest.

> If these comments offend your sensibilities, be
> consoled that millions of citizens do not agree
> with you.

And we're back to the appeal to population logical fallacy again.  You must
mistakenly think I'm here for a popularity contest.  I'm here because I'm a
member of the community and wish to be involved with other members of the
community.  If in the process others agree with me or find me generally
acceptable, that's a bonus, but it's not my motivation.  Conversely, if
others in the process disagree with me and maybe even find me off-putting,
well maybe we just don't agreeable personalities.  It happens.  However, I
hope they'll at least respect me for having a position and backing it up
with conviction and good research.

> If you feel you get a fair shake on this list, just click
> the rest of these messages from Americans off.

I read the comments and am not even going to justify any of that nonsense
with a response.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 16 22:57:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:57:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>

Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.

Don 

 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 10:24:51 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> This is for members like Jeff and Jim who feel
> they have a monopoly on the truth, and everyone
> else is wrong and and should be shouted down
> and buried under mountains of egotistical alphabet
> soup.
 
I can't and won't speak for Jim, but I personally do not feel that I have a
monopoly on the truth.  Further, I don't feel that everyone else is wrong,
nor do I feel that anyone that is wrong should be shouted down and buried
under mountains of egotistical alphabet soup, whatever that is.
 
I don't respond to your claims with my own hare-brained ideas.  I do what
anyone else, yourself included, could do and that's go research the details
of those very claims.  I don't own the truth as it has no owner.  I merely
seek it out and when I do it rarely looks like what you present it to be.
The reality of the whole thing is that I usually only have issue with the
things a very few members of this list say.  That's hardly the "everyone
else" that you suggest.
 
> If these comments offend your sensibilities, be
> consoled that millions of citizens do not agree
> with you.
 
And we're back to the appeal to population logical fallacy again.  You must
mistakenly think I'm here for a popularity contest.  I'm here because I'm a
member of the community and wish to be involved with other members of the
community.  If in the process others agree with me or find me generally
acceptable, that's a bonus, but it's not my motivation.  Conversely, if
others in the process disagree with me and maybe even find me off-putting,
well maybe we just don't agreeable personalities.  It happens.  However, I
hope they'll at least respect me for having a position and backing it up
with conviction and good research.
 
> If you feel you get a fair shake on this list, just click
> the rest of these messages from Americans off.
 
I read the comments and am not even going to justify any of that nonsense
with a response.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 16 22:59:33 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:59:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimM8VhrOrZx25oaAdtSdDG3bFGyFDGiVabSltTz@mail.gmail.com>

No, I'm afraid it's you don who feels he has a monopoly on the truth. It is
YOU who continually tells us that WE are wrong. And yes, you offend my
sensibilities. Anyone with a brain and a conscience would be.

You did not let us down with your response, however. Like I said earlier,
when you are put on the spot regarding your opinions and your sources, you
strike back with the only thing you know, a new installment of the same
mind-numbing garbage as the last time, hoping, I suppose you'll bury us in
the shear volume of it.

I'm sure you're a hero to some out there who feel it's a sacred duty to
rabble-rouse, and stir up Progressives. I'm sure you wear your badge of
courage on your Rightist lists. And as for the millions you talk about who
are behind you, you may be right, there may be many of you, but you're still
the fringe and you will remain the fringe, because the truth will keep you
there. As long as you use lies and half truths to spirit your agenda, you
will remain in political limbo, angry and clueless, impotent and despised.

jimz





On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 7:04 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
> This is for members like Jeff and Jim who feel they have a monopoly on the
> truth, and everyone else is
>
> wrong and and should be shouted down and buried under mountains of
> egotistical alphabet soup.
>
>
> If these comments offend your sensibilities, be consoled that millions of
> citizens do not agree with you.
>
> If you feel a tingle go down your leg when you see Obama on TV, you may be
> infected with Obama
>
> Tingleitus. See your doctor quick.
>
> If you feel you get a fair shake on this list, just click the rest of these
> messages from Americans off.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> 8 hours ago
> Did everyone see the speech last night? What a joke. Obama really thought
> he
> would be on top of
>
> The world this morning with people sympathizing with his efforts and
> praising his insight.
>
> Sorry Obummer.
>
> The polls show 89% of the people thought his speech bombed. Most claimed it
> was another chance
>
> For him to promote the Cap & Trade tax and use the attention for PR press.
>
> Obviously, America is fed up with his lies, his utter incompetence, his
> delegating problems to
>
> Others, and his gross dereliction of duty. Not to mention outrageous
> spending.
>
> Hey, our legal eagles out there, is dereliction of duty grounds for
> impeachment? Obama is
>
> Certainly guilty of that, from the oil spill to securing our borders.
>
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Laurana Francavilla 10 hours ago
> In my opinion, Obama has done several things that would justify
> "impeachment
>  but no one listens
>
> To me thats for darn sure.....
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Sue Rich 9 hours ago
> List them, Laurana. Then maybe we can do something. America can't afford
> another year-and-a-half
>
> Of Obamanomics.
>
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Laurana Francavilla 3 hours ago
> Voter fraud; circumventing the Constitution by NOT producing a valid birth
> certificate...(if he
>
> Has one, simply produce it!); all of the conniving and fraud and kickbacks
> involved in getting
>
> The healthcare bill passed; direliction of duty....I am sure I can come up
> with more but right
>
> Now I am leaving for a bike ride.
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Judy Lyford 7 hours ago
> Did anyone notice the way O blessed and prayed to God? This is after
> letting
> the Muslims know he
>
> Is one of them and always on their side.
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Diana Beall 5 hours ago
> It's all an act put on to fool us all. We HAVE to get these liberal crazys
> OUT!!! Now I heard
>
> That in New York somewhere they are going to let Hispanics vote more than
> once ...something like
>
> 6 times becuse they're the minority and it needs to be mor e fair?
> Something
> like that ...Rush
>
> Was talking about it on the radio today. This is REALLY scary. I mean I
> have
> nothing againt the
>
> Hispanic vote ...as long as it's legal , for that matter ALL votes should
> be
> legal, but to let
>
> Them have 6 votes?
>
>
>
>
>  Permalink Reply by Sue Rich 44 minutes ago
> What a crock. I'm sending Laurana's list to the 'Impeach Obama' site. We've
> got to get him out of
>
> Here. Besides everything else, he is vigorously alienating nearly every one
> of our allies. By
>
> Mistake? Or intent?
>
> I'm pretty sure it isn't a mistake.
>
> VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS
> IMPEACH OBAMA
> http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 16 23:38:52 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:38:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.

What reasons would those be?

If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of us a
favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe rhetoric to the
lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member of the
community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time putting your
posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your homework and
posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.

Thank you,

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 00:55:14 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:55:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>

OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In case others
are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my work. All
together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing with
genealogy or history. 

This was started last month and will be under construction for another month
or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/ 

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/

Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content. 
 
Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
 
What reasons would those be?
 
If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of us a
favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe rhetoric to the
lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member of the
community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time putting your
posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your homework and
posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
 
Thank you,
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From theresacus at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 05:28:53 2010
From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:28:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2524.1276738404.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?Forest Grove Music in the Park is back
This Sunday, June 20th?is the first event.? 
?
1-2 PM Open Mic - Early sign-ups at theresacus at yahoo.com??
It's starting to fill so sign up if you want to play.? 
I go to the park at 8AM so all requests after that have to be done at the park. 

2-4 PM Featured Artist - Han's and Keith 
They have been playing music for the senior center for some time now and they are adored there. Han's is a 86 year old accordian player who is well ...Hans. Keith is well practiced guitar player?most are familiar to in the community as the sing-a-long musician.??Plan on a lot of hand clapping and foot stomping because it will have a traditional German flair.? Great Father's Day family event.? 
?
4-6 Jam - bring your instruments, voice and song.? 

--- On Wed, 6/16/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com> wrote:


From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 6:33 PM


Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
??? grovenet at rdrop.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."


Today's Topics:

???1. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
???2. Re: A New Subject...... (Ed Davie)
???3. New subject (Steele, Mike)
???4. Re: Republican candidate suggests??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (donkelly)
???5. Re: Republican candidate suggests landmines??? atUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (Katie Allnutt)
???6. Re: Republican candidate suggests??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (Jeff Howden)
???7. Re: New subject (donkelly)
???8. Re: New subject (Jeff Howden)
???9. Re: Republican candidate??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (donkelly)
? 10. Re: New subject (Jim Zaleski)
? 11. Re: Republican??? candidate??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (Katie Allnutt)
? 12. Re: Republican candidate??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (Jeff Howden)
? 13. Re: Republican candidate suggests??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
? ? ? (Geri Steele)
? 14. Re: A New Subject...... (Alan Domenghini)
? 15. Re: A New Subject...... (Jeff Howden)
? 16. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:59:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
To: <nospam03 at comcast.net>,??? "Forest Grove local interests list"
??? <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C191F2C.000026.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

One thing Alan would do first is talk to the teacher and kids who were at
the science project. Did his project not win as best? Could he have been
upset and wander off in that state of mind?

If he wandered off, where would he likely go?

And yes, the teacher when discovering he was missing from the group, should
have made an effort to find him, send boys to the restroom to see if he was
there, or in the cafeteria, or in a closet crying?

Don 




-------Original Message-------

From: Steve
Date: 6/16/2010 10:14:01 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......

How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher
assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the gym. The
teacher who blew this off and marked him absent.
Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no discord
there.
This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off somewhere
safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All evidence points
to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project With his
class.
-----Original Message-----
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......

I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
say...

My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.? Please
Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.

In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.? First I
would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
criminal case.
In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
scrutinised.

As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.? Kyron has
two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
members.

In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.???But then
again, it's only a gut instinct.



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <0DC895119D95408E98DEDF0D22673693 at EdDaviePC>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1"

I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert" being utilized!
If not, why not? 
I would think it would be the first thing considered!
Ed


From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:56 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:38:37 -0700
From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID:
??? <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE at everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The Authoritarian.? Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist perspectives.? For a brief introduction, see:

www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content

--Mike 




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:41:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,??? "Forest Grove local interests list"
??? <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny. 

The ultimate harm would come to animals and innocent people.

That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same in some cases) would not
be stupid enough to walk into a deployed claymore ordinance.

Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or unmanned aircraft
quickly on the scene, would seem to make more sense. 

Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border and alert
personnel of intruders. 

But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there, and hopefully some
would be willing to help protect their homes and families. 

That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent from harm.

It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and escorting a group
of mules, followed by another guy carrying an AK47. 

In which case terminate with extreme prejudice.............meaning, spoil
their day.

Likely the mules will drop their packs and beat feet for home.

Don



-------Original Message-------

From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 11:48:56 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
landminesatUS-Mexicoborder

Don,

> From: donkelly
>
> Seed the border area with claymore mines.

I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or that you're
joking and think that's actually funny.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:40:18 -0700
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
??? atUS-Mexicoborder
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,??? Forest Grove local interests
??? list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
??? format=flowed

One reason I never support republicans is the split personality? 
disorder they have on so many issues:

CaseA:
Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.

Case B:
Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an? 
anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.

And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.

Katie

On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Katie Allnutt
> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;? Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
> atUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
> just illegal immigrants.
> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
> themselves are not eligible.
>
> Katie
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>
>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>> effective way to secure the border.
>>
>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>> radio
>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>> with
>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>> reports.
>>
>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>> We could
>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>> so porous
>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>
>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>> general election in November,
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>> mullins-new-
>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>> think
>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>
>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>
>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>> immigration.html
>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>> anchor baby
>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>> question the
>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.? 
>> to an
>> illegal immigrant.)
>>
>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>> 35000.html> 2008
>> U.S. Census.
>>
>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet





------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:50:54 -0700
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii"

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.

What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
serious or funny?? What other possible reasons could there be for making
such a preposterous suggestion?

> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
> innocent people.
> 
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
> into a deployed claymore ordinance.

Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.

I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.? If not, then you've missed
out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.? Yes, I
realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country illegally,
but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.

Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more expensive
the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
border).? By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
industry.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021

KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - he
said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that they
catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 300
bucks a pop.

CONAN: Ted Robbins?

ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. There
have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened is
the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be that
way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and subject
to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
wherever.

> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
> make more sense.

The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.? That's lot of ground to cover with
motion detectors.

With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
1,200 miles to outfit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border

Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.? So they'd all
have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.? However, some
animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't filter
them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
movement.? The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is to
pair cameras with the detectors.? Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.

For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.? Guessing you
could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
somewhere around 16,000 cameras.? Once these are all installed you've got to
come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
to a central processing location -- no small feat.? Once at the central
processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power to
monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
crossing attempt, etc.

For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more than
every 25 miles.? Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts per
day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs for
all of them.? Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
minutes, at best.

Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.? Even
without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
sophisticated hardware).? Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
numbers go up drastically.

> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
> and alert personnel of intruders.

Drastic, and expensive.

> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
> homes and families.

Murder is still murder.

> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
> from harm.

People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.? Drug mules
crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.? Their 2 or 3
handlers maybe are, but not the mules.? For them it's just a job.

> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
> carrying an AK47.

Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
illicit drugs.? When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.

Jeff




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C193B46.000053.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Brief?

That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by developing
various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.

We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
data that swirls endlessly around us.

As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative to
what they actually said they would do.

One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media. 

That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug point,
is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is another
signal. 

Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they don't
care. 

They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history, life
or death of traditions, will stop them. 

They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
reality.???

And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of going
too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal consequences.

Thank you Mike

Don




-------Original Message-------

From: Steele, Mike
Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] New subject

Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
Authoritarian.? Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but
expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
perspectives.? For a brief introduction, see:

www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content

--Mike


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:22 -0700
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <01fa01cb0d98$9eb4a4e0$dc1deea0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii"

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note
> what someone said, and on the other side of the scale
> note what the person actually did relative to what
> they actually said they would do.

This only works if we know all the facts involved and are willing to include
all the facts involved in our assessment of the situation.? Without that and
the emotional integrity to not try to make the facts arrive at a conclusion
we've already drawn, we inevitably going to be incorrect in our conclusion
except by the rare chance that our initial conclusion was correct to begin
with.

> One need not have a difficult time, even without
> professional level credentials, to detect a
> Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure
> through visual media.
> 
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a
> particularly smug point, is one signal. Promise
> everything and give as little as possible, is another
> signal.

Making judgments like that work in a vacuum where the one making the
judgments isn't bringing their own emotional baggage into the judgment
process.? However, none of us operate within a vacuum or without baggage.
So, we're all going to see the situation/motive/outcome a little
differently.? Additionally, us humans have a silly, but useful/necessary
propensity to make things up to fill the gaps in our knowledge.? So, when
casting judgment and we run into something that doesn't make sense and/or
can't be explained, we ignore it, twist it, or make up our own explanations
that may or may not fly in the face of actual facts in the situation that no
one disputes.

Alan can probably attest to this with crimes and witness testimony, some of
it no doubt contradictory, even though they contain elements of similarity.
Who's testimony is wrong?? Who's view of the situation is wrong?

Jeff




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:12:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,??? "Forest Grove local interests list"
??? <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C194C57.000065.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas. 




-------Original Message-------

From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/16/2010 1:57:20 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.

What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
serious or funny?? What other possible reasons could there be for making
such a preposterous suggestion?

> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
> innocent people.
>
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
> into a deployed claymore ordinance.

Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.

I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.? If not, then you've missed
out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.? Yes, I
realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country illegally,
but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.

Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more expensive
the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
border).? By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
industry.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021

KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - he
said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that they
catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 300
bucks a pop.

CONAN: Ted Robbins?

ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. There
have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened is
the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be that
way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and subject
to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
wherever.

> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
> make more sense.

The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.? That's lot of ground to cover with
motion detectors.

With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
1,200 miles to outfit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border

Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.? So they'd all
have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.? However, some
animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't filter
them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
movement.? The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is to
pair cameras with the detectors.? Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.

For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.? Guessing you
could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
somewhere around 16,000 cameras.? Once these are all installed you've got to
come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
to a central processing location -- no small feat.? Once at the central
processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power to
monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
crossing attempt, etc.

For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more than
every 25 miles.? Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts per
day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs for
all of them.? Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
minutes, at best.

Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.? Even
without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
sophisticated hardware).? Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
numbers go up drastically.

> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
> and alert personnel of intruders.

Drastic, and expensive.

> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
> homes and families.

Murder is still murder.

> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
> from harm.

People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.? Drug mules
crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.? Their 2 or 3
handlers maybe are, but not the mules.? For them it's just a job.

> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
> carrying an AK47.

Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
illicit drugs.? When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:18:25 -0700
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,??? Forest Grove local interests
??? list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID:
??? <AANLkTiks-uigkg5MPD7TWXb7xksBJZ-nScVPKJ7Ea_Dv at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

To the list,

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think Don has finally managed to
describe himself with some honestly. What he's written fits him to a Tee.
Freudian slip? Perhaps, but I think he must have been looking in the mirror
for inspiration when he wrote this one.

jimz

PS: My comments are below.


On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:59 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> Brief?
>
> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
> developing
> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>
> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>

Yes, conjecture, paranoid, conspiratorial mind-play, rumor mongering, fear
mongering, lying, intentional falsification of evidence to skew the truth
and cast doubt, and on and on.

>
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative
> to
> what they actually said they would do.
>
> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>

Yes, you should be able to *detect a Narcissistic personality* every time
you look in the mirror.

>
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug point,
> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
> another
> signal.
>

Boy, you describe yourself well here. You promise everything, but rarely
deliver. And altho we can't see you do it, your sharp jabs and snide
comments certainly amount to an aloof and smug personality.

>
> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they
> don't

care.
>

That's spot on Don, *You* don't care what others think, and ultimately, your
behavior speaks for itself. You just don't care.

>
> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history,
> life
> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>

Yes, *You* do whatever you want to do, despite the multitude of evidence
offered up to counter your biased drivel. And yes again, *nothing, truth or
fiction in history, life or death of traditions will stop* you. You have
become as annoying as a gnat, no amount of swatting seems able to make you
go away.

>
> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
> reality.
>

*You* seem to live by this credo. You constantly try to shape reality to
your view, regardless of how outrageous and preposterous your claims. You
snub your nose at the truth and then expect us to respect you. That in
itself is a distortion of reality.

>
> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of going
> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
> consequences.
>

This is no surprise, you never go into detail on anything. And the extremist
views you've spewed are indeed dangerous. You are a prime example of a
clueless, jabbering mouthpiece whose words have the potential of leading to
fatal consequences. Your constant berating of Obama is one such example. You
like to incite and then walk away. You have done nothing to establish honest
dialogue on this list, all I ever see are attempts to rattle the opposition.
You take sick pride in stirring things up.

And finally. Thanks for exposing yourself to us all. No one else could have
done a better job!

>
> Thank you Mike
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steele, Mike
> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.? Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, but
> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
> perspectives.? For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:23:42 -0700
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican??? candidate
??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,??? Forest Grove local interests
??? list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <3FF431B2-436F-480B-A8EA-65C0FFA4DC8E at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>

You are such a hoot Don.

Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a? 
link to his source material.

It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was? 
from from NM, not Texas.

In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original? post:

>From Jeff:
N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET

Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
effective way to secure the border.

Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:37:31 -0700
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
??? suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <001001cb0da4$850472d0$8f0d5870$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii"

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.

There's no way I or anyone else could have known that as you said nothing
more than "Seed the border area with claymore mines".? In fact, even now, it
comes off as backpeddling and/or blameshifting.? I shouldn't have to
research your claims, but I did.? I didn't find anything for either Senator
Hutchison or Senator Cornyn indicating that was a suggestion they'd made.
It's the sort of claim that'd make for quite a bit of media fodder so if
they'd actually said that, it'd be online somewhere.? Now, maybe you're
referring a Texas State Senator, rather than a US Senator from Texas.? I
can't be bothered to go to that level of research for something that's your
responsibility to accurately attribute and cite.

Now, if you're referring to Tim Mullins, a GOP congressional nominee (not an
actual Senator yet, or ever), and not from Texas, but New Mexico, then
you're making a circular reference to the start of this thread, something
*I* posted.

If you're not talking about Tim Mullins, I'd love to read up on it, if you'd
be so kind as to name names, link to one or more news articles, etc. to
document that claim.

Jeff




------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:13:21 -0700
From: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
??? landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <571917C39DFB4AECB4B549FF91E00FAA at GeriPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
??? reply-type=original

And I often wonder: do they *know* they are doing this???
Do they forget that someone always seems to have them
on record, LOL?!? Or are they just insane?


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 1:40 PM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests 
landminesatUS-Mexicoborder

> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
> disorder they have on so many issues:
>
> CaseA:
> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>
> Case B:
> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>
> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;? Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>
>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>> just illegal immigrants.
>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>> themselves are not eligible.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>
>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>
>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>
>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>> radio
>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>> with
>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>> reports.
>>>
>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>> We could
>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>> so porous
>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>
>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>> general election in November,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>> think
>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>
>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>
>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>> immigration.html
>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>> anchor baby
>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>> question the
>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>> to an
>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>
>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>> U.S. Census.
>>>
>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
To: grovenet at rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list)
Message-ID: <16327-4C19602F-272 at storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII

Mr Ed wrote ...
I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
being utilized! If not, why not? 
I would think it would be the first thing considered! 
======
Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..? However, you must
have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
never stop ringing.? 

I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0700
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <002f01cb0daf$952be1b0$bf83a510$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii"

Alan,

> From: Alan Domenghini
> 
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..? However,
> you must have a more or less a description of a suspect car,
> for if they put the just put out the description of the child,
> the phones would probably never stop ringing.

Yes, Oregon participates in the Amber Alert System.? Additionally, there is
specific criteria about the types of missing child situations that can
utilize the Amber Alert System.? Here's more info on that for those
interested.

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AMBERALERT/program_criteria.shtml

> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

Speaking of milk cartons, here's a story on the first child posted on a milk
carton.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/13/grace.coldcase.patz/index.html

Jeff




------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:33:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C197B53.000007.03504 at DON-B2514E06367>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

His pix is on posters at work, on the front and exit doors, in the break
room, and all three rest rooms.

Don 




-------Original Message-------

From: Alan Domenghini
Date: 06/16/10 16:37:27
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......

Mr Ed wrote ...
I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
being utilized! If not, why not?
I would think it would be the first thing considered!
======
Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..? However, you must
have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
never stop ringing.

I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..

~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
****************************************



      

From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 07:30:31 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:30:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
In-Reply-To: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C17C124755FC481BA1B13718E0DAFA9F@JeffVAIO>

Mom,

If you are interested in doing something this Sunday, it sounds like there 
will be fun concert with german music at Rogers Park....

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Theresa Carter" <theresacus at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:28 AM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>; "WCCHD" <wcchd at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!

>  Forest Grove Music in the Park is back
> This Sunday, June 20th is the first event.
>
> 1-2 PM Open Mic - Early sign-ups at theresacus at yahoo.com
> It's starting to fill so sign up if you want to play.
> I go to the park at 8AM so all requests after that have to be done at the 
> park.
>
> 2-4 PM Featured Artist - Han's and Keith
> They have been playing music for the senior center for some time now and 
> they are adored there. Han's is a 86 year old accordian player who is well 
> ...Hans. Keith is well practiced guitar player most are familiar to in the 
> community as the sing-a-long musician.  Plan on a lot of hand clapping and 
> foot stomping because it will have a traditional German flair.  Great 
> Father's Day family event.
>
> 4-6 Jam - bring your instruments, voice and song.
>
> --- On Wed, 6/16/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com 
> <grovenet-request at rdrop.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
> Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 6:33 PM
>
>
> Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
>     grovenet at rdrop.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     grovenet-request at rdrop.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     grovenet-owner at rdrop.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>    2. Re: A New Subject...... (Ed Davie)
>    3. New subject (Steele, Mike)
>    4. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>    5. Re: Republican candidate suggests landmines    atUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>    6. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>    7. Re: New subject (donkelly)
>    8. Re: New subject (Jeff Howden)
>    9. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>   10. Re: New subject (Jim Zaleski)
>   11. Re: Republican    candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>   12. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>   13. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Geri Steele)
>   14. Re: A New Subject...... (Alan Domenghini)
>   15. Re: A New Subject...... (Jeff Howden)
>   16. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:59:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: <nospam03 at comcast.net>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C191F2C.000026.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> One thing Alan would do first is talk to the teacher and kids who were at
> the science project. Did his project not win as best? Could he have been
> upset and wander off in that state of mind?
>
> If he wandered off, where would he likely go?
>
> And yes, the teacher when discovering he was missing from the group, 
> should
> have made an effort to find him, send boys to the restroom to see if he 
> was
> there, or in the cafeteria, or in a closet crying?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steve
> Date: 6/16/2010 10:14:01 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher
> assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the gym. 
> The
> teacher who blew this off and marked him absent.
> Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no 
> discord
> there.
> This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off somewhere
> safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All evidence 
> points
> to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project With his
> class.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
> say...
>
> My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
> Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
> enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
> It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.
>
> In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.  First I
> would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
> criminal case.
> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
> had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
> scrutinised.
>
> As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
> two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
> trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
> members.
>
> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
> hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
> again, it's only a gut instinct.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
> From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <0DC895119D95408E98DEDF0D22673693 at EdDaviePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert" 
> being utilized!
> If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> Ed
>
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:56 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:38:37 -0700
> From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE at everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The 
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, 
> but expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, 
> Zygmunt Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible 
> connections between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with 
> racist perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:41:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> The ultimate harm would come to animals and innocent people.
>
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same in some cases) would 
> not
> be stupid enough to walk into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or unmanned aircraft
> quickly on the scene, would seem to make more sense.
>
> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border and alert
> personnel of intruders.
>
> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there, and hopefully 
> some
> would be willing to help protect their homes and families.
>
> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent from harm.
>
> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and escorting a 
> group
> of mules, followed by another guy carrying an AK47.
>
> In which case terminate with extreme prejudice.............meaning, spoil
> their day.
>
> Likely the mules will drop their packs and beat feet for home.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:48:56 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or that 
> you're
> joking and think that's actually funny.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:40:18 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>     atUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
>     format=flowed
>
> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
> disorder they have on so many issues:
>
> CaseA:
> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>
> Case B:
> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>
> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>
>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>> just illegal immigrants.
>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>> themselves are not eligible.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>
>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>
>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>
>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>> radio
>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>> with
>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>> reports.
>>>
>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>> We could
>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>> so porous
>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>
>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>> general election in November,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>> think
>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>
>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>
>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>> immigration.html
>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>> anchor baby
>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>> question the
>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>> to an
>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>
>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>> U.S. Census.
>>>
>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:50:54 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've 
> missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country 
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more 
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - 
> he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that 
> they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 
> 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. 
> There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened 
> is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be 
> that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and 
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd 
> all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't 
> filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is 
> to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing 
> you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got 
> to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power 
> to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more 
> than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts 
> per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs 
> for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C193B46.000053.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Brief?
>
> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by 
> developing
> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>
> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative 
> to
> what they actually said they would do.
>
> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug 
> point,
> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is 
> another
> signal.
>
> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they 
> don't
> care.
>
> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history, 
> life
> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>
> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
> reality.
>
> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of 
> going
> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal 
> consequences.
>
> Thank you Mike
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steele, Mike
> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, 
> but
> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:22 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01fa01cb0d98$9eb4a4e0$dc1deea0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note
>> what someone said, and on the other side of the scale
>> note what the person actually did relative to what
>> they actually said they would do.
>
> This only works if we know all the facts involved and are willing to 
> include
> all the facts involved in our assessment of the situation.  Without that 
> and
> the emotional integrity to not try to make the facts arrive at a 
> conclusion
> we've already drawn, we inevitably going to be incorrect in our conclusion
> except by the rare chance that our initial conclusion was correct to begin
> with.
>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without
>> professional level credentials, to detect a
>> Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure
>> through visual media.
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a
>> particularly smug point, is one signal. Promise
>> everything and give as little as possible, is another
>> signal.
>
> Making judgments like that work in a vacuum where the one making the
> judgments isn't bringing their own emotional baggage into the judgment
> process.  However, none of us operate within a vacuum or without baggage.
> So, we're all going to see the situation/motive/outcome a little
> differently.  Additionally, us humans have a silly, but useful/necessary
> propensity to make things up to fill the gaps in our knowledge.  So, when
> casting judgment and we run into something that doesn't make sense and/or
> can't be explained, we ignore it, twist it, or make up our own 
> explanations
> that may or may not fly in the face of actual facts in the situation that 
> no
> one disputes.
>
> Alan can probably attest to this with crimes and witness testimony, some 
> of
> it no doubt contradictory, even though they contain elements of 
> similarity.
> Who's testimony is wrong?  Who's view of the situation is wrong?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:12:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C194C57.000065.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 1:57:20 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
> suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've 
> missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country 
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more 
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border - 
> he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that 
> they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about 
> 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat. 
> There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened 
> is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be 
> that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and 
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd 
> all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't 
> filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is 
> to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing 
> you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got 
> to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power 
> to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more 
> than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts 
> per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs 
> for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:18:25 -0700
> From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTiks-uigkg5MPD7TWXb7xksBJZ-nScVPKJ7Ea_Dv at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> To the list,
>
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I think Don has finally managed to
> describe himself with some honestly. What he's written fits him to a Tee.
> Freudian slip? Perhaps, but I think he must have been looking in the 
> mirror
> for inspiration when he wrote this one.
>
> jimz
>
> PS: My comments are below.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:59 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Brief?
>>
>> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
>> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
>> developing
>> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>>
>> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to 
>> synthesize
>> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>>
>
> Yes, conjecture, paranoid, conspiratorial mind-play, rumor mongering, fear
> mongering, lying, intentional falsification of evidence to skew the truth
> and cast doubt, and on and on.
>
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, 
>> and
>> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative
>> to
>> what they actually said they would do.
>>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
>> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>>
>
> Yes, you should be able to *detect a Narcissistic personality* every time
> you look in the mirror.
>
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug 
>> point,
>> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
>> another
>> signal.
>>
>
> Boy, you describe yourself well here. You promise everything, but rarely
> deliver. And altho we can't see you do it, your sharp jabs and snide
> comments certainly amount to an aloof and smug personality.
>
>>
>> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they
>> don't
>
> care.
>>
>
> That's spot on Don, *You* don't care what others think, and ultimately, 
> your
> behavior speaks for itself. You just don't care.
>
>>
>> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history,
>> life
>> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>>
>
> Yes, *You* do whatever you want to do, despite the multitude of evidence
> offered up to counter your biased drivel. And yes again, *nothing, truth 
> or
> fiction in history, life or death of traditions will stop* you. You have
> become as annoying as a gnat, no amount of swatting seems able to make you
> go away.
>
>>
>> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
>> reality.
>>
>
> *You* seem to live by this credo. You constantly try to shape reality to
> your view, regardless of how outrageous and preposterous your claims. You
> snub your nose at the truth and then expect us to respect you. That in
> itself is a distortion of reality.
>
>>
>> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of 
>> going
>> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
>> consequences.
>>
>
> This is no surprise, you never go into detail on anything. And the 
> extremist
> views you've spewed are indeed dangerous. You are a prime example of a
> clueless, jabbering mouthpiece whose words have the potential of leading 
> to
> fatal consequences. Your constant berating of Obama is one such example. 
> You
> like to incite and then walk away. You have done nothing to establish 
> honest
> dialogue on this list, all I ever see are attempts to rattle the 
> opposition.
> You take sick pride in stirring things up.
>
> And finally. Thanks for exposing yourself to us all. No one else could 
> have
> done a better job!
>
>>
>> Thank you Mike
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Steele, Mike
>> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>>
>> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
>> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno, 
>> but
>> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
>> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
>> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
>> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>>
>> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:23:42 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican    candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <3FF431B2-436F-480B-A8EA-65C0FFA4DC8E at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>>
>>
>
> You are such a hoot Don.
>
> Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a
> link to his source material.
>
> It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was
> from from NM, not Texas.
>
> In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original  post:
>
>>From Jeff:
> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>
> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
> effective way to secure the border.
>
> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:37:31 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <001001cb0da4$850472d0$8f0d5870$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
> There's no way I or anyone else could have known that as you said nothing
> more than "Seed the border area with claymore mines".  In fact, even now, 
> it
> comes off as backpeddling and/or blameshifting.  I shouldn't have to
> research your claims, but I did.  I didn't find anything for either 
> Senator
> Hutchison or Senator Cornyn indicating that was a suggestion they'd made.
> It's the sort of claim that'd make for quite a bit of media fodder so if
> they'd actually said that, it'd be online somewhere.  Now, maybe you're
> referring a Texas State Senator, rather than a US Senator from Texas.  I
> can't be bothered to go to that level of research for something that's 
> your
> responsibility to accurately attribute and cite.
>
> Now, if you're referring to Tim Mullins, a GOP congressional nominee (not 
> an
> actual Senator yet, or ever), and not from Texas, but New Mexico, then
> you're making a circular reference to the start of this thread, something
> *I* posted.
>
> If you're not talking about Tim Mullins, I'd love to read up on it, if 
> you'd
> be so kind as to name names, link to one or more news articles, etc. to
> document that claim.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:13:21 -0700
> From: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <571917C39DFB4AECB4B549FF91E00FAA at GeriPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>     reply-type=original
>
> And I often wonder: do they *know* they are doing this???
> Do they forget that someone always seems to have them
> on record, LOL?!  Or are they just insane?
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 1:40 PM
> To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests 
> list"
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
>> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
>> disorder they have on so many issues:
>>
>> CaseA:
>> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>>
>> Case B:
>> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
>> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>>
>> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>>
>>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>>> just illegal immigrants.
>>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>>> themselves are not eligible.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>>
>>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>>
>>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>>
>>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>>> radio
>>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>>> with
>>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>>> reports.
>>>>
>>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>>> We could
>>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>>> so porous
>>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>>> general election in November,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>>> think
>>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>>
>>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>>> immigration.html
>>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>>> anchor baby
>>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>>> question the
>>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>>> to an
>>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>>
>>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>>> U.S. Census.
>>>>
>>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>>> __________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list)
> Message-ID: <16327-4C19602F-272 at storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <002f01cb0daf$952be1b0$bf83a510$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Alan,
>
>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>
>> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However,
>> you must have a more or less a description of a suspect car,
>> for if they put the just put out the description of the child,
>> the phones would probably never stop ringing.
>
> Yes, Oregon participates in the Amber Alert System.  Additionally, there 
> is
> specific criteria about the types of missing child situations that can
> utilize the Amber Alert System.  Here's more info on that for those
> interested.
>
> http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AMBERALERT/program_criteria.shtml
>
>> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> Speaking of milk cartons, here's a story on the first child posted on a 
> milk
> carton.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/13/grace.coldcase.patz/index.html
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:33:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C197B53.000007.03504 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> His pix is on posters at work, on the front and exit doors, in the break
> room, and all three rest rooms.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Date: 06/16/10 16:37:27
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> ****************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 17 07:41:22 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 07:41:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00c701cb0e2b$2a527260$7ef75720$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
> 
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not
> a really good web page designer, but what I lack
> in ability I make up for in content.

You're right, there's certainly lots of content there.  Don't discount your
design abilities though.  In my 12 years as a professional, I've seen much,
much worse.  I haven't finished looking through it and reading the content,
but I did notice one thing you might want to fix. 

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/history/hudson-bay-trail.htm

The image at the top is a really large filesize because it's a BMP.  I don't
know if you have image editing software so I took the liberty of converting
it to a filetype that's smaller and attached it to this message.

Jeff
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 09:38:10 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:38:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <88C34A10-0735-42E0-A014-56EDBDBDD86C@verizon.net>

I thought it was a nice looking site Don.

If I may make a suggestion because many learners focus on pictures  
rather than words, in your section titled "Native Americans by Tribal  
Affiliation" the map only includes the state of Washington but the  
text talks about tribes in Oregon and Idaho too.  For visual learners  
it would be helpful to have a map of the Idaho and Oregon tribes as  
well.

You'll have to remind us to come back to the site sometime and see  
how it is growing.

Katie

On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:55 AM, donkelly wrote:

> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In  
> case others
> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my  
> work. All
> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing  
> with
> genealogy or history.
>
>
>
> This was started last month and will be under construction for  
> another month
> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>
>
>
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>
>
>
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Jeff Howden
>
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
>
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
>
>
>
> Don,
>
>
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
>>
>
>> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
>
>
>
> What reasons would those be?
>
>
>
> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of  
> us a
>
> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe  
> rhetoric to the
>
> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member  
> of the
>
> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time  
> putting your
>
> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
>
> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your  
> homework and
>
> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
>
> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 09:53:45 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:53:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <88C34A10-0735-42E0-A014-56EDBDBDD86C@verizon.net>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<88C34A10-0735-42E0-A014-56EDBDBDD86C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C0D9925CF14F4C13A236DE844C0A91E7@JeffVAIO>

Don,

The link to your website was incredibly timely because I just started my 
summer term at Linfield and one of my classes is History of the U.S. West. 
Some of the information you provided was incredibly pertinent to our current 
discussion about Smallpox and the progress of metalworking skills.  In my 
discussion post this morning I referenced your webpage which has a lot of 
interesting info.

The book we are currently reading is very good and is available thru the 
library, The American West: A new interpretive history by Robert V. Hine & 
John Mack Faragher.  You might check it out, as it is VERY well written and 
would be interesting to read, just for fun.

Thanks!
Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 9:38 AM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject

> I thought it was a nice looking site Don.
>
> If I may make a suggestion because many learners focus on pictures
> rather than words, in your section titled "Native Americans by Tribal
> Affiliation" the map only includes the state of Washington but the
> text talks about tribes in Oregon and Idaho too.  For visual learners
> it would be helpful to have a map of the Idaho and Oregon tribes as
> well.
>
> You'll have to remind us to come back to the site sometime and see
> how it is growing.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:55 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In
>> case others
>> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my
>> work. All
>> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing
>> with
>> genealogy or history.
>>
>>
>>
>> This was started last month and will be under construction for
>> another month
>> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
>> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jeff Howden
>>
>> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
>>
>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
>>
>>
>>
>> Don,
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
>>
>>
>>
>> What reasons would those be?
>>
>>
>>
>> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of
>> us a
>>
>> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe
>> rhetoric to the
>>
>> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member
>> of the
>>
>> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time
>> putting your
>>
>> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
>>
>> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your
>> homework and
>>
>> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
>>
>> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 09:51:09 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:51:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00c701cb0e2b$2a527260$7ef75720$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1A526B.000009.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Thank you Jeff. I'll use your edited version. I do use photo suite, but not
expertly. Teachers keep drumming into our heads to save bandwidth, reduce
pixels, and enjoy faster uploads/downloads.

Your advice is great.

My first webpage was put up on the Ireland server in March 1996. I did not
know HTML so I wrote it in text. Everyone who visited had to cut-n-paste
texted URL's into their browser.

But that trend drew much attention and within six months there were over a
hundred volunteers and the birth of Ireland Genweb.

A year later I wanted to put up a county website in Arkansas. The state
admin said I had to learn HTML, so I got online for free training and
learned enough HTML in around three days to make a webpage. 

Next I want to learn dhtml, but that stands in line of a million other
things I want to learn.

Thanks again for comments and help.
 
Don 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/17/2010 7:41:43 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not
> a really good web page designer, but what I lack
> in ability I make up for in content.
 
You're right, there's certainly lots of content there.  Don't discount your
design abilities though.  In my 12 years as a professional, I've seen much,
much worse.  I haven't finished looking through it and reading the content,
but I did notice one thing you might want to fix.
 
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/history/hudson-bay-trail.htm
 
The image at the top is a really large filesize because it's a BMP.  I don't
know if you have image editing software so I took the liberty of converting
it to a filetype that's smaller and attached it to this message.
 
Jeff
 
 
____________________________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 10:26:13 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 10:26:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
In-Reply-To: <A044B677-A438-4AA3-803B-4411869917BB@verizon.net>
References: <16324-4C19024B-315@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<A044B677-A438-4AA3-803B-4411869917BB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <D9DCAD75D53144D3A76691103FB42E41@GeriPC>

Just a comment on public photo surveillance systems, since you mentioned it,
David...  When Mike & I were visiting London (Eng.) 10 years ago, I was
surprised to find that I did not feel bothered at all by their having such a
system.  Guessing that's because in my mind I felt it was there for
deterring & helping solve crimes, for public safety information, and so
forth . . .


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:59 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......

> Alan,
>
> My questions would start differently.  I heard that his project had
> something to do with frogs.  So, I ask, did it have live frogs in it?  Was
> he taking a frog out to be returned to nature?  Did he go to find frogs
> and become disoriented or fall?  If he left on a "frog quest" did someone
> interact with him on a road or path?  Did someone familiar with the
> science projects, approach him with an offer to find frogs?
>
> In cases like this, a photo surveillance system would be very helpful.
> Because we are afraid of "big brother" we don't have them.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote:
>
>>
>> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
>> had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
>> scrutinised.
>> ...
>> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
>> hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
>> again, it's only a gut instinct.
>>
>> ~A~ It's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 10:56:11 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 10:56:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
References: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<C17C124755FC481BA1B13718E0DAFA9F@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <4C1A61BA.00001E.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Music is uplifting to the spirit. We may recall from times past, following
air raids in Germany, the musicians would play music in the park to uplift
the spirits of the people, whom otherwise had little reason to celebrate. It
is a time when everything else can be set aside, and enjoy the music, and
honor those who entertain us.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Marian Cakarnis
Date: 6/17/2010 7:26:32 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
 
Mom,
 
If you are interested in doing something this Sunday, it sounds like there
will be fun concert with german music at Rogers Park....
 
Marian
 
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Theresa Carter" <theresacus at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:28 AM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>; "WCCHD" <wcchd at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
 
>  Forest Grove Music in the Park is back
> This Sunday, June 20th is the first event.
>
> 1-2 PM Open Mic - Early sign-ups at theresacus at yahoo.com
> It's starting to fill so sign up if you want to play.
> I go to the park at 8AM so all requests after that have to be done at the
> park.
>
> 2-4 PM Featured Artist - Han's and Keith
> They have been playing music for the senior center for some time now and
> they are adored there. Han's is a 86 year old accordian player who is well
> ...Hans. Keith is well practiced guitar player most are familiar to in the
> community as the sing-a-long musician.  Plan on a lot of hand clapping and
> foot stomping because it will have a traditional German flair.  Great
> Father's Day family event.
>
> 4-6 Jam - bring your instruments, voice and song.
>
> --- On Wed, 6/16/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com
> <grovenet-request at rdrop.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
> Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 6:33 PM
>
>
> Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
>     grovenet at rdrop.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     grovenet-request at rdrop.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     grovenet-owner at rdrop.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>    2. Re: A New Subject...... (Ed Davie)
>    3. New subject (Steele, Mike)
>    4. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>    5. Re: Republican candidate suggests landmines    atUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>    6. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>    7. Re: New subject (donkelly)
>    8. Re: New subject (Jeff Howden)
>    9. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>   10. Re: New subject (Jim Zaleski)
>   11. Re: Republican    candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>   12. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>   13. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Geri Steele)
>   14. Re: A New Subject...... (Alan Domenghini)
>   15. Re: A New Subject...... (Jeff Howden)
>   16. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:59:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: <nospam03 at comcast.net>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C191F2C.000026.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> One thing Alan would do first is talk to the teacher and kids who were at
> the science project. Did his project not win as best? Could he have been
> upset and wander off in that state of mind?
>
> If he wandered off, where would he likely go?
>
> And yes, the teacher when discovering he was missing from the group,
> should
> have made an effort to find him, send boys to the restroom to see if he
> was
> there, or in the cafeteria, or in a closet crying?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steve
> Date: 6/16/2010 10:14:01 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher
> assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the gym.
> The
> teacher who blew this off and marked him absent.
> Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no
> discord
> there.
> This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off somewhere
> safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All evidence
> points
> to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project With his
> class.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
> say...
>
> My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
> Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
> enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
> It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.
>
> In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.  First I
> would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
> criminal case.
> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
> had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
> scrutinised.
>
> As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
> two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on, maybe
> trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
> members.
>
> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
> hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But then
> again, it's only a gut instinct.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
> From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <0DC895119D95408E98DEDF0D22673693 at EdDaviePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized!
> If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> Ed
>
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:56 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:38:37 -0700
> From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE at everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno,
> but expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me,
> Zygmunt Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible
> connections between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with
> racist perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:41:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> The ultimate harm would come to animals and innocent people.
>
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same in some cases) would
> not
> be stupid enough to walk into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or unmanned aircraft
> quickly on the scene, would seem to make more sense.
>
> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border and alert
> personnel of intruders.
>
> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there, and hopefully
> some
> would be willing to help protect their homes and families.
>
> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent from harm.
>
> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and escorting a
> group
> of mules, followed by another guy carrying an AK47.
>
> In which case terminate with extreme prejudice.............meaning, spoil
> their day.
>
> Likely the mules will drop their packs and beat feet for home.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:48:56 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or that
> you're
> joking and think that's actually funny.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:40:18 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>     atUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
>     format=flowed
>
> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
> disorder they have on so many issues:
>
> CaseA:
> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>
> Case B:
> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>
> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>
>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>> just illegal immigrants.
>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>> themselves are not eligible.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>
>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>
>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>
>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>> radio
>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>> with
>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>> reports.
>>>
>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>> We could
>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>> so porous
>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>
>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>> general election in November,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>> think
>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>
>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>
>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>> immigration.html
>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>> anchor baby
>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>> question the
>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>> to an
>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>
>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>> U.S. Census.
>>>
>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:50:54 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've
> missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border -
> he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that
> they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about
> 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat.
> There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened
> is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be
> that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd
> all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't
> filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is
> to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing
> you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got
> to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power
> to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more
> than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts
> per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs
> for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C193B46.000053.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Brief?
>
> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
> developing
> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>
> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to synthesize
> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said, and
> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative
> to
> what they actually said they would do.
>
> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug
> point,
> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
> another
> signal.
>
> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they
> don't
> care.
>
> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history,
> life
> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>
> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
> reality.
>
> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of
> going
> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
> consequences.
>
> Thank you Mike
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steele, Mike
> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno,
> but
> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:22 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01fa01cb0d98$9eb4a4e0$dc1deea0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note
>> what someone said, and on the other side of the scale
>> note what the person actually did relative to what
>> they actually said they would do.
>
> This only works if we know all the facts involved and are willing to
> include
> all the facts involved in our assessment of the situation.  Without that
> and
> the emotional integrity to not try to make the facts arrive at a
> conclusion
> we've already drawn, we inevitably going to be incorrect in our conclusion
> except by the rare chance that our initial conclusion was correct to begin
> with.
>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without
>> professional level credentials, to detect a
>> Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure
>> through visual media.
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a
>> particularly smug point, is one signal. Promise
>> everything and give as little as possible, is another
>> signal.
>
> Making judgments like that work in a vacuum where the one making the
> judgments isn't bringing their own emotional baggage into the judgment
> process.  However, none of us operate within a vacuum or without baggage.
> So, we're all going to see the situation/motive/outcome a little
> differently.  Additionally, us humans have a silly, but useful/necessary
> propensity to make things up to fill the gaps in our knowledge.  So, when
> casting judgment and we run into something that doesn't make sense and/or
> can't be explained, we ignore it, twist it, or make up our own
> explanations
> that may or may not fly in the face of actual facts in the situation that
> no
> one disputes.
>
> Alan can probably attest to this with crimes and witness testimony, some
> of
> it no doubt contradictory, even though they contain elements of
> similarity.
> Who's testimony is wrong?  Who's view of the situation is wrong?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:12:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C194C57.000065.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 1:57:20 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
> suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then you've
> missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.  Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the border -
> he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people that
> they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said, you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know, about
> 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 - there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a repeat.
> There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's happened
> is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use to be
> that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200' range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So they'd
> all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you couldn't
> filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and labor, is
> to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.  Guessing
> you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed you've got
> to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human power
> to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no more
> than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3 shifts
> per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle costs
> for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.  Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.  Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2 or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:18:25 -0700
> From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTiks-uigkg5MPD7TWXb7xksBJZ-nScVPKJ7Ea_Dv at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> To the list,
>
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I think Don has finally managed to
> describe himself with some honestly. What he's written fits him to a Tee.
> Freudian slip? Perhaps, but I think he must have been looking in the
> mirror
> for inspiration when he wrote this one.
>
> jimz
>
> PS: My comments are below.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:59 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Brief?
>>
>> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their lofty
>> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
>> developing
>> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>>
>> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to
>> synthesize
>> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>>
>
> Yes, conjecture, paranoid, conspiratorial mind-play, rumor mongering, fear
> mongering, lying, intentional falsification of evidence to skew the truth
> and cast doubt, and on and on.
>
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone said,
>> and
>> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did relative
>> to
>> what they actually said they would do.
>>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
>> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>>
>
> Yes, you should be able to *detect a Narcissistic personality* every time
> you look in the mirror.
>
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly smug
>> point,
>> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
>> another
>> signal.
>>
>
> Boy, you describe yourself well here. You promise everything, but rarely
> deliver. And altho we can't see you do it, your sharp jabs and snide
> comments certainly amount to an aloof and smug personality.
>
>>
>> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks, they
>> don't
>
> care.
>>
>
> That's spot on Don, *You* don't care what others think, and ultimately,
> your
> behavior speaks for itself. You just don't care.
>
>>
>> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in history,
>> life
>> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>>
>
> Yes, *You* do whatever you want to do, despite the multitude of evidence
> offered up to counter your biased drivel. And yes again, *nothing, truth
> or
> fiction in history, life or death of traditions will stop* you. You have
> become as annoying as a gnat, no amount of swatting seems able to make you
> go away.
>
>>
>> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to their
>> reality.
>>
>
> *You* seem to live by this credo. You constantly try to shape reality to
> your view, regardless of how outrageous and preposterous your claims. You
> snub your nose at the truth and then expect us to respect you. That in
> itself is a distortion of reality.
>
>>
>> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers of
>> going
>> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
>> consequences.
>>
>
> This is no surprise, you never go into detail on anything. And the
> extremist
> views you've spewed are indeed dangerous. You are a prime example of a
> clueless, jabbering mouthpiece whose words have the potential of leading
> to
> fatal consequences. Your constant berating of Obama is one such example.
> You
> like to incite and then walk away. You have done nothing to establish
> honest
> dialogue on this list, all I ever see are attempts to rattle the
> opposition.
> You take sick pride in stirring things up.
>
> And finally. Thanks for exposing yourself to us all. No one else could
> have
> done a better job!
>
>>
>> Thank you Mike
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Steele, Mike
>> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>>
>> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
>> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor Adorno,
>> but
>> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me, Zygmunt
>> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible connections
>> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
>> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>>
>> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:23:42 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican    candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <3FF431B2-436F-480B-A8EA-65C0FFA4DC8E at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>>
>>
>
> You are such a hoot Don.
>
> Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a
> link to his source material.
>
> It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was
> from from NM, not Texas.
>
> In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original  post:
>
>>From Jeff:
> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>
> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
> effective way to secure the border.
>
> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX radio
> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire with
> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:37:31 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <001001cb0da4$850472d0$8f0d5870$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
> There's no way I or anyone else could have known that as you said nothing
> more than "Seed the border area with claymore mines".  In fact, even now,
> it
> comes off as backpeddling and/or blameshifting.  I shouldn't have to
> research your claims, but I did.  I didn't find anything for either
> Senator
> Hutchison or Senator Cornyn indicating that was a suggestion they'd made.
> It's the sort of claim that'd make for quite a bit of media fodder so if
> they'd actually said that, it'd be online somewhere.  Now, maybe you're
> referring a Texas State Senator, rather than a US Senator from Texas.  I
> can't be bothered to go to that level of research for something that's
> your
> responsibility to accurately attribute and cite.
>
> Now, if you're referring to Tim Mullins, a GOP congressional nominee (not
> an
> actual Senator yet, or ever), and not from Texas, but New Mexico, then
> you're making a circular reference to the start of this thread, something
> *I* posted.
>
> If you're not talking about Tim Mullins, I'd love to read up on it, if
> you'd
> be so kind as to name names, link to one or more news articles, etc. to
> document that claim.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:13:21 -0700
> From: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <571917C39DFB4AECB4B549FF91E00FAA at GeriPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>     reply-type=original
>
> And I often wonder: do they *know* they are doing this???
> Do they forget that someone always seems to have them
> on record, LOL?!  Or are they just insane?
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 1:40 PM
> To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests
> list"
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
>> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
>> disorder they have on so many issues:
>>
>> CaseA:
>> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>>
>> Case B:
>> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
>> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>>
>> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal conviction.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>>
>>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>>> just illegal immigrants.
>>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>>> themselves are not eligible.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>>
>>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>>
>>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
>>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>>
>>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>>> radio
>>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>>> with
>>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>>> reports.
>>>>
>>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>>> We could
>>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>>> so porous
>>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in the
>>>> general election in November,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>>> think
>>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>>
>>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>>> immigration.html
>>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>>> anchor baby
>>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>>> question the
>>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>>> to an
>>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>>
>>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>>> U.S. Census.
>>>>
>>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>>> __________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list)
> Message-ID: <16327-4C19602F-272 at storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <002f01cb0daf$952be1b0$bf83a510$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Alan,
>
>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>
>> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However,
>> you must have a more or less a description of a suspect car,
>> for if they put the just put out the description of the child,
>> the phones would probably never stop ringing.
>
> Yes, Oregon participates in the Amber Alert System.  Additionally, there
> is
> specific criteria about the types of missing child situations that can
> utilize the Amber Alert System.  Here's more info on that for those
> interested.
>
> http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AMBERALERT/program_criteria.shtml
>
>> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> Speaking of milk cartons, here's a story on the first child posted on a
> milk
> carton.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/13/grace.coldcase.patz/index.html
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:33:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C197B53.000007.03504 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> His pix is on posters at work, on the front and exit doors, in the break
> room, and all three rest rooms.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Date: 06/16/10 16:37:27
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> ****************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 11:31:53 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:31:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinI37JHcTwn1RaahYC_oFRsvvK-MkwlFohnK560@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Don, you've actually managed to submit a post free of
controversy and down right interesting. THIS is the type of posting that
benefits everyone. Wouldn't you agree that positive, entertaining and
educational posts like this one are a whole lot better than poking a
hornet's nest with and stick then running for cover? I challenge you to keep
it up. Who knows, with the right content you might even become a hero on
this list as well. We are not enemies Don, but we're acting like ones.
People are easily provoked when they're poked with a stick. Time to drop the
stick and turn things around.

jimz


On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 12:55 AM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In case others
> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my work.
> All
> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing with
> genealogy or history.
>
> This was started last month and will be under construction for another
> month
> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/<http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Ewatttp/>
>
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>
> Don
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
>
> Don,
>
> > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> >
> > Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
>
> What reasons would those be?
>
> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of us a
> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe rhetoric to
> the
> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member of the
> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time putting your
> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your homework and
> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 11:34:37 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:34:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Should all candidates prove they are
	eligible to run for office?
Message-ID: <4C1A6AB8.00002D.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Here is the news. Documented. You read. You decide.


Posted: June 16, 2010
9:11 PM Eastern
By Joe Kovacs
? 2010 WorldNetDaily 


The former Honolulu elections clerk who maintains President Obama was not
born in Hawaii and has no birth certificate from any hospital in the Aloha
State is promoting a simple way to resolve the uproar over eligibility, at
least for the future.
Tim Adams, 45, senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in the 2008 campaign, says all candidates for all offices should be required to prove their identity and eligibility before they can even run. 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 11:53:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:53:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>	<88C34A10-0735-42E0-A014-56EDBDBDD86C@verizon.net>
	<C0D9925CF14F4C13A236DE844C0A91E7@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <4C1A6F08.000034.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Thank you Marian. I try to help in any area of my interest. This site just
started so it will grow in direct proportion to time I can spend on it.

Feel free to use anything I wrote. All are copyright free. Editing goes on
all the time, so what you see today may not look like what you see next
month.

Glad to be Johnny on the spot for a change. I hope this helps the kids. 

Development of metal work in the west was a great interest to Indians, who
broke apart shipwrecks to salvage pieces of metal, and even maintained
slaves who knew how to work metal.

This happened right here in Oregon- - -but long ago. Little know facts? You
bet.

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Marian Cakarnis
Date: 6/17/2010 9:49:31 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
Don,
 
The link to your website was incredibly timely because I just started my
summer term at Linfield and one of my classes is History of the U.S. West.
Some of the information you provided was incredibly pertinent to our current
discussion about Smallpox and the progress of metalworking skills.  In my
discussion post this morning I referenced your webpage which has a lot of
interesting info.
 
The book we are currently reading is very good and is available thru the
library, The American West: A new interpretive history by Robert V. Hine &
John Mack Faragher.  You might check it out, as it is VERY well written and
would be interesting to read, just for fun.
 
Thanks!
Marian
 
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 9:38 AM
To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list"
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
> I thought it was a nice looking site Don.
>
> If I may make a suggestion because many learners focus on pictures
> rather than words, in your section titled "Native Americans by Tribal
> Affiliation" the map only includes the state of Washington but the
> text talks about tribes in Oregon and Idaho too.  For visual learners
> it would be helpful to have a map of the Idaho and Oregon tribes as
> well.
>
> You'll have to remind us to come back to the site sometime and see
> how it is growing.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:55 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In
>> case others
>> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my
>> work. All
>> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing
>> with
>> genealogy or history.
>>
>>
>>
>> This was started last month and will be under construction for
>> another month
>> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
>> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jeff Howden
>>
>> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
>>
>> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
>>
>>
>>
>> Don,
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
>>
>>
>>
>> What reasons would those be?
>>
>>
>>
>> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of
>> us a
>>
>> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe
>> rhetoric to the
>>
>> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member
>> of the
>>
>> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time
>> putting your
>>
>> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
>>
>> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your
>> homework and
>>
>> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
>>
>> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 12:03:17 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:03:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
Message-ID: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Pay no attention to the talking heads, but please watch the two videos and
answer the question, 
"Is this what we should be teaching our kids?"
I admit I agree with part, "Education is the answer", but the rest was
disturbing. 
Don

Check out the discussion 'I AM AN OBAMA SCHOLAR?'
Please take a look & share your thoughts!


Discussion posted by Jared Law:

So when did we fundamentally transform into a dictatorship where
taxpayer-funded school kids are lead in a chant reminiscent of North Korea..



Discussion link:
I AM AN OBAMA SCHOLAR?
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 12:37:54 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:37:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: trails-to-the-past Re-ride headed to eastern Wyoming
Message-ID: <4C1A798F.000044.00740@DON-B2514E06367>


Pony express enactment; part of our history.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Billie Walsh
Date: 6/17/2010 3:43:41 AM
To: trails-to-the-past at googlegroups.com
Subject: trails-to-the-past Re-ride headed to eastern Wyoming
 
Local riders are making final preparations to take part in this year?s
annual re-ride to commemorate the original Pony Express. Approximately
20 members of the Southeast Wyoming Pony Express Association, primarily
from Platte and Goshen Counties, will cover the 93 miles of trail
between Glendo and the state line at Henry, Nebraska on Thursday, June 17th.
 
http://www.guernseygazette.com/v2_news_articles
php?heading=0&story_id=785&page=72
 
--
Vy iz der not zo many Orziz az der iz Orziz azziz
 
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 17 13:05:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:05:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Texas Lawmaker Apologizes to BP CEO for '$20 Billion
	Shakedown'
Message-ID: <013301cb0e58$811355b0$833a0110$@com>

This story is about his apology, but it does little to suggest why he'd feel
compelled to apologize.  However, this little snippet from another news
article gets it right.

"According to the Associated Press, Barton has taken more than $100,000 in
political contributions from oil and gas interests since the beginning of
2009, more than all but one other member of the House Energy and Commerce
Committee."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20008020-503544.html

Looking past 2009 though and we see an even more clear picture:

"Its data showed that Barton has collected $1,447,880 from political action
committees and individuals connected with the oil and gas industry since
1989."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65G42D20100617

Perhaps his contributions are actually much higher if you take into
consideration some of the creative ways he's found to receive contributions
so that he doesn't have to report them as contributions.

http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/44881

I wonder how much BP stock he owns.  Does anyone know where I can find that
sort of information?

Jeff

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Texas Lawmaker Apologizes to BP CEO for '$20 Billion Shakedown'
http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/06/17/17greenwire-texas-lawmaker-apologize
s-to-bp-ceo-for-20-bil-57728.html
By JOSH VOORHEES of  <http://www.greenwire.com> Greenwire
Published: June 17, 2010 

In an unexpected move, a top House Republican today offered an apology to BP
PLC for what he called a White House "shakedown" of the British oil giant.

Texas Rep. Joe Barton, the top Republican on the Energy and Commerce
Committee, said that President Obama went too far in pressuring BP to fund a
$20 billion escrow account to pay for environmental and economic damages
resulting from the ongoing Gulf of Mexico oil spill.

"I am ashamed of what happened at the White House yesterday," Barton said.
"I think it is a tragedy of the first proportion that a private corporation
can be subjected to what I would consider a shakedown, in this case a $20
billion shakedown."

Barton said that it was unfair for the White House to press for the fund at
the same time that Attorney General Eric Holder is considering criminal
charges against the oil company.

"There is no question that BP is liable for the damages, but we have a due
process system," he said. "I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I
apologize."

Barton made his comments at a hearing on the cause of the BP oil spill, amid
heavy bipartisan criticism of the oil giant's chief executive, Tony Hayward.

Democrats were quick to break from their prepared remarks to come to the
defense of the White House-brokered spill recovery fund.

Rep. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) said that it was "not a shakedown, rather it
was the government of the United States working to protect the most
vulnerable citizens that we have in our country right now: the residents of
the Gulf."

The White House also scrambled to respond, quickly releasing a statement
calling on lawmakers to repudiate Barton's remarks.

"What is shameful is that Joe Barton seems to have more concern for big
corporations that caused this disaster than the fishermen, small business
owners and communities whose lives have been devastated by the destruction,"
White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said in a statement. "Congressman
Barton may think that a fund to compensate these Americans is a 'tragedy,'
but most Americans know that the real tragedy is what the men and women of
the Gulf Coast are going through right now."

Corporate indifference

With the exception of Barton's apology, there have so far been few surprises
during today's hearing, which began this morning and is expected to carry
into the late afternoon.

Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle focused their anger at Hayward and the
rest of BP for failing to weigh the risks of deepwater drilling.

The energy panel's Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee has been
reviewing both the lead-up to the April 20 Deepwater Horizon explosion and
the response to the massive oil spill that ensued.

Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), the chairman of the full committee, said that
he and his staff had reviewed roughly 30,000 pages of documents and e-mails
from BP and found that company executives were "oblivious" to the inherent
risks of deepwater drilling.

"There is not a single e-mail or document that shows you paid even the
slightest attention to the dangers at this well," Waxman said.

Waxman added that he likewise found no evidence of involvement from Doug
Suttles or Andy Inglis, BP America's chief executive and chief operating
officer for exploration and production.

"BP's corporate complacency is astonishing," Waxman said.

A number of lawmakers read from company e-mails that they had obtained,
including one sent from a BP drilling engineer after learning of the risks
and BP's decision to ignore them. "[W]ho cares, it's done, end of story,
will probably be fine," the e-mail said, according to lawmakers.

"We have learned that time and again BP officials had warning signs that
this was, as one employee put it, 'a nightmare well,'" said Oversight and
Investigations Subcommittee Chairman Bart Stupak (D-Mich.). "They made
choices that set safety aside in exchange for cost-cutting and time-saving
decisions."

Lawmakers have raised a number of specific questions about BP's actions in
the lead-up to the accident, including decisions to use a well design with
relatively few barriers to gas flow and to limit the amount of
"centralizers" used to ensure the drill pipe was centered in the well.

They have also questioned why BP did not run an additional test to evaluate
the effectiveness of the cement at the bottom of the well, remove
potentially gas-bearing drilling mud and secure the wellhead with a lockdown
sleeve before allowing pressure on the seal from below.

Rep. Michael Burgess (R-Texas), the subcommittee's ranking member, said that
while federal regulators and contractors likely played a part in the
accident, it was BP's "general lack of curiosity" and failure to follow best
industry practices that led to the blowout.

Despite several urgings from lawmakers beforehand, Hayward stuck to his
script during his opening remarks.

He said that he was "deeply sorry" for the ongoing spill and told lawmakers
that BP investigators had yet to complete their investigation.

"I understand people want a simple answer about why this happened and who is
to blame," Hayward said. "The truth, however, is that this is a complex
accident, caused by an unprecedented combination of failures."

Lawmakers are expected to use the question-and-answer portion of the hearing
later today to press Hayward for a more detailed account of what he knew and
when he knew it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 17 13:05:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:05:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
In-Reply-To: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Pay no attention to the talking heads, but please
> watch the two videos and answer the question,
> 
> "Is this what we should be teaching our kids?"

I think that's an impossible question to answer as we don't have adequate
context for the video.  Is this a regular classroom?  Is this a public
school or a private school?  Is this a school at all or a program for
troubled youth?

> I admit I agree with part, "Education is the answer",
> but the rest was disturbing.

Yes, it's alittle weird, I'll give you that.  However, I suspect that it was
edited intentionally to make it come off alittle weird.  With proper
context, it probably wouldn't come off so weird.

> I AM AN OBAMA SCHOLAR?

You didn't actually link to anything so I had to go find it myself.  Here's
what I found.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/i-am-an-obama-scholar/

Is that what you're talking about?

Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing.

Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 13:22:25 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:22:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Music in the Park is Back!
In-Reply-To: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <523546.80497.qm@web34508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40E279D6-AD6A-4BAB-B2FC-57DA655307C4@verizon.net>

I really enjoyed going last year.
It is so nice to have some thing close by and relaxed.
Just be sure to bring your own blanket or chair to sit on. (Unless of  
course you want to dance the whole time!)

Thank you for the reminder.

Katie

On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:28 AM, Theresa Carter wrote:

>  Forest Grove Music in the Park is back
> This Sunday, June 20th is the first event.
>
> 1-2 PM Open Mic - Early sign-ups at theresacus at yahoo.com
> It's starting to fill so sign up if you want to play.
> I go to the park at 8AM so all requests after that have to be done  
> at the park.
>
> 2-4 PM Featured Artist - Han's and Keith
> They have been playing music for the senior center for some time  
> now and they are adored there. Han's is a 86 year old accordian  
> player who is well ...Hans. Keith is well practiced guitar player  
> most are familiar to in the community as the sing-a-long musician.   
> Plan on a lot of hand clapping and foot stomping because it will  
> have a traditional German flair.  Great Father's Day family event.
>
> 4-6 Jam - bring your instruments, voice and song.
>
> --- On Wed, 6/16/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet- 
> request at rdrop.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com <grovenet-request at rdrop.com>
> Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 6:33 PM
>
>
> Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to
>     grovenet at rdrop.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     grovenet-request at rdrop.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     grovenet-owner at rdrop.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>    2. Re: A New Subject...... (Ed Davie)
>    3. New subject (Steele, Mike)
>    4. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>    5. Re: Republican candidate suggests landmines    atUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>    6. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>    7. Re: New subject (donkelly)
>    8. Re: New subject (Jeff Howden)
>    9. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (donkelly)
>   10. Re: New subject (Jim Zaleski)
>   11. Re: Republican    candidate    suggestslandminesatUS- 
> Mexicoborder
>       (Katie Allnutt)
>   12. Re: Republican candidate    suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Jeff Howden)
>   13. Re: Republican candidate suggests    landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>       (Geri Steele)
>   14. Re: A New Subject...... (Alan Domenghini)
>   15. Re: A New Subject...... (Jeff Howden)
>   16. Re: A New Subject...... (donkelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:59:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: <nospam03 at comcast.net>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C191F2C.000026.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> One thing Alan would do first is talk to the teacher and kids who  
> were at
> the science project. Did his project not win as best? Could he have  
> been
> upset and wander off in that state of mind?
>
> If he wandered off, where would he likely go?
>
> And yes, the teacher when discovering he was missing from the  
> group, should
> have made an effort to find him, send boys to the restroom to see  
> if he was
> there, or in the cafeteria, or in a closet crying?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steve
> Date: 6/16/2010 10:14:01 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> How would you account for the kids who saw him in class. The teacher
> assistant that noted the wrong head count after returning from the  
> gym. The
> teacher who blew this off and marked him absent.
> Critical hours were lost. The parents are all standing together, no  
> discord
> there.
> This is the worst horror story could think of. Drop your kid off  
> somewhere
> safe only feet from the door of his room and he is gone. All  
> evidence points
> to him gone missing after the second trip to the science project  
> With his
> class.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:56:43
> To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> I chose this back ground and music as a pro-log to what I am about
> say...
>
> My 2? or more about the missing 7 year old boy Kyron Horman.  Please
> Understand that I am not trying to 2nd or even 3rd guess the law
> enforcement agencies that are handling the case.
> It is just I what I would of done had it been my case.
>
> In the very beginning I would worked the case very differently.   
> First I
> would of worked then case from both aspects as a missing child and a
> criminal case.
> In any case of a missing person .. anyone who knows the child, or even
> had the occasion to come in contact with the child needs to be
> scrutinised.
>
> As for this case my gut instinct tells me to start at home.  Kyron has
> two sets of parents, and I wondering if he had any thing going on,  
> maybe
> trouble with siblings, parents/step-parents , and any other family
> members.
>
> In my experience if the child has not been found in the first 24 to 74
> hours then there is not much chance of being found un-harmed.   But  
> then
> again, it's only a gut instinct.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:02:56 -0700
> From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <0DC895119D95408E98DEDF0D22673693 at EdDaviePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber  
> alert" being utilized!
> If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> Ed
>
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 9:56 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:38:37 -0700
> From: "Steele, Mike" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>      
> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E274AADE at everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The  
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor  
> Adorno, but expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo  
> (and, for me, Zygmunt Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions,  
> such as possible connections between extreme authoritarians and  
> radical conservatives with racist perspectives.  For a brief  
> introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:41:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C1928F0.00003E.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> The ultimate harm would come to animals and innocent people.
>
> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same in some cases)  
> would not
> be stupid enough to walk into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or unmanned  
> aircraft
> quickly on the scene, would seem to make more sense.
>
> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border and  
> alert
> personnel of intruders.
>
> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there, and  
> hopefully some
> would be willing to help protect their homes and families.
>
> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent from  
> harm.
>
> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and escorting  
> a group
> of mules, followed by another guy carrying an AK47.
>
> In which case terminate with extreme prejudice.............meaning,  
> spoil
> their day.
>
> Likely the mules will drop their packs and beat feet for home.
>
> Don
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:48:56 AM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm more concerned that you might be serious or  
> that you're
> joking and think that's actually funny.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:40:18 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>     atUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <BEBCEF1A-DBF5-4AB2-9A8A-BB1AEC325D51 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
>     format=flowed
>
> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
> disorder they have on so many issues:
>
> CaseA:
> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>
> Case B:
> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>
> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal  
> conviction.
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Katie Allnutt
>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>
>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>> just illegal immigrants.
>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>> themselves are not eligible.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>
>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>
>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might  
>>> be an
>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>
>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>> radio
>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>> with
>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>> reports.
>>>
>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>> We could
>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>> so porous
>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>
>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n in  
>>> the
>>> general election in November,
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>> mullins-new-
>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>> think
>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>
>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>
>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>> immigration.html
>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>> anchor baby
>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>> question the
>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it says.
>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>> to an
>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>
>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>> U.S. Census.
>>>
>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>____________________________________ 
>> _
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:50:54 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01f101cb0d95$9e92f370$dbb8da50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for  
> making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented  
> crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid  
> enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected  
> -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border  
> with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then  
> you've missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.   
> Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country  
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more  
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups  
> involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side  
> of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He  
> touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the  
> border - he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people  
> that they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote  
> charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this  
> is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons  
> and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said,  
> you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant  
> across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know,  
> about 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure  
> you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 -  
> there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your  
> destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a  
> repeat. There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid  
> up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's  
> happened is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use  
> to be that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and  
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to  
> cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that  
> leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200'  
> range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So  
> they'd all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you  
> couldn't filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not  
> detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and  
> labor, is to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.   
> Guessing you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed  
> you've got to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal  
> and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the  
> central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human  
> power to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a  
> genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no  
> more than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3  
> shifts per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes  
> for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and  
> maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle  
> costs for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely  
> sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.   
> Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/ 
> saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless  
> miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced  
> due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild  
> animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this  
> type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.   
> Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2  
> or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's  
> dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as  
> well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C193B46.000053.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Brief?
>
> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their  
> lofty
> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by  
> developing
> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>
> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to  
> synthesize
> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>
> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone  
> said, and
> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did  
> relative to
> what they actually said they would do.
>
> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we encounter  
> one,
> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>
> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly  
> smug point,
> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible,  
> is another
> signal.
>
> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks,  
> they don't
> care.
>
> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in  
> history, life
> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>
> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to  
> their
> reality.
>
> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers  
> of going
> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal  
> consequences.
>
> Thank you Mike
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Steele, Mike
> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>
> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor  
> Adorno, but
> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me,  
> Zygmunt
> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible  
> connections
> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>
> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>
> --Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:12:22 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <01fa01cb0d98$9eb4a4e0$dc1deea0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note
>> what someone said, and on the other side of the scale
>> note what the person actually did relative to what
>> they actually said they would do.
>
> This only works if we know all the facts involved and are willing  
> to include
> all the facts involved in our assessment of the situation.  Without  
> that and
> the emotional integrity to not try to make the facts arrive at a  
> conclusion
> we've already drawn, we inevitably going to be incorrect in our  
> conclusion
> except by the rare chance that our initial conclusion was correct  
> to begin
> with.
>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without
>> professional level credentials, to detect a
>> Narcissistic personality when we encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure
>> through visual media.
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a
>> particularly smug point, is one signal. Promise
>> everything and give as little as possible, is another
>> signal.
>
> Making judgments like that work in a vacuum where the one making the
> judgments isn't bringing their own emotional baggage into the judgment
> process.  However, none of us operate within a vacuum or without  
> baggage.
> So, we're all going to see the situation/motive/outcome a little
> differently.  Additionally, us humans have a silly, but useful/ 
> necessary
> propensity to make things up to fill the gaps in our knowledge.   
> So, when
> casting judgment and we run into something that doesn't make sense  
> and/or
> can't be explained, we ignore it, twist it, or make up our own  
> explanations
> that may or may not fly in the face of actual facts in the  
> situation that no
> one disputes.
>
> Alan can probably attest to this with crimes and witness testimony,  
> some of
> it no doubt contradictory, even though they contain elements of  
> similarity.
> Who's testimony is wrong?  Who's view of the situation is wrong?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:12:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: <jeff at jeffhowden.com>,    "Forest Grove local interests list"
>     <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C194C57.000065.02520 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jeff Howden
> Date: 6/16/2010 1:57:20 PM
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
> suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Relax Jeff. Not serious and not funny.
>
> What's the point of making the suggestion if you're not doing it to be
> serious or funny?  What other possible reasons could there be for  
> making
> such a preposterous suggestion?
>
>> The ultimate harm would come to animals and
>> innocent people.
>>
>> That assumes the terrorists and drug runners (same
>> in some cases) would not be stupid enough to walk
>> into a deployed claymore ordinance.
>
> Even if terrorists (of which there's almost no numbers documented  
> crossing
> or attempting to cross the border) and drug runners were stupid  
> enough to
> get caught up in them, you're missing the larger pool of affected  
> -- the
> quantity of human smugglers and those accompanying them.
>
> I'm hoping you're referring to the ones trying to cross the border  
> with or
> without these "coyotes" as the innocent people.  If not, then  
> you've missed
> out on probably the largest percent of the population that'll pay the
> ultimate price for this sort of "solution" to the border problem.   
> Yes, I
> realize they're breaking our laws by trying to enter the country  
> illegally,
> but surely that doesn't justify killing or maiming them.
>
> Additionally, the more difficult or dangerous the border, the more  
> expensive
> the coyote services will be and the more dangerous the groups  
> involved in
> offering those services (especially when operating on the US side  
> of the
> border).  By tightening up the border since the beginning of the Bush
> administration, we've already seen the impact on the human smuggling
> industry.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126887021
>
> KEVIN (Caller): Hi, Neal. My question is for Ted Robbins. He  
> touched on it
> earlier. The real measure of the successful apprehension at the  
> border - he
> said that border patrol is - keeps records on the number of people  
> that they
> catch. But the real measure is, what is the price that a coyote  
> charges to
> get immigrants across? Because I grew up on the Otay Mesa, so this  
> is an
> issue near and dear to my heart. I used to shoot in those canyons  
> and run
> across illegals all the time. But that's the real measure. He said,  
> you
> know, we don't know how many we don't catch. But the real issue - the
> economic issue is, what does a coyote charge to get an immigrant  
> across?
> When I lived there 25 years ago - 30 years ago, it was, you know,  
> about 300
> bucks a pop.
>
> CONAN: Ted Robbins?
>
> ROBBINS: Yeah. I don't think you - yeah, back then, I'm not sure  
> you even
> needed a coyote. It's gone way up. I mean, it's 1,500, 2,500 -  
> there are
> different price ranges. If you have a guarantee to get to your  
> destination
> before - you know, whether you're caught or not and you get a  
> repeat. There
> have been Chinese coming across the southern border who have paid  
> up to,
> reportedly they say, up to $40,000. So it's become the - what's  
> happened is
> the same folks who move drugs now move people, and that didnt use  
> to be that
> way. It used to be just sort of a family business. You'd escort people
> across. It's become dangerously criminalized and very expensive and  
> subject
> to extortion on the other end in drop houses in Phoenix or Tucson or
> wherever.
>
>> Good fence with good motion detectors to put boots or
>> unmanned aircraft quickly on the scene, would seem to
>> make more sense.
>
> The border is nearly 2,000 miles long.  That's lot of ground to  
> cover with
> motion detectors.
>
> With only about 700 miles of it under effective control, that  
> leaves over
> 1,200 miles to outfit.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border
>
> Good, outdoor, long-range motion detectors have about a sub-200'  
> range.
> Motion detectors are no good if they're too sensitive though.  So  
> they'd all
> have to be tweaked so they weren't set off by animals.  However, some
> animals are too large or close to the size of humans so you  
> couldn't filter
> them out by turning down the sensitivity or you'd risk not  
> detecting human
> movement.  The solution, though expensive in both equipment and  
> labor, is to
> pair cameras with the detectors.  Then, a remote set of eyeballs could
> determine the cause for the trip of the motion detector.
>
> For those 1,200 miles, you're talking nearly 32,000 detectors.   
> Guessing you
> could get cameras with a range greater than 200', you'd be looking at
> somewhere around 16,000 cameras.  Once these are all installed  
> you've got to
> come up with a way to power these devices and to transmit signal  
> and video
> to a central processing location -- no small feat.  Once at the  
> central
> processing location, you'd have to have massive computing and human  
> power to
> monitor it all, dispatch agents to the location in the event of a  
> genuine
> crossing attempt, etc.
>
> For the sake of expediency, you'd need to have agents stationed no  
> more than
> every 25 miles.  Assuming only a single agent at each location, 3  
> shifts per
> day, each working 7 days a week (not feasible I know, but it makes  
> for a
> conservative estimate), you're talking about construction and  
> maintenance
> costs for 48 facilities and 144 agents, plus equipment and vehicle  
> costs for
> all of them.  Even then, their response time is going to be barely  
> sub-15
> minutes, at best.
>
> Then, take into account the costs for IT and other staff to constantly
> service, maintain, and replace the detectors and cameras, transmission
> system, computer hardware at the central processing location, etc.   
> Even
> without the detectors and cameras being compromised by vandals/ 
> saboteurs,
> you're looking at about 600 detectors, 300 cameras, and countless  
> miles of
> transmission/power lines a month needing to be repaired or replaced  
> due to
> hardware failure, damage from the environment, damage from wild  
> animals,
> etc. (assuming only 2% monthly loss, a very low estimate for this  
> type of
> sophisticated hardware).  Add in the vandal/saboteur element and those
> numbers go up drastically.
>
>> Drastic, but a static satellite camera could sweep the border
>> and alert personnel of intruders.
>
> Drastic, and expensive.
>
>> But there are a lot of crack shot deer hunters out there,
>> and hopefully some would be willing to help protect their
>> homes and families.
>
> Murder is still murder.
>
>> That would provide pin point accuracy to protect the innocent
>> from harm.
>
> People crossing the border to work aren't crossing to do harm.   
> Drug mules
> crossing the border with a pack aren't looking to do harm.  Their 2  
> or 3
> handlers maybe are, but not the mules.  For them it's just a job.
>
>> It's not difficult to spot a bad guy carrying an AK47 and
>> escorting a group of mules, followed by another guy
>> carrying an AK47.
>
> Alternatively, deal with the problems that cause American's  
> dependence on
> illicit drugs.  When the demand reduces, the supply will reduce as  
> well.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:18:25 -0700
> From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New subject
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <AANLkTiks-uigkg5MPD7TWXb7xksBJZ-nScVPKJ7Ea_Dv at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> To the list,
>
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I think Don has finally  
> managed to
> describe himself with some honestly. What he's written fits him to  
> a Tee.
> Freudian slip? Perhaps, but I think he must have been looking in  
> the mirror
> for inspiration when he wrote this one.
>
> jimz
>
> PS: My comments are below.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:59 PM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> Brief?
>>
>> That is heavy reading Mike. Scientists get very specific at their  
>> lofty
>> levels to determine the facts about an individual, or a group, by
>> developing
>> various correlations based on various inputs and outputs.
>>
>> We not in the lofty scientific community use simpler methods to  
>> synthesize
>> data that swirls endlessly around us.
>>
>
> Yes, conjecture, paranoid, conspiratorial mind-play, rumor  
> mongering, fear
> mongering, lying, intentional falsification of evidence to skew the  
> truth
> and cast doubt, and on and on.
>
>>
>> As for personalities, on one side of the scale note what someone  
>> said, and
>> on the other side of the scale note what the person actually did  
>> relative
>> to
>> what they actually said they would do.
>>
>> One need not have a difficult time, even without professional level
>> credentials, to detect a Narcissistic personality when we  
>> encounter one,
>> either personally, or through repeated exposure through visual media.
>>
>
> Yes, you should be able to *detect a Narcissistic personality*  
> every time
> you look in the mirror.
>
>>
>> That certain aloof tilt of the head after making a particularly  
>> smug point,
>> is one signal. Promise everything and give as little as possible, is
>> another
>> signal.
>>
>
> Boy, you describe yourself well here. You promise everything, but  
> rarely
> deliver. And altho we can't see you do it, your sharp jabs and snide
> comments certainly amount to an aloof and smug personality.
>
>>
>> Such a person will not care what you, or what your group, thinks,  
>> they
>> don't
>
> care.
>>
>
> That's spot on Don, *You* don't care what others think, and  
> ultimately, your
> behavior speaks for itself. You just don't care.
>
>>
>> They what he/she wants to do, and nothing, truth or fiction in  
>> history,
>> life
>> or death of traditions, will stop them.
>>
>
> Yes, *You* do whatever you want to do, despite the multitude of  
> evidence
> offered up to counter your biased drivel. And yes again, *nothing,  
> truth or
> fiction in history, life or death of traditions will stop* you. You  
> have
> become as annoying as a gnat, no amount of swatting seems able to  
> make you
> go away.
>
>>
>> They will destroy anything, people or country, to shape reality to  
>> their
>> reality.
>>
>
> *You* seem to live by this credo. You constantly try to shape  
> reality to
> your view, regardless of how outrageous and preposterous your  
> claims. You
> snub your nose at the truth and then expect us to respect you. That in
> itself is a distortion of reality.
>
>>
>> And without going into detail, the findings accentuate the dangers  
>> of going
>> too far to the left or to the right. Both can facilitate fatal
>> consequences.
>>
>
> This is no surprise, you never go into detail on anything. And the  
> extremist
> views you've spewed are indeed dangerous. You are a prime example of a
> clueless, jabbering mouthpiece whose words have the potential of  
> leading to
> fatal consequences. Your constant berating of Obama is one such  
> example. You
> like to incite and then walk away. You have done nothing to  
> establish honest
> dialogue on this list, all I ever see are attempts to rattle the  
> opposition.
> You take sick pride in stirring things up.
>
> And finally. Thanks for exposing yourself to us all. No one else  
> could have
> done a better job!
>
>>
>> Thank you Mike
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>> From: Steele, Mike
>> Date: 6/16/2010 12:38:45 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: [Grovenet] New subject
>>
>> Let me suggest discussing Robert Altemeyer's scholarship re The
>> Authoritarian.  Using insights originally formulated by Theodor  
>> Adorno, but
>> expanded on by Stanley Milgram and Philip Zimbardo (and, for me,  
>> Zygmunt
>> Bauman) Altemeyer raises haunting questions, such as possible  
>> connections
>> between extreme authoritarians and radical conservatives with racist
>> perspectives.  For a brief introduction, see:
>>
>> www.roadtopeace.org/research.php?itemid=710&catid=39#go-content
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:23:42 -0700
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican    candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>,    Forest Grove local interests
>     list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <3FF431B2-436F-480B-A8EA-65C0FFA4DC8E at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 3:12 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>>
>>
>
> You are such a hoot Don.
>
> Jeff is the one who started this thread and he (of course) gave a
> link to his source material.
>
> It was actually a congressional nominee, not a Senator, and he was
> from from NM, not Texas.
>
> In case you missed it, here is a repeat of Jeff's original  post:
>
>> From Jeff:
> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>
> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a radio
> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might be an
> effective way to secure the border.
>
> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX  
> radio
> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire  
> with
> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,.........
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:37:31 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate
>     suggestslandminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <001001cb0da4$850472d0$8f0d5870$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Don,
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>>
>> Jeff, the suggestion came from a senator in Texas.
>
> There's no way I or anyone else could have known that as you said  
> nothing
> more than "Seed the border area with claymore mines".  In fact,  
> even now, it
> comes off as backpeddling and/or blameshifting.  I shouldn't have to
> research your claims, but I did.  I didn't find anything for either  
> Senator
> Hutchison or Senator Cornyn indicating that was a suggestion they'd  
> made.
> It's the sort of claim that'd make for quite a bit of media fodder  
> so if
> they'd actually said that, it'd be online somewhere.  Now, maybe  
> you're
> referring a Texas State Senator, rather than a US Senator from  
> Texas.  I
> can't be bothered to go to that level of research for something  
> that's your
> responsibility to accurately attribute and cite.
>
> Now, if you're referring to Tim Mullins, a GOP congressional  
> nominee (not an
> actual Senator yet, or ever), and not from Texas, but New Mexico, then
> you're making a circular reference to the start of this thread,  
> something
> *I* posted.
>
> If you're not talking about Tim Mullins, I'd love to read up on it,  
> if you'd
> be so kind as to name names, link to one or more news articles,  
> etc. to
> document that claim.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:13:21 -0700
> From: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
>     landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <571917C39DFB4AECB4B549FF91E00FAA at GeriPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
>     reply-type=original
>
> And I often wonder: do they *know* they are doing this???
> Do they forget that someone always seems to have them
> on record, LOL?!  Or are they just insane?
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 1:40 PM
> To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local  
> interests list"
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests
> landminesatUS-Mexicoborder
>
>> One reason I never support republicans is the split personality
>> disorder they have on so many issues:
>>
>> CaseA:
>> Ban abortions because they kill the unborn.
>>
>> Case B:
>> Border Patrol: A pregnant woman might cross the border and have an
>> anchor baby - solution - blow up the woman and her unborn.
>>
>> And they loudly and proudly shout these opposites with equal  
>> conviction.
>>
>> Katie
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2010, at 12:00 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>
>>> Seed the border area with claymore mines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>
>>> From: Katie Allnutt
>>> Date: 6/15/2010 3:12:01 PM
>>> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republican candidate suggests landmines
>>> atUS-Mexicoborder
>>>
>>> Not to be picky, but I thought 'anchor baby' applied to more than
>>> just illegal immigrants.
>>> People who are here legally but temporarily also use the birth right
>>> citizenship to establish family members who are citizens when they
>>> themselves are not eligible.
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>>>
>>>> N.M. candidate suggests land mines on border
>>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100615/pl_ynews/ynews_pl2602
>>>> by Liz Goodwin -- Tue Jun 15, 12:35 pm ET
>>>>
>>>> Tim Mullins, a New Mexico GOP congressional nominee, said in a  
>>>> radio
>>>> interview last month that placing landmines on the border might  
>>>> be an
>>>> effective way to secure the border.
>>>>
>>>> Before he won the Republican primary June 1, Tim Mullins told KNMX
>>>> radio
>>>> that the United States could mine the border and put up barbed wire
>>>> with
>>>> signs that redirected people to checkpoints,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10nglk39l/*http:/yhoo.it/cPh0fc> the Associated Press
>>>> reports.
>>>>
>>>> "We could put land mines along the border. I know it sounds crazy.
>>>> We could
>>>> put up signs in 23 different languages if necessary,"
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> Mullins said, arguing that the border is
>>>> so porous
>>>> it facilitates terrorists' entry.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins, who is facing incumbent Democratic Rep. Ben Ray Luj?n  
>>>> in the
>>>> general election in November,
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=12ivkbtnp/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-
>>>> mullins-new-
>>>> mexico-co_n_612482.html> told the AP on Monday he doesn't actually
>>>> think
>>>> land mines should be installed on the border.
>>>>
>>>> "I am not suggesting we do that," he said.
>>>>
>>>> Mullins' campaign website includes his
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11rqhhjiv/*http:/www.mullinsforcongress.com/issues-
>>>> immigration.html
>>>>> platform on immigration, in which he questions the guarantee of
>>>> citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil (a right conferred by the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=10m134hgm/*http:/bit.ly/cakqj0> 14th Amendment). "The
>>>> anchor baby
>>>> philosophy encourages additional illegal immigration; while legal
>>>> immigrants' children should receive U.S. citizenship, we must
>>>> question the
>>>> generous award of citizenship to those who break our laws," it  
>>>> says.
>>>> ("Anchor baby" is a derogatory term for a child born in the U.S.
>>>> to an
>>>> illegal immigrant.)
>>>>
>>>> New Mexico is about 45 percent Hispanic, according to the
>>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/ynews/pl_ynews/storytext/
>>>> ynews_pl2602/3654
>>>> 0788/SIG=11kt308bb/*http:/quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/
>>>> 35000.html> 2008
>>>> U.S. Census.
>>>>
>>>> ? Liz Goodwin is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>___________________________________ 
>>> __
>>> __________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:19 -0700
> From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com (Forest Grove local interests list)
> Message-ID: <16327-4C19602F-272 at storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you  
> must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put  
> the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0700
> From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <002f01cb0daf$952be1b0$bf83a510$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
>
> Alan,
>
>> From: Alan Domenghini
>>
>> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However,
>> you must have a more or less a description of a suspect car,
>> for if they put the just put out the description of the child,
>> the phones would probably never stop ringing.
>
> Yes, Oregon participates in the Amber Alert System.  Additionally,  
> there is
> specific criteria about the types of missing child situations that can
> utilize the Amber Alert System.  Here's more info on that for those
> interested.
>
> http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/AMBERALERT/program_criteria.shtml
>
>> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> Speaking of milk cartons, here's a story on the first child posted  
> on a milk
> carton.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/13/grace.coldcase.patz/index.html
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:33:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
> From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Message-ID: <4C197B53.000007.03504 at DON-B2514E06367>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> His pix is on posters at work, on the front and exit doors, in the  
> break
> room, and all three rest rooms.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Alan Domenghini
> Date: 06/16/10 16:37:27
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A New Subject......
>
> Mr Ed wrote ...
> I've a question. Nowhere have I seen any mention of the "amber alert"
> being utilized! If not, why not?
> I would think it would be the first thing considered!
> ======
> Ed .. I wonder if Oregon has the Amber Alert System..  However, you  
> must
> have a more or less a description of a suspect car, for if they put  
> the
> just put out the description of the child, the phones would probably
> never stop ringing.
>
> I wonder if they will put his pix on a milk carton..
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 29
> ****************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 13:37:21 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:37:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Context can only be extrapolated from scant dependable data. 

The words I am an Obama Scholar are found in the chant, in two of the videos


One chanted about Obama our savoir, our glorious leader, instead. 

That one was all over the Internet and on live TV for several days.

One video, and another not listed here, were aired several times a year or
so ago.

One million moms picked them up and went fruitcake and blamed the Education
Czar.

BUT 

So far the only blame I have seen points to the teachers, not to the people
who put them up to it. 
 
We saw this kind of video in three different schools, so this could be the
tip of the iceberg. 

That's all I remember.

Don
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/17/2010 1:06:16 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Pay no attention to the talking heads, but please
> watch the two videos and answer the question,
>
> "Is this what we should be teaching our kids?"
 
I think that's an impossible question to answer as we don't have adequate
context for the video.  Is this a regular classroom?  Is this a public
school or a private school?  Is this a school at all or a program for
troubled youth?
 
> I admit I agree with part, "Education is the answer",
> but the rest was disturbing.
 
Yes, it's alittle weird, I'll give you that.  However, I suspect that it was
edited intentionally to make it come off alittle weird.  With proper
context, it probably wouldn't come off so weird.
 
> I AM AN OBAMA SCHOLAR?
 
You didn't actually link to anything so I had to go find it myself.  Here's
what I found.
 
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/i-am-an-obama-scholar/
 
Is that what you're talking about?
 
Personally, I think it's much ado about nothing.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 17 13:49:36 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:49:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
In-Reply-To: <4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Context can only be extrapolated from scant
> dependable data.

Unfortunately, it can't.

> The words I am an Obama Scholar are found in the chant,
> in two of the videos.

I only found the one.

> One chanted about Obama our savoir, our glorious leader,
> instead.

I think that's the college student one you posted a few months back that was
also seriously lacking in context, but when viewed alongside this groups
stage act, it's clear they're practicing for something in the only video of
the two that was passed around the blogosphere with all the spurious claims
indoctrination and brainwashing.

> One video, and another not listed here, were aired
> several times a year or so ago.
> 
> One million moms picked them up and went fruitcake and
> blamed the Education Czar.

Yeah, I think that's the one that's claimed to be some sort of school
program for elementary/middle school students.  Fox aired it *many* months
after it originally happened and didn't do any due diligence on it.  If they
had, they'd have found that the lyrics had been sent home for parents to
review and none complained about it.  In other words, it's much about ado
about nothing.

> So far the only blame I have seen points to the teachers,
> not to the people who put them up to it.

A welcome bit of sanity on the issue.  I agree -- it's definitely an issue
with individuals rather than some massive shift in education requirements or
programs.

> We saw this kind of video in three different schools, so
> this could be the tip of the iceberg.

Somehow I doubt it.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 15:37:21 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:37:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Agreed that more than one school actually named would provide a way to
document.

Otherwise good luck finding the videos in the archives of liberal media,
perhaps in Fox news or CNN archives it could be found, if important enough
to find.
 
If even a thread of validity, the content would certainly be disturbing.
Brain washing kids is not my idea of a walk in the park.

Don

 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/17/2010 1:49:50 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Context can only be extrapolated from scant
> dependable data.
 
Unfortunately, it can't.
 
> The words I am an Obama Scholar are found in the chant,
> in two of the videos.
 
I only found the one.
 
> One chanted about Obama our savoir, our glorious leader,
> instead.
 
I think that's the college student one you posted a few months back that was
also seriously lacking in context, but when viewed alongside this groups
stage act, it's clear they're practicing for something in the only video of
the two that was passed around the blogosphere with all the spurious claims
indoctrination and brainwashing.
 
> One video, and another not listed here, were aired
> several times a year or so ago.
>
> One million moms picked them up and went fruitcake and
> blamed the Education Czar.
 
Yeah, I think that's the one that's claimed to be some sort of school
program for elementary/middle school students.  Fox aired it *many* months
after it originally happened and didn't do any due diligence on it.  If they
had, they'd have found that the lyrics had been sent home for parents to
review and none complained about it.  In other words, it's much about ado
about nothing.
 
> So far the only blame I have seen points to the teachers,
> not to the people who put them up to it.
 
A welcome bit of sanity on the issue.  I agree -- it's definitely an issue
with individuals rather than some massive shift in education requirements or
programs.
 
> We saw this kind of video in three different schools, so
> this could be the tip of the iceberg.
 
Somehow I doubt it.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From isis23ra at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 17 17:47:04 2010
From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Invite to walk, ride or watch Gay Pride Parade, Sun. 6/20
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2572.1276797384.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <311675.8404.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
?
You are invited to join UUCCWC (Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Wa. County) (www.uuccwc.org) and PFLAG (Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (http://www.grovenet.org/WesternWashingtonCounty/pflag/index.html ) of Forest Grove/Washington County in walking in the Portland Gay Pride?Parade!
?
When: Sunday, June 20.? Step off time is 11:30 AM but please show up earlier to help us decorate the vehicles!.
?
Where: UUCCWC is # 92 and PFLAG is # 93 in the parade line up - our set-up site is on NW Davis between NW 13th and NW 12th (closer to NW 13th) - go to http://www.pridenw.org/parade/stagingmap.pdf.?
?
The parade is about 1 mile long and takes about an hour to walk.? We will have vehicles for those who want to ride but not walk.? Or you can ride your bicycle.? 
?
AND we need WATCHERS - what's a parade with out some one to watch it?!? Bring your portable chairs and a camera and enjoy the show!
?
This is a FAMILY FRIENDLY EVENT!
?
If you need help getting to Portland, want to carpool or take the Max with others, please let me know asap.
?
For other questions, please refer to the website: http://www.pridenw.org/?or email me back.
?
Thanks and Happy Summer Solstice, Happy Father's Day and Happy Gay Pride 2010!
Alana

From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com  Thu Jun 17 21:47:49 2010
From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:47:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 67, Issue 31
Message-ID: <6B862A2750042CA4DADA4D2FD05ABC1C@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com>

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From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 22:06:09 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:06:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are sad that BP has to pay for fouling the
	gulf.
Message-ID: <01E138B9-D77C-4757-87A4-FAD9508764E7@verizon.net>

In case you missed it today, here is the text from Joe Barton's  
apology to BP in Congress. Evidently Joe is sad that BP has to pay  
for their damage. Awww, isn't that sweet? Joe thinks it is a tragedy  
that BP pays.
This on top of last week's Republican apologist Boehner saying that  
taxpayers should have to help BP pay.
I can only imagine a republican controlled congress letting every  
corporation off the hook for any negligence or recklessness the next  
time they get a chance


"I'm speaking now totally for myself. I'm not speaking for the  
Republican Party, I'm not speaking for anybody in the House of  
Representatives but myself. But I'm ashamed of what happened in the  
White House yesterday. I think it is a tragedy of the first  
proportion that a private corporation could be subjected to what I  
would characterize as a shakedown--in this case, a $20 billion  
shakedown--with the attorney general of the United States, who is  
legitimately conducting a criminal investigation, and has every right  
to do so to protect the interests of the American people,  
participating in what amounts to a $20 billion slush fund that's  
unprecedented in our nation's history, that's got no legal standing,  
and which sets, I think, a terrible precedent for the future ...  
There is no question that BP is liable for the damages. But we have a  
due process system where we go through hearings, in some cases court  
cases, litigation, and determine what those damages are and when  
those damages should be paid. So I'm only speaking for myself, I'm  
not speaking for anybody else, but I apologize. I do not want to live  
in a country where any time a citizen or a corporation does something  
that is legitimately wrong, he's subjected to some sort of political  
pressure that is again, in my words, amounts to a shakedown. So I  
apologize."

Link to text
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Rep-Barton- 
Apologizes-to-BP-1450

Link to Boehner:
http://www.businessinsider.com/boehner-bp-2010-6


Of course Boehner and Barton were reminded by their colleagues that  
this is political suicide so they tried to take back their words  
quickly but the theme is clear. Corporate apologists only believe in  
American exceptionalism if it means that corporations get off  
exceptionally easy when they screw the little guy.

Katie


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 22:19:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:19:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are sad that BP has to pay for fouling
	thegulf.
References: <01E138B9-D77C-4757-87A4-FAD9508764E7@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1B01C3.00009C.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

I saw it today Katie. It was all over. Even John McCain chipped in with an
objection.

With all this stuff boiling around, I don't know whether to be a democrat or
a republican. 

On balance, both parties are a sad lot. We should sweep all of them out of
office.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Katie Allnutt
Date: 6/17/2010 10:06:40 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are sad that BP has to pay for fouling
thegulf.
 
In case you missed it today, here is the text from Joe Barton's
apology to BP in Congress. Evidently Joe is sad that BP has to pay
for their damage. Awww, isn't that sweet? Joe thinks it is a tragedy
that BP pays.
This on top of last week's Republican apologist Boehner saying that
taxpayers should have to help BP pay.
I can only imagine a republican controlled congress letting every
corporation off the hook for any negligence or recklessness the next
time they get a chance
 
 
"I'm speaking now totally for myself. I'm not speaking for the
Republican Party, I'm not speaking for anybody in the House of
Representatives but myself. But I'm ashamed of what happened in the
White House yesterday. I think it is a tragedy of the first
proportion that a private corporation could be subjected to what I
would characterize as a shakedown--in this case, a $20 billion
shakedown--with the attorney general of the United States, who is
legitimately conducting a criminal investigation, and has every right
to do so to protect the interests of the American people,
participating in what amounts to a $20 billion slush fund that's
unprecedented in our nation's history, that's got no legal standing,
and which sets, I think, a terrible precedent for the future ...
There is no question that BP is liable for the damages. But we have a
due process system where we go through hearings, in some cases court
cases, litigation, and determine what those damages are and when
those damages should be paid. So I'm only speaking for myself, I'm
not speaking for anybody else, but I apologize. I do not want to live
in a country where any time a citizen or a corporation does something
that is legitimately wrong, he's subjected to some sort of political
pressure that is again, in my words, amounts to a shakedown. So I
apologize."
 
Link to text
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Rep-Barton-
Apologizes-to-BP-1450
 
Link to Boehner:
http://www.businessinsider.com/boehner-bp-2010-6
 
 
Of course Boehner and Barton were reminded by their colleagues that
this is political suicide so they tried to take back their words
quickly but the theme is clear. Corporate apologists only believe in
American exceptionalism if it means that corporations get off
exceptionally easy when they screw the little guy.
 
Katie
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 17 22:31:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:31:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Wall Street Journal finally  tells it like it is
Message-ID: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575310773636609374
html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_BelowLEFTSecond 

This is worse than we thought it would be.

Don
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 22:35:30 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:35:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wall Street Journal finally  tells it like it is
In-Reply-To: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <5CE3693F-4650-4F63-B541-35193C8663C4@verizon.net>

I just get an error page.

Katie

On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:31 PM, donkelly wrote:

> http://online.wsj.com/article/ 
> SB10001424052748704198004575310773636609374
> html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_BelowLEFTSecond


From christianamayer at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 22:59:05 2010
From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 22:59:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>

I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to make of 
it. 
http://www.businessinsider.com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil-spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-2010-6

Christiana


From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 23:13:35 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:13:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C08A6E49-733B-46EC-968B-AEE37E99C9A2@verizon.net>

Despite much comment to the contrary, President Obama is a middle of the road pro-Capitalist president.  He is willing to allow the free market companies as much latitude as possible to settle their problems with the minimum of government interference.

I would say that that is not the best approach to our world, but what else can you expect from a moderate?

If he was half of the strident, big government Socialist that he is frequently insulted, then he would be using this failure of big business ( big oil business ) to make sweeping changes in the system.  As it has been said, look at the actions.  Has he pulled the responsible parties off of the street into court or jail?  No.  Has he shouldered aside the responsible parties as they try to clean the mess?  No.  Has he requested legislation from Congress to nationalize the oil industry?  No.  Has he moved to shut down all off shore drilling?  No.  Has he hit oil products with a massive "cleanup tax"?  No.

This is the opportunity to invoke all of those "National Emergency" provisions that we were warned about.  Has he done so?  No.

Why NOT?

Because he isn't the monster that some would paint him.

David

On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote:

> I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to make of 
> it. 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil-spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-2010-6
> 
> Christiana
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 17 23:19:53 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:19:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Wall Street Journal finally  tells it like it is
In-Reply-To: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <023501cb0eae$44ab0c70$ce012550$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> This is worse than we thought it would be.

For those that couldn't get your link to work:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575310773636609374.ht
ml

To be clear, this isn't the WSJ finally telling it like it is.  No, this is
an op-ed piece by Bush-ite Karl Rove.  It's hardly what you'd call
hard-hitting, fact-based journalism.  Even the headline gives it away.
Well-meaning journalists don't refer to it as "ObamaCare".

Unfortunately, much of what he posits (notice he doesn't name any names so
people can't fact-check him) doesn't add up.  For example, the big company
that shells out $8,400/year would opt to instead drop coverage altogether
and only pay the $2,000/employee/year fine.  If that was the case, why
wouldn't they have dropped that $8,400/year coverage long ago and saved
themselves lots of money.  Well, the reality is the marketplace probably
demands that he offer it in order to attract the type of worker he needs to
be successful.  That marketplace demand isn't likely to go away.

Rove has been a very vocal detractor of health care reform all along.  So,
it's no wonder that he's looking for new angles to make it look bad.
Fortunately, none of what he says can be known to actually be true until the
changes actually start kicking in.  Only then will we be able to assess
whether it's a success or not, what parts are working, what parts aren't,
and what adjustments need to be made to make it work better.  The same thing
happened with social security and with Medicare.

Give it a few days and I'm sure the fact-checkers will have completed their
research and published a rebuttal to his nonsense.

Jeff



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 23:33:27 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:33:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <9B2881A2-C276-459B-8F51-4B647AAB0D95@verizon.net>

If the Missoula floods were 12,000 years ago, new evidence indicates that there were people in the Oregon territory to observe it.
http://news.opb.org/article/1735-u-o-archaeologist-finds-evidence-human-oregon-14000-years-ago/

Can you imagine what it must have been like to watch - from high ground, I hope.  Otherwise it would be like those campers in Arkansas - all gone.

The Gibbs and Starling map represents the Oregon tribes West of the Cascades in some detail.  It is a big document now, unless someone has a magic potion to reduce it without losing the detail.

The Washington Count portion is attached.

Not it isn't because it wouldn't send. It is 24 Mb and too large to send.

David


On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:55 AM, donkelly wrote:

> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In case others
> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my work. All
> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing with
> genealogy or history. 
> 
> 
> 
> This was started last month and will be under construction for another month
> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/ 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
> 
> 
> 
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content. 
> 
> 
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 23:35:04 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:35:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are sad that BP has to pay for fouling
	the	gulf.
In-Reply-To: <01E138B9-D77C-4757-87A4-FAD9508764E7@verizon.net>
References: <01E138B9-D77C-4757-87A4-FAD9508764E7@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <72D49D7A-BC96-46BF-A12B-D679E494458C@verizon.net>

Knee jerk republicans.

The party of "NO" is becoming the party of "Kow-tow".

David

On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:06 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> In case you missed it today, here is the text from Joe Barton's  
> apology to BP in Congress. Evidently Joe is sad that BP has to pay  
> for their damage. Awww, isn't that sweet? Joe thinks it is a tragedy  
> that BP pays.
> This on top of last week's Republican apologist Boehner saying that  
> taxpayers should have to help BP pay.
> I can only imagine a republican controlled congress letting every  
> corporation off the hook for any negligence or recklessness the next  
> time they get a chance



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 17 23:42:28 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:42:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Should all candidates prove they
	are	eligible to run for office?
In-Reply-To: <4C1A6AB8.00002D.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A6AB8.00002D.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <DE6FE853-B23C-4DD3-9C36-4A5872B05445@verizon.net>

How would he know where Obama was born?  More importantly, how would he know if Obama' s mother and father were legally married in Hawaii?  

Remember, Obama only needed to be born in Hawaii ( which Hawaii says, "he was" ), if his American mother was legally married to his bigamist father ( which she wasn't ).

Funny, how you never see a "Birther" claim to be able to prove that Stanley and Obama Sr. were legally married.  Especially when some of them claim that Obama's wife met Stanley in Kenya.

David

On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:34 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Here is the news. Documented. You read. You decide.
> 
> 
> Posted: June 16, 2010
> 9:11 PM Eastern
> By Joe Kovacs
> ? 2010 WorldNetDaily 
> 
> 
> The former Honolulu elections clerk who maintains President Obama was not
> born in Hawaii and has no birth certificate from any hospital in the Aloha
> State is promoting a simple way to resolve the uproar over eligibility, at
> least for the future.
> Tim Adams, 45, senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in the 2008 campaign, says all candidates for all offices should be required to prove their identity and eligibility before they can even run. _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 18 00:19:55 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:19:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
In-Reply-To: <4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>
	<4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <024701cb0eb6$a80bbf50$f8233df0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Agreed that more than one school actually named
> would provide a way to document.

Yeah, the only one I'm aware of that was named is the elementary school.

> Otherwise good luck finding the videos in the
> archives of liberal media, perhaps in Fox news
> or CNN archives it could be found, if important
> enough to find.

The only video that's been in *any* of the media was the elementary school.
The others have been buzzed around the blogosphere and on the various
opinion/entertainment/smear shows.

> If even a thread of validity, the content would
> certainly be disturbing. Brain washing kids is
> not my idea of a walk in the park.

I don't think teaching them to sing a particular song qualifies as brain
washing.

Brainwashing -- a process in which a group or individual "systematically
uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the
wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being
manipulated"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control

Brainwashing certainly, to me, sounds a lot more involved than the things
the reactionary media/bloggers refer to as brainwashing.

Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 04:26:34 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:26:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CE816184-8067-463F-9A41-5A5A39FAA3A4@verizon.net>

It would be good to have some of these questions answered.

As a skeptic one question to ask on lists like this is, who is doing  
the asking?
According to Wikipedia:
Henry Blodget (born 1966) is an American former equity research  
analyst, now barred from the securities industry because of  
fraudulent activity, who was senior Internet analyst for CIBC  
Oppenheimer during the dot-com bubble and the head of the global  
Internet research team at Merrill Lynch. Blodget is now the editor  
and CEO of The Business Insider, a business news and analysis site,  
and a host of Yahoo TechTicker, a finance show on Yahoo.

One question in particular is
Why is BP openly attempting to manipulate the search results on sites  
like Google and Yahoo.

I think the answer to that one is .... "Duh!"  Because they can.
This is a common practice for all search results and every  
corporation tries to do it for results that impact their business.  
(Good or bad).

Why are private security companies keeping the public off the beach?
There are multiple reasons.  The crap washing ashore is nasty stuff  
and people should wear protective gear to handle it. If the beaches  
were totally open crazy people would go swim in it so they could sue  
BP for damages. Regular people could innocently go down just for  
curiosity and wind up sick too.
And of course it helps BP control the media coverage.
For me, if it was 99% for safety and 1 % for corporate interests I  
wonder if BP isn't just doing it for the 1% that is in their own  
interest.  If it is 1% for safety and 99% for BP's interest, BP of  
course will just say it  is for safety.

Same with the air space. There is probably a scintilla of safety  
behind it, but mostly it is to control the information.

Corexit/Dead zones/methane/etc.
Since this is the biggest ecological disaster to date we won't know  
the full impact for a while. It will be worse than we can imagine in  
some areas and not as bad as we expect in others.  It is just that we  
don't know ahead of time which aspect is which.  But overall this is  
not called a disaster just for the fun of it.  It will get worse when  
hurricane season hits and millions of gallons of oil and chemicals  
are still all over the gulf.  We do not have the technology to deal  
with it yet. The only way we can develop the technology to deal with  
this is to practice these kinds of disasters.  And we should do  
everything we can to change our energy policy so we don't have to  
practice them every ten to twenty years.

Bottom line for me is this:
BP is trying to minimize their damages.
The vast majority of the workers (BP's and the government's) are  
trying to do their jobs the best they can because they live here and  
they care about the US, the gulf ecosystem, and all the damage that  
this has done to the average Joe.
Both political wings in this country are trying to a) make the other  
side look bad (easy to do for all sides), b) suck up to any and every  
corporate donor, and c) simultaneously make themselves look good to  
undecided voters.

That's just my two cents.
Perhaps more importantly though is what do you make of it?

Katie

On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote:

> I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to  
> make of
> it.
> http://www.businessinsider.com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil- 
> spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-2010-6
>
> Christiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun 18 06:07:53 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:07:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Why is Obamacare Unconstitutional?
In-Reply-To: <D22E46ED-5338-429C-B991-B0770C5AE5E0@verizon.net>
References: <4C19047B.00000D.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<D22E46ED-5338-429C-B991-B0770C5AE5E0@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1B6FA8.5090202@gmail.com>

It's more in the practice.  Without government you have competition.  
When the government enters the mix you lose competition.  The main 
reason is that government collects most of its money through taxes, 
fees, tariffs, basically a guaranteed revenue source.  Businesses making 
a product has to find investors, sell their product, no guaranteed 
revenue.  If you have guaranteed revenue generally you don't worry about 
the bottom line.  So if you are competing directly against the 
government in your industry, the government doesn't worry about what 
they charge for their product or care if they will make a profit, they 
still have money coming in from other sources.  The private business 
doesn't.  There is only so long you can run a business at a loss without 
enough revenue to come in, don't forget that payroll is your one expense 
that has to get paid otherwise you don't have employees.

This is why the government should be kept out of as many things as 
possible.  In a utopia government would not have to do anything.  I am a 
realist and understand that the government will run services, the 
question is how many?

Adam

David Morelli wrote:
> The question of whether the government should be allowed to run a corporation was raised by the founding fathers in the Constitutional Convention in their discussion of a National Bank.  They did not agree.  
>
> Because of the disagreement, there was no way that they could include anything in the Constitution on the subject of federal ownership of corporations beyond just payment when acquiring property.  Because there is nothing in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights concerning corporate rights, any claim for rights would represent a REVISION of the Constitution.
>
> There has never been any limits on the ability of the Federal government to buy and sell land, gold or other hard assets, e.g. the Louisiana Purchase.  The government has always owned and operated manufacturing facilities (arsenal & ship yards), e.g. the opening action of the American Civil war was the seizure of the Charleston Arsenal (gun and ammunition manufacture) for use against Fort Sumter.  The government has owned and operated military hospitals since 1812, and Army and Navy surgeons have offered federally funded medical care since the Revolutionary War.
>
> The concept that the federal government does not have the authority to own or operate a health care system is based upon a personal belief system that is not in concert with history.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 10:06 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>   
>> What do you folks think of this; is it constitutional or unconstitutional:
>>
>> ...
>> The government should not take over any private enterprise, except in time of national emergency, like a war, and to promptly return control the private enterprises seized to the owners when the emergency is over.
>>
>> It seems clear that the government, to defend America, would have to take a measure of control, like security, over enterprises like railroads, vehicle factories, aircraft factories, munitions factories, to make sure that the emergency is not permanent.
>>
>> Our government has taken over health care, and is dictating how to run companies associated with health care. There was no national emergency that would give the government reason to take over.
>>
>> The government should immediately return these assets to their owners, and stop dictating actions to American citizens not supported by the constitution. The good things can be accomplished very well, by market requirements, without operating under a virtual dictatorship.
>>
>> Two cents worth done. What are your opinions.
>>
>> Don
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Fri Jun 18 06:12:34 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:12:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Invite to walk, ride or watch Gay Pride Parade,
	Sun. 6/20
In-Reply-To: <311675.8404.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <311675.8404.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C1B70C2.9070807@gmail.com>

Don't forget to visit the booths in the park.  And stop by the Marc 
Delphine for US Senate booth, my wife and I will be there most of the 
weekend.

Adam

Alana Graham wrote:
> Dear All,
>  
> You are invited to join UUCCWC (Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Wa. County) (www.uuccwc.org) and PFLAG (Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (http://www.grovenet.org/WesternWashingtonCounty/pflag/index.html ) of Forest Grove/Washington County in walking in the Portland Gay Pride Parade!
>  
> When: Sunday, June 20.  Step off time is 11:30 AM but please show up earlier to help us decorate the vehicles!.
>  
> Where: UUCCWC is # 92 and PFLAG is # 93 in the parade line up - our set-up site is on NW Davis between NW 13th and NW 12th (closer to NW 13th) - go to http://www.pridenw.org/parade/stagingmap.pdf. 
>  
> The parade is about 1 mile long and takes about an hour to walk.  We will have vehicles for those who want to ride but not walk.  Or you can ride your bicycle.  
>  
> AND we need WATCHERS - what's a parade with out some one to watch it?!  Bring your portable chairs and a camera and enjoy the show!
>  
> This is a FAMILY FRIENDLY EVENT!
>  
> If you need help getting to Portland, want to carpool or take the Max with others, please let me know asap.
>  
> For other questions, please refer to the website: http://www.pridenw.org/ or email me back.
>  
> Thanks and Happy Summer Solstice, Happy Father's Day and Happy Gay Pride 2010!
> Alana
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun 18 06:36:49 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:36:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <9B2881A2-C276-459B-8F51-4B647AAB0D95@verizon.net>
References: <4C198296.000012.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006001cb0ddd$615190a0$23f4b1e0$@com>
	<4C19B95E.000044.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006601cb0de7$c1626a50$44273ef0$@com>
	<4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
	<9B2881A2-C276-459B-8F51-4B647AAB0D95@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BD0375DA-CA95-496A-B76E-3C071C81BC05@teleport.com>

I attended Jenkens' lecture at the FG library a couple of months ago,  
and managed to get in a few questions. A most interesting find,  
although this article about it is brief and not completely accurate.
One error was the description of the ancient people involved as "cave- 
dwellers," as the article labels them. They were occasional visitors,  
probably following a regular hunting and gathering route, and  
apparently stopped occasionally at the caves for a few days of  
catching fish from the nearby stream and lake (much larger in those  
days) and taking advantage of the shelter.  No human remains or other  
evidence of settled occupancy were discovered, only game and fish bones.
Since hunting and gathering cultures take a while to establish and  
tend to be stable, the people involved had probably already been in  
the area for many generations. Judging by some disputed evidence from  
South America, I wouldn't be at all surprised if humans had been in  
the New World for much, much longer, arriving in successive waves  
that may have left traces in the DNA record.
And there is no reason to suppose that immigration from the East  
stopped after the proto-Indians arrived.  Since some of the more  
interesting candidates for prehistoric immigration (Aleuts, Ainu,  
Polynesians, Chinese, early Japanese) would have been seacoast  
cultures, most of the physical evidence has probably been lost.
WW
On Jun 17, 2010, at 11:33 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> If the Missoula floods were 12,000 years ago, new evidence  
> indicates that there were people in the Oregon territory to observe  
> it.
> http://news.opb.org/article/1735-u-o-archaeologist-finds-evidence- 
> human-oregon-14000-years-ago/
>
> Can you imagine what it must have been like to watch - from high  
> ground, I hope.  Otherwise it would be like those campers in  
> Arkansas - all gone.
>
> The Gibbs and Starling map represents the Oregon tribes West of the  
> Cascades in some detail.  It is a big document now, unless someone  
> has a magic potion to reduce it without losing the detail.
>
> The Washington Count portion is attached.
>
> Not it isn't because it wouldn't send. It is 24 Mb and too large to  
> send.
>
> David
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 12:55 AM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In  
>> case others
>> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my  
>> work. All
>> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most  
>> dealing with
>> genealogy or history.
>>
>>
>>
>> This was started last month and will be under construction for  
>> another month
>> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>>
>>
>>
>> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web  
>> page
>> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun 18 06:56:37 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:56:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <CE816184-8067-463F-9A41-5A5A39FAA3A4@verizon.net>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
	<CE816184-8067-463F-9A41-5A5A39FAA3A4@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9D34066E-23C3-4304-8DF0-F07281024FFD@teleport.com>

Katie:
Agreed, we won't know how this will play out because we haven't seen  
a disaster of this exact sort before.  By latest estimates it may be  
the largest spill ever, certainly the largest at such depths, and  
with the plumes of pollution moving around at depth, we probably  
won't know the full extent of the damage for years to come. Certainly  
the hurricane season will give us some answers, probably grim ones,  
about the effects on fish and animal life.
One scary aspect is the matter of leaking gases, particularly  
methane. You'll notice that the first workers on the scene were  
forbidden to smoke. If a huge spurt of methane should ignite, a fuel/ 
air blast could wipe out anyone on the surface near the site, and  
even any aircraft overhead.
What I worry about is that BP will "poor-mouth" themselves and  
declare bankruptcy when the time comes to settle the account for the  
disaster, their assets will then be bought up wholesale by the other  
Big Oil companies, and that BP's guilty executives will remain  
comfortably in place, only changing the nameplates on their desks and  
the corporate logos on their office suites.
WW

On Jun 18, 2010, at 4:26 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> It would be good to have some of these questions answered.
>
> As a skeptic one question to ask on lists like this is, who is doing
> the asking?
> According to Wikipedia:
> Henry Blodget (born 1966) is an American former equity research
> analyst, now barred from the securities industry because of
> fraudulent activity, who was senior Internet analyst for CIBC
> Oppenheimer during the dot-com bubble and the head of the global
> Internet research team at Merrill Lynch. Blodget is now the editor
> and CEO of The Business Insider, a business news and analysis site,
> and a host of Yahoo TechTicker, a finance show on Yahoo.
>
> One question in particular is
> Why is BP openly attempting to manipulate the search results on sites
> like Google and Yahoo.
>
> I think the answer to that one is .... "Duh!"  Because they can.
> This is a common practice for all search results and every
> corporation tries to do it for results that impact their business.
> (Good or bad).
>
> Why are private security companies keeping the public off the beach?
> There are multiple reasons.  The crap washing ashore is nasty stuff
> and people should wear protective gear to handle it. If the beaches
> were totally open crazy people would go swim in it so they could sue
> BP for damages. Regular people could innocently go down just for
> curiosity and wind up sick too.
> And of course it helps BP control the media coverage.
> For me, if it was 99% for safety and 1 % for corporate interests I
> wonder if BP isn't just doing it for the 1% that is in their own
> interest.  If it is 1% for safety and 99% for BP's interest, BP of
> course will just say it  is for safety.
>
> Same with the air space. There is probably a scintilla of safety
> behind it, but mostly it is to control the information.
>
> Corexit/Dead zones/methane/etc.
> Since this is the biggest ecological disaster to date we won't know
> the full impact for a while. It will be worse than we can imagine in
> some areas and not as bad as we expect in others.  It is just that we
> don't know ahead of time which aspect is which.  But overall this is
> not called a disaster just for the fun of it.  It will get worse when
> hurricane season hits and millions of gallons of oil and chemicals
> are still all over the gulf.  We do not have the technology to deal
> with it yet. The only way we can develop the technology to deal with
> this is to practice these kinds of disasters.  And we should do
> everything we can to change our energy policy so we don't have to
> practice them every ten to twenty years.
>
> Bottom line for me is this:
> BP is trying to minimize their damages.
> The vast majority of the workers (BP's and the government's) are
> trying to do their jobs the best they can because they live here and
> they care about the US, the gulf ecosystem, and all the damage that
> this has done to the average Joe.
> Both political wings in this country are trying to a) make the other
> side look bad (easy to do for all sides), b) suck up to any and every
> corporate donor, and c) simultaneously make themselves look good to
> undecided voters.
>
> That's just my two cents.
> Perhaps more importantly though is what do you make of it?
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote:
>
>> I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to
>> make of
>> it.
>> http://www.businessinsider.com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil-
>> spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-2010-6
>>
>> Christiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 12:11:07 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:11:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Stimulus, the good and the bad
Message-ID: <4C1BC4BE.00000B.00720@DON-B2514E06367>

Stimulous packege of 590 million dollars for cascades railroads

Summary:

Washington state received 590 million unsolicited dollars to improve
railroads.

No strings were attached. 

The state asked the fed why. 

The fed says this is what the government wants to do. 

Please submit a list of what you will use it for.

State: All we need is two extra round trip trains to Portland Oregon daily.

Don
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 12:40:47 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:40:47 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C1BCBB8.000019.00720@DON-B2514E06367>

I read it Christina, and it covers similar ground covered by The Wall Street
Journal yesterday.

Sorry for that long broken link. I tried to fix it today, but it appears
that WSJ commentary was removed so not available today.

I agree we need answers, but there is no way to break each pro and con and
analyze each sufficient to even pose a question about.

BP should pay for the damages, beg or borrow what they need to do it, but
they gotta pay.

I have choice words for any D or R who feels sorry for them and permits them
to wiggle out of their responsibilities.

Having stuck my neck out again, I believe the two relief wells they are
drilling will significantly reduce the artesian pressure on the middle well
to enable them to cap it. I still cannot see from their images why they
cannot attach a BOP to the clean pipe, as I see it, and crush the pipe and
shut it down.

Don

 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Christiana Mayer
Date: 06/17/10 22:58:27
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
 
I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to make of
it.
http://www.businessinsider
com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil-spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-
010-6
 
Christiana
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 12:47:48 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:47:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
	<C08A6E49-733B-46EC-968B-AEE37E99C9A2@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1BCD64.00001E.00720@DON-B2514E06367>

I believe if I use the word, "indecisive" I won't get into much trouble. 

For verification, look back over past issues that required a timely or
immediate response. 

Did he respond in a reasonable length of time?

Did he ever respond quickly to any issue?

The right answer includes only two letters.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 06/17/10 23:14:43
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] BP
 
Despite much comment to the contrary, President Obama is a middle of the
road pro-Capitalist president.  He is willing to allow the free market
companies as much latitude as possible to settle their problems with the
minimum of government interference.
 
I would say that that is not the best approach to our world, but what else
can you expect from a moderate?
 
If he was half of the strident, big government Socialist that he is
frequently insulted, then he would be using this failure of big business (
big oil business ) to make sweeping changes in the system.  As it has been
said, look at the actions.  Has he pulled the responsible parties off of the
street into court or jail?  No.  Has he shouldered aside the responsible
parties as they try to clean the mess?  No.  Has he requested legislation
from Congress to nationalize the oil industry?  No.  Has he moved to shut
down all off shore drilling?  No.  Has he hit oil products with a massive 
cleanup tax"?  No.
 
This is the opportunity to invoke all of those "National Emergency"
provisions that we were warned about.  Has he done so?  No.
 
Why NOT?
 
Because he isn't the monster that some would paint him.
 
David
 
On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote:
 
> I found this article very interesting and was wondering what to make of
> it.
> http://www.businessinsider
com/16-burning-questions-about-the-oil-spill-that-we-deserve-some-answers-to-
010-6
>
> Christiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 12:53:49 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:53:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Wall Street Journal finally  tells it like it is
References: <4C1B0491.0000A1.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<023501cb0eae$44ab0c70$ce012550$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1BCECC.000023.00720@DON-B2514E06367>

So are you saying you have to try it to know if you like it; or put another
way, pass it before you can see what is in it.

I suspect you do not strongly support either trial, and just want the
unvarnished facts on every part to see if they are good or bad.

Carl Rove is very right to strongly question the whole thing, because it is
after all, very faulty, we might here say, very buggy.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/17/10 23:20:02
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Wall Street Journal finally tells it like it is
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> This is worse than we thought it would be.
 
For those that couldn't get your link to work:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704198004575310773636609374.ht
ml
 
To be clear, this isn't the WSJ finally telling it like it is.  No, this is
an op-ed piece by Bush-ite Karl Rove.  It's hardly what you'd call
hard-hitting, fact-based journalism.  Even the headline gives it away.
Well-meaning journalists don't refer to it as "ObamaCare".
 
Unfortunately, much of what he posits (notice he doesn't name any names so
people can't fact-check him) doesn't add up.  For example, the big company
that shells out $8,400/year would opt to instead drop coverage altogether
and only pay the $2,000/employee/year fine.  If that was the case, why
wouldn't they have dropped that $8,400/year coverage long ago and saved
themselves lots of money.  Well, the reality is the marketplace probably
demands that he offer it in order to attract the type of worker he needs to
be successful.  That marketplace demand isn't likely to go away.
 
Rove has been a very vocal detractor of health care reform all along.  So,
it's no wonder that he's looking for new angles to make it look bad.
Fortunately, none of what he says can be known to actually be true until the
changes actually start kicking in.  Only then will we be able to assess
whether it's a success or not, what parts are working, what parts aren't,
and what adjustments need to be made to make it work better.  The same thing
happened with social security and with Medicare.
 
Give it a few days and I'm sure the fact-checkers will have completed their
research and published a rebuttal to his nonsense.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 18 13:51:43 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:51:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <4C1BCBB8.000019.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>
	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com> <4C1BCBB8.000019.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <000101cb0f28$0ffcb800$2ff62800$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> [...] I still cannot see from their images why they cannot
> attach a BOP to the clean pipe, as I see it, and crush the
> pipe and shut it down.

I believe they *can* do exactly that but will not because they are still
interested in making money off the well.  You'll notice that all the
attempts they made from the very beginning until now (with the exception of
the "Top Kill" method) were aimed at capturing the spewing oil, not stopping
it.  It's entirely likely that they knew the "Top Kill" method wouldn't
work, but were using it to show a good faith effort to stop it.

Despite the enormity of the spill, there's still very good reason for them
to not actually stop it, but to find a way to capture what it's producing.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 18 13:54:26 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:54:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
In-Reply-To: <4C1BCD64.00001E.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
	<C08A6E49-733B-46EC-968B-AEE37E99C9A2@verizon.net>
	<4C1BCD64.00001E.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <000401cb0f28$71045950$530d0bf0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> For verification, look back over past issues that
> required a timely or immediate response.
> 
> Did he respond in a reasonable length of time?
> 
> Did he ever respond quickly to any issue?
> 
> The right answer includes only two letters.

If you believe the past issues were simple matters with potentially simple
answers, solutions, or responses, then I'd agree that the correct answer is
no.  However, to characterize *any* of the past issues as simple wouldn't be
an accurate portrayal of the circumstances.  With that in mind, I believe
he's done a reasonable job in most cases, and an incredible job in a few.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 18 14:44:26 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:44:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Second Republican Demands Barton Step Down From Energy
	Post
Message-ID: <002c01cb0f2f$6db9be00$492d3a00$@com>

Second Republican Demands Barton Step Down From Energy Post
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/second-republican-demands-barton-
step-down-from-energy-post.php?ref=fpi
June 18, 2010 by Rachel Slajda

A second Republican Congressman has asked
<http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/18/second-republican-calls-on-
barton-to-quit-leadership-post/?fbid=TOdr4GNwYB_>  Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) to
resign as ranking member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee after
Barton apologized to BP yesterday. 

Rep. Jo Bonner, who represents an Alabama coastal district, said in a
statement
<http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2010/06/rep-jo-bonners-statement
-calling-for-rep-joe-barton-to-resign-committee-post.php?page=1>  that
Barton should step down. 

"We all make mistakes and I don't know anyone who hasn't said something at
one time or 
another that he wished he hadn't said," the statement begins. Bonner said
that Barton called him this morning to personally apologize. 

"It takes a big person to admit they were wrong and I appreciated Joe's
call. However, as I told him, I believe the damage of his comments are
beyond repair and, as such, I am today calling on Joe to do the right thing
for our conference and immediately step aside as Ranking Member of the
Energy and Commerce Committee," Bonner wrote. 

Republican leadership yesterday threatened Barton, saying they'd revoke his
post if he didn't apologize. But they won't say his position is safe: "We'll
see what happens," one GOP aide tells TPMDC. 

Bonner also called Barton's comments "stupid and extremely insensitive to
the hundreds of thousands of people who live along the Gulf Coast -- many in
my district." 

Barton yesterday apologized to BP CEO Tony Hayward during a committee
hearing, calling the company's $20 billion escrow fund a government
"shakedown." He later apologized for calling it a shakedown and retracted
his apology. 

Bonner called it "at best a half-hearted apology" designed to "save his
position on one of the most influential committees in Congress." 

Another Republican from a district affected by the oil spill, Rep. Jeff
Miller (R-FL), yesterday called for Barton to resign his post.


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 18 14:44:26 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:44:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was
	That 'Scandal' All About?
Message-ID: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>

I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion
of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN,
despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.

Jeff

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was That 'Scandal' All
About
http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdoi
ng_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/?page=entire
June 17, 2010 by John Atlas

On Monday, June 14, a preliminary probe by the U.S.
<http://www.gao.gov/daybook/100614.htm%20>  Government Accountability Office
(GAO)of ACORN has found no evidence the association or related organizations
mishandled the $40 million in federal money they received in recent years.

A review of grants by nine federal agencies found no problems with ACORN's
grants. In my book Seeds <http://www.amazon.com/John-Atlas/e/B002QNVLA2%20>
of Change I document how ACORN, the largest most successful national anti
poverty organization in America, was forced to close its door. 

The GAO interviewed and obtained documentation from grant program managers
and staff from nine agencies; NeighborWorks, the Election Assistance
Commission (EAC), the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Department of the Treasury
(Treasury), and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Department of
Homeland Security and (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Most of the grants were
for housing-related purposes during fiscal years 2005 through 2009.

The GAO, an independent, nonpartisan agency that works for Congress, is
often called the "congressional watchdog." It investigates how the federal
government spends taxpayer dollars.

Nearly two dozen members of Congress requested an investigation after a
series of complaints against ACORN and its affiliates. The complaints
included an embezzlement matter, several cases of voter registration fraud,
and the release of edited and misleading videotapes, secretly made by
conservative activists that appeared to implicate ACORN workers in several
offices facilitating prostitution. In fact the staff in most of ACORN's
offices turned the pair away, reported the couple to the police, refused to
provide them any aid, and in one case tried to convince the phony prostitute
to get counseling. In no ACORN office did employees file any paperwork or do
anything illegal on the duo's behalf.

But Fox News broadcasted the deceptive tapes nearly around the clock for
several days defaming ACORN.

While Republicans in Congress, who for years had accused ACORN of
corruption, used the phony tapes to lead an effort to successfully strip the
group of federal funding in 2009. Months later the group was exonerated from
any wrongdoing by every official and independent investigation.

After the broadcast of the videotapes on Fox and CNN, the New York Times and
Washington Post inaccurately reported that the ACORN workers in several
offices facilitated prostitution. The papers also reported that O'Keefe was
dressed up in a cartoonish pimp garb when he entered the ACORN offices, when
he actually wore a dress shirt and slacks and identified himself as a
student or friend of the young woman who posed as a prostitute. As a result
of the conservative's smear campaign and the media's erroneous reporting of
the smears as true, the U. S. Congress defunded ACORN, which led to many of
its funders and allies to withdraw their support.

An independent investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office and
the Attorney General of California vindicated ACORN of any wrongdoing. A
federal judge ruled that the law barring the group's receipt of federal
funds was unconstitutional. I capture the story of this incident as well as
the history ACORN, in my new book, Seeds of Change, The Story of ACORN,
America's most
<http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdo
ing_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/Amazon.com%20http:/www.amazon.c
om/Seeds-Change-Controversial-Antipoverty-Organizing/dp/0826517064%20and%20V
anderbilt%20University%20Press%20http:/www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/boo
ks/387/seeds-of-change>  controversial anti-poverty community organizing
group.

One of the activists, James O'Keefe recently pleaded guilty to charges of
entering federal property under false pretenses when he attempted to
embarrass Senator Mary Landrieu because of her support for national health
care legislation.


From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 15:51:02 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:51:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 Was	That 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
Message-ID: <2B989D63-C689-479C-B0CC-EF7B02D248F3@verizon.net>

While on the surface this is good news that the truth has been proven  
and ACORN did nothing to warrant all the false accusation, the bad  
news is they will never be made whole again.

I remember an incident a few years back where a thief was being  
chased by a good samaritan. When the police came on the scene they  
misidentified the good samaritan, put him in a choke hold to control  
him and he died.  Well, it isn't going to bring him back to life when  
you say, oops I thought you were the bad guy, sorry.

In this case, even if the feds bring back funding for ACORN the  
private donor and allies will still be spooked by the bad press and  
won't return to their previous level of funding. And note that even  
though the courts have said that it was not right to defund them, no  
article is saying that the funding will be stored.  Even if congress  
tried to restore funding, there would be senators who would put holds  
on it, blocking it from being approved.

So helping poor folks avoid bankruptcy, steering folks to jobs,  
getting them involved in voting so they can have a say in their own  
government (the kind of things that Jesus would approve of) will go  
undone.
None of this was even a mistake on the part of the conservative noise  
machine.  It was done deliberately, not just deceptively.
Anti poverty groups like ACORN are targeted because when poor people  
figure out their rights, they can be manipulated as easily.
And like the other article below says, vindication and proof that you  
are innocent of all the charges doesn't pay the bills.

Good for the courts in March  and good for the GAO in your article  
Jeff, but there is still a long way to go.

Katie

http://www.acorn.org/node/693

Vindication Doesn't Pay the Bills

21 MARCH 2010
ACORN CEO Bertha Lewis said in statement released on Saturday, March  
20th:

For 40 years ACORN has been committed to fighting for its members and  
improving the lives of the most vulnerable Americans. The ACORN  
Association Board is meeting (by phone) this weekend will be making  
some very tough decisions about the future of their organization.

ACORN has faced a series of well-orchestrated, relentless, well- 
funded right wing attacks that are unprecedented since the McCarthy  
era. Our effective work empowering African American and low-income  
voters made us a target. The videos were a manufactured, sensational  
story that led to rush to judgment and an unconstitutional act by  
Congress.

For ACORN as a national organization, our vindication on the facts  
doesn't necessarily pay the bills. I know that ACORN's dedicated  
community members will continue to speak out for justice and organize  
in their communities.

Background:
ACORN, a national network of community organizations has conducted  
campaigns to win living wages for low income workers; an end to  
predatory financial practices and foreclosures; decent and affordable  
housing, for first time homebuyers and tenants; better public  
schools; voting rights; a path to citizenship for new immigrants to  
this country; and an equitable response to natural disasters such as  
Katrina.

The organization came under attack from Republicans after it helped  
millions of mostly minority and low-income citizens apply to register  
to vote in recent years. The attacks escalated in September, 2009  
after a video sting operation by conservative activists led to a  
Congressional vote to "defund" the group. The controversy sapped the  
organization's resources and hampered its fundraising. On March 1,  
2010 Brooklyn prosecutors on Monday cleared ACORN of criminal  
wrongdoing after a four-month probe triggered by the films produced  
by undercover conservative activists. "They edited the tape to meet  
their agenda," a source in the District Attorney's office told the  
New York Daily News.

On March 10th Federal judge Nina Gershon again declared  
unconstitutional the federal law which blacklisted ACORN and allied  
organizations. The judge ordered government to make it clear the  
funding isn't blocked. Last year an independent report by former  
Massachusetts Attorney General Scott Harshbarger examining the  
undercover videos filmed in offices of the national anti-poverty  
group ACORN states the employees portrayed in the videos did not  
engage in any illegal activity. Another study by the Congressional  
Research Service cleared the group of charges leveled by right wing  
activist hostile to its voter registration work and stated that there  
were no instances were identified in which ACORN "violated the terms  
of federal funding in the last five years."



On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change  
> the opinion
> of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN,
> despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
>
> Jeff
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was That  
> 'Scandal' All
> About
> http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/ 
> acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdoi
> ng_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/?page=entire
> June 17, 2010 by John Atlas
>
> On Monday, June 14, a preliminary probe by the U.S.
> <http://www.gao.gov/daybook/100614.htm%20>  Government  
> Accountability Office
> (GAO)of ACORN has found no evidence the association or related  
> organizations
> mishandled the $40 million in federal money they received in recent  
> years.
>
> A review of grants by nine federal agencies found no problems with  
> ACORN's
> grants. In my book Seeds <http://www.amazon.com/John-Atlas/e/ 
> B002QNVLA2%20>
> of Change I document how ACORN, the largest most successful  
> national anti
> poverty organization in America, was forced to close its door.
>
> The GAO interviewed and obtained documentation from grant program  
> managers
> and staff from nine agencies; NeighborWorks, the Election Assistance
> Commission (EAC), the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), the
> Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Department of the Treasury
> (Treasury), and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA),  
> Department of
> Homeland Security and (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the
> Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Most of the  
> grants were
> for housing-related purposes during fiscal years 2005 through 2009.
>
> The GAO, an independent, nonpartisan agency that works for  
> Congress, is
> often called the "congressional watchdog." It investigates how the  
> federal
> government spends taxpayer dollars.
>
> Nearly two dozen members of Congress requested an investigation  
> after a
> series of complaints against ACORN and its affiliates. The complaints
> included an embezzlement matter, several cases of voter  
> registration fraud,
> and the release of edited and misleading videotapes, secretly made by
> conservative activists that appeared to implicate ACORN workers in  
> several
> offices facilitating prostitution. In fact the staff in most of  
> ACORN's
> offices turned the pair away, reported the couple to the police,  
> refused to
> provide them any aid, and in one case tried to convince the phony  
> prostitute
> to get counseling. In no ACORN office did employees file any  
> paperwork or do
> anything illegal on the duo's behalf.
>
> But Fox News broadcasted the deceptive tapes nearly around the  
> clock for
> several days defaming ACORN.
>
> While Republicans in Congress, who for years had accused ACORN of
> corruption, used the phony tapes to lead an effort to successfully  
> strip the
> group of federal funding in 2009. Months later the group was  
> exonerated from
> any wrongdoing by every official and independent investigation.
>
> After the broadcast of the videotapes on Fox and CNN, the New York  
> Times and
> Washington Post inaccurately reported that the ACORN workers in  
> several
> offices facilitated prostitution. The papers also reported that  
> O'Keefe was
> dressed up in a cartoonish pimp garb when he entered the ACORN  
> offices, when
> he actually wore a dress shirt and slacks and identified himself as a
> student or friend of the young woman who posed as a prostitute. As  
> a result
> of the conservative's smear campaign and the media's erroneous  
> reporting of
> the smears as true, the U. S. Congress defunded ACORN, which led to  
> many of
> its funders and allies to withdraw their support.
>
> An independent investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney's  
> office and
> the Attorney General of California vindicated ACORN of any  
> wrongdoing. A
> federal judge ruled that the law barring the group's receipt of  
> federal
> funds was unconstitutional. I capture the story of this incident as  
> well as
> the history ACORN, in my new book, Seeds of Change, The Story of  
> ACORN,
> America's most
> <http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/ 
> acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdo
> ing_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/Amazon.com%20http:/ 
> www.amazon.c
> om/Seeds-Change-Controversial-Antipoverty-Organizing/dp/0826517064% 
> 20and%20V
> anderbilt%20University%20Press%20http:/ 
> www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/boo
> ks/387/seeds-of-change>  controversial anti-poverty community  
> organizing
> group.
>
> One of the activists, James O'Keefe recently pleaded guilty to  
> charges of
> entering federal property under false pretenses when he attempted to
> embarrass Senator Mary Landrieu because of her support for national  
> health
> care legislation.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 22:34:40 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:34:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 Was	That 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
Message-ID: <0052F5FD-874A-4D99-ABD2-5AA0F5C03690@verizon.net>

Jeff,

I will go out on a limb on this one.  I predict that Don will not change his previous attitude toward ACORN.

I do realize that I am on thin ice here.  But, I have to go with by instincts.

I predict that Don won't accept the court or the GAO on this.

David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN, despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
> 
> Jeff



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 22:40:39 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:40:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 Was	That 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <0052F5FD-874A-4D99-ABD2-5AA0F5C03690@verizon.net>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
	<0052F5FD-874A-4D99-ABD2-5AA0F5C03690@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <000001cb0f71$f3d53b30$db7fb190$@net>

I'd have to say "totally vindicated" is a stretch.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 10:35 PM
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing --
> What Was That 'Scandal' All About?
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> I will go out on a limb on this one.  I predict that Don will not
> change his previous attitude toward ACORN.
> 
> I do realize that I am on thin ice here.  But, I have to go with by
> instincts.
> 
> I predict that Don won't accept the court or the GAO on this.
> 
> David
> 
> On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
> 
> > I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the
> opinion of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about
> ACORN, despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their
> ilk.
> >
> > Jeff
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 22:49:10 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:49:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Stimulus, the good and the bad
In-Reply-To: <4C1BC4BE.00000B.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1BC4BE.00000B.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <C018A752-4543-486B-8F8C-DE24C78DD1B0@verizon.net>

Don's Research Grade
Interest: B
Accuracy: D
Documentation: F

Suggested background reading:
Federal Program:
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/28/high-speed-rail-grants-announced-california-florida-and-illinois-are-lucky-recipients/

Washington summary:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Funding/stimulus/passengerrail.htm

Discussion of the Washington State application ( yes, they did apply before the grant was decided ):
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/598F842E-0CEC-4271-B3C7-FE33B67767FD/0/WSDOTSummaryTrack1Projects_Summary.pdf
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/B4908004-3371-4784-A12F-33DCF0551438/0/WSDOTTrack2Summary.pdf

David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 12:11 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Stimulous packege of 590 million dollars for cascades railroads
> 
> Summary:
> Washington state received 590 million unsolicited dollars to improve railroads.
> No strings were attached. 
> 
> The state asked the fed why. 
> The fed says this is what the government wants to do. 
> Please submit a list of what you will use it for.
> State: All we need is two extra round trip trains to Portland Oregon daily.
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 22:52:39 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:52:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 Was That 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <000001cb0f71$f3d53b30$db7fb190$@net>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
	<0052F5FD-874A-4D99-ABD2-5AA0F5C03690@verizon.net>
	<000001cb0f71$f3d53b30$db7fb190$@net>
Message-ID: <57322348-4E42-40E9-A8EF-EAA52DB4AAF5@verizon.net>

I'll bite.  What accusation still has any possibility of merit?

David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 10:40 PM, Steven wrote:

> I'd have to say "totally vindicated" is a stretch.


From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 18 23:28:49 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:28:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Why is Obamacare Unconstitutional?
In-Reply-To: <4C1B6FA8.5090202@gmail.com>
References: <4C19047B.00000D.02520@DON-B2514E06367>
	<D22E46ED-5338-429C-B991-B0770C5AE5E0@verizon.net>
	<4C1B6FA8.5090202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5108450D-37C5-4CD5-8E4F-486931F5C0B5@verizon.net>

The question offered was "constitutional or unconstitutional?"

While you may ( or may not ) have more competition in a market that doesn't have government activity, that wasn't the subject of the response.  The federal medical program is fully constitutional, based upon my understanding of prior court decisions.

I see an interesting pair of arguments against government activity in a market
A. Government is naturally inefficient and cannot deliver product at the lowest price, while private competition will deliver the best product at the lowest price.
B.  Government competition is unfair because government will deliver products and services at a lower price than the private competition which will drive them out of the market.

I would suggest that in those markets, where one one player has more than 20% market share, or where there is less than thousands of buyers and seller, isn't a competitive market to start with.

There may be thousands of doctors and hundreds of clinics vying for the attention of a few million health care customers.  But in the middle, there are half a dozen health insurance companies that control the market.  They use their economic power to dictate to providers and to the people and companies that purchase health insurance.

Can you as a single individual find sufficient investors who would bankroll you to set up an organization capable of competing with Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Oregon?  Not likely.  Any new source of competition would come from a similar sized or larger outside organization that was interested in entering the Oregon market.

The state of Oregon considered offering competition, and they met with arguments A and B simultaneously.

David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> It's more in the practice.  Without government you have competition.  
> When the government enters the mix you lose competition.  The main 
> reason is that government collects most of its money through taxes, 
> fees, tariffs, basically a guaranteed revenue source.  Businesses making 
> a product has to find investors, sell their product, no guaranteed 
> revenue.  If you have guaranteed revenue generally you don't worry about 
> the bottom line.  So if you are competing directly against the 
> government in your industry, the government doesn't worry about what 
> they charge for their product or care if they will make a profit, they 
> still have money coming in from other sources.  The private business 
> doesn't.  There is only so long you can run a business at a loss without 
> enough revenue to come in, don't forget that payroll is your one expense 
> that has to get paid otherwise you don't have employees.
> 
> This is why the government should be kept out of as many things as 
> possible.  In a utopia government would not have to do anything.  I am a 
> realist and understand that the government will run services, the 
> question is how many?
> 
> Adam



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 18 23:43:19 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:43:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>	<016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>
	<4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<024701cb0eb6$a80bbf50$f8233df0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1C6704.00000A.02320@DON-B2514E06367>

Looks like that is the plan, brainwash the kids.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/18/10 00:20:07
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Agreed that more than one school actually named
> would provide a way to document.
 
Yeah, the only one I'm aware of that was named is the elementary school.
 
> Otherwise good luck finding the videos in the
> archives of liberal media, perhaps in Fox news
> or CNN archives it could be found, if important
> enough to find.
 
The only video that's been in *any* of the media was the elementary school.
The others have been buzzed around the blogosphere and on the various
opinion/entertainment/smear shows.
 
> If even a thread of validity, the content would
> certainly be disturbing. Brain washing kids is
> not my idea of a walk in the park.
 
I don't think teaching them to sing a particular song qualifies as brain
washing.
 
Brainwashing -- a process in which a group or individual "systematically
uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the
wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being
manipulated"
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control
 
Brainwashing certainly, to me, sounds a lot more involved than the things
the reactionary media/bloggers refer to as brainwashing.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 00:04:34 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:04:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
In-Reply-To: <4C1C6704.00000A.02320@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>
	<4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<024701cb0eb6$a80bbf50$f8233df0$@com>
	<4C1C6704.00000A.02320@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <CBB6F1CA-5C3A-4574-A6FB-0D44E581E60A@verizon.net>

Then let them listen to Rush.

David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 11:43 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Looks like that is the plan, brainwash the kids.
> 
> Don 


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Sat Jun 19 02:58:22 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 02:58:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Is this the way to educate our kids?
In-Reply-To: <4C1C6704.00000A.02320@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1A7175.00003B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<014101cb0e58$82a3e0c0$87eba240$@com>
	<4C1A877D.000054.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<016f01cb0e5e$9a3dfee0$ceb9fca0$@com>
	<4C1AA39E.00005F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>
	<024701cb0eb6$a80bbf50$f8233df0$@com>
	<4C1C6704.00000A.02320@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <009101cb0f95$f4d318d0$de794a70$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Looks like that is the plan, brainwash the kids.

That you can say that *in spite of* evidence to the contrary is very
telling.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 08:15:33 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 08:15:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
	<4C1BCBB8.000019.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
	<000101cb0f28$0ffcb800$2ff62800$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1CDF10.000011.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff,

As an after thought, understanding the BOP function as I tested and
calibrated them in Alaska, I note that the well casing emerges from the sea
floor at an odd angle, which suggests it may be weakened below the sea floor
 Therefore should they successfully deploy the BOP, the pressure build up
could rupture the casing below the sea floor, making it impossible, by
normal methods, to stop the flow.

The so called top catch method could work, but the bell would have to be
very heavy and rest on a flat spot on the ocean floor. There appears to be a
lot of junk down there which, if not cleared away from the casing, could
prevent a good seal to the sea bed.

I believe BP wants to stop the leak. It makes no sense to let 90% of the oil
escape for a possible profit, but most likely a loss, on the 10% of the oil
that they manage to capture.

The two relief wells may provide the solution to, in concert with other
technologies, stopping the leak and capturing the oil that has not escaped.

Finally, a well engineered BOP has a main hydraulic system and two redundant
systems, all controlled by separate pilot valves, which all had to fail, if
indeed it was the BOP that failed. The improbability of total failure is
enormous. 

Thanks

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/18/2010 1:51:52 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] BP
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> [...] I still cannot see from their images why they cannot
> attach a BOP to the clean pipe, as I see it, and crush the
> pipe and shut it down.
 
I believe they *can* do exactly that but will not because they are still
interested in making money off the well.  You'll notice that all the
attempts they made from the very beginning until now (with the exception of
the "Top Kill" method) were aimed at capturing the spewing oil, not stopping
it.  It's entirely likely that they knew the "Top Kill" method wouldn't
work, but were using it to show a good faith effort to stop it.
 
Despite the enormity of the spill, there's still very good reason for them
to not actually stop it, but to find a way to capture what it's producing.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 08:48:30 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 08:48:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Disclosure Act, congressional  vote delayed
Message-ID: <4C1CE6C4.000024.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

From what I have heard about this bill, on the large side it attempts to set
aside a recent supreme court decision governing campaign funding, while on
the down side limiting free speech rights of people running for election,
among other issues, prohibiting people standing for election from mentioning
the voting records of their opponents.

Considering the biased summary below <GRIN>, what do members see as pro's
and con's of this bill?
Second, why are the democrats pushing this bill so hard?
Are they afraid of social political action groups sneaking up behind them?
Are they trying to stomp out the oppositions?
How would this affect our rights under the second amendment? 

Don



From: Luke O'Dell - National Association for Gun Rights
Date: 6/18/2010 12:12:33 PM
To: Capt Don Kelly
Subject: Temporary Victory
     
 
Dear Capt Don,

I?m happy to report that we?ve scored an important, albeit temporary,
victory.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had planned to force a vote on the outrageous
DISCLOSE Act -- which could silence the National Association for Gun Rights
and hundreds of other conservative groups not protected by the NRA's sellout
-- today.

But over the last three days politicians and the NRA got a thumping from
liberty-loving folks like you!

Now Politico.com is reporting that Pelosi has pulled the DISCLOSE Act off
the calendar and there will not be a vote today.

 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 09:28:37 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 09:28:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: What do the Tea Party believe?
Message-ID: <4C1CF01C.000036.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

Good morning fellow listers,

Many of the democratic party, and the republican party, hold negative views
of this socio-political group, but grudgingly admit they are politically
effective. 

For the interested, below they have a web page with a list of some of their
favorite issues. They don't take many prisoners.

I hope you enjoy the look into their activities, on balance with negative
reports, and outright lies, from various liberal media.

Don

From: Tea Party Patriots
Date: 6/18/2010 12:58:52 PM
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: Exclusive information on Steaming Tea today
 
Tea Party Patriots
Official Home of the American Tea Party Movement

A message to all members of Tea Party Patriots
Friday's show is not recommended for people with high blood pressure. 
The Brazen Three have exclusive information on 3rd party funding that's 
VERY suspect, an in-depth look at oil spill cleanup efforts (or the lack 
Of them) and a large victory for the Tea Party Patriots. Tune in LIVE from
4-5pm eastern or listen around the house with archived shows.


Visit Tea Party Patriots at: http://teapartypatriots.ning
com/?xg_source=msg_mes_network
New Thread
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 09:47:28 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 09:47:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] BP
References: <mailman.2605.1276837596.1072.grovenet@rdrop.com>	<4C1B0B29.10404@gmail.com>
	<C08A6E49-733B-46EC-968B-AEE37E99C9A2@verizon.net>	<4C1BCD64.00001E.00720@DON-B2514E06367>
	<000401cb0f28$71045950$530d0bf0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1CF49B.00003B.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff,

I'll give that he is a charismatic speaker, and if one can get past the pure
ambiance of his speeches, one can put into context, and truly understand
what hi's message. Without a tele prompter he makes a lot of mistakes. An
extemporaneous speaker he is not.

Don
 

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/18/2010 1:54:35 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] BP
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> For verification, look back over past issues that
> required a timely or immediate response.
>
> Did he respond in a reasonable length of time?
>
> Did he ever respond quickly to any issue?
>
> The right answer includes only two letters.
 
If you believe the past issues were simple matters with potentially simple
answers, solutions, or responses, then I'd agree that the correct answer is
no.  However, to characterize *any* of the past issues as simple wouldn't be
an accurate portrayal of the circumstances.  With that in mind, I believe
he's done a reasonable job in most cases, and an incredible job in a few.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 09:54:18 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 09:54:18 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Ancient history
Message-ID: <4C1CF636.000042.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

http://www.battle1066.com/intro.shtml For those who have time.

The battle England lost to a foreign power, The Normans.

A web site very well done. I wish I owned that skill set.

Don
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 10:04:41 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:04:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Second Republican Demands Barton Step Down From
	EnergyPost
References: <002c01cb0f2f$6db9be00$492d3a00$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1CF8A0.000047.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

And so he should resign Jeff <IMHO>. He gives new meaning to the title 
Dufus.' 

Also today, Media wise, there are other things going on that are equally
despicable.

"Obama Administration Wants Govt Control of Media


Jun 17, 2010 

Jon Leibowitz, the chairman of Obama's Federal Trade Commission, is at the
epicenter of a quiet movement to subsidize news organizations, a first step
toward government control of the media.

In our book, 2010: Take Back America a Battle Plan, we reported that he had.
."
CLICK HERE FOR THE FULL STORY 


Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/18/2010 2:44:37 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: [Grovenet] Second Republican Demands Barton Step Down From
EnergyPost
 
Second Republican Demands Barton Step Down From Energy Post
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/second-republican-demands-barton-
step-down-from-energy-post.php?ref=fpi
June 18, 2010 by Rachel Slajda
 
A second Republican Congressman has asked
<http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/18/second-republican-calls-on-
barton-to-quit-leadership-post/?fbid=TOdr4GNwYB_>  Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) to
resign as ranking member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee after
Barton apologized to BP yesterday.
 
Rep. Jo Bonner, who represents an Alabama coastal district, said in a
statement
<http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2010/06/rep-jo-bonners-statement
-calling-for-rep-joe-barton-to-resign-committee-post.php?page=1>  that
Barton should step down.
 
"We all make mistakes and I don't know anyone who hasn't said something at
one time or
another that he wished he hadn't said," the statement begins. Bonner said
that Barton called him this morning to personally apologize.
 
"It takes a big person to admit they were wrong and I appreciated Joe's
call. However, as I told him, I believe the damage of his comments are
beyond repair and, as such, I am today calling on Joe to do the right thing
for our conference and immediately step aside as Ranking Member of the
Energy and Commerce Committee," Bonner wrote.
 
Republican leadership yesterday threatened Barton, saying they'd revoke his
post if he didn't apologize. But they won't say his position is safe: "We'll
see what happens," one GOP aide tells TPMDC.
 
Bonner also called Barton's comments "stupid and extremely insensitive to
the hundreds of thousands of people who live along the Gulf Coast -- many in
my district."
 
Barton yesterday apologized to BP CEO Tony Hayward during a committee
hearing, calling the company's $20 billion escrow fund a government
"shakedown." He later apologized for calling it a shakedown and retracted
his apology.
 
Bonner called it "at best a half-hearted apology" designed to "save his
position on one of the most influential committees in Congress."
 
Another Republican from a district affected by the oil spill, Rep. Jeff
Miller (R-FL), yesterday called for Barton to resign his post.
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From obrzl at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 10:05:00 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:05:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie
Message-ID: <2123739394.570089.1276967100320.JavaMail.root@vznit170066>

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 10:07:21 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:07:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] The Media, Kyron, and the rumor mills.
Message-ID: <25859-4C1CF949-4713@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

I would normally start today off with a good morning all url, however,
after reading the Big "O"'s copy about Kyron's Step-Mother.

Have I ever mentioned that I really, really abhor the media?  I even had
a run in or two while still in uniform.  I even, had to pay for a camera
I broke with my "Billy Club"  .. if anyone wants to know why  e-mail me
on the down low.

I see the rumor mills have begun.  
Especially now that we are told that Terri Horman, (Kyron' step mom)
will be taking another "Polygraph Test today.  I was beginning to wonder
how long it would be before she would be targeted.

Terri is probably so frazzled about now ... she just might not past the
test.  However, we all know those tests are not any proof of guilt in a
court of law, but if she does fail, ya wanna bet the word will get out,
and then what?  And now ... I ain't so sure that today will be a good
day after-all.

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 10:15:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:15:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1CFB14.000050.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

ACORN took a lot of negative flak because of mistakes they made, including
voter fraud and abuse of tax payer funding.......offering to finance cat
houses for one, backing CAIR who supported terrorists another.......funneled
money through banks to Hamas. 

Where is the outrage about CAIR activities?

Essentially, ACORN shot itself in the foot- - - -several times.

As a result, the good they did will be forgotten, and the fact they were
corrupt will remain alive.

Don 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/18/2010 2:44:43 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
 
I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion
of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN,
despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
 
Jeff
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was That 'Scandal' All
About
http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdoi
ng_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/?page=entire
June 17, 2010 by John Atlas
 
On Monday, June 14, a preliminary probe by the U.S.
<http://www.gao.gov/daybook/100614.htm%20>  Government Accountability Office
(GAO)of ACORN has found no evidence the association or related organizations
mishandled the $40 million in federal money they received in recent years.
 
A review of grants by nine federal agencies found no problems with ACORN's
grants. In my book Seeds <http://www.amazon.com/John-Atlas/e/B002QNVLA2%20>
of Change I document how ACORN, the largest most successful national anti
poverty organization in America, was forced to close its door.
 
The GAO interviewed and obtained documentation from grant program managers
and staff from nine agencies; NeighborWorks, the Election Assistance
Commission (EAC), the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Department of the Treasury
(Treasury), and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Department of
Homeland Security and (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Most of the grants were
for housing-related purposes during fiscal years 2005 through 2009.
 
The GAO, an independent, nonpartisan agency that works for Congress, is
often called the "congressional watchdog." It investigates how the federal
government spends taxpayer dollars.
 
Nearly two dozen members of Congress requested an investigation after a
series of complaints against ACORN and its affiliates. The complaints
included an embezzlement matter, several cases of voter registration fraud,
and the release of edited and misleading videotapes, secretly made by
conservative activists that appeared to implicate ACORN workers in several
offices facilitating prostitution. In fact the staff in most of ACORN's
offices turned the pair away, reported the couple to the police, refused to
provide them any aid, and in one case tried to convince the phony prostitute
to get counseling. In no ACORN office did employees file any paperwork or do
anything illegal on the duo's behalf.
 
But Fox News broadcasted the deceptive tapes nearly around the clock for
several days defaming ACORN.
 
While Republicans in Congress, who for years had accused ACORN of
corruption, used the phony tapes to lead an effort to successfully strip the
group of federal funding in 2009. Months later the group was exonerated from
any wrongdoing by every official and independent investigation.
 
After the broadcast of the videotapes on Fox and CNN, the New York Times and
Washington Post inaccurately reported that the ACORN workers in several
offices facilitated prostitution. The papers also reported that O'Keefe was
dressed up in a cartoonish pimp garb when he entered the ACORN offices, when
he actually wore a dress shirt and slacks and identified himself as a
student or friend of the young woman who posed as a prostitute. As a result
of the conservative's smear campaign and the media's erroneous reporting of
the smears as true, the U. S. Congress defunded ACORN, which led to many of
its funders and allies to withdraw their support.
 
An independent investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office and
the Attorney General of California vindicated ACORN of any wrongdoing. A
federal judge ruled that the law barring the group's receipt of federal
funds was unconstitutional. I capture the story of this incident as well as
the history ACORN, in my new book, Seeds of Change, The Story of ACORN,
America's most
<http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdo
ing_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/Amazon.com%20http:/www.amazon.c
om/Seeds-Change-Controversial-Antipoverty-Organizing/dp/0826517064%20and%20V
anderbilt%20University%20Press%20http:/www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/boo
ks/387/seeds-of-change>  controversial anti-poverty community organizing
group.
 
One of the activists, James O'Keefe recently pleaded guilty to charges of
entering federal property under false pretenses when he attempted to
embarrass Senator Mary Landrieu because of her support for national health
care legislation.
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 10:16:25 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:16:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie
In-Reply-To: obrzl@verizon.net's message of Sat,
	19 Jun 2010 12:05:00 -0500	(CDT)
Message-ID: <25866-4C1CFB69-424@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Obi-wan..
That is okay with me, for the more water, the more room an OleHoss has
to maneuver his Kayak.  Besides cutting fire wood, rowing is another way
to strengthen my shoulders.

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 10:26:53 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:26:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: What do the Tea Party believe?
In-Reply-To: "donkelly" <ocollaugh@comcast.net>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun 2010 09:28:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Message-ID: <25860-4C1CFDDD-3964@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Hoss says "PHOOEY"

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 10:38:09 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:38:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] The Media, Kyron, and the rumor mills.
In-Reply-To: RosesFromHoss@webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)'s message of Sat,
	19	Jun 2010 10:07:21 -0700
Message-ID: <25864-4C1D0081-1180@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

It has just occurred to me, an I am beginning to wonder if this could be
a custodial/parental interference case.
One would think that it would of been brought already.  I do not
remember, reading or hearing about this.  However, I am sure if I missed
it, someone will tell me!

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 11:40:34 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:40:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1D0ED0.000065.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff,

It appears through the threads of communications that the judge gave ACORN
some time to vindicate itself- - - -which far Is I have seen they have not.

ACORN does have a constitutional point in that groups cannot be barred from
receiving tax money.

As for CAIR, their problems cannot be blamed on Obama, though both Obama and
his AG were from Chicago, and judge had to know how CAIR worked.

There is no proof I know of that ACORN knew (or supported) everything CAIR
was doing. Nor can anyone in leadership now be blamed.

To the contrary, it seems that the prior administration through
investigative procedures, supported by the AG of the moment, discovered the
tax money trail led from CAIR to a Muslim activist to a bank as laundered
tax money, to the leadership in Lebanon and Gaza. That suggests Hamas and
hesbollah.

However, of note that even before Obama, liberal media was miserly in
reporting the findings of the investigative groups. AND no one has gone to
jail so far for the activities cited. 

Should CAIR be de funded for supporting religious causes with American tax
dollars (trick question)? 
 
In conclusion, I do not agree that ACORN has been fully vindicated. I do
agree that ACORN contributed to it's downfall. 

It should have stayed with helping kids and poor people, instead of jumping
off the bluff into boiling oil and expecting to arise from that gold clad,
and with a halo and a Hero's badge

Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/18/2010 2:44:43 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
 
I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion
of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN,
despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
 
Jeff
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was That 'Scandal' All
About
http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdoi
ng_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/?page=entire
June 17, 2010 by John Atlas
 
On Monday, June 14, a preliminary probe by the U.S.
<http://www.gao.gov/daybook/100614.htm%20>  Government Accountability Office
(GAO)of ACORN has found no evidence the association or related organizations
mishandled the $40 million in federal money they received in recent years.
 
A review of grants by nine federal agencies found no problems with ACORN's
grants. In my book Seeds <http://www.amazon.com/John-Atlas/e/B002QNVLA2%20>
of Change I document how ACORN, the largest most successful national anti
poverty organization in America, was forced to close its door.
 
The GAO interviewed and obtained documentation from grant program managers
and staff from nine agencies; NeighborWorks, the Election Assistance
Commission (EAC), the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), the
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Department of the Treasury
(Treasury), and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Department of
Homeland Security and (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Most of the grants were
for housing-related purposes during fiscal years 2005 through 2009.
 
The GAO, an independent, nonpartisan agency that works for Congress, is
often called the "congressional watchdog." It investigates how the federal
government spends taxpayer dollars.
 
Nearly two dozen members of Congress requested an investigation after a
series of complaints against ACORN and its affiliates. The complaints
included an embezzlement matter, several cases of voter registration fraud,
and the release of edited and misleading videotapes, secretly made by
conservative activists that appeared to implicate ACORN workers in several
offices facilitating prostitution. In fact the staff in most of ACORN's
offices turned the pair away, reported the couple to the police, refused to
provide them any aid, and in one case tried to convince the phony prostitute
to get counseling. In no ACORN office did employees file any paperwork or do
anything illegal on the duo's behalf.
 
But Fox News broadcasted the deceptive tapes nearly around the clock for
several days defaming ACORN.
 
While Republicans in Congress, who for years had accused ACORN of
corruption, used the phony tapes to lead an effort to successfully strip the
group of federal funding in 2009. Months later the group was exonerated from
any wrongdoing by every official and independent investigation.
 
After the broadcast of the videotapes on Fox and CNN, the New York Times and
Washington Post inaccurately reported that the ACORN workers in several
offices facilitated prostitution. The papers also reported that O'Keefe was
dressed up in a cartoonish pimp garb when he entered the ACORN offices, when
he actually wore a dress shirt and slacks and identified himself as a
student or friend of the young woman who posed as a prostitute. As a result
of the conservative's smear campaign and the media's erroneous reporting of
the smears as true, the U. S. Congress defunded ACORN, which led to many of
its funders and allies to withdraw their support.
 
An independent investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office and
the Attorney General of California vindicated ACORN of any wrongdoing. A
federal judge ruled that the law barring the group's receipt of federal
funds was unconstitutional. I capture the story of this incident as well as
the history ACORN, in my new book, Seeds of Change, The Story of ACORN,
America's most
<http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdo
ing_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/Amazon.com%20http:/www.amazon.c
om/Seeds-Change-Controversial-Antipoverty-Organizing/dp/0826517064%20and%20V
anderbilt%20University%20Press%20http:/www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/boo
ks/387/seeds-of-change>  controversial anti-poverty community organizing
group.
 
One of the activists, James O'Keefe recently pleaded guilty to charges of
entering federal property under false pretenses when he attempted to
embarrass Senator Mary Landrieu because of her support for national health
care legislation.
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 12:25:17 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:25:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>	<0052F5FD-874A-4D99-ABD2-5AA0F5C03690@verizon.net>
	<000001cb0f71$f3d53b30$db7fb190$@net>
Message-ID: <4C1D199A.000068.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

True. By the undeniable evidence they can never be totally vindicated. The
water escaped the dam and cannot be brought back.

Several years ago ACORN had a mission......a mission I agreed with, and
still agree with.

They need to get back to that mission statement.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Steven
Date: 6/18/2010 10:40:54 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
 
I'd have to say "totally vindicated" is a stretch.
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 10:35 PM
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing --
> What Was That 'Scandal' All About?
>
> Jeff,
>
> I will go out on a limb on this one.  I predict that Don will not
> change his previous attitude toward ACORN.
>
> I do realize that I am on thin ice here.  But, I have to go with by
> instincts.
>
> I predict that Don won't accept the court or the GAO on this.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
> > I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the
> opinion of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about
> ACORN, despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their
> ilk.
> >
> > Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 13:36:45 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:36:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie
References: <2123739394.570089.1276967100320.JavaMail.root@vznit170066>
Message-ID: <4C1D2A57.000086.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Interesting movie as I always wondered how Hagg Lake dam came about. I knew
why, farming, but not how.

I wonder why they didn't just move her house to higher ground.

Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: obrzl at verizon.net
Date: 6/19/2010 10:05:42 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie
 

http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/segments/view/1731
 
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From nospam03 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 14:38:34 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:38:34 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie
In-Reply-To: <4C1D2A57.000086.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <2123739394.570089.1276967100320.JavaMail.root@vznit170066><4C1D2A57.000086.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <1219188282-1276983520-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1126019001-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I was probably the last person to ride a motorcycle across the valley. The ground was swampy and at one point I went up to the headlight in mud. Went from about the boat ramp, across the bridge and then to the south end of the dam. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:36:45 
To: Forest Grove local interests list<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hagg Lake movie

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 18:31:25 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:31:25 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
Message-ID: <4C1D6F68.0000B7.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

We know that government surveillance computers are programmed to get feds
attention to what you say in your emails so they can focus in and have a
look.

They call it looking for terrorists, but I suspect there is more to it than
that.

Here is the list of key words you should avoid using, unless you want to
hear a knock on your door.


http://www.akdart.com/priv8a.html

Don
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 19:29:09 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:29:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: <4C1D6F68.0000B7.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1D6F68.0000B7.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <6F33F169-F480-44C6-8B6C-30D3C516CAAD@verizon.net>

Guess what?

My uncle had a bird dog that he loved and he always took the dog  
fishing and hunting with him.
Also, if you are in the market for a passport there is a nice easy  
local place to go. Right here in FG at the city offices where you  
apply for permits and pay your utility bill.

Guess what else?
I think your link is unlikely to be valid for words to avoid. There  
are so many names and words that are too common.
Can you imagine how much noise would be generated if they realized  
that every terrorist uses the word, 'the' in emails so they started  
sorting for emails with 'the' included.
That list in the link seems to be one that would required monitoring  
only slightly fewer than those with the word 'the'.
If your link is accurate then we all better be prepared for the  
number of employees working for the feds to go sky high just to keep  
up with monitoring emails.

My post has some of the forbidden words so if you hit reply, be sure  
to save bandwidth and delete my portion before you send it or you  
will be scrutinized too. (Or not)

Katie


On Jun 19, 2010, at 6:31 PM, donkelly wrote:

> We know that government surveillance computers are programmed to  
> get feds
> attention to what you say in your emails so they can focus in and  
> have a
> look.
>
>
>
> They call it looking for terrorists, but I suspect there is more to  
> it than
> that.
>
>
>
> Here is the list of key words you should avoid using, unless you  
> want to
> hear a knock on your door.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.akdart.com/priv8a.html
>
>
>
> Don<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>________________________ 
> _______________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 19:52:02 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:52:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt <allnutt@verizon.net>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun	2010 19:29:09 -0700
Message-ID: <19055-4C1D8252-45@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

this is another chicken little story

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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 19:57:10 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:57:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <4C1D0ED0.000065.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
	<4C1D0ED0.000065.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <240B6986-2402-4A87-8DED-20A1D49E9B7E@verizon.net>



On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:40 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff,
> 
> It appears through the threads of communications that the judge gave ACORN some time to vindicate itself- - - -which far Is I have seen they have not.
> 
> ACORN does have a constitutional point in that groups cannot be barred from receiving tax money.
> 
> As for CAIR, their problems cannot be blamed on Obama, though both Obama and his AG were from Chicago, and judge had to know how CAIR worked.
> 
> There is no proof I know of that ACORN knew (or supported) everything CAIR was doing. Nor can anyone in leadership now be blamed.
> 
> ...
> In conclusion, I do not agree that ACORN has been fully vindicated. I do agree that ACORN contributed to it's downfall. 
> 
> 
> 
> It should have stayed with helping kids and poor people, instead of jumping
> off the bluff into boiling oil and expecting to arise from that gold clad,
> and with a halo and a Hero's badge
> 
> 
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> 
> 
> From: Jeff Howden
> 
> Date: 6/18/2010 2:44:43 PM
> 
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> 
> Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
> WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
> 
> 
> 
> I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion
> 
> of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN,
> 
> despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> 
> ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What Was That 'Scandal' All
> 
> About
> 
> http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdoi
> 
> nag_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/?page=entire
> 
> June 17, 2010 by John Atlas
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, June 14, a preliminary probe by the U.S.
> 
> <http://www.gao.gov/daybook/100614.htm%20>  Government Accountability Office
> 
> (GAO)of ACORN has found no evidence the association or related organizations
> 
> mishandled the $40 million in federal money they received in recent years.
> 
> 
> 
> A review of grants by nine federal agencies found no problems with ACORN's
> 
> grants. In my book Seeds <http://www.amazon.com/John-Atlas/e/B002QNVLA2%20>
> 
> of Change I document how ACORN, the largest most successful national anti
> 
> poverty organization in America, was forced to close its door.
> 
> 
> 
> The GAO interviewed and obtained documentation from grant program managers
> 
> and staff from nine agencies; NeighborWorks, the Election Assistance
> 
> Commission (EAC), the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), the
> 
> Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Department of the Treasury
> 
> (Treasury), and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Department of
> 
> Homeland Security and (DHS), the Department of Justice (DOJ), and the
> 
> Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD). Most of the grants were
> 
> for housing-related purposes during fiscal years 2005 through 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> The GAO, an independent, nonpartisan agency that works for Congress, is
> 
> often called the "congressional watchdog." It investigates how the federal
> 
> government spends taxpayer dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly two dozen members of Congress requested an investigation after a
> 
> series of complaints against ACORN and its affiliates. The complaints
> 
> included an embezzlement matter, several cases of voter registration fraud,
> 
> and the release of edited and misleading videotapes, secretly made by
> 
> conservative activists that appeared to implicate ACORN workers in several
> 
> offices facilitating prostitution. In fact the staff in most of ACORN's
> 
> offices turned the pair away, reported the couple to the police, refused to
> 
> provide them any aid, and in one case tried to convince the phony prostitute
> 
> to get counseling. In no ACORN office did employees file any paperwork or do
> 
> anything illegal on the duo's behalf.
> 
> 
> 
> But Fox News broadcasted the deceptive tapes nearly around the clock for
> 
> several days defaming ACORN.
> 
> 
> 
> While Republicans in Congress, who for years had accused ACORN of
> 
> corruption, used the phony tapes to lead an effort to successfully strip the
> 
> group of federal funding in 2009. Months later the group was exonerated from
> 
> any wrongdoing by every official and independent investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> After the broadcast of the videotapes on Fox and CNN, the New York Times and
> 
> Washington Post inaccurately reported that the ACORN workers in several
> 
> offices facilitated prostitution. The papers also reported that O'Keefe was
> 
> dressed up in a cartoonish pimp garb when he entered the ACORN offices, when
> 
> he actually wore a dress shirt and slacks and identified himself as a
> 
> student or friend of the young woman who posed as a prostitute. As a result
> 
> of the conservative's smear campaign and the media's erroneous reporting of
> 
> the smears as true, the U. S. Congress defunded ACORN, which led to many of
> 
> its funders and allies to withdraw their support.
> 
> 
> 
> An independent investigation by the Brooklyn District Attorney's office and
> 
> the Attorney General of California vindicated ACORN of any wrongdoing. A
> 
> federal judge ruled that the law barring the group's receipt of federal
> 
> funds was unconstitutional. I capture the story of this incident as well as
> 
> the history ACORN, in my new book, Seeds of Change, The Story of ACORN,
> 
> America's most
> 
> <http://www.alternet.org/news/147248/acorn_totally_vindicated_of_all_wrongdo
> 
> ing_--_what_was_that_%27scandal%27_all_about/Amazon.com%20http:/www.amazon.c
> 
> om/Seeds-Change-Controversial-Antipoverty-Organizing/dp/0826517064%20and%20V
> 
> anderbilt%20University%20Press%20http:/www.vanderbiltuniversitypress.com/boo
> 
> ks/387/seeds-of-change>  controversial anti-poverty community organizing
> 
> group.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the activists, James O'Keefe recently pleaded guilty to charges of
> 
> entering federal property under false pretenses when he attempted to
> 
> embarrass Senator Mary Landrieu because of her support for national health
> 
> care legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> GroveNet mailing list
> 
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> 
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 19:57:13 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:57:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 WasThat 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <4C1D0ED0.000065.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
	<4C1D0ED0.000065.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <6B66ABF2-AE40-4D77-B924-7488E77ADC3B@verizon.net>

You say that you don't believe in "dirty tricks" and then you use Guilt by Association.  Because Obama and his AG come from Chicago, you tie them to CAIR.  What a dirty trick.  And you are calling people "liars".

You mention that the judge gave ACORN the time to vindicate itself, and neglect to mention the results of the trial.  You mention that you have seen no proof that ACORN knew or supported CAIR.  You have NO proof that the were tied to anything wrong.

Knowing all of that, you work to tie ACORN to CAIR, and try to tie the actions of CAIN to ACORN.  What a dirty trick.  And you claim to be opposed to that sort of action.

You do not agree that ACORN has been fully vindicated, and charge ACORN with it's downfall.  What a dirty trick.  ACORN was falsely charged by your handlers, and has come out of the process with a clean bill of health.  But, you cannot let it be found innocent.  You have to pretend that there is still something hanging over their head.

Go ahead, provide the charges, provide the evidence.

You are so insistent that Obama must produce the evidence of his Hawaiian birth, even though it has been provided by the State of Hawaii.  Okay, you do the same.  Provide the evidence of wrong doing for ACORN capable of meeting the same standard you require for a birth certificate.  Innuendo and hear-say isn't qualified.  If you cannot take the word of officials in Hawaii for birth certificates, you are not allowed to use anything less than "original" documents to prove your charges.

David
On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:40 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff,
> 
> 
> 
> It appears through the threads of communications that the judge gave ACORN some time to vindicate itself- - - -which far Is I have seen they have not.
> 
> ACORN does have a constitutional point in that groups cannot be barred from receiving tax money.
> 
> As for CAIR, their problems cannot be blamed on Obama, though both Obama and his AG were from Chicago, and judge had to know how CAIR worked.
> 
> There is no proof I know of that ACORN knew (or supported) everything CAIR was doing. Nor can anyone in leadership now be blamed.
> ...

> In conclusion, I do not agree that ACORN has been fully vindicated. I do agree that ACORN contributed to it's downfall. 
> ...
> 
> Don




From jbcoops at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 19 19:58:37 2010
From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: <19055-4C1D8252-45@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <709436.93757.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

no... it's the 3 Little Pigs... didn't you read don's original post? there's a "knocking at the door!"

--- On Sat, 6/19/10, Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net> wrote:
this is another chicken little story



      

From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 20:08:33 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:08:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: <709436.93757.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <709436.93757.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7BC7E143-B043-4032-9384-E57BFF7968C5@verizon.net>

There's a lot of huffing and puffing too, so yes, the 3 Little Pigs  
sounds right. ; )

Katie

On Jun 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Cooper wrote:

> no... it's the 3 Little Pigs... didn't you read don's original  
> post? there's a "knocking at the door!"
>
> --- On Sat, 6/19/10, Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net> wrote:
> this is another chicken little story
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 20:08:48 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:08:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: Jeff Cooper <jbcoops@yahoo.com>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun 2010	19:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <19045-4C1D8640-3452@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Jeff wrote ...no... it's the 3 Little Pigs... didn't you read don's
original post? there's a "knocking at the door!"
=======
Jeff .. I take it ... your the one who blew Don's house down.

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 20:11:20 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:11:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt <allnutt@verizon.net>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun	2010 20:08:33 -0700
Message-ID: <19046-4C1D86D8-2891@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Katie wrote ..There's a lot of huffing and puffing too, so yes, the 3
Little Pigs sounds right. ; )  

============
Katie .. it looks to me like your just hissing like a moma Katt

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 20:37:15 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:37:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: <7BC7E143-B043-4032-9384-E57BFF7968C5@verizon.net>
References: <709436.93757.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<7BC7E143-B043-4032-9384-E57BFF7968C5@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <F010E69801374DE9AFFFB5627CADDF07@GeriPC>


And, oh my gosh, there's supposedly a "big, bad wolf," LOL!


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 8:08 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for

> There's a lot of huffing and puffing too, so yes, the 3 Little Pigs  
> sounds right. ; )
> 
> Katie
> 
> On Jun 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Jeff Cooper wrote:
> 
>> no... it's the 3 Little Pigs... didn't you read don's original  
>> post? there's a "knocking at the door!"
>>
>> --- On Sat, 6/19/10, Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net> wrote:
>> this is another chicken little story
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Jun 19 20:39:42 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:39:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: <19046-4C1D86D8-2891@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <19046-4C1D86D8-2891@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <D6524510-B666-488F-B36A-5C9F73524E31@verizon.net>

I'll take that as a compliment!
Momma  bears, momma katts, etc they all protect the ones they care  
about with a vengeance.

Katie

On Jun 19, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote:

> Katie wrote ..There's a lot of huffing and puffing too, so yes, the 3
> Little Pigs sounds right. ; )
>
> ============
> Katie .. it looks to me like your just hissing like a moma Katt
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it!
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 20:45:48 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:45:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt <allnutt@verizon.net>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun	2010 20:39:42 -0700
Message-ID: <19047-4C1D8EEC-2296@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

thanks, I feel real privalaged

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 19 20:47:58 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:47:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Sat,
	19 Jun 2010 20:37:15 -0700
Message-ID: <19046-4C1D8F6E-2942@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Geri ... I think it's more like a Big little wolf.

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 19 22:10:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:10:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
References: <709436.93757.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C1DA2D2.0000DE.02388@DON-B2514E06367>

Sounds kinda funny heh?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Cooper
Date: 6/19/2010 7:58:52 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Keywords the feds look for
 
no... it's the 3 Little Pigs... didn't you read don's original post? there's
a "knocking at the door!"
 
--- On Sat, 6/19/10, Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net> wrote:
this is another chicken little story
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 20 07:34:54 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 07:34:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] New Thread: Ancient history
In-Reply-To: <4C1CF636.000042.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C1CF636.000042.02388@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <7BDEF719-DF0C-455B-A71E-87EC4A4DACC7@teleport.com>

Wow!
indeed an amazing, beautifully-done site, providing a good, brief  
overview of a complicated bit of history.  I've long been interested  
in this era. The only quibble I could possibly make is that the text  
could have used some proofing and correcting. The writer/Website  
artist obviously devoted a very long time to this project, which must  
have been a labor of love.
On Jun 19, 2010, at 9:54 AM, donkelly wrote:

> http://www.battle1066.com/intro.shtml For those who have time.
>
> The battle England lost to a foreign power, The Normans.
>
> A web site very well done. I wish I owned that skill set.
>
> Don<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>__________________________________________ 
> _____
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From hannah at teleport.com  Sun Jun 20 10:47:07 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:47:07 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
In-Reply-To: <4C19D4DC.000064.03504@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <C843BE4B.1728E%hannah@teleport.com>

Just now was able to look at the Trails to the Past site where you have
posted several good looking historical pieces. Particularly impressive is
the list of the Indian Tribes of Washington State. I looked through it and
realized that I know little about many of them.

Do you have a genealogy site too?
Kristy


On 6/17/10 2:55 AM, "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In case others
> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my work. All
> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing with
> genealogy or history.
> 
> 
> 
> This was started last month and will be under construction for another month
> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
> 
> 
> 
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
> 
>  
> 
> Don
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
>  
> 
> From: Jeff Howden
> 
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
> 
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> 
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
> 
>  
> 
> Don,
> 
>  
> 
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
>> 
> 
>> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
> 
>  
> 
> What reasons would those be?
> 
>  
> 
> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of us a
> 
> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe rhetoric to the
> 
> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member of the
> 
> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time putting your
> 
> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
> 
> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your homework and
> 
> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
> 
> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
>  
> 
> Jeff
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> GroveNet mailing list
> 
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> 
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 20 11:32:30 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:32:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] New Subject
References: <C843BE4B.1728E%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C1E5EB1.00001C.00680@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes Kristy, and thank you for the kind words. I hope young people and other
visitors in general will learn something of value to them.

In the US I have four sites besides TTTP; with USGW Washington County, WA,
Des Moines County, IA,
Navajo County, AZ, and Franklin County, AR. I also have the State of Alaska
for AHGP project, meaning history and genealogy.

If you are interested in the local project, click on http://orgenweb
org/washington/Washington/ If you are interested in other county projects, I
ll provide the URLS to those.

If you are interested in Iceland, Scotland, Wales, England, Ireland, The
Carribean or Australia, just ask for the URL. Altogether I admin about 40
websites, including holding the title of National or State Coordinator on
three continents. 

TTTP is new, started in January of this year. It will evolved into fifty
states with all counties in each state, and will focus on history and
genealogy. The history part is easy- - - all I have to do is read fifty
books or so. Genealogy is far more focused and takes years to cover just one
county with vital records.

Currently I am working up Clatsop County, starting with history of the
county, and gleaning insight into the original natives of that county. So
far the narrative starts with the arrival of Lewis and Clark, but I am sure
may other trinkets will show up. 

Like white people caught so much fish in their nets that it took a team of
horses to fetch the net ashore.

Thank you for asking.

Don   
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Kristy Gravlin
Date: 06/20/10 10:47:20
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
 
Just now was able to look at the Trails to the Past site where you have
posted several good looking historical pieces. Particularly impressive is
the list of the Indian Tribes of Washington State. I looked through it and
realized that I know little about many of them.
 
Do you have a genealogy site too?
Kristy
 
 
On 6/17/10 2:55 AM, "donkelly" <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:
 
> OK. We are open to new subjects you might better appreciate. In case
others
> are into website building- - -I suspect Jim is, here is some of my work.
All
> together I have about 10,000 pages up on the Internet, most dealing with
> genealogy or history.
>
>
>
> This was started last month and will be under construction for another
month
> or so. Then I go back to finish the Oregon site. That is ortttp/
>
>
>
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~watttp/
>
>
>
> Comments solicited, but please, I know I am not a really good web page
> designer, but what I lack in ability I make up for in content.
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: Jeff Howden
>
> Date: 6/16/2010 11:39:09 PM
>
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Subject
>
>
>
> Don,
>
>
>
>> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
>>
>
>> Thank you Jeff. I am here for the same reasons.
>
>
>
> What reasons would those be?
>
>
>
> If you're here for the community, then do yourself and the rest of us a
>
> favor and improve the signal to noise ratio, post the fringe rhetoric to
the
>
> lists where you're popular for those ideas, participate as a member of the
>
> community, not a wedge in the community, and spend more time putting your
>
> posts together to make sure to include sufficient quotes and links to
>
> external sources that the post clearly shows you've done your homework and
>
> posted something because you thought it was meaningful, uplifting, and
>
> valuable, not controversial, divisive, or trolling.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Jun 20 12:03:29 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:03:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
Message-ID: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>

Ah the smell of a flip flop in the morning.


Katie


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-to-people- 
who-dont.html
Commentary: Rand Paul's a hypocrite on Medicare benefits

McClatchy-Tribune News Service

The following editorial appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on  
Thursday, June 17:

If there's one thing tea party favorite Rand Paul hates, it's  
government handouts.

Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security - he's against them. That  
platform helped him win last month's Republican primary in Kentucky  
for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Republican Jim Bunning.

On the campaign trail, Paul likes to say that the biggest problem we  
face is rising debt. He promises to radically cut government spending.

When he's not running for U.S. Senate, Paul is an eye doctor in rural  
Kentucky, a poor state with higher-than-average enrollment in  
Medicare and Medicaid.

You might think that Paul would, as a matter of principle, refuse to  
accept Medicare and Medicaid payments. You might think that, but you  
would be wrong.

Paul's campaign manager clarified the issue for The Associated Press  
this week. Refusing to accept payments from those two government  
programs would "penalize his older patients and his poor patients."

Paul wouldn't want to penalize them like that. Far better to simply  
take away their health insurance.

Whoops. Check that. His campaign manager says Paul opposes cutting  
benefits for current Medicare patients.

So, just to be clear, Paul hates government handouts. But not enough  
to stop taking them.

But he would cut programs that provide those government handouts,  
only not for elderly Medicare patients, because that would "penalize"  
them.

Instead, he presumably would cut government handouts to people who  
don't currently get them but eventually would if they make the  
mistake of growing older.

Because, as everyone knows, the biggest problem we face is rising  
debt. And, perhaps, hypocrisy.



Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits- 
to-people-who-dont.html#ixzz0rQAbSqGb
xxx


xxx

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 20 12:16:59 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 12:16:59 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
References: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1E6926.00002E.00680@DON-B2514E06367>

Would this be the same mentality that would authorize destruction of a road
around a lake, before building a bridge across the lake? 

Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Katie Allnutt
Date: 6/20/2010 12:03:45 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
 
Ah the smell of a flip flop in the morning.
 
 
Katie
 
 
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-to-people-
who-dont.html
Commentary: Rand Paul's a hypocrite on Medicare benefits
 
McClatchy-Tribune News Service
 
The following editorial appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on
Thursday, June 17:
 
If there's one thing tea party favorite Rand Paul hates, it's
government handouts.
 
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security - he's against them. That
platform helped him win last month's Republican primary in Kentucky
for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Republican Jim Bunning.
 
On the campaign trail, Paul likes to say that the biggest problem we
face is rising debt. He promises to radically cut government spending.
 
When he's not running for U.S. Senate, Paul is an eye doctor in rural
Kentucky, a poor state with higher-than-average enrollment in
Medicare and Medicaid.
 
You might think that Paul would, as a matter of principle, refuse to
accept Medicare and Medicaid payments. You might think that, but you
would be wrong.
 
Paul's campaign manager clarified the issue for The Associated Press
this week. Refusing to accept payments from those two government
programs would "penalize his older patients and his poor patients."
 
Paul wouldn't want to penalize them like that. Far better to simply
take away their health insurance.
 
Whoops. Check that. His campaign manager says Paul opposes cutting
benefits for current Medicare patients.
 
So, just to be clear, Paul hates government handouts. But not enough
to stop taking them.
 
But he would cut programs that provide those government handouts,
only not for elderly Medicare patients, because that would "penalize"
them.
 
Instead, he presumably would cut government handouts to people who
don't currently get them but eventually would if they make the
mistake of growing older.
 
Because, as everyone knows, the biggest problem we face is rising
debt. And, perhaps, hypocrisy.
 
 
 
Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-
to-people-who-dont.html#ixzz0rQAbSqGb
xxx
 
 
xxx
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 20 18:51:51 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:51:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] ACORN Totally Vindicated of All Wrongdoing -- What
 Was	That 'Scandal' All About?
In-Reply-To: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
References: <003501cb0f2f$72a497a0$57edc6e0$@com>
Message-ID: <192C3D8F-F168-4024-92FE-B6940EF01678@verizon.net>

Thanks for the post.
David

On Jun 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> I realize this won't come as a surprise to most and won't change the opinion of a few, but finally there's some truth coming to light about ACORN, despite the claims of Republicans and Fox and others of their ilk.
> 
> Jeff



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 06:25:53 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 06:25:53 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
In-Reply-To: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>
References: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1F6861.7090803@gmail.com>

I'm starting to see this as a sign that the Tea Party will be very 
successful this November.  A lot of time and effort, and soon a lot of 
money, is being spent on taking down Rand Paul.  Rand Paul has as good 
of a chance of losing his election as Ron Wyden does here in Oregon.  
Even if enough money is spent and attacks against him cause him to lose, 
at what cost?  That's money and energy being spent on one person while 
dozens, if not hundreds of other similar candidates will win their 
elections around the country.

The term lighting rod comes to mind..............

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> Ah the smell of a flip flop in the morning.
>
>
> Katie
>
>
> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-to-people- 
> who-dont.html
> Commentary: Rand Paul's a hypocrite on Medicare benefits
>
> McClatchy-Tribune News Service
>
> The following editorial appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on  
> Thursday, June 17:
>
> If there's one thing tea party favorite Rand Paul hates, it's  
> government handouts.
>
> Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security - he's against them. That  
> platform helped him win last month's Republican primary in Kentucky  
> for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Republican Jim Bunning.
>
> On the campaign trail, Paul likes to say that the biggest problem we  
> face is rising debt. He promises to radically cut government spending.
>
> When he's not running for U.S. Senate, Paul is an eye doctor in rural  
> Kentucky, a poor state with higher-than-average enrollment in  
> Medicare and Medicaid.
>
> You might think that Paul would, as a matter of principle, refuse to  
> accept Medicare and Medicaid payments. You might think that, but you  
> would be wrong.
>
> Paul's campaign manager clarified the issue for The Associated Press  
> this week. Refusing to accept payments from those two government  
> programs would "penalize his older patients and his poor patients."
>
> Paul wouldn't want to penalize them like that. Far better to simply  
> take away their health insurance.
>
> Whoops. Check that. His campaign manager says Paul opposes cutting  
> benefits for current Medicare patients.
>
> So, just to be clear, Paul hates government handouts. But not enough  
> to stop taking them.
>
> But he would cut programs that provide those government handouts,  
> only not for elderly Medicare patients, because that would "penalize"  
> them.
>
> Instead, he presumably would cut government handouts to people who  
> don't currently get them but eventually would if they make the  
> mistake of growing older.
>
> Because, as everyone knows, the biggest problem we face is rising  
> debt. And, perhaps, hypocrisy.
>
>
>
> Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits- 
> to-people-who-dont.html#ixzz0rQAbSqGb
> xxx
>
>
> xxx
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From allnutt at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 10:01:22 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 10:01:22 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
In-Reply-To: <4C1F6861.7090803@gmail.com>
References: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>
	<4C1F6861.7090803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA15E5B1-3D86-4294-881A-08E9F4DE1A5D@verizon.net>

It didn't cost a lot of money for Rand Paul to open his mouth and say  
he thought businesses should be able to discriminate like they did in  
the '50s when they would take your money for gasoline at the pump but  
not let you use the bathrooms at the gas station.  That foot in mouth  
episode resulted in a quick drop in the polls resulting in a 25%  
point lead dropping down to a 7% point lead and dropping below 50% of  
overall voter support. (See link below.)

And it doesn't take a lot of money to report that he wants to  
eliminate Medicare and Medicaid in a state with higher than average  
medicare/medicaid enrollment.  Despite his protestations that current  
enrollees won't be cut, will people who are close to 65 feel safe or  
those who aren't close to 65 who have no cushion saved up?

Time will tell and you may be right. Rand is popular and Kentucky is  
not a progressive state. But trends can hold and Rand has this  
election to lose.

Here is one poll from earlier this month:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/ 
election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/kentucky/ 
election_2010_kentucky_senate

http://tinyurl.com/2wgso2g

Election 2010: Kentucky Senate
Kentucky Senate: Paul 49%, Conway 41%
Tuesday, June 01, 2010


Just after his big Republican Primary win last month, Rand Paul led  
his Democratic opponent Jack Conway by 25 points in Kentucky?s U.S.  
Senate race. Now Paul?s lead is down to just eight points.
Now, however, Paul holds a much smaller advantage. The latest  
Rasmussen Reports statewide telephone survey finds the GOP nominee  
with support from 49% of the state?s voters while Conway earns 41% of  
the vote. Four percent (4%) prefer some other candidate, and six  
percent (6%) are undecided.
Almost all candidates receive a bounce following a big victory and  
Paul clearly lost his post-primary bounce. But he added to the  
decline by quickly stumbling out of the gate in an interview on  
MSNBC. During the interview, he discussed reasons for opposing the  
Civil Rights Act of 1964 and was immediately hit with charges of  
racism. Seventy-three percent (73%) of Kentucky voters say they have  
followed news reports about his comments on MSNBC, including 39% who  
have followed Very Closely.
Fifty-seven percent (57%) of Kentucky voters now have a favorable  
opinion of Paul, down from 69% percent in the previous survey. Thirty- 
eight percent (38%) view him unfavorably, and five percent (5%) have  
no opinion.
Conway is viewed favorably by 47% and unfavorably by 43%, marking  
virtually no change from two weeks ago. Eleven percent (11%) have no  
opinion of the Democrat.
Forty-five percent (45%) say the comments on MSNBC are at least  
somewhat important to how they will vote in November, with 25% who  
say they are Very Important. But slightly more voters (47%) say the  
comments are not very or not at all important in determining how they  
will vote.
Interestingly, most of those who have followed the story Very Closely  
support Paul, suggesting they don?t consider it that big a deal. But  
76% of those who consider the comments Very Important to how they  
will vote now favor Conway.
Politically speaking, 39% of Democrats describe the comments as Very  
Important to how they will vote, a view shared by just 13% of  
Republicans and 17% of voters not affiliated with either major party.


On Jun 21, 2010, at 6:25 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> I'm starting to see this as a sign that the Tea Party will be very
> successful this November.  A lot of time and effort, and soon a lot of
> money, is being spent on taking down Rand Paul.  Rand Paul has as good
> of a chance of losing his election as Ron Wyden does here in Oregon.
> Even if enough money is spent and attacks against him cause him to  
> lose,
> at what cost?  That's money and energy being spent on one person while
> dozens, if not hundreds of other similar candidates will win their
> elections around the country.
>
> The term lighting rod comes to mind..............
>
> Adam
>
> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>> Ah the smell of a flip flop in the morning.
>>
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-to-people-
>> who-dont.html
>> Commentary: Rand Paul's a hypocrite on Medicare benefits
>>
>> McClatchy-Tribune News Service
>>
>> The following editorial appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on
>> Thursday, June 17:
>>
>> If there's one thing tea party favorite Rand Paul hates, it's
>> government handouts.
>>
>> Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security - he's against them. That
>> platform helped him win last month's Republican primary in Kentucky
>> for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Republican Jim Bunning.
>>
>> On the campaign trail, Paul likes to say that the biggest problem we
>> face is rising debt. He promises to radically cut government  
>> spending.
>>
>> When he's not running for U.S. Senate, Paul is an eye doctor in rural
>> Kentucky, a poor state with higher-than-average enrollment in
>> Medicare and Medicaid.
>>
>> You might think that Paul would, as a matter of principle, refuse to
>> accept Medicare and Medicaid payments. You might think that, but you
>> would be wrong.
>>
>> Paul's campaign manager clarified the issue for The Associated Press
>> this week. Refusing to accept payments from those two government
>> programs would "penalize his older patients and his poor patients."
>>
>> Paul wouldn't want to penalize them like that. Far better to simply
>> take away their health insurance.
>>
>> Whoops. Check that. His campaign manager says Paul opposes cutting
>> benefits for current Medicare patients.
>>
>> So, just to be clear, Paul hates government handouts. But not enough
>> to stop taking them.
>>
>> But he would cut programs that provide those government handouts,
>> only not for elderly Medicare patients, because that would "penalize"
>> them.
>>
>> Instead, he presumably would cut government handouts to people who
>> don't currently get them but eventually would if they make the
>> mistake of growing older.
>>
>> Because, as everyone knows, the biggest problem we face is rising
>> debt. And, perhaps, hypocrisy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-
>> to-people-who-dont.html#ixzz0rQAbSqGb
>> xxx
>>
>>
>> xxx
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 21 10:14:20 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:14:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Words R Us
In-Reply-To: <FA15E5B1-3D86-4294-881A-08E9F4DE1A5D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1761211112.6219381277140460003.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

A friend of mine in the East likes to check things out like Scropes does, and like a lot of us, when someone says something that sounds a dull tone, he checks it out.

Like, Who coined the name United States of America? Was it Thomas Paine as we thought? 

The correct answer may surprise you.

don
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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Mon Jun 21 11:04:55 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:04:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] not only is it ....
Message-ID: <19047-4C1FA9C7-3842@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

the first day of summer, and the longest day of the year ... it is also
going to be a very good day for an OleHoss, for he got the NewYorkTimes
Crossword done on less than 15 minutes.  Not a record, but good none the
less.

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Mon Jun 21 11:13:19 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:13:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] not only is it ....
In-Reply-To: <19047-4C1FA9C7-3842@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: <19047-4C1FA9C7-3842@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <2229C83A632F442285AAC2D510712840@GeriPC>

Good job, Alan ~  Have a good longest day!


Geri


From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:04 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: [Grovenet] not only is it ....


the first day of summer, and the longest day of the year ... it is also
going to be a very good day for an OleHoss, for he got the NewYorkTimes
Crossword done on less than 15 minutes.  Not a record, but good none the
less.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Mon Jun 21 11:30:15 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:30:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] not only is it ....
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Mon,
	21 Jun 2010 11:13:19 -0700
Message-ID: <12554-4C1FAFB7-3812@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Thanks Geri....
and this is how I plan to spend my longest day, again!

http://tinyurl.com/AHosstyle-Day

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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 21 11:57:51 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:57:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
Message-ID: <003e01cb1173$a89e77e0$f9db67a0$@com>

Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
http://tinyurl.com/3ywnls8
June 18, 2010 by Natasha Chart

"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" - Spirit of Christmas
Present, A Christmas Carol, 1951

When the Spirit of Christmas Present quotes Ebenezer Scrooge's words back to
him in the movie adaptation of the classic Dickens tale, A Christmas Carol,
they're meant to shame Scrooge with his own meanness. Because this was a
work of fiction, the Spirit was successful, and Scrooge's remorse led him to
repent his cruelty.

Hokey as it was, maybe that movie needs more screen time.

Recently, news surfaced that six
<http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/16/876544/-Its-a-crime-to-be-poor-
in-America>  states are jailing people for unpaid bills to private
companies, as these wistfully nostalgic comments by Peterson Foundation
spokesperson David
<http://www.angrybearblog.com/2010/06/we-learn-why-they-hate-social-security
.html>  Walker on CNBC made the rounds:

"You talk about debtors prisons, we used to have debtors prisons, now
bankruptcy is no taint. Bankruptcy is an exit strategy." - David Walker,
Peter G. Peterson Foundation, CNBC, June 10, 2010

I didn't know there were real, live people who wanted to go back to the days
when it was a crime to be poor. Now I know better.

Not to be outdone for malice, talk radio host Rush Limbaugh has just
suggested that instead of extending
<http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/for-hungry-kids-summer-vacation-from-
school-is-no-break-from-hunger/19510230>  summer food programs for hungry
children, those children should just eat
<http://www.frac.org/Press_Release/june2010_limbaugh_response.htm>  junk
food or dumpster-dive.

After mocking advocacy for summer meal programs as an accusation of neglect
towards poor parents, Limbaugh
<http://mediamatters.org/research/201006170053>  made these suggestions for
hungry young people:

LIMBAUGH: I think, you know what we're going to do here, we're going to
start a feature on this program: "Where to find food." ... And, of course,
the first will be: "Try your house." It's a thing called the refrigerator.
You probably already know about it. Try looking there. There are also things
in what's called the kitchen of your house called cupboards. And in those
cupboards, most likely you're going to find Ding-Dongs, Twinkies, Lays ridgy
potato chips, all kinds of dip and maybe a can of corn that you don't want,
but it will be there. If that doesn't work, try a Happy Meal at McDonald's.
You know where McDonald's is. 

... There's another place if none of these options work to find food;
there's always the neighborhood dumpster. Now, you might find competition
with homeless people there, but there are videos that have been produced to
show you how to healthfully dine and how to dumpster dive and survive until
school kicks back up in August.

I have no illusions that the old-style aristocrats at the Peterson
Foundation, or a professional hatemonger like Limbaugh can be shamed into
treating people who are less fortunate than themselves as human beings
worthy of dignity and respect. As fellow members of a human family whose
common fate we share. 

Though I do wonder whether our lawmakers can find it in their hearts to
reject the economic policies put forward by the likes of Walker and
Limbaugh, policies that inevitably increase poverty and make it harder to
escape. 

I wonder if lawmakers that considered a bank bailout to be must-pass
legislation can bring themselves to act as if legislation to feed hungry
children was a must-pass priority. 

 

 


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Mon Jun 21 12:40:02 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:40:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
References: <003e01cb1173$a89e77e0$f9db67a0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C1FBFF8.000005.03484@DON-B2514E06367>

Surely the national priorities are skewed, on top of 13 trillion dollars in
debt, another 500 million for terrorists organizations, and congress
suggests another 500 billion stimulus.

Is that a bad joke, even a sad joke?

We need to take care of our people first. Every society no matter what they
call their political system, they take care of their kids, and they take
care of their old people.

All except the power brokers accept that. They just want more power and the
people can dumpster dive for food.

Sad commentary for a free, and very rich, nation.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/21/2010 11:58:30 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
 
Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
http://tinyurl.com/3ywnls8
June 18, 2010 by Natasha Chart
 
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" - Spirit of Christmas
Present, A Christmas Carol, 1951
 
When the Spirit of Christmas Present quotes Ebenezer Scrooge's words back to
him in the movie adaptation of the classic Dickens tale, A Christmas Carol,
they're meant to shame Scrooge with his own meanness. Because this was a
work of fiction, the Spirit was successful, and Scrooge's remorse led him to
repent his cruelty.
 
Hokey as it was, maybe that movie needs more screen time.
 
Recently, news surfaced that six
<http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/16/876544/-Its-a-crime-to-be-poor-
in-America>  states are jailing people for unpaid bills to private
companies, as these wistfully nostalgic comments by Peterson Foundation
spokesperson David
<http://www.angrybearblog.com/2010/06/we-learn-why-they-hate-social-security
.html>  Walker on CNBC made the rounds:
 
"You talk about debtors prisons, we used to have debtors prisons, now
bankruptcy is no taint. Bankruptcy is an exit strategy." - David Walker,
Peter G. Peterson Foundation, CNBC, June 10, 2010
 
I didn't know there were real, live people who wanted to go back to the days
when it was a crime to be poor. Now I know better.
 
Not to be outdone for malice, talk radio host Rush Limbaugh has just
suggested that instead of extending
<http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/for-hungry-kids-summer-vacation-from-
school-is-no-break-from-hunger/19510230>  summer food programs for hungry
children, those children should just eat
<http://www.frac.org/Press_Release/june2010_limbaugh_response.htm>  junk
food or dumpster-dive.
 
After mocking advocacy for summer meal programs as an accusation of neglect
towards poor parents, Limbaugh
<http://mediamatters.org/research/201006170053>  made these suggestions for
hungry young people:
 
LIMBAUGH: I think, you know what we're going to do here, we're going to
start a feature on this program: "Where to find food." ... And, of course,
the first will be: "Try your house." It's a thing called the refrigerator.
You probably already know about it. Try looking there. There are also things
in what's called the kitchen of your house called cupboards. And in those
cupboards, most likely you're going to find Ding-Dongs, Twinkies, Lays ridgy
potato chips, all kinds of dip and maybe a can of corn that you don't want,
but it will be there. If that doesn't work, try a Happy Meal at McDonald's.
You know where McDonald's is.
 
... There's another place if none of these options work to find food;
there's always the neighborhood dumpster. Now, you might find competition
with homeless people there, but there are videos that have been produced to
show you how to healthfully dine and how to dumpster dive and survive until
school kicks back up in August.
 
I have no illusions that the old-style aristocrats at the Peterson
Foundation, or a professional hatemonger like Limbaugh can be shamed into
treating people who are less fortunate than themselves as human beings
worthy of dignity and respect. As fellow members of a human family whose
common fate we share.
 
Though I do wonder whether our lawmakers can find it in their hearts to
reject the economic policies put forward by the likes of Walker and
Limbaugh, policies that inevitably increase poverty and make it harder to
escape.
 
I wonder if lawmakers that considered a bank bailout to be must-pass
legislation can bring themselves to act as if legislation to feed hungry
children was a must-pass priority.
 
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 21 12:52:18 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:52:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
In-Reply-To: <4C1FBFF8.000005.03484@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <003e01cb1173$a89e77e0$f9db67a0$@com>
	<4C1FBFF8.000005.03484@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <005b01cb117b$423facf0$c6bf06d0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Surely the national priorities are skewed, on top of 13
> trillion dollars in debt, another 500 million for terrorists
> organizations, and congress suggests another 500 billion
> stimulus.
> 
> Is that a bad joke, even a sad joke?

It must be your attempt at a sad joke seeing as how you batted 1 for 3 in
those claims.

13 trillion dollars in national debt: True
500 million dollars for terrorist organizations: False
500 billion dollars more in stimulus: False

You could improve your batting average by successfully documenting two
claims labeled false.

> We need to take care of our people first. Every society no
> matter what they call their political system, they take care
> of their kids, and they take care of their old people.

Some would say that a society's character is measured by the steps it takes
to take care of the young and innocent and the old and disabled.  Sadly, not
all societies are good at those things.

> All except the power brokers accept that. They just
> want more power and the people can dumpster dive for
> food.
> 
> Sad commentary for a free, and very rich, nation.

I agree.  Greed is a strong motivator to not care about anyone but yourself.

On a side note, would you have had the same opinion about this piece if
you'd known prior to reading it that it was an article posted on the SEIU
website?

Jeff



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 14:27:41 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:27:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Rand Paul - Again!
In-Reply-To: <FA15E5B1-3D86-4294-881A-08E9F4DE1A5D@verizon.net>
References: <7905FA83-8E42-45BE-B023-42EC3A006262@verizon.net>	<4C1F6861.7090803@gmail.com>
	<FA15E5B1-3D86-4294-881A-08E9F4DE1A5D@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C1FD94D.2000905@gmail.com>

I'm not going to comment on what Rand Paul has said and what he 
supports.  I am looking at the overall picture.

While it may appear that he is putting his foot in his mouth, there are 
a few things to keep in mind.  First voters have a very short memory, I 
doubt he will keep up this pace through November, maybe he will.  
Secondly, you are looking at him through the eyes of someone who doesn't 
live in the district and I'm guessing not the same political ideology.  
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an email list in Kentucky where 
people looked at Earl Blumenauer quotes and say there is no way people 
in Oregon will re-elect this man back to Congress.  Congressman 
Blumenauer will win because the people who vote for him support what he 
says and believes.  The people in Kentucky support and believe what Rand 
Paul says.  And polls don't always show the truth, it depends on who 
made the poll and what questions were asked.

The state chairman of the Libertarian Party of Kentucky is a good friend 
of mine.  I saw him last month at the national convention.  He told me 
in his Kentucky accent, between puffs on a cigarette, that the people of 
Kentucky will not elect a Democrat to the US Senate.  He could be wrong, 
but someone who is that involved in the politics of the state might have 
a better perspective that most other people who don't live there.  A lot 
of money will be spent on trying to defeat him, money that is not going 
to other candidates who may need it.

Adam

Katie Allnutt wrote:
> It didn't cost a lot of money for Rand Paul to open his mouth and say  
> he thought businesses should be able to discriminate like they did in  
> the '50s when they would take your money for gasoline at the pump but  
> not let you use the bathrooms at the gas station.  That foot in mouth  
> episode resulted in a quick drop in the polls resulting in a 25%  
> point lead dropping down to a 7% point lead and dropping below 50% of  
> overall voter support. (See link below.)
>
> And it doesn't take a lot of money to report that he wants to  
> eliminate Medicare and Medicaid in a state with higher than average  
> medicare/medicaid enrollment.  Despite his protestations that current  
> enrollees won't be cut, will people who are close to 65 feel safe or  
> those who aren't close to 65 who have no cushion saved up?
>
> Time will tell and you may be right. Rand is popular and Kentucky is  
> not a progressive state. But trends can hold and Rand has this  
> election to lose.
>
> Here is one poll from earlier this month:
>
> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/ 
> election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/kentucky/ 
> election_2010_kentucky_senate
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2wgso2g
>
> Election 2010: Kentucky Senate
> Kentucky Senate: Paul 49%, Conway 41%
> Tuesday, June 01, 2010
>
>
> Just after his big Republican Primary win last month, Rand Paul led  
> his Democratic opponent Jack Conway by 25 points in Kentucky?s U.S.  
> Senate race. Now Paul?s lead is down to just eight points.
> Now, however, Paul holds a much smaller advantage. The latest  
> Rasmussen Reports statewide telephone survey finds the GOP nominee  
> with support from 49% of the state?s voters while Conway earns 41% of  
> the vote. Four percent (4%) prefer some other candidate, and six  
> percent (6%) are undecided.
> Almost all candidates receive a bounce following a big victory and  
> Paul clearly lost his post-primary bounce. But he added to the  
> decline by quickly stumbling out of the gate in an interview on  
> MSNBC. During the interview, he discussed reasons for opposing the  
> Civil Rights Act of 1964 and was immediately hit with charges of  
> racism. Seventy-three percent (73%) of Kentucky voters say they have  
> followed news reports about his comments on MSNBC, including 39% who  
> have followed Very Closely.
> Fifty-seven percent (57%) of Kentucky voters now have a favorable  
> opinion of Paul, down from 69% percent in the previous survey. Thirty- 
> eight percent (38%) view him unfavorably, and five percent (5%) have  
> no opinion.
> Conway is viewed favorably by 47% and unfavorably by 43%, marking  
> virtually no change from two weeks ago. Eleven percent (11%) have no  
> opinion of the Democrat.
> Forty-five percent (45%) say the comments on MSNBC are at least  
> somewhat important to how they will vote in November, with 25% who  
> say they are Very Important. But slightly more voters (47%) say the  
> comments are not very or not at all important in determining how they  
> will vote.
> Interestingly, most of those who have followed the story Very Closely  
> support Paul, suggesting they don?t consider it that big a deal. But  
> 76% of those who consider the comments Very Important to how they  
> will vote now favor Conway.
> Politically speaking, 39% of Democrats describe the comments as Very  
> Important to how they will vote, a view shared by just 13% of  
> Republicans and 17% of voters not affiliated with either major party.
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2010, at 6:25 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> I'm starting to see this as a sign that the Tea Party will be very
>> successful this November.  A lot of time and effort, and soon a lot of
>> money, is being spent on taking down Rand Paul.  Rand Paul has as good
>> of a chance of losing his election as Ron Wyden does here in Oregon.
>> Even if enough money is spent and attacks against him cause him to  
>> lose,
>> at what cost?  That's money and energy being spent on one person while
>> dozens, if not hundreds of other similar candidates will win their
>> elections around the country.
>>
>> The term lighting rod comes to mind..............
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Katie Allnutt wrote:
>>     
>>> Ah the smell of a flip flop in the morning.
>>>
>>>
>>> Katie
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-to-people-
>>> who-dont.html
>>> Commentary: Rand Paul's a hypocrite on Medicare benefits
>>>
>>> McClatchy-Tribune News Service
>>>
>>> The following editorial appeared in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on
>>> Thursday, June 17:
>>>
>>> If there's one thing tea party favorite Rand Paul hates, it's
>>> government handouts.
>>>
>>> Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security - he's against them. That
>>> platform helped him win last month's Republican primary in Kentucky
>>> for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Republican Jim Bunning.
>>>
>>> On the campaign trail, Paul likes to say that the biggest problem we
>>> face is rising debt. He promises to radically cut government  
>>> spending.
>>>
>>> When he's not running for U.S. Senate, Paul is an eye doctor in rural
>>> Kentucky, a poor state with higher-than-average enrollment in
>>> Medicare and Medicaid.
>>>
>>> You might think that Paul would, as a matter of principle, refuse to
>>> accept Medicare and Medicaid payments. You might think that, but you
>>> would be wrong.
>>>
>>> Paul's campaign manager clarified the issue for The Associated Press
>>> this week. Refusing to accept payments from those two government
>>> programs would "penalize his older patients and his poor patients."
>>>
>>> Paul wouldn't want to penalize them like that. Far better to simply
>>> take away their health insurance.
>>>
>>> Whoops. Check that. His campaign manager says Paul opposes cutting
>>> benefits for current Medicare patients.
>>>
>>> So, just to be clear, Paul hates government handouts. But not enough
>>> to stop taking them.
>>>
>>> But he would cut programs that provide those government handouts,
>>> only not for elderly Medicare patients, because that would "penalize"
>>> them.
>>>
>>> Instead, he presumably would cut government handouts to people who
>>> don't currently get them but eventually would if they make the
>>> mistake of growing older.
>>>
>>> Because, as everyone knows, the biggest problem we face is rising
>>> debt. And, perhaps, hypocrisy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/18/96141/cut-benefits-
>>> to-people-who-dont.html#ixzz0rQAbSqGb
>>> xxx
>>>
>>>
>>> xxx
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Mon Jun 21 16:10:24 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:10:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
Message-ID: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com>

Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t-the-media-in
terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler

The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea Party
movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage demonstrates.
Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or perhaps a
lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from illuminating
what the movement actually represents and what it would do if empowered.

Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word stemwinder
<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/>  examining
how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea Party
movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists of. It
tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers, dutifully quotes
their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending, and their
horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus. But the
reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.

There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising taxes, which
Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what spending
should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
<http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the federal
budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social Security and
Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform. Discretionary
domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives. But when
it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than when
demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to cut spending
on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs? (Surely not
Sarah Palin!
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/sarah.palin.
disabilities.children> ) 

"Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to channel their
disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them is to begin
to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But what if
what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed that 44
percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under President
Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even though, in
fact, Obama has cut taxes
<http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> . Might that be
worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers whether
they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their views?

Likewise, a University of Washington poll
<http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea Partiers
to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might it be
possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation are, let's
say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm sure if you
asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits why they
did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why should
journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to interrogate
Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated concerns
about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are you racist?
No? OK, great. Thanks."

A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing the Tea
Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of the media
is epitomized by CNN's item
<http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/index.html?ere
f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+
rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show host Mark
Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party Express.
Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports: opposing the
construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New York and
"leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento City Council
and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council voted to
boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."

This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a movement
dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government selectively
asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the construction of
socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic example of
big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying permits to
an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground Zero? And,
as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to stop and
harass citizens and legal residents?

The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any other
right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of immigration, fear
of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments, opposition to gay
rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add up under
scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers like a
curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the same
standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?


From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Mon Jun 21 18:27:51 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:27:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers'
	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com>
Message-ID: <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>

This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are not 
Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to these 
people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?

I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means I end 
up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution party 
members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea 
Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans, Constitution, 
Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have never 
done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do 
something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes years 
of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political movement 
made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent well 
though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know 
this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.

Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as with 
any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the standard 
of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an accurate 
comparison.

Adam

Jeff Howden wrote:
> Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
> http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t-the-media-in
> terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
> June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler
>
> The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea Party
> movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage demonstrates.
> Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or perhaps a
> lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from illuminating
> what the movement actually represents and what it would do if empowered.
>
> Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word stemwinder
> <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/>  examining
> how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea Party
> movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists of. It
> tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers, dutifully quotes
> their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending, and their
> horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus. But the
> reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
> tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.
>
> There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising taxes, which
> Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what spending
> should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
> <http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the federal
> budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
> foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social Security and
> Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform. Discretionary
> domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives. But when
> it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than when
> demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to cut spending
> on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs? (Surely not
> Sarah Palin!
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/sarah.palin.
> disabilities.children> ) 
>
> "Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to channel their
> disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them is to begin
> to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But what if
> what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed that 44
> percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under President
> Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even though, in
> fact, Obama has cut taxes
> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> . Might that be
> worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers whether
> they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their views?
>
> Likewise, a University of Washington poll
> <http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea Partiers
> to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
> African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might it be
> possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation are, let's
> say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm sure if you
> asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits why they
> did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why should
> journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to interrogate
> Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated concerns
> about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are you racist?
> No? OK, great. Thanks."
>
> A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing the Tea
> Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of the media
> is epitomized by CNN's item
> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/index.html?ere
> f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+
> rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show host Mark
> Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party Express.
> Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports: opposing the
> construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New York and
> "leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento City Council
> and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council voted to
> boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."
>
> This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a movement
> dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government selectively
> asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the construction of
> socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic example of
> big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying permits to
> an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground Zero? And,
> as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
> conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to stop and
> harass citizens and legal residents?
>
> The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any other
> right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of immigration, fear
> of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments, opposition to gay
> rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add up under
> scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers like a
> curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the same
> standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 23:34:04 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:34:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gettting rid of the fat
In-Reply-To: <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2CCF9BB8-E794-4019-AE61-276BC6BC0D32@verizon.net>

I note that the phrase, "get rid of the fat" is a common political criticism leveled against government agencies and business departments.

Well, I would observe that people who have no fat at all are not very healthy.  It is possible to have too much fat, and it is possible to have too little.

I had not known the numbers, but it appears that a healthy person would have 12-20 percent fat.

If women drop below that level they can become infertile.  Low levels can be connected to other health issues as well.

So what?  

Fat forms reserves of necessary items that may not be used every day.  But, in unusual conditions, the "excess" becomes necessary.  Possibly, organizations, like people, benefit from the existence of some "fat" in their organizations for similar reasons.  

David


From jo.david at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 23:42:21 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:42:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Words R Us
In-Reply-To: <1761211112.6219381277140460003.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1761211112.6219381277140460003.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00F271CC-3AF5-4915-931D-0066691F1322@verizon.net>

Funny,  I never thought about it before.

Interesting.

David

On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, donkelly wrote:

> A friend of mine in the East likes to check things out like Scropes does, and like a lot of us, when someone says something that sounds a dull tone, he checks it out.
> 
> Like, Who coined the name United States of America? Was it Thomas Paine as we thought? 
> 
> The correct answer may surprise you.
> 
> don
> <Words R Us.txt>_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 22 07:29:36 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:29:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Words R Us
In-Reply-To: <1761211112.6219381277140460003.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1761211112.6219381277140460003.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4BA4C08C-C80E-4EEE-A531-D295B1178C93@teleport.com>

Ya know, i'd never thought of this either-- just assumed that the  
name had been hammered out in debate by the Continental Congress  
(although, with their lives and fortunes in the balance, i also had  
assumed they got that question over with in a hurry, so as to take up  
truly substantive matters). Given how language develops, however, I  
would not be at all surprised if the name had not been in common  
spoken usage for some time before it was finally put down in print.  
Perhaps it was argued out by tavern politicians, huddling over their  
beer in their favorite haunt..
WW
On Jun 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, donkelly wrote:

> <Words R Us.txt>



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 22 07:42:25 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:42:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers'
	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>

Cogently put, Adam!
And yet... if Tea Partiers are ignorant of politics and uninformed  
about basic facts, yet in a position to unseat experienced and  
principled legislators and replace them with novices who are  equally  
ignorant, or unprincipled demagogues who merely parrot their slogans,  
shouldn't the rest of us be concerned about their motivations and  
core values?
WW

On Jun 21, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are not
> Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to  
> these
> people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?
>
> I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means  
> I end
> up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution party
> members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea
> Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans,  
> Constitution,
> Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have  
> never
> done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do
> something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes  
> years
> of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political movement
> made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent  
> well
> though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know
> this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.
>
> Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as with
> any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the  
> standard
> of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an  
> accurate
> comparison.
>
> Adam
>
> Jeff Howden wrote:
>> Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
>> http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t- 
>> the-media-in
>> terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
>> June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler
>>
>> The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea  
>> Party
>> movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage demonstrates.
>> Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or  
>> perhaps a
>> lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from  
>> illuminating
>> what the movement actually represents and what it would do if  
>> empowered.
>>
>> Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word  
>> stemwinder
>> <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/>   
>> examining
>> how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea Party
>> movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists  
>> of. It
>> tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers,  
>> dutifully quotes
>> their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending,  
>> and their
>> horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus.  
>> But the
>> reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
>> tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.
>>
>> There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising  
>> taxes, which
>> Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what  
>> spending
>> should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
>> <http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the  
>> federal
>> budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
>> foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social  
>> Security and
>> Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform.  
>> Discretionary
>> domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives.  
>> But when
>> it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than  
>> when
>> demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to  
>> cut spending
>> on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs?  
>> (Surely not
>> Sarah Palin!
>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/ 
>> sarah.palin.
>> disabilities.children> )
>>
>> "Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to  
>> channel their
>> disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them  
>> is to begin
>> to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But  
>> what if
>> what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed  
>> that 44
>> percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under  
>> President
>> Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even  
>> though, in
>> fact, Obama has cut taxes
>> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> .  
>> Might that be
>> worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers  
>> whether
>> they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their  
>> views?
>>
>> Likewise, a University of Washington poll
>> <http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea  
>> Partiers
>> to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
>> African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might  
>> it be
>> possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation  
>> are, let's
>> say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm  
>> sure if you
>> asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits  
>> why they
>> did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why should
>> journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to  
>> interrogate
>> Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated  
>> concerns
>> about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are  
>> you racist?
>> No? OK, great. Thanks."
>>
>> A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing  
>> the Tea
>> Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of  
>> the media
>> is epitomized by CNN's item
>> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/ 
>> index.html?ere
>> f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=F 
>> eed%3A+
>> rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show  
>> host Mark
>> Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party Express.
>> Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports:  
>> opposing the
>> construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New York and
>> "leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento  
>> City Council
>> and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council  
>> voted to
>> boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."
>>
>> This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a  
>> movement
>> dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government  
>> selectively
>> asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the construction of
>> socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic example of
>> big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying  
>> permits to
>> an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground  
>> Zero? And,
>> as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
>> conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to  
>> stop and
>> harass citizens and legal residents?
>>
>> The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any other
>> right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of  
>> immigration, fear
>> of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments,  
>> opposition to gay
>> rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add  
>> up under
>> scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers  
>> like a
>> curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the same
>> standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 09:07:46 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:07:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>

Yes we should.  When a number of these people get elected this November, 
it will happen, it'll be interesting whom they take advise from.  The 
Republican party has been trying to sway and influence Tea Party 
candidates, most of them will probably take their advice from them.  I 
will admit that the Libertarian party is also guilty of this too, but 
then again this is politics.  The Democrat party should take the time to 
work with Tea Party candidates before they get elected, it would improve 
their odds of getting the novice Congressman, Senator, State 
Representative, etc to listen to them.

In an election there are two groups of people, those who were with you 
before the election and those who are with you after you win.  The 
people who worked with you before you win are the people you trust and 
will listen to first.  The ones who show up afterwards you don't always 
trust or listen to.  It's just part of human nature.  It's a gamble to 
jump on a bandwagon early but one that pays off if they win.

So if you see a Tea Party / novice candidate who likes like they will 
win in November, I'd recommend get to know them now.  Then next year 
you'll have someone who might take your advise on how to vote on certain 
bills.

Adam

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Cogently put, Adam!
> And yet... if Tea Partiers are ignorant of politics and uninformed  
> about basic facts, yet in a position to unseat experienced and  
> principled legislators and replace them with novices who are  equally  
> ignorant, or unprincipled demagogues who merely parrot their slogans,  
> shouldn't the rest of us be concerned about their motivations and  
> core values?
> WW
>
> On Jun 21, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are not
>> Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to  
>> these
>> people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?
>>
>> I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means  
>> I end
>> up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution party
>> members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea
>> Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans,  
>> Constitution,
>> Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have  
>> never
>> done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do
>> something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes  
>> years
>> of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political movement
>> made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent  
>> well
>> though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know
>> this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.
>>
>> Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as with
>> any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the  
>> standard
>> of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an  
>> accurate
>> comparison.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> Jeff Howden wrote:
>>     
>>> Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
>>> http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t- 
>>> the-media-in
>>> terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
>>> June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler
>>>
>>> The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea  
>>> Party
>>> movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage demonstrates.
>>> Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or  
>>> perhaps a
>>> lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from  
>>> illuminating
>>> what the movement actually represents and what it would do if  
>>> empowered.
>>>
>>> Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word  
>>> stemwinder
>>> <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/>   
>>> examining
>>> how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea Party
>>> movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists  
>>> of. It
>>> tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers,  
>>> dutifully quotes
>>> their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending,  
>>> and their
>>> horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus.  
>>> But the
>>> reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
>>> tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.
>>>
>>> There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising  
>>> taxes, which
>>> Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what  
>>> spending
>>> should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
>>> <http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the  
>>> federal
>>> budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
>>> foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social  
>>> Security and
>>> Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform.  
>>> Discretionary
>>> domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives.  
>>> But when
>>> it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than  
>>> when
>>> demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to  
>>> cut spending
>>> on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs?  
>>> (Surely not
>>> Sarah Palin!
>>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/ 
>>> sarah.palin.
>>> disabilities.children> )
>>>
>>> "Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to  
>>> channel their
>>> disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them  
>>> is to begin
>>> to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But  
>>> what if
>>> what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed  
>>> that 44
>>> percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under  
>>> President
>>> Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even  
>>> though, in
>>> fact, Obama has cut taxes
>>> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> .  
>>> Might that be
>>> worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers  
>>> whether
>>> they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their  
>>> views?
>>>
>>> Likewise, a University of Washington poll
>>> <http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea  
>>> Partiers
>>> to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
>>> African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might  
>>> it be
>>> possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation  
>>> are, let's
>>> say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm  
>>> sure if you
>>> asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits  
>>> why they
>>> did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why should
>>> journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to  
>>> interrogate
>>> Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated  
>>> concerns
>>> about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are  
>>> you racist?
>>> No? OK, great. Thanks."
>>>
>>> A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing  
>>> the Tea
>>> Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of  
>>> the media
>>> is epitomized by CNN's item
>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/ 
>>> index.html?ere
>>> f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=F 
>>> eed%3A+
>>> rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show  
>>> host Mark
>>> Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party Express.
>>> Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports:  
>>> opposing the
>>> construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New York and
>>> "leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento  
>>> City Council
>>> and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council  
>>> voted to
>>> boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."
>>>
>>> This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a  
>>> movement
>>> dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government  
>>> selectively
>>> asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the construction of
>>> socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic example of
>>> big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying  
>>> permits to
>>> an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground  
>>> Zero? And,
>>> as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
>>> conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to  
>>> stop and
>>> harass citizens and legal residents?
>>>
>>> The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any other
>>> right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of  
>>> immigration, fear
>>> of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments,  
>>> opposition to gay
>>> rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add  
>>> up under
>>> scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers  
>>> like a
>>> curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the same
>>> standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From kennybc at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 09:14:54 2010
From: kennybc at verizon.net (Ken Centers)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:14:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Family Show this Weekend at Theatre In The Grove
Message-ID: <201006221614.o5MGEHSB084567@mail.ipinc.net>


Hello,

Just wanted to let everyone know that this weekend Theatre In The 
Grove is opening "The Saddest King" as part of their summer family 
series. Guaranteed to be a great time for kids of all ages.

"The Saddest King" written and directed by former FGHS drama teacher 
Mickey Johnson, includes ballet-loving prince, a swashbuckling 
princess, a wizard, a jester, an overbearing queen, a sad king, and a 
quite friendly dragon.  The adventure begins when everyone tries to 
make the king happy again.

This show has a FREE public performance sponsored by the Forest Grove 
Public Arts Commission on opening night, Friday, June 25 at 7 
pm.  First-come, first-served for the free performance. Other 
performances for only $3 are Saturday, June 26 at 7:00pm, Sunday, 
June 27 at 2:30pm, and Wednesday, June 30 at 7:00pm.

This production runs about one hour long.

For more information you can visit the Theatre In The Grove website 
at www.theatreinthegrove.org.

Take care,
Ken Centers



From waltw at teleport.com  Tue Jun 22 09:43:48 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:43:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>
	<4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D7E1CEF-57E0-4ECC-9DD9-CB90B560EAC7@teleport.com>

> In an election there are two groups of people, those who were with you
> before the election and those who are with you after you win.  The
> people who worked with you before you win are the people you trust and
> will listen to first.  The ones who show up afterwards you don't  
> always
> trust or listen to.  It's just part of human nature.  It's a gamble to
> jump on a bandwagon early but one that pays off if they win.

Yep. Couldn't have put it better.
>
> So if you see a Tea Party / novice candidate who likes like they will
> win in November, I'd recommend get to know them now.  Then next year
> you'll have someone who might take your advise on how to vote on  
> certain
> bills.

Considering some of their positions, that would be "strange  
bedfellows" indeed-- I don't think I could bring myself to patronize  
an economic flat-Earther or a tacit racist, both of which types are  
in evidence among the TP candidates. However, in uncertain and  
unsettled times voters grow more intolerant, frightened and  
suggestible, so you are probably right.
WW
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Cogently put, Adam!
>> And yet... if Tea Partiers are ignorant of politics and uninformed
>> about basic facts, yet in a position to unseat experienced and
>> principled legislators and replace them with novices who are  equally
>> ignorant, or unprincipled demagogues who merely parrot their slogans,
>> shouldn't the rest of us be concerned about their motivations and
>> core values?
>> WW
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are  
>>> not
>>> Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to
>>> these
>>> people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?
>>>
>>> I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means
>>> I end
>>> up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution  
>>> party
>>> members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea
>>> Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans,
>>> Constitution,
>>> Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have
>>> never
>>> done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do
>>> something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes
>>> years
>>> of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political  
>>> movement
>>> made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent
>>> well
>>> though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know
>>> this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.
>>>
>>> Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as  
>>> with
>>> any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the
>>> standard
>>> of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an
>>> accurate
>>> comparison.
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> Jeff Howden wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
>>>> http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t-
>>>> the-media-in
>>>> terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
>>>> June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler
>>>>
>>>> The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea
>>>> Party
>>>> movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage  
>>>> demonstrates.
>>>> Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or
>>>> perhaps a
>>>> lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from
>>>> illuminating
>>>> what the movement actually represents and what it would do if
>>>> empowered.
>>>>
>>>> Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word
>>>> stemwinder
>>>> <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/>
>>>> examining
>>>> how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea  
>>>> Party
>>>> movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists
>>>> of. It
>>>> tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers,
>>>> dutifully quotes
>>>> their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending,
>>>> and their
>>>> horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus.
>>>> But the
>>>> reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
>>>> tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.
>>>>
>>>> There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising
>>>> taxes, which
>>>> Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what
>>>> spending
>>>> should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
>>>> <http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the
>>>> federal
>>>> budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
>>>> foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social
>>>> Security and
>>>> Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform.
>>>> Discretionary
>>>> domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives.
>>>> But when
>>>> it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than
>>>> when
>>>> demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to
>>>> cut spending
>>>> on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs?
>>>> (Surely not
>>>> Sarah Palin!
>>>> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/
>>>> sarah.palin.
>>>> disabilities.children> )
>>>>
>>>> "Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to
>>>> channel their
>>>> disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them
>>>> is to begin
>>>> to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But
>>>> what if
>>>> what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed
>>>> that 44
>>>> percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under
>>>> President
>>>> Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even
>>>> though, in
>>>> fact, Obama has cut taxes
>>>> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> .
>>>> Might that be
>>>> worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers
>>>> whether
>>>> they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their
>>>> views?
>>>>
>>>> Likewise, a University of Washington poll
>>>> <http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea
>>>> Partiers
>>>> to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
>>>> African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might
>>>> it be
>>>> possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation
>>>> are, let's
>>>> say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm
>>>> sure if you
>>>> asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits
>>>> why they
>>>> did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why  
>>>> should
>>>> journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to
>>>> interrogate
>>>> Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated
>>>> concerns
>>>> about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are
>>>> you racist?
>>>> No? OK, great. Thanks."
>>>>
>>>> A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing
>>>> the Tea
>>>> Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of
>>>> the media
>>>> is epitomized by CNN's item
>>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/
>>>> index.html?ere
>>>> f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign 
>>>> =F
>>>> eed%3A+
>>>> rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show
>>>> host Mark
>>>> Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party  
>>>> Express.
>>>> Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports:
>>>> opposing the
>>>> construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New  
>>>> York and
>>>> "leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento
>>>> City Council
>>>> and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council
>>>> voted to
>>>> boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."
>>>>
>>>> This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a
>>>> movement
>>>> dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government
>>>> selectively
>>>> asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the  
>>>> construction of
>>>> socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic  
>>>> example of
>>>> big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying
>>>> permits to
>>>> an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground
>>>> Zero? And,
>>>> as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
>>>> conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to
>>>> stop and
>>>> harass citizens and legal residents?
>>>>
>>>> The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any  
>>>> other
>>>> right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of
>>>> immigration, fear
>>>> of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments,
>>>> opposition to gay
>>>> rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add
>>>> up under
>>>> scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers
>>>> like a
>>>> curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the  
>>>> same
>>>> standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From rab at jurislex.com  Tue Jun 22 10:15:38 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:15:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C20EFBA.3000405@jurislex.com>

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URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100622/1fb02763/attachment.html 

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 22 10:16:16 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:16:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers'
	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b001cb122e$ab4e92c0$01ebb840$@com>

Adam,

> From: Adam Mayer
> 
> Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement,
> as with any other political party and movement, but to hold
> them to the standard of existing political parties and
> movements is not a fair or an accurate comparison.

Of course it's fair.  They're choosing to put themselves in a situation
where comparisons will be made.  If there are inaccuracies it's because they
haven't released accurate information about the party and its goals leaving
everyone else (citizens and the media) to guess.  So long as there's not a
statement from the party on what they stand for then their candidate
endorsements ought to be huge red flags to the average voting citizen.

Jeff



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Tue Jun 22 10:31:05 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:31:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	TeaPartiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C20EFBA.3000405@jurislex.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C20EFBA.3000405@jurislex.com>
Message-ID: <DC91DA0357064F008D4876BE9C9C2715@GeriPC>

Bob, if what you send is 'swill,' it is appreciated anyway.  ;-)


  Geri


From: Bob Browning
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:15 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate TeaPartiers' 
Beliefs?


So interesting how the World just goes round and round. Also interesting how 
the Tea Partiers sound so much like the Know Nothings!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

Just some swill to think about ! ! !

bob "I know nothing" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 6/21/2010 6:27 PM, Adam Mayer wrote:
This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are not
Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to these
people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?

I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means I end
up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution party
members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea
Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans, Constitution,
Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have never
done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do
something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes years
of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political movement
made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent well
though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know
this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.

Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as with
any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the standard
of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an accurate
comparison.

Adam


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 22 11:26:05 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:26:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Blocks Moratorium On Gulf Offshore Drilling
Message-ID: <00f601cb1238$61cd8ac0$2568a040$@com>

So, does anyone wonder if this is a judge making a ruling based on the law
or based on his affiliation with or influence from big oil? Just how bad
would this spill need to be to warrant an industry-wide moratorium so that
the safety of the industry as a whole could be reviewed?

Jeff

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Judge Blocks Moratorium On Gulf Offshore Drilling
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128010045
June 22, 2010 by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

A federal judge in New Orleans on Tuesday blocked a six-month moratorium on
new deepwater drilling projects imposed in response to the massive Gulf oil
spill.

The White House said the administration would appeal. It had halted approval
of any new permits for deepwater drilling and suspended drilling at 33
exploratory wells in the Gulf.

Several companies that ferry people and supplies and provide other services
to offshore drilling rigs asked U.S. District Judge Martin Feldman in New
Orleans to overturn the moratorium, arguing it was arbitrarily imposed.

Feldman agreed, saying in his ruling that the Interior Department failed to
provide adequate reasoning for the moratorium. He said it seemed to assume
that because one rig failed, all companies and rigs doing deepwater drilling
pose an imminent danger.

"An invalid agency decision to suspend drilling of wells in depths of over
500 feet simply cannot justify the immeasurable effect on the plaintiffs,
the local economy, the Gulf region, and the critical present-day aspect of
the availability of domestic energy in this country," Feldman wrote.

The moratorium was imposed after the April 20 explosion on the Deepwater
Horizon drilling rig that killed 11 workers and blew out the well that has
spewed millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf.

The Interior Department said it imposed the moratorium so it could study the
risks of deepwater drilling. But the lawsuit filed by Hornbeck Offshore
Services of Covington, La., claimed there was no proof the other operations
posed a threat.

The moratorium was declared May 6 and originally was to last only through
the month. President Obama announced May 27 that he was extending it for six
months.

In Louisiana, Gov. Bobby Jindal and corporate leaders have opposed the
moratorium, saying it will result in drilling rigs leaving the Gulf of
Mexico for lucrative business in foreign waters. They say the loss of
business will cost the area thousands of lucrative jobs, most paying more
than $50,000 a year. The state's other major economic sector, tourism, is a
largely low-wage industry.

In its response to the lawsuit, the Interior Department said the moratorium
is necessary as attempts to stop the leak and clean the Gulf continue and
new safety standards are developed.

"A second deepwater blowout could overwhelm the efforts to respond to the
current disaster," the Interior Department said.

The government also challenged contentions the moratorium will lead to
long-term economic harm. Although 33 deepwater drilling sites were affected,
there are still 3,600 oil and natural gas production platforms in the Gulf,
the government said.


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 22 11:58:33 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:58:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
	Partiers'Beliefs?
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>

Thank you Adam and Jeff. Adam makes a good point that I have suggested
before, visit the Tea Party web site to see what they are about.

Jeff below has summarized a few things they believe in, but also summarized
a few things only supported by the fringe of the Tea Party.

Their mission is: A community committed to standing together, shoulder to
shoulder, to protect our country and the Constitution upon which we were
founded! 

I don't know how they know, but various comments about the Tea Party,  pro
and con, spill out over the Internet and written media. One claim is that
the Tea Party has about 25 million overt supporters, with another 100
million drop in and visit nominal supporters.

The Tea Party holds a few simple concepts, but their interests spread out
from there, and out on the fringe are a few that should belong to the Coffee
Party, or belong to any party that does not support the core values of the
Tea Party. 

By the way, the Coffee Party was formed to slow down the landslide support 
of the Tea Party, and while their mission statement is, "Support whatever
the president wants to do", it seems to me that some of their fringe group
should actually belong to the Tea Party.

So as Jeff suggested, it is hard to get a handle on where the Tea Party is
going today, what they will support today. 

I have attached a list of subjects (no details) they have thrown in over the
last few days. It is long and few will read it, but if you do read it, the
rage of the voters will show through, and make clearer why their iconic logo
is in part based on the angry retiree yelling and shaking his finger in the
face of Specter last August.

People are angry, and every time Obama over reaches, the democrats lose more
votes. 

And that is the way it will go until the president awakens from his nap. 

Respectfully 

Donkelly 

 
-------Original Message-------

From: Adam Mayer
Date: 6/21/2010 6:28:21 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers
Beliefs?
 
This is not an attack or a criticism, but have any of you who are not
Tea Party members go to any events, meetings and/or have talked to these
people?  And not just one or two but dozens or hundreds of them?
 
I'm not a member of the Tea Party, I am a Libertarian.  This means I end
up working with Democrats, Republicans, Greens and Constitution party
members (not often with the Constitution party thankfully).  The Tea
Party is mostly Independents with a bunch of Republicans, Constitution,
Democrat and Greens in ranking order.  Almost all are people have never
done politics before.  They are frustrated, angry and wanting to do
something.  Politics is not something you just jump into, it takes years
of practice, hard work and training.  Looking at a political movement
made up of predominantly novices you are not going to get coherent well
though out and detailed answers when you ask them questions.  I know
this from watching many Libertarians struggle over the years.
 
Granted there are kooks and yahoos in the Tea Party movement, as with
any other political party and movement, but to hold them to the standard
of existing political parties and movements is not a fair or an accurate
comparison.
 
Adam
 
Jeff Howden wrote:
> Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea Partiers' Beliefs?
> http://www.newsweek
com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/06/21/why-doesn-t-the-media-in
> terrogate-tea-partiers-beliefs.html
> June 21, 2010 by Ben Adler
>
> The media's enduring, and understandable, fascination with the Tea Party
> movement continues unabated, as this weekend's coverage demonstrates.
> Unfortunately, what appear to be false notions of objectivity-or perhaps a
> lack of interest in policy-is preventing that coverage from illuminating
> what the movement actually represents and what it would do if empowered.
>
> Case in point: the Associated Press just published a 2,300 word stemwinder
> <http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803331/ns/politics-more_politics/> 
examining
> how and why a variety of individuals became involved in the Tea Party
> movement without once asking what precisely the platform consists of. It
> tells you the back stories of representative Tea Partiers, dutifully
quotes
> their antipathy toward government, taxes, and deficit spending, and their
> horror at the accusation that they are motivated by racial animus. But the
> reporter seems never to have posed any serious questions about what
> tradeoffs they would make to achieve their stated goals.
>
> There are only two ways to balance a budget in the red: raising taxes,
which
> Tea Partiers vehemently oppose, and cutting spending. But what spending
> should be cut? Defense and veterans spending, which accounts for 54
> <http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm>  percent of the federal
> budget? It would be pretty hard to merge that with the Republicans'
> foreign-policy-hawk wing. Entitlement spending such as Social Security and
> Medicare? Good luck winning elections with that platform. Discretionary
> domestic spending is the favorite target of fiscal conservatives. But when
> it comes to specifics, suddenly every program seems worthier than when
> demonized in the collective abstract. Which politician wants to cut
spending
> on Homeland Security? Education for students with special needs? (Surely
not
> Sarah Palin!
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/07/sarah
palin.
> disabilities.children> )
>
> "Concerned Americans trying to find their voices, and a way to channel
their
> disgust," the AP earnestly reports. "To hear what motivates them is to
begin
> to understand what's going on in American politics in 2010." But what if
> what motivates them is ignorance? A CBS/New York Times poll showed that 44
> percent of Tea Partiers believe their taxes have gone up under President
> Obama, and only 2 percent believed they have gone down, even though, in
> fact, Obama has cut taxes
> <http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6201911-503544.html> . Might that
be
> worth bringing to bear? Maybe we should even ask the Tea Partiers whether
> they are aware of the reality on taxes and if that changes their views?
>
> Likewise, a University of Washington poll
> <http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html>  found Tea Partiers
> to be roughly twice as likely to have negative attitudes about
> African-Americans and immigrants as the general population. Might it be
> possible that the Tea Partiers who profess no racial motivation are, let's
> say, not entirely aware of their own visceral motivations? I'm sure if you
> asked the Southern voters who switched to Republican voting habits why
they
> did so, many would say race had nothing to do with it. But why should
> journalists take that at face value? Isn't it more effective to
interrogate
> Tea Partiers' views on race and where they might meet their stated
concerns
> about, say, welfare or health care, than to just ask, "Hey, are you
racist?
> No? OK, great. Thanks."
>
> A terrific example of the contradictions and incoherence plaguing the Tea
> Party movement's platform, and the free ride they get from much of the
media
> is epitomized by CNN's item
> <http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/19/tea.party.resignation/index
html?ere
>
f=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+
> rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29>  on radio-talk-show host
Mark
> Williams giving up his role as the chairman of the Tea Party Express.
> Williams wants to focus on two activist crusades, CNN reports: opposing
the
> construction of a mosque near the site of Ground Zero in New York and
> "leading a recall effort against some members of the Sacramento City
Council
> and running for a spot on the local body himself after the council voted
to
> boycott Arizona over its new immigration law."
>
> This strikes me as a very curious pair of causes for a leader of a
movement
> dedicated to preventing government activism. If the government selectively
> asserts aggressive land-use regulation to prevent the construction of
> socially disfavored buildings, is that not a paradigmatic example of
> big-government market distortion? Would Williams support denying permits
to
> an otherwise zoning-law-compliant church or synagogue near Ground Zero?
And,
> as conservative commentator Matthew Lewis points out, shouldn't
> conservatives be opposed to laws that empower the government to stop and
> harass citizens and legal residents?
>
> The closer you look, the more the Tea Party just looks like any other
> right-wing populist movement: it is motivated by fear of immigration, fear
> of new religious modes of expression, racial resentments, opposition to
gay
> rights, and claims about taxes and spending that often don't add up under
> scrutiny. Isn't it time that we stopped treating the Tea Partiers like a
> curious sociological phenomenon and starting holding them to the same
> standards we should hold all mainstream politicians to?
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 22 12:02:36 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:02:36 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gettting rid of the fat
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<2CCF9BB8-E794-4019-AE61-276BC6BC0D32@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C2108CA.000015.04004@DON-B2514E06367>

 
Poignant point David. 

I get it. 

And for all it matters, I agree.

Don
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/21/2010 11:35:16 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Gettting rid of the fat
 
I note that the phrase, "get rid of the fat" is a common political criticism
leveled against government agencies and business departments.
 
Well, I would observe that people who have no fat at all are not very
healthy.  It is possible to have too much fat, and it is possible to have
too little.
 
I had not known the numbers, but it appears that a healthy person would have
12-20 percent fat.
 
If women drop below that level they can become infertile.  Low levels can be
connected to other health issues as well.
 
So what?
 
Fat forms reserves of necessary items that may not be used every day.  But,
in unusual conditions, the "excess" becomes necessary.  Possibly,
organizations, like people, benefit from the existence of some "fat" in
their organizations for similar reasons.
 
David
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Tue Jun 22 12:49:08 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:49:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
References: <003e01cb1173$a89e77e0$f9db67a0$@com>	<4C1FBFF8.000005.03484@DON-B2514E06367>
	<005b01cb117b$423facf0$c6bf06d0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C2113B1.000024.04004@DON-B2514E06367>

I stand corrected Jeff. I respectfully amend the figures that I stated below


Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/21/2010 1:23:14 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> Surely the national priorities are skewed, on top of 13
> trillion dollars in debt, another 500 million for terrorists
> organizations, and congress suggests another 500 billion
> stimulus.
>
> Is that a bad joke, even a sad joke?
 
It must be your attempt at a sad joke seeing as how you batted 1 for 3 in
those claims.
 
13 trillion dollars in national debt: True

500 million dollars for terrorist organizations: False
Word Press sets the figure at 400 million, and Hesbolla and Hamas will get
most of it.

500 billion dollars more in stimulus: False
Proposed bill for new stimulus package, labeled PORKULAS II by "Stimulus
Tracking"; congress is now  up to 787.2 billion dollars and still plumping
it up.
 
You could improve your batting average by successfully documenting two
Claims labeled false.

Has my batting average improved Jeff?
Don
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 22 14:14:33 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:14:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Are There No Prisons? Are There No Dumpsters?
In-Reply-To: <4C2113B1.000024.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <003e01cb1173$a89e77e0$f9db67a0$@com>
	<4C1FBFF8.000005.03484@DON-B2514E06367>
	<005b01cb117b$423facf0$c6bf06d0$@com>
	<4C2113B1.000024.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <012e01cb124f$ea4751d0$bed5f570$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I stand corrected Jeff. I respectfully amend the
> figures that I stated below.

Thank you.

> > 500 million dollars for terrorist organizations: False
> 
> Word Press sets the figure at 400 million, and Hesbolla
> and Hamas will get most of it.

Word Press is blog software, not a source for news.  You didn't link to
anything so I had to search for it myself.  In the future, cite your source
which means link to it, so others can read up on it.

Here's what I found:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/9/palestinians-get-400-million-
in-us-aid/

Sending $400 million in aid to "build schools, houses and develop
businesses" is *not* the same thing as you're suggesting which is that
"Hesbolla (sic) and Hamas will get most of it".

For what it's worth, this is an example of using a kernel of truth ($400
million in aid to Palestine) combined with a falsity (Hesbolla [sic] and
Hamas will get most of it) to try to confuse people.  You may not be the
source of this nonsense, but you're not doing yourself or anyone else any
favors by repeating it.  If you're the source of it, then you're
intentionally lying.

> > 500 billion dollars more in stimulus: False
> 
> Proposed bill for new stimulus package, labeled PORKULAS II
> by "Stimulus Tracking"; congress is now  up to 787.2 billion
> dollars and still plumping it up.

Searching for "Stimulus Tracking" just turns up references to the
government's website -- recovery.org.  I don't think that's what you're
talking about.  Searching for "PORKULAS (sic) II" doesn't turn up anything
conclusive one way or another.  Some further digging turned up this article:

The White House Readies a Stealth Stimulus
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1930932,00.html

I think you're confusing the first stimulus total of nearly $800 billion
with this possible second stimulus that is currently projected to only hit
$100 billion, at the most.

Again, you mention vague data, but you don't link to anything to back up the
loose details in your claims.  Please link to things.

> > You could improve your batting average by successfully
> > documenting two Claims labeled false.
> 
> Has my batting average improved Jeff?

Not yet it hasn't.  So far you've not successfully documented either of your
claims.  I've added extra info to the discussion and, at this point, your
claims don't stand up to the evidence.  However, if you have additional
information that I haven't brought to light, please go ahead and *link to
it* so we can all benefit from it.

As it stands right now though, it's still 1 for 3 in the truth department.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 22 14:33:04 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:33:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
	Partiers'Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <013401cb1252$806e6d90$814b48b0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Thank you Adam and Jeff. Adam makes a good point that I
> have suggested before, visit the Tea Party web site to
> see what they are about.


The problem is the movement is so factioned it's extremely difficult to know
which site is the official site.

Is it this one with all of the nonsense news items that aren't actually
true:
http://teaparty.org/

Is it this site that doesn't have any official statement on positions (other
than a very brief, no-solutions mission statement), but claims to be the
official home of the Tea Party?
http://teapartypatriots.com/

Or is it this GOP-funded group that totes Sarah Palin and other z-list
political celebrities around to speak all over the country?
http://www.teapartyexpress.org/home

Or is it the National Tea Party Federation?
http://nationalteapartyfederation.com/

Or, perhaps the talking-out-both-sides-of-their-face Tea Party Nation that
says they believe in free speech, but regularly censors members' posts on
their website.
http://www.teapartynation.com/

> Jeff below has summarized a few things they believe
> in, but also summarized a few things only supported
> by the fringe of the Tea Party.

First, I didn't summarize anything.  This was from an article by Newsweek. 

Second, the items listed are the ones that bubbled up to the top through
word analysis.  So, perhaps some of the things you believe are fringe Tea
Party issues are actually more central than you'd originally thought.

Interestingly, I found another study done a few months ago now that looked
at the people that generally make up the Tea Party movement.

http://patchworknation.csmonitor.com/csmstaff/2010/0317/a-tea-party-census-w
here-members-live-and-why-thats-important/

> Their mission is: A community committed to standing
> together, shoulder to shoulder, to protect our country
> and the Constitution upon which we were founded!

To be frank, that mission statement doesn't separate the members of the Tea
Party movement from any other American.  That mission statement doesn't do
anything to identify what actual position on issues that the Tea Party
takes, the problems as they see them, and the solutions as they see them.

> I don't know how they know, but various comments about
> the Tea Party, pro and con, spill out over the Internet
> and written media.

You just identified *exactly* how they know.

> [...] One claim is that the Tea Party has about 25 million
> overt supporters, with another 100 million drop in and
> visit nominal supporters.

I couldn't find anything that would hazard a guess about the number of overt
or nominal supporters.  Where are you getting your numbers from?

> By the way, the Coffee Party was formed to slow down the
> landslide support of the Tea Party, [...]

It wasn't formed to slow down the landslide support of the Tea Party.  It
was formed as an alternative for those that didn't want to get involved with
something that involved yelling the loudest to be heard, throwing temper
tantrums, and general incivility and obstructionism.

> [...] and while their mission statement is, "Support
> whatever the president wants to do", [...]

That's nonsense.  You didn't even bother to read their mission statement,
did you?

"The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans
 who want to see cooperation in government. We
 recognize that the federal government is not the
 enemy of the people, but the expression of our
 collective will, and that we must participate in
 the democratic process in order to address the
 challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and
 grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who
 work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable
 those who obstruct them."

http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/content/about-us

> [...] it seems to me that some of their fringe group
> should actually belong to the Tea Party.

As they welcome members of the Tea Party movement, that's not surprising.
Those members that you'd label as "their fringe group" likely *are* members
of the Tea Party movement.

> So as Jeff suggested, it is hard to get a handle on
> where the Tea Party is going today, what they will
> support today.

It is precisely that difficulty in getting a handle on the Tea Party
movement that makes it dangerous to vote for any candidate that's
endorsed/backed by them.

What I *can* get a handle on gives me great cause for concern.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/what-tea-party-backers-wan
t/

> I have attached a list of subjects (no details) they
> have thrown in over the last few days. It is long and
> few will read it, but if you do read it, the rage of
> the voters will show through, and make clearer why
> their iconic logo is in part based on the angry
> retiree yelling and shaking his finger in the face
> of Specter last August.

The rage I found in the attachment is almost entirely misplaced.  It's aimed
at things that aren't even true.  There's so much energy put into made up
causes, made up issues, and made up stories.  It's sad really.  If half that
energy was put into things of substance and for a positive good, so much
could be accomplished.  Instead it's wasted on spewing poisonous invective
over anyone unlucky enough to stumble upon it.

> People are angry, and every time Obama over reaches, the
> democrats lose more votes.

The votes affected by the Tea Party don't yet amount to much though --
certainly nothing like the hype the Tea Party would like you to believe.

> And that is the way it will go until the president
> awakens from his nap.

Funny, I see a president that has been going almost non-stop since he was
inaugurated.  Perhaps we aren't talking about the same guy.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Tue Jun 22 14:44:33 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:44:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
Message-ID: <015101cb1254$1b6d1e80$52475b80$@com>


Hmmmm, well my thoughts about a conflict of interest in this case seem to
have had some merit.


Jeff


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium invests in oil industry
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/22/judge-moratorium-energy-portfolio/
June 22, 2010 by ThinkProgress


Today, Judge Martin Feldman <http://judgepedia.org/index.php/Martin_Feldman>
, a U.S. District Court Judge for the Eastern District of Louisiana, sided
with a drilling company which had argued that the Obama administration's
blanket,
<http://www.doi.gov/news/pressreleases/Interior-Issues-Directive-to-Guide-Sa
fe-Six-Month-Moratorium-on-Deepwater-Drilling.cfm>  6-month moratorium on
deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico was illegal. The drilling company,
Hornbeck Offshore Services of Covington, LA, claimed financial distress from
the imposition of the moratorium. In the ruling handed down this afternoon,
Judge Feldman agreed, writing that the administration made an "arbitrary and
capricious" decision that would have an "immeasurable effect on the
plaintiffs, the local economy, the Gulf region, and the critical present-day
aspect of the availability of domestic energy in this country." Like many
judges presiding in the Gulf region, Feldman owns lots of energy stocks,
including Transocean, Halliburton, and two of BP's largest U.S. private
shareholders - BlackRock (7.1%) and JP Morgan Chase (28.3%). Here's a list
of <http://www.judicialwatch.org/jfd/Feldman_Martin_L_C/2008.pdf>  Feldman's
income in 2008 (amounts listed unless under $1,000):

.         JP Morgan Chase, BlackRock
<http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/Who_Owns_BP__Biggest_Shareholder
_is_JPMorgan_Chase_100612>  ($12000- $36000)

.         Ocean Energy <http://www.oceaneng.com/about.htm>  ($1000 - $2500)

.         NGP Capital Resources <http://www.ngpcrc.com/>  ($1000 - $2500)

.         Quicksilver Resources <http://www.qrinc.com/>  ($5000 - $15000)

.         Hercules Offshore
<http://www.herculesoffshore.com/about_overview.html>  ($6000 - $17500)

.         Provident Energy <http://www.providentenergy.com/> 

.         Peabody Energy <http://www.peabodyenergy.com/> 

.         PenGrowth Energy <http://www.pengrowth.com/> 

.         RPC Inc <http://www.rpc.net/> 

.         Atlas Energy Resources
<http://www.atlasenergyresources.com/about.aspx> 

.         Parker Drilling <http://www.parkerdrilling.com/> 

.         TXCO Resources <http://www.txco.com/profile.html> 

.         EV Energy Partners <http://www.evenergypartners.com/> 

.         Rowan Companies
<http://www.rowancompanies.com/fw/main/Home-1.html> 

.         BPZ Resources <http://www.bpzenergy.com/> 

.         El Paso Corp <http://www.elpaso.com/profile/default.shtm> 

.         KBR Inc <http://www.kbr.com/Markets/Hydrocarbons/Oil-and-Gas/> 

.         Chesapeake Energy <http://www.chk.com/About/Pages/Default.aspx> 

.         ATP Oil  <http://www.atpog.com/about.html> & Gas

In his opinion today, Feldman wrote, "Oil and gas production is quite
<http://www.laed.uscourts.gov/GENERAL/Notices/10-1663_doc67.pdf>  simply
elemental to Gulf communities." Indeed, it is so elemental that the justice
system is invested in the oil and gas industry. As TP's Ian Millhiser has
written, "Industry ties among federal judges are so widespread that they are
beginning to endanger the courts <http://thinkprogress.org/?p=100961> '
ability to conduct routine business. Last month, so many members of the
right-wing Fifth Circuit were forced to recuse themselves from an appeal
against various energy and chemical companies that there weren't enough
untainted judges left to allow the court to hear the case."


From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 21:48:47 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:48:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gettting rid of the fat
In-Reply-To: <4C2108CA.000015.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<2CCF9BB8-E794-4019-AE61-276BC6BC0D32@verizon.net>
	<4C2108CA.000015.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <89311A18-F553-4542-AE35-62F08140C0D5@verizon.net>

Thank you.

David

On Jun 22, 2010, at 12:02 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Poignant point David. 
> 
> I get it. 
> 
> And for all it matters, I agree.
> 
> Don


From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 22:06:33 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:06:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	Tea	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>
	<4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BD24C69-F345-458C-AB98-FA649750D932@verizon.net>

Two observations.

First, when term limits were put into place, the state legislatures lost their long term members who held most of the "tribal knowledge".  The new comers were forced to move into positions where they didn't know the history or the legal protocols.  Generally they turned to legislative staff for support.  As a result, bureaucrats became more powerful at the expense of elective officials.  If the Tea Party is successful in removing large numbers of incumbents, we could see more of that in the coming elections.  

Second, any elected official, especially a newbie will need to establish a financial base to run for re-election.  The incumbents have already done this.  So, the wash of new elected officials will be spending time building financial connections and becoming available to various lobbyists.  If they have a long political career behind them before running on the Tea Party banner, then they should be properly skeptical of the lobbyists.  If they are fresh meat, I would expect the career lobbyists will enjoy the meal.

Change can be beneficial if it is at an appropriate speed.  Too much change, too quickly can be a real problem.  As they say, falling out of an airplane doesn't hurt you, it is the "sudden stop" that does you in.

David

On Jun 22, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Yes we should.  When a number of these people get elected this November, it will happen, it'll be interesting whom they take advise from.  The Republican party has been trying to sway and influence Tea Party candidates, most of them will probably take their advice from them.  I will admit that the Libertarian party is also guilty of this too, but then again this is politics.  The Democrat party should take the time to work with Tea Party candidates before they get elected, it would improve their odds of getting the novice Congressman, Senator, State Representative, etc to listen to them.
> 
> ...
> So if you see a Tea Party / novice candidate who likes like they will win in November, I'd recommend get to know them now.  Then next year you'll have someone who might take your advise on how to vote on certain bills.
> 
> Adam



From jo.david at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 22:13:39 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:13:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <015101cb1254$1b6d1e80$52475b80$@com>
References: <015101cb1254$1b6d1e80$52475b80$@com>
Message-ID: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>

At the very minimum, the EPA or appropriate agency should be reviewing the Blow Out Preventer documentation and testing for all proposed drilling.  

They should also start taking testimony on the necessity of relief wells for all deep water wells.  In the interim, those that meet typical international standards may proceed, those that wish to rely upon the lighter current standard may wait.

David


On Jun 22, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> 
> Hmmmm, well my thoughts about a conflict of interest in this case seem to have had some merit.
> 
> 
> Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 23:13:51 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:13:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Blocks Moratorium On Gulf Offshore Drilling
In-Reply-To: <00f601cb1238$61cd8ac0$2568a040$@com>
References: <00f601cb1238$61cd8ac0$2568a040$@com>
Message-ID: <4A7053D1-5512-4FA9-9C40-0CEF2F15263E@verizon.net>

Texas is one of the few states that elect their judges and getting  
elected takes money.
One of the reasons suggested for BP's trying to get all the law suits  
moved to a Texas venue is because it is estimated that up to 80% of  
all the judges were elected with oil industry money.

We as citizens need to learn the lesson from the Cuyahoga River  
fire.   There had been smaller fires on the river but no one could  
stand up to the power of the industrial pollutants until it got so  
bad the whole river was on fire and the disaster couldn't be  
justified by economic necessity.
Are we at that point in deep water drilling? Is it bad enough that it  
can't be ignored.
When we have congressmen apologizing to BP, republican governors like  
Jindal screaming for all drilling to resume immediately, and the  
senate not able to pass any regulatory reform because of filibusters,  
it seems clear that things are not bad enough yet.
We can pull our hair out and write to our representatives all we want  
but things will not change until there are enough angry voters to  
overpower the big money.  I'm not even sure there are enough of them  
in the gulf coast to get the gulf coast states to vote for  
representatives who will hold the oil industry's feet to the fire.  
There are too many people obsessed with giving the industry tax  
breaks and subsidies and waiving royalties for them.

Katie


On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> So, does anyone wonder if this is a judge making a ruling based on  
> the law
> or based on his affiliation with or influence from big oil? Just  
> how bad
> would this spill need to be to warrant an industry-wide moratorium  
> so that
> the safety of the industry as a whole could be reviewed?
>
> Jeff
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Judge Blocks Moratorium On Gulf Offshore Drilling
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128010045
> June 22, 2010 by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
> A federal judge in New Orleans on Tuesday blocked a six-month  
> moratorium on
> new deepwater drilling projects imposed in response to the massive  
> Gulf oil
> spill.
>
> The White House said the administration would appeal. It had halted  
> approval
> of any new permits for deepwater drilling and suspended drilling at 33
> exploratory wells in the Gulf.
>
> Several companies that ferry people and supplies and provide other  
> services
> to offshore drilling rigs asked U.S. District Judge Martin Feldman  
> in New
> Orleans to overturn the moratorium, arguing it was arbitrarily  
> imposed.
>
> Feldman agreed, saying in his ruling that the Interior Department  
> failed to
> provide adequate reasoning for the moratorium. He said it seemed to  
> assume
> that because one rig failed, all companies and rigs doing deepwater  
> drilling
> pose an imminent danger.
>
> "An invalid agency decision to suspend drilling of wells in depths  
> of over
> 500 feet simply cannot justify the immeasurable effect on the  
> plaintiffs,
> the local economy, the Gulf region, and the critical present-day  
> aspect of
> the availability of domestic energy in this country," Feldman wrote.
>
> The moratorium was imposed after the April 20 explosion on the  
> Deepwater
> Horizon drilling rig that killed 11 workers and blew out the well  
> that has
> spewed millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf.
>
> The Interior Department said it imposed the moratorium so it could  
> study the
> risks of deepwater drilling. But the lawsuit filed by Hornbeck  
> Offshore
> Services of Covington, La., claimed there was no proof the other  
> operations
> posed a threat.
>
> The moratorium was declared May 6 and originally was to last only  
> through
> the month. President Obama announced May 27 that he was extending  
> it for six
> months.
>
> In Louisiana, Gov. Bobby Jindal and corporate leaders have opposed the
> moratorium, saying it will result in drilling rigs leaving the Gulf of
> Mexico for lucrative business in foreign waters. They say the loss of
> business will cost the area thousands of lucrative jobs, most  
> paying more
> than $50,000 a year. The state's other major economic sector,  
> tourism, is a
> largely low-wage industry.
>
> In its response to the lawsuit, the Interior Department said the  
> moratorium
> is necessary as attempts to stop the leak and clean the Gulf  
> continue and
> new safety standards are developed.
>
> "A second deepwater blowout could overwhelm the efforts to respond  
> to the
> current disaster," the Interior Department said.
>
> The government also challenged contentions the moratorium will lead to
> long-term economic harm. Although 33 deepwater drilling sites were  
> affected,
> there are still 3,600 oil and natural gas production platforms in  
> the Gulf,
> the government said.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 00:09:34 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 07:09:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or how it happened.

I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did it have the normal double back up systems. Seems a tripple failure would be a very long shot, a million to one chance jumps to mind.

don 
----- Original Message -----
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium invests in oil industry

At the very minimum, the EPA or appropriate agency should be reviewing the Blow Out Preventer documentation and testing for all proposed drilling.  

They should also start taking testimony on the necessity of relief wells for all deep water wells.  In the interim, those that meet typical international standards may proceed, those that wish to rely upon the lighter current standard may wait.

David


On Jun 22, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> 
> Hmmmm, well my thoughts about a conflict of interest in this case seem to have had some merit.
> 
> 
> Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 00:15:49 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 07:15:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	Tea	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <7BD24C69-F345-458C-AB98-FA649750D932@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <2141030193.6940291277277349756.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I think that might work for the democrats guys, perhaps too little too late.

The democrats have been so arrogant, made the Tea Party and others so angry with their pomposity, that getting democratic support from anyone will be difficult. All thay want to do is flush the arrogant ones and support the others.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:06:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea	Partiers'	Beliefs?

Two observations.

First, when term limits were put into place, the state legislatures lost their long term members who held most of the "tribal knowledge".  The new comers were forced to move into positions where they didn't know the history or the legal protocols.  Generally they turned to legislative staff for support.  As a result, bureaucrats became more powerful at the expense of elective officials.  If the Tea Party is successful in removing large numbers of incumbents, we could see more of that in the coming elections.  

Second, any elected official, especially a newbie will need to establish a financial base to run for re-election.  The incumbents have already done this.  So, the wash of new elected officials will be spending time building financial connections and becoming available to various lobbyists.  If they have a long political career behind them before running on the Tea Party banner, then they should be properly skeptical of the lobbyists.  If they are fresh meat, I would expect the career lobbyists will enjoy the meal.

Change can be beneficial if it is at an appropriate speed.  Too much change, too quickly can be a real problem.  As they say, falling out of an airplane doesn't hurt you, it is the "sudden stop" that does you in.

David

On Jun 22, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Yes we should.  When a number of these people get elected this November, it will happen, it'll be interesting whom they take advise from.  The Republican party has been trying to sway and influence Tea Party candidates, most of them will probably take their advice from them.  I will admit that the Libertarian party is also guilty of this too, but then again this is politics.  The Democrat party should take the time to work with Tea Party candidates before they get elected, it would improve their odds of getting the novice Congressman, Senator, State Representative, etc to listen to them.
> 
> ...
> So if you see a Tea Party / novice candidate who likes like they will win in November, I'd recommend get to know them now.  Then next year you'll have someone who might take your advise on how to vote on certain bills.
> 
> Adam


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From adamsmayer at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 06:04:26 2010
From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 06:04:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media
	Interrogate	Tea	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <7BD24C69-F345-458C-AB98-FA649750D932@verizon.net>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>	<4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
	<7BD24C69-F345-458C-AB98-FA649750D932@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C22065A.3050004@gmail.com>

Very valid points David, I agree.

Adam

David Morelli wrote:
> Two observations.
>
> First, when term limits were put into place, the state legislatures lost their long term members who held most of the "tribal knowledge".  The new comers were forced to move into positions where they didn't know the history or the legal protocols.  Generally they turned to legislative staff for support.  As a result, bureaucrats became more powerful at the expense of elective officials.  If the Tea Party is successful in removing large numbers of incumbents, we could see more of that in the coming elections.  
>
> Second, any elected official, especially a newbie will need to establish a financial base to run for re-election.  The incumbents have already done this.  So, the wash of new elected officials will be spending time building financial connections and becoming available to various lobbyists.  If they have a long political career behind them before running on the Tea Party banner, then they should be properly skeptical of the lobbyists.  If they are fresh meat, I would expect the career lobbyists will enjoy the meal.
>
> Change can be beneficial if it is at an appropriate speed.  Too much change, too quickly can be a real problem.  As they say, falling out of an airplane doesn't hurt you, it is the "sudden stop" that does you in.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 22, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>
>   
>> Yes we should.  When a number of these people get elected this November, it will happen, it'll be interesting whom they take advise from.  The Republican party has been trying to sway and influence Tea Party candidates, most of them will probably take their advice from them.  I will admit that the Libertarian party is also guilty of this too, but then again this is politics.  The Democrat party should take the time to work with Tea Party candidates before they get elected, it would improve their odds of getting the novice Congressman, Senator, State Representative, etc to listen to them.
>>
>> ...
>> So if you see a Tea Party / novice candidate who likes like they will win in November, I'd recommend get to know them now.  Then next year you'll have someone who might take your advise on how to vote on certain bills.
>>
>> Adam
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   


From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 23 07:12:31 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 07:12:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>

A pity the failed BOP is so massive and inaccessible, so it will  
probably never be examined firsthand-- probably a good thing for BP,  
Halliburton et al.  But, as Katie has pointed out, do we the people  
hove enough unity and indignation yet to overcome the all-pervasive  
influence of Big Oil, and enact strict limits and multiple safeguards  
on future drilling?
Probably not.  We'll have to suffer considerably more first.
WW
On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:09 AM, donkelly wrote:

> The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or how it happened.
>
> I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did it have the  
> normal double back up systems. Seems a tripple failure would be a  
> very long shot, a million to one chance jumps to mind.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list  
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling  
> moratorium invests in oil industry
>
> At the very minimum, the EPA or appropriate agency should be  
> reviewing the Blow Out Preventer documentation and testing for all  
> proposed drilling.
>
> They should also start taking testimony on the necessity of relief  
> wells for all deep water wells.  In the interim, those that meet  
> typical international standards may proceed, those that wish to  
> rely upon the lighter current standard may wait.
>
> David
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmmmm, well my thoughts about a conflict of interest in this case  
>> seem to have had some merit.
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 08:35:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:35:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not catastrophic
enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole gulf oil
production industry.

Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration? 

I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100% shutdown while
everything else is operating safely?

I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on the reliable
BOP system.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Walt Wentz
Date: 06/23/10 07:11:25
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
moratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
A pity the failed BOP is so massive and inaccessible, so it will
probably never be examined firsthand-- probably a good thing for BP,
Halliburton et al.  But, as Katie has pointed out, do we the people
hove enough unity and indignation yet to overcome the all-pervasive
influence of Big Oil, and enact strict limits and multiple safeguards
on future drilling?
Probably not.  We'll have to suffer considerably more first.
WW
On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:09 AM, donkelly wrote:
 
> The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or how it happened.
>
> I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did it have the
> normal double back up systems. Seems a tripple failure would be a
> very long shot, a million to one chance jumps to mind.
>
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
> moratorium invests in oil industry
>
> At the very minimum, the EPA or appropriate agency should be
> reviewing the Blow Out Preventer documentation and testing for all
> proposed drilling.
>
> They should also start taking testimony on the necessity of relief
> wells for all deep water wells.  In the interim, those that meet
> typical international standards may proceed, those that wish to
> rely upon the lighter current standard may wait.
>
> David
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmmmm, well my thoughts about a conflict of interest in this case
>> seem to have had some merit.
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 08:54:55 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:54:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	TeaPartiers'Beliefs?
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
	<013401cb1252$806e6d90$814b48b0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C222E45.00000C.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

 Don't know about the first link Jeff. If these complainers are members at
all, they are part of the fringe.

Group #2, Tea Party Patriots do the heavy lifting, attend the parades, and
write the letters and make the phone calls, and force politicians to take
notice.

Then there is another group, a unsubstantiated rumor, that was started
solely to discredit the Tea Party.

Then remember that oft said by the Tea Parties, we are a grass roots
movement. We are not an organization.

So it seems OK with them if there are ten groups, better yet, a thousand
groups. Just don't need the wingnuts who only want to make the movement look
bad.

Thank you Jeff, and good day all.

Don

PS: Below deals with the Peloso/Reid efforts to shut down grass roots
movements. Is she afraid of something?


Useful links: News
 
 Http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38500.HTML
 
http://www.redstate
com/erick/2010/06/14/yet-again-the-nra-sells-out-to-democrats/
 
Disclose Act
 
DISCLOSE Act Seeks to Blunt Impacts of Citizens United

 



 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/22/2010 2:33:24 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate TeaPartiers
Beliefs?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Thank you Adam and Jeff. Adam makes a good point that I
> have suggested before, visit the Tea Party web site to
> see what they are about.
 
 
The problem is the movement is so factioned it's extremely difficult to know
which site is the official site.
 
Is it this one with all of the nonsense news items that aren't actually
true:
http://teaparty.org/
 
Is it this site that doesn't have any official statement on positions (other
than a very brief, no-solutions mission statement), but claims to be the
official home of the Tea Party?
http://teapartypatriots.com/
 
Or is it this GOP-funded group that totes Sarah Palin and other z-list
political celebrities around to speak all over the country?
http://www.teapartyexpress.org/home
 
Or is it the National Tea Party Federation?
http://nationalteapartyfederation.com/
 
Or, perhaps the talking-out-both-sides-of-their-face Tea Party Nation that
says they believe in free speech, but regularly censors members' posts on
their website.
http://www.teapartynation.com/
 
> Jeff below has summarized a few things they believe
> in, but also summarized a few things only supported
> by the fringe of the Tea Party.
 
First, I didn't summarize anything.  This was from an article by Newsweek.
 
Second, the items listed are the ones that bubbled up to the top through
word analysis.  So, perhaps some of the things you believe are fringe Tea
Party issues are actually more central than you'd originally thought.
 
Interestingly, I found another study done a few months ago now that looked
at the people that generally make up the Tea Party movement.
 
http://patchworknation.csmonitor.com/csmstaff/2010/0317/a-tea-party-census-w
here-members-live-and-why-thats-important/
 
> Their mission is: A community committed to standing
> together, shoulder to shoulder, to protect our country
> and the Constitution upon which we were founded!
 
To be frank, that mission statement doesn't separate the members of the Tea
Party movement from any other American.  That mission statement doesn't do
anything to identify what actual position on issues that the Tea Party
takes, the problems as they see them, and the solutions as they see them.
 
> I don't know how they know, but various comments about
> the Tea Party, pro and con, spill out over the Internet
> and written media.
 
You just identified *exactly* how they know.
 
> [...] One claim is that the Tea Party has about 25 million
> overt supporters, with another 100 million drop in and
> visit nominal supporters.
 
I couldn't find anything that would hazard a guess about the number of overt
or nominal supporters.  Where are you getting your numbers from?
 
> By the way, the Coffee Party was formed to slow down the
> landslide support of the Tea Party, [...]
 
It wasn't formed to slow down the landslide support of the Tea Party.  It
was formed as an alternative for those that didn't want to get involved with
something that involved yelling the loudest to be heard, throwing temper
tantrums, and general incivility and obstructionism.
 
> [...] and while their mission statement is, "Support
> whatever the president wants to do", [...]
 
That's nonsense.  You didn't even bother to read their mission statement,
did you?
 
"The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans
  who want to see cooperation in government. We
  recognize that the federal government is not the
  enemy of the people, but the expression of our
  collective will, and that we must participate in
  the democratic process in order to address the
  challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and
  grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who
  work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable
  those who obstruct them."
 
http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/content/about-us
 
> [...] it seems to me that some of their fringe group
> should actually belong to the Tea Party.
 
As they welcome members of the Tea Party movement, that's not surprising.
Those members that you'd label as "their fringe group" likely *are* members
of the Tea Party movement.
 
> So as Jeff suggested, it is hard to get a handle on
> where the Tea Party is going today, what they will
> support today.
 
It is precisely that difficulty in getting a handle on the Tea Party
movement that makes it dangerous to vote for any candidate that's
endorsed/backed by them.
 
What I *can* get a handle on gives me great cause for concern.
 
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/what-tea-party-backers-wan
t/
 
> I have attached a list of subjects (no details) they
> have thrown in over the last few days. It is long and
> few will read it, but if you do read it, the rage of
> the voters will show through, and make clearer why
> their iconic logo is in part based on the angry
> retiree yelling and shaking his finger in the face
> of Specter last August.
 
The rage I found in the attachment is almost entirely misplaced.  It's aimed
at things that aren't even true.  There's so much energy put into made up
causes, made up issues, and made up stories.  It's sad really.  If half that
energy was put into things of substance and for a positive good, so much
could be accomplished.  Instead it's wasted on spewing poisonous invective
over anyone unlucky enough to stumble upon it.
 
> People are angry, and every time Obama over reaches, the
> democrats lose more votes.
 
The votes affected by the Tea Party don't yet amount to much though --
certainly nothing like the hype the Tea Party would like you to believe.
 
> And that is the way it will go until the president
> awakens from his nap.
 
Funny, I see a president that has been going almost non-stop since he was
inaugurated.  Perhaps we aren't talking about the same guy.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 09:49:56 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:49:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	TeaPartiers'Beliefs?
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
	<013401cb1252$806e6d90$814b48b0$@com>
	<4C222E45.00000C.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C223B2C.000019.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

You guessed right Jeff, PORKULUS 11 was passed in January, just short of 900
billion dollars it seems.

Now in the face of failure, including the loss of another 3,000 jobs after
the Porkulus 11 passed, they seem intent on passing another Porkulus bill,
disguised as a stealth program. 
 
400 million to terrorists?

Slated for Abbas, but how does one keep terrorists organization out of that
money tree?

Building what? Building in Israel, including Palestinian areas, seems to be
proceeding nicely. Build what?

Israel lets trucks pass daily into Gaza. There is no shortage of medicine,
food, clothing, blankets, etc. In Gaza. So build what?

How about 400 million dollars to embarrass Israel for refusing to take
orders from Obama? 

How about 400 million dollars to break Israel's blockade of war materials
entering Gaza?

400 million dollars for what? To build what? To build what infra-structure?

How many schools can one build with 400 million dollars? Think about that.

And what are they going to teach in those Islamic schools? Think about that.

All legitimate concerns I think. All risk factors I think.

All anti-Israel politics I think.

Don
-------Original Message-------
 
From: donkelly
Date: 6/23/2010 8:54:55 AM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate TeaPartiers
Beliefs?
 
 Don't know about the first link Jeff. If these complainers are members at
all, they are part of the fringe.
 
Group #2, Tea Party Patriots do the heavy lifting, attend the parades, and
write the letters and make the phone calls, and force politicians to take
notice.
 
Then there is another group, a unsubstantiated rumor, that was started
solely to discredit the Tea Party.
 
Then remember that oft said by the Tea Parties, we are a grass roots
movement. We are not an organization.
 
So it seems OK with them if there are ten groups, better yet, a thousand
groups. Just don't need the wingnuts who only want to make the movement look
bad.
 
Thank you Jeff, and good day all.
 
Don
 
PS: Below deals with the Peloso/Reid efforts to shut down grass roots
movements. Is she afraid of something?
 
 
Useful links: News 
 
 Http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38500.HTML
 
http://www.redstate
com/erick/2010/06/14/yet-again-the-nra-sells-out-to-democrats/
 
Disclose Act
 
DISCLOSE Act Seeks to Blunt Impacts of Citizens United

 



 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/22/2010 2:33:24 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate TeaPartiers
Beliefs?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> Thank you Adam and Jeff. Adam makes a good point that I
> have suggested before, visit the Tea Party web site to
> see what they are about.
 
 
The problem is the movement is so factioned it's extremely difficult to know
which site is the official site.
 
Is it this one with all of the nonsense news items that aren't actually
true:
http://teaparty.org/
 
Is it this site that doesn't have any official statement on positions (other
than a very brief, no-solutions mission statement), but claims to be the
official home of the Tea Party?
http://teapartypatriots.com/
 
Or is it this GOP-funded group that totes Sarah Palin and other z-list
political celebrities around to speak all over the country?
http://www.teapartyexpress.org/home
 
Or is it the National Tea Party Federation?
http://nationalteapartyfederation.com/
 
Or, perhaps the talking-out-both-sides-of-their-face Tea Party Nation that
says they believe in free speech, but regularly censors members' posts on
their website.
http://www.teapartynation.com/
 
> Jeff below has summarized a few things they believe
> in, but also summarized a few things only supported
> by the fringe of the Tea Party.
 
First, I didn't summarize anything.  This was from an article by Newsweek.
 
Second, the items listed are the ones that bubbled up to the top through
word analysis.  So, perhaps some of the things you believe are fringe Tea
Party issues are actually more central than you'd originally thought.
 
Interestingly, I found another study done a few months ago now that looked
at the people that generally make up the Tea Party movement.
 
http://patchworknation.csmonitor.com/csmstaff/2010/0317/a-tea-party-census-w
here-members-live-and-why-thats-important/
 
> Their mission is: A community committed to standing
> together, shoulder to shoulder, to protect our country
> and the Constitution upon which we were founded!
 
To be frank, that mission statement doesn't separate the members of the Tea
Party movement from any other American.  That mission statement doesn't do
anything to identify what actual position on issues that the Tea Party
takes, the problems as they see them, and the solutions as they see them.
 
> I don't know how they know, but various comments about
> the Tea Party, pro and con, spill out over the Internet
> and written media.
 
You just identified *exactly* how they know.
 
> [...] One claim is that the Tea Party has about 25 million
> overt supporters, with another 100 million drop in and
> visit nominal supporters.
 
I couldn't find anything that would hazard a guess about the number of overt
or nominal supporters.  Where are you getting your numbers from?
 
> By the way, the Coffee Party was formed to slow down the
> landslide support of the Tea Party, [...]
 
It wasn't formed to slow down the landslide support of the Tea Party.  It
was formed as an alternative for those that didn't want to get involved with
something that involved yelling the loudest to be heard, throwing temper
tantrums, and general incivility and obstructionism.
 
> [...] and while their mission statement is, "Support
> whatever the president wants to do", [...]
 
That's nonsense.  You didn't even bother to read their mission statement,
did you?
 
"The Coffee Party Movement gives voice to Americans
  who want to see cooperation in government. We
  recognize that the federal government is not the
  enemy of the people, but the expression of our
  collective will, and that we must participate in
  the democratic process in order to address the
  challenges that we face as Americans. As voters and
  grassroots volunteers, we will support leaders who
  work toward positive solutions, and hold accountable
  those who obstruct them."
 
http://www.coffeepartyusa.com/content/about-us
 
> [...] it seems to me that some of their fringe group
> should actually belong to the Tea Party.
 
As they welcome members of the Tea Party movement, that's not surprising.
Those members that you'd label as "their fringe group" likely *are* members
of the Tea Party movement.
 
> So as Jeff suggested, it is hard to get a handle on
> where the Tea Party is going today, what they will
> support today.
 
It is precisely that difficulty in getting a handle on the Tea Party
movement that makes it dangerous to vote for any candidate that's
endorsed/backed by them.
 
What I *can* get a handle on gives me great cause for concern.
 
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/what-tea-party-backers-wan
t/
 
> I have attached a list of subjects (no details) they
> have thrown in over the last few days. It is long and
> few will read it, but if you do read it, the rage of
> the voters will show through, and make clearer why
> their iconic logo is in part based on the angry
> retiree yelling and shaking his finger in the face
> of Specter last August.
 
The rage I found in the attachment is almost entirely misplaced.  It's aimed
at things that aren't even true.  There's so much energy put into made up
causes, made up issues, and made up stories.  It's sad really.  If half that
energy was put into things of substance and for a positive good, so much
could be accomplished.  Instead it's wasted on spewing poisonous invective
over anyone unlucky enough to stumble upon it.
 
> People are angry, and every time Obama over reaches, the
> democrats lose more votes.
 
The votes affected by the Tea Party don't yet amount to much though --
certainly nothing like the hype the Tea Party would like you to believe.
 
> And that is the way it will go until the president
> awakens from his nap.
 
Funny, I see a president that has been going almost non-stop since he was
inaugurated.  Perhaps we aren't talking about the same guy.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
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From fgumc at teleport.com  Wed Jun 23 10:02:01 2010
From: fgumc at teleport.com (FGUMC)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:02:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Questioning Capital Punishment: an adult Sunday School
	class
Message-ID: <C026CC33CCED4CFA8CBD8CD17D79FB15@MAINOFFICE>

Forest Grove United Methodist Church invites the community to an adult
Sunday School class on capital punishment, using a video series from Sister
Helen Prejean.

 

The class will meet June 27 through July 18, Sunday mornings in the church
library at 1726 Cedar Street in Forest Grove, two blocks south of Pacific
University campus.  The June 27 class begins 8:45 am; the July classes begin
8:30 am.  We'd be glad to see you there.

 


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 10:09:00 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:09:00 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Hawaii has no birth record?.
Message-ID: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo3Aj2eqmS8&feature=player_embedded
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 10:27:28 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:27:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A lone Marine holds salute for hours
References: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C2243FB.000027.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

A very emotional video. A roaring tribute to every vet who went before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gfnmDGk0KM&feature=related


Don
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From redhead854 at msn.com  Wed Jun 23 10:40:11 2010
From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog on springhill rd
Message-ID: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>


Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking  
things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I  
couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.   
Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 11:01:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:01:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate
	TeaPartiers'Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C222E45.00000C.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
	<013401cb1252$806e6d90$814b48b0$@com>
	<4C222E45.00000C.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <029101cb12fe$2d566160$88032420$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Don't know about the first link Jeff. If these complainers
> are members at all, they are part of the fringe.

How is the average person looking to get involved supposed to know that
though?

> Group #2, Tea Party Patriots do the heavy lifting, attend
> the parades, and write the letters and make the phone
> calls, and force politicians to take notice.

So then this isn't the Tea Party Express, the group putting all the money
behind media campaigns for certain, mostly GOP, politicians?

> Then remember that oft said by the Tea Parties, we are a
> grass roots movement. We are not an organization.
> 
> So it seems OK with them if there are ten groups, better
> yet, a thousand groups. Just don't need the wingnuts who
> only want to make the movement look bad.

Grassroots seems to be a good way to get a movement started, but it doesn't
seem to be a good way to make a movement seem stable and unified in the
longrun.  At some point someone will need to step forward and mold the
movement into a more cohesive unit in order to actually get things
accomplished.  If no one will do that, then I think it will be dismissed as
a bunch of disorganized, uncivilized rabble-rousers that flex their muscles
once in a while but don't really have much in the way of solutions to add to
the issues.

> PS: Below deals with the Peloso/Reid efforts to shut
> down grass roots movements. Is she afraid of something?

Is Pelosi or Reid the author of the Disclose Act?

Nope, the bill's chief author is Van Hollen.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h5175/show

The disclose act doesn't shut down grass movements at all, in any way.  What
it does is counters the recent Supreme Court decision giving personhood to
corporations and requiring funding disclosure on federal elections.

Considering this legislation seeks to level the playing field and take away
the preferential treatment for corporations vs citizens, I'd think you'd be
in favor of it.  What is your issue with it anyway?

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 11:01:57 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:01:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>
	<1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <029401cb12fe$2eb2bd10$8c183730$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or
> how it happened.

That's not really the reality.  Much is actually known about how and why it happened.  Most of what's left is determining who is at fault (the most?).

 
> I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did
> it have the normal double backup systems. Seems a
> tripple failure would be a very long shot, a million
> to one chance jumps to mind.

It appears to have had the normal backup systems.

Coincidentally, I found the following blog post about it this morning.

http://gizmodo.com/5569063/how-bps-deepwater-horizon-failsafe-failed

Jeff




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 11:32:05 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:32:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02a001cb1302$62a95d00$27fc1700$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were
> not catastrophic enough, imagine the total catastrophe
> of shutting down the whole gulf oil production industry.

No, that's *not* what he did.  You're mischaracterizing what took place.
What happened was Obama put a 6-month moratorium on deep-water drilling.

"Salazar said the moratorium -- which does not apply to
 existing production operations -- will give officials
 time to implement safety requirements and allow a
 presidential commission to conduct its investigation.

 'Deepwater production from the Gulf of Mexico will
  continue subject to close oversight and safety
  requirements, but deepwater drilling operations must
  safely come to a halt,' Salazar said in a statement
 issued by the department Sunday."

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/05/30/US-announces-drilling-moratorium-d
etails/UPI-51581275270060/

> Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration?

Yes, I supposed that's one of the issues he took into consideration along
with his stock portfolio.

> I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push
> a 100% shutdown while everything else is operating
> safely?

Rubbish (see above).

> I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut
> corners on the reliable BOP system.

Their safety record, internal memos and emails, and things being discovered
in crew interviews suggests exactly the opposite, both in their reliability
and in BP's desire to cut corners.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10591505

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2010/05/27/oil-spill-answe
rs-why-the-blowout-protector-failed.html?from=rss

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 12:02:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Hawaii has no birth record?.
In-Reply-To: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02b601cb1306$97879dd0$c696d970$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo3Aj2eqmS8

Adams is full of it.  He either believes the ridiculous claims he's making
or he's outright lying.  He didn't have the access he claims.  He makes
claims using words like "everyone in the government knows it", despite
numerous in the government already stating he does have a long form and was
born there.

Absolute nonsense -- again.

You were doing so well with keeping the Obamaphobic birther nonsense off
this list.  I urge you to return to that practice as I don't think anyone
here wants to waste their time with it.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 12:02:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Israel, Palestine,
 and US aid commitments (was: Why Doesn't the Media Interrogate Tea
 Partiers'Beliefs?)
In-Reply-To: <4C223B2C.000019.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<4C2107CB.000011.04004@DON-B2514E06367>
	<013401cb1252$806e6d90$814b48b0$@com>
	<4C222E45.00000C.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C223B2C.000019.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02b901cb1306$98ef1d10$cacd5730$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> You guessed right Jeff, PORKULUS 11 was passed in January,
> just short of 900 billion dollars it seems.

Why are we just now talking about this as if it's something new?

> Now in the face of failure, including the loss of another
> 3,000 jobs after the Porkulus 11 passed, [...]

A nonsense bit of data when you pan out and look at the bigger picture.
Here, in color, is illustrated the effects on the job market.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/04/news/economy/jobs_may/index.htm

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/06/22/steele-bush-created-jobs/

> [...] they seem intent on passing another Porkulus bill,
> disguised as a stealth program.

Ah yes, the good 'ol cloak & dagger politics going on there.  It's being
done in secret, late at night, in the janitor's closet where cameras and
audio recording devices won't go.

Come on, it's nothing like that.

> 400 million to terrorists?
> 
> Slated for Abbas, but how does one keep terrorists
> organization out of that money tree?

Abbas?  No, it's not for Abbas.  It's for Palestine.

> Building what? Building in Israel, including
> Palestinian areas, seems to be proceeding nicely.
> Build what?

Already answered.

> Israel lets trucks pass daily into Gaza. There is no
> shortage of medicine, food, clothing, blankets, etc.
> In Gaza. So build what?

Israel doesn't let much through into Gaza -- especially building supplies.
Among some of the more ridiculous items that until recently weren't allowed
through are soda, juice, jams, spices, shaving cream, chips, cookies, and
sweets.  As of June 9, however, they've started allowing those items
through.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127588455&ft=1&f=1001

For three years Israel has blocked nearly everything into Gaza except the
most basic humanitarian supplies.  Finally, after much pressure from the
international community, they're changing their list of banned goods and
allowing most anything except weapons and other items deemed to have a
military use through.  Still, Gaza lives under constant siege by Israel.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127969785

> How about 400 million dollars to embarrass Israel for
> refusing to take orders from Obama?

Oh please.

> How about 400 million dollars to break Israel's blockade
> of war materials entering Gaza?

How about $400 million to go in and repair the war-torn country that hasn't
been allowed to have building supplies brought in (even cement) to rebuild
their homes, roads, etc.?

> 400 million dollars for what? To build what? To build what
> infra-structure?

Do you mean to come off as being completely clueless to the situation in
Gaza?

> How many schools can one build with 400 million
> dollars? Think about that.

It's not just for schools and you know it.

"400 million dollars in projects to increase access
 for clean drinking water, create jobs, build schools,
 expand the availability of affordable housing, and
 address critical health and infrastructure needs --
 not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank."

http://www1.voanews.com/policy/editorials/More-Aid-For-West-Bank-Gaza-968785
99.html

When you take the breadth and depth of proposed projects, it's quick to see
that 400 million dollars probably won't go very far towards the aim of those
projects.

> And what are they going to teach in those Islamic
> schools? Think about that.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say they'll probably teach Arabic and the
Quran.  What, precisely, is the issue with that?

> All legitimate concerns I think. All risk factors
> I think.

When viewed through a lens of hate and fear, perhaps they're legitimate
concerns and risks.

> All anti-Israel politics I think.

If that was the case, why is Israel getting nearly 7 times that amount in
aid from us?

US aid to Israel in fiscal year 2010 at $2.775b
http://www.uruknet.info/?new=61317

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 12:05:46 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:05:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A lone Marine holds salute for hours
In-Reply-To: <4C2243FB.000027.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2243FB.000027.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02ba01cb1307$1746b600$45d42200$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> A very emotional video. A roaring tribute to every vet
> who went before.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gfnmDGk0KM&feature=related

And a video where he talks about why he did it and why he's been doing
things like this for the past 8 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=62br6dtd6yQ&feature=watch_response

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 12:13:37 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:13:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
References: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>
	<1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<029401cb12fe$2eb2bd10$8c183730$@com>
Message-ID: <4C225CE1.000034.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

Finding out whom is at fault does not seal the casing and stop the oil from
spewing.

Granted the writer was not unbiased in his phrasing, and is no expert either


The article indicates only one backup system, at least that is the way I see
it.

Perhaps the oil still spews because of the failure to deploy a second backup
system I am most familiar with.

Of course also granted is that my experience was with wells on tundra,
uphole extraction of oil and downhole injection of purified water, where
escaping natural gas which sets on top of the oil, was an add on risk.

Five miles under water is a different matter; one cannot just walk up and
fix the problem, so all the more important to have redundant safety systems.
I am unfamiliar with the nitrogen cement injection system, except to observe
that nitrogen alone is very volatile.

But in all it supports your comment in support of better safety systems.

Thank you

Don  
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/23/2010 11:02:35 AM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
moratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or
> how it happened.
 
That's not really the reality.  Much is actually known about how and why it
happened.  Most of what's left is determining who is at fault (the most?).
 
 
> I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did
> it have the normal double backup systems. Seems a
> tripple failure would be a very long shot, a million
> to one chance jumps to mind.
 
It appears to have had the normal backup systems.
 
Coincidentally, I found the following blog post about it this morning.
 
http://gizmodo.com/5569063/how-bps-deepwater-horizon-failsafe-failed
 
Jeff
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 12:32:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:32:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C225CE1.000034.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>
	<1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<029401cb12fe$2eb2bd10$8c183730$@com>
	<4C225CE1.000034.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02c401cb130a$c8cf2350$5a6d69f0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> Finding out whom is at fault does not seal the casing and
> stop the oil from spewing.

No, it certainly doesn't.  However, determining who is at fault and why
hopefully makes us more able to construct safety measures and regulations
that will prevent (or at least substantially reduce) this sort of accident
in the future.

> Granted the writer was not unbiased in his phrasing,
> and is no expert either.

No, but he is working from experts in the field.

> The article indicates only one backup system, at least
> that is the way I see it.

Partially true, yes.  The BOP is supposed to have redundant systems, but
this particular one still failed, probably in large part due to other
numerous negligent safety issues that cropped up prior to the explosion --
missing/dead batteries, a leak in a crucial hydraulic system, improperly
documented modifications made to key safety apparatus, and, the worst, the
BOP was likely not large enough for the pipe being used.

http://climateprogress.org/2010/05/12/stupak-oil-wells-blowout-preventer/

Additionally, it's standard procedure to have at least one, if not two,
relief wells ready and waiting, another oversight/allowance/exception that
made this disaster far worse than it needed to be.

> But in all it supports your comment in support of
> better safety systems.

Yes, that and far better regulation.  No more self-certification.  No more
being in bed with the government agency responsible for overseeing your
operations.  No more of the public allowing a greedy private corporation to
put the ecosystem and the average citizens' health and livelihood at risk.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 12:43:19 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:43:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Christians Jailed
Message-ID: <4C2263CE.00003D.00384@DON-B2514E06367>

http://www.westernjournalism
com/america-2010-christians-hauled-to-jail-for-preaching-jesus/
 
Police enforce Sharia Law (functionally) in Dearborn, Michigan.

Do you have freedom of speech in Dearborn only if you are Muslim?

Don 
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 13:28:17 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:28:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Christians Jailed
In-Reply-To: <4C2263CE.00003D.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C2263CE.00003D.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <02d601cb1312$9daf1fb0$d90d5f10$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Police enforce Sharia Law (functionally) in
> Dearborn, Michigan.
> 
> Do you have freedom of speech in Dearborn only
> if you are Muslim?

Leave it to WND and/or Western Journalism to skew the details.

This happened at the Arab International Festival.  It involved four
individuals that showed up with the idea of converting Muslims attending the
festival.  They were arrested for disorderly conduct.

It seems this isn't the first time this group, Qureshi specifically, has
been in the middle of controversy surrounding this festival.

The questions that immediately come up for me are:

1) Why can't members of other faiths leave those alone
   that are attending this festival?

2) Does anyone showing up to convert attendees really
   think that anyone attending will be interested in
   what they have to say/offer?  Or, are they willing
   to accept that they're really there to be nothing
   more than a nuisance?

3) What would the reaction be if a group of atheists,
   Buddhists, Muslims, or other [non-]belief group were
   to show up at a Christian festival trying to 
   convert attendees?

Jeff



From kb-ent at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 13:51:08 2010
From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:51:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drilling	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>

*I have been on Grovenet for a few years, but I am not heard from here 
very much because I don't post unless I have something to say.

Don, you gave me a glimmer of hope when you posted your stuff about 
history. I found it very interesting. I am disappointed that you can't 
seem to get past your hate fest though. I am pissed off at the amount of 
time I have spent reading and researching what amounts to a load of 
crap. Don't we have enough problems? (economy, war, jobs, environment, 
etc.) Do we really need to invent more by making the ones we have more 
difficult with lies and sabotage? There is too much here on Grovenet for 
too long that resembles the situation in the Gulf (a whole lot of 
pollution that someone else has to clean up). Example below.*

donkelly wrote:
> As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not catastrophic
> enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole gulf oil
> production industry.
>
>   
**By whole do you mean all? Check again...**

> **
> Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration? 
>
>   
**I would suspect that his investments were also considered...**

>
> I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100% shutdown while
> everything else is operating safely?
>
>   
*Give us a break. It's just disgusting and immature to think that. 
Anybody in that position would have considered it even if we disagree 
with their results and thoughts...*
>
> I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on the reliable
> BOP system.
>
>   
*Right... Because all large corporations always put safety, their 
employees, and the public welfare above profits all the time, especially BP.

Just face it, the President is not all powerful, he could not do 
everything to his liking just like you or I could not if we were the 
President. But, if we honestly work together we can make a bad situation 
better for most if not all.

I am sorry for the rambling rant, but I have wasted too much of my time 
wading through a pile of crap...
Keith

P.S. I am truly sorry Don, but I won't be paying any attention to your 
posts anymore.
*
>
> Don 
>   

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 15:32:43 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:32:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
 moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>

Right on Keith!

It's what I've been saying all along. Don needs to get off his soap box, put
on his historian hat, and bag the hate and rumor mongering. He could lend a
great service to the list if he'd only stop proselytizing and rabble
rousing. I think many of the list tolerate him, not so much for what he
contributes, but for the rebuttals we get from David and Jeff. Jeff should
consider becoming an official debunker. He's good. He's through. He's
honest. And he doesn't say anything he can't back up with facts. As a
result, we learn a lot. But at what cost?

Notice that the dialogue on the list has been reduced to a mere handful of
people (and the number gets fewer all the time). It's like tuning in to the
local news channel and seeing the same faces everyday. I'd like to see more
people participating, but that won't happen until the list begins to serve
more than controversy and rumor mongering. No matter how often you tell him
to stop, Don keeps coming back. The Obama birther controversy is a prime
example. Need I say more!?

To Don: Get a life dude, I'm not the only one getting tired of your
incessant dival. Drop the political stuff and give us something we can all
sink out teeth into. A man who professes to have 10,000 web pages on the net
ought to have more original material to talk. And one proclaiming to be so
web savvy ought to know better than to foul up the airways with
unsubstantiated garbage. Show us what you're made of Don. Is yours an
obsession for history, or fantasy?

It's my opinion that there are many on the list whose patience, like yours
Keith, is growing thin. In an earlier post a couple of weeks ago, when I was
addressing the same issue, I asked the list for some sign either of support
or opposition to what I was proposing (eg toning down don's rhetoric), and
you know what, it was as if my post had never been read by anyone. To be
honest, I felt somewhat betrayed by my friends by the silence. I spoke out
and no one (not one) even bothered to make a direct comment to the real
issue of don's manipulation of the list. I was ignored. It was almost as if
*I* was the spoiler. I was disheartened, surely, but not defeated. I
continue to advocate for a more diverse forum. I want to see more people
join in. Cow-towing to Don DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT invite others to
participate. Quite the opposite. If others think I'm wrong (or right) then
*please* acknowledge. Participate. If you enjoy endless reruns on TV, then
you'll likely not want to change things. If you want a forum for and by ALL
the people of this list, then you'll join me in condemning the mindless,
unsubstantiated, propaganda that spews unending from don. Like the uncapped
oil leak in the Gulf, don is polluting the waters of Grovenet's inlet sea.
I, like the people in the Gulf, am worried that the worst is yet to come if
we don't put a stop to it now. Let's put a cap on don now. What do the rest
of you think?

jimz


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net> wrote:

> *I have been on Grovenet for a few years, but I am not heard from here
> very much because I don't post unless I have something to say.
>
> Don, you gave me a glimmer of hope when you posted your stuff about
> history. I found it very interesting. I am disappointed that you can't
> seem to get past your hate fest though. I am pissed off at the amount of
> time I have spent reading and researching what amounts to a load of
> crap. Don't we have enough problems? (economy, war, jobs, environment,
> etc.) Do we really need to invent more by making the ones we have more
> difficult with lies and sabotage? There is too much here on Grovenet for
> too long that resembles the situation in the Gulf (a whole lot of
> pollution that someone else has to clean up). Example below.*
>
> donkelly wrote:
> > As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not catastrophic
> > enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole gulf oil
> > production industry.
> >
> >
> **By whole do you mean all? Check again...**
>
> > **
> > Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration?
> >
> >
> **I would suspect that his investments were also considered...**
>
> >
> > I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100% shutdown while
> > everything else is operating safely?
> >
> >
> *Give us a break. It's just disgusting and immature to think that.
> Anybody in that position would have considered it even if we disagree
> with their results and thoughts...*
> >
> > I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on the
> reliable
> > BOP system.
> >
> >
> *Right... Because all large corporations always put safety, their
> employees, and the public welfare above profits all the time, especially
> BP.
>
> Just face it, the President is not all powerful, he could not do
> everything to his liking just like you or I could not if we were the
> President. But, if we honestly work together we can make a bad situation
> better for most if not all.
>
> I am sorry for the rambling rant, but I have wasted too much of my time
> wading through a pile of crap...
> Keith
>
> P.S. I am truly sorry Don, but I won't be paying any attention to your
> posts anymore.
> *
> >
> > Don
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 15:57:27 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:57:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C225CE1.000034.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4D3A9EB9-29A8-44D4-8DBF-2AA57DE2ADDD@verizon.net>
	<1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<029401cb12fe$2eb2bd10$8c183730$@com>
	<4C225CE1.000034.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <E4A93E23-12DB-4C70-AA3A-6F32ED0684EE@verizon.net>



On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:13 PM, donkelly wrote:

>
>
> I am unfamiliar with the nitrogen cement injection system, except  
> to observe
> that nitrogen alone is very volatile.
>
>
Just so you don't scare children who go to school and learn that the  
air they breathe is approx 80% nitrogen, this has to be challenged.

Nitrogen as a single atom (rare) is reactive and it is reactive in  
some compounds, but when nitrogen is in the very common form of N2 as  
a gas, it is fairly non reactive and in reality (as in not the world  
Don lives in) N2 is sometimes used as an inert gas to keep reactions  
from happening. That is inert, as in non reactive.

To repeat, nitrogen alone is not volatile.

So, take what ever Don says and know that the opposite is true.

If nitrogen alone was volatile our air (80% N2 gas) would be reacting  
all the time.  So look around you, breathe in 80% nitrogen, observe  
how it does NoT react in your lungs. Observe how it does not react as  
it floats your balloons or inflates your tires, or swirls around the  
candles on your birthday cake. Use your everyday experience and life  
long friendship with breathing to help you pick out fact from fantasy.

Katie

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reactive_is_nitrogen


From kb-ent at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 19:02:29 2010
From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:02:29 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
 moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C22BCB5.1090804@comcast.net>

Thanks Jim, I am sorry I didn't back you up earlier. I probably just did 
a quick scan and dump. I do appreciate what all of you have been doing 
to counter Don's bile, I can only imagine how bitter and hateful I would 
become if that was my steady diet. I saw his post today and was pissed! 
How dare you waste more of my time. I am more than willing to listen to 
what others want to share, but don't make me do all the work to check 
out your post only to find out it is a load of crap. Check your own 
facts, and use some credible sources (multiple, provable, reliable). Not 
just opinions from someone with an agenda. FACTS please.

(ahem) Thank you all for listening once again. (stepping down from my 
soapbox) The reason I don't post much is because I learn so much more 
listening than flapping my jaw (wiggling my fingers).
Keith

Jim Zaleski wrote:
> Right on Keith!
>
> It's what I've been saying all along. Don needs to get off his soap 
> box, put on his historian hat, and bag the hate and rumor mongering. 
> He could lend a great service to the list if he'd only stop 
> proselytizing and rabble rousing. I think many of the list tolerate 
> him, not so much for what he contributes, but for the rebuttals we get 
> from David and Jeff. Jeff should consider becoming an official 
> debunker. He's good. He's through. He's honest. And he doesn't say 
> anything he can't back up with facts. As a result, we learn a lot. But 
> at what cost?
>
> Notice that the dialogue on the list has been reduced to a mere 
> handful of people (and the number gets fewer all the time). It's like 
> tuning in to the local news channel and seeing the same faces 
> everyday. I'd like to see more people participating, but that won't 
> happen until the list begins to serve more than controversy and rumor 
> mongering. No matter how often you tell him to stop, Don keeps coming 
> back. The Obama birther controversy is a prime example. Need I say more!?
>
> To Don: Get a life dude, I'm not the only one getting tired of your 
> incessant dival. Drop the political stuff and give us something we can 
> all sink out teeth into. A man who professes to have 10,000 web pages 
> on the net ought to have more original material to talk. And one 
> proclaiming to be so web savvy ought to know better than to foul up 
> the airways with unsubstantiated garbage. Show us what you're made of 
> Don. Is yours an obsession for history, or fantasy?
>
> It's my opinion that there are many on the list whose patience, like 
> yours Keith, is growing thin. In an earlier post a couple of weeks 
> ago, when I was addressing the same issue, I asked the list for some 
> sign either of support or opposition to what I was proposing (eg 
> toning down don's rhetoric), and you know what, it was as if my post 
> had never been read by anyone. To be honest, I felt somewhat betrayed 
> by my friends by the silence. I spoke out and no one (not one) even 
> bothered to make a direct comment to the real issue of don's 
> manipulation of the list. I was ignored. It was almost as if *I* was 
> the spoiler. I was disheartened, surely, but not defeated. I continue 
> to advocate for a more diverse forum. I want to see more people join 
> in. Cow-towing to Don DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT invite others to 
> participate. Quite the opposite. If others think I'm wrong (or right) 
> then *please* acknowledge. Participate. If you enjoy endless reruns on 
> TV, then you'll likely not want to change things. If you want a forum 
> for and by ALL the people of this list, then you'll join me in 
> condemning the mindless, unsubstantiated, propaganda that spews 
> unending from don. Like the uncapped oil leak in the Gulf, don is 
> polluting the waters of Grovenet's inlet sea. I, like the people in 
> the Gulf, am worried that the worst is yet to come if we don't put a 
> stop to it now. Let's put a cap on don now. What do the rest of you think?
>
> jimz
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net 
> <mailto:kb-ent at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     *I have been on Grovenet for a few years, but I am not heard from here
>     very much because I don't post unless I have something to say.
>
>     Don, you gave me a glimmer of hope when you posted your stuff about
>     history. I found it very interesting. I am disappointed that you can't
>     seem to get past your hate fest though. I am pissed off at the
>     amount of
>     time I have spent reading and researching what amounts to a load of
>     crap. Don't we have enough problems? (economy, war, jobs, environment,
>     etc.) Do we really need to invent more by making the ones we have more
>     difficult with lies and sabotage? There is too much here on
>     Grovenet for
>     too long that resembles the situation in the Gulf (a whole lot of
>     pollution that someone else has to clean up). Example below.*
>
>     donkelly wrote:
>     > As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not
>     catastrophic
>     > enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole
>     gulf oil
>     > production industry.
>     >
>     >
>     **By whole do you mean all? Check again...**
>
>     > **
>     > Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration?
>     >
>     >
>     **I would suspect that his investments were also considered...**
>
>     >
>     > I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100%
>     shutdown while
>     > everything else is operating safely?
>     >
>     >
>     *Give us a break. It's just disgusting and immature to think that.
>     Anybody in that position would have considered it even if we disagree
>     with their results and thoughts...*
>     >
>     > I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on
>     the reliable
>     > BOP system.
>     >
>     >
>     *Right... Because all large corporations always put safety, their
>     employees, and the public welfare above profits all the time,
>     especially BP.
>
>     Just face it, the President is not all powerful, he could not do
>     everything to his liking just like you or I could not if we were the
>     President. But, if we honestly work together we can make a bad
>     situation
>     better for most if not all.
>
>     I am sorry for the rambling rant, but I have wasted too much of my
>     time
>     wading through a pile of crap...
>     Keith
>
>     P.S. I am truly sorry Don, but I won't be paying any attention to your
>     posts anymore.
>     *
>     >
>     > Don
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     GroveNet mailing list
>     GroveNet at rdrop.com <mailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>
>     http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2958 - Release Date: 06/23/10 04:11:00
>
>   

From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 19:36:15 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:36:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C22BCB5.1090804@comcast.net>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22BCB5.1090804@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <98EE5429CD714584A8E854E5ED9DFA16@JeffVAIO>

Just thought I'd chime in and say YES!   I agree that I'm tired of the 
drivel.  But at least we have David and Jeff who are incredibly patient and 
I enjoy learning from them.  And they often have some very good lnks.

If we had more topics posted by others, perhaps the unpleasant bandwidth 
would be squeezed out.  So folks, lets get some other discussions going.  I 
have one, I'd like to get some feedback on and will start a new thread.

marian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "K. Bingham" <kb-ent at comcast.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 7:02 PM
To: "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling 
moratoriuminvests in oil industry

> Thanks Jim, I am sorry I didn't back you up earlier. I probably just did
> a quick scan and dump. I do appreciate what all of you have been doing
> to counter Don's bile, I can only imagine how bitter and hateful I would
> become if that was my steady diet. I saw his post today and was pissed!
> How dare you waste more of my time. I am more than willing to listen to
> what others want to share, but don't make me do all the work to check
> out your post only to find out it is a load of crap. Check your own
> facts, and use some credible sources (multiple, provable, reliable). Not
> just opinions from someone with an agenda. FACTS please.
>
> (ahem) Thank you all for listening once again. (stepping down from my
> soapbox) The reason I don't post much is because I learn so much more
> listening than flapping my jaw (wiggling my fingers).
> Keith
>
> Jim Zaleski wrote:
>> Right on Keith!
>>
>> It's what I've been saying all along. Don needs to get off his soap
>> box, put on his historian hat, and bag the hate and rumor mongering.
>> He could lend a great service to the list if he'd only stop
>> proselytizing and rabble rousing. I think many of the list tolerate
>> him, not so much for what he contributes, but for the rebuttals we get
>> from David and Jeff. Jeff should consider becoming an official
>> debunker. He's good. He's through. He's honest. And he doesn't say
>> anything he can't back up with facts. As a result, we learn a lot. But
>> at what cost?
>>
>> Notice that the dialogue on the list has been reduced to a mere
>> handful of people (and the number gets fewer all the time). It's like
>> tuning in to the local news channel and seeing the same faces
>> everyday. I'd like to see more people participating, but that won't
>> happen until the list begins to serve more than controversy and rumor
>> mongering. No matter how often you tell him to stop, Don keeps coming
>> back. The Obama birther controversy is a prime example. Need I say more!?
>>
>> To Don: Get a life dude, I'm not the only one getting tired of your
>> incessant dival. Drop the political stuff and give us something we can
>> all sink out teeth into. A man who professes to have 10,000 web pages
>> on the net ought to have more original material to talk. And one
>> proclaiming to be so web savvy ought to know better than to foul up
>> the airways with unsubstantiated garbage. Show us what you're made of
>> Don. Is yours an obsession for history, or fantasy?
>>
>> It's my opinion that there are many on the list whose patience, like
>> yours Keith, is growing thin. In an earlier post a couple of weeks
>> ago, when I was addressing the same issue, I asked the list for some
>> sign either of support or opposition to what I was proposing (eg
>> toning down don's rhetoric), and you know what, it was as if my post
>> had never been read by anyone. To be honest, I felt somewhat betrayed
>> by my friends by the silence. I spoke out and no one (not one) even
>> bothered to make a direct comment to the real issue of don's
>> manipulation of the list. I was ignored. It was almost as if *I* was
>> the spoiler. I was disheartened, surely, but not defeated. I continue
>> to advocate for a more diverse forum. I want to see more people join
>> in. Cow-towing to Don DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT invite others to
>> participate. Quite the opposite. If others think I'm wrong (or right)
>> then *please* acknowledge. Participate. If you enjoy endless reruns on
>> TV, then you'll likely not want to change things. If you want a forum
>> for and by ALL the people of this list, then you'll join me in
>> condemning the mindless, unsubstantiated, propaganda that spews
>> unending from don. Like the uncapped oil leak in the Gulf, don is
>> polluting the waters of Grovenet's inlet sea. I, like the people in
>> the Gulf, am worried that the worst is yet to come if we don't put a
>> stop to it now. Let's put a cap on don now. What do the rest of you 
>> think?
>>
>> jimz
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net
>> <mailto:kb-ent at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     *I have been on Grovenet for a few years, but I am not heard from 
>> here
>>     very much because I don't post unless I have something to say.
>>
>>     Don, you gave me a glimmer of hope when you posted your stuff about
>>     history. I found it very interesting. I am disappointed that you 
>> can't
>>     seem to get past your hate fest though. I am pissed off at the
>>     amount of
>>     time I have spent reading and researching what amounts to a load of
>>     crap. Don't we have enough problems? (economy, war, jobs, 
>> environment,
>>     etc.) Do we really need to invent more by making the ones we have 
>> more
>>     difficult with lies and sabotage? There is too much here on
>>     Grovenet for
>>     too long that resembles the situation in the Gulf (a whole lot of
>>     pollution that someone else has to clean up). Example below.*
>>
>>     donkelly wrote:
>>     > As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not
>>     catastrophic
>>     > enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole
>>     gulf oil
>>     > production industry.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     **By whole do you mean all? Check again...**
>>
>>     > **
>>     > Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration?
>>     >
>>     >
>>     **I would suspect that his investments were also considered...**
>>
>>     >
>>     > I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100%
>>     shutdown while
>>     > everything else is operating safely?
>>     >
>>     >
>>     *Give us a break. It's just disgusting and immature to think that.
>>     Anybody in that position would have considered it even if we disagree
>>     with their results and thoughts...*
>>     >
>>     > I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on
>>     the reliable
>>     > BOP system.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     *Right... Because all large corporations always put safety, their
>>     employees, and the public welfare above profits all the time,
>>     especially BP.
>>
>>     Just face it, the President is not all powerful, he could not do
>>     everything to his liking just like you or I could not if we were the
>>     President. But, if we honestly work together we can make a bad
>>     situation
>>     better for most if not all.
>>
>>     I am sorry for the rambling rant, but I have wasted too much of my
>>     time
>>     wading through a pile of crap...
>>     Keith
>>
>>     P.S. I am truly sorry Don, but I won't be paying any attention to 
>> your
>>     posts anymore.
>>     *
>>     >
>>     > Don
>>     >
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     GroveNet mailing list
>>     GroveNet at rdrop.com <mailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>
>>     http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2958 - Release Date: 06/23/10 
>> 04:11:00
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 19:45:39 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:45:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
Message-ID: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>

I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional feedback.  

The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later every Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which currently starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school until 9:45 on Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for families, but the district has done a terrible job of communicating this to parents.  Some I talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would actually do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard about it".

And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the school must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and families and will probably be the demise of the bond measure.  

What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is most significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.  Does this impact you?

I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters education, but the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is widening the chasm between the community and the district.

Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
Marian

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 20:25:01 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:25:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>

Marian,

I recall your earlier post on this a short time ago, and since I don't have
any kids in the district anymore, I didn't follow the thread. For the sake
of discussion, however, I can offer my opinion based upon having been a
parent and my own awareness of how disruptive such a scheduling anomaly can
be. If this scheduling change has nothing to do with the budget cuts then it
sounds like an arbitrary one made to accommodate some special need the
district may have. Not having any background on the issue or statement from
the school, it's difficult to form an opinion as to it's necessity. From a
parent standpoint, I agree, the disruption can be huge. Every Tom McCall
parent must alter their schedules to accommodate the change, and for some
that may involve considerable effort.

My question would be, is the benefit to the school worth the effort of so
many parents? What exactly is the purpose? Teacher planning? Meeting time?
My wife was an elementary teacher for many years and I know it is a
demanding, time consuming job, so I don't fault them for wanting extra time
to plan and prepare (if that is the reason). I just think something like
this, in that it impacts so many, ought to have been the subject of some
public discussion. While an extra half hour may seem a trifle, it's huge
when it comes to compliance at the family level.

Does anyone out there know the details, so we can all be on the same page?
Obviously, Marian is expressing the type of frustration common with change,
and it is highly likely that she is speaking unofficially for many other
parents as well. I recall this earlier thread had a discussion about what
schools were affected and which schools notified parents of the impending
change. I also recall there was no consistancy in the notification process.
Perhaps if some learned list member could contribute more details Marian
could get some of the answers she seeks. Mike S., you, among others on this
list, are our resident authority on such matters (even tho you aren't
involved as you once were). What's your take on this change, and why wasn't
there a district-wide notice sent out to parents?

Whether this thread becomes an exchange of information or a debate on the
soundness of the district's decision is up to the list. What is important is
that it is a local issue and THIS is where the value of having this forum in
the first place makes all the difference. Local issues. Local values. People
talking to people. Power to the people. Go Grovenet!!!

jimz



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis <oldredwagon at verizon.net>wrote:

> I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional feedback.
>
> The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later every
> Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which currently
> starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school until 9:45 on
> Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for families, but the
> district has done a terrible job of communicating this to parents.  Some I
> talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would actually
> do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard
> about it".
>
> And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the school
> must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and
> reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and families and
> will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
>
> What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is most
> significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.  Does this
> impact you?
>
> I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters education, but
> the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is widening the
> chasm between the community and the district.
>
> Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> Marian
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From chuck at grovenet.net  Wed Jun 23 20:36:58 2010
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:36:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>

Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we 
weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.  Rhonda 
is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both enjoyed the 
sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks for all the well 
wishes. 

Anyways - got hungry and wanted to find a place for Rhonda to rest, and 
get a good meal.  I haven't been downtown in quite some time so we 
walked around looking for a place to get a bite.  Now we have discussed 
Forest Grove's restaurant selection (or lack of) many times.  And while 
I'm sure all of the options we had tonight are very good, we just 
weren't in the mood for Pizza, or Tacos, or BBQ or Pub Food. 

So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE 
surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?  Or was 
it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was WONDERFUL.  Lots of 
options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT service.  Will definitely 
come back again.  What a really nice surprise to discover a hidden 
little gem like this right in your own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  
Hope you do well.

chuck underwood


From admin at ronhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 20:53:23 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:53:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01cb1350$cc001520$64003f60$@com>

As I recall (from a scan of the flier that was sent out by Harvey Clarke) it
was to enable the teachers to get together to plan and for team building. 
If the kids could go to school at the regular time and do a study hall
activity it wouldn't impact the families and it would give the kids a chance
to catch up on that class they have been putting off.;) 
When is the next school board meeting? Hopefully they have some answers or
are willing to listen to the parents perspective.

Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Zaleski
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"

Marian,

I recall your earlier post on this a short time ago, and since I don't have
any kids in the district anymore, I didn't follow the thread. For the sake
of discussion, however, I can offer my opinion based upon having been a
parent and my own awareness of how disruptive such a scheduling anomaly can
be. If this scheduling change has nothing to do with the budget cuts then it
sounds like an arbitrary one made to accommodate some special need the
district may have. Not having any background on the issue or statement from
the school, it's difficult to form an opinion as to it's necessity. From a
parent standpoint, I agree, the disruption can be huge. Every Tom McCall
parent must alter their schedules to accommodate the change, and for some
that may involve considerable effort.

My question would be, is the benefit to the school worth the effort of so
many parents? What exactly is the purpose? Teacher planning? Meeting time?
My wife was an elementary teacher for many years and I know it is a
demanding, time consuming job, so I don't fault them for wanting extra time
to plan and prepare (if that is the reason). I just think something like
this, in that it impacts so many, ought to have been the subject of some
public discussion. While an extra half hour may seem a trifle, it's huge
when it comes to compliance at the family level.

Does anyone out there know the details, so we can all be on the same page?
Obviously, Marian is expressing the type of frustration common with change,
and it is highly likely that she is speaking unofficially for many other
parents as well. I recall this earlier thread had a discussion about what
schools were affected and which schools notified parents of the impending
change. I also recall there was no consistancy in the notification process.
Perhaps if some learned list member could contribute more details Marian
could get some of the answers she seeks. Mike S., you, among others on this
list, are our resident authority on such matters (even tho you aren't
involved as you once were). What's your take on this change, and why wasn't
there a district-wide notice sent out to parents?

Whether this thread becomes an exchange of information or a debate on the
soundness of the district's decision is up to the list. What is important is
that it is a local issue and THIS is where the value of having this forum in
the first place makes all the difference. Local issues. Local values. People
talking to people. Power to the people. Go Grovenet!!!

jimz



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis
<oldredwagon at verizon.net>wrote:

> I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional feedback.
>
> The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later every
> Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which
currently
> starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school until 9:45
on
> Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for families, but
the
> district has done a terrible job of communicating this to parents.  Some I
> talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would
actually
> do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard
> about it".
>
> And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the school
> must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and
> reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and families and
> will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
>
> What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is most
> significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.  Does
this
> impact you?
>
> I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters education,
but
> the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is widening the
> chasm between the community and the district.
>
> Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> Marian




From admin at ronhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 20:57:52 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:57:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <003e01cb1351$6c1bc8b0$44535a10$@com>

Glad to hear Rhonda is doing well.
I believe Signmeisters started out in or near that location before moving
next door to OK Floral. 
Yes, Izgaras is a nice addition to the Forest Grove selection for food.

Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of chuck
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:37 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise

Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we 
weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.  Rhonda 
is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both enjoyed the 
sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks for all the well 
wishes. 

Anyways - got hungry and wanted to find a place for Rhonda to rest, and 
get a good meal.  I haven't been downtown in quite some time so we 
walked around looking for a place to get a bite.  Now we have discussed 
Forest Grove's restaurant selection (or lack of) many times.  And while 
I'm sure all of the options we had tonight are very good, we just 
weren't in the mood for Pizza, or Tacos, or BBQ or Pub Food. 

So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE 
surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?  Or was 
it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was WONDERFUL.  Lots of 
options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT service.  Will definitely 
come back again.  What a really nice surprise to discover a hidden 
little gem like this right in your own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  
Hope you do well.

chuck underwood





From admin at ronhowden.com  Wed Jun 23 21:06:25 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:06:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling
	moratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<B7F8D60B-E9EB-4575-A702-461C8D5DD7D2@teleport.com>
	<4C2229C2.000005.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2273BC.1080005@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimj396n4dLYf047HpQnNy4Gc24ox4wry519CZLX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01cb1352$9dcf36c0$d96da440$@com>

Keith and Jim,
You are not alone in tiring of Don's "flavor of the week ramblings" about
stuff I am not interested in.
I am amazed my "delete" key has not failed due to all the "stuff" that needs
to be disposed of.

Don - Enough already.

Thanks,
Ron H.

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Zaleski
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 3:33 PM
To: kb-ent at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
invests in oil industry

Right on Keith!

It's what I've been saying all along. Don needs to get off his soap box, put
on his historian hat, and bag the hate and rumor mongering. He could lend a
great service to the list if he'd only stop proselytizing and rabble
rousing. I think many of the list tolerate him, not so much for what he
contributes, but for the rebuttals we get from David and Jeff. Jeff should
consider becoming an official debunker. He's good. He's through. He's
honest. And he doesn't say anything he can't back up with facts. As a
result, we learn a lot. But at what cost?

Notice that the dialogue on the list has been reduced to a mere handful of
people (and the number gets fewer all the time). It's like tuning in to the
local news channel and seeing the same faces everyday. I'd like to see more
people participating, but that won't happen until the list begins to serve
more than controversy and rumor mongering. No matter how often you tell him
to stop, Don keeps coming back. The Obama birther controversy is a prime
example. Need I say more!?

To Don: Get a life dude, I'm not the only one getting tired of your
incessant dival. Drop the political stuff and give us something we can all
sink out teeth into. A man who professes to have 10,000 web pages on the net
ought to have more original material to talk. And one proclaiming to be so
web savvy ought to know better than to foul up the airways with
unsubstantiated garbage. Show us what you're made of Don. Is yours an
obsession for history, or fantasy?

It's my opinion that there are many on the list whose patience, like yours
Keith, is growing thin. In an earlier post a couple of weeks ago, when I was
addressing the same issue, I asked the list for some sign either of support
or opposition to what I was proposing (eg toning down don's rhetoric), and
you know what, it was as if my post had never been read by anyone. To be
honest, I felt somewhat betrayed by my friends by the silence. I spoke out
and no one (not one) even bothered to make a direct comment to the real
issue of don's manipulation of the list. I was ignored. It was almost as if
*I* was the spoiler. I was disheartened, surely, but not defeated. I
continue to advocate for a more diverse forum. I want to see more people
join in. Cow-towing to Don DOES NOT, AND WILL NOT invite others to
participate. Quite the opposite. If others think I'm wrong (or right) then
*please* acknowledge. Participate. If you enjoy endless reruns on TV, then
you'll likely not want to change things. If you want a forum for and by ALL
the people of this list, then you'll join me in condemning the mindless,
unsubstantiated, propaganda that spews unending from don. Like the uncapped
oil leak in the Gulf, don is polluting the waters of Grovenet's inlet sea.
I, like the people in the Gulf, am worried that the worst is yet to come if
we don't put a stop to it now. Let's put a cap on don now. What do the rest
of you think?

jimz


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net> wrote:

> *I have been on Grovenet for a few years, but I am not heard from here
> very much because I don't post unless I have something to say.
>
> Don, you gave me a glimmer of hope when you posted your stuff about
> history. I found it very interesting. I am disappointed that you can't
> seem to get past your hate fest though. I am pissed off at the amount of
> time I have spent reading and researching what amounts to a load of
> crap. Don't we have enough problems? (economy, war, jobs, environment,
> etc.) Do we really need to invent more by making the ones we have more
> difficult with lies and sabotage? There is too much here on Grovenet for
> too long that resembles the situation in the Gulf (a whole lot of
> pollution that someone else has to clean up). Example below.*
>
> donkelly wrote:
> > As if the broken well and damaged fishing industry were not catastrophic
> > enough, imagine the total catastrophe of shutting down the whole gulf
oil
> > production industry.
> >
> >
> **By whole do you mean all? Check again...**
>
> > **
> > Do you suppose the judge took that into consideration?
> >
> >
> **I would suspect that his investments were also considered...**
>
> >
> > I'm sure Obama didn't, otherwise why would he push a 100% shutdown while
> > everything else is operating safely?
> >
> >
> *Give us a break. It's just disgusting and immature to think that.
> Anybody in that position would have considered it even if we disagree
> with their results and thoughts...*
> >
> > I have a hard time even suspecting that BP would cut corners on the
> reliable
> > BOP system.
> >
> >
> *Right... Because all large corporations always put safety, their
> employees, and the public welfare above profits all the time, especially
> BP.
>
> Just face it, the President is not all powerful, he could not do
> everything to his liking just like you or I could not if we were the
> President. But, if we honestly work together we can make a bad situation
> better for most if not all.
>
> I am sorry for the rambling rant, but I have wasted too much of my time
> wading through a pile of crap...
> Keith
>
> P.S. I am truly sorry Don, but I won't be paying any attention to your
> posts anymore.
> *
> >
> > Don




From nospam03 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 23 21:10:47 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 04:10:47 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
Message-ID: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing out good topics of discussion. Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list. 


From edavie at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 21:18:00 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 21:18:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <6D6AE61552B0400E982E98072D9F9B5C@EdDaviePC>

You must be blind!
Ed




From: Steve 
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:10 PM
To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry


Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing out good topics of discussion. Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list. 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 22:10:17 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:10:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <F8ABE605-FDAF-472C-8444-0D0A0859AB19@verizon.net>

Izgara's has the best hummus! I love it.
And yes, it used to be the internet cafe.

Katie

On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:

> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.  Rhonda
> is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both enjoyed the
> sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks for all the well
> wishes.
>
> Anyways - got hungry and wanted to find a place for Rhonda to rest,  
> and
> get a good meal.  I haven't been downtown in quite some time so we
> walked around looking for a place to get a bite.  Now we have  
> discussed
> Forest Grove's restaurant selection (or lack of) many times.  And  
> while
> I'm sure all of the options we had tonight are very good, we just
> weren't in the mood for Pizza, or Tacos, or BBQ or Pub Food.
>
> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
> surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?  Or  
> was
> it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was WONDERFUL.  Lots of
> options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT service.  Will definitely
> come back again.  What a really nice surprise to discover a hidden
> little gem like this right in your own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.
> Hope you do well.
>
> chuck underwood
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 23 22:31:07 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:31:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>

It does seem a strange arrangement-- parents might already be gone to  
work while their kids wait at home for the school bus. Or, would  
parents be able to drop kids off on their way to work, leaving them  
to wait around at an empty school until starting time?
On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:

> I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional  
> feedback.
>
> The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later  
> every Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall  
> which currently starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't  
> start school until 9:45 on Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly  
> inconvenient for families, but the district has done a terrible job  
> of communicating this to parents.  Some I talk to haven't heard  
> about it and can't believe the district would actually do it -  
> because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard  
> about it".
>
> And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the  
> school must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school  
> days and reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents  
> and families and will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
>
> What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is  
> most significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about  
> it.  Does this impact you?
>
> I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters  
> education, but the distrust and decision making without regard to  
> impact is widening the chasm between the community and the district.
>
> Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> Marian
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 22:38:25 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:38:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>

Nice to see the two of you tonight.

Before Izgara, it was the Internet Cafe as noted, and before that it was Esoteric Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was remodeled.  I believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.

David

On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:

> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.  Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both enjoyed the sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks for all the well wishes. ...

> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?  Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT service.  Will definitely come back again.  What a really nice surprise to discover a hidden little gem like this right in your own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
> 
> chuck underwood



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 22:56:43 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:56:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A lone Marine holds salute for hours
In-Reply-To: <02ba01cb1307$1746b600$45d42200$@com>
References: <4C223FAC.000020.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<4C2243FB.000027.00384@DON-B2514E06367>
	<02ba01cb1307$1746b600$45d42200$@com>
Message-ID: <E05277BF-74F7-4D46-80E8-4D7A94EF3198@verizon.net>

He was clear on his expectations for the rest of us to honor those who have sacrificed for our nation.

David

On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> Don,
> 
>> From: donkelly
>> 
>> A very emotional video. A roaring tribute to every vet
>> who went before.
>> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gfnmDGk0KM&feature=related
> 
> And a video where he talks about why he did it and why he's been doing
> things like this for the past 8 years.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=62br6dtd6yQ&feature=watch_response
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From waltw at teleport.com  Wed Jun 23 23:03:15 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:03:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
	<C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <D88575A7-6B6B-4507-A526-8CF4F15B8122@teleport.com>

Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the next,  
but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some nights.
WW
On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> Nice to see the two of you tonight.
>
> Before Izgara, it was the Internet Cafe as noted, and before that  
> it was Esoteric Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was  
> remodeled.  I believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along  
> there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>
>> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we  
>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.   
>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both  
>> enjoyed the sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks  
>> for all the well wishes. ...
>
>> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE  
>> surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?   
>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was  
>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT  
>> service.  Will definitely come back again.  What a really nice  
>> surprise to discover a hidden little gem like this right in your  
>> own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>
>> chuck underwood
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 23:04:38 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:04:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drilling moratorium
	invests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <1487127192.6939631277276974500.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <F8834521-BD32-4A51-BB46-775DD52538CF@verizon.net>

If failure was due to random events, the triple failure might be a million to one.  But, if the failure was due to sloppy maintenance, poor installation, or user error then it changes from a probability of failure to a question of "when?"

>From the ABC article that was posted, the BOP failures were multiple times every year.  The maintenance was highly variable.  The manufacturing tests were relaxed.  And the likelihood increases with those factors.  Instead of 1 in a million, it may be 1 in a hundred.  And we have more than 33 wells being drilled now.

The government did not insist that the industry back away from stronger safety procedures that the industry wanted to enact, rather the government inspectors relaxed their oversight to meet with industry requests.  Contrary to some opinions that I have encountered, the Free Market will not provide the safest environment.  

David

On Jun 23, 2010, at 12:09 AM, donkelly wrote:

> The reality is it happened, and we don't know why or how it happened.
> 
> I am suspicious of the BOP, how it was built, and did it have the normal double back up systems. Seems a tripple failure would be a very long shot, a million to one chance jumps to mind.
> 
> don 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 23:06:27 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:06:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Why Doesn't the
	Media	Interrogate	Tea	Partiers'	Beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <4C22065A.3050004@gmail.com>
References: <007f01cb1196$ef3055c0$cd910140$@com> <4C201197.3010001@gmail.com>
	<FB61ABCB-9229-4211-8D04-E2AC6ECEAB52@teleport.com>
	<4C20DFD2.1000504@gmail.com>
	<7BD24C69-F345-458C-AB98-FA649750D932@verizon.net>
	<4C22065A.3050004@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16FFDE90-5036-441E-92E0-B1D2AF641C0F@verizon.net>

Thank you.


On Jun 23, 2010, at 6:04 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> Very valid points David, I agree.
> 
> Adam


From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 23:08:40 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:08:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
 drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing
> out good topics of discussion.




> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.
>

Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,
please!

jimz

PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?



>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From allnutt at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 23:12:26 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:12:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Soccer question
Message-ID: <47B71A88-C86C-487E-A491-3983A006F03F@verizon.net>

After Donovan's goal this morning we were sitting around laughing at  
how little we know about soccer. One question about forming a team  
came up and it was suggested that grovenet would know the answer.

In the Olympics, when the US puts together a team, players are chosen  
from a variety of professional teams.
Is this the same kind of process as a World Cup soccer team? Are  
players chosen from various teams across the country or is there one  
US team that plays together all year and that is the team that goes  
to the World cup?

Follow up question?
If it is a team that plays together all year, what other teams play  
against the US team during the year?

Katie



From debbratland at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 23:16:52 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:16:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>

Highlighted below is what the district has posted on its website regarding
the late start.

I find it interesting that Adlai Stevenson High School is mentioned as the
validation for pursuing PLCs in Forest Grove, since the Adlai Stevenson
(Lincolnshire Illinois) community is so completely different from our
community.  For one thing, from what I can tell Adlai Stevenson has a budget
of $90 million for 4200 students.  FG has a budget of $53 million for, what,
5200 students?  They have almost double the money to spend per student.
That certainly counts for at least some of their academic success!

Seems to me that we're dreaming if we think that we will get the same
results Stevenson does just by adopting a small piece of what they do
without considering the immense differences in resources and
demographics between the 2 districts.  (Stevenson has only 2-3% low income
and only 2-3% english language learners while we have significantly more
students who face those high hurdles.)

But having said that, my kids are beyond elementary school and they can
catch the bus even if I'm not here.  So I'm not actively opposing the idea.


But I think the lack of systematic notice to all parents in all schools is
an error in judgment on the district's part.  Report cards were mailed to
us.  Why wasn't there notice in the report cards?  It would have only cost
the price of paper to put a letter in with the report cards letting people
know this was being considered.


*FOREST GROVE SCHOOL DISTRICT *
*Late Start Exploration Process *
*March 29, 2010 *

The Forest Grove School District is in the process of implementing Data
Teams and Professional Learning Communities (PLC) as our key strategy for
implementing the changes required to improve student achievement. This
strategy requires teachers to meet in these teams weekly to collaboratively
review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust instruction and
design interventions appropriate to each student?s needs. In order for these
meetings to become consistent practice, teachers need time during their
regular workday to hold these meetings weekly. Additionally, this approach
enables our teaching staff to improve instructional practice and programs
over time. Research shows that professional development most likely to
result in a change of practice must be embedded and on
?going providing opportunities for teachers to engage regularly in dialogue
about their practice.

In addition to work in data teams and PLCs, we need time for all staff to
participate in on
?going professional development around best practice in instructional
strategies and approaches for becoming a school system that produces
equitable outcomes. This professional development must be addressed in an
ongoing manner to ensure transformational change.

The administrative team proposes a process for exploring a late start
beginning in the fall that would enable teachers to meet regularly in
collaborative teams, participate in on
?going professional development and work on K?12 alignment in each content
area. At the present time, K?12 alignment happens only once in a while with
a few teachers. Use of a late start would enable the district to provide
professional development without as much need for sub release time. When we
can provide professional development only through sub release opportunities,
teachers have less time directly teaching students and must additionally
prepare for the substitute. *

The visit to Adlai Stevenson High School validated our prior thinking that
we can accomplish important instructional improvements through regular,
structured collaboration and professional development time. As we build our
proposal, we will pay careful attention to minimizing the impact to families
and instructional time. Additionally we will build in enough structure and
accountability to maximize our efficiency and evaluate the effectiveness of
this strategy.
*

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com> wrote:

> It does seem a strange arrangement-- parents might already be gone to
> work while their kids wait at home for the school bus. Or, would
> parents be able to drop kids off on their way to work, leaving them
> to wait around at an empty school until starting time?
>  On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
>
> > I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional
> > feedback.
> >
> > The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later
> > every Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall
> > which currently starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't
> > start school until 9:45 on Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly
> > inconvenient for families, but the district has done a terrible job
> > of communicating this to parents.  Some I talk to haven't heard
> > about it and can't believe the district would actually do it -
> > because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard
> > about it".
> >
> > And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the
> > school must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school
> > days and reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents
> > and families and will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
> >
> > What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is
> > most significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about
> > it.  Does this impact you?
> >
> > I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters
> > education, but the distrust and decision making without regard to
> > impact is widening the chasm between the community and the district.
> >
> > Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> > Marian
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 23:29:37 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:29:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42F8D3B5-6C47-4923-85E8-B9A6940BDD7C@verizon.net>

Don't expect a show of hands.  Many people do not wish to put their feeling out for public comment.

If there are people who enjoy or agree with Don's political ramblings, I would doubt that many would open themselves up to potential ridicule or derision.

To that end, I would offer that much of the anti-Obama postings are poorly researched and they are frequently inaccurate both in terms of historic evidence and legal application.  If anyone intended to rely upon those postings, they would benefit from doing personal research on the underlying "facts".  

For example World Net Daily is not neutral on the issue of Hawaiian birth.  In a hosted forum on the birth "controversy", people who questioned the citizenship of Obama were supported, while the host told contributors who supported the Native Citizenship of Obama to "get with the program or get off the forum".  Truth, evidence, law and facts were attractive parts of the discussion.  Innuendo, suspicion, misstatements and fear were desired.

David


On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing
>> out good topics of discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.
>> 
> 
> Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,
> please!
> 
> jimz
> 
> PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?



From jo.david at verizon.net  Wed Jun 23 23:32:58 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:32:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <42F8D3B5-6C47-4923-85E8-B9A6940BDD7C@verizon.net>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<42F8D3B5-6C47-4923-85E8-B9A6940BDD7C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <A6C84686-2B81-4C49-801E-A6D6288EE404@verizon.net>

Must be late, I cannot even quote myself well.

> Truth, evidence, law and facts were NOT CONSIDERED attractive parts of the discussion.

On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:29 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> ...  Truth, evidence, law and facts were attractive parts of the discussion.  Innuendo, suspicion, misstatements and fear were desired.
> 
> David



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 23:40:23 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:40:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRhUOWEbEYdLxPsOIpB7hkxJ-kDxJ6XwkneFAR@mail.gmail.com>

Debra,

I agree with you, it's the old apples to oranges shtick. It's a paradox
really, they may compare us where we are the same and neglect the
differences. I agree with their mission statement however, teachers do need
consistent development time. I don't agree with how they are going about
doing it however.

The last paragraph seems a bit irregular however, as the reference to
"minimizing the impact to families," seems not to be the case. Makes me
wonder how much thought they really gave to this question, and whether they
actually consulted parents about it at all. Walt's reference to children
being left at home alone, or dropped off at school before it opens, is a
little disquieting. I think they need to rethink this.

jimz



On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Debra Bratland <debbratland at gmail.com>wrote:

> Highlighted below is what the district has posted on its website regarding
> the late start.
>
> I find it interesting that Adlai Stevenson High School is mentioned as the
> validation for pursuing PLCs in Forest Grove, since the Adlai Stevenson
> (Lincolnshire Illinois) community is so completely different from our
> community.  For one thing, from what I can tell Adlai Stevenson has a
> budget
> of $90 million for 4200 students.  FG has a budget of $53 million for,
> what,
> 5200 students?  They have almost double the money to spend per student.
> That certainly counts for at least some of their academic success!
>
> Seems to me that we're dreaming if we think that we will get the same
> results Stevenson does just by adopting a small piece of what they do
> without considering the immense differences in resources and
> demographics between the 2 districts.  (Stevenson has only 2-3% low income
> and only 2-3% english language learners while we have significantly more
> students who face those high hurdles.)
>
> But having said that, my kids are beyond elementary school and they can
> catch the bus even if I'm not here.  So I'm not actively opposing the idea.
>
>
> But I think the lack of systematic notice to all parents in all schools is
> an error in judgment on the district's part.  Report cards were mailed to
> us.  Why wasn't there notice in the report cards?  It would have only cost
> the price of paper to put a letter in with the report cards letting people
> know this was being considered.
>
>
> *FOREST GROVE SCHOOL DISTRICT *
> *Late Start Exploration Process *
> *March 29, 2010 *
>
> The Forest Grove School District is in the process of implementing Data
> Teams and Professional Learning Communities (PLC) as our key strategy for
> implementing the changes required to improve student achievement. This
> strategy requires teachers to meet in these teams weekly to collaboratively
> review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust instruction and
> design interventions appropriate to each student?s needs. In order for
> these
> meetings to become consistent practice, teachers need time during their
> regular workday to hold these meetings weekly. Additionally, this approach
> enables our teaching staff to improve instructional practice and programs
> over time. Research shows that professional development most likely to
> result in a change of practice must be embedded and on
> ?going providing opportunities for teachers to engage regularly in dialogue
> about their practice.
>
> In addition to work in data teams and PLCs, we need time for all staff to
> participate in on
> ?going professional development around best practice in instructional
> strategies and approaches for becoming a school system that produces
> equitable outcomes. This professional development must be addressed in an
> ongoing manner to ensure transformational change.
>
> The administrative team proposes a process for exploring a late start
> beginning in the fall that would enable teachers to meet regularly in
> collaborative teams, participate in on
> ?going professional development and work on K?12 alignment in each content
> area. At the present time, K?12 alignment happens only once in a while with
> a few teachers. Use of a late start would enable the district to provide
> professional development without as much need for sub release time. When we
> can provide professional development only through sub release
> opportunities,
> teachers have less time directly teaching students and must additionally
> prepare for the substitute. *
>
> The visit to Adlai Stevenson High School validated our prior thinking that
> we can accomplish important instructional improvements through regular,
> structured collaboration and professional development time. As we build our
> proposal, we will pay careful attention to minimizing the impact to
> families
> and instructional time. Additionally we will build in enough structure and
> accountability to maximize our efficiency and evaluate the effectiveness of
> this strategy.
> *
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com> wrote:
>
> > It does seem a strange arrangement-- parents might already be gone to
> > work while their kids wait at home for the school bus. Or, would
> > parents be able to drop kids off on their way to work, leaving them
> > to wait around at an empty school until starting time?
> >  On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote:
> >
> > > I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional
> > > feedback.
> > >
> > > The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later
> > > every Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall
> > > which currently starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't
> > > start school until 9:45 on Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly
> > > inconvenient for families, but the district has done a terrible job
> > > of communicating this to parents.  Some I talk to haven't heard
> > > about it and can't believe the district would actually do it -
> > > because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard
> > > about it".
> > >
> > > And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the
> > > school must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school
> > > days and reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents
> > > and families and will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
> > >
> > > What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is
> > > most significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about
> > > it.  Does this impact you?
> > >
> > > I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters
> > > education, but the distrust and decision making without regard to
> > > impact is widening the chasm between the community and the district.
> > >
> > > Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> > > Marian
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 00:11:10 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:11:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
 drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <42F8D3B5-6C47-4923-85E8-B9A6940BDD7C@verizon.net>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<42F8D3B5-6C47-4923-85E8-B9A6940BDD7C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilpZ71iAqhZtmnPlg6Whs0Rv_qrkKaSimPpfyFn@mail.gmail.com>

David,

I agree with you. I really wasn't expecting a show of hands, just a little
more buzz from the gallery. Anything is better than the sounds of silence
that have shrouded this issue. The beauty of forums like this, is that one
can lurk or one can participate and no one's either the better or the worst
for it. I go back and forth myself, often choosing the good life in the
Lurker Gallery. I just feel it would be nice to have a fresh group of new
people discussing fresh new ideas. Good for the soul! Good for Grovenet!

jimz

PS: With regard to my response to Steve's post. I admit it was a bit of a
tit-for-tat reaction. Sometimes words inspire, sometimes they incite. I
guess the word *bigot* got the best of me. Sorry Steve.




On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:29 PM, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>wrote:

> Don't expect a show of hands.  Many people do not wish to put their feeling
> out for public comment.
>
> If there are people who enjoy or agree with Don's political ramblings, I
> would doubt that many would open themselves up to potential ridicule or
> derision.
>
> To that end, I would offer that much of the anti-Obama postings are poorly
> researched and they are frequently inaccurate both in terms of historic
> evidence and legal application.  If anyone intended to rely upon those
> postings, they would benefit from doing personal research on the underlying
> "facts".
>
> For example World Net Daily is not neutral on the issue of Hawaiian birth.
>  In a hosted forum on the birth "controversy", people who questioned the
> citizenship of Obama were supported, while the host told contributors who
> supported the Native Citizenship of Obama to "get with the program or get
> off the forum".  Truth, evidence, law and facts were attractive parts of the
> discussion.  Innuendo, suspicion, misstatements and fear were desired.
>
> David
>
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for
> pointing
> >> out good topics of discussion.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>> Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this
> list.
> >>
> >
> > Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,
> > please!
> >
> > jimz
> >
> > PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 00:13:20 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:13:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <003d01cb1350$cc001520$64003f60$@com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<003d01cb1350$cc001520$64003f60$@com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>

I like your study hall idea Ron. Kids will all be safe in school. Teacher
aides could man the study halls or home rooms. Lives would not be disrupted,
and the teachers could get their much needed prep and meeting time.

jimz

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

> As I recall (from a scan of the flier that was sent out by Harvey Clarke)
> it
> was to enable the teachers to get together to plan and for team building.
> If the kids could go to school at the regular time and do a study hall
> activity it wouldn't impact the families and it would give the kids a
> chance
> to catch up on that class they have been putting off.;)
> When is the next school board meeting? Hopefully they have some answers or
> are willing to listen to the parents perspective.
>
> Ron H.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Jim Zaleski
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
>
> Marian,
>
> I recall your earlier post on this a short time ago, and since I don't have
> any kids in the district anymore, I didn't follow the thread. For the sake
> of discussion, however, I can offer my opinion based upon having been a
> parent and my own awareness of how disruptive such a scheduling anomaly can
> be. If this scheduling change has nothing to do with the budget cuts then
> it
> sounds like an arbitrary one made to accommodate some special need the
> district may have. Not having any background on the issue or statement from
> the school, it's difficult to form an opinion as to it's necessity. From a
> parent standpoint, I agree, the disruption can be huge. Every Tom McCall
> parent must alter their schedules to accommodate the change, and for some
> that may involve considerable effort.
>
> My question would be, is the benefit to the school worth the effort of so
> many parents? What exactly is the purpose? Teacher planning? Meeting time?
> My wife was an elementary teacher for many years and I know it is a
> demanding, time consuming job, so I don't fault them for wanting extra time
> to plan and prepare (if that is the reason). I just think something like
> this, in that it impacts so many, ought to have been the subject of some
> public discussion. While an extra half hour may seem a trifle, it's huge
> when it comes to compliance at the family level.
>
> Does anyone out there know the details, so we can all be on the same page?
> Obviously, Marian is expressing the type of frustration common with change,
> and it is highly likely that she is speaking unofficially for many other
> parents as well. I recall this earlier thread had a discussion about what
> schools were affected and which schools notified parents of the impending
> change. I also recall there was no consistancy in the notification process.
> Perhaps if some learned list member could contribute more details Marian
> could get some of the answers she seeks. Mike S., you, among others on this
> list, are our resident authority on such matters (even tho you aren't
> involved as you once were). What's your take on this change, and why wasn't
> there a district-wide notice sent out to parents?
>
> Whether this thread becomes an exchange of information or a debate on the
> soundness of the district's decision is up to the list. What is important
> is
> that it is a local issue and THIS is where the value of having this forum
> in
> the first place makes all the difference. Local issues. Local values.
> People
> talking to people. Power to the people. Go Grovenet!!!
>
> jimz
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis
> <oldredwagon at verizon.net>wrote:
>
> > I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional feedback.
> >
> > The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later every
> > Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which
> currently
> > starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school until 9:45
> on
> > Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for families, but
> the
> > district has done a terrible job of communicating this to parents.  Some
> I
> > talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would
> actually
> > do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would have heard
> > about it".
> >
> > And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the
> school
> > must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and
> > reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and families and
> > will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
> >
> > What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is most
> > significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.  Does
> this
> > impact you?
> >
> > I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters education,
> but
> > the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is widening the
> > chasm between the community and the district.
> >
> > Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
> > Marian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 00:32:03 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 00:32:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
	<C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>
	<D88575A7-6B6B-4507-A526-8CF4F15B8122@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C2309ED.000001.01720@DON-B2514E06367>

How to get there anyone?

Chuck, happy to hear Rhonda's recovery is going well.

Don  
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Walt Wentz
Date: 06/23/10 23:01:57
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
 
Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the next,
but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some nights.
WW
On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David Morelli wrote:
 
> Nice to see the two of you tonight.
>
> Before Izgara, it was the Internet Cafe as noted, and before that
> it was Esoteric Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was
> remodeled.  I believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along
> there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>
>> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.
>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both
>> enjoyed the sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks
>> for all the well wishes. ...
>
>> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
>> surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?
>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was
>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT
>> service.  Will definitely come back again.  What a really nice
>> surprise to discover a hidden little gem like this right in your
>> own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>
>> chuck underwood
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
-------------- next part --------------
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From jawelch at coho.net  Thu Jun 24 06:09:24 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 06:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
 offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <6D6AE61552B0400E982E98072D9F9B5C@EdDaviePC>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<6D6AE61552B0400E982E98072D9F9B5C@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <acf0efe2681539a62c4d3330ee2202a0.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





Nope, probably
just jerking our collective chains (I hope).
> You must be
blind!
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
From: Steve
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:10
PM
> To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
>
offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
> 
> 
> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for
pointing
> out good topics of discussion. Thank you for good posts
without all the
> bigotry of the left on this list.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet
mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 07:09:14 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:09:14 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>

Quote, " ...in the process of implementing Data
Teams and Professional Learning Communities (PLC) as our key strategy  
for
implementing the changes required to improve student achievement. This
strategy requires teachers to meet in these teams weekly to  
collaboratively
review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust  
instruction and
design interventions appropriate to each student?s needs...."

Does anyone here follow "Dilbert?" This sounds uncannily like the  
bomfog popular among certain "business success" gurus. Basically what  
they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day for  
already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss ways of  
coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too  
many students, some of whom have different requirements than others.

If anyone here has a talented and gifted child, I'd certainly  
advocate spending more of your own time and money in widening their  
intellectual horizons and challenging their capabilities, because it  
seems likely the local schools won't have the horsepower.

Or perhaps I'm just being sour and cynical this morning, and there  
really is something to it.
WW.


From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 07:23:43 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:23:43 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<003d01cb1350$cc001520$64003f60$@com>
	<AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C51C057F-4C23-4000-B150-EED0A5B91094@teleport.com>

Ron, Jim:
A morning study hall could be a good way around the problems I was  
speculating about (kids left alone, or at their own devices at  
school). The absolute requirement, however, would be competent and  
authoritative teacher's aides in charge!  Otherwise, many of the kids  
would just fall into the "recess" pattern, and be too wound up and  
distracted by socializing, horseplay and bickering to concentrate on  
the first classes of the day.
In a more structured setup, the students could perhaps be discussing  
or coaching each other on specific classes and assignments (yeah, i  
know, some will crib notes from each other and put off homework until  
the last minute before first class, but they would do that anyway).   
The important thing is not to waste the time of the talented and  
gifted, who are likely to be short-changed in this grim economy.
WW

On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:13 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> I like your study hall idea Ron. Kids will all be safe in school.  
> Teacher
> aides could man the study halls or home rooms. Lives would not be  
> disrupted,
> and the teachers could get their much needed prep and meeting time.
>
> jimz
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> As I recall (from a scan of the flier that was sent out by Harvey  
>> Clarke)
>> it
>> was to enable the teachers to get together to plan and for team  
>> building.
>> If the kids could go to school at the regular time and do a study  
>> hall
>> activity it wouldn't impact the families and it would give the kids a
>> chance
>> to catch up on that class they have been putting off.;)
>> When is the next school board meeting? Hopefully they have some  
>> answers or
>> are willing to listen to the parents perspective.
>>
>> Ron H.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
>> ~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Zaleski
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:25 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
>>
>> Marian,
>>
>> I recall your earlier post on this a short time ago, and since I  
>> don't have
>> any kids in the district anymore, I didn't follow the thread. For  
>> the sake
>> of discussion, however, I can offer my opinion based upon having  
>> been a
>> parent and my own awareness of how disruptive such a scheduling  
>> anomaly can
>> be. If this scheduling change has nothing to do with the budget  
>> cuts then
>> it
>> sounds like an arbitrary one made to accommodate some special need  
>> the
>> district may have. Not having any background on the issue or  
>> statement from
>> the school, it's difficult to form an opinion as to it's  
>> necessity. From a
>> parent standpoint, I agree, the disruption can be huge. Every Tom  
>> McCall
>> parent must alter their schedules to accommodate the change, and  
>> for some
>> that may involve considerable effort.
>>
>> My question would be, is the benefit to the school worth the  
>> effort of so
>> many parents? What exactly is the purpose? Teacher planning?  
>> Meeting time?
>> My wife was an elementary teacher for many years and I know it is a
>> demanding, time consuming job, so I don't fault them for wanting  
>> extra time
>> to plan and prepare (if that is the reason). I just think  
>> something like
>> this, in that it impacts so many, ought to have been the subject  
>> of some
>> public discussion. While an extra half hour may seem a trifle,  
>> it's huge
>> when it comes to compliance at the family level.
>>
>> Does anyone out there know the details, so we can all be on the  
>> same page?
>> Obviously, Marian is expressing the type of frustration common  
>> with change,
>> and it is highly likely that she is speaking unofficially for many  
>> other
>> parents as well. I recall this earlier thread had a discussion  
>> about what
>> schools were affected and which schools notified parents of the  
>> impending
>> change. I also recall there was no consistancy in the notification  
>> process.
>> Perhaps if some learned list member could contribute more details  
>> Marian
>> could get some of the answers she seeks. Mike S., you, among  
>> others on this
>> list, are our resident authority on such matters (even tho you aren't
>> involved as you once were). What's your take on this change, and  
>> why wasn't
>> there a district-wide notice sent out to parents?
>>
>> Whether this thread becomes an exchange of information or a debate  
>> on the
>> soundness of the district's decision is up to the list. What is  
>> important
>> is
>> that it is a local issue and THIS is where the value of having  
>> this forum
>> in
>> the first place makes all the difference. Local issues. Local values.
>> People
>> talking to people. Power to the people. Go Grovenet!!!
>>
>> jimz
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis
>> <oldredwagon at verizon.net>wrote:
>>
>>> I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional  
>>> feedback.
>>>
>>> The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later  
>>> every
>>> Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which
>> currently
>>> starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school  
>>> until 9:45
>> on
>>> Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for  
>>> families, but
>> the
>>> district has done a terrible job of communicating this to  
>>> parents.  Some
>> I
>>> talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would
>> actually
>>> do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would  
>>> have heard
>>> about it".
>>>
>>> And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the
>> school
>>> must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and
>>> reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and  
>>> families and
>>> will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
>>>
>>> What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents  
>>> is most
>>> significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.   
>>> Does
>> this
>>> impact you?
>>>
>>> I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters  
>>> education,
>> but
>>> the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is  
>>> widening the
>>> chasm between the community and the district.
>>>
>>> Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
>>> Marian
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 07:25:05 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:25:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <4C2309ED.000001.01720@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
	<C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>
	<D88575A7-6B6B-4507-A526-8CF4F15B8122@teleport.com>
	<4C2309ED.000001.01720@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <3180035A-0E16-4FC4-AC60-8CDD8255C413@teleport.com>

Right on Main Street, a couple of doors south from Pizza Schmizza.
On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:32 AM, donkelly wrote:

> How to get there anyone?
>
> Chuck, happy to hear Rhonda's recovery is going well.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Walt Wentz
> Date: 06/23/10 23:01:57
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
>
> Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the next,
> but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some nights.
> WW
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> Nice to see the two of you tonight.
>>
>> Before Izgara, it was the Internet Cafe as noted, and before that
>> it was Esoteric Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was
>> remodeled.  I believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along
>> there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>>
>>> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
>>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.
>>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both
>>> enjoyed the sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks
>>> for all the well wishes. ...
>>
>>> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
>>> surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?
>>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was
>>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT
>>> service.  Will definitely come back again.  What a really nice
>>> surprise to discover a hidden little gem like this right in your
>>> own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>>
>>> chuck underwood
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jawelch at coho.net  Thu Jun 24 07:27:02 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <eb91eb97e375d60f8d4635bbb3592b5c.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





To tell the
truth, Walt, I had a similar reaction when reading the statement.? I was
thinking " This must have been written by lawyers or
politicians" (but I repeat myself).? It does sound like
"consultant speak".> Quote, " ...in the process of
implementing Data
> Teams and Professional Learning Communities
(PLC) as our key strategy
> for
> implementing the changes
required to improve student achievement. This
> strategy requires
teachers to meet in these teams weekly to
> collaboratively
> review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust
> instruction and
> design interventions appropriate to each
student?s needs...."
> 
> Does anyone here follow
"Dilbert?" This sounds uncannily like the
> bomfog
popular among certain "business success" gurus. Basically
what
> they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day
for
> already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss
ways of
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to
serve too
> many students, some of whom have different
requirements than others.
> 
> If anyone here has a
talented and gifted child, I'd certainly
> advocate spending more
of your own time and money in widening their
> intellectual
horizons and challenging their capabilities, because it
> seems
likely the local schools won't have the horsepower.
> 
>
Or perhaps I'm just being sour and cynical this morning, and there
> really is something to it.
> WW.
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

From jawelch at coho.net  Thu Jun 24 07:30:44 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <3180035A-0E16-4FC4-AC60-8CDD8255C413@teleport.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C22D2DA.10300@grovenet.net>
	<C8AA1252-107C-4793-88D3-3157E915E4CE@verizon.net>
	<D88575A7-6B6B-4507-A526-8CF4F15B8122@teleport.com>
	<4C2309ED.000001.01720@DON-B2514E06367>
	<3180035A-0E16-4FC4-AC60-8CDD8255C413@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <7b21242591f0671ce1cc66cd6da69ccb.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>






And, yes,
they do have a belly dancer (on Friday evenings).? We love the food and
try to make it in once a week.? Watch out for the green contiment they
serve - it is liquid fire.
> Right on Main Street, a couple
of doors south from Pizza Schmizza.
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:32
AM, donkelly wrote:
> 
>> How to get there anyone?
>>
>> Chuck, happy to hear Rhonda's recovery is going
well.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
From: Walt Wentz
>> Date:
06/23/10 23:01:57
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
>>
>> Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the
next,
>> but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some
nights.
>> WW
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David
Morelli wrote:
>>
>>> Nice to see the two of you
tonight.
>>>
>>> Before Izgara, it was the
Internet Cafe as noted, and before that
>>> it was Esoteric
Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was
>>> remodeled.  I
believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along
>>>
there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2010,
at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>>>
>>>> Took
advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
>>>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's
Market.
>>>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is
healing nicely.  We both
>>>> enjoyed the sunshine and
just getting out of the house.  Thanks
>>>> for all the
well wishes. ...
>>>
>>>> So - we wandered
into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
>>>>
surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?
>>>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food
was
>>>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably
priced, and GREAT
>>>> service.  Will definitely come
back again.  What a really nice
>>>> surprise to discover
a hidden little gem like this right in your
>>>> own back
yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>>>
>>>> chuck underwood
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>
grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet
mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

From debbratland at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 07:38:36 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 07:38:36 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilwpKlMBNAFmou0rSa7ON60yNdvC1sOJ4KMqz5I@mail.gmail.com>

I believe that one of the most successful strategies our district has
implemented, especially in working to bring up the academic level of our
struggling students, is to have those students spend *more* time in the core
areas of reading and math, not *less* time.  The math and reading workshops
at the middle school and at the high school seem to have made
quite a difference in the test scores of those kids.  In general, I think
our district is doing a really good job serving the basic academic needs of
those students, at least insofar as the state tests can measure success.

As to talented and gifted kids - they seem to be chronically underserved,
and malnourished as a result.  School for them can be more about learning
how to deal with disappointment, and figuring out how to get through as
quickly as possible in order to move on.

As to whether or not the late start will bring about the hoped-for results,
one would hope that the district would see this as a trial run, with
measurable goals in place.  If the district wants to be "data-driven"
(that's actually kind of scarey to me, but I probably just don't understand
it ...), then it needs to hold itself to its own standards, and tell us what
the data should show as a result of the late start.  I wonder though,
if once implemented, it will become just a fact of life that will go on ad
infinitum, regardless of results or lack thereof, or unintended
consequences.

Deb

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com> wrote:

> Quote, " ...in the process of implementing Data
> Teams and Professional Learning Communities (PLC) as our key strategy
> for
> implementing the changes required to improve student achievement. This
> strategy requires teachers to meet in these teams weekly to
> collaboratively
> review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust
> instruction and
> design interventions appropriate to each student?s needs...."
>
> Does anyone here follow "Dilbert?" This sounds uncannily like the
> bomfog popular among certain "business success" gurus. Basically what
> they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day for
> already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss ways of
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others.
>
> If anyone here has a talented and gifted child, I'd certainly
> advocate spending more of your own time and money in widening their
> intellectual horizons and challenging their capabilities, because it
> seems likely the local schools won't have the horsepower.
>
> Or perhaps I'm just being sour and cynical this morning, and there
> really is something to it.
> WW.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 07:59:15 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:59:15 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C848DCF3.17458%hannah@teleport.com>




 Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools did
not send out the note about the proposed change?

  I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
    What happened? 
    Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never look
at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
    Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them will
say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
    Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
there on the floor.
    Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
'contest' on the way home.
    Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a friend.
    Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters into
the mail box of each child has quite a time with one-to-one-correspondence
and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
    Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were blank
and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
    The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going to
the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
    Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly it
was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
teacher will remember to replace them....
    Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to be
unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes was
restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably do
not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note they
thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
    Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
doing something. 

    I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any, or
even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
other instances.
    It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)

    But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content and
declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
    Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything may
have happened to break the chain of announcement.

    Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best done
in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really were or
were not sent home?

    PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel pleased
when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that much,
but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does it,
than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next option
is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them even
easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.

    Kristy  





From waltw at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 08:06:50 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:06:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilwpKlMBNAFmou0rSa7ON60yNdvC1sOJ4KMqz5I@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTilwpKlMBNAFmou0rSa7ON60yNdvC1sOJ4KMqz5I@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FE7072D9-933A-4FBF-B849-3E3F36455790@teleport.com>

That last bit is very well put, Deb!
As tor TAG students being chronically "intellectually malnourished,"  
however, I believe that IS something the school can do something  
about-- not by filling the TAG student's day with rote-work and  
undemanding pabulum, but by providing wider resources, and letting  
the TAG students go after them on their own. This does not need to  
cost much money. As an example, my own little grade school, when i  
was growing up (way back in the Old Stone Age), had mini-libraries  
for every classroom. This was a little anteroom full of books from  
many sources-- yard sales, citizen donations, etc.-- and of many  
different levels. One third-grade student could read Richard  
Halliburton or Benvenutio Celllini wile another was reading Dr.  
Suess.  Some of those books were almost 50 years old, but there was  
nothing else wrong with them-- and kids were able to choose their own  
level of reading! Similarly, alerting TAG students (and their  
parents) to cultural or intellectual opportunities (theatrical  
events, major museum exhibits, etc). would at least offer them a  
chance to explore on their own or as a family, without involving the  
school.
WW
>
> As to whether or not the late start will bring about the hoped-for  
> results,
> one would hope that the district would see this as a trial run, with
> measurable goals in place.  If the district wants to be "data-driven"
> (that's actually kind of scarey to me, but I probably just don't  
> understand
> it ...), then it needs to hold itself to its own standards, and  
> tell us what
> the data should show as a result of the late start.  I wonder though,
> if once implemented, it will become just a fact of life that will  
> go on ad
> infinitum, regardless of results or lack thereof, or unintended
> consequences.
>
> Deb
WW
>
>

From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 08:16:03 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:16:03 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C848E0E3.1745B%hannah@teleport.com>




On 6/24/10 2:13 AM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like your study hall idea Ron.
    I think it has possibilities too. But it's not quite as easy as "do it."

> Kids will all be safe in school. Teacher
> aides could man the study halls or home rooms.
    I don't think that would work. Aides help amazingly to get things done.
BUT they cannot assume full charge of a group without "supervision" by a
certified teacher. Any time that they are alone with even one or two, the
teacher (principal,superintendent, and board) are responsible if anything
goes amiss. The Board will not be pleased if it does. You could not justify
leaving the whole school in the care of aides without any certified
supervision. Removing some teachers from the planning (to supervise) negates
any improved results.

> Lives would not be disrupted,
    I think you mean the lives of parents.

> and the teachers could get their much needed prep and meeting time.
    It is needed. And the chances are high that teachers are not
enthusiastic about adding time at the end a long and exhausting day to try
to think well. Plus guess who has parent obligations too...their own kids
must be picked up from the sitters and supper prepared and homework done. Oh
and their kids' homework supervised too. (Yes, teachers have homework too.)

    Thus, it ain't nearly as easy as it sounds.
    
    Would it work to put on two or more study hall days? So that some
teaching teams could meet one day while the other half supervised? And then
the other way round. It is very important also that aides be in those
planning meetings! The aide who makes the real difference is one who is an
equal member of the team...planning curriculum, planning techniques, and
being valued as a respected and integral part of the team.

    Kristy




From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 08:22:08 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:22:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilwpKlMBNAFmou0rSa7ON60yNdvC1sOJ4KMqz5I@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<FD878124-2731-4536-8771-6F28462083CC@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTil-nvA-ONl1I5GeatofKb3bLWWejv4dtq0zAbXM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
	<AANLkTilwpKlMBNAFmou0rSa7ON60yNdvC1sOJ4KMqz5I@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <310934DC03FF477A9DCE96DFE9F8344F@JeffVAIO>

I agree with your assessment of what works/doesn't work for the kids.  But 
less "seat time" won't serve any of them.

As far as scores go, I think there is a lot of value in the scores and it 
certainly helps me see progress or lack thereof.  Yet, the data has to be 
taken with a grain of salt.  Our conventional way of testing the kids on 
reading and math tells us how kids are doing in reading and math and nothing 
more.  We tend to value our kids just based on these scores, when there are 
lots of other qualities we want our kids to develop and none of these are 
measured.  I'd like to see some development of measurements to measure 
skills like: logic and reasoning, critical thinking, creativity, etc.  These 
are the skills we will need in the future - if we can't measure them, we 
won't help the kids develop these skills.

In response to one of the other posts about this late start, the district 
does not allow parents to drop children off more than a specified amount of 
time before school starts (usually 30 minutes).  And I doubt they are 
planning for a recess or study hall to address the needs of parents. 
Although I understand the need for teachers to plan and collaborate, I'm not 
sure I agree that this is the only way to do that.  I think of teachers as 
professionals, rather than hourly workers to be compensated for every 
minute.  As professionals, I expect them to collaborate with their 
colleagues on a regular basis.  All teachers are currently on their summer 
"sabbatical", which they receive every year, in addition to planning days 
during the school year.  And YES, I know they work hard, but the fact is, so 
do many other professionals who work more than eight hours a day and 
sometimes on weekends too.  I don't want to begrudge teachers, but I lament 
the quote from the teacher recently in the News Times, which reported from 
the last school board meeting:
".....high school math teacher, told the crowd that most of the teachers in 
his department were "burned out" because of a new layer of expectations 
attached to FGHS' move to proficiency-based grading.   was quoted in the 
Forest Grove News Times,
?My workday starts at 7:30 a.m. and I typically leave around 4 p.m.  Some 
teachers stay until 6 to get their work done."

marian



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Debra Bratland" <debbratland at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:38 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"

> I believe that one of the most successful strategies our district has
> implemented, especially in working to bring up the academic level of our
> struggling students, is to have those students spend *more* time in the 
> core
> areas of reading and math, not *less* time.  The math and reading 
> workshops
> at the middle school and at the high school seem to have made
> quite a difference in the test scores of those kids.  In general, I think
> our district is doing a really good job serving the basic academic needs 
> of
> those students, at least insofar as the state tests can measure success.
>
> As to talented and gifted kids - they seem to be chronically underserved,
> and malnourished as a result.  School for them can be more about learning
> how to deal with disappointment, and figuring out how to get through as
> quickly as possible in order to move on.
>
> As to whether or not the late start will bring about the hoped-for 
> results,
> one would hope that the district would see this as a trial run, with
> measurable goals in place.  If the district wants to be "data-driven"
> (that's actually kind of scarey to me, but I probably just don't 
> understand
> it ...), then it needs to hold itself to its own standards, and tell us 
> what
> the data should show as a result of the late start.  I wonder though,
> if once implemented, it will become just a fact of life that will go on ad
> infinitum, regardless of results or lack thereof, or unintended
> consequences.
>
> Deb
>
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com> wrote:
>
>> Quote, " ...in the process of implementing Data
>> Teams and Professional Learning Communities (PLC) as our key strategy
>> for
>> implementing the changes required to improve student achievement. This
>> strategy requires teachers to meet in these teams weekly to
>> collaboratively
>> review and analyze multiple sources of student data, adjust
>> instruction and
>> design interventions appropriate to each student?s needs...."
>>
>> Does anyone here follow "Dilbert?" This sounds uncannily like the
>> bomfog popular among certain "business success" gurus. Basically what
>> they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day for
>> already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss ways of
>> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
>> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others.
>>
>> If anyone here has a talented and gifted child, I'd certainly
>> advocate spending more of your own time and money in widening their
>> intellectual horizons and challenging their capabilities, because it
>> seems likely the local schools won't have the horsepower.
>>
>> Or perhaps I'm just being sour and cynical this morning, and there
>> really is something to it.
>> WW.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 08:32:59 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:32:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C848DCF3.17458%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C848DCF3.17458%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <5ECD63979E064B6985416F2FC9193427@JeffVAIO>

Hi Kristy,

I don't believe anyone from Tom McCall received a notice and this population 
consists of all the 5th and 6th graders in the district.  If I'm wrong and 
anyone from Tom McCall received one, I'd like to know.

>From someone who has spent a lot of time in businesses and have heard those 
same excuses, "I never heard that", "nobody told me", and "how was I 
supposed to know", communication is a difficult thing and doubly difficult 
when working with the general public.  BUT, in this case the district did 
not make an adequate attempt to notify parents and families.  The 
information about this "late start" is buried at the bottom of the website 
and many of their other avenues of communication were not used.  Now the 
bond measure has certainly received a lot more press and won't affect 
families for many months, but this is a change which will affect them in 
less than 3 months and I don't think it's been very well planned.

If the planning for implementing this is so poorly done, it doesn't engender 
any confidence that the 1/2 hour every week will be better utilized.  And 
even if they spend the 1/2 hour planning, does the district have the 
resources to implement those plans and how are they going to measure the 
effectivity?

marian



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kristy Gravlin" <hannah at teleport.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"

>
>
>
> Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools did
> not send out the note about the proposed change?
>
>  I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
> and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
>    What happened?
>    Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never look
> at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
>    Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them will
> say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
>    Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
> there on the floor.
>    Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
> 'contest' on the way home.
>    Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a friend.
>    Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters 
> into
> the mail box of each child has quite a time with one-to-one-correspondence
> and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
>    Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were 
> blank
> and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
>    The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
> long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
> s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going to
> the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
>    Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
> one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly it
> was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
> teacher will remember to replace them....
>    Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to be
> unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes was
> restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably do
> not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note 
> they
> thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
> minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
>    Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
> principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
> decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
> doing something.
>
>    I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any, or
> even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
> other instances.
>    It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
> one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
> schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)
>
>    But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content 
> and
> declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
> another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
> member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
>    Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
> group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything 
> may
> have happened to break the chain of announcement.
>
>    Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best done
> in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really were 
> or
> were not sent home?
>
>    PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
> paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel pleased
> when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that 
> much,
> but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does 
> it,
> than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next option
> is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them 
> even
> easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.
>
>    Kristy
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From gritton.family at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 08:34:43 2010
From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:34:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C848DCF3.17458%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <935260631.7534791277393683849.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Thanks, Kristy, for reminding everyone that things happen to notes (even if I check the backpack quickly, some days the papers already seem to be disintegrating at the bottom of the bag--alright, it's not quite that bad, but I've found some rather folded up pieces before). :-) 

For our family, I know that I saw at least one or two notes come home, and I have kids in three different schools. I'm pretty sure the schools that I got them from were Dilley and Echo Shaw, while I'm not sure I received one from NAMS, but might have. I also saw the notice at the top of the FGSD webpage around the same time as the messages slowly move towards the bottom of the page as new messages are posted there, so for at least a week or so, it was the first item listed. 

I still am not sure that this is a good idea, though I do like the suggestion of having study hall available if they do decide to use it, but I also think that cutting school short by 1/2 hour in the afternoon instead of in the morning might be a better option for working parents. 

Cindy 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kristy Gravlin " < hannah @ teleport .com> 
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" < grovenet @ rdrop .com> 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59:15 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [ Grovenet ] FGSD "late start" 




Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools did 
not send out the note about the proposed change? 

I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice... 
and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!" 
What happened? 
Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never look 
at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year. 
Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them will 
say something s/he doesn't want parents to know. 
Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it 
there on the floor. 
Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane 
'contest' on the way home. 
Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a friend. 
Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters into 
the mail box of each child has quite a time with one-to-one-correspondence 
and so some of the kids did get it, some did not. 
Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were blank 
and whoever was mailing didn't notice that. 
The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers 
long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so 
s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going to 
the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment. 
Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until 
one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly it 
was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the 
teacher will remember to replace them.... 
Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to be 
unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes was 
restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably do 
not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note they 
thought was being planned. But those principals will change their 
minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be. 
Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all 
principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this 
decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be 
doing something. 

I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any, or 
even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in 
other instances. 
It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted 
one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all 
schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???) 

But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content and 
declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent, 
another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board 
member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way. 
Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any 
group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything may 
have happened to break the chain of announcement. 

Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best done 
in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really were or 
were not sent home? 

PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of 
paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel pleased 
when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that much, 
but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does it, 
than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next option 
is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them even 
easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win. 

Kristy 




_______________________________________________ 
GroveNet mailing list 
GroveNet @ rdrop .com 
http :// www . rdrop .com/mailman/ listinfo / grovenet 

From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 08:43:27 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:43:27 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AF2D6470-928F-4C0E-8DB0-F04800DF276C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <C848E74F.1745F%hannah@teleport.com>



Walt:
> Basically what  
> they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day for
> already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss ways of
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others.

You folks may be ready to hit the delete button by now...but you can tell
that this is one place where I have some experience, and the words insist on
bursting out of my fingers.

Walt may be right. It's happened far too often. I must admit that I was
thinking of the situation at my school where, nearly always, such a
long-term plan (i.e., not one or two meetings) was "what will we teach and
how will we work together to do our best job?"

On the other hand, read this part of Walt's statement again:
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others

The tough thing here is that his statement is the fact of the matter.
How WILL they take too many students (ALL of whom have different
requirements than others) and do what should be done by using fewer staff
members, fewer materials, fewer opportunities, and great expectations from
all concerned...the board, the parents, and (the most likely to be driven to
perfection)...themselves? My personal opinion is that they would be best
served to work as teams, creating experiences that compliment the required
learning, and sharing the workload so that each teacher doesn't have to
invent all four wheels of the vehicle. (And that, too, sounds much easier in
print than it is in fact.)

We should all, in my opinion, send them energizing, and patient, and
peaceful, thoughts at every opportunity.

Kristy




From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 09:20:52 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:20:52 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <5ECD63979E064B6985416F2FC9193427@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <C848F014.17463%hannah@teleport.com>




On 6/24/10 10:32 AM, "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net> wrote:

> Hi Kristy,
> 
> I don't believe anyone from Tom McCall received a notice and this population
> consists of all the 5th and 6th graders in the district.  If I'm wrong and
> anyone from Tom McCall received one, I'd like to know.
And if they did not send them, why not? An honest answer to that would have
a big effect on other thoughts we all may have.
 
> From someone who has spent a lot of time in businesses and have heard those
> same excuses, "I never heard that", "nobody told me", and "how was I
> supposed to know", communication is a difficult thing and doubly difficult
> when working with the general public.  BUT, in this case the district
    MAY NOT HAVE MADE or at least Tom McCall School...I thought some schools
did send notes...is
           this the District?s fault? or the School?s fault? or a difference
in what will be done? or what?
> [[did not make]] an adequate attempt to notify parents and families.  The
> information about this "late start" is buried at the bottom of the website
 not adequate  ...  was there any ?good? reason why?
> and many of their other avenues of communication were not used.  Now the
> bond measure has certainly received a lot more press and won't affect
> families for many months, but this is a change which will affect them in
> less than 3 months and I don't think it's been very well planned.
     I?m not in FGSD, and so I missed when it is that the bond measure takes
effect. Also, while I?m asking, what will it do for the District.?

> If the planning for implementing this is so poorly done, it doesn't engender
> any confidence that the 1/2 hour every week will be better utilized.  And
> even if they spend the 1/2 hour planning, does the district have the
> resources to implement those plans and how are they going to measure the
> effectivity?
        All good questions.  The typical situation is that no, they don?t
have enough resources, and some of the very most important skills are VERY
difficult to test. One thing that always seemed to be good for my kids was
?What do you do when ______ happens?? You can teach that...discussions on
what to do if you see the house is on fire, for example. You can read
stories about it. You can draw pictures about it. You can question the child
for the ?right? answers. (I did well in school as a child because I could
always tell the teacher what she had told me to ?know.? I had a lot more
trouble when suddenly college teachers thought I should have an idea of why?
what next? what if it isn?t exactly that way? etc. But that?s a different
issue.)

But it is the important issue. I?ll never know whether Johnnie got the
?learning? intended...unless his house burns down and he rescues his family.
Not a good way to test.

Anyway I agree that it is more than reading these words aloud. Or adding 3
and 2 and getting the right answer. It?s the way you can use that
info...which will also be based on the ability levels of the child involved.
That will vary greatly with both their ability and their background. And
will be multiplied by 25 or 30 depending on the number of kids in the room.
And will be effected by the variance in how well they read as compared to
their math skills, as compared to their creativity level as compared to...
well you get the idea. Many teachers wish they had a method to prove that
they are doing well. Even if you feel that you are doing well...if you
cannot prove it on the state test, it is not ?enough? somehow. No matter how
poorly the test approaches (or ignores) the particular lesson

Kristy
> marian
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Kristy Gravlin" <hannah at teleport.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59 AM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools did
>> not send out the note about the proposed change?
>> 
>>  I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
>> and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
>>    What happened?
>>    Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never look
>> at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
>>    Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them will
>> say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
>>    Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
>> there on the floor.
>>    Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
>> 'contest' on the way home.
>>    Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a friend.
>>    Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters
>> into
>> the mail box of each child has quite a time with one-to-one-correspondence
>> and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
>>    Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were
>> blank
>> and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
>>    The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
>> long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
>> s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going to
>> the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
>>    Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
>> one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly it
>> was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
>> teacher will remember to replace them....
>>    Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to be
>> unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes was
>> restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably do
>> not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note
>> they
>> thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
>> minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
>>    Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
>> principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
>> decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
>> doing something.
>> 
>>    I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any, or
>> even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
>> other instances.
>>    It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
>> one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
>> schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)
>> 
>>    But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content
>> and
>> declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
>> another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
>> member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
>>    Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
>> group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything
>> may
>> have happened to break the chain of announcement.
>> 
>>    Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best done
>> in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really were
>> or
>> were not sent home?
>> 
>>    PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
>> paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel pleased
>> when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that
>> much,
>> but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does
>> it,
>> than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next option
>> is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them
>> even
>> easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.
>> 
>>    Kristy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From rab at jurislex.com  Thu Jun 24 09:25:05 2010
From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:25:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
Message-ID: <4C2386E1.9020805@jurislex.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100624/1b742152/attachment.html 

From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 09:51:27 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:51:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <935260631.7534791277393683849.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <935260631.7534791277393683849.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4B419E4709A74A0F9B49E045963C66E9@JeffVAIO>

It appears the K-4 elementary schools were more diligent in sending home 
notification than Tom McCall (5th and 6th graders) and Neil Armstrong (7th & 
8th graders).  Perhaps the district assumes, kids older than 10 should be 
able to get themselves to school and families aren't affected?

Unfortunately, I don't always check the school website and the only time I 
saw the notice was after another parent mentioned it to me and I found the 
info at the bottom of the district website.

As far as the time goes, I am more infuriated that more class time is being 
cut.  Our school day/year is already too short - my daughter, a 5th grader 
had 164-1/2 days scheduled to attend.  I know, because I just sat down and 
counted the number of days, and it doesn't include any snow days we had last 
year.

Number of school days per week were:
3,5,5,5,4,5,4,3,5,4,5,2,5,5,4,5,5,4,4,5,5,4,5,5,4,3,5,5,5,5,4,5,5,5,5,4,3-1/2.
To summarize, there were 15 weeks with 4 or fewer days, and 22 weeks of 5 
days.  And I'm fairly certain there will be an additional 8 days cut next 
year, bringing our school year down to less than 157 days.  As a matter of 
perspective, I was educated in upstate New York in the 60's and 70's and our 
school year was between 205 and 210 days depending on the number of snow 
days.  If it fell below 205, days were added to the end of the year.

Perhaps students might be more successful if they spent more time in the 
school.  Teachers would also have a better chance of fulfilling their 
professional obligation of teaching our students (reflected in test scores), 
if they also spent more time at school.

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: <gritton.family at comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:34 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"

> Thanks, Kristy, for reminding everyone that things happen to notes (even 
> if I check the backpack quickly, some days the papers already seem to be 
> disintegrating at the bottom of the bag--alright, it's not quite that bad, 
> but I've found some rather folded up pieces before). :-)
>
> For our family, I know that I saw at least one or two notes come home, and 
> I have kids in three different schools. I'm pretty sure the schools that I 
> got them from were Dilley and Echo Shaw, while I'm not sure I received one 
> from NAMS, but might have. I also saw the notice at the top of the FGSD 
> webpage around the same time as the messages slowly move towards the 
> bottom of the page as new messages are posted there, so for at least a 
> week or so, it was the first item listed.
>
> I still am not sure that this is a good idea, though I do like the 
> suggestion of having study hall available if they do decide to use it, but 
> I also think that cutting school short by 1/2 hour in the afternoon 
> instead of in the morning might be a better option for working parents.
>
> Cindy
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kristy Gravlin " < hannah @ teleport .com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" < grovenet @ rdrop .com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59:15 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [ Grovenet ] FGSD "late start"
>
>
>
>
> Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools did
> not send out the note about the proposed change?
>
> I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
> and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
> What happened?
> Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never look
> at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
> Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them will
> say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
> Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
> there on the floor.
> Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
> 'contest' on the way home.
> Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a friend.
> Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters into
> the mail box of each child has quite a time with one-to-one-correspondence
> and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
> Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were blank
> and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
> The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
> long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
> s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going to
> the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
> Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
> one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly it
> was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
> teacher will remember to replace them....
> Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to be
> unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes was
> restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably do
> not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note 
> they
> thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
> minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
> Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
> principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
> decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
> doing something.
>
> I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any, or
> even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
> other instances.
> It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
> one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
> schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)
>
> But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content and
> declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
> another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
> member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
> Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
> group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything 
> may
> have happened to break the chain of announcement.
>
> Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best done
> in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really were 
> or
> were not sent home?
>
> PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
> paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel pleased
> when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that 
> much,
> but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does 
> it,
> than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next option
> is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them 
> even
> easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.
>
> Kristy
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet @ rdrop .com
> http :// www . rdrop .com/mailman/ listinfo / grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 


From debbratland at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 09:54:10 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:54:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C848F014.17463%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <5ECD63979E064B6985416F2FC9193427@JeffVAIO>	<C848F014.17463%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinrJQrs7YNNWvF7I9JD_xh4z-T-piNXVoHBc2na@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kristy -

Just a brief note about notice - my children go to the middle school and we
received several letters during the year about other topics, including
problems with cell phone use, test week scheduling, and 8th grade
celebration - which topic was also followed up with a postcard.

We also received several robocalls during the year about various subjects.
(I love the robocall option.  Cheap and effective.)

You were right to remind me that it's more than the cost of paper - but if
the district seriously wanted input from families, it definitely had the
responsibility of ensuring that every family in the district received
notice.

When the idea of starting 1 hour late was floated about 5 years ago,
everyone got a full-paged letter.  The proposal blew up in the district's
face, as people responded very negatively.  It's even sort of a running
district joke.  I wonder if the negative reaction from five year ago has
anything to do with leaking out this information this time ... And you
mentioned 1/4 sheets - interesting, because one of the elemtary schools sent
home 1/3 sheets, and one sent home 1/2 sheets.

Thanks for your perspective.  I've enjoyed reading your responses.

Deb Bratland

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On 6/24/10 10:32 AM, "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi Kristy,
> >
> > I don't believe anyone from Tom McCall received a notice and this
> population
> > consists of all the 5th and 6th graders in the district.  If I'm wrong
> and
> > anyone from Tom McCall received one, I'd like to know.
> And if they did not send them, why not? An honest answer to that would have
> a big effect on other thoughts we all may have.
>
> > From someone who has spent a lot of time in businesses and have heard
> those
> > same excuses, "I never heard that", "nobody told me", and "how was I
> > supposed to know", communication is a difficult thing and doubly
> difficult
> > when working with the general public.  BUT, in this case the district
>    MAY NOT HAVE MADE or at least Tom McCall School...I thought some schools
> did send notes...is
>           this the District?s fault? or the School?s fault? or a difference
> in what will be done? or what?
> > [[did not make]] an adequate attempt to notify parents and families.  The
> > information about this "late start" is buried at the bottom of the
> website
>  not adequate  ...  was there any ?good? reason why?
> > and many of their other avenues of communication were not used.  Now the
> > bond measure has certainly received a lot more press and won't affect
> > families for many months, but this is a change which will affect them in
> > less than 3 months and I don't think it's been very well planned.
>     I?m not in FGSD, and so I missed when it is that the bond measure takes
> effect. Also, while I?m asking, what will it do for the District.?
>
> > If the planning for implementing this is so poorly done, it doesn't
> engender
> > any confidence that the 1/2 hour every week will be better utilized.  And
> > even if they spend the 1/2 hour planning, does the district have the
> > resources to implement those plans and how are they going to measure the
> > effectivity?
>        All good questions.  The typical situation is that no, they don?t
> have enough resources, and some of the very most important skills are VERY
> difficult to test. One thing that always seemed to be good for my kids was
> ?What do you do when ______ happens?? You can teach that...discussions on
> what to do if you see the house is on fire, for example. You can read
> stories about it. You can draw pictures about it. You can question the
> child
> for the ?right? answers. (I did well in school as a child because I could
> always tell the teacher what she had told me to ?know.? I had a lot more
> trouble when suddenly college teachers thought I should have an idea of
> why?
> what next? what if it isn?t exactly that way? etc. But that?s a different
> issue.)
>
> But it is the important issue. I?ll never know whether Johnnie got the
> ?learning? intended...unless his house burns down and he rescues his
> family.
> Not a good way to test.
>
> Anyway I agree that it is more than reading these words aloud. Or adding 3
> and 2 and getting the right answer. It?s the way you can use that
> info...which will also be based on the ability levels of the child
> involved.
> That will vary greatly with both their ability and their background. And
> will be multiplied by 25 or 30 depending on the number of kids in the room.
> And will be effected by the variance in how well they read as compared to
> their math skills, as compared to their creativity level as compared to...
> well you get the idea. Many teachers wish they had a method to prove that
> they are doing well. Even if you feel that you are doing well...if you
> cannot prove it on the state test, it is not ?enough? somehow. No matter
> how
> poorly the test approaches (or ignores) the particular lesson
>
> Kristy
>  > marian
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Kristy Gravlin" <hannah at teleport.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59 AM
> > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools
> did
> >> not send out the note about the proposed change?
> >>
> >>  I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
> >> and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
> >>    What happened?
> >>    Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never
> look
> >> at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
> >>    Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them
> will
> >> say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
> >>    Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
> >> there on the floor.
> >>    Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
> >> 'contest' on the way home.
> >>    Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a
> friend.
> >>    Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters
> >> into
> >> the mail box of each child has quite a time with
> one-to-one-correspondence
> >> and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
> >>    Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were
> >> blank
> >> and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
> >>    The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
> >> long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
> >> s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going
> to
> >> the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
> >>    Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
> >> one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly
> it
> >> was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
> >> teacher will remember to replace them....
> >>    Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to
> be
> >> unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes
> was
> >> restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably
> do
> >> not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note
> >> they
> >> thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
> >> minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
> >>    Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
> >> principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
> >> decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
> >> doing something.
> >>
> >>    I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any,
> or
> >> even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
> >> other instances.
> >>    It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
> >> one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
> >> schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)
> >>
> >>    But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content
> >> and
> >> declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
> >> another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
> >> member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
> >>    Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
> >> group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything
> >> may
> >> have happened to break the chain of announcement.
> >>
> >>    Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best
> done
> >> in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really
> were
> >> or
> >> were not sent home?
> >>
> >>    PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
> >> paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel
> pleased
> >> when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that
> >> much,
> >> but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does
> >> it,
> >> than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next
> option
> >> is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them
> >> even
> >> easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.
> >>
> >>    Kristy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Jun 24 10:02:13 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:02:13 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Over my years at Pacific U. I helped several TAG students with various projects...and tried to promote further collaborations between the college and the district during my ten years on the school board.  What is the status of that relationship?  It's a great resource...just sitting there.

Mike



-----Original Message-----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: June 24, 2010 10:05 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"


That last bit is very well put, Deb!
As tor TAG students being chronically "intellectually malnourished,"
however, I believe that IS something the school can do something
about-- not by filling the TAG student's day with rote-work and
undemanding pabulum, but by providing wider resources, and letting
the TAG students go after them on their own. This does not need to
cost much money. As an example, my own little grade school, when i
was growing up (way back in the Old Stone Age), had mini-libraries
for every classroom. This was a little anteroom full of books from
many sources-- yard sales, citizen donations, etc.-- and of many
different levels. One third-grade student could read Richard
Halliburton or Benvenutio Celllini wile another was reading Dr.
Suess.  Some of those books were almost 50 years old, but there was
nothing else wrong with them-- and kids were able to choose their own
level of reading! Similarly, alerting TAG students (and their
parents) to cultural or intellectual opportunities (theatrical
events, major museum exhibits, etc). would at least offer them a
chance to explore on their own or as a family, without involving the
school.
WW
>
> As to whether or not the late start will bring about the hoped-for
> results,
> one would hope that the district would see this as a trial run, with
> measurable goals in place.  If the district wants to be "data-driven"
> (that's actually kind of scarey to me, but I probably just don't
> understand
> it ...), then it needs to hold itself to its own standards, and
> tell us what
> the data should show as a result of the late start.  I wonder though,
> if once implemented, it will become just a fact of life that will
> go on ad
> infinitum, regardless of results or lack thereof, or unintended
> consequences.
>
> Deb
WW
>
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jamsm at aol.com  Thu Jun 24 10:07:45 2010
From: jamsm at aol.com (jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:07:45 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>


 
 

I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'

http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell



 He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!

 Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your own medicine.] 

Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a young age. 

Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).

In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]

 


 The Grouch


 

 




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:



> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing

> out good topics of discussion.









> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.

>



Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,

please!



jimz



PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?







>

> _______________________________________________

> GroveNet mailing list

> GroveNet at rdrop.com

> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

>

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


 

From edavie at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 10:38:46 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:38:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FBC45D29FB634D46911A916567BE203F@EdDaviePC>

Just an opinion, like yours!
Ed




From: jamsm at aol.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:07 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry



 
 

I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'

http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell



 He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!

 Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your own medicine.] 

Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a young age. 

Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).

In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]

 


 The Grouch


 

 




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:



> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing

> out good topics of discussion.









> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.

>



Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,

please!



jimz



PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?







>

> _______________________________________________

> GroveNet mailing list

> GroveNet at rdrop.com

> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

>

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 11:21:15 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:21:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <DEBE35AA-9187-4047-9204-C531F230036E@verizon.net>

Welcome back jamsm.

Katie

On Jun 24, 2010, at 10:07 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
>
> I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of  
> the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'
>
> http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell
>
>
>
>  He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose  
> colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the  
> world through!
>
>  Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what  
> is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am  
> sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.   
> Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does  
> not make it truth.  Anyone can create a web page and claim facts -  
> yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you  
> put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media  
> wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and  
> more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called  
> names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to  
> sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use  
> your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell  
> foul!  [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give  
> you back some of your own medicine.]
>
> Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind  
> left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this  
> forum as many  were obviously brought up  (many are probably from  
> extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a  
> young age.
>
> Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points  
> that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call  
> him racist, fear mongering etc  because he does not see the world  
> through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).
>
> In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post  
> was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my  
> whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a  
> computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover  
> from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]
>
>
>
>
>  The Grouch
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list  
> <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore  
> drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for  
>> pointing
>
>> out good topics of discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on  
>>> this list.
>
>>
>
>
>
> Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?   
> Oh,
>
> please!
>
>
>
> jimz
>
>
>
> PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> GroveNet mailing list
>
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 11:31:17 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:31:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <FBC45D29FB634D46911A916567BE203F@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <331096733.7526511277404277705.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

We jumped the discussion from the judge who overuled the moritoriam on deep drilling projects, to the professor who issued more than just opinions, but also facts shared by millions of intelligent people who listen to what the president says, compares that to what he does, and are able to add 2 plus 2 and come up with the correct answer. The correct answer is the man is a menace to all Americans, and to the leaders of other countries he takes an interest in, and whome refuse to take orders from him.

Be your own person. Do not be an apologist for this president, that only ecourgages him to do worse.

As for the oil thing, I agree that deep drilling should stop until reliable safety procedures and equipment are adopted and deployed. I never baught into the BOP failure not being preventable. I did not buy into the statement that a hydraulic leak alone caused the problem. Because the back up systems have separate accumulators of hydraulic fluid- - -if the primary failed because of a hydraulic leak, the two redundant backups with redundant accumulators should have worked. Million to one chance. Hard to believe because failure should not be an option.

Said the BOP preventer was too small. Yet BOPs are designed for well casings of a certain diameter, so a BOP three stories tall could be considered too small? 

It seems that this BOP had at some point been altered, by whom not stated, and the control and schematics documentation given to the engineers did not reflect those changes. Responsible parties were not named.

don

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:38:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry

Just an opinion, like yours!
Ed




From: jamsm at aol.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:07 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry



 
 

I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'

http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell



 He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!

 Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your own medicine.] 

Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a young age. 

Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).

In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]

 


 The Grouch


 

 




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:



> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing

> out good topics of discussion.









> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.

>



Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,

please!



jimz



PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?







>

> _______________________________________________

> GroveNet mailing list

> GroveNet at rdrop.com

> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

>

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 11:55:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:55:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C848E74F.1745F%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <50444173.7535581277405704385.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I am all into supporting this thread, but since my youngest daughter graduated from Forest Grove High School, I have not been exposed to school problems. I do recognize that they exist and that hard decisions must be made. So I salute you all for participating in school activities.

don

----- Original Message -----
From: Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:43:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"



Walt:
> Basically what  
> they're saying is that they are going to take an hour a day for
> already overloaded teachers to form committees and discuss ways of
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others.

You folks may be ready to hit the delete button by now...but you can tell
that this is one place where I have some experience, and the words insist on
bursting out of my fingers.

Walt may be right. It's happened far too often. I must admit that I was
thinking of the situation at my school where, nearly always, such a
long-term plan (i.e., not one or two meetings) was "what will we teach and
how will we work together to do our best job?"

On the other hand, read this part of Walt's statement again:
> coping with the fact that they have too few resources to serve too
> many students, some of whom have different requirements than others

The tough thing here is that his statement is the fact of the matter.
How WILL they take too many students (ALL of whom have different
requirements than others) and do what should be done by using fewer staff
members, fewer materials, fewer opportunities, and great expectations from
all concerned...the board, the parents, and (the most likely to be driven to
perfection)...themselves? My personal opinion is that they would be best
served to work as teams, creating experiences that compliment the required
learning, and sharing the workload so that each teacher doesn't have to
invent all four wheels of the vehicle. (And that, too, sounds much easier in
print than it is in fact.)

We should all, in my opinion, send them energizing, and patient, and
peaceful, thoughts at every opportunity.

Kristy



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 12:01:24 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:01:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <7b21242591f0671ce1cc66cd6da69ccb.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
Message-ID: <410519097.7538051277406084054.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Good warning. I got exposed to that innocent looking green stuff in Mexican Restaurants.

Thanks again, Ill try it.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: jawelch at coho.net
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:30:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise






And, yes,
they do have a belly dancer (on Friday evenings).? We love the food and
try to make it in once a week.? Watch out for the green contiment they
serve - it is liquid fire.
> Right on Main Street, a couple
of doors south from Pizza Schmizza.
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:32
AM, donkelly wrote:
> 
>> How to get there anyone?
>>
>> Chuck, happy to hear Rhonda's recovery is going
well.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------Original Message-------
>>
>>
From: Walt Wentz
>> Date:
06/23/10 23:01:57
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
>>
>> Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the
next,
>> but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some
nights.
>> WW
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David
Morelli wrote:
>>
>>> Nice to see the two of you
tonight.
>>>
>>> Before Izgara, it was the
Internet Cafe as noted, and before that
>>> it was Esoteric
Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was
>>> remodeled.  I
believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along
>>>
there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2010,
at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>>>
>>>> Took
advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
>>>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's
Market.
>>>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is
healing nicely.  We both
>>>> enjoyed the sunshine and
just getting out of the house.  Thanks
>>>> for all the
well wishes. ...
>>>
>>>> So - we wandered
into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
>>>>
surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?
>>>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food
was
>>>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably
priced, and GREAT
>>>> service.  Will definitely come
back again.  What a really nice
>>>> surprise to discover
a hidden little gem like this right in your
>>>> own back
yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>>>
>>>> chuck underwood
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>
GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/
>>
grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________
>> __________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>>
GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet
mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 12:19:43 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <3180035A-0E16-4FC4-AC60-8CDD8255C413@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <2141014567.7544131277407183940.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Thanks Walt. I'll wander in.

don
----- Original Message -----
From: Walt Wentz <waltw at teleport.com>
To: donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net>, Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:25:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise

Right on Main Street, a couple of doors south from Pizza Schmizza.
On Jun 24, 2010, at 12:32 AM, donkelly wrote:

> How to get there anyone?
>
> Chuck, happy to hear Rhonda's recovery is going well.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Walt Wentz
> Date: 06/23/10 23:01:57
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
>
> Their hummus is homemade, varies slightly from one day to the next,
> but is delicious. They have a belly dancer some nights.
> WW
> On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> Nice to see the two of you tonight.
>>
>> Before Izgara, it was the Internet Cafe as noted, and before that
>> it was Esoteric Stuff/Diversity Corp.  Before that, it was
>> remodeled.  I believe the Frosts had a skate shop somewhere along
>> there too.  Way back it was a Broderson's.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:36 PM, chuck wrote:
>>
>>> Took advantage of the nice weather tonight, (and the fact that we
>>> weren't in a Hospital) and headed down to the Farmer's Market.
>>> Rhonda is doing wonderful BTW, and is healing nicely.  We both
>>> enjoyed the sunshine and just getting out of the house.  Thanks
>>> for all the well wishes. ...
>>
>>> So - we wandered into Izgaras.  All I can say is - what a NICE
>>> surprise.  Help me out here - wasn't this the old Signmeisters?
>>> Or was it the Internet Cafe?  In any case - the food was
>>> WONDERFUL.  Lots of options, very reasonably priced, and GREAT
>>> service.  Will definitely come back again.  What a really nice
>>> surprise to discover a hidden little gem like this right in your
>>> own back yard.  Way to go Izgaras.  Hope you do well.
>>>
>>> chuck underwood
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<stampa_girl_line_en.gif>_____________________________________ 
> __________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 12:27:05 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:27:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <acf0efe2681539a62c4d3330ee2202a0.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
Message-ID: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Thank you all. I will try to avoid guessing what news people could benefit just from knowing, agree or not, and to avoid news that some people just don't want to hear no matter how factual.

I do respect the view of everyone, agree or not, while being quick to disagree with something stated as fact, yet does not rise up to fact.

don

----- Original Message -----
From: jawelch at coho.net
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:09:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry





Nope, probably
just jerking our collective chains (I hope).
> You must be
blind!
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
From: Steve
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:10
PM
> To: ron at ronhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
>
offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
> 
> 
> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for
pointing
> out good topics of discussion. Thank you for good posts
without all the
> bigotry of the left on this list.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet
mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing
list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 24 12:37:44 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:37:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Really Nice Surprise
In-Reply-To: <410519097.7538051277406084054.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <7b21242591f0671ce1cc66cd6da69ccb.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>
	<410519097.7538051277406084054.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000f01cb13d4$baf27f00$30d77d00$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Good warning. I got exposed to that innocent looking
> green stuff in Mexican Restaurants.
> 
> Thanks again, Ill try it.

It's not the same thing you've found in Mexican restaurants.  Rather, it's some sort of chutney with jalapeno, perhaps mint, and a few other things they won't disclose.

I much prefer it to most any other hot "thing" I've found in other restaurants.  I nearly always consume however much they give me, it's that good.

Jeff




From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 13:29:52 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:29:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
 drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikl4BplwJiNCNeAfy7nKaGFw5XFq3TN72mnk_ZY@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, <jamsm at aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the
> Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'
>
> http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell
>

Hey, first of all, I've never referred to the President as a beloved
*Savior*. He's human. I would never attach such a lofty word to anyone who
was human. We're all too imperfect for that. And because no one is perfect,
the President is not perfect. I believe he's doing a great job (tho I have
not approved of all of his decisions - and to be honest I've been downright
disappointed in some of them, but, on the whole I think he's doing a
remarkable job during some of the most difficult times any president has
ever faced), That being said, I don't have to agree with him 100% to support
his agenda.

I accepted your dare and watched the video you referenced above, and
although the gentle, aging professor spoke eloquently about his views of the
President's foreign policy, it is alas, only his opinion. Although the
"Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard PhD credentials gives him
credibility, it does not make him right. However learned, it is still his
opinion (one I don't happen to agree with). The point I want to make here is
that there are highly credible folks on both sides of these political
issues. It all gets down to who you want to believe. Who you trust. As they
say, "Politics is politics."

  He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored
> glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!
>

I know you're the Grouch, but "blinded liberal lefties"? Ouch! BTW: My
glasses are untinted. Where ever do you get the idea that liberals wear rose
colored glasses? After all, we're the ones raising the issues that the world
IS NOT going well. You know, the issues the right accuses us of whining
about. Like war and poverty, racial equality, justice for all, respect for
the environment, global warming, those sorts of things. If you know of a
place I can buy a pair of rose colored glasses, let me know, because the
view I see every morning on the news is pretty dark.

>
>  Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is
> actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there
> are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can
> find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can
> create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the
> arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what
> the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct
> mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of,
> called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to
> sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your
> tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes,
> I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your
> own medicine.]
>

Oh, before I get any further, I want to say thank you for joining the
debate, be you for or against my own opinions, it's nice to have new voices
enter the fray (like mine). Now, back to the discussion. You question the
validity of the links that often accompany rebuttals to don's posts, and
you're correct, just because something is written doesn't make it right. An
article or opinion does lose its credibility however, when it's proven to be
false. If you've ever followed the links that Jeff and David provide, you'll
note that they are from sources of proven credibility. Jeff does an
excellent job of pointing out where the lines of truth and lies fall. And he
doesn't use conjecture or personal opinions to win his arguments, he uses
facts, something that is ofttimes missing in the links or statements that
don supplies.

>
> Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they
> can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were
> obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to
> believe in the liberal teachings at a young age.
>

You know, I feel the same way about trying to 'educate'  (and I'm just
throwing in the next work for fun,) the cross-eyed, right. And whoa, making
such a blanket statement about many of the lefties on the list being from
"extremist CA" is a stretch. You're not improving your own credibility with
that *bigoted* statement. I come from the mid-west. There are liberals there
too. And I was raised in a conservative upbringing. I didn't become a
liberal until I was in college. Ideological teachings at an early age aren't
the only factors that help form one's belief system.

BTW: since the word bigot has been tossed around quite a bit, I thought I'd
include some background on the word. If you read into it, we're all bigoted
in our own ways. It's the degree of our bigotry that defines us.


*big?ot * [image: bigot
pronunciation]<http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/ahd4WAV/B0242400/bigot>
 (b?g'?t)
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or
politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]

*Word History *: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might
think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss
the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase *bi got, * his
borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression *by God. *
 Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that *bigot *
was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a
religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was
used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay
sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French *bigot * meant "an
excessively devoted or hypocritical person." *Bigot * is first recorded in
English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."


> Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so
> many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear
> mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose
> colored glasses (the true bigots).
>

Using the definition of bigot above, define *true bigot* and why you don't
belong in that category.

jimz



>
> In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was
> disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point
> was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that
> cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure,
> data restoration.]
>
>
>
>
>  The Grouch
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <
> grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
> drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing
>
> > out good topics of discussion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this
> list.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,
>
> please!
>
>
>
> jimz
>
>
>
> PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > GroveNet mailing list
>
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> GroveNet mailing list
>
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jamsm at aol.com  Thu Jun 24 13:34:53 2010
From: jamsm at aol.com (jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:34:53 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>


 

A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets a college student

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM

From steelem at pacificu.edu  Thu Jun 24 14:12:27 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:12:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

Sad day for G-net.

:-(



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Sent: June 24, 2010 11:25 AM
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .




From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 24 14:37:33 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:37:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cracks Show BP Was Battling Gulf Well as Early as
	February
Message-ID: <004d01cb13e5$75df0620$619d1260$@com>

Cracks Show BP Was Battling Gulf Well as Early as February
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-17/bp-struggled-with-cracks-in-gulf-we
ll-as-early-as-february-documents-show.html
June 17, 2010 by Alison Fitzgerald and Joe Carroll

BP <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BP%2F:LN>  Plc was struggling
to seal cracks in its Macondo well as far back as February, more than two
months before an explosion killed 11 and spewed oil into the Gulf of Mexico.


It took 10 days to plug the first cracks, according to reports BP filed with
the Minerals Management <http://www.mms.gov/>  Service that were later
delivered to congressional investigators. Cracks in the surrounding rock
continued to complicate the drilling operation during the ensuing weeks.
Left unsealed, they can allow explosive natural gas to rush up the shaft. 

"Once they realized they had oil down there, all the decisions they made
were designed to get that oil at the lowest cost," said Peter Galvin of the
Center for Biological Diversity,
<http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/biodiversity2.html
>  which has been working with congressional investigators probing the
disaster. "It's been a doomed voyage from the beginning." 

BP didn't respond to calls and e-mails seeking comment. The company's shares
rose 22 pence to 359 pence today in London after the company struck a deal
with the Obama administration yesterday to establish a $20 billion fund to
pay cleanup costs and compensation. BP has lost 45 percent of its market
value since the catastrophe. 

On Feb. 13, BP <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BP%2F:LN>  told
the minerals service it was trying to seal cracks in the well about 40 miles
(64 kilometers) off the Louisiana coast, drilling documents obtained by
Bloomberg show. Investigators are still trying to determine whether the
fissures played a role in the disaster. 

'Cement Squeeze' 

The company attempted a "cement squeeze," which involves pumping cement to
seal the fissures, according to a well activity report. Over the following
week the company made repeated attempts to plug cracks that were draining
expensive drilling fluid, known as "mud," into the surrounding rocks. 

BP <http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BP%2F:LN>  used three
different substances to plug the holes before succeeding, the documents
show. 

"Most of the time you do a squeeze and then let it dry and you're done,"
said John Wang, an assistant professor of petroleum and natural gas
engineering at Penn State in University Park, Pennsylvania. "It dries within
a few hours." 

Repeated squeeze attempts are unusual and may indicate rig workers are using
the wrong kind of cement, Wang said. 

Grappling Engineers 

BP Chief Executive Officer Tony Hayward and other top executives were
ignorant of the difficulties the company's engineers were grappling with in
the well before the explosion, U.S. Representative Henry Waxman, chairman of
the House Energy and Commerce Committee, said today during a hearing in
Washington. 

"We could find no evidence that you paid any attention to the tremendous
risk BP was taking," Waxman said as Hayward waited to testify. "There is not
a single e-mail or document that you paid the slightest attention to the
dangers at this well." 

BP Chief Operating Officer Doug Suttles and exploration chief Andy Inglis
"were apparently oblivious to what was happening," said Waxman, a California
Democrat. "BP's corporate complacency is astonishing." 

In early March, BP told the minerals agency the company was having trouble
maintaining control of surging natural gas, according to e-mails released
May 30 by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which is investigating
the spill. 

Gas Surges 

While gas surges are common in oil drilling, companies have abandoned wells
if they determine the risk is too high. When a Gulf well known as Blackbeard
threatened to blow out in 2006, Exxon Mobil Corp.
<http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=XOM:US>  shut the project down. 

"We don't proceed if we cannot do so safely," Exxon Chief Executive Officer
Rex Tillerson
<http://search.bloomberg.com/search?site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=
wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&partialfi
elds=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&sort=date:D:S:d1&lr=-lang_ja&q=Rex%20Tillerson>  told a
House Energy and Commerce committee panel on June 15. 

On March 10, BP executive Scherie Douglas e-mailed Frank Patton, the mineral
service's drilling engineer for the New Orleans district, telling him:
"We're in the midst of a well control situation." 

The incident was a "showstopper," said Robert Bea
<http://search.bloomberg.com/search?site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=
wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&partialfi
elds=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&sort=date:D:S:d1&lr=-lang_ja&q=Robert%20Bea> , an
engineering professor at the University of California, Berkeley, who has
consulted with the Interior Department on offshore drilling safety. "They
damn near blew up the rig."


From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 24 14:37:33 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:37:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>

> From: jamsm at aol.com
> 
> A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets
> a college student
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM

Actually, he wasn't that friendly and more like man-handled the student who
wanted to shove a camera in his face but not say who he was.  If someone
were to do that to me, I'd probably do what the congressman did.  Still, I
realize as a congressman he ought to be held to a higher level of behavior.
He realized it too and apologized the same day.  Why didn't you bother
posting the fact that he'd apologized?

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/politics/nc-congressman-bob-etheridge-releas
es-statement-of-apology-after-video-shows-confrontation-061410

Jeff



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 14:42:46 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:42:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgaX-nCqn6sXYYV1WFmh9T4_5XRMavHnNgoZBI@mail.gmail.com>

Sad indeed, Mike. And by the tone of his departure, it was mitigated by the
very element I have been trying to warn the list about. Too much of a bad
thing will eventually lead to such casualties. Enough is enough is enough.
Bob was always a mainstay on the list, always interesting, funny, diverse.
His contributions will be sorely missed. Just knowing he was lurking out
there was a comfort. I watched his participation dwindle as his protests
against the barrage of ill-begotten posts by the likes of don and Steve
increased. He did the best he could to remove himself for the direct
onslaught by using the delete key, but even then, as he noted, it was too
much. If there was ever an example of the danger of letting one or a few
individuals control the list, this is it. I'm feeling pretty sad and
disgusted right now.

jimz

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu> wrote:

> Sad day for G-net.
>
> :-(
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Sent: June 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 14:52:10 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:52:10 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <4B419E4709A74A0F9B49E045963C66E9@JeffVAIO>
Message-ID: <C8493DBA.17482%hannah@teleport.com>

Marian wrote about the school year being too short. I was surprised to hear
that she counted 164.5 days (and am assuming she meant the number of days
the school was open and accepting children rather than that her daughter
missed many days for illness.)

As often happens a number of ?required days? immediately popped into my
mind...and then I wondered if that was by Oregon law, or by Illinois law. I
think they are not identical...but they are close...and I think it is either
176 or 180 days. Your count is so much less that I am confused about what I
thought I knew. Of course, it is 13 years since it was of import to me. I
might have forgotten (but I cannot think it is by that much) or the law may
have changed (which also does not seem likely to me.) I?ll see if I can get
a current ruling on that.  You are write that 164 doesn?t seem to be what
would do best by the kids.

There are months where class time is particularly short. I know that
teachers always felt that November was not as might be...and yet what to do
about it? That?s when we did conferences (which we thought were important)
but it required four half-days out of school and an evening too...at least.)
And then there was Veteran?s Day which is a holiday. And then there were two
days off for Thanksgiving. But November seemed to be best for
Conferences...at the end of a grading period and also after we had had time
enough to get to know the children well. (Otherwise it is embarrassing to
have a parent ask about how Johnnie is doing in reading after two weeks of
school...We are still trying to see that order is maintained and names are
learned and workable groups are gathered, etc.) That?s overstating a
bit...but truly it takes a while to get to know whether Johnnie is able,
able but not performing, or not performing because he is not able....and
then parents always want to know what should be done...that takes some time
to determine too. 

Teachers have very little to do with the length of the school year...that
all happens way up the ladder of decision making. I must admit that we do
get almost as excited about ?snow days? or such as the kids. But one must
have some fun and hearing the radio declare ?no school? is one of those kind
of things. (From 5 on, I spent 50 of 51 years in school...snow days are a
gift! 8-))  On the other hand, it also means that the lesson plans are now
?behind? and things must be crammed together somehow so that required things
can get done. We try not to think about that result of snow days.

Whenever I am on this soapbox, I get around too, to the concept that
teaching is not ?factory work.? Some of the rules that sound so good would
work if we had 25 identical children who responded in identical ways to the
lesson. Then tomorrow?s lesson could be given ?just right? as all would be
ready for identical progress. Think instead of a room full of jumping beans
that must be gathered and ?held? while the lesson is given...or a room full
of ?yappy puppies? that you are teaching to ?sit? all at the same time. And
then the experts wonder why we cannot get all 25 to exactly the same point
on November 1...and move them to exactly the same point on June 1. Any
parent who has more than one child, has probably noticed that the kids did
not all crawl on the 210th day of life...nor begin using sentences on the
925th day. Kids are just not identical. Not that this concept really has
much to do with the discussion of year length....hopefully the teaching
staff understands that they are not aiming for a certain number of days.
They are aiming to begin in the fall and end in June...with as much progress
made as the child could possibly accomplish that year given their ages, and
the other things that interrupt. Length of year could be one...or
illness...or emotional trauma...or inborn skill levels...or any number of
things.
Thanks for listening...
Kristy


------ Forwarded Message
From: Marian Cakarnis

As far as the time goes, I am more infuriated that more class time is being
cut.  Our school day/year is already too short - my daughter, a 5th grader
had 164-1/2 days scheduled to attend.  I know, because I just sat down and
counted the number of days, and it doesn't include any snow days we had last
year. Number of school days per week were:
3,5,5,5,4,5,4,3,5,4,5,2,5,5,4,5,5,4,4,5,5,4,5,5,4,3,5,5,5,5,4,5,5,5,5,4,3-1/
2. To summarize, there were 15 weeks with 4 or fewer days, and 22 weeks of 5
days.  And I'm fairly certain there will be an additional 8 days cut next
year, bringing our school year down to less than 157 days.  As a matter of
perspective, I was educated in upstate New York in the 60's and 70's and our
school year was between 205 and 210 days depending on the number of snow
days.  If it fell below 205, days were added to the end of the year. Perhaps
students might be more successful if they spent more time in the school.
Teachers would also have a better chance of fulfilling their professional
obligation of teaching our students (reflected in test scores), if they also
spent more time at school.

------ End of Forwarded Message


From hannah at teleport.com  Thu Jun 24 15:29:51 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:29:51 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinrJQrs7YNNWvF7I9JD_xh4z-T-piNXVoHBc2na@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C849468F.17484%hannah@teleport.com>




On 6/24/10 11:54 AM, "Debra Bratland" <debbratland at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kristy -
> 
> Just a brief note about notice - my children go to the middle school and we
> received several letters during the year about other topics, including
> problems with cell phone use, test week scheduling, and 8th grade
> celebration - which topic was also followed up with a postcard.
It sounds like your school was responding to the needs of both school and
parents in appropriate ways. I know that some do not.
> 
> We also received several robocalls during the year about various subjects.
> (I love the robocall option.  Cheap and effective.)
It is a good system. I'm so old that it didn't exist back then.
> 
> You were right to remind me that it's more than the cost of paper - but if
> the district seriously wanted input from families, it definitely had the
> responsibility of ensuring that every family in the district received
> notice.
Again you are right. I was not meaning to indicate otherwise. I do know that
there are times when things happen...but no one believes that the note gets
lost every time, etc. The school does have that responsibility. And needs to
devise some method of knowing whether or not important notes do get to
parents. Signed returns? (More paperwork...maybe a parent volunteer could
tally tho.) 
 
> When the idea of starting 1 hour late was floated about 5 years ago,
> everyone got a full-paged letter.  The proposal blew up in the district's
> face, as people responded very negatively.  It's even sort of a running
> district joke.  I wonder if the negative reaction from five year ago has
> anything to do with leaking out this information this time ...
I wish I could say that I have never seen such an "end run" to get past
something that didn't go over well the first time. I can say that it was
never high on the teachers' idea of the right thing to do either. It's kind
of like those political things...if it doesn't fly the first time, wait a
bit and then scream louder...wait a bit and then make it sound like everyone
but you likes it. Grrrr.

> And you
> mentioned 1/4 sheets - interesting, because one of the elementary schools sent
> home 1/3 sheets, and one sent home 1/2 sheets.
We were always trying to save money back when I was there. The last years I
taught (was it the last 12? something along that line.) the Board was nice
to us. They had us drop our budget the first year by only 1%. Not very much.

So the next year we lost another 1%...and another and another.

If you were "Mr. School" and receiving a salary of $40,000 at the beginning
of a ten year period...and lost only 1% per year for ten years...you would
be receiving $36,170 by the tenth year. One could look at that as "not much"
difference.  Unfortunately the cost of furnace oil went up every year...as
did paper, and books, and toilet paper...all the things you would use in
your home. There are things that must be obtained every once in a
while...crayons wear out, the copy machine breaks down, puzzles wear out,
etc, etc. And, a little surprise, the cost of such things tended to go up
every year. We got pretty cheap with the ways we figured out to save money.
Sending out a 1/2 sheet is only 1/2 the cost of a whole sheet...and a 1/4
sheet cuts the cost in half again.

We dropped field trips that we had been very happy with because they really
gave the kids an experience that they wouldn't have had...and really needed.
We often took Tri-Met...leaving earlier, getting home later, and spending
less time there to accommodate the bus schedule. If we were waiting on the
corner...and the bus driver decided his bus did not have room for us, he
drove right on by. (Sometimes we were "sure" he just didn't want to deal
with kindergarteners...probably the panic on his face showed it.) The result
was we were at least 20 minutes behind schedule and so the kids got a
shorter time at the museum or zoo or wherever. We knew we were not doing the
best by our kids...but we did not know what to do about it. We were doing
the best that time, money, and staff would allow.

I promise to be quiet for a while. (Not forever...those who know me would
never believe that!)  Kristy


> Thanks for your perspective.  I've enjoyed reading your responses.
> 
> Deb Bratland
> 
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/24/10 10:32 AM, "Marian Cakarnis" <oldredwagon at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Kristy,
>>> 
>>> I don't believe anyone from Tom McCall received a notice and this
>> population
>>> consists of all the 5th and 6th graders in the district.  If I'm wrong
>> and
>>> anyone from Tom McCall received one, I'd like to know.
>> And if they did not send them, why not? An honest answer to that would have
>> a big effect on other thoughts we all may have.
>> 
>>> From someone who has spent a lot of time in businesses and have heard
>> those
>>> same excuses, "I never heard that", "nobody told me", and "how was I
>>> supposed to know", communication is a difficult thing and doubly
>> difficult
>>> when working with the general public.  BUT, in this case the district
>>    MAY NOT HAVE MADE or at least Tom McCall School...I thought some schools
>> did send notes...is
>>           this the District?s fault? or the School?s fault? or a difference
>> in what will be done? or what?
>>> [[did not make]] an adequate attempt to notify parents and families.  The
>>> information about this "late start" is buried at the bottom of the
>> website
>>  not adequate  ...  was there any ?good? reason why?
>>> and many of their other avenues of communication were not used.  Now the
>>> bond measure has certainly received a lot more press and won't affect
>>> families for many months, but this is a change which will affect them in
>>> less than 3 months and I don't think it's been very well planned.
>>     I?m not in FGSD, and so I missed when it is that the bond measure takes
>> effect. Also, while I?m asking, what will it do for the District.?
>> 
>>> If the planning for implementing this is so poorly done, it doesn't
>> engender
>>> any confidence that the 1/2 hour every week will be better utilized.  And
>>> even if they spend the 1/2 hour planning, does the district have the
>>> resources to implement those plans and how are they going to measure the
>>> effectivity?
>>        All good questions.  The typical situation is that no, they don?t
>> have enough resources, and some of the very most important skills are VERY
>> difficult to test. One thing that always seemed to be good for my kids was
>> ?What do you do when ______ happens?? You can teach that...discussions on
>> what to do if you see the house is on fire, for example. You can read
>> stories about it. You can draw pictures about it. You can question the
>> child
>> for the ?right? answers. (I did well in school as a child because I could
>> always tell the teacher what she had told me to ?know.? I had a lot more
>> trouble when suddenly college teachers thought I should have an idea of
>> why?
>> what next? what if it isn?t exactly that way? etc. But that?s a different
>> issue.)
>> 
>> But it is the important issue. I?ll never know whether Johnnie got the
>> ?learning? intended...unless his house burns down and he rescues his
>> family.
>> Not a good way to test.
>> 
>> Anyway I agree that it is more than reading these words aloud. Or adding 3
>> and 2 and getting the right answer. It?s the way you can use that
>> info...which will also be based on the ability levels of the child
>> involved.
>> That will vary greatly with both their ability and their background. And
>> will be multiplied by 25 or 30 depending on the number of kids in the room.
>> And will be effected by the variance in how well they read as compared to
>> their math skills, as compared to their creativity level as compared to...
>> well you get the idea. Many teachers wish they had a method to prove that
>> they are doing well. Even if you feel that you are doing well...if you
>> cannot prove it on the state test, it is not ?enough? somehow. No matter
>> how
>> poorly the test approaches (or ignores) the particular lesson
>> 
>> Kristy
>>> marian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Kristy Gravlin" <hannah at teleport.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:59 AM
>>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Question from a teacher's experience...Do we KNOW that all the schools
>> did
>>>> not send out the note about the proposed change?
>>>> 
>>>>  I know from having been there that my school would send out a notice...
>>>> and then hear back "What's this? No one told me!"
>>>>    What happened?
>>>>    Notes went to the bottom of the backpack which some parents never
>> look
>>>> at...or only look at about June 15th when it is emptied for the year.
>>>>    Or the kid is in the habit of removing notes for fear one of them
>> will
>>>> say something s/he doesn't want parents to know.
>>>>    Or the kid took it out to check it out on the bus home, and left it
>>>> there on the floor.
>>>>    Or the kid needed one more piece of paper for the paper airplane
>>>> 'contest' on the way home.
>>>>    Or the kid needed to write his/her phone number on to give to a
>> friend.
>>>>    Or the class "mailman" whose job it was that day to get the letters
>>>> into
>>>> the mail box of each child has quite a time with
>> one-to-one-correspondence
>>>> and so some of the kids did get it, some did not.
>>>>    Or the copy machine was acting up again and some of the pages were
>>>> blank
>>>> and whoever was mailing didn't notice that.
>>>>    The teacher has to copy her own notices, and the line was 4 teachers
>>>> long, and s/he had to be on playground duty during his/her break, and so
>>>> s/he planned to do it during her lunch 30 minute break instead of going
>> to
>>>> the bathroom then, but...oops, forgot in the urgency of the moment.
>>>>    Or the teacher had intended to hand them out as the kids left...until
>>>> one of them threw up on a weak-stomached kid next to them and suddenly
>> it
>>>> was chaos. Maybe the whole stack of papers bit the dust too. Maybe the
>>>> teacher will remember to replace them....
>>>>    Or maybe the secretary got distracted by a fire drill that seemed to
>> be
>>>> unplanned! and when the job of putting the mail in the teachers' boxes
>> was
>>>> restarted, a whole row of mailboxes was missed. Those teachers probably
>> do
>>>> not know that they were missed that day. They are waiting for the note
>>>> they
>>>> thought was being planned. But those principals will change their
>>>> minds...something must have interrupted what the plans were going to be.
>>>>    Or maybe the principal was sick and not at the meeting where all
>>>> principals were told that this note was going out...or even that this
>>>> decision had been made...and so has no idea that s/he was supposed to be
>>>> doing something.
>>>> 
>>>>    I grant that some of these ideas seem far-fetched. But in fact any,
>> or
>>>> even all, of them could have happened in this case. It -has- happened in
>>>> other instances.
>>>>    It has also happened that schools were given a choice, and some opted
>>>> one way, and some the other. (That's not a good plan! unless, not all
>>>> schools will be doing this 1/2 hour thing???)
>>>> 
>>>>    But, lest we be accused of taking a little rumour from a mal-content
>>>> and
>>>> declaring it truth, remember that every person involved...child, parent,
>>>> another child, teacher, secretary, principal, and school board
>>>> member...could have been involved in some small, but vital, way.
>>>>    Thus, all who have worked in school (and probably in business, or any
>>>> group of people) know that truth is stranger than fiction, and anything
>>>> may
>>>> have happened to break the chain of announcement.
>>>> 
>>>>    Has anyone really checked with the schools involved (which is best
>> done
>>>> in a gentle, non-challenging manner) to find out whether they really
>> were
>>>> or
>>>> were not sent home?
>>>> 
>>>>    PS...would that a note really cost only the price of the sheet of
>>>> paper...they must be copied first. If we go to the store, we feel
>> pleased
>>>> when that is only 10? a copy. Hopefully your school is not paying that
>>>> much,
>>>> but it does pay far more for the copying, plus the time of whoever does
>>>> it,
>>>> than just the cost of the paper -- so it begins to add up. The next
>> option
>>>> is to print the notice on 1/4 sheets to save the money...and make them
>>>> even
>>>> easier to lose between school and home. Some days you cannot win.
>>>> 
>>>>    Kristy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet





From jamsm at aol.com  Thu Jun 24 16:02:57 2010
From: jamsm at aol.com (jamsm at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:02:57 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
Message-ID: <8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>

Glad you were able to find more on it, I had not checked Fox; but then, do you consider Fox as part of the main stream news, hmmm?
I would never consider the Congressman's actions as acceptable!  
He is completely out of line as he states in his apology - but excuses his actions later - see below!  

I expected you to defend the Congressman - as you have.  
You prove again that you do not know how to read and do not recognize even simple satire.
Also, I hope that I never meet you on the street while using a camera!

I did not see a camera 'shoved in his face'  - the camera came in close to his face when the student was grabbed.  
I got the impression that there were two students.  The second student appeared to have taken the camera when the first student was grabbed. While the first college student was man handled the student (now) with the camera, whom you can hear in the background state "so am I" in regards to being a student, was able to keep the congressman in camera view.

So, you think that the Congressman's actions were 'normal' (assuming you think it is normal as you state you would probably do the same) and because he later apologized all is O.K.?

 You agree that the  Congressman saw the error of his actions - but that was after the video was on youtube, then blogged about (and possibly after a previous Fox story had been aired) and then probably after someone told him that he needs to cover up his actions with an apology.

Reading text from the link that you provided the Congressman is quoted as saying,
"The truth is I had a long day," he said. "I've had bad days many times. It's not a good crutch to lean on and I won't use that."

 
He just used it as an excuse !
A news reporter in your video also uses the statement as an excuse for the Congressman.


Were you able to find any articles about the college students coming forward?

The Grouch



 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore


> From: jamsm at aol.com

> 

> A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets

> a college student

> 

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM



Actually, he wasn't that friendly and more like man-handled the student who

wanted to shove a camera in his face but not say who he was.  If someone

were to do that to me, I'd probably do what the congressman did.  Still, I

realize as a congressman he ought to be held to a higher level of behavior.

He realized it too and apologized the same day.  Why didn't you bother

posting the fact that he'd apologized?



http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/politics/nc-congressman-bob-etheridge-releas

es-statement-of-apology-after-video-shows-confrontation-061410



Jeff





_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


 

From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 16:10:02 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:10:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2BD2880C-BDB0-49CF-9F4B-91BDBA50C4F1@verizon.net>

An embarrassment to his profession to react so cynically.
But of course I'm sure there are Republicans who have reacted the  
same way and with a little work one could find them on You Tube as  
well.  And as Jeff has pointed out he did recognize the error of his  
ways and apologize.
What would be the Christian thing to do after one repents and  
apologizes?  To hound him  with the video at every turn? To be sure  
to pass it on to every link in one's address book?  To rebroadcast it  
as many times as possible? Always leaving off the apology to make  
sure it is slanted as negatively as possible?

Katie




On Jun 24, 2010, at 1:34 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
> A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets a college student
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From allnutt at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 16:18:35 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:18:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <18E5890A-DA33-48F0-AE84-15D8687FB4A1@verizon.net>

Why does Jeff have to do all the work?
You were able to find the video of the incident in the first place.  
Why don't you report if you can find any articles about the college  
students coming forward?

Katie

On Jun 24, 2010, at 4:02 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
> Were you able to find any articles about the college students  
> coming forward?
>
> The Grouch
>
>
>
>



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Thu Jun 24 16:33:41 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:33:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <007001cb13f5$af2ae3d0$0d80ab70$@com>

> From: jamsm at aol.com [mailto:jamsm at aol.com]
> 
> Glad you were able to find more on it, I had not checked
> Fox; but then, do you consider Fox as part of the main
> stream news, hmmm?

Fox, in one breath, would have you think they're part of the mainstream news
and, in another breath, try to claim they're not part of the mainstream
news.  I'm not sure it matters.  In the grand scheme of things this is a
pretty nothing event.

> I would never consider the Congressman's actions as
> acceptable!

Perhaps this particular congressman's actions, but I don't believe for a
second you wouldn't recant that position given the opportunity to benefit
your position by doing so.

> I expected you to defend the Congressman - as you
> have.

You need to re-read what I wrote because nowhere in there did I defend.
Anything that could be considered defending him was specifically what I
would do in his situation.

> You prove again that you do not know how to read [...]

You, sir, should look in the mirror.

Attacking the messenger doesn't make your argument any more credible.

> [...] and do not recognize even simple satire.

Where is the satire?

> Also, I hope that I never meet you on the street while
> using a camera!

Hyperbole is the greatest thing ever!  Seriously!

No one that behaves civilly has anything to worry about.  Those that don't
act civilly will be met with a response appropriate to the level of
incivility.

> I did not see a camera 'shoved in his face' - the
> camera came in close to his face when the student
> was grabbed. [...]

There were two cameras.  Each person had a camera.  In the very beginning of
the shot the person that's grabbed shoves their hand with the camera into
his face.

> [...] I got the impression that there were
> two students. [...]

I get the impression that there are two people.  I do not get the impression
that either of them are students.

> [...] The second student appeared to have taken the
> camera when the first student was grabbed. 

No, see above about two cameras.

> So, you think that the Congressman's actions were
> 'normal' (assuming you think it is normal as you
> state you would probably do the same) and because
> he later apologized all is O.K.?

I didn't say that all is ok because he apologized.  I also didn't say I
thought his actions were "normal".  Here is exactly what I said:

"Actually, he wasn't that friendly and more like
 man-handled the student..."

You make the assumption that because I'd have a similar response in that
sort of situation that it automatically makes it normal.  I don't happen to
think that two strangers with cameras walking up to someone else and
starting a conversation with a question giving away their motive of an
ambush interview is "normal" either.  An abnormal situation calls for an
abnormal response.

> You agree that the Congressman saw the error of
> his actions - but that was after the video was
> on youtube, then blogged about (and possibly after
> a previous Fox story had been aired) and then
> probably after someone told him that he needs to
> cover up his actions with an apology.

I agree that the Congressman saw the error of his actions -- no "buts"
necessary.

FWIW, Fox did air the video footage earlier in the day, but they only looped
a small part of it, not showing him grabbing the person's hand or pulling
the person alongside with a hand around back grasping his far shoulder from
behind.

> Reading text from the link that you provided the
> Congressman is quoted as saying, "The truth is
> I had a long day," he said. "I've had bad days
> many times. It's not a good crutch to lean on
> and I won't use that."
> 
> He just used it as an excuse !

No, he's giving context and then *closing* by saying he won't use it as an
excuse because it's "not a good crutch to lean on".

> A news reporter in your video also uses the
> statement as an excuse for the Congressman.

The Congressman isn't responsible for what a news reporter says.

> Were you able to find any articles about the
> college students coming forward?

The only things I've found from them is them anonymously posting the raw
footage from both cameras.  They won't talk about why they wanted to
interview him, what their motive was for starting things out like they did,
whether they'd planned ahead of time to create a hostile environment like
that or not, if they had wholesome intentions to begin with, whether they
were hired by a member of the GOP trying to make a Democrat look bad,
whether they are actually students or not, etc.  There are zero details
beyond the video footage, the Congressman's apology, and media speculation.

Jeff



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 16:42:37 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:42:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <18E5890A-DA33-48F0-AE84-15D8687FB4A1@verizon.net>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com><005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com><8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<18E5890A-DA33-48F0-AE84-15D8687FB4A1@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <FEA9305B2C594C10BF7AD58033E42ABC@GeriPC>

Because some people are here with the express intention of introducing 
insanity to this venue. Such people are not honest, logical, or socially 
well-intentioned. Some are downright paranoid.  Period.

They are not rational & are not kind... like you are, Katie, for instance.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:18 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore

> Why does Jeff have to do all the work?
> You were able to find the video of the incident in the first place.
> Why don't you report if you can find any articles about the college
> students coming forward?
>
> Katie
>
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 4:02 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Were you able to find any articles about the college students
>> coming forward?
>>
>> The Grouch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From edavie at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 17:04:37 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:04:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <A1AFF78A8DA74DF6B4DE4058D7CC6AF7@EdDaviePC>

Agree and hope to see you around, bob!
Ed



From: Steele, Mike 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:12 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .


Sad day for G-net.

:-(



________________________________
From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
Sent: June 24, 2010 11:25 AM
To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Thu Jun 24 17:54:54 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:54:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
In-Reply-To: <A1AFF78A8DA74DF6B4DE4058D7CC6AF7@EdDaviePC>
References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A80D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<A1AFF78A8DA74DF6B4DE4058D7CC6AF7@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <0EA0BC5949514248A2E5954453FD40D3@GeriPC>

Yes, for sure!


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:04 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .

> Agree and hope to see you around, bob!
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> From: Steele, Mike 
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:12 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list 
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
> 
> 
> Sad day for G-net.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Browning <rab at jurislex.com>
> Sent: June 24, 2010 11:25 AM
> To: Grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: [Grovenet] Going to lay back for a while . . .
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Thu Jun 24 23:31:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:31:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <47151924-A95A-4A4D-A876-6FC15718041F@verizon.net>

Is there some reason the "college student" and the camera operator refused to identify them selves?

At 20 second into the sound bite, the conversation had already been:

person: Hi Congressman.

Congressman: How are you?

person: Congressman, how are you?

Congressman: Thank you.

person: Do you fully support the Obama agenda?

Camera at 18 inches or less from his face.

Congressman: Who are you?

camera moves back, no answer to identity question.  

Congressman: Who are you?

person and camera are still within arms reach of the Congressman, still no answer to identity question.

Congressman: Who are you?

Congressman strikes camera and takes hold of student.

etc.

Typical news reporting would start with, "Stuffy Potato, KOOK News.  Congressman, do you fully support the Obama agenda?"

So who was the student?


Is there some reason the college student had his face obscured?

At least when Michael Moore does it to the President of General Motors, he was visible and introduced himself.

David


On Jun 24, 2010, at 1:34 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets a college student
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 01:20:16 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 01:20:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
	drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>

I watched the link tonight, and got the comments by Mark Anthony Signorelli about the problems that the scientific method creates for scholastic theology and scholastic philosophy.

It appears that you were posting yesterday's page about Dr Richard L. Rubinstein, and it changed today.  So, I watched that one too.

Regarding Dr Rubinstein, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", PhD Religion and ordained rabbi, ends his comments with "this man is a menace to Israel".  Which, I suppose, says more about Dr Rubinstein's agenda than any other comment in his presentation.  It may also establish his true loyalties.

Other references and my comments.

"Obama ... is trying to change America's relationship to the world..."  - after 8 years of President G. W. Bush, that needs doing.

"He has stalled all attempts to bring meaningful sanctions to Iran." - a comment made in ignorance of the latest economic sanctions
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2414825120100624

"his intention is to correct the historical mistake of the creation of the state of Israel.  ... can only do this by, not only destroying the state, but by destroying the people." - Dr Rubinstein is a Dr of Religion, I would guess that gives him the ability to read minds, because there is no substance to the accusation.

"I have no doubt that he would no be unhappy to see the destruction of the state of Israel so long as he can say 'My hands have not shed this blood' which is the phrase from the Bible" - A double dig.  Reading minds and a rabbi quoting Pilate to Christians.

"he has a hostility toward Western Europe especially England as symbolized by returning the bust of Winston Churchill to the English" - 1952, Prime Minister Winston Churchill declares Kenya Emergency, authorizes British detention and torture which includes Hussein Onyango Obama, the President's paternal grandfather.  I suppose it would be like Don returning a bust of Lord Balniel, the Minister of State for Defense on "Bloody Sunday" 1972 in Derry's Blogside, Northern Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

"nuclear free Middle East and a nuclear free world" - an odd complaint unless Dr Rubinstein wants Iran to have the bomb.

"bowing to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia" - the same leader that President G. W. Bush kissed.  Oh, Obama also bowed to the Pope, does that make him Roman Catholic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CjQFVQQPcw

"He is the most radical president America has ever had."  -  Political hyperbole.  BTW, President Andrew Jackson has the strong lead in that contest.

In my opinion, the Doctor is conservative ( maybe reactionary ), pro-Israel ( even at the expense of the U.S.), and he doesn't like anyone who has anything to do with Muslims.  Since the President had a muslim father, he must be evil.

But, that is just my opinion.
David

On Jun 24, 2010, at 10:07 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:

> I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell
> 
> He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!
> 
> Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your own medicine.] 
> 
> Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a young age. 
> 
> Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).
> 
> In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Grouch



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 02:18:27 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 02:18:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>

It appears that a lot of guesswork going on here, including that worn comedy
central Cop Out used in a number of cases.

What the Professor said can be condensed into two questions, did the
president do those things or did he not.

Having watched the video several times opinion has nothing to do with it,
and repeated Cop Out does nothing to enhance credibility. 

It appears that about 98% of the events the professor cited had already been
recorded in reliable written and visual media, media I'll bet we all saw. 

There is no question that the president did it. And no Cop Out can change
any of that.

Just keep it simple and it's easier to understand. Also, blame Bush is a
very time worn Cop Out. 
 
Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 6/25/2010 1:21:22 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
I watched the link tonight, and got the comments by Mark Anthony Signorelli
about the problems that the scientific method creates for scholastic
theology and scholastic philosophy.
 
It appears that you were posting yesterday's page about Dr Richard L.
Rubinstein, and it changed today.  So, I watched that one too.
 
Regarding Dr Rubinstein, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", PhD Religion
and ordained rabbi, ends his comments with "this man is a menace to Israel".
 Which, I suppose, says more about Dr Rubinstein's agenda than any other
comment in his presentation.  It may also establish his true loyalties.
 
Other references and my comments.
 
"Obama ... is trying to change America's relationship to the world..."  -
after 8 years of President G. W. Bush, that needs doing.
 
"He has stalled all attempts to bring meaningful sanctions to Iran." - a
comment made in ignorance of the latest economic sanctions
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2414825120100624
 
"his intention is to correct the historical mistake of the creation of the
state of Israel.  ... can only do this by, not only destroying the state,
but by destroying the people." - Dr Rubinstein is a Dr of Religion, I would
guess that gives him the ability to read minds, because there is no
substance to the accusation.
 
"I have no doubt that he would no be unhappy to see the destruction of the
state of Israel so long as he can say 'My hands have not shed this blood'
which is the phrase from the Bible" - A double dig.  Reading minds and a
rabbi quoting Pilate to Christians.
 
"he has a hostility toward Western Europe especially England as symbolized
by returning the bust of Winston Churchill to the English" - 1952, Prime
Minister Winston Churchill declares Kenya Emergency, authorizes British
detention and torture which includes Hussein Onyango Obama, the President's
paternal grandfather.  I suppose it would be like Don returning a bust of
Lord Balniel, the Minister of State for Defense on "Bloody Sunday" 1972 in
Derry's Blogside, Northern Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
 
"nuclear free Middle East and a nuclear free world" - an odd complaint
unless Dr Rubinstein wants Iran to have the bomb.
 
"bowing to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia" - the same leader that President G
 W. Bush kissed.  Oh, Obama also bowed to the Pope, does that make him Roman
Catholic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CjQFVQQPcw
 
"He is the most radical president America has ever had."  -  Political
hyperbole.  BTW, President Andrew Jackson has the strong lead in that
contest.
 
In my opinion, the Doctor is conservative ( maybe reactionary ), pro-Israel
( even at the expense of the U.S.), and he doesn't like anyone who has
anything to do with Muslims.  Since the President had a muslim father, he
must be evil.
 
But, that is just my opinion.
David
 
On Jun 24, 2010, at 10:07 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote:
 
> I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the
Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'
>
> http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell
>
> He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored
glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!
>
> Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is
actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there
are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can
find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can
create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the
arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what
the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct
mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of,
called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to
sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your
tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes,
I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your
own medicine.]
>
> Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they
can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were
obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to
believe in the liberal teachings at a young age.
>
> Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so
many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear
mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose
colored glasses (the true bigots).
>
> In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was
disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point
was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that
cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure,
data restoration.]
>
>
>
>
> The Grouch
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 02:24:43 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 02:24:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Telling it like it is
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4C2475DB.000011.02516@DON-B2514E06367>

Since Israel came up again, here is a congressman who tells it like it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c09RyJC0JqI
 
 
Thanks all and I hope all will support Israel's right to exist.

don
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 02:28:58 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 02:28:58 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) Telling it like it is
Message-ID: <4C2476D9.00001A.02516@DON-B2514E06367>

Since Israel is in the current news, this congressman tells it like it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c09RyJC0JqI

Thanks all, I hope you enjoy reality, and have a good night.
 
Don
 
 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 02:48:50 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 02:48:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>

http://www.newsmax
com/InsideCover/Poll-Confidence-Obama-Low/2010/06/24/id/362939?s=al&promo_cod
=A26B-1
 
Even the Coffee Party who started out as Obama groupies, have reached a
membership of a quarter million, and their groupie mentality has turned on
congress big time, from support Obama unquestionably  to question everything
he does. 

Many of the Coffee Club members might as well join the Tea Party Patriots.
They both want the same reasonable things.

Funny how that works.

Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: jamsm at aol.com
Date: 6/24/2010 4:04:08 PM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;  grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
 
Glad you were able to find more on it, I had not checked Fox; but then, do
you consider Fox as part of the main stream news, hmmm?
I would never consider the Congressman's actions as acceptable!
He is completely out of line as he states in his apology - but excuses his
actions later - see below!
 
I expected you to defend the Congressman - as you have.
You prove again that you do not know how to read and do not recognize even
simple satire.
Also, I hope that I never meet you on the street while using a camera!
 
I did not see a camera 'shoved in his face'  - the camera came in close to
his face when the student was grabbed.
I got the impression that there were two students.  The second student
appeared to have taken the camera when the first student was grabbed. While
the first college student was man handled the student (now) with the camera,
whom you can hear in the background state "so am I" in regards to being a
student, was able to keep the congressman in camera view.
 
So, you think that the Congressman's actions were 'normal' (assuming you
think it is normal as you state you would probably do the same) and because
he later apologized all is O.K.?
 
  You agree that the  Congressman saw the error of his actions - but that
was after the video was on youtube, then blogged about (and possibly after a
previous Fox story had been aired) and then probably after someone told him
that he needs to cover up his actions with an apology.
 
Reading text from the link that you provided the Congressman is quoted as
saying,
"The truth is I had a long day," he said. "I've had bad days many times. It
s not a good crutch to lean on and I won't use that."
 
 
He just used it as an excuse !
A news reporter in your video also uses the statement as an excuse for the
Congressman.
 
 
Were you able to find any articles about the college students coming
forward?
 
The Grouch
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Howden <admin at jeffhowden.com>
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] News that main stream will ignore
 
 
> From: jamsm at aol.com
 
>
 
> A 'friendly' congressman on the streets of DC meets
 
> a college student
 
>
 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v60oNUoHBYM
 
 
 
Actually, he wasn't that friendly and more like man-handled the student who
 
wanted to shove a camera in his face but not say who he was.  If someone
 
were to do that to me, I'd probably do what the congressman did.  Still, I
 
realize as a congressman he ought to be held to a higher level of behavior.
 
He realized it too and apologized the same day.  Why didn't you bother
 
posting the fact that he'd apologized?
 
 
 
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/politics/nc-congressman-bob-etheridge-releas
 
es-statement-of-apology-after-video-shows-confrontation-061410
 
 
 
Jeff
 
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
 
GroveNet mailing list
 
GroveNet at rdrop.com
 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From rlo42 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 25 09:29:17 2010
From: rlo42 at yahoo.com (+rlo)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <FBC45D29FB634D46911A916567BE203F@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <831221.90943.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

One wonders how many people have been "run off", (aka: unsubscribed), of this list because of the very things mentioned below Ed's response.
?
It is sad that a dozen or so people here can proclaim their innocence, yet refuse to TRULY examine themselves and back off a little, not in their beliefs, but to have a little bit of class while expressing their views. (This is what used to, and was supposed to make the USA and OREGON a little bit different!)?The rudeness exhibited here is worse than in a bar, church, or even an opposing stadium such as the St. Louis Cardinals playing the Cubbies at Wrigley Field. Or being at UW if you are a Duck fan.
?
Having been subjected to the "Grovenet Treatment" by people whom say they are responsible for other peoples jobs, I wonder what those people would say if they were aware of how much brain power/time goes into posting here, instead of DOING SOMETHING to improve the economy.?

But alas, I will not be able, (thankfully) to read anyones response to this. Because I will be finally following up on my threat to unsubscribe. Thank you to "the Grouch" for attempting to be "the other side"! I truly am responsible for other people's jobs and I have and will continue, trying to DO SOMETHING to improve those jobs and hopefully continue them.
?
I will leave you with a question or two...Do YOU REALLY CARE about losing people on this list? (Running them off?) Is it better to get flys with honey or vinegar?
?
Give em heck GROUCH!
?
?

--- On Thu, 6/24/10, Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net> wrote:


From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 10:38 AM


Just an opinion, like yours!
Ed




From: jamsm at aol.com 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:07 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry






I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year", and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'

http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell



He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!

Don has valid points and attempts to? get some you to look at what is actually happening in/to our country and world at large.? I am sure there are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.? Just because you can find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.? Anyone can create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct mumbo jumbo and more!).? Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of, called names, called ignorant etc and some of? you would actually want? to sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!? [Yes, I have attempted to do some that on here to just? give you back some of your own medicine.] 

Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many? were obviously brought up? (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to believe in the liberal teachings at a young age. 

Don is Not fear mongering!? He is bringing out very valid points that so many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear mongering etc? because he does not see the world through their biased rose colored glasses (the true bigots).

In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure, data restoration.]




The Grouch









-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:



> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing

> out good topics of discussion.









> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list.

>



Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?? Oh,

please!



jimz



PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?







>

> _______________________________________________

> GroveNet mailing list

> GroveNet at rdrop.com

> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

>

_______________________________________________

GroveNet mailing list

GroveNet at rdrop.com

http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 10:16:28 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:16:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C8493DBA.17482%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C8493DBA.17482%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <848D30E07D544D0AB972CB5BB937918E@JeffVAIO>

Since I added up the days of school for last year, I thought I'd check the school district website to find out if they had information about which days would  be cut next year.  I found the agenda/packet/minutes for the school board meeting:
http://fgsd.schoolfusion.us/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/788348/File/School%20Board%20Minutes/June%2028,%202010%20packet.pdf?sessionid=0160a883537fcea8bdf59ca684a6e4ef

I found the calendar towards the end of the packet and I compared the data collected yesterday.  A 6th grader is expected to attend school 164 days next year (last year was 164-1/2).  So now I'm confused.  They talked about cutting an additional 6-8 days, but the school year is only one day shorter.  Actually, 6th graders are supposed to start one day later than fifth graders.  

It seems I've always heard about school years being 180 days long, but the days according to the district only add up to 164/165.  Does anyone know what the state requirement is?

I have the spreadsheet I used to collect the data and would be happy to share it if anyone is interested in checking my numbers.  I'll try to attach it, but I think attachments don't work on GroveNet.  Let me know if you would like a copy.

Maybe someone from the district can explain this - but I don't think anyone monitors GroveNet.  I'll copy Connie Potter and see if she has any information

Any insight would be appreciated,
Marian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kristy Gravlin" <hannah at teleport.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:52 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"

> Marian wrote about the school year being too short. I was surprised to hear
> that she counted 164.5 days (and am assuming she meant the number of days
> the school was open and accepting children rather than that her daughter
> missed many days for illness.)
> 
> As often happens a number of ?required days? immediately popped into my
> mind...and then I wondered if that was by Oregon law, or by Illinois law. I
> think they are not identical...but they are close...and I think it is either
> 176 or 180 days. Your count is so much less that I am confused about what I
> thought I knew. Of course, it is 13 years since it was of import to me. I
> might have forgotten (but I cannot think it is by that much) or the law may
> have changed (which also does not seem likely to me.) I?ll see if I can get
> a current ruling on that.  You are write that 164 doesn?t seem to be what
> would do best by the kids.
> 
> There are months where class time is particularly short. I know that
> teachers always felt that November was not as might be...and yet what to do
> about it? That?s when we did conferences (which we thought were important)
> but it required four half-days out of school and an evening too...at least.)
> And then there was Veteran?s Day which is a holiday. And then there were two
> days off for Thanksgiving. But November seemed to be best for
> Conferences...at the end of a grading period and also after we had had time
> enough to get to know the children well. (Otherwise it is embarrassing to
> have a parent ask about how Johnnie is doing in reading after two weeks of
> school...We are still trying to see that order is maintained and names are
> learned and workable groups are gathered, etc.) That?s overstating a
> bit...but truly it takes a while to get to know whether Johnnie is able,
> able but not performing, or not performing because he is not able....and
> then parents always want to know what should be done...that takes some time
> to determine too. 
> 
> Teachers have very little to do with the length of the school year...that
> all happens way up the ladder of decision making. I must admit that we do
> get almost as excited about ?snow days? or such as the kids. But one must
> have some fun and hearing the radio declare ?no school? is one of those kind
> of things. (From 5 on, I spent 50 of 51 years in school...snow days are a
> gift! 8-))  On the other hand, it also means that the lesson plans are now
> ?behind? and things must be crammed together somehow so that required things
> can get done. We try not to think about that result of snow days.
> 
> Whenever I am on this soapbox, I get around too, to the concept that
> teaching is not ?factory work.? Some of the rules that sound so good would
> work if we had 25 identical children who responded in identical ways to the
> lesson. Then tomorrow?s lesson could be given ?just right? as all would be
> ready for identical progress. Think instead of a room full of jumping beans
> that must be gathered and ?held? while the lesson is given...or a room full
> of ?yappy puppies? that you are teaching to ?sit? all at the same time. And
> then the experts wonder why we cannot get all 25 to exactly the same point
> on November 1...and move them to exactly the same point on June 1. Any
> parent who has more than one child, has probably noticed that the kids did
> not all crawl on the 210th day of life...nor begin using sentences on the
> 925th day. Kids are just not identical. Not that this concept really has
> much to do with the discussion of year length....hopefully the teaching
> staff understands that they are not aiming for a certain number of days.
> They are aiming to begin in the fall and end in June...with as much progress
> made as the child could possibly accomplish that year given their ages, and
> the other things that interrupt. Length of year could be one...or
> illness...or emotional trauma...or inborn skill levels...or any number of
> things.
> Thanks for listening...
> Kristy
> 
> 
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: Marian Cakarnis
> 
> As far as the time goes, I am more infuriated that more class time is being
> cut.  Our school day/year is already too short - my daughter, a 5th grader
> had 164-1/2 days scheduled to attend.  I know, because I just sat down and
> counted the number of days, and it doesn't include any snow days we had last
> year. Number of school days per week were:
> 3,5,5,5,4,5,4,3,5,4,5,2,5,5,4,5,5,4,4,5,5,4,5,5,4,3,5,5,5,5,4,5,5,5,5,4,3-1/
> 2. To summarize, there were 15 weeks with 4 or fewer days, and 22 weeks of 5
> days.  And I'm fairly certain there will be an additional 8 days cut next
> year, bringing our school year down to less than 157 days.  As a matter of
> perspective, I was educated in upstate New York in the 60's and 70's and our
> school year was between 205 and 210 days depending on the number of snow
> days.  If it fell below 205, days were added to the end of the year. Perhaps
> students might be more successful if they spent more time in the school.
> Teachers would also have a better chance of fulfilling their professional
> obligation of teaching our students (reflected in test scores), if they also
> spent more time at school.
> 
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 11:36:04 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:36:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <446B11E39545429B99072203BAC7D438@JeffVAIO>
	<AANLkTimrmRZ65jmUVFu8ACIwTOea9Br0roGCcTtacgtA@mail.gmail.com>
	<003d01cb1350$cc001520$64003f60$@com>
	<AANLkTin8ZcX-tEy7QxfLl1IJ9f6opDEiJrEl7dajGWy6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIT6i-52FqH8zIzraFbZLFGmsowZ6kdoHx_HlX@mail.gmail.com>

Since Kristy has pointed out that teacher aides CANNOT assume responsibility
for running a class or any sort, that puts the study hall idea out of the
running as a viable alternative. I wonder if anyone in the district has
considered the fact that mornings are the best time for learning and that by
shaving off a half hour on Wednesday mornings is missing out on some of the
most potentially, productive teaching times of the day? I believe the
Hillsboro School District has something like this, but they get the the time
they need through an early dismissal at the end of the day. It sure makes
more sense in that the children are tired and wearing down, and are least
productive during this time. I would think it would also be a whole lot
easier on the parents if it were in the afternoon.

jimz

PS: I know no one's mentioned it, but is this a direct result of No Child
Left Behind performance pressures? Sounds like it. If it is, then it's just
another example of the downside of this program. The enormous fiscal and
educational pressures put on districts and teachers by NCLB (to meet
standardized performance goals at any cost) is a whole different topic! A
fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
them.



On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like your study hall idea Ron. Kids will all be safe in school. Teacher
> aides could man the study halls or home rooms. Lives would not be disrupted,
> and the teachers could get their much needed prep and meeting time.
>
> jimz
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:
>
>> As I recall (from a scan of the flier that was sent out by Harvey Clarke)
>> it
>> was to enable the teachers to get together to plan and for team building.
>> If the kids could go to school at the regular time and do a study hall
>> activity it wouldn't impact the families and it would give the kids a
>> chance
>> to catch up on that class they have been putting off.;)
>> When is the next school board meeting? Hopefully they have some answers or
>> are willing to listen to the parents perspective.
>>
>> Ron H.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Zaleski
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:25 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
>>
>> Marian,
>>
>> I recall your earlier post on this a short time ago, and since I don't
>> have
>> any kids in the district anymore, I didn't follow the thread. For the sake
>> of discussion, however, I can offer my opinion based upon having been a
>> parent and my own awareness of how disruptive such a scheduling anomaly
>> can
>> be. If this scheduling change has nothing to do with the budget cuts then
>> it
>> sounds like an arbitrary one made to accommodate some special need the
>> district may have. Not having any background on the issue or statement
>> from
>> the school, it's difficult to form an opinion as to it's necessity. From a
>> parent standpoint, I agree, the disruption can be huge. Every Tom McCall
>> parent must alter their schedules to accommodate the change, and for some
>> that may involve considerable effort.
>>
>> My question would be, is the benefit to the school worth the effort of so
>> many parents? What exactly is the purpose? Teacher planning? Meeting time?
>> My wife was an elementary teacher for many years and I know it is a
>> demanding, time consuming job, so I don't fault them for wanting extra
>> time
>> to plan and prepare (if that is the reason). I just think something like
>> this, in that it impacts so many, ought to have been the subject of some
>> public discussion. While an extra half hour may seem a trifle, it's huge
>> when it comes to compliance at the family level.
>>
>> Does anyone out there know the details, so we can all be on the same page?
>> Obviously, Marian is expressing the type of frustration common with
>> change,
>> and it is highly likely that she is speaking unofficially for many other
>> parents as well. I recall this earlier thread had a discussion about what
>> schools were affected and which schools notified parents of the impending
>> change. I also recall there was no consistancy in the notification
>> process.
>> Perhaps if some learned list member could contribute more details Marian
>> could get some of the answers she seeks. Mike S., you, among others on
>> this
>> list, are our resident authority on such matters (even tho you aren't
>> involved as you once were). What's your take on this change, and why
>> wasn't
>> there a district-wide notice sent out to parents?
>>
>> Whether this thread becomes an exchange of information or a debate on the
>> soundness of the district's decision is up to the list. What is important
>> is
>> that it is a local issue and THIS is where the value of having this forum
>> in
>> the first place makes all the difference. Local issues. Local values.
>> People
>> talking to people. Power to the people. Go Grovenet!!!
>>
>> jimz
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Marian Cakarnis
>> <oldredwagon at verizon.net>wrote:
>>
>> > I think I mentioned this before, but I'd like some additional feedback.
>> >
>> > The school district is planning on starting school 1/2 hour later every
>> > Wednesday next school year.  My daughter attends Tom McCall which
>> currently
>> > starts at 9:15.  Beginning in the fall, she won't start school until
>> 9:45
>> on
>> > Wednesdays.  Not only is this incredibly inconvenient for families, but
>> the
>> > district has done a terrible job of communicating this to parents.  Some
>> I
>> > talk to haven't heard about it and can't believe the district would
>> actually
>> > do it - because "if they were actually planning this, we would have
>> heard
>> > about it".
>> >
>> > And no, this has absolutely nothing to do with the $4.3 million the
>> school
>> > must cut from it's budget - that's another bunch of school days and
>> > reductions.  I also fear that this will alienate parents and families
>> and
>> > will probably be the demise of the bond measure.
>> >
>> > What do others think about this?  The impact to working parents is most
>> > significant, but it appears many of them haven't heard about it.  Does
>> this
>> > impact you?
>> >
>> > I want to feel like a partner to the schools in my daughters education,
>> but
>> > the distrust and decision making without regard to impact is widening
>> the
>> > chasm between the community and the district.
>> >
>> > Curious to find out why more people aren't more aware of this issue?
>> > Marian
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 12:44:38 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:44:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
Message-ID: <004801cb149e$d9fbb090$8df311b0$@com>

WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
http://www.obt.org/news_links/features/WK12_fontproject_06-10.html

While looking for inspiration, a team at WK12 (an experimental agency based
within the  Wieden + Kennedy advertising firm) came across a story about a
young girl who needed to move in order to learn. As team member Rachel Mays
explains: 

". In first grade, Paula Jones was assessed as 'learning disabled.' By sixth
grade she was still at the first grade reading level when one empathetic
teacher recognized her poise and graceful movements. This teacher encouraged
Paula to go home and spell out the alphabet using her arms and legs as
though she were a ballerina. Paula came in the very next morning dancing the
letters and then sequencing all 26 into a unified performance. Within a week
she moved from dancing words to writing them.  By the end of 6th grade she
was reading and writing at grade level. And the following year a 'learning
disabled' Paula earned above-average grades. "

Moved by Paula's story, WK12 set out to create a computer font based on
ballet and contacted OBT for help. Always up for a challenge, Soloist
Candace Bouchard choreographed the movements that would create each letter
of the alphabet. Armed with LED lights and technical skills from
Fashionbuddha, a WK12 team moved into the OBT studios for 3 days to capture
the raw footage. Company Artists Grace Shibley and Lucas Threefoot spent the
days with LEDs taped to their arms and feet, tracking their every movement
as they traced out Candice's letters with their bodies. Using animation
software and the data collected from the LED lights, the pathway from the
letters will form a usable typeface.

In the words of Rachel Mays, "This font is a tribute to all those kids who
were told to sit still and pay attention when, in fact, they just needed to
move to think."

See a recreation of the process and a celebration of arts and education
featuring OBT dancers at First Thursday on July 1st from 6:00-8:00pm 

Portland Center Stage Main Lobby 
128 NW Eleventh Ave
Portland, OR 97209 

Visit the partners: 

WK12 <http://wk12.com/> 
Fashionbuddha <http://www.fashionbuddha.com/> 


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 12:51:07 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:51:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Don's Post Cards
References: <831221.90943.qm@web35308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C2508AB.00000B.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

It has been suggested <GRIN> that I share some of the interests I have
outside of the 1% interest I have in politics.

I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a 2nd side to each issue.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donkelly/Haul/

This post card collection originated in Florida, Montana, Alaska, and China.
The post cards are very old, some dating back to 1919, and others dating to
China in their revolution before WWII.

I hope you enjoy. I left out the photos of executions in China as they were
brutal beheadings and hangings, and provide an unbelievable look into what
China thought good subject matter for post cards. Also, you ex Navy guys
will enjoy the old ships and submarines.

Have a good day and a good weekend all.

Don



 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: +rlo
Date: 06/25/10 09:29:39
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled
againstoffshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
One wonders how many people have been "run off", (aka: unsubscribed), of
this list because of the very things mentioned below Ed's response.
 
It is sad that a dozen or so people here can proclaim their innocence, yet
refuse to TRULY examine themselves and back off a little, not in their
beliefs, but to have a little bit of class while expressing their views.
(This is what used to, and was supposed to make the USA and OREGON a little
bit different!) The rudeness exhibited here is worse than in a bar, church,
or even an opposing stadium such as the St. Louis Cardinals playing the
Cubbies at Wrigley Field. Or being at UW if you are a Duck fan.
 
Having been subjected to the "Grovenet Treatment" by people whom say they
are responsible for other peoples jobs, I wonder what those people would say
if they were aware of how much brain power/time goes into posting here,
instead of DOING SOMETHING to improve the economy.
 
But alas, I will not be able, (thankfully) to read anyones response to this.
Because I will be finally following up on my threat to unsubscribe. Thank
you to "the Grouch" for attempting to be "the other side"! I truly am
responsible for other people's jobs and I have and will continue, trying to
DO SOMETHING to improve those jobs and hopefully continue them.
 
I will leave you with a question or two...Do YOU REALLY CARE about losing
people on this list? (Running them off?) Is it better to get flys with honey
or vinegar?
 
Give em heck GROUCH!
 
 
 
--- On Thu, 6/24/10, Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net> wrote:
 
 
From: Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 10:38 AM
 
 
Just an opinion, like yours!
Ed
 
 
 
 
From: jamsm at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:07 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
 
 
 
 
 
I dare you to view what a Yale fellow, "Distinguished Professor of the Year"
 and Harvard Phd has to say about your beloved 'saviour'
 
http://www.youtube.com/jmarkcampbell
 
 
 
He (NoSpam03) is not blind ! He is NOT looking through the rose colored
glasses that you blinded liberal lefties use to view the world through!
 
Don has valid points and attempts to  get some you to look at what is
actually happening in/to our country and world at large.  I am sure there
are other silent lurkers that appreciate Don's posts.  Just because you can
find a web link that claims this or that does not make it truth.  Anyone can
create a web page and claim facts - yes this works on both sides of the
arguments but so many of you put all your belief system in believing what
the main stream media wants you to believe (all the politically correct
mumbo jumbo and more!).  Anyone that does not agree with you is made fun of,
called names, called ignorant etc and some of  you would actually want  to
sensor those that have differing views. If someone attempts to use your
tactics of name calling and ridicule back at you then you yell foul!  [Yes,
I have attempted to do some that on here to just  give you back some of your
own medicine.]
 
Often, I feel it is pointless to attempt to 'educate' the blind left (they
can only see through their rose colored glasses) on this forum as many  were
obviously brought up  (many are probably from extremist CA) and taught to
believe in the liberal teachings at a young age.
 
Don is Not fear mongering!  He is bringing out very valid points that so
many today want to ignore. Some on this forum want to call him racist, fear
mongering etc  because he does not see the world through their biased rose
colored glasses (the true bigots).
 
In my last post I had some data disappear from the post, so my post was
disjointed and left a statement and a link missing thus the my whole point
was completely missed. I never followed up due to a computer issue that
cropped up. [I have yet to completely recover from the hard drive failure,
data restoration.]
 
 
 
 
The Grouch
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop
com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against offshore
drillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
 
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Steve <nospam03 at comcast.net> wrote:
 
 
 
> Don. I am sorry I haven't spoken up in your favor. Thank you for pointing
 
> out good topics of discussion.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
> >Thank you for good posts without all the bigotry of the left on this list

 
>
 
 
 
Not surprised with your response Steve, but *bigotry of the left*?  Oh,
 
please!
 
 
 
jimz
 
 
 
PS: I guess Don has at least *ONE* supporter on this list. Any others?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
>
 
> _______________________________________________
 
> GroveNet mailing list
 
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
 
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
>
 
_______________________________________________
 
GroveNet mailing list
 
GroveNet at rdrop.com
 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From hannah at teleport.com  Fri Jun 25 12:52:00 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:52:00 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIT6i-52FqH8zIzraFbZLFGmsowZ6kdoHx_HlX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C84A7310.1750D%hannah@teleport.com>




On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> A
> fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
> them.

Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and what
variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that reading
and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children will
learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that there is
nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people who
thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page long
speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The group,
as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the NCLB
group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in purring
on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy




From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 13:02:07 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:02:07 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Kagan
Message-ID: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

http://www.capwiz.com/afanet/issues/alert/?alertid=15179166&type=CO
 
If you sometimes feel frustrated and feel your voice is not heard in the
halls of congress, here is your chance for your opinion to be heard about
latest judge to be nominated for the supreme court of the land. The pros are
few and the cons are endless.

Don
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 13:05:02 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:05:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
In-Reply-To: <4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <006401cb14a1$b3df5800$1b9e0800$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
>
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/Poll-Confidence-Obama-Low/2010/06/24/id/3
62939?s=al&promo_cod=A26B-1

Linking to a poll on the Wall Street Journal and basically reciting the
salient points in bullet point form doesn't automatically mean that NewsMax
is now somehow a reliable news source.  Neither does using lots of AP and
Reuters articles, something else NewsMax likes to do to inflate their news
coverage.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 13:14:40 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:14:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
Message-ID: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

Discussions in congress include things some citizens don't care about, or
even want to know.

http://www.westernjournalism
com/lack-of-obama-birth-certificate-questioned-during-us-house-debate/

Don
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 13:38:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:38:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Kagan
In-Reply-To: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <009701cb14a6$55ff9150$01feb3f0$@com>

> From: donkelly
> 
> http://www.capwiz.com/afanet/issues/alert/?alertid=15179166&type=CO

The American Family Association can't possibly have an agenda with this, can
they?

They wouldn't possibly engage in hate-mongering of competitive religious
enterprises would they?

In competing with these alternate religious enterprises and not being in
favor of Kagan because she doesn't share their opinion on things, they
couldn't possibly desire to kill two birds with one stone by attempting to
falsely tie her those alternate religious enterprises they so desperately
wish to quash?

> [...] The pros are few and the cons are endless.

The pros and cons are certainly a subject of broad opining.  The cons become
less "endless" when you sift out the nonsense claims from the factual ones.

Jeff



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 13:38:12 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:38:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
In-Reply-To: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <009801cb14a6$57f39920$07dacb60$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> Discussions in congress include things some citizens
> don't care about, or even want to know.

Those that don't care to sift through the Western Journalism bit or watch
the entire YouTube video that's referenced, here's the salient bit:

"'Little baby with ink on their foot,' said King,
 'stamped right there on the birth certificate --
 there's one in this country we haven't seen -- but,
 the footprint on those we have seen owe Uncle Sam
 $44,000.'"

Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa

This isn't a discussion in Congress.  It's one wing-nut Congressman making a
sideways comment (not the first of many either, mind you).

Even members of his own party are quickly distancing themselves from him as
are Tea Party groups.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100617/NEWS10/6170365/Rep-Steve-K
ing-draws-criticism-from-right-for-remarks-video-

House Resolution 593 already dealt with this issue and was passed
unanimously.

http://tinyurl.com/2awm69r


Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa had an opportunity to vote no or abstain, but he did
not.

http://tinyurl.com/2fc7r49

Jeff



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 13:38:46 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:38:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD "late start"
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8vCGJrVBK_343GqPQT8HVvY6NZFplnXW60k5l@mail.gmail.com>

Kristy,

In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals of
raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
"teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well rounded
education in this country. While millions of dollars and teacher hours are
spent preparing students to take performance tests, creative teaching
strategies and innovative approaches to teaching subjects outside of math,
reading and writing have all but disappeared. Subjects like social studies,
geography, history, music and others have been given little or no
consideration resulting in many schools dropping them all together (even
though they are still mandated by State curriculum guidelines).

While schools around the country are suffering for severe economic
paralysis, schools are being asked to do more with less (thanks, in part, to
the cut-out-the-fat, anti-tax advocates). And not only are schools
struggling to stay afloat financially, they are now burdened with the
additional pressure of improving testing scores or face even further
economic sanctions in the form of reduced federal aid. No wonder the
system's such a mess. You are right to feel fortunate not to be part of this
deepening quagmire in educational reform.

jimz

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A
> > fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
> > them.
>
> Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and what
> variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that reading
> and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children will
> learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that there
> is
> nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
> stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people who
> thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
> six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
> required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page long
> speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The
> group,
> as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the
> NCLB
> group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in
> purring
> on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 13:54:04 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:54:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>
	<4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00ba01cb14a8$8ca49a50$a5edcef0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly
> 
> It appears that about 98% of the events the professor
> cited had already been recorded in reliable written
> and visual media, media I'll bet we all saw.

The professor didn't cite events, but rather, he cited mindset and position.
Nevertheless, if you believe he was referring to events and 98% of those
events "had already been recorded in reliable written and visual media",
then it should be a simple task for you to list the events you believe the
professor was citing, research the specific media references to each of
them, and list any supporting evidence you have for your position.

You claim these things happened.  You claim these things have been recorded
in the media.  The onus is on you to substantiate your claim.

> There is no question that the president did it. And
> no Cop Out can change any of that.

A disturbingly lack of proof on your part begs to differ.

> Just keep it simple and it's easier to understand.
> Also, blame Bush is a very time worn Cop Out.

No, it's so much easier to blame the current administration for the previous
administration's mistakes.  It's *that* technique that's a very time worn
cop out.

I much prefer to give credit where credit is due and likewise with blame.

I suspect you find it easier to vilify someone when you can just cast
anything and everything at them and expect it'll all stick -- true or not.

Jeff



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 13:57:41 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:57:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006401cb14a1$b3df5800$1b9e0800$@com>
Message-ID: <4C251845.000031.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

I'll just let the weather of your comments speak for itself  Jeff. 

But there issues there in those bullets  that could be discussed. 

One example, her voting record and associated historical comments. 

Best question is: Do we need another judge who thinks the constitution is
invalid?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/25/2010 1:05:20 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
>
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/Poll-Confidence-Obama-Low/2010/06/24/id/3
62939?s=al&promo_cod=A26B-1
 
Linking to a poll on the Wall Street Journal and basically reciting the
salient points in bullet point form doesn't automatically mean that NewsMax
is now somehow a reliable news source.  Neither does using lots of AP and
Reuters articles, something else NewsMax likes to do to inflate their news
coverage.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 14:14:08 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:14:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled
	againstoffshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>	<4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00ba01cb14a8$8ca49a50$a5edcef0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C251C19.000041.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

I don't know about you Jeff, but I don't need proof of what I saw and heard.


I am neither blind nor deaf nor stupid. 

What the professor said was true (given a couple of points I never saw
before, I digress), but everyone who saw it in the news over the past 1+
years, know it is true,.........he did what it looked like he did, and he
did what he said he did, and he did much more than the professor said he did
 bowing before the Emperor of Japan for a tiny percentage of that. 

Obama's mind set is his.......we don't know what that is......but I like
your term wingnut.

What kind of proof do you need, beyond your eyes and ears? 

Your eyes and ears are sufficient in any court of law, are they not?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/25/2010 1:54:12 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled
againstoffshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly
>
> It appears that about 98% of the events the professor
> cited had already been recorded in reliable written
> and visual media, media I'll bet we all saw.
 
The professor didn't cite events, but rather, he cited mindset and position.
Nevertheless, if you believe he was referring to events and 98% of those
events "had already been recorded in reliable written and visual media",
then it should be a simple task for you to list the events you believe the
professor was citing, research the specific media references to each of
them, and list any supporting evidence you have for your position.
 
You claim these things happened.  You claim these things have been recorded
in the media.  The onus is on you to substantiate your claim.
 
> There is no question that the president did it. And
> no Cop Out can change any of that.
 
A disturbingly lack of proof on your part begs to differ.
 
> Just keep it simple and it's easier to understand.
> Also, blame Bush is a very time worn Cop Out.
 
No, it's so much easier to blame the current administration for the previous
administration's mistakes.  It's *that* technique that's a very time worn
cop out.
 
I much prefer to give credit where credit is due and likewise with blame.
 
I suspect you find it easier to vilify someone when you can just cast
anything and everything at them and expect it'll all stick -- true or not.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
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From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 14:12:50 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:12:50 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
In-Reply-To: <4C251845.000031.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
	<006401cb14a1$b3df5800$1b9e0800$@com>
	<4C251845.000031.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00c601cb14ab$2cc285e0$864791a0$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I'll just let the weather of your comments speak for
> itself Jeff.

Sunny with a chance of meatballs?

> But there issues there in those bullets that could
> be discussed.

I agree.  I'd prefer to stick to the ones based on fact and not discuss the
ones based on fear, falsities, or fallacies.

> One example, her voting record and associated
> historical comments.

Yes, that'd be the fact-based ones to discuss.

> Best question is: Do we need another judge who thinks
> the constitution is invalid?

Let's start with asking:

Where do you get the idea that she believes the constitution is invalid?

Jeff



From debbratland at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 14:22:58 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:22:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <C84A7310.1750D%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <AANLkTinIT6i-52FqH8zIzraFbZLFGmsowZ6kdoHx_HlX@mail.gmail.com>
	<C84A7310.1750D%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknVrZK7FUpSfn7q8UNxOKYE51r0BWRjry8bae3@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Kristy and Jimz, for your thoughtful comments on late start and
education in general.  I'm in full accordance with both of you.  Thank
goodness my kids were blessed with several teachers who think like you do,
despite NCLB.  The good teachers are the ones truly caught in the middle of
that law - they are the "thin blue line" between the minimal superficial
expectations of NCLB (passed down from the federal level to the state level
to the district level to the building level) and what's really good for each
child.

Another problem, besides expecting everyone to know the same thing on the
same day, is that "adequate yearly progress" is measured by comparing one
year's class with the last year's class.  You know, as a teacher, that
classes vary drastically from year to year.  Also, doesn't it make
infinitely more sense to look at each child to ensure that each child is
making progress?  When you assess progress as a group, you certainly don't
focus on the high achievers, for example.

As to the study hall idea, if you think about it it can't even work if aides
were available, because there is no physical space where you can cram that
many kids in for a study hall.  You could throw them all in the gym at once,
I guess, and they could play - but that's not a study hall.  At the first
board meeting this year when this idea was discussed, the superintendent
said that they would not be able to have kids come to school during that 1/2
hour because the logistics would not work.  The FG NewsTimes article after
the most recent board meeting (I was unable to attend) indicated that they
are trying to think of something to help families with that time period.

My perhaps faulty recollection from when they considered it a few years ago
was that they couldn't do after-school meetings because it would interfere
with sports and extracurricular activities.  But as I said, my memory is
hazy as to why they said afternoon early dismissal wouldn't work.

Again, thanks for your interest.  The board meeting is Monday night.  Feel
free to come and express your thoughts during "unscheduled public comment."
Sometimes it feels to those of us who do make waves that we're on the fringe
and that no one hears what we're saying.  So it's good to hear others are
thinking about education out there!

Deb Bratland






On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A
> > fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
> > them.
>
> Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and what
> variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that reading
> and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children will
> learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that there
> is
> nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
> stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people who
> thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
> six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
> required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page long
> speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The
> group,
> as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the
> NCLB
> group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in
> purring
> on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From edavie at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 14:25:10 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:25:10 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
In-Reply-To: <00c601cb14ab$2cc285e0$864791a0$@com>
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>
	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>	<006401cb14a1$b3df5800$1b9e0800$@com>
	<4C251845.000031.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00c601cb14ab$2cc285e0$864791a0$@com>
Message-ID: <9A3384FF8017452798FF8B45AD5CD2DC@EdDaviePC>

Actually, it was the Bush administration that thought the constitution was invalid!
But to you, of course, that is old stuff. Not worthy of discussion.
Ed



From: Jeff Howden 
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:12 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?


Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I'll just let the weather of your comments speak for
> itself Jeff.

Sunny with a chance of meatballs?

> But there issues there in those bullets that could
> be discussed.

I agree.  I'd prefer to stick to the ones based on fact and not discuss the
ones based on fear, falsities, or fallacies.

> One example, her voting record and associated
> historical comments.

Yes, that'd be the fact-based ones to discuss.

> Best question is: Do we need another judge who thinks
> the constitution is invalid?

Let's start with asking:

Where do you get the idea that she believes the constitution is invalid?

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From edavie at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 14:25:59 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:25:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  Is NewsMax reliable news?
Message-ID: <B7099A1469E74B33AEB42D0366598828@EdDaviePC>

To Don, of course!
Ed



From: Ed Davie 
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:25 PM
To: jeff at jeffhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?


Actually, it was the Bush administration that thought the constitution was invalid!
But to you, of course, that is old stuff. Not worthy of discussion.
Ed



From: Jeff Howden 
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:12 PM
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?


Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I'll just let the weather of your comments speak for
> itself Jeff.

Sunny with a chance of meatballs?

> But there issues there in those bullets that could
> be discussed.

I agree.  I'd prefer to stick to the ones based on fact and not discuss the
ones based on fear, falsities, or fallacies.

> One example, her voting record and associated
> historical comments.

Yes, that'd be the fact-based ones to discuss.

> Best question is: Do we need another judge who thinks
> the constitution is invalid?

Let's start with asking:

Where do you get the idea that she believes the constitution is invalid?

Jeff


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 14:46:33 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:46:33 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8vCGJrVBK_343GqPQT8HVvY6NZFplnXW60k5l@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin8vCGJrVBK_343GqPQT8HVvY6NZFplnXW60k5l@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>

Kristy,

In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals of
raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
"teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well rounded
education in this country. While millions of dollars and teacher hours are
spent preparing students to take performance tests, creative teaching
strategies and innovative approaches to teaching subjects both in and
outside of math, reading and writing have all but disappeared. Subjects like
social studies, geography, history, music and others have been given little
or no consideration resulting in many schools dropping them all together
(even though they are still mandated by State curriculum guidelines).

While schools around the country are suffering for severe economic
paralysis, schools are being asked to do more with less (thanks, in part, to
the cut-out-the-fat, anti-tax advocates). And not only are schools
struggling to stay afloat financially, they are now burdened with the
additional pressure of improving testing scores or face even further
economic sanctions in the form of reduced federal aid. No wonder the
system's such a mess. You are right to feel fortunate not to be part of this
deepening quagmire in educational reform.

jimz

PS: Sorry if this post is a repeat, but the first time I sent it it didn't
show up.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A
> > fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
> > them.
>
> Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and what
> variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that reading
> and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children will
> learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that there
> is
> nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
> stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people who
> thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
> six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
> required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page long
> speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The
> group,
> as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the
> NCLB
> group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in
> purring
> on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From hannah at teleport.com  Fri Jun 25 14:55:44 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 16:55:44 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C84A9010.17528%hannah@teleport.com>

There are some comments I'd gladly listen to twice! You must have been there
and done better!  Kristy


On 6/25/10 4:46 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kristy,
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
> boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals of
> raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
> implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
> backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
> broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
> "teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well rounded
> education in this country.




From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 15:06:32 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:06:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
In-Reply-To: <004801cb149e$d9fbb090$8df311b0$@com>
References: <004801cb149e$d9fbb090$8df311b0$@com>
Message-ID: <1DAF72650F75484B9E63124CF38BEEDB@GeriPC>

Wow, love the story, Jeff, thanks for passing it along.

:-)
Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jeff Howden" <admin at jeffhowden.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 12:44 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font

> WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
> http://www.obt.org/news_links/features/WK12_fontproject_06-10.html
>
> While looking for inspiration, a team at WK12 (an experimental agency 
> based
> within the  Wieden + Kennedy advertising firm) came across a story about a
> young girl who needed to move in order to learn. As team member Rachel 
> Mays
> explains:
>
> ". In first grade, Paula Jones was assessed as 'learning disabled.' By 
> sixth
> grade she was still at the first grade reading level when one empathetic
> teacher recognized her poise and graceful movements. This teacher 
> encouraged
> Paula to go home and spell out the alphabet using her arms and legs as
> though she were a ballerina. Paula came in the very next morning dancing 
> the
> letters and then sequencing all 26 into a unified performance. Within a 
> week
> she moved from dancing words to writing them.  By the end of 6th grade she
> was reading and writing at grade level. And the following year a 'learning
> disabled' Paula earned above-average grades. "
>
> Moved by Paula's story, WK12 set out to create a computer font based on
> ballet and contacted OBT for help. Always up for a challenge, Soloist
> Candace Bouchard choreographed the movements that would create each letter
> of the alphabet. Armed with LED lights and technical skills from
> Fashionbuddha, a WK12 team moved into the OBT studios for 3 days to 
> capture
> the raw footage. Company Artists Grace Shibley and Lucas Threefoot spent 
> the
> days with LEDs taped to their arms and feet, tracking their every movement
> as they traced out Candice's letters with their bodies. Using animation
> software and the data collected from the LED lights, the pathway from the
> letters will form a usable typeface.
>
> In the words of Rachel Mays, "This font is a tribute to all those kids who
> were told to sit still and pay attention when, in fact, they just needed 
> to
> move to think."
>
> See a recreation of the process and a celebration of arts and education
> featuring OBT dancers at First Thursday on July 1st from 6:00-8:00pm
>
> Portland Center Stage Main Lobby
> 128 NW Eleventh Ave
> Portland, OR 97209
>
> Visit the partners:
>
> WK12 <http://wk12.com/>
> Fashionbuddha <http://www.fashionbuddha.com/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From admin at jeffhowden.com  Fri Jun 25 15:09:35 2010
From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:09:35 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Kagan (was: Judge who ruled against offshore
 drilling moratorium invests in oil industry)
In-Reply-To: <4C251C19.000041.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>
	<4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00ba01cb14a8$8ca49a50$a5edcef0$@com>
	<4C251C19.000041.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <00cf01cb14b3$19617530$4c245f90$@com>

Don,

> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
> 
> I don't know about you Jeff, but I don't need proof
> of what I saw and heard.

Acknowledging you don't need proof for yourself is fine.  However, when you
come into public forum and make accusations, it's best to come prepared lest
you sound like crazy town crier or the boy who cried wolf.

> I am neither blind nor deaf nor stupid.

I don't think anyone has suggested that you were any of those things.

> What the professor said was true (given a couple
> of points I never saw before, I digress), but
> everyone who saw it in the news over the past 1+
> years, know it is true,.........he did what it
> looked like he did, and he did what he said he
> did, and he did much more than the professor said
> he did, [...]



> [...] bowing before the Emperor of Japan for a
> tiny percentage of that.

Bowing is a sign of respect.  It's akin to shaking someone's hand here.  I
fail to see the issue with it.

Would you prefer that he come off as rude, callous, and disinterested in
them and their culture and rituals?  How loudly would you scream if a
foreign leader visited here and refused to shake our leader's hand?

One of the commenters on an LA Times piece about this incident spoke quite
eloquently on the matter:

"While I cannot expect refinement in coming up with
 attention-grabbing headlines, the phrasing of the
 headline may mislead people into believing that
 observing the custom of greeting Emperor Akihito in
 this way can be simplistically reduced to a show of
 obsequiousness. In fact, bowing is a highly ritualized
 and ubiquitous form of salutation shared with at least
 two other countries (North and South Korea), and the
 non-observance of the custom of bowing can connote
 unfamiliarity, inattention, or at worst, overt
 disrespect. In Korean culture, we bow to people we
 recognize every time we see them and want to say hello
 or part ways--it takes getting used to, and it certainly
 feels a great deal more formalized than saying "Hi, how
 are you", but it can be compared to the custom among
 Muslims of saying "Al-salaamu `aleykum" and "Wa `aleykum
 al-salaam" in response (and "ma` al-salaama" in the case
 of parting). If two people pass by one another without
 bowing, they may not be familiar or they may not be
 paying attention, but if they do know each other, it is
 disrespectful not to bow. Furthermore, if one is meeting
 an elder on a formal occasion, especially at first
 introduction, not bowing would be insulting and humiliating
 to the elder party and it would be like the younger party
 is openly calling for a fight. It would be almost like being
 introduced to Mr. Obama and then greeting him with "Hi,
 Negro," or "Hi, half-breed." Another way of understanding
 what it would be like is if a person from a culture where
 people always greet each other casually by sticking up a
 middle finger at each other greeted Mr. Obama in this way.
 If that culture were one that had been antagonized by the
 U.S. at some point, and then that people from that culture
 became economically and militarily powerful and culturally
 influential, then everyone from that dominant culture would
 wonder what's the big problem with middle fingers, and they
 would consider it demeaning to shake hands with a previously
 hegemonic power like the U.S.!"

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-jap
an.html#comment-6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a69e35e6970b

> Obama's mind set is his.......we don't know what that is.

Exactly!

> What kind of proof do you need, beyond your eyes
> and ears?

My eyes did not see, nor did my ears hear the things you claim to have
happened.

> Your eyes and ears are sufficient in any court of
> law, are they not?

No, actually, they are not and have been found to be lacking in many a study
about the ability of the human mind to recall the facts of a situation (in
whole, not in part).  They are only sufficient in a court of law if the
bearer of those body parts has been found to be credible and of adequate
integrity to report what they witnessed truthfully and fully.

Jeff



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 15:13:32 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:13:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin8vCGJrVBK_343GqPQT8HVvY6NZFplnXW60k5l@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DEFF2F0EEFB4EC8A031114ED0EF6C71@GeriPC>

Jim, take all of what you say, then add this:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_42/b4005059.htm


... and I think that adds up to 'boondoggle.'  ;-)



Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:46 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD
"late start"

> Kristy,
>
> In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
> boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals
> of
> raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
> implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
> backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
> broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
> "teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well
> rounded
> education in this country. While millions of dollars and teacher hours are
> spent preparing students to take performance tests, creative teaching
> strategies and innovative approaches to teaching subjects both in and
> outside of math, reading and writing have all but disappeared. Subjects
> like
> social studies, geography, history, music and others have been given
> little
> or no consideration resulting in many schools dropping them all together
> (even though they are still mandated by State curriculum guidelines).
>
> While schools around the country are suffering for severe economic
> paralysis, schools are being asked to do more with less (thanks, in part,
> to
> the cut-out-the-fat, anti-tax advocates). And not only are schools
> struggling to stay afloat financially, they are now burdened with the
> additional pressure of improving testing scores or face even further
> economic sanctions in the form of reduced federal aid. No wonder the
> system's such a mess. You are right to feel fortunate not to be part of
> this
> deepening quagmire in educational reform.
>
> jimz
>
> PS: Sorry if this post is a repeat, but the first time I sent it it didn't
> show up.
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Kristy Gravlin
> <hannah at teleport.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > A
>> > fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to meet
>> > them.
>>
>> Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and
>> what
>> variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that
>> reading
>> and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children will
>> learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that there
>> is
>> nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
>> stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people
>> who
>> thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
>> six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
>> required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page
>> long
>> speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The
>> group,
>> as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the
>> NCLB
>> group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in
>> purring
>> on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 15:57:00 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:57:00 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD "late start"
In-Reply-To: <5DEFF2F0EEFB4EC8A031114ED0EF6C71@GeriPC>
References: <AANLkTin8vCGJrVBK_343GqPQT8HVvY6NZFplnXW60k5l@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>
	<5DEFF2F0EEFB4EC8A031114ED0EF6C71@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <07569BD3A7F949F28944F599E1CB1418@JeffVAIO>

Thanks Geri!  Although the article was from a while back, it helps to 
understand the connections.
So incredibly sad to see our dollars wasted in this way.  Profit making at 
it's worst!

I understand the value in collecting data and it is a good idea to have all 
american children equitably educated.  But the way NCLB was implemented (or 
not), was absolutely abysmal.

marian
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:13 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD 
"late start"

> Jim, take all of what you say, then add this:
>
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_42/b4005059.htm
>
>
> ... and I think that adds up to 'boondoggle.'  ;-)
>
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 2:46 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD
> "late start"
>
>> Kristy,
>>
>> In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
>> boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals
>> of
>> raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
>> implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
>> backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
>> broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
>> "teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well
>> rounded
>> education in this country. While millions of dollars and teacher hours 
>> are
>> spent preparing students to take performance tests, creative teaching
>> strategies and innovative approaches to teaching subjects both in and
>> outside of math, reading and writing have all but disappeared. Subjects
>> like
>> social studies, geography, history, music and others have been given
>> little
>> or no consideration resulting in many schools dropping them all together
>> (even though they are still mandated by State curriculum guidelines).
>>
>> While schools around the country are suffering for severe economic
>> paralysis, schools are being asked to do more with less (thanks, in part,
>> to
>> the cut-out-the-fat, anti-tax advocates). And not only are schools
>> struggling to stay afloat financially, they are now burdened with the
>> additional pressure of improving testing scores or face even further
>> economic sanctions in the form of reduced federal aid. No wonder the
>> system's such a mess. You are right to feel fortunate not to be part of
>> this
>> deepening quagmire in educational reform.
>>
>> jimz
>>
>> PS: Sorry if this post is a repeat, but the first time I sent it it 
>> didn't
>> show up.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Kristy Gravlin
>> <hannah at teleport.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/25/10 1:36 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > A
>>> > fine example of a program with lofty goals and little resources to 
>>> > meet
>>> > them.
>>>
>>> Not only lofty goals but no sense at all about how children learn and
>>> what
>>> variety of topics are both appropriate and important. To think that
>>> reading
>>> and math might be learned in such a strict fashion that all children 
>>> will
>>> learn to read "cat" on the same day is beyond stupid. To think that 
>>> there
>>> is
>>> nothing of import to learn besides reading "cat" is even further beyond
>>> stupid!  I am enormously glad that I missed this plan created by people
>>> who
>>> thought it would look good to force all children who were five to do
>>> six-and-a-half-year-old lessons. What if all of the grovenetters were
>>> required to read and recite...and test well...on one of our three-page
>>> long
>>> speeches? And it wouldn't matter which one of us did the writing. The
>>> group,
>>> as a whole, would not do identically well. That is what is asked by the
>>> NCLB
>>> group. It's like asking a varied group of animals to all get an A in
>>> purring
>>> on the second week of the fourth month. Kristy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet 



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Fri Jun 25 16:54:07 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 16:54:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
	Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD	"late start"
In-Reply-To: Kristy Gravlin <hannah@teleport.com>'s message of Fri,
	25 Jun	2010 16:55:44 -0500
Message-ID: <22581-4C25419F-1409@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Kristy.. would you ask Geri to forward the message I sent to her,
Marion, and which I tried to send to you.

by the bye .. this ain't no spam!

-------------- next part --------------
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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 25 17:49:47 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:49:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] No Child Left Behind,
 Boon or Boondoggle? was FGSD 	"late start"
In-Reply-To: <C84A9010.17528%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <AANLkTinyEtmCOyEJfxhAWunj1okHBNxA3hK539jBUq-1@mail.gmail.com>
	<C84A9010.17528%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5DUfBueR05mnRYfr2VVuXdqHilu92KER0npY3@mail.gmail.com>

Kristy,

I'm not a public school teacher, tho my wife was a career educator who had
to suffer through the first couple of years of the implementation strategy
before she retired, (so I know the pain and loss of effective educational
techniques vicariously through her). Ironically, NCLB was shepherded by none
other than Sen. Ted Kennedy. He worked very hard for years to get the bill
passed and did so just as Bush took office in 2001. Unfortunately, once in
Bush's hands, the program went quickly to hell in a hand basket. The Bush
administration pushed it, but didn't fund it at nearly the levels required.
Ted Kennedy was later to voice his disapproval of the way the bill was
(under) funded.

Here is a little background gleaned from Wikipedia about the funding
shortfalls:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Funding

Several provisions of NCLB, such as a push for quality teachers and more
professional development, place additional demands on local districts and
state education agencies. Some critics claim that extra expenses are not
fully reimbursed by increased levels of federal NCLB funding. Others note
that funding for the law increased massively following
passage[56]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-55>and
that billions in funds previously allocated to particular uses could
be
reallocated to new uses. Even before the law's passage, Secretary of
Education Rod Paige noted ensuring that children are educated remained a
state responsibility regardless of federal support:

Washington is willing to help [with the additional costs of federal
requirements], as we've helped before, even before we [proposed NCLB]. But
this is a part of the teaching responsibility that each state has. ...
Washington has offered some assistance now. In the legislation, we have ...
some support to pay for the development of tests. But even if that should be
looked at as a gift, it is the state responsibility to do this.
?[57] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-56>

Various early Democratic supporters of NCLB criticize its implementation,
claiming it is not adequately funded by either the federal government or the
states. Ted Kennedy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy>, the
legislation's initial sponsor, once stated: "The tragedy is that these long
overdue reforms are finally in place, but the funds are
not."[58]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-57>
Susan
B. Neuman <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Neuman>, U.S. Department of
Education's former Assistant Secretary for Elementary and Secondary
Education, commented about her worries of NCLB in a meeting of the
International
Reading Association<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Reading_Association>
:

In [the most disadvantaged schools] in America, even the most earnest
teacher has often given up because they lack every available resource that
could possibly make a difference. . . . When we say all children can achieve
and then not give them the additional resources ? we are creating a fantasy.
?[59] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-58>

Organizations have particularly criticized the unwillingness of the federal
government to "fully fund" the act. Noting that appropriations bills always
originate in the House of
Representatives<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives#Legislative_functions>,
it is true that during the Bush Administration, neither the Senate nor the
White House has even requested federal funding up to the authorized levels
for several of the act?s main provisions. For example, President
Bush<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush>requested only $13.3
of a possible $22.75 billion in 2006.
[60] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-59>Advocacy
groups note that President Bush's 2008 budget proposal allotted $61
billion for the Education Department, cutting funding by $1.3 billion from
the year before. 44 out of 50 states would have received reductions in
federal funding if the budget passed as it
was.[61]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act#cite_note-60>Title
I <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_and_Secondary_Education_Act>,
including his final 2009 budget proposal. Specifically, funding for the
Enhancing Education Through Technology Program (EETT) has continued to drop
while the demand for technology in schools has increased (Technology and
Learning, 2006). However, these claims focused on reallocated funds, as each
of President Bush's proposed budgets increased funding for major NCLB
formula programs such as

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What it gets down to is that the feds created demands that could not be met
with what funding they made available. As a result, states had to cough up
some of their own money to implement it. The jagged sword in this instance
is the fact that if a state school district repeatedly fails to show
performance improvements (say, because they can't afford a program to remedy
it), then they get their promised funding hacked to pieces, or no funding at
all. Paradoxical this happens more often in states were the need is greatest
and the funding the least. The penalty sections of this bill is ridiculous,
especially in light of the poor economic climate, and anti-tax advocates
screaming to high heavens every time a new educational tax levy is
introduced. So who the heck is going to pay for this mess?

Unfortunately, the answer is our kids. They will pay the price of our errant
ways. They will meander through the system becoming experts at taking tests
and regurgitating facts, but they will have little understanding of what
they've learned. Loss of a more global approach to education will put this
country even further behind other developed nations than it already is. Our
students will become automatons only able to respond to the world in the
same standardized, scripted way they were taught it. In this world it is not
only what you know, it's what you understand that leads to success.

I liken "teach to the test" to learning to recite a speech in a different
language without having to know what any of the words actually mean. Like an
actor mouthing foreign words he was coached to say. It may sound like he
knows what he's saying, but in reality he hasn't a clue. This isn't the way
I would want my child to be taught about the world.

jimz



On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Kristy Gravlin <hannah at teleport.com> wrote:

> There are some comments I'd gladly listen to twice! You must have been
> there
> and done better!  Kristy
>
>
> On 6/25/10 4:46 PM, "Jim Zaleski" <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Kristy,
> >
> > In the grand scheme of things, NCLB appears to be one of the biggest
> > boondoggles in the history of education in this country. While it's goals
> of
> > raising the performance level of all students are commendable, it's
> > implementation strategies have had, in my opinion, a massive negative
> > backlash to our education system in general. The paradigm shift from
> > broad-based, diverse, content-rich curricula, to a narrow,
> > "teach-to-the-test" mindset has all but gutted the concept of a well
> rounded
> > education in this country.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 20:33:37 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:33:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Kagan
In-Reply-To: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <89E5C98F-17BA-4417-8AF3-3ECDEAEC2940@verizon.net>

Interesting that a Supreme Court that believes in judicial activism in favor of corporations is considered to be "strict Constitutionalist" by this group.  I would like another justice who believes that corporations are creations of government and subject to the strictly limited legal rights as our founding fathers understood them.  Not another Kennedy, Alito or Roberts who believe that corporations are "persons" with the same rights as humans.

David

On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:02 PM, donkelly wrote:

> http://www.capwiz.com/afanet/issues/alert/?alertid=15179166&type=CO
> 
> If you sometimes feel frustrated and feel your voice is not heard in the halls of congress, here is your chance for your opinion to be heard about latest judge to be nominated for the supreme court of the land. The pros are few and the cons are endless.
> 
> Don



From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 20:38:49 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:38:49 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
Message-ID: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>

If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great  
show tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a  
partial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )

Katie


http://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu


From edavie at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 20:42:12 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:42:12 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge Kagan
In-Reply-To: <89E5C98F-17BA-4417-8AF3-3ECDEAEC2940@verizon.net>
References: <4C250B3C.000018.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<89E5C98F-17BA-4417-8AF3-3ECDEAEC2940@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <F529C4958AD64E23A3096EA814CAB6DE@EdDaviePC>

I think she's just exactly what we need on the court!
Ed




From: David Morelli 
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:33 PM
To: donkelly ; Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Judge Kagan


Interesting that a Supreme Court that believes in judicial activism in favor of corporations is considered to be "strict Constitutionalist" by this group.  I would like another justice who believes that corporations are creations of government and subject to the strictly limited legal rights as our founding fathers understood them.  Not another Kennedy, Alito or Roberts who believe that corporations are "persons" with the same rights as humans.

David

On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:02 PM, donkelly wrote:

> http://www.capwiz.com/afanet/issues/alert/?alertid=15179166&type=CO
> 
> If you sometimes feel frustrated and feel your voice is not heard in the halls of congress, here is your chance for your opinion to be heard about latest judge to be nominated for the supreme court of the land. The pros are few and the cons are endless.
> 
> Don


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 20:42:34 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9671887A3E3D4F32B2AB04F53B8F3FEF@GeriPC>

Thanks for the heads-up, Katie. : )  It has been beautifully clear lately, 
hasn't it?


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:38 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse

> If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
> show tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
> partial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
>
> Katie
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From nuzriter at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 20:44:09 2010
From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:44:09 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8CCE2F8F83AEAC5-1070-7175@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>

apparently it will last about three hours for those who want to get up a little later...I'll be in the back yard around 4:30am for what could be optimal viewing...


Linda 





-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse


If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great  
how tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a  
artial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
Katie

ttp://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
_______________________________________________
roveNet mailing list
roveNet at rdrop.com
ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 20:47:23 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:47:23 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <8CCE2F8F83AEAC5-1070-7175@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
	<8CCE2F8F83AEAC5-1070-7175@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <65C9129F43CC4E3BA17BA0B960D6C911@GeriPC>

Sounds good, Linda!
(I often wake up anywhere between 3 AM & 5 AM, then grump about it... but if 
it happens this coming morning, I won't. ;-] )

Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: <nuzriter at aol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:44 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse

> apparently it will last about three hours for those who want to get up a 
> little later...I'll be in the back yard around 4:30am for what could be 
> optimal viewing...
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm
> Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
>
>
> If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
> how tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
> artial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
> Katie
>
> ttp://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
> _______________________________________________
> roveNet mailing list
> roveNet at rdrop.com
> ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From nuzriter at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 20:49:26 2010
From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:49:26 -0400
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <65C9129F43CC4E3BA17BA0B960D6C911@GeriPC>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net><8CCE2F8F83AEAC5-1070-7175@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
	<65C9129F43CC4E3BA17BA0B960D6C911@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <8CCE2F9B51E15DF-1070-71CF@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>

I'll wave Forest Grove way at 4:30...


Linda 



-----Original Message-----
From: Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse


Sounds good, Linda!
I often wake up anywhere between 3 AM & 5 AM, then grump about it... but if 
t happens this coming morning, I won't. ;-] )
Geri
--------------------------------------------------
rom: <nuzriter at aol.com>
ent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:44 PM
o: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
ubject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
> apparently it will last about three hours for those who want to get up a 
 little later...I'll be in the back yard around 4:30am for what could be 
 optimal viewing...


 Linda





 -----Original Message-----
 From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
 To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
 Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm
 Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse


 If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
 how tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
 artial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
 Katie

 ttp://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
 _______________________________________________
 roveNet mailing list
 roveNet at rdrop.com
 ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

 _______________________________________________
 GroveNet mailing list
 GroveNet at rdrop.com
 http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 

______________________________________________
roveNet mailing list
roveNet at rdrop.com
ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 20:54:01 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 20:54:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <8CCE2F9B51E15DF-1070-71CF@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net><8CCE2F8F83AEAC5-1070-7175@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com><65C9129F43CC4E3BA17BA0B960D6C911@GeriPC>
	<8CCE2F9B51E15DF-1070-71CF@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4A3BB8124C5C4EE5925F1B5C1D8F5CFC@GeriPC>

LOL! Back at ya ~


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: <nuzriter at aol.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:49 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse

> I'll wave Forest Grove way at 4:30...
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:47 pm
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
>
>
> Sounds good, Linda!
> I often wake up anywhere between 3 AM & 5 AM, then grump about it... but 
> if
> t happens this coming morning, I won't. ;-] )
> Geri
> --------------------------------------------------
> rom: <nuzriter at aol.com>
> ent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:44 PM
> o: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> ubject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
>> apparently it will last about three hours for those who want to get up a
> little later...I'll be in the back yard around 4:30am for what could be
> optimal viewing...
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Katie Allnutt <allnutt at verizon.net>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jun 25, 2010 8:38 pm
> Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
>
>
> If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
> how tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
> artial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
> Katie
>
> ttp://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
> _______________________________________________
> roveNet mailing list
> roveNet at rdrop.com
> ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> roveNet mailing list
> roveNet at rdrop.com
> ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 21:14:42 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:14:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Judge who ruled against
	offshoredrillingmoratoriuminvests in oil industry
In-Reply-To: <4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>
	<4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <45DF7D0D-5B91-4CA1-B68C-D2332D63570C@verizon.net>

"Did the President do those things or did he not?"

Was the President conceived by a muslim father?  Yes, but in all honesty, he was a recipient and not an active participant in that event.

Did the President talk with his half-sisters or half-brothers?  I know this is shocking, but yes he did.  So what?  You talk to me.  Is that an accurate predictor of what you are thinking?

Is the President working to change America's relation to the world?  Yes he is working on better relations with Russia, Africa, Middle East, China, America.  The professor would appear to prefer that we be in perpetual war like Israel.

Is the President working to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons?  Yes he is.  For some reason the professor opposes that.

Is the government strengthening sanctions against Iran?  Yes they are.  For some reason the professor was unaware of that.

Did President Obama return the bust of Churchill?  Yes, he did.  How could that be a serious issue?  As a "OKelly" would you allow a bust of Cromwell in your home?

Did President Obama bow when greeting the King of Saudi Arabia?  You make a bid deal of it, while writing off Bush's kisses as old news.  How about equal play for equal actions?  Either they are both big deals, or they are both "ho hum".  I vote for the ho-hum.

Is the President trying to destroy Israel?  There is no evidence to support that perspective.  Israel gets more military aid than everyone else.

So, did the President do those things or did he not?  

He didn't destroy Israel.  And he is not working for the destruction of Israel.

What else has you in a lather?  Do you want Iran to have nuclear weapons?  

Do you want the bust of Churchill?

David




On Jun 25, 2010, at 2:18 AM, donkelly wrote:

> ...
> What the Professor said can be condensed into two questions, did the president do those things or did he not.
> ...
> It appears that about 98% of the events the professor cited had already been recorded in reliable written and visual media, media I'll bet we all saw. 
> ...
> Just keep it simple and it's easier to understand. Also, blame Bush is a very time worn Cop Out. 
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 21:23:54 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:23:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
In-Reply-To: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>

Pity, that we have an elected official who believes that official birth certificates have a baby's foot print.  I guess we must allow for ignorance.

David

On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:14 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Discussions in congress include things some citizens don't care about, or even want to know.
> 
> http://www.westernjournalism.com/lack-of-obama-birth-certificate-questioned-during-us-house-debate/
> 
> Don



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 21:31:25 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:31:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
In-Reply-To: <009801cb14a6$57f39920$07dacb60$@com>
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<009801cb14a6$57f39920$07dacb60$@com>
Message-ID: <BA4E903A-0FD3-47EB-ACE4-AF164A2C8A91@verizon.net>

The links didn't work for me.

David

On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Jeff Howden wrote:

> ...
> House Resolution 593 already dealt with this issue and was passed unanimously.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2awm69r
> 
> 
> Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa had an opportunity to vote no or abstain, but he did not.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2fc7r49
> 
> Jeff



From allnutt at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 21:41:03 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:41:03 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
In-Reply-To: <A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <33A89DDE-26DF-48B4-A00C-9F4C725D96AB@verizon.net>

Maybe he should be required to show us the foot print on his own  
birth certificate...

Katie

On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:23 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> Pity, that we have an elected official who believes that official  
> birth certificates have a baby's foot print.  I guess we must allow  
> for ignorance.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:14 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Discussions in congress include things some citizens don't care  
>> about, or even want to know.
>>
>> http://www.westernjournalism.com/lack-of-obama-birth-certificate- 
>> questioned-during-us-house-debate/
>>
>> Don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 21:59:18 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:59:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
In-Reply-To: <33A89DDE-26DF-48B4-A00C-9F4C725D96AB@verizon.net>
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>
	<33A89DDE-26DF-48B4-A00C-9F4C725D96AB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <B1449E69-9D68-45BC-8474-4827D0653CFE@verizon.net>

It isn't there.  The birth is recorded in an official ledger somewhere, either paper or electronic database.  The data may be taken from a paper document that was provided to the bureau of statistics by a hospital, doctor, midwife, or adult witnesses, but the document may or may not be retained as a physical object.  

When a request is made for a "birth certificate" a document is created from the official ledger, or a copy is made from the filing document.  And the document is "certified" to be an accurate representation of the facts of the birth.  It may be created by a photo copy of something, or it may be electronically printed from the electronic database.  Copies produced from a ledger would be hand typed at the time of the request without any foot print.  Copies printed from an electronic database would not have any photograph of a foot print.  The closest example of his expectations would be birth documents that were physical photostats and were delivered as a photo copy.  That would describe a limited slice of time.

David


On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> Maybe he should be required to show us the foot print on his own birth certificate...
> 
> Katie



From waltw at teleport.com  Fri Jun 25 22:18:37 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:18:37 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
In-Reply-To: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <F953A639-6336-48D3-B445-DE90FEC6697C@teleport.com>

Fawgeddaboudit! I've been up since 5 A.M., And at 3:15 I'm gonna be  
pounding my ear.
WW
On Jun 25, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:

> If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
> show tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
> partial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
>
> Katie
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Fri Jun 25 23:12:48 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:12:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) Telling it like it is
In-Reply-To: <4C2476D9.00001A.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <4C2476D9.00001A.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <E8914045-AB77-4791-A9D2-5AAF2EA0E0D2@verizon.net>

The congressman tells it like it is ... without checking to see what the words mean.

He claimed that Gaza can survive on 10,000 tons of materials per day.

With a population of 1.4 million, that averages about 14 pounds of materials per person per day.  

If you bake, it is a gallon of milk and a bag of flour.
If you are a taxi driver, it is one trip from Forest Grove to Portland and back.
If you are in construction, it is 1/2 of a concrete block.
If you are at a hospital it is 2 gallons of electrical generator fuel.
if you are in retail, it is one florescent light fixture.
if you are in home repair, it is one 18" x 24" piece of 3/8" glass.

David


On Jun 25, 2010, at 2:28 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Since Israel is in the current news, this congressman tells it like it is.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c09RyJC0JqI
> 
> Thanks all, I hope you enjoy reality, and have a good night.
> 
> Don



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 00:45:29 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:45:29 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) Economic Crisis summit
Message-ID: <4C25B00D.000011.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Can our national debt inflate to 20 trillion dollars?

Yes it can........and probably will, unless the American people stand up and
say No.

Has the social security account for all Americans been robbed.

Yes it has, all there is in that account is an IOU.

Blame Reid? Yes. That's one reason why he has to go. Nevada can no longer
afford his help.

But bad as America is today, with conservative leadership, America can be
saved.

http://w3.newsmax.com/newsletters/hci/hci001b.cfm?s=al&promo_code=A272-1
 
http://w3.newsmax.com/newsletters/hci/hci001b.cfm?s=al&promo_code=A272-1

Donkelly
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Fri Jun 25 14:03:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:03:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
References: <004801cb149e$d9fbb090$8df311b0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C251988.000038.03448@DON-B2514E06367>

Great and heartwarming story Jeff. My kindergarten teacher after the third
day in class removed me from the class and sent me home with a note pinned
to my jacket. 

But that is another disinterestedly story.

Developing new ways to teach? ..................that is outstanding.

Don

 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 6/25/2010 12:44:54 PM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: [Grovenet] WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
 
WK12 Partners With OBT to Create a Ballet Font
http://www.obt.org/news_links/features/WK12_fontproject_06-10.html
 
While looking for inspiration, a team at WK12 (an experimental agency based
within the  Wieden + Kennedy advertising firm) came across a story about a
young girl who needed to move in order to learn. As team member Rachel Mays
explains:
 
". In first grade, Paula Jones was assessed as 'learning disabled.' By sixth
grade she was still at the first grade reading level when one empathetic
teacher recognized her poise and graceful movements. This teacher encouraged
Paula to go home and spell out the alphabet using her arms and legs as
though she were a ballerina. Paula came in the very next morning dancing the
letters and then sequencing all 26 into a unified performance. Within a week
she moved from dancing words to writing them.  By the end of 6th grade she
was reading and writing at grade level. And the following year a 'learning
disabled' Paula earned above-average grades. "
 
Moved by Paula's story, WK12 set out to create a computer font based on
ballet and contacted OBT for help. Always up for a challenge, Soloist
Candace Bouchard choreographed the movements that would create each letter
of the alphabet. Armed with LED lights and technical skills from
Fashionbuddha, a WK12 team moved into the OBT studios for 3 days to capture
the raw footage. Company Artists Grace Shibley and Lucas Threefoot spent the
days with LEDs taped to their arms and feet, tracking their every movement
as they traced out Candice's letters with their bodies. Using animation
software and the data collected from the LED lights, the pathway from the
letters will form a usable typeface.
 
In the words of Rachel Mays, "This font is a tribute to all those kids who
were told to sit still and pay attention when, in fact, they just needed to
move to think."
 
See a recreation of the process and a celebration of arts and education
featuring OBT dancers at First Thursday on July 1st from 6:00-8:00pm
 
Portland Center Stage Main Lobby
128 NW Eleventh Ave
Portland, OR 97209
 
Visit the partners:
 
WK12 <http://wk12.com/>
Fashionbuddha <http://www.fashionbuddha.com/>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 00:54:58 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:54:58 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
References: <00468758-4926-4AC9-A4CA-10A0F17AC5AC@verizon.net>
	<F953A639-6336-48D3-B445-DE90FEC6697C@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C25B24D.000014.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Durn, I was working and missed it. As it was last night, the moon among dark
clouds is beautiful.

But about a month ago the moon appeared with a halo around it.

It was beautiful, yet haunting. My son in law called to tell me it was
happening.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Walt Wentz
Date: 06/25/10 22:17:39
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lunar Eclipse
 
Fawgeddaboudit! I've been up since 5 A.M., And at 3:15 I'm gonna be
pounding my ear.
WW
On Jun 25, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
 
> If anybody else out there is an occasional insomniac there is a great
> show tonight in the heavens.  About 3:15 our time there will be a
> partial lunar eclipse and if our clear skies hold we can see it.  : )
>
> Katie
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28k8tbu
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 01:12:41 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:12:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>
	<33A89DDE-26DF-48B4-A00C-9F4C725D96AB@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C25B679.000019.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

The Kenya document with the foot print was spotted as a fraud in three
seconds flat.

Kenya uses England's method for weights and measures, not inches and pounds.


It should not have gained one ounce of credibility, let alone given
honorable mention today.

Don   
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Katie Allnutt
Date: 06/25/10 21:41:26
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,don't visit the
news site.
 
Maybe he should be required to show us the foot print on his own
birth certificate...
 
Katie
 
On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:23 PM, David Morelli wrote:
 
> Pity, that we have an elected official who believes that official
> birth certificates have a baby's foot print.  I guess we must allow
> for ignorance.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 25, 2010, at 1:14 PM, donkelly wrote:
>
>> Discussions in congress include things some citizens don't care
>> about, or even want to know.
>>
>> http://www.westernjournalism.com/lack-of-obama-birth-certificate-
>> questioned-during-us-house-debate/
>>
>> Don
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 01:24:26 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:24:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Kagan (was: Judge who ruled against offshore
 drilling moratorium invests in oil industry)
References: <307339753-1277352650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1191651731-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinY-PlSVH8Y65qVmfo-NwharreDlKpd8I_2JLmy@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE1D6E5F35749-488-70B@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<D60FD629-1635-4995-8622-5EF9CD69FC52@verizon.net>	<4C247462.00000E.02516@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00ba01cb14a8$8ca49a50$a5edcef0$@com>	<4C251C19.000041.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00cf01cb14b3$19617530$4c245f90$@com>
Message-ID: <4C25B931.000020.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

I think there must be a difference between bowing the head and tipping the
hat, as normal protocall in Japan, than that of executing a full bow.

Perhaps Obama did not know that, another quatro de mayo, or quatro de cinco,
stammer, stammer?

The emperor seemed quite surprised by that bow.......even to the point of
being confused.

Why defend the President for that act? He didn't defend himself that I know
of.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/25/10 15:09:47
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Kagan (was: Judge who ruled against offshore
drilling moratorium invests in oil industry)
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> I don't know about you Jeff, but I don't need proof
> of what I saw and heard.
 
Acknowledging you don't need proof for yourself is fine.  However, when you
come into public forum and make accusations, it's best to come prepared lest
you sound like crazy town crier or the boy who cried wolf.
 
> I am neither blind nor deaf nor stupid.
 
I don't think anyone has suggested that you were any of those things.
 
> What the professor said was true (given a couple
> of points I never saw before, I digress), but
> everyone who saw it in the news over the past 1+
> years, know it is true,.........he did what it
> looked like he did, and he did what he said he
> did, and he did much more than the professor said
> he did, [...]
 
 
 
> [...] bowing before the Emperor of Japan for a
> tiny percentage of that.
 
Bowing is a sign of respect.  It's akin to shaking someone's hand here.  I
fail to see the issue with it.
 
Would you prefer that he come off as rude, callous, and disinterested in
them and their culture and rituals?  How loudly would you scream if a
foreign leader visited here and refused to shake our leader's hand?
 
One of the commenters on an LA Times piece about this incident spoke quite
eloquently on the matter:
 
"While I cannot expect refinement in coming up with
  attention-grabbing headlines, the phrasing of the
  headline may mislead people into believing that
  observing the custom of greeting Emperor Akihito in
  this way can be simplistically reduced to a show of
  obsequiousness. In fact, bowing is a highly ritualized
  and ubiquitous form of salutation shared with at least
  two other countries (North and South Korea), and the
  non-observance of the custom of bowing can connote
  unfamiliarity, inattention, or at worst, overt
  disrespect. In Korean culture, we bow to people we
  recognize every time we see them and want to say hello
  or part ways--it takes getting used to, and it certainly
  feels a great deal more formalized than saying "Hi, how
  are you", but it can be compared to the custom among
  Muslims of saying "Al-salaamu `aleykum" and "Wa `aleykum
  al-salaam" in response (and "ma` al-salaama" in the case
  of parting). If two people pass by one another without
  bowing, they may not be familiar or they may not be
  paying attention, but if they do know each other, it is
  disrespectful not to bow. Furthermore, if one is meeting
  an elder on a formal occasion, especially at first
  introduction, not bowing would be insulting and humiliating
  to the elder party and it would be like the younger party
  is openly calling for a fight. It would be almost like being
  introduced to Mr. Obama and then greeting him with "Hi,
  Negro," or "Hi, half-breed." Another way of understanding
  what it would be like is if a person from a culture where
  people always greet each other casually by sticking up a
  middle finger at each other greeted Mr. Obama in this way.
  If that culture were one that had been antagonized by the
  U.S. at some point, and then that people from that culture
  became economically and militarily powerful and culturally
  influential, then everyone from that dominant culture would
  wonder what's the big problem with middle fingers, and they
  would consider it demeaning to shake hands with a previously
  hegemonic power like the U.S.!"
 
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-jap
an.html#comment-6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a69e35e6970b
 
> Obama's mind set is his.......we don't know what that is.
 
Exactly!
 
> What kind of proof do you need, beyond your eyes
> and ears?
 
My eyes did not see, nor did my ears hear the things you claim to have
happened.
 
> Your eyes and ears are sufficient in any court of
> law, are they not?
 
No, actually, they are not and have been found to be lacking in many a study
about the ability of the human mind to recall the facts of a situation (in
whole, not in part).  They are only sufficient in a court of law if the
bearer of those body parts has been found to be credible and of adequate
integrity to report what they witnessed truthfully and fully.
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 01:27:08 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:27:08 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
References: <37740543.7546391277407625426.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8CCE1F3D5AA7FB6-488-31B8@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<005b01cb13e5$7794a560$66bdf020$@com>	<8CCE208841602C4-488-4B6E@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>
	<4C247B7E.00001F.02516@DON-B2514E06367>	<006401cb14a1$b3df5800$1b9e0800$@com>
	<4C251845.000031.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<00c601cb14ab$2cc285e0$864791a0$@com>
Message-ID: <4C25B9DC.000023.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Who decides which? Wouldn't want to insult you, or appear to insult you.

Fact, we both saw it and saw it the same way. But you take issue like it
didn't happen at all. 

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jeff Howden
Date: 06/25/10 14:20:35
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Is NewsMax reliable news?
 
Don,
 
> From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net]
>
> I'll just let the weather of your comments speak for
> itself Jeff.
 
Sunny with a chance of meatballs?
 
> But there issues there in those bullets that could
> be discussed.
 
I agree.  I'd prefer to stick to the ones based on fact and not discuss the
ones based on fear, falsities, or fallacies.
 
> One example, her voting record and associated
> historical comments.
 
Yes, that'd be the fact-based ones to discuss.
 
> Best question is: Do we need another judge who thinks
> the constitution is invalid?
 
Let's start with asking:
 
Where do you get the idea that she believes the constitution is invalid?
 
Jeff
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 02:07:22 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:07:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Somali Pirates meet efficient Russian  justice.
Message-ID: <4C25C34A.000032.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

One need to understand very little Russian to figure out what is happening
on the pirate ship.

Bet the pirates do not dare to capture another Russian tanker.

http://true-turtle.livejournal.com/85315.html

Don  
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 02:13:19 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:13:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Wlmitch1 replied to your comment on Video:Lack of
 Obama Birth Certificate Questioned during US House Debate
Message-ID: <4C25C4AC.000038.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Everyone is not convinced. How long until the truth will finally out.
Hanging by a thread, or a fingernail?

Don
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bob Velon
Date: 6/25/2010 8:50:11 PM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:,
Subject: Fw: Wlmitch1 replied to your comment on Video:Lack of Obama Birth
Certificate Questioned during US House Debate
 
How long before it comes to a head?  Then there is the Mayor of Chicago
telling everyone Obama and Emanual both knew ahout the Senators positon and
he has the tapes of their conversations.  THey intend to bring both of them
into court to explain what they knew and he conversations they had with the
mayor...... Could get very sticky and maybe perjury charges and hopefully
impeachment.......  You can't be a crook all your life and not stick your
head in a noose...
 
To: BobVelon 
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:29 PM
Subject: Wlmitch1 replied to your comment on Video:Lack of Obama Birth
Certificate Questioned during US House Debate


Wlmitch1 replied to your comment on Video:Lack of Obama Birth Certificate
Questioned during US House Debate / Impeach Obama Campaign: 

To be a Natural-born U.S. Citizen, both of one's parents must be either
natural-born or NATURALIZED citizens at the time of one's birth. A
Naturalized U.S. Citizen can either be an immigrant who has become a U.S.
Citizen or one who is born on U.S. soil, one or both of whose parents are
legal resident aliens, but not Naturalized U.S. Citizens.

Under Constutional Law, Barack Hussein Obama II is not a Natural-born U.S.
Citizen, and therefore, not eligible to serve as President of the United
States, even if he was born on U.S. soil. This is because his father was a
Kenyan national, and never a U.S. citizen. His mother, Stanley Ann Dunham,
married Barack Hussein Obama I and left Hawaii with him before Barack
Hussein Obama II was born. She also attempted to renounce her U.S.
Citizenship. In 1961, the age of majority was 21 in Hawaii and most other U
S. States; therefore Dunham-Obama was not old enough to pass U.S.
citizenship on to her son. As Obama I was a Kenyan n ational, and therefore,
a British subject, young Obama II had dual citizenship at best. Obama II IS
now a Naturalized U.S. Citizen, but NOT a Natural-born U.S. Citizen. 
Go to comment 

In reply to your comment:

I really believe there was fraud and perjury committed by the people who put
him on the ballot. I'm sorry but the phony COLB he used as a birth
certificate is something anyone could have received regardless of birthplace
 Who really knows where he was born. The one fact we do know is he was not
born a natural born U.S citizen. You need two U.S born citizens to be
natural born, his father was not a U.S citizen. He was a British subject
making Mr. Obama a dual citizen at birth. That alone disqualified him from
running for president. It appears our constitution means little by the very
people who took an oath to uphold it. It is time to replace every member now
in congress.

- - - 
This email was sent by IntenseDebate, the world's premier commenting system.
Unsubscribe





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2962 - Release Date: 06/24/10
23:35:00

 
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 01:49:03 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:49:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,
	don't visit the news site.
References: <4C250E2D.000029.03448@DON-B2514E06367>
	<A84994A2-FA7B-4BFC-BF50-40515355B0EC@verizon.net>
	<33A89DDE-26DF-48B4-A00C-9F4C725D96AB@verizon.net>
	<B1449E69-9D68-45BC-8474-4827D0653CFE@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4C25BEFF.00002B.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

That's one explanation, but not all. 

It doesn't explain why three documents were broadcast on the Internet, and
all were different.

The way I see it is the Obama group posted one, with the document number
blanked out in the right top of the page, and the other two trying to prove
something, were photo shopped so poorly that few would be fooled by either
one.

And the Kenya one never had a chance. It was so bad.

Don  
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: David Morelli
Date: 06/25/10 22:00:49
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] (GROVENET) If you don't want to know,don't visit the
news site.
 
It isn't there.  The birth is recorded in an official ledger somewhere,
either paper or electronic database.  The data may be taken from a paper
document that was provided to the bureau of statistics by a hospital, doctor
 midwife, or adult witnesses, but the document may or may not be retained as
a physical object.
 
When a request is made for a "birth certificate" a document is created from
the official ledger, or a copy is made from the filing document.  And the
document is "certified" to be an accurate representation of the facts of the
birth.  It may be created by a photo copy of something, or it may be
electronically printed from the electronic database.  Copies produced from a
ledger would be hand typed at the time of the request without any foot print
  Copies printed from an electronic database would not have any photograph
of a foot print.  The closest example of his expectations would be birth
documents that were physical photostats and were delivered as a photo copy. 
That would describe a limited slice of time.
 
David
 
 
On Jun 25, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote:
 
> Maybe he should be required to show us the foot print on his own birth
certificate...
>
> Katie
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 02:30:04 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:30:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: White House welcomes Shariah finance specialist
Message-ID: <4C25C895.00003F.00740@DON-B2514E06367>

Shariah Law. Where have we heard this one before. To not follow Allah is to
be an apostate, and to be an apostate is death. Nice religion that one.

Don 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: WorldNetDaily
Date: 6/25/2010 5:00:08 AM
To: ocollaugh at comcast.net
Subject: White House welcomes Shariah finance specialist
 
Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser. 



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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 12:10:02 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 11:10:02 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
Message-ID: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>

To Jeff and David,

For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling him.
And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a more
adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.

Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
jeopardy.

And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some, I
suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some supporters
who will not think so).

To the membership:

I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you with
my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list these
past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the group
that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!

Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't seem
to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.

In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without some
form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.

jimz

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 12:32:31 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:32:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2655CF.00000E.02088@DON-B2514E06367>

Jeff and David do their homework and provide thought provoking responses to
enhance the learning processes of politics left to right, liberal to
conservative.

Can personal opinion promote censorship? Is censorship OK? 

Is censorship OK depending on who does it? 

Yesterday I posted a link to a collection of post cards, not one ounce
political. 

That was in response to requests for non political dialogue. I am more than
willing to contribute to and respond to other issues whenever I can help.

So censorship or not is not up to me.

Thanks

Don  
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Jim Zaleski
Date: 6/26/2010 12:10:47 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,a general plea to the
list...
 
To Jeff and David,
 
For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling him.
And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a more
adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
 
Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
jeopardy.
 
And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some, I
suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some supporters
who will not think so).
 
To the membership:
 
I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you with
my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list these
past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the group
that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
 
Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't seem
to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
 
In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without some
form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
 
jimz
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From debbratland at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 13:43:34 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:43:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinO3ZhOcYON4Dlqoqf7gzM7dytBMMX5oX5_QvLL@mail.gmail.com>

I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting anything
from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting anything,
because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed I
would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.

Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it seemed
we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.

But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to his
POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my dad's
hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my time
or effort.

Just a newbie opinion -

Deb Bratland

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To Jeff and David,
>
> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
> him.
> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
> more
> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>
> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
> jeopardy.
>
> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some,
> I
> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
> supporters
> who will not think so).
>
> To the membership:
>
> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
> with
> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
> these
> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
> group
> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>
> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
> seem
> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>
> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
> some
> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>
> jimz
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From edavie at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 13:53:19 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:53:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinO3ZhOcYON4Dlqoqf7gzM7dytBMMX5oX5_QvLL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinO3ZhOcYON4Dlqoqf7gzM7dytBMMX5oX5_QvLL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76C6AF124D86491FAC5716C943AE1C90@EdDaviePC>

Well, I was thinking seriously of unsubscribing too but after your post (and Jimz's), maybe I'll wait a while!
Ed



From: Debra Bratland 
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...


I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting anything
from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting anything,
because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed I
would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.

Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it seemed
we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.

But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to his
POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my dad's
hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my time
or effort.

Just a newbie opinion -

Deb Bratland

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To Jeff and David,
>
> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
> him.
> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
> more
> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>
> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
> jeopardy.
>
> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some,
> I
> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
> supporters
> who will not think so).
>
> To the membership:
>
> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
> with
> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
> these
> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
> group
> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>
> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
> seem
> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>
> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
> some
> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>
> jimz
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From edavie at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 13:55:32 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:55:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
Message-ID: <12728F1A48C944BF9014E2C704FC840B@EdDaviePC>

I hate to give Don credit for destroying Grovenet. It's been going too long now!
He too, will fade away.
Ed



From: Ed Davie 
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:53 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...


Well, I was thinking seriously of unsubscribing too but after your post (and Jimz's), maybe I'll wait a while!
Ed



From: Debra Bratland 
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:43 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...


I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting anything
from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting anything,
because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed I
would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.

Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it seemed
we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.

But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to his
POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my dad's
hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my time
or effort.

Just a newbie opinion -

Deb Bratland

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To Jeff and David,
>
> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
> him.
> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
> more
> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>
> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
> jeopardy.
>
> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some,
> I
> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
> supporters
> who will not think so).
>
> To the membership:
>
> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
> with
> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
> these
> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
> group
> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>
> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
> seem
> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>
> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
> some
> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>
> jimz
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From allnutt at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 15:06:55 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:06:55 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Want pretty pictures?
Message-ID: <C1D8061D-B582-45D5-A536-021B4B2A06EB@verizon.net>

Any body have a use for old (unused calendars) with gorgeous pictures  
for kids projects or classroom use?
We are on the mailing list for several charities that send us more  
calendars than we can use.


Katie
(And yes, I know if I save them for 7 years they will be useable  
again but by then I'll have so many my whole house will be at risk of  
collapsing under the weight of all the paper....)


From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 15:33:56 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:33:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <76C6AF124D86491FAC5716C943AE1C90@EdDaviePC>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinO3ZhOcYON4Dlqoqf7gzM7dytBMMX5oX5_QvLL@mail.gmail.com>
	<76C6AF124D86491FAC5716C943AE1C90@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <AB5F166C60B24FE986AACB6A088AC28A@GeriPC>

I'm with you, Jim, Debra, Ed . . .


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:53 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to 
the list...

> Well, I was thinking seriously of unsubscribing too but after your post 
> (and Jimz's), maybe I'll wait a while!
> Ed
>
>
>
> From: Debra Bratland
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:43 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea 
> to the list...
>
>
> I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
> at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
> political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting 
> anything
> from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting 
> anything,
> because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed 
> I
> would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.
>
> Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it 
> seemed
> we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
> I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
> it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.
>
> But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to 
> his
> POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
> is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my 
> dad's
> hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my 
> time
> or effort.
>
> Just a newbie opinion -
>
> Deb Bratland
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To Jeff and David,
>>
>> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
>> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a 
>> range
>> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
>> him.
>> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
>> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
>> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! 
>> And
>> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
>> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
>> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
>> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
>> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
>> more
>> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
>> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to 
>> be
>> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>>
>> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
>> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate 
>> the
>> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
>> jeopardy.
>>
>> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to 
>> read
>> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to 
>> some,
>> I
>> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
>> supporters
>> who will not think so).
>>
>> To the membership:
>>
>> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
>> with
>> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
>> these
>> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may 
>> have
>> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
>> group
>> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
>> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
>> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>>
>> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing 
>> a
>> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
>> seem
>> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>>
>> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
>> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
>> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've 
>> felt
>> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, 
>> then
>> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community 
>> asset,
>> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the 
>> wrong
>> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
>> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that 
>> and
>> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
>> some
>> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>>
>> jimz
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sat Jun 26 15:49:40 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 15:49:40 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea	to the list...
In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" <g-g-steele@comcast.net>'s message of Sat,
	26 Jun 2010 15:33:56 -0700
Message-ID: <14048-4C268404-6150@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

anyone remember when I mentioned what politics does to friendships?  And
as for how I feel about what has been going on as of late ... Phooey! 
Ya know the grove-net has already been demolished once before, and I
would not blame the new ips holder of grove-rdrop to say phooey, and
tell all you children to just gather up all your toys, and go play
some-where else, and shut the grove off again!

-------------- next part --------------
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From dick.lajeunesse at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 26 16:15:32 2010
From: dick.lajeunesse at hotmail.com (Dick LaJeunesse)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:15:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT101-W60EC5196F882798B5EF29CFDC80@phx.gbl>




Wherefore Grovenet


Seeing Jim Z?s posts once again reminds me of the founding
days of Grovenet when the discussions were mostly about local events,
organizations and resources.  The whole
concept grew from the IT folks at Pacific sharing their network with us.  Jim, David, Bob, Bud, Mark, Michael and a few
others here will remember those early days.


Much of what we shared outside the town were links to the wondrous
new world of the internet (there were no sophisticated search engines then).  One of our favorite posters was a librarian
(Kiera K) who provided all of us with a treasure trove of links to amazing
resources and cyber adventures.  We also
gave each other tips and information various local activities and issues.  We shared recommendations for local
businesses and trades people.  We even
started joint projects (like the scarecrow contest at the corn roast).


We searched our cyber-souls often in those days for what a
community forum should be, what rules we should have and how they could be
enforced.  Debates on political issues
gradually made their way onto the list, and they were usually civil and mostly
about local developments.  We left the
forum open in the interest of free speech.


Now and then, the list was commandeered by individuals who
mounted prolific vitriolic attacks on the list, ideas and individuals.  Eventually, the list learned to ignore the
attackers until they tired and left.


At some point, the list branched into broader and more
remote issues and philosophies.  Debates
on National and International issues can be interesting and stimulating ? even between
folks who have little or no direct knowledge 
or influence, but all too often, the debates on little-ole Grovenet
degenerated into nasty ad-hominem attacks, counterattacks and just plain silly
arguments.  The seemingly endless threads
and chat attacks have crowded out the few remaining nuggets of local news and
made them very hard to find. (65 to 95 posts a day??!!). 



 I have remained a ?luker?
on Grovenet during the past few years just to find those occasional nuggets.  I have no particular expertise in most of the
topics raised, nor can I offer any solutions. 
I could only express my opinions, but it is better for me to remain
silent and be thought a fool than to speak and prove it.


Call me old fashioned, na?ve or narrow minded (and some
likely will call me worse than that), but I long  for the days when we could happily chat about
what?s going on in town, share our experiences with local resources and advocate
for local causes with civility and respect. 
I believe that is where chuck is headed with his FG Live blog, and I
wish him well.


Which gets me back to Jim Z ? a gentleman with whom I
disagree on most political issues and for whom I have the utmost respect.   It is
nice to see your posts once again, Jim.  They
have lured me out of my lurker?s lair for one more post.
Dick LaJeunesse


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4

From gritton.family at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 16:35:34 2010
From: gritton.family at comcast.net (gritton.family at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:35:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Grovenet] Should Superman visit Forest Grove?
In-Reply-To: <SNT101-W60EC5196F882798B5EF29CFDC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <752702913.8334161277595334686.JavaMail.root@sz0175a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Hi, Everyone, 

I like to keep up on things back in Utah, and so read the following article which mentions that Portland, OR, (or its environs) is on a list of places "Superman" will be coming to visit over next year. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700042614/Superman-will-visit-Utah-in-new-comic-book-series.html 

Basically, those 18 and older can write to DC Comics to write about why their town should be visited by an actor representing Superman. The towns visited will also be mentioned in the comic books over next year as a snap shot of America. Below is the info. on where to send an entry to, but you might want to read the article for a more in depth explanation of the contest (if you are interested in this). 



To enter your town in the contest, send a 75- to 1,000-word essay on why the Superman character should visit your hometown to DC Comics by July 12, 2010. 

Entries can be e-mailed to publicity at dccomics.com or sent by regular mail to Alex Segura, DC Comics, 1700 Broadway, 5th floor, New York, NY 10019. 
Cindy Gritton 


From tosca at prodigy.net  Sat Jun 26 16:50:31 2010
From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie B. Combs)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Having come close to unsubscribing myself, I agree with Jim Z.?
Ignore the pest and he will go away.

Remember the goofy psychologist whose name in some foreign tongue meant "dog"? - it worked with him.

So long as my delete button works, I'll continue to lurk.

Bonnie



----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sat, June 26, 2010 12:10:02 PM
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...

To Jeff and David,

For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling him.
And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a more
adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.

Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
jeopardy.

And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some, I
suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some supporters
who will not think so).

To the membership:

I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you with
my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list these
past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the group
that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!

Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't seem
to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.

In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without some
form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.

jimz
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From steelem at pacificu.edu  Sat Jun 26 18:04:07 2010
From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 18:04:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2ADE233@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>

I'm not a first-generation Grovenut...more like second generation, having started in 1997 or so.  It strikes me that we have been through these cycles before; they are not pleasant but they are also not permanent.

I'm very uncomfortable with anything that seems censorious or personally offensive--although the latter category is notoriously elusive.  

As someone on G-Net once said, politics is not a pillow fight.  A town forum certainly has room for political discussion.  As virtually everyone here has stated, the delete button is alive and well.  One can join in, lurk, or delete.  

The overall state of contemporary political discussion strikes me as abysmal and in need of the kind of correctives applied by Jeff and David.  I find the most extreme conservative stuff to be intellectually bankrupt, trite, banal, often hypocritical, and dim-witted.  There are exceptions, John Dean not being the least.

Such public dialogue over the years has not been pure, pristine, and totally honorable--probably ever.  Lincoln faced a genuine onslaught of personally offensive accusations and charges.  Public discourse is replete with stereotypes, lies, falsifications, outrageous claims, stupidity, prejudice, and character assassination.  This goes all the way back to the run-up to the American Revolution.  Many of those people simply hated each other--and made no bones about it.

We survived.

It is what it is.  In light of that, it's not for the faint of heart and the contest should not be abandoned to allow those who are least qualified, most vitriolic, and most incapable of presenting cogent, tightly organized, and well researched items to the public forum.  I would be appalled, for instance, if the tripe we've been seeing were the only stuff to be found on the local paper's editorial page.  No one would think of abandoning the field in that case.

So, why do it with Grovenet?

We have seen some new voices come on line recently.  Lurkers are coming out of the shadows.  Jeff and David put in inordinate amounts of time counter-arguing--and acquit themselves very well indeed.  We should be proud of their efforts.

Note the early connection of Grovenet to Pacific University.  As John Donne said in one of his most famous sermons, "No man is an island."  Whether we like it or not, we all reside in this universe (pun fully intended); indeed, the very remnants of the Big Bang are within each of us.  How can we remove ourselves from the universe?

We can't.  So, deal with it.  Welcome the opportunity.  Hit that delete key.  Go right ahead.  Or read all the various posts...or be picky.  No one here is in a position of lordship over us.  We are free agents.

Truth will ultimately prevail.

--Mike 




From hannah at teleport.com  Sat Jun 26 20:38:00 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:38:00 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] It's all in the details...a note I received today...
In-Reply-To: <a06240802c84bc4a65838@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <C84C31C8.175A8%hannah@teleport.com>

> 
> 
>  
> 
> SIGN IN A BUSINESS WINDOW IN FLORIDA !
> 
> 
> "WE WOULD  RATHER
> DO BUSINESS  WITH 1000   AL QAEDA TERRORISTS THAN WITH ONE SINGLE AMERICAN
> SOLDIER!"
> 
> This sign was prominently displayed in the window of a business in Florida and
> you are probably outraged at the thought of such an inflammatory sign.
> 
> However, we are a society which holds Freedom of  Speech as perhaps one of our
> greatest liberties.
> 
> And after all, it is only a sign, right?
> 
> You may ask :
> "What kind of  business would dare post such a sign?"
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Answer:  A Funeral Home
> (Who  said morticians had no  sense of humor?)
> 
> You  gotta love  it!!!!!!!!!
> 
> God Bless AMERICA and keep our Troops Safe and out of harms
> way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>  
> 
 

From redhead854 at msn.com  Sat Jun 26 21:25:59 2010
From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:25:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
Message-ID: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>


After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something 
that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening to 
what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People in the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings 
like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting their
hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in the morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get 
the washington county response information, I wish i could find that again.   

It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this date, school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or remind us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to invite political discussion 
outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some of the things I might be missing that the city puts out.

I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to entice the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of my car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting it.

I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think that would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding the 
rest of us captive to your rants.

I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a guideline to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement

A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.

So what as a community are our concerns and interests?  
I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit delete...so please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!! 

thats my 2 cents

thanks

Holly Divelbess Martinez




To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
participation. 



Goals to achieve the mission


Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western Washington County:


Access to community resources, both public and private.

An access point to the Internet and its resources.

A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.

Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that exist in Western Washington County.

 





> From: redhead854 at msn.com
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
> 
> 
> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking  
> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I  
> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.   
> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
> 
 		 	   		  

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 21:32:30 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:32:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>

Holly, posting about the dog is *exactly* one of the types of things to post 
here! It's one type of post that experienced "GroveNuts" would expect to 
read.


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community

>
> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that 
> maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great 
> information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening to
> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People in 
> the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to 
> hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting 
> their
> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in the 
> morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> the washington county response information, I Gwish i could find that 
> again.
>
> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities 
> posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this date, 
> school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or remind 
> us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire 
> work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. 
> Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to 
> invite political discussion
> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some of 
> the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
>
> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to entice 
> the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of my 
> car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting it.
>
> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that 
> allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think that 
> would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding the
> rest of us captive to your rants.
>
> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a guideline 
> to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit delete...so 
> please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
>
> thats my 2 cents
>
> thanks
>
> Holly Divelbess Martinez
>
>
>
>
> To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> participation.
>
>
>
> Goals to achieve the mission
>
>
> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western 
> Washington County:
>
>
> Access to community resources, both public and private.
>
> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that 
> exist in Western Washington County.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: redhead854 at msn.com
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
>> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
>>
>>
>> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
>> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I
>> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
>> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From smithsmith at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 21:38:15 2010
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:38:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2ADE233@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2ADE233@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikIp5PBzXK1aL-BtZ89noYYIRHAcEjsoqqJlinj@mail.gmail.com>

I am a great scanner and deleter of Grovenet posts.

The overzealous types do come and go over the years.

Every now and then there is an interesting subject to me.

 I still have my official "grovenut" pin.  Somewhere....
Wonder who else has an official pin?

Barb

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Steele, Mike <steelem at pacificu.edu> wrote:

> I'm not a first-generation Grovenut...more like second generation, having
> started in 1997 or so.  It strikes me that we have been through these cycles
> before; they are not pleasant but they are also not permanent.
>
> I'm very uncomfortable with anything that seems censorious or personally
> offensive--although the latter category is notoriously elusive.
>
> As someone on G-Net once said, politics is not a pillow fight.  A town
> forum certainly has room for political discussion.  As virtually everyone
> here has stated, the delete button is alive and well.  One can join in,
> lurk, or delete.
>
> The overall state of contemporary political discussion strikes me as
> abysmal and in need of the kind of correctives applied by Jeff and David.  I
> find the most extreme conservative stuff to be intellectually bankrupt,
> trite, banal, often hypocritical, and dim-witted.  There are exceptions,
> John Dean not being the least.
>
> Such public dialogue over the years has not been pure, pristine, and
> totally honorable--probably ever.  Lincoln faced a genuine onslaught of
> personally offensive accusations and charges.  Public discourse is replete
> with stereotypes, lies, falsifications, outrageous claims, stupidity,
> prejudice, and character assassination.  This goes all the way back to the
> run-up to the American Revolution.  Many of those people simply hated each
> other--and made no bones about it.
>
> We survived.
>
> It is what it is.  In light of that, it's not for the faint of heart and
> the contest should not be abandoned to allow those who are least qualified,
> most vitriolic, and most incapable of presenting cogent, tightly organized,
> and well researched items to the public forum.  I would be appalled, for
> instance, if the tripe we've been seeing were the only stuff to be found on
> the local paper's editorial page.  No one would think of abandoning the
> field in that case.
>
> So, why do it with Grovenet?
>
> We have seen some new voices come on line recently.  Lurkers are coming out
> of the shadows.  Jeff and David put in inordinate amounts of time
> counter-arguing--and acquit themselves very well indeed.  We should be proud
> of their efforts.
>
> Note the early connection of Grovenet to Pacific University.  As John Donne
> said in one of his most famous sermons, "No man is an island."  Whether we
> like it or not, we all reside in this universe (pun fully intended); indeed,
> the very remnants of the Big Bang are within each of us.  How can we remove
> ourselves from the universe?
>
> We can't.  So, deal with it.  Welcome the opportunity.  Hit that delete
> key.  Go right ahead.  Or read all the various posts...or be picky.  No one
> here is in a position of lordship over us.  We are free agents.
>
> Truth will ultimately prevail.
>
> --Mike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From smithsmith at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 21:44:51 2010
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:44:51 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Holly -

Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.

http://208.71.205.35/PITS/

Barb
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net> wrote:

> Holly, posting about the dog is *exactly* one of the types of things to
> post
> here! It's one type of post that experienced "GroveNuts" would expect to
> read.
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
> To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
>
> >
> > After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that
> > maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> > that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great
> > information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening to
> > what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People in
> > the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
> > like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to
> > hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting
> > their
> > hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in
> the
> > morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> > the washington county response information, I Gwish i could find that
> > again.
> >
> > It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities
> > posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this
> date,
> > school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or
> remind
> > us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring
> fire
> > work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do.
> > Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to
> > invite political discussion
> > outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some
> of
> > the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
> >
> > I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to entice
> > the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> > ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of my
> > car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting it.
> >
> > I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that
> > allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> > not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think that
> > would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding
> the
> > rest of us captive to your rants.
> >
> > I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a
> guideline
> > to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
> >
> > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> >
> > So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> > I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit delete...so
> > please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
> >
> > thats my 2 cents
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Holly Divelbess Martinez
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
> > and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> > participation.
> >
> >
> >
> > Goals to achieve the mission
> >
> >
> > Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western
> > Washington County:
> >
> >
> > Access to community resources, both public and private.
> >
> > An access point to the Internet and its resources.
> >
> > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> >
> > Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that
> > exist in Western Washington County.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: redhead854 at msn.com
> >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> >> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
> >> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
> >>
> >>
> >> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
> >> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I
> >> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
> >> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 21:53:42 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:53:42 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <4C2655CF.00000E.02088@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2655CF.00000E.02088@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <C74C770D-5161-4D6F-8A54-8BEFF9A81088@verizon.net>

Don,

I enjoy the back and forth of a political discussion, if you would like to continue political discussions off GroveNet, contact me directly with the topics at 

jo.david at verizon.net

And I will respond directly to you.

David

On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:32 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Jeff and David do their homework and provide thought provoking responses to enhance the learning processes of politics left to right, liberal to conservative.
> 
> Can personal opinion promote censorship? Is censorship OK? 
> 
> ...
> 
> Don 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 21:54:17 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:54:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] It's all in the details...a note I received today...
In-Reply-To: <C84C31C8.175A8%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C84C31C8.175A8%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <1FB1558F-DB8C-4374-86DA-009C93EAB2E5@verizon.net>

Nice sign.

On Jun 26, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:

>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> SIGN IN A BUSINESS WINDOW IN FLORIDA !
>> 
>> 
>> "WE WOULD  RATHER
>> DO BUSINESS  WITH 1000   AL QAEDA TERRORISTS THAN WITH ONE SINGLE AMERICAN
>> SOLDIER!"
>> 
>> This sign was prominently displayed in the window of a business in Florida and
>> you are probably outraged at the thought of such an inflammatory sign.
>> 
>> However, we are a society which holds Freedom of  Speech as perhaps one of our
>> greatest liberties.
>> 
>> And after all, it is only a sign, right?
>> 
>> You may ask :
>> "What kind of  business would dare post such a sign?"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Answer:  A Funeral Home
>> (Who  said morticians had no  sense of humor?)
>> 
>> You  gotta love  it!!!!!!!!!
>> 
>> God Bless AMERICA and keep our Troops Safe and out of harms
>> way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 21:56:08 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:56:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <SNT101-W60EC5196F882798B5EF29CFDC80@phx.gbl>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT101-W60EC5196F882798B5EF29CFDC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimyIkOvI6J-cAL-3HHf6GspWBACV4X2W1q041pu@mail.gmail.com>

Dick, we share a mutual respect and always have. I want to thank you for
providing the list with a little Grovenet history, and helping revisit the
original vision we once had for Grovenet (way back when). With some effort I
believe we can return to the days when one could log onto Grovenet and get a
healthy serving of good advice, friendly chatter, and a sense of belonging
to this neighborly-like, virtual community. You have done more in this
single post than any of us have been able to do in many, and that is to give
us hope it may someday return to more civil, local discourse, where mutual
respect is the tie that binds. Not only have you given us history, but
you've provided Grovenet with the seeds of a rebirth, and a road map back to
where we rightfully belong.

Thank you,
jimz

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Dick LaJeunesse <
dick.lajeunesse at hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Wherefore Grovenet
>
>
> Seeing Jim Z?s posts once again reminds me of the founding
> days of Grovenet when the discussions were mostly about local events,
> organizations and resources.  The whole
> concept grew from the IT folks at Pacific sharing their network with us.
>  Jim, David, Bob, Bud, Mark, Michael and a few
> others here will remember those early days.
>
>
> Much of what we shared outside the town were links to the wondrous
> new world of the internet (there were no sophisticated search engines
> then).  One of our favorite posters was a librarian
> (Kiera K) who provided all of us with a treasure trove of links to amazing
> resources and cyber adventures.  We also
> gave each other tips and information various local activities and issues.
>  We shared recommendations for local
> businesses and trades people.  We even
> started joint projects (like the scarecrow contest at the corn roast).
>
>
> We searched our cyber-souls often in those days for what a
> community forum should be, what rules we should have and how they could be
> enforced.  Debates on political issues
> gradually made their way onto the list, and they were usually civil and
> mostly
> about local developments.  We left the
> forum open in the interest of free speech.
>
>
> Now and then, the list was commandeered by individuals who
> mounted prolific vitriolic attacks on the list, ideas and individuals.
>  Eventually, the list learned to ignore the
> attackers until they tired and left.
>
>
> At some point, the list branched into broader and more
> remote issues and philosophies.  Debates
> on National and International issues can be interesting and stimulating ?
> even between
> folks who have little or no direct knowledge
> or influence, but all too often, the debates on little-ole Grovenet
> degenerated into nasty ad-hominem attacks, counterattacks and just plain
> silly
> arguments.  The seemingly endless threads
> and chat attacks have crowded out the few remaining nuggets of local news
> and
> made them very hard to find. (65 to 95 posts a day??!!).
>
>
>
>  I have remained a ?luker?
> on Grovenet during the past few years just to find those occasional
> nuggets.  I have no particular expertise in most of the
> topics raised, nor can I offer any solutions.
> I could only express my opinions, but it is better for me to remain
> silent and be thought a fool than to speak and prove it.
>
>
> Call me old fashioned, na?ve or narrow minded (and some
> likely will call me worse than that), but I long  for the days when we
> could happily chat about
> what?s going on in town, share our experiences with local resources and
> advocate
> for local causes with civility and respect.
> I believe that is where chuck is headed with his FG Live blog, and I
> wish him well.
>
>
> Which gets me back to Jim Z ? a gentleman with whom I
> disagree on most political issues and for whom I have the utmost respect.
> It is
> nice to see your posts once again, Jim.  They
> have lured me out of my lurker?s lair for one more post.
> Dick LaJeunesse
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with
> Hotmail.
>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Jun 26 22:23:06 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:23:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>

Jimz:
I agree wholeheartedly.  I've been deleting unread entire strings of  
futile exchanges on political subjects introduced by Don. I deeply  
admire Jeff and David's carefully-researched and well-thought out  
rebuttals, but rebuttals don't work when you are dealing with a True  
Believer. All you can do is refuse to take the bait. even if the TB  
then interprets your silence as a "victory."
The exchange on school hours was, I thought, a useful and valuable  
conversation on an important subject, which actually affects us, and  
on which some of us may actually have an influence.  Let's have more  
such exchanges.
WW

On Jun 26, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> To Jeff and David,
>
> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his  
> posts.
> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on  
> a range
> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are  
> enabling him.
> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the  
> list. My
> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown  
> weary of
> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to  
> STOP!!! And
> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a  
> harbinger of
> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look  
> what is
> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also  
> detect a more
> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience  
> on all
> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands  
> ready to be
> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>
> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will  
> begin
> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only  
> aggravate the
> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire  
> list in
> jeopardy.
>
> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet  
> to read
> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe  
> (to some, I
> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some  
> supporters
> who will not think so).
>
> To the membership:
>
> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of  
> you with
> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the  
> list these
> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you  
> may have
> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from  
> the group
> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And  
> the only
> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>
> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by  
> providing a
> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He  
> doesn't seem
> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>
> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've  
> said all
> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If  
> you've felt
> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this  
> issue, then
> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable  
> community asset,
> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into  
> the wrong
> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals.  
> When
> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of  
> that and
> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum.  
> Without some
> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>
> jimz
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 22:32:26 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:32:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>

Yea, I was dealing with true believers who think that anyone with a
different view than the president is a racist. even if the TB
then interprets your silence as a "victory."
I would encourage all opinions to be heard. Maybe out of it all, we can
forge a path to better understanding.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 10:23 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general
> plea to the list...
> 
> Jimz:
> I agree wholeheartedly.  I've been deleting unread entire strings of
> futile exchanges on political subjects introduced by Don. I deeply
> admire Jeff and David's carefully-researched and well-thought out
> rebuttals, but rebuttals don't work when you are dealing with a True
> Believer. All you can do is refuse to take the bait. even if the TB
> then interprets your silence as a "victory."
> The exchange on school hours was, I thought, a useful and valuable
> conversation on an important subject, which actually affects us, and
> on which some of us may actually have an influence.  Let's have more
> such exchanges.
> WW
> 
tinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sat Jun 26 22:54:59 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:54:59 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>
	<003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>
Message-ID: <E394B637-C34C-44D0-95B5-88E8A76367B2@verizon.net>

The discussions frequently require that I research and learn new information.  That new information affects my world view.  It even has the potential to change the way that I approach an idea.  Earlier in my life I held much different opinions than I do now.  Then, the opinions were largely the result opinions passed on from my parents and my teachers.  Since then, research has given me a wider set of information, and that information has caused me to change my opinions.

I expect that I will continue to change in the future, albeit at a slower rate.  There was a big change from believing that the free market could and should be the arbiter of human transactions, to the understanding that there are human transactions that are not economic in nature.  I also learned that our economic system is several steps removed from a true free market.  So, now I believe that the free market has limitations in its usefulness as an accurate model of the U.S. economy.  Our economy is a mixture of free market, crony capitalism, and socialism.  

If the parties involved are not interested in learning or changing, then the discussion is simply a series of advertisements for various personal agendas.  In the end, if we all listen, we will better understand the other speakers.  But, if we do not move toward a common goal, we are not on "a" path, we are on "separate" paths.

David

On Jun 26, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Steven wrote:

> I would encourage all opinions to be heard. Maybe out of it all, we can forge a path to better understanding.



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 22:56:08 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:56:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>

Barb,

Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it includes
Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there is an
anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are aware of. On
Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city nameplate that
says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if it also
shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my machine).
Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to delete their
work before putting it on line. Check it out!

If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post haste!!!

jim

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Holly -
>
> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>
> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>
> Barb
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Holly, posting about the dog is *exactly* one of the types of things to
> > post
> > here! It's one type of post that experienced "GroveNuts" would expect to
> > read.
> >
> >
> > Geri
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
> > To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for
> community
> >
> > >
> > > After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that
> > > maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> > > that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great
> > > information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening
> to
> > > what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People
> in
> > > the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
> > > like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to
> > > hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting
> > > their
> > > hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in
> > the
> > > morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> > > the washington county response information, I Gwish i could find that
> > > again.
> > >
> > > It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities
> > > posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this
> > date,
> > > school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or
> > remind
> > > us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring
> > fire
> > > work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do.
> > > Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to
> > > invite political discussion
> > > outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some
> > of
> > > the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
> > >
> > > I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to
> entice
> > > the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> > > ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of
> my
> > > car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting
> it.
> > >
> > > I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that
> > > allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> > > not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think
> that
> > > would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding
> > the
> > > rest of us captive to your rants.
> > >
> > > I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a
> > guideline
> > > to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
> > >
> > > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> > >
> > > So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> > > I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit
> delete...so
> > > please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
> > >
> > > thats my 2 cents
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > Holly Divelbess Martinez
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
> > > and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> > > participation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Goals to achieve the mission
> > >
> > >
> > > Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western
> > > Washington County:
> > >
> > >
> > > Access to community resources, both public and private.
> > >
> > > An access point to the Internet and its resources.
> > >
> > > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> > >
> > > Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that
> > > exist in Western Washington County.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: redhead854 at msn.com
> > >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> > >> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
> > >> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
> > >> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I
> > >> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
> > >> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 23:07:15 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:07:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXpSWrmCzOa76-4-f0gfUHaHvMZEexh30w_Kgk@mail.gmail.com>

Holly,

I agree with Geri, that's exactly what should be showing up on Grovenet.
There are enough forums on political debate out there to fulfill any
obsessive, political debaters dream. There simply aren't enough neighborhood
forums to go around.

This is how we started out, and it was soooo beneficial, and fun, and
interesting. So keep those local issues coming, there's plenty of members
who'd like to participate, and will with the right issue.

BTW, whatever happened to the poor hound?

jim

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Holly Di <redhead854 at msn.com> wrote:

>
> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that
> maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great
> information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening to
> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People in
> the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to
> hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting their
> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in the
> morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> the washington county response information, I wish i could find that again.
>
> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities
> posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this date,
> school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or remind
> us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire
> work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. Even
> commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to invite
> political discussion
> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some of
> the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
>
> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to entice
> the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of my
> car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting it.
>
> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that
> allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think that
> would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding the
> rest of us captive to your rants.
>
> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a guideline
> to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit delete...so
> please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
>
> thats my 2 cents
>
> thanks
>
> Holly Divelbess Martinez
>
>
>
>
> To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> participation.
>
>
>
> Goals to achieve the mission
>
>
> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western
> Washington County:
>
>
> Access to community resources, both public and private.
>
> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that
> exist in Western Washington County.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: redhead854 at msn.com
> > To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> > Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
> > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
> >
> >
> > Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
> > things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I
> > couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
> > Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Jun 26 23:19:24 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:19:24 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1B49FB3F-CF5D-40EB-A387-9E726ECEDFC2@teleport.com>

Holly, the lost dog item was perfectly appropriate. You never know  
who might be reading Grovelist.
Did you contact the Animal services or the Bonnie L Hays animal  
shelter to see if anyone had reported a lost dog?
My own dog, Pepper, had to be put down last week. Poor little duffer,  
he was 15 years old and kept relapsing into acute kidney failure.
WW
On Jun 26, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Holly Di wrote:

>
> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking  
> that maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the  
> great information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively  
> listening to
> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,   
> People in the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate  
> warnings
> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I  
> liked to hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people  
> are getting their
> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am  
> in the morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> the washington county response information, I wish i could find  
> that again.
>
> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local  
> activities posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or  
> strings on this date, school games, farmers market or other  
> charitible sales, dinners, or remind us of habitat for humanities  
> store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire work sales, tree  
> sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. Even  
> commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to  
> invite political discussion
> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so  
> some of the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
>
> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to  
> entice the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act  
> like he had
> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front  
> of my car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid  
> hitting it.
>
> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using  
> that allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.   
> You do
> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I  
> think that would be great for political debates - no censorship,  
> just not holding the
> rest of us captive to your rants.
>
> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a  
> guideline to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission  
> statement
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit  
> delete...so please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
>
> thats my 2 cents
>
> thanks
>
> Holly Divelbess Martinez
>
>
>
>
> To provide information about Western Washington County via the  
> Internet
> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> participation.
>
>
>
> Goals to achieve the mission
>
>
> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and  
> Western Washington County:
>
>
> Access to community resources, both public and private.
>
> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources  
> that exist in Western Washington County.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: redhead854 at msn.com
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
>> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
>>
>>
>> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
>> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the  
>> traffic.  I
>> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
>> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
>>
>  		 	   		
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sat Jun 26 23:22:11 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:22:11 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>
	<003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>
Message-ID: <CBE29CF7-582A-4B83-B026-72FC86D59A85@teleport.com>

Observe me not takin' that bait.

On Jun 26, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Steven wrote:

> Yea, I was dealing with true believers who think that anyone with a
> different view than the president is a racist. even if the TB
> then interprets your silence as a "victory."
> I would encourage all opinions to be heard. Maybe out of it all, we  
> can
> forge a path to better understanding.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 10:23 PM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general
>> plea to the list...
>>
>> Jimz:
>> I agree wholeheartedly.  I've been deleting unread entire strings of
>> futile exchanges on political subjects introduced by Don. I deeply
>> admire Jeff and David's carefully-researched and well-thought out
>> rebuttals, but rebuttals don't work when you are dealing with a True
>> Believer. All you can do is refuse to take the bait. even if the TB
>> then interprets your silence as a "victory."
>> The exchange on school hours was, I thought, a useful and valuable
>> conversation on an important subject, which actually affects us, and
>> on which some of us may actually have an influence.  Let's have more
>> such exchanges.
>> WW
>>
> tinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From debbratland at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 23:21:17 2010
From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:21:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMXkS-XNkFMpZLqrMbWkxCSQsemejVFZh66435@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I get "Idiotville" on the map too.  Hm.

Deb Bratland


On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Barb,
>
> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it includes
> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there is an
> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are aware of. On
> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city nameplate that
> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if it also
> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my machine).
> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to delete their
> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>
> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post haste!!!
>
> jim
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Holly -
> >
> > Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
> >
> > http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
> >
> > Barb
> > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Holly, posting about the dog is *exactly* one of the types of things to
> > > post
> > > here! It's one type of post that experienced "GroveNuts" would expect
> to
> > > read.
> > >
> > >
> > > Geri
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
> > > To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for
> > community
> > >
> > > >
> > > > After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking
> that
> > > > maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> > > > that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the
> great
> > > > information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively
> listening
> > to
> > > > what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,
>  People
> > in
> > > > the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
> > > > like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked
> to
> > > > hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting
> > > > their
> > > > hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am
> in
> > > the
> > > > morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> > > > the washington county response information, I Gwish i could find that
> > > > again.
> > > >
> > > > It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities
> > > > posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this
> > > date,
> > > > school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or
> > > remind
> > > > us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring
> > > fire
> > > > work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to
> do.
> > > > Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to
> > > > invite political discussion
> > > > outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so
> some
> > > of
> > > > the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
> > > >
> > > > I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to
> > entice
> > > > the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> > > > ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of
> > my
> > > > car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using
> that
> > > > allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> > > > not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think
> > that
> > > > would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not
> holding
> > > the
> > > > rest of us captive to your rants.
> > > >
> > > > I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a
> > > guideline
> > > > to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
> > > >
> > > > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> > > >
> > > > So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> > > > I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit
> > delete...so
> > > > please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
> > > >
> > > > thats my 2 cents
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > >
> > > > Holly Divelbess Martinez
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To provide information about Western Washington County via the
> Internet
> > > > and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> > > > participation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Goals to achieve the mission
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and
> Western
> > > > Washington County:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Access to community resources, both public and private.
> > > >
> > > > An access point to the Internet and its resources.
> > > >
> > > > A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> > > >
> > > > Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources
> that
> > > > exist in Western Washington County.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> From: redhead854 at msn.com
> > > >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> > > >> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
> > > >> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos
> looking
> > > >> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.
>  I
> > > >> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
> > > >> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GroveNet mailing list
> > > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From kb-ent at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 23:35:44 2010
From: kb-ent at comcast.net (K. Bingham)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:35:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>

I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in once it 
goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more there 
is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
Keith

Jim Zaleski wrote:
> Barb,
>
> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it includes
> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there is an
> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are aware of. On
> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city nameplate that
> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if it also
> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my machine).
> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to delete their
> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>
> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post haste!!!
>
> jim
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi Holly -
>>
>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>>
>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>>
>> Barb
>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>     
>


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net  Sat Jun 26 23:42:26 2010
From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:42:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
In-Reply-To: <E394B637-C34C-44D0-95B5-88E8A76367B2@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<98751F85-4012-4CBB-80DB-5728D2720005@teleport.com>	<003901cb15ba$2106df70$63149e50$@net>
	<E394B637-C34C-44D0-95B5-88E8A76367B2@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001401cb15c3$e84f7ac0$b8ee7040$@net>

I find that when both sides can discuss a topic openly, they realize that
both 'sides' really have lots to agree on. Typically, the solution is where
disagreement really resides. By looking at the options with open mind,
future growth can take place.

I took lots of heat early on for my comment that All democrats are
communists. Not many understood it as a flip on what I was reading here.
Over and over again, I read how republicans or Christians or whoever are
ignorant fools. I merely spun the comments and all heck broke loose. 

Origin of word: pipe dream, An apparent reference to the visions of opium
smokers, "pipe dream" first appeared in print-with a hyphen-in the Chicago
Tribune in 1890, describing the impossibility of aerial navigation.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 10:55 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general
> plea to the list...
> 
> The discussions frequently require that I research and learn new
> information.  That new information affects my world view.  It even has
> the potential to change the way that I approach an idea.  Earlier in my
> life I held much different opinions than I do now.  Then, the opinions
> were largely the result opinions passed on from my parents and my
> teachers.  Since then, research has given me a wider set of
> information, and that information has caused me to change my opinions.
> 
> I expect that I will continue to change in the future, albeit at a
> slower rate.  There was a big change from believing that the free
> market could and should be the arbiter of human transactions, to the
> understanding that there are human transactions that are not economic
> in nature.  I also learned that our economic system is several steps
> removed from a true free market.  So, now I believe that the free
> market has limitations in its usefulness as an accurate model of the
> U.S. economy.  Our economy is a mixture of free market, crony
> capitalism, and socialism.
> 
> If the parties involved are not interested in learning or changing,
> then the discussion is simply a series of advertisements for various
> personal agendas.  In the end, if we all listen, we will better
> understand the other speakers.  But, if we do not move toward a common
> goal, we are not on "a" path, we are on "separate" paths.
> 
> David
> 
> On Jun 26, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Steven wrote:
> 
> > I would encourage all opinions to be heard. Maybe out of it all, we
> can forge a path to better understanding.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 00:05:49 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:05:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] It's all in the details...a note I received today...
References: <C84C31C8.175A8%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C26F84A.000004.03964@DON-B2514E06367>

Show do love it, and wish the soldiers safely through their task.

Thanks for posting it,

PS: I didn't bite. I cheated because I saw it before. Still very funny.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Kristy Gravlin
Date: 6/26/2010 8:38:20 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] It's all in the details...a note I received today...
 
>
>
>
>
> SIGN IN A BUSINESS WINDOW IN FLORIDA !
>
>
> "WE WOULD  RATHER
> DO BUSINESS  WITH 1000   AL QAEDA TERRORISTS THAN WITH ONE SINGLE AMERICAN
> SOLDIER!"
>
> This sign was prominently displayed in the window of a business in Florida
and
> you are probably outraged at the thought of such an inflammatory sign.
>
> However, we are a society which holds Freedom of  Speech as perhaps one of
our
> greatest liberties.
>
> And after all, it is only a sign, right?
>
> You may ask :
> "What kind of  business would dare post such a sign?"
>
>
>
>
> Answer:  A Funeral Home
> (Who  said morticians had no  sense of humor?)
>
> You  gotta love  it!!!!!!!!!
>
> God Bless AMERICA and keep our Troops Safe and out of harms
> way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 00:05:01 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:05:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
 meaning of community.
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>

Grovenetters,

I've spoken about who I think are the detractors on this list, those who
make it less desirable to participate, and who have abused their privilege
of participation by overwhelming us with things we don't want to discuss.
Now I want to name a few folks who, by their personalities and civility,
represent the heart of Grovenet.

The first is Ole Hoss. He's a hoot as most of you will agree. And who else
greets you each week with at least one cheery, online greeting card
(complete with musical accompaniment). Who else actually says, "Good Morning
Grovenetters,) or ends the day with something lighthearted and fun. And who
never seems to get riled (even when he's criticized). That's Ole Hoss, the
likable curmudgeon who resides happily on his beloved Green Mountain. Thanks
for grounding us Hoss with your light hearted levity, and down home
anecdotes about living in the wilderness. Hoss, you do a great job of
helping us realize the world really is a small place, and that we need to
bring in some cheer once in a while.

And how about the friendly chatter that ofttimes goes on between Hoss, Geri,
Ed and Bob on such mundane subjects like the weather, roses, dawgs, kats,
firewood, and beautiful sunsets. While these discussions may not be
exciting, they are delightful. This is my concept of what Grovenet should be
about. Friends and neighbors sharing, laughing, being human. It's a big bad
world out there, we all know that, and while there is a place and time for
such discussions, we don't want it in our homes darkening our thoughts day
after day. Life is local. Let's stick to local issues and let the heavy
hitting political debates seek other venues.

David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add immeasurably to our
knowledge base about things other than politics. Would you be willing to put
the time and energy into addressing items of a more local flavor? We need
folks like you. You inspire us to want to know more. You provide examples of
how we can all use the internet to better educate ourselves on an infinite
number of topics. As you've seen from the responses today, political
discussions are simply not meeting the needs of this forum. Bringing your
scholarship to local community interests would be immensely beneficial.

And to everyone out there who ever wanted to post something to Grovenet, but
were afraid of the response you'd get, take a walk on the wild side and give
it a try. With the desire to get more local abundantly clear, now is your
chance to make yourself heard.

So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on in our
community you'd like to share today?

jimz

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 00:16:17 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:16:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named "Idiotville,"
Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>

Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm from
Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in Oregon.
Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?

jim



On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net> wrote:

> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in once it
> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more there
> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
> Keith
>
> Jim Zaleski wrote:
> > Barb,
> >
> > Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it includes
> > Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there is an
> > anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are aware of.
> On
> > Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city nameplate
> that
> > says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if it also
> > shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my machine).
> > Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to delete
> their
> > work before putting it on line. Check it out!
> >
> > If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post haste!!!
> >
> > jim
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hi Holly -
> >>
> >> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
> >>
> >> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
> >>
> >> Barb
> >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 00:22:21 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:22:21 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
	a general plea to the list...
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinO3ZhOcYON4Dlqoqf7gzM7dytBMMX5oX5_QvLL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C26FC29.00000E.03964@DON-B2514E06367>

Need not worry Debra. I can take anything thrown at me.

I finally got it, If I don't disagree with anyone, I am OK.

I got it.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Debra Bratland
Date: 6/26/2010 1:43:44 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to
the list...
 
I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting anything
from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting anything,
because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed I
would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.
 
Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it seemed
we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.
 
But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to his
POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my dad's
hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my time
or effort.
 
Just a newbie opinion -
 
Deb Bratland
 
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
 
> To Jeff and David,
>
> For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
> Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
> of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
> him.
> And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
> personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
> your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
> stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
> doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
> happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
> more
> adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
> sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to
be
> struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
>
> Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
> filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
> already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
> jeopardy.
>
> And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
> I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some,
> I
> suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
> supporters
> who will not think so).
>
> To the membership:
>
> I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
> with
> my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
> these
> past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may
have
> concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
> group
> that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
> way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
>
> Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
> 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
> seem
> to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
>
> In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
> that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've
felt
> I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
> what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset

> it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the
wrong
> hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
> subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
> asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
> some
> form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
>
> jimz
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From redhead854 at msn.com  Sun Jun 27 00:33:38 2010
From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:33:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8C36905-3939-4872-AAA9-9F9EB71E7C5F@msn.com>

Thanks Barb




On Jun 26, 2010, at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Holly -
>
> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>
> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>
> Barb
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g- 
> steele at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Holly, posting about the dog is *exactly* one of the types of  
>> things to
>> post
>> here! It's one type of post that experienced "GroveNuts" would  
>> expect to
>> read.
>>
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
>> To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for  
>> community
>>
>>>
>>> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking  
>>> that
>>> maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
>>> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the  
>>> great
>>> information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively  
>>> listening to
>>> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,   
>>> People in
>>> the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings
>>> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I  
>>> liked to
>>> hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are  
>>> getting
>>> their
>>> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at  
>>> 4am in
>> the
>>> morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
>>> the washington county response information, I Gwish i could find  
>>> that
>>> again.
>>>
>>> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local  
>>> activities
>>> posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this
>> date,
>>> school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or
>> remind
>>> us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were  
>>> sponsoring
>> fire
>>> work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things  
>>> to do.
>>> Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys  
>>> (to
>>> invite political discussion
>>> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so  
>>> some
>> of
>>> the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
>>>
>>> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to  
>>> entice
>>> the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
>>> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front  
>>> of my
>>> car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid  
>>> hitting it.
>>>
>>> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using  
>>> that
>>> allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
>>> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I  
>>> think that
>>> would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not  
>>> holding
>> the
>>> rest of us captive to your rants.
>>>
>>> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a
>> guideline
>>> to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
>>>
>>> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>>>
>>> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
>>> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit  
>>> delete...so
>>> please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
>>>
>>> thats my 2 cents
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> Holly Divelbess Martinez
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To provide information about Western Washington County via the  
>>> Internet
>>> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
>>> participation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Goals to achieve the mission
>>>
>>>
>>> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and  
>>> Western
>>> Washington County:
>>>
>>>
>>> Access to community resources, both public and private.
>>>
>>> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
>>>
>>> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>>>
>>> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources  
>>> that
>>> exist in Western Washington County.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: redhead854 at msn.com
>>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>>>> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
>>>> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos  
>>>> looking
>>>> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the  
>>>> traffic.  I
>>>> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
>>>> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>


From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 00:43:15 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:43:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4C27010F.000016.03964@DON-B2514E06367>

Better yet. Keep the name and all liberals move to it.

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: K. Bingham
Date: 6/26/2010 11:46:20 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
 
I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in once it
goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more there
is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
Keith
 
Jim Zaleski wrote:
> Barb,
>
> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it includes
> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there is an
> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are aware of.
On
> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city nameplate
that
> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if it also
> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my machine).
> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to delete
their
> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>
> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post haste!!!
>
> jim
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Holly -
>>
>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>>
>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>>
>> Barb
>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-steele at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 07:39:18 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:39:18 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>

"Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There  
is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
WW

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named  
> "Idiotville,"
> Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>
> Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm  
> from
> Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
> I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in  
> Oregon.
> Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>
> jim
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in  
>> once it
>> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more  
>> there
>> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
>> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>> Keith
>>
>> Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>> Barb,
>>>
>>> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it  
>>> includes
>>> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there  
>>> is an
>>> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are  
>>> aware of.
>> On
>>> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city  
>>> nameplate
>> that
>>> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if  
>>> it also
>>> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my  
>>> machine).
>>> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to  
>>> delete
>> their
>>> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>>>
>>> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post  
>>> haste!!!
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Holly -
>>>>
>>>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>>>>
>>>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>>>>
>>>> Barb
>>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g- 
>>>> steele at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From hannah at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 07:43:16 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:43:16 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>

 This thread reminds me that every once in a while I think I should request
an ongoing assistance...

Life takes me away from FG at times...and when I return I often find
something has changed. The name of a store...the place of a store...a new
hole in the ground but why...a store that I can no longer find...traffic
changes...

Nothing earthshaking...but it makes me think that someone on  the list
probably knows. I'd like that kind of info. The larger issues do attract
some notes but those little ones just happen and I never seem to know why or
what or how to deal with it. So, if you know the back-story on such, I'd
like to know too.

I also enjoy learning historical info about our communities (and more about
those other than FG if possible) to catch me up on all the years I wasn't
here. Not as a "complete focus" but as a brief explanation when appropriate
to say why something has happened today, etc.

Thanks,
Kristy




From dafracks at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 27 07:51:41 2010
From: dafracks at hotmail.com (Tracy Irwin)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:51:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <12728F1A48C944BF9014E2C704FC840B@EdDaviePC>
References: <12728F1A48C944BF9014E2C704FC840B@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <SNT119-W42706AFFAE97A2049B8D9FC4C90@phx.gbl>



Before Don, there was Krystof (sp?).  I enjoy getting caught up on and caught up in the discussions.  Just don't read what makes your blood boil is an easy solution.  

I am of the mind that you should keep your friends close and your not friends closer.  I don't consider Don or Krystof to be my enemy, so I will paraphrase the saying to not friends.  I don't know either one to say whether we could be friends or not.

I have moved much of the discussions to my SPAM folder which I look at everyday. I choose which to open.  
> From: edavie at verizon.net
> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
> Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:55:32 -0700
> Subject: [Grovenet] Fw:  A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to 	the list...
> 
> I hate to give Don credit for destroying Grovenet. It's been going too long now!
> He too, will fade away.
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> From: Ed Davie 
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:53 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list 
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...
> 
> 
> Well, I was thinking seriously of unsubscribing too but after your post (and Jimz's), maybe I'll wait a while!
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> From: Debra Bratland 
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 1:43 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list 
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...
> 
> 
> I'm new to GroveNet as of about 6 weeks ago and I was going to unsubscribe
> at the end of last week, because I have no interest in either side of the
> political debates that are going on.  I was automatically deleting anything
> from Don, and anything in response to Don.  I was wary of posting anything,
> because from seeing all of the back and forth that was going on, I assumed I
> would be attacked no matter what I said or what "side" I was on.
> 
> Then Marian posted the question about late start for the FGSD, and it seemed
> we had a nice little discussion going on.  I felt it was fairly civil,
> I learned from hearing other peoples' perspectives, and I enjoyed it.  And
> it seemed germaine to our local community.  So I didn't unsubscribe.
> 
> But I'm with Jimz - simply delete Don's stuff if you're not inclined to his
> POV.  You will *never* change his mind.  This is from a woman whose father
> is of the same political bent as Don.  I've finally quit biting on my dad's
> hooks, because all it does is get him going.  It's simply not worth my time
> or effort.
> 
> Just a newbie opinion -
> 
> Deb Bratland
> 
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > To Jeff and David,
> >
> > For the love of God, please stop enabling Don by responding to his posts.
> > Today we all woke up to no less than 8 twisted nuggets from him on a range
> > of right-wing issues meant to incite us. By responding you are enabling
> > him.
> > And by enabling him you are ultimately doing a disservice to the list. My
> > personal feeling is that a good number of subscribers have grown weary of
> > your well intentioned and well written rebuttals. It's time to STOP!!! And
> > stop completely. An inability to see the the negative consequences of
> > continuing to give him the spot light will lead to nothing less than a
> > wholesale collapse of the list. And if you think I'm just a harbinger of
> > doom, or Chicken Little yelling the sky is falling, I'm not. Look what is
> > happening, and you will see an unraveling taking place. I also detect a
> > more
> > adversarial tone in your exchanges. Civility is eroding. Patience on all
> > sides is growing thin. The match to light the powder keg stands ready to be
> > struck. Don't be the ones to strike it.
> >
> > Personally, while I thoroughly enjoy reading your rebuttals, I will begin
> > filtering them out, out of principle, as I believe they only aggravate the
> > already shaky balance of civility on the list, and put the entire list in
> > jeopardy.
> >
> > And if I filter you out, then there won't be much left on Grovenet to read
> > I'm afraid. And if that is the result, I'll probably unsubscribe (to some,
> > I
> > suppose this will be, a welcomed event, though I hope I have some
> > supporters
> > who will not think so).
> >
> > To the membership:
> >
> > I get the sense that I have made myself very unpopular with many of you
> > with
> > my campaign to curb the deluge of propaganda that has glutted the list
> > these
> > past several months. I am not advocating censorship as some of you may have
> > concluded, I'm only asking for some small measure of guidance from the
> > group
> > that the pure volume of this type of posting is undesirable. And the only
> > way you can send a clear and direct message to the abusers is not to
> > respond. I repeat, NOT TO RESPOND!
> >
> > Just yesterday, Don said, *I apologize if I offended anyone by providing a
> > 2nd side to each issue.* yet he continues to do so unabated. He doesn't
> > seem
> > to be sincere enough to curtain his offensive posts.
> >
> > In closing, this will be my last post regarding this issue. I've said all
> > that I need to say, and have provided all the warnings I can without
> > obsessing over it. I will let the list decide what it wants. If you've felt
> > I have become a trouble maker and a spoiler by addressing this issue, then
> > what I have said will mean nothing. Grovenet is a valuable community asset,
> > it should be protected and nurtured, and not allowed to fall into the wrong
> > hands. It is a forum for the people, not a soapbox for individuals. When
> > subscribers abuse that privilege then they need to be reminded of that and
> > asked to comply with the general rules of civility and decorum. Without
> > some
> > form of self-governous it will fail to thrive.
> >
> > jimz
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4

From edavie at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 07:57:56 2010
From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:57:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikIp5PBzXK1aL-BtZ89noYYIRHAcEjsoqqJlinj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2ADE233@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<AANLkTikIp5PBzXK1aL-BtZ89noYYIRHAcEjsoqqJlinj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA5C1166B44F4AB4919B231D32DD05AA@EdDaviePC>

I still have mine!
Ed



From: b Smith 
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:38 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list 
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea to the list...


I am a great scanner and deleter of Grovenet posts.

The overzealous types do come and go over the years.

Every now and then there is an interesting subject to me.

 I still have my official "grovenut" pin.  Somewhere....
Wonder who else has an official pin?

Barb
>_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 08:05:01 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:05:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and  Cat Sitter?
In-Reply-To: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>

Kristy:
I know that feeling, only sometimes the change seems to happen  
overnight, with no explanation!  But an inquiry about specific cases  
will most likely find an answer from somebody on the list.
The most recent, of course, being the closing of Horton's.

Speaking of being away from Forest Grove... when i have to leave town  
for a few days, I sometimes have trouble arranging for somebody to  
feed the beasts (two cats, one adult, one senile) while I'm gone...  
This group recently helped ey find a good housekeeping service, so  
does anybody know of a dependable cat-sitter? Wouldn't involve more  
than checking and setting out cat food twice a day while I'm away.
Walt

On Jun 27, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:

>  This thread reminds me that every once in a while I think I should  
> request
> an ongoing assistance...
>
> Life takes me away from FG at times...and when I return I often find
> something has changed. The name of a store...the place of a  
> store...a new
> hole in the ground but why...a store that I can no longer  
> find...traffic
> changes...
>
> Nothing earthshaking...but it makes me think that someone on  the list
> probably knows. I'd like that kind of info. The larger issues do  
> attract
> some notes but those little ones just happen and I never seem to  
> know why or
> what or how to deal with it. So, if you know the back-story on  
> such, I'd
> like to know too.
>
> I also enjoy learning historical info about our communities (and  
> more about
> those other than FG if possible) to catch me up on all the years I  
> wasn't
> here. Not as a "complete focus" but as a brief explanation when  
> appropriate
> to say why something has happened today, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Kristy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From chuck at grovenet.net  Sun Jun 27 08:14:54 2010
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:14:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and  Cat Sitter?
In-Reply-To: <86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>
References: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>
	<86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4C276AEE.2060706@grovenet.net>

Jean Cushing of Errands Today, a local FG Business, has sat with my pets 
before.  I'm sure the Chamber could give you her number.

chuck

Walt Wentz wrote:
> Kristy:
> I know that feeling, only sometimes the change seems to happen  
> overnight, with no explanation!  But an inquiry about specific cases  
> will most likely find an answer from somebody on the list.
> The most recent, of course, being the closing of Horton's.
>
> Speaking of being away from Forest Grove... when i have to leave town  
> for a few days, I sometimes have trouble arranging for somebody to  
> feed the beasts (two cats, one adult, one senile) while I'm gone...  
> This group recently helped ey find a good housekeeping service, so  
> does anybody know of a dependable cat-sitter? Wouldn't involve more  
> than checking and setting out cat food twice a day while I'm away.
> Walt
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:
>
>   
>>  This thread reminds me that every once in a while I think I should  
>> request
>> an ongoing assistance...
>>
>> Life takes me away from FG at times...and when I return I often find
>> something has changed. The name of a store...the place of a  
>> store...a new
>> hole in the ground but why...a store that I can no longer  
>> find...traffic
>> changes...
>>
>> Nothing earthshaking...but it makes me think that someone on  the list
>> probably knows. I'd like that kind of info. The larger issues do  
>> attract
>> some notes but those little ones just happen and I never seem to  
>> know why or
>> what or how to deal with it. So, if you know the back-story on  
>> such, I'd
>> like to know too.
>>
>> I also enjoy learning historical info about our communities (and  
>> more about
>> those other than FG if possible) to catch me up on all the years I  
>> wasn't
>> here. Not as a "complete focus" but as a brief explanation when  
>> appropriate
>> to say why something has happened today, etc.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kristy
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>   



From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 27 08:25:38 2010
From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
	meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <105412.29695.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

as one who does not often post I would also like to add that most posts I do not
read for various reasons including the ones mentioned most recently.

but posts by certain individuals I almost always read, including Jim's.

I should have acknowledged some of your posts in support to show agreement
but I didn't.

I too enjoy Bob's posts and David's and a few others, some individuals I rarely
read their posts nor the links that follow them. I am all in favor of the delete
feature of my computer and the option of others to participate or not.

the use of these two?choices will eventually create the true direction of GroveNet.

I have learned many interesting tidbits from GroveNet, some are food for thought and
some are community events..................thanks to all who have provided either.

Vickie




________________________________
From: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 12:05:01 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the meaning of community.

Grovenetters,

I've spoken about who I think are the detractors on this list, those who
make it less desirable to participate, and who have abused their privilege
of participation by overwhelming us with things we don't want to discuss.
Now I want to name a few folks who, by their personalities and civility,
represent the heart of Grovenet.

The first is Ole Hoss. He's a hoot as most of you will agree. And who else
greets you each week with at least one cheery, online greeting card
(complete with musical accompaniment). Who else actually says, "Good Morning
Grovenetters,) or ends the day with something lighthearted and fun. And who
never seems to get riled (even when he's criticized). That's Ole Hoss, the
likable curmudgeon who resides happily on his beloved Green Mountain. Thanks
for grounding us Hoss with your light hearted levity, and down home
anecdotes about living in the wilderness. Hoss, you do a great job of
helping us realize the world really is a small place, and that we need to
bring in some cheer once in a while.

And how about the friendly chatter that ofttimes goes on between Hoss, Geri,
Ed and Bob on such mundane subjects like the weather, roses, dawgs, kats,
firewood, and beautiful sunsets. While these discussions may not be
exciting, they are delightful. This is my concept of what Grovenet should be
about. Friends and neighbors sharing, laughing, being human. It's a big bad
world out there, we all know that, and while there is a place and time for
such discussions, we don't want it in our homes darkening our thoughts day
after day. Life is local. Let's stick to local issues and let the heavy
hitting political debates seek other venues.

David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add immeasurably to our
knowledge base about things other than politics. Would you be willing to put
the time and energy into addressing items of a more local flavor? We need
folks like you. You inspire us to want to know more. You provide examples of
how we can all use the internet to better educate ourselves on an infinite
number of topics. As you've seen from the responses today, political
discussions are simply not meeting the needs of this forum. Bringing your
scholarship to local community interests would be immensely beneficial.

And to everyone out there who ever wanted to post something to Grovenet, but
were afraid of the response you'd get, take a walk on the wild side and give
it a try. With the desire to get more local abundantly clear, now is your
chance to make yourself heard.

So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on in our
community you'd like to share today?

jimz
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



      

From admin at ronhowden.com  Sun Jun 27 08:55:19 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:55:19 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>

Walt,
Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:

Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook County,
Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River, on
the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
site.

The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added to
the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the spot
was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the camp
was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
stream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon


Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

"Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There  
is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
WW

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named  
> "Idiotville,"
> Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>
> Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm  
> from
> Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
> I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in  
> Oregon.
> Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>
> jim
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in  
>> once it
>> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more  
>> there
>> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
>> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>> Keith
>>
>> Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>> Barb,
>>>
>>> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it  
>>> includes
>>> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there  
>>> is an
>>> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are  
>>> aware of.
>> On
>>> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city  
>>> nameplate
>> that
>>> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if  
>>> it also
>>> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my  
>>> machine).
>>> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to  
>>> delete
>> their
>>> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>>>
>>> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post  
>>> haste!!!
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Holly -
>>>>
>>>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>>>>
>>>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>>>>
>>>> Barb
>>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g- 
>>>> steele at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2955 - Release Date: 06/26/10
23:35:00



From smithsmith at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 08:57:56 2010
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:57:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Local Theater this afternoon - Great play at a Great
	price!
Message-ID: <AANLkTimL4VgpFw1FzBQ2WMqjKAfIi5t12O4_Y6UNzHnd@mail.gmail.com>

Theater in the Grove has a presentation of "The Saddest King" a play written
and directed by Forest Grove's own Mickey Johnson.

The play is about 40 minutes long and starts at 2:30pm.


 A ticket is only $3!

It is a wonderful play with local children as the sound and light
technicians as well as actors.

I happen to know the jester in the play personally, and he does a fabulous
job and is painfully funny to boot!

Hope to see some grovenetters there....

Barb

From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 09:02:15 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:02:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and  Cat Sitter?
In-Reply-To: <4C276AEE.2060706@grovenet.net>
References: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>
	<86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>
	<4C276AEE.2060706@grovenet.net>
Message-ID: <9BFFDA06-9261-4A2B-80FF-F1EC119CC170@teleport.com>

OK, Thank you!  I'll try contacting her.
Walt
On Jun 27, 2010, at 8:14 AM, chuck wrote:

> Jean Cushing of Errands Today, a local FG Business, has sat with my  
> pets
> before.  I'm sure the Chamber could give you her number.
>
> chuck
>
> Walt Wentz wrote:
>> Kristy:
>> I know that feeling, only sometimes the change seems to happen
>> overnight, with no explanation!  But an inquiry about specific cases
>> will most likely find an answer from somebody on the list.
>> The most recent, of course, being the closing of Horton's.
>>
>> Speaking of being away from Forest Grove... when i have to leave town
>> for a few days, I sometimes have trouble arranging for somebody to
>> feed the beasts (two cats, one adult, one senile) while I'm gone...
>> This group recently helped ey find a good housekeeping service, so
>> does anybody know of a dependable cat-sitter? Wouldn't involve more
>> than checking and setting out cat food twice a day while I'm away.
>> Walt
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  This thread reminds me that every once in a while I think I should
>>> request
>>> an ongoing assistance...
>>>
>>> Life takes me away from FG at times...and when I return I often find
>>> something has changed. The name of a store...the place of a
>>> store...a new
>>> hole in the ground but why...a store that I can no longer
>>> find...traffic
>>> changes...
>>>
>>> Nothing earthshaking...but it makes me think that someone on  the  
>>> list
>>> probably knows. I'd like that kind of info. The larger issues do
>>> attract
>>> some notes but those little ones just happen and I never seem to
>>> know why or
>>> what or how to deal with it. So, if you know the back-story on
>>> such, I'd
>>> like to know too.
>>>
>>> I also enjoy learning historical info about our communities (and
>>> more about
>>> those other than FG if possible) to catch me up on all the years I
>>> wasn't
>>> here. Not as a "complete focus" but as a brief explanation when
>>> appropriate
>>> to say why something has happened today, etc.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kristy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 09:05:30 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:05:30 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
Message-ID: <2DC9AC46-0B47-4239-AF44-C9707A6846E8@teleport.com>

OK, this is interesting! Always been fascinated by ghost towns. Odd  
that a slang name should appear on a map, but "Ryan's Camp" would  
have been pretty mundane.
Walt
On Jun 27, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Ron Howden wrote:

> Walt,
> Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:
>
> Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in  
> Tillamook County,
> Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson  
> River, on
> the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet.  
> It is in
> the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county  
> line,
> approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains  
> at the
> site.
>
> The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was  
> added to
> the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977.  
> About a
> half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp,  
> which was
> part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since  
> the spot
> was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so  
> the camp
> was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied  
> to the
> stream.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>
>
> Ron H.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> ~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
>
> "Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There
> is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
> WW
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
>> Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named
>> "Idiotville,"
>> Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>>
>> Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm
>> from
>> Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
>> I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in
>> Oregon.
>> Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>>
>> jim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in
>>> once it
>>> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more
>>> there
>>> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
>>> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>>> Barb,
>>>>
>>>> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it
>>>> includes
>>>> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there
>>>> is an
>>>> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are
>>>> aware of.
>>> On
>>>> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city
>>>> nameplate
>>> that
>>>> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if
>>>> it also
>>>> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my
>>>> machine).
>>>> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to
>>>> delete
>>> their
>>>> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>>>>
>>>> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post
>>>> haste!!!
>>>>
>>>> jim
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Holly -
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>>>>>
>>>>> Barb
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-
>>>>> steele at comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2955 - Release Date:  
> 06/26/10
> 23:35:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 09:35:37 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:35:37 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the additional details Ron. History is always fascinating, and
sometimes fun (in this case a lot of fun). I will no doubt pass this little
tidbit of Oregon history on to others who will likely enjoy it as much as I
do.

jim

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

> Walt,
> Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:
>
> Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook
> County,
> Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River,
> on
> the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
> the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
> approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
> site.
>
> The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added
> to
> the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
> half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
> part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the spot
> was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the camp
> was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
> stream.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>
>
> Ron H.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
>
> "Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There
> is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
> WW
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
> > Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named
> > "Idiotville,"
> > Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
> >
> > Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm
> > from
> > Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
> > I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in
> > Oregon.
> > Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
> >
> > jim
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in
> >> once it
> >> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more
> >> there
> >> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
> >> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
> >> Keith
> >>
> >> Jim Zaleski wrote:
> >>> Barb,
> >>>
> >>> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it
> >>> includes
> >>> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there
> >>> is an
> >>> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are
> >>> aware of.
> >> On
> >>> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city
> >>> nameplate
> >> that
> >>> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if
> >>> it also
> >>> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my
> >>> machine).
> >>> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to
> >>> delete
> >> their
> >>> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
> >>>
> >>> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post
> >>> haste!!!
> >>>
> >>> jim
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Holly -
> >>>>
> >>>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
> >>>>
> >>>> Barb
> >>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-
> >>>> steele at comcast.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GroveNet mailing list
> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2955 - Release Date: 06/26/10
> 23:35:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 09:38:31 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:38:31 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cooter-Vile, Oregon
In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz <waltw@teleport.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	07:39:18 -0700
Message-ID: <22579-4C277E87-3835@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

Did ya all know that there is a Cooter-Vile, Oregon also?  And it even
has a general store with mail box's with a Banks, Ore zip code at the
west entrance, an antique store, a restaurant, and a mayor.
It is only a spot in the road, but it has something FG does not have...
A Dairy Queen.
Now just in case I have violated any grove tenets, I am sure I'll hear
about, so I'll apologize now!

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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 09:40:11 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 08:40:11 -0800
Subject: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David,
 a general plea to 	the list...
In-Reply-To: <EA5C1166B44F4AB4919B231D32DD05AA@EdDaviePC>
References: <AANLkTintMuRUgDw3DmmMm7ksP9X5LzDdcy04dQsb6Ve-@mail.gmail.com>
	<434882.67470.qm@web81408.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E2ADE233@everest.ad.pacificu.edu>
	<AANLkTikIp5PBzXK1aL-BtZ89noYYIRHAcEjsoqqJlinj@mail.gmail.com>
	<EA5C1166B44F4AB4919B231D32DD05AA@EdDaviePC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilNgLsJgXgJyih3_Zx1j9YZx6X20NqYaQjTVBJa@mail.gmail.com>

Hang on to those gems of historical Grovenet you guys. Sadly, I lost mine :-
(

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Ed Davie <edavie at verizon.net> wrote:

> I still have mine!
> Ed
>
>
>
> From: b Smith
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:38 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A personal plea to Jeff and David, a general plea
> to the list...
>
>
> I am a great scanner and deleter of Grovenet posts.
>
> The overzealous types do come and go over the years.
>
> Every now and then there is an interesting subject to me.
>
>  I still have my official "grovenut" pin.  Somewhere....
> Wonder who else has an official pin?
>
> Barb
> >_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From admin at ronhowden.com  Sun Jun 27 09:50:25 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:25 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com>

How many of us are aware of this tidbit of info about Forest Grove?

The name referred to a grove of oak trees that still stand on what is now
the campus of the university.[5]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon#cite_note-then-4>
Previous post offices in the area were called Tuality Plains and Tualatin,
with Forest Grove adopted on December 31, 1858.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon

Ron H.

 

 

 

From: Jim Zaleski [mailto:jimzzz42 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:36 AM
To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

 

Thanks for the additional details Ron. History is always fascinating, and
sometimes fun (in this case a lot of fun). I will no doubt pass this little
tidbit of Oregon history on to others who will likely enjoy it as much as I
do.

jim

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

Walt,
Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:

Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook County,
Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River, on
the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
site.

The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added to
the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the spot
was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the camp
was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
stream.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon



Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

"Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There
is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
WW

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named
> "Idiotville,"
> Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>
> Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm
> from
> Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
> I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in
> Oregon.
> Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>
> jim



 


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 09:50:46 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:46 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11 -0800
Message-ID: <22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how, or
when we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person
still has the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended
knee and ask you might get a surprise.

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From admin at ronhowden.com  Sun Jun 27 09:53:48 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:53:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11 -0800
	<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>

As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to recognize
each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)

Ron
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...

I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how, or when
we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person still has
the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee and ask you
might get a surprise.






From nospam03 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 09:54:14 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 16:54:14 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com><BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl><1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC><AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com><4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net><AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com><75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com><01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com><AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com><01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com>
Message-ID: <1194853704-1277657657-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1810228838-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Wonder who put that there? Previous claims are of a forest of fir meeting a grove of oaks near present day Yew street. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com>
Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:25 
To: 'Jim Zaleski'<jimzzz42 at gmail.com>; 'Forest Grove local interests list'<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Reply-To: ron at ronhowden.com,
	Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

How many of us are aware of this tidbit of info about Forest Grove?

The name referred to a grove of oak trees that still stand on what is now
the campus of the university.[5]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon#cite_note-then-4>
Previous post offices in the area were called Tuality Plains and Tualatin,
with Forest Grove adopted on December 31, 1858.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon

Ron H.

 

 

 

From: Jim Zaleski [mailto:jimzzz42 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:36 AM
To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

 

Thanks for the additional details Ron. History is always fascinating, and
sometimes fun (in this case a lot of fun). I will no doubt pass this little
tidbit of Oregon history on to others who will likely enjoy it as much as I
do.

jim

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

Walt,
Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:

Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook County,
Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River, on
the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
site.

The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added to
the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the spot
was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the camp
was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
stream.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon



Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Walt Wentz
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

"Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There
is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
WW

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named
> "Idiotville,"
> Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>
> Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm
> from
> Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
> I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in
> Oregon.
> Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>
> jim



 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet


From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 10:18:16 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:18:16 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: Ron Howden <admin@ronhowden.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	09:53:48 -0700
Message-ID: <14049-4C2787D8-5404@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>

Ron wrote .. As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for
away to recognize each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil
that created them. I am willing to be corrected on this. ;) 
Ron
=========

No need to be corrected Ron .. ya hit the NUT right on the Pate.

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From smithsmith at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 10:18:21 2010
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:18:21 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Local Theater this afternoon - Great play at a Great
	price!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimL4VgpFw1FzBQ2WMqjKAfIi5t12O4_Y6UNzHnd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimL4VgpFw1FzBQ2WMqjKAfIi5t12O4_Y6UNzHnd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik4Kh4BhUym3s2qI94XALDCBOJ4kRgALuaRcidy@mail.gmail.com>

Theater in the Grove has a presentation of "The Saddest King" a play written
and directed by Forest Grove's own Mickey Johnson.

The play is about 40 minutes long and starts at 2:30pm.


 A ticket is only $3!

It is a wonderful play with local children as the sound and light
technicians as well as actors.

I happen to know the jester in the play personally, and he does a fabulous
job and is painfully funny to boot!

Hope to see some grovenetters there....

Barb

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 10:27:41 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:27:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten
	the	meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	00:05:01 -0700
Message-ID: <28662-4C278A0D-5231@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Thanks for the acalade Jim... 

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From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 11:01:56 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:01:56 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] another OleHoss Tale
Message-ID: <22577-4C279214-6757@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>

best I could do today..
http://tinyurl.com/AllBull

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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 11:22:57 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:22:57 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11
	-0800<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>
Message-ID: <8498D58A8569414D81A0C90E0C9923D6@GeriPC>

Yes, it was Mark.  (I also got a pair of his matching earrings, which I came 
across).


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:53 AM
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...

> As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to recognize
> each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
> I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)
>
> Ron
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>
> I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how, or 
> when
> we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person still 
> has
> the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee and ask 
> you
> might get a surprise.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 11:26:05 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:26:05 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Council Creek
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11 -0800
	<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>
Message-ID: <4C2797B4.000007.02020@DON-B2514E06367>

Good morning Grove Netters

I enjoy participating in local events. I came to town Dec 6, 1994 and those
of you who were here then may recall the horrible ice storm that hit the
night of the 5th. 

Highway 26 was bumper cars with abandoned vehicles all over the road. I
seems that no one knew how to drive under icy conditions.

Soon as I got my computer hooked up and on the Internet (Grovenet by the
way), I joined a mail list with a few college students on it, and we had
some lively discussions. 

My email address then was donkelly at grovenet.net So I am not exactly a newby
here.
 
Interested in conservation and animals I kept a two year record of what was
happening on Council Creek. I wanted to continue writing about Council Creek
 but time and job at Intel called.

Anyway, it is all about wildlife and I hope you enjoy.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donkelly/Homepage/creek/creek1.htm

Don
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Ron Howden
Date: 06/27/10 09:54:29
To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
 
As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to recognize
each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)
 
Ron
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
 
I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how, or when
we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person still has
the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee and ask you
might get a surprise.
 
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
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From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 11:32:01 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:32:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and  Cat Sitter?
In-Reply-To: <86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>
References: <C84CCDB4.175D7%hannah@teleport.com>
	<86712543-FF6A-42B5-B786-76678CF6F80D@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <42D84B952ABB4A2D8847DB0B3E356818@GeriPC>

That is something I love about G-Net, that exchange of info... You can just 
about always bet someone on the list knows what you're looking for, etc.  :)

Walt, sorry about your dog...


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 8:05 AM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and  Cat Sitter?

> Kristy:
> I know that feeling, only sometimes the change seems to happen
> overnight, with no explanation!  But an inquiry about specific cases
> will most likely find an answer from somebody on the list.
> The most recent, of course, being the closing of Horton's.
>
> Speaking of being away from Forest Grove... when i have to leave town
> for a few days, I sometimes have trouble arranging for somebody to
> feed the beasts (two cats, one adult, one senile) while I'm gone...
> This group recently helped ey find a good housekeeping service, so
> does anybody know of a dependable cat-sitter? Wouldn't involve more
> than checking and setting out cat food twice a day while I'm away.
> Walt
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:
>
>>  This thread reminds me that every once in a while I think I should
>> request
>> an ongoing assistance...
>>
>> Life takes me away from FG at times...and when I return I often find
>> something has changed. The name of a store...the place of a
>> store...a new
>> hole in the ground but why...a store that I can no longer
>> find...traffic
>> changes...
>>
>> Nothing earthshaking...but it makes me think that someone on  the list
>> probably knows. I'd like that kind of info. The larger issues do
>> attract
>> some notes but those little ones just happen and I never seem to
>> know why or
>> what or how to deal with it. So, if you know the back-story on
>> such, I'd
>> like to know too.
>>
>> I also enjoy learning historical info about our communities (and
>> more about
>> those other than FG if possible) to catch me up on all the years I
>> wasn't
>> here. Not as a "complete focus" but as a brief explanation when
>> appropriate
>> to say why something has happened today, etc.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kristy
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 11:38:27 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:38:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Cooter-Vile, Oregon
References: <22579-4C277E87-3835@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4C279AA3.00000A.02020@DON-B2514E06367>

Yes Alan, and I think we had a Dairy Queen for awhile. Didn't it go by by?

Don 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Alan Domenghini
Date: 6/27/2010 9:38:44 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: [Grovenet] Cooter-Vile, Oregon
 
~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! 




_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
 
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From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 11:44:28 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:44:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3D7F65F0-CA5F-49DF-BB07-42DE2E89C6E1@verizon.net>

Holly,
   You never know what happens to the stuff posted on Grovenet.  I  
have a friend who recently lost her dog in FG (not a lap dog but she  
was looking for it).  So, I felt sorry for the dog and the owner and  
I reposted your note to other lists that I belong to in FG.  I didn't  
bother to report it on grovenet because just reporting that I sent it  
along didn't seem newsworthy.  If someone had reunited with their dog  
because of your original post then that would have been newsworthy.
   So, my philosophy is:  post what you want and don't worry if  
people don't respond. Someone or a few someones out there wind up  
reading it. Fewer are thinking about what you said and even fewer are  
acting on it but the tentacles of communication work in mysterious  
ways. You never know what good may come of it, so post away. Yes it  
belonged here.

Katie


On Jun 26, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Holly Di wrote:

>
> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking  
> that maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something
> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the  
> great information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively  
> listening to
> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,   
> People in the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate  
> warnings
> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I  
> liked to hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people  
> are getting their
> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am  
> in the morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get
> the washington county response information, I wish i could find  
> that again.
>
> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local  
> activities posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or  
> strings on this date, school games, farmers market or other  
> charitible sales, dinners, or remind us of habitat for humanities  
> store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire work sales, tree  
> sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. Even  
> commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to  
> invite political discussion
> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so  
> some of the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
>
> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to  
> entice the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act  
> like he had
> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front  
> of my car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid  
> hitting it.
>
> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using  
> that allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.   
> You do
> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I  
> think that would be great for political debates - no censorship,  
> just not holding the
> rest of us captive to your rants.
>
> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a  
> guideline to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission  
> statement
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?
> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit  
> delete...so please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!!
>
> thats my 2 cents
>
> thanks
>
> Holly Divelbess Martinez
>
>
>
>
> To provide information about Western Washington County via the  
> Internet
> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> participation.
>
>
>
> Goals to achieve the mission
>
>
> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and  
> Western Washington County:
>
>
> Access to community resources, both public and private.
>
> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
>
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
>
> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources  
> that exist in Western Washington County.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: redhead854 at msn.com
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
>> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
>>
>>
>> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking
>> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the  
>> traffic.  I
>> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.
>> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
>>
>  		 	   		
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 11:44:48 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:44:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Cooter-Vile, Oregon
In-Reply-To: <4C279AA3.00000A.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <22579-4C277E87-3835@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<4C279AA3.00000A.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <9E6EFBDE-272D-490E-8A84-7439507C3CB2@verizon.net>

Yes, corner of Pacific and Maple Street.  Taken down for the new drive in at that location.

David

On Jun 27, 2010, at 11:38 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Yes Alan, and I think we had a Dairy Queen for awhile. Didn't it go by by?
> 
> 
> 
> Don 



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 11:51:34 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:51:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <1194853704-1277657657-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1810228838-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com><BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl><1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC><AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com><4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net><AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com><75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com><01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com><AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com><01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com>
	<1194853704-1277657657-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1810228838-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <7DEC9C93-CF58-4B22-B8C5-9ACBDF9F3C2C@verizon.net>

While looking for that, I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Tucholsky

Brings back a memory.

David

On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Steve wrote:

> Wonder who put that there? Previous claims are of a forest of fir meeting a grove of oaks near present day Yew street. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com>
> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:25 
> To: 'Jim Zaleski'<jimzzz42 at gmail.com>; 'Forest Grove local interests list'<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Reply-To: ron at ronhowden.com,
> 	Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
> 
> How many of us are aware of this tidbit of info about Forest Grove?
> 
> The name referred to a grove of oak trees that still stand on what is now
> the campus of the university.[5]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon#cite_note-then-4>
> Previous post offices in the area were called Tuality Plains and Tualatin,
> with Forest Grove adopted on December 31, 1858.
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon
> 
> Ron H.



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 11:55:09 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:55:09 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <7DEC9C93-CF58-4B22-B8C5-9ACBDF9F3C2C@verizon.net>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com><BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl><1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC><AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com><4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net><AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com><75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com><01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com><AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com><01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com><1194853704-1277657657-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1810228838-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<7DEC9C93-CF58-4B22-B8C5-9ACBDF9F3C2C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <C317FFB34B9948A39BB6E9492044AE9E@GeriPC>

A good one!! :)


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 11:51 AM
To: <nospam03 at comcast.net>; "Forest Grove local interests list" 
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

> While looking for that, I found this
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Tucholsky
>
> Brings back a memory.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Steve wrote:
>
>> Wonder who put that there? Previous claims are of a forest of fir meeting 
>> a grove of oaks near present day Yew street.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com>
>> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
>> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:25
>> To: 'Jim Zaleski'<jimzzz42 at gmail.com>; 'Forest Grove local interests 
>> list'<grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Reply-To: ron at ronhowden.com,
>> Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
>>
>> How many of us are aware of this tidbit of info about Forest Grove?
>>
>> The name referred to a grove of oak trees that still stand on what is now
>> the campus of the university.[5]
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon#cite_note-then-4>
>> Previous post offices in the area were called Tuality Plains and 
>> Tualatin,
>> with Forest Grove adopted on December 31, 1858.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon
>>
>> Ron H.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 12:00:26 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:00:26 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Grove nut pin and hand sign
In-Reply-To: <8498D58A8569414D81A0C90E0C9923D6@GeriPC>
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11
	-0800<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>
	<8498D58A8569414D81A0C90E0C9923D6@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <EABE5159-52CA-42FC-A7E1-C44F4CB40E4C@verizon.net>

I still have my pin and it is one of my favorites.
How many still remember the 'secret' grove nut hand sign...

Katie
And how many remember that it wasn't much of a secret...

On Jun 27, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Geri Steele wrote:

> Yes, it was Mark.  (I also got a pair of his matching earrings,  
> which I came
> across).
>
>
> Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:53 AM
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>
>> As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to  
>> recognize
>> each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
>> I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)
>>
>> Ron
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
>> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>>
>> I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember  
>> how, or
>> when
>> we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person  
>> still
>> has
>> the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee  
>> and ask
>> you
>> might get a surprise.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 12:03:47 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:03:47 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
	meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>

Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has been reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public meeting, and the Planning Commission has had their first work session.

That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in the city as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use ordinances.

I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on the T.V. Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently does reflect some of that planning, but it must be implemented before it becomes necessary for development to follow the plan.

David

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> Grovenetters,
> 
> ...
> David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add immeasurably to our knowledge base about things other than politics. Would you be willing to put the time and energy into addressing items of a more local flavor? ...

> So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on in our community you'd like to share today?
> 
> jimz
> ___



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 12:07:27 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:07:27 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten
	themeaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9272E3E92D9A4A748F213BC8BB0C0834@GeriPC>

I am worried that T.V. Hwy. is not even ready for Wal-Mart traffic to come 
in the near future.  ???


Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Morelli" <jo.david at verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 12:03 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten 
themeaning of community.

> Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has been 
> reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public meeting, and 
> the Planning Commission has had their first work session.
>
> That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in the 
> city as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use ordinances.
>
> I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on the T.V. 
> Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently does reflect some 
> of that planning, but it must be implemented before it becomes necessary 
> for development to follow the plan.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
>> Grovenetters,
>>
>> ...
>> David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add immeasurably to 
>> our knowledge base about things other than politics. Would you be willing 
>> to put the time and energy into addressing items of a more local flavor? 
>> ...
>
>> So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on in our 
>> community you'd like to share today?
>>
>> jimz
>> ___
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 12:08:04 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:08:04 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Grove nut pin and hand sign
In-Reply-To: <EABE5159-52CA-42FC-A7E1-C44F4CB40E4C@verizon.net>
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,27 Jun 2010
	08:40:11-0800<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net><01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com><8498D58A8569414D81A0C90E0C9923D6@GeriPC>
	<EABE5159-52CA-42FC-A7E1-C44F4CB40E4C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <F2EEEE13C1344594B089C505A4CCEE0E@GeriPC>

LOL, the "secret" ~

Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 12:00 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Grove nut pin and hand sign

> I still have my pin and it is one of my favorites.
> How many still remember the 'secret' grove nut hand sign...
> 
> Katie
> And how many remember that it wasn't much of a secret...
> 
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Geri Steele wrote:
> 
>> Yes, it was Mark.  (I also got a pair of his matching earrings,  
>> which I came
>> across).
>>
>>
>> Geri
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Ron Howden" <admin at ronhowden.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:53 AM
>> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>>
>>> As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to  
>>> recognize
>>> each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
>>> I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)
>>>
>>> Ron
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>>> Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>>>
>>> I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember  
>>> how, or
>>> when
>>> we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person  
>>> still
>>> has
>>> the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee  
>>> and ask
>>> you
>>> might get a surprise.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From obrzl at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 12:16:49 2010
From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:16:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
Message-ID: <1542997431.722281.1277666209525.JavaMail.root@vms170023>

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From ocollaugh at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 12:20:57 2010
From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:20:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
References: <1542997431.722281.1277666209525.JavaMail.root@vms170023>
Message-ID: <4C27A496.00000D.02020@DON-B2514E06367>

Do I correctly recall that a tree planted in Forest Grove in 1850 is the
oldest of it's kind around here?

I don't recall the variety of the tree, but seems it was a fruit tree.

Does anyone know about that tree, and where it is located?

Donkelly 
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: obrzl at verizon.net
Date: 6/27/2010 12:17:14 PM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
 
There'll be no knee bending if I have anything to do with it.  I'm allergic
to exercise and sycophantophobic.  That's my story and I'm stuck with it.
 
Obie

Jun 27, 2010 11:51:07 AM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote:

>I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how, or
>when we came by them, or who made them for us. However, if this person
>still has the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended
>knee and ask you might get a surprise.
>
>
> 


> 
~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! 
> 


>_______________________________________________
>GroveNet mailing list
>GroveNet at rdrop.com
>http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
 
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From chuck at grovenet.net  Sun Jun 27 12:28:05 2010
From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:28:05 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <4C27A496.00000D.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <1542997431.722281.1277666209525.JavaMail.root@vms170023>
	<4C27A496.00000D.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <4C27A645.2010001@grovenet.net>

I believe the Sequoia on the corner of Pacific and B is the largest in 
the State of Oregon.  Not sure if it's the 'oldest' or not.

chuck

donkelly wrote:
> Do I correctly recall that a tree planted in Forest Grove in 1850 is the
> oldest of it's kind around here?
>
> I don't recall the variety of the tree, but seems it was a fruit tree.
>
> Does anyone know about that tree, and where it is located?
>
> Donkelly 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   



From nospam03 at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 12:42:33 2010
From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:42:33 +0000
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
Message-ID: <1269640344-1277667755-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-606639571-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I thin that one is the largest in an urban area in oregon. 
I would find it hard to believe a fruit tree could get to a ripe old age like that. 
I was in a house on C street a few years ago and commented on design. The owner told me that it was made from recycled parts from the house that stood where Rogers park is now. 
Across the street is a large apartment complex. It was once a stable and boarding house. The two story building in the back is the barn still standing. 
In the 1960s forest grove growth was expected to be west. Safe way built their new store across from the high school. Even expanding to a second building, now a church.  FG honda was at thatcher junction. Forest gale heights was started. 
Or that the road there is a bypass. Originally entrance from the west came up A st. 
------Original Message------
From: chuck
Sender: grovenet-bounces
To: donkelly
To: Forest Grove local interests list
ReplyTo: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
Sent: Jun 27, 2010 12:28 PM

I believe the Sequoia on the corner of Pacific and B is the largest in 
the State of Oregon.  Not sure if it's the 'oldest' or not.

chuck

donkelly wrote:
> Do I correctly recall that a tree planted in Forest Grove in 1850 is the
> oldest of it's kind around here?
>
> I don't recall the variety of the tree, but seems it was a fruit tree.
>
> Does anyone know about that tree, and where it is located?
>
> Donkelly 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>   


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 13:07:06 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:07:06 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: obrzl@verizon.net's message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010 14:16:49 -0500	(CDT)
Message-ID: <28665-4C27AF6A-1962@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

Obi Wan
who said anything abound you doing the bending?

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From smithsmith at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 13:08:45 2010
From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:08:45 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <28665-4C27AF6A-1962@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <28665-4C27AF6A-1962@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgL7UakzWx-Hj09tRNk_IcYrLYcQ1EjR5m8VYf@mail.gmail.com>

Theater in the Grove has a presentation of "The Saddest King" a play written
and directed by Forest Grove's own Mickey Johnson.

The play is about 40 minutes long and starts at 2:30pm.


 A ticket is only $3!

It is a wonderful play with local children as the sound and light
technicians as well as actors.

I happen to know the jester in the play personally, and he does a fabulous
job and is painfully funny to boot!

Hope to see some grovenetters there....

If you cannot make it today - next Wednesday at 7pm is the final
performance.

Barb

I posted this earlier and it never got to grovenet, so trying it this way...
:)




On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Alan Domenghini <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>wrote:

> Obi Wan
> who said anything abound you doing the bending?
>
>
> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it!
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>

From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net  Sun Jun 27 13:30:52 2010
From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:30:52 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Grove Nut
Message-ID: <28666-4C27B4FC-1150@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>

and no handshake needed!
http://tinyurl.com/GroveNut

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From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 14:49:20 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:49:20 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
 meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEC0mOfyrHH15NsIBDk30GDXungDL7bgw68mMG@mail.gmail.com>

David,

Is the plan available online? Seems to me this would be a perfect topic of
discussion here since we all travel the areas highways.

I remember a discussion sometime back on the eminent congestion that will
result when WalMart opens it's doors. You had some ideas about redirecting
traffic in that area to ameliorate some of the congestion. Could you please
resubmit that idea? I have a feeling that no one is going to be prepared for
the havoc WalMart traffic is going to cause. Having observed the new
entrance way off of Pacific Avenue, it gives me nightmares. If you've ever
tried making a left turn (across traffic) at Yew St. (even at normal rush
hour) it's an almost impossible task. At least the last light leaving
Cornelius allows for occasional gaps in the traffic flow now, but once
WalMart is in full swing, there will be a multitude of cars turning right
onto Pacific to fill any gap that now exists. The intersection at the Grand
Lodge will become unbearably messy as well. And at the time, there doesn't
seem to be anyway around it.

>From what you know, what are we really facing?

jim

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 12:03 PM, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>wrote:

> Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has been
> reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public meeting, and the
> Planning Commission has had their first work session.
>
> That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in the city
> as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use ordinances.
>
> I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on the T.V.
> Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently does reflect some of
> that planning, but it must be implemented before it becomes necessary for
> development to follow the plan.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
> > Grovenetters,
> >
> > ...
> > David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add immeasurably to
> our knowledge base about things other than politics. Would you be willing to
> put the time and energy into addressing items of a more local flavor? ...
>
> > So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on in our
> community you'd like to share today?
> >
> > jimz
> > ___
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jawelch at coho.net  Sun Jun 27 14:08:26 2010
From: jawelch at coho.net (jawelch at coho.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:08:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgL7UakzWx-Hj09tRNk_IcYrLYcQ1EjR5m8VYf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <28665-4C27AF6A-1962@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
	<AANLkTikgL7UakzWx-Hj09tRNk_IcYrLYcQ1EjR5m8VYf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99fd2aa8aa073335f0d99e61caae970b.squirrel@webmail.whiz.to>





Already got it
once (or maybe twice) earlier.> Theater in the Grove has a
presentation of "The Saddest King" a play
> written
> and directed by Forest Grove's own Mickey Johnson.
> 
> The play is about 40 minutes long and starts at 2:30pm.
>

> 
>  A ticket is only $3!
> 
> It is a
wonderful play with local children as the sound and light
>
technicians as well as actors.
> 
> I happen to know the
jester in the play personally, and he does a fabulous
> job and is
painfully funny to boot!
> 
> Hope to see some
grovenetters there....
> 
> If you cannot make it today -
next Wednesday at 7pm is the final
> performance.
> 
> Barb
> 
> I posted this earlier and it never got to
grovenet, so trying it this
> way...
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 1:07 PM,
Alan Domenghini
> <RosesFromHoss at webtv.net>wrote:
>

>> Obi Wan
>> who said anything abound you doing
the bending?
>>
>>
>> ~A~ That is my
story and I'm stickin' to it!
>>
_______________________________________________
>> GroveNet
mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 14:56:58 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:56:58 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <7DEC9C93-CF58-4B22-B8C5-9ACBDF9F3C2C@verizon.net>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
	<01e501cb1618$d818a0f0$8849e2d0$@com>
	<1194853704-1277657657-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1810228838-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<7DEC9C93-CF58-4B22-B8C5-9ACBDF9F3C2C@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin6gul7uj_4gGpG3Yh0zVi6CjIO4rB1hw76pQXO@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, I missed this story when it was new news, but what a great story
indeed. Thanks for sharing.

jimz

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 11:51 AM, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>wrote:

> While looking for that, I found this
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Tucholsky
>
> Brings back a memory.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Steve wrote:
>
> > Wonder who put that there? Previous claims are of a forest of fir meeting
> a grove of oaks near present day Yew street.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com>
> > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
> > Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:50:25
> > To: 'Jim Zaleski'<jimzzz42 at gmail.com>; 'Forest Grove local interests
> list'<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Reply-To: ron at ronhowden.com,
> >       Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
> >
> > How many of us are aware of this tidbit of info about Forest Grove?
> >
> > The name referred to a grove of oak trees that still stand on what is now
> > the campus of the university.[5]
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon#cite_note-then-4>
> > Previous post offices in the area were called Tuality Plains and
> Tualatin,
> > with Forest Grove adopted on December 31, 1858.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Grove,_Oregon
> >
> > Ron H.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From hannah at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 15:31:58 2010
From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:31:58 -0500
Subject: [Grovenet] Old trees
In-Reply-To: <1269640344-1277667755-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-606639571-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <C84D3B8E.17618%hannah@teleport.com>

 

I would find it hard to believe a fruit tree could get to a ripe old age
like that. 

----------
Steve's interesting note included the line above. I am no expert on the
topic of old trees, by far, but I do know there is an apple tree in
Vancouver that I was told dates from Fort Vancouver times.

One can see it very well when coming into Vancouver on the train.

Does anyone know if I remember the story right?

Kristy




From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 17:26:15 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:26:15 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Council Creek
In-Reply-To: <4C2797B4.000007.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
References: Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42@gmail.com>'s message of Sun,
	27 Jun 2010	08:40:11 -0800
	<22580-4C278166-2828@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net>
	<01f001cb1619$50dfd170$f29f7450$@com>
	<4C2797B4.000007.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <30F4CB14-5018-4E9E-A830-0EEDD0D9158B@teleport.com>

I remember that storm!
I was out walking with the ex that night, and some youngster came  
fast down the hill at B and 19th in a fancy new Jeep, tried to "cut a  
cookie" in the ice at the bottom of the hill, and hit the curb so  
hard that his rear tire came off and sailed across the sidewalk.  He  
had apparently been trying to impress the girlfriend, and looked  
considerably put down as he stomped across the ice to collect his  
missing tire.
WW
On Jun 27, 2010, at 11:26 AM, donkelly wrote:

> Good morning Grove Netters
>
> I enjoy participating in local events. I came to town Dec 6, 1994  
> and those
> of you who were here then may recall the horrible ice storm that  
> hit the
> night of the 5th.
>
> Highway 26 was bumper cars with abandoned vehicles all over the  
> road. I
> seems that no one knew how to drive under icy conditions.
>
> Soon as I got my computer hooked up and on the Internet (Grovenet  
> by the
> way), I joined a mail list with a few college students on it, and  
> we had
> some lively discussions.
>
> My email address then was donkelly at grovenet.net So I am not exactly  
> a newby
> here.
>
> Interested in conservation and animals I kept a two year record of  
> what was
> happening on Council Creek. I wanted to continue writing about  
> Council Creek
>  but time and job at Intel called.
>
> Anyway, it is all about wildlife and I hope you enjoy.
>
> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donkelly/Homepage/creek/ 
> creek1.htm
>
> Don
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Ron Howden
> Date: 06/27/10 09:54:29
> To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>
> As I recall various people on Grovenet were looking for away to  
> recognize
> each other in town and I think it was Mark Oberzil that created them.
> I am willing to be corrected on this. ;)
>
> Ron
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- 
> bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of Alan Domenghini
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:51 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
>
> I have mine also, and I'll even bet most folks do not remember how,  
> or when
> we came by them, or who made them for us.  However, if this person  
> still has
> the capability to do .. I'll bet if you get down on bended knee and  
> ask you
> might get a surprise.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
> grovenet<imstp_animation_butterflies_en_020908.gif>___________________ 
> ____________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 17:31:08 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:31:08 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
	meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <A44AEADA-DF89-422A-A529-6CBBF269F6F9@teleport.com>

If we are going to get more traffic on the TV Highway, we are going  
to get more congestion at the Wal-Mart... at least until they leave.  
We will need additional traffic lanes in that area, a bypass,  
something-- unless we run out of gas, and people start commuting on  
hamster-powered Mopeds.

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:03 PM, David Morelli wrote:

> Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has  
> been reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public  
> meeting, and the Planning Commission has had their first work session.
>
> That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in  
> the city as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use  
> ordinances.
>
> I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on  
> the T.V. Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently  
> does reflect some of that planning, but it must be implemented  
> before it becomes necessary for development to follow the plan.
>
> David
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
>> Grovenetters,
>>
>> ...
>> David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add  
>> immeasurably to our knowledge base about things other than  
>> politics. Would you be willing to put the time and energy into  
>> addressing items of a more local flavor? ...
>
>> So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on  
>> in our community you'd like to share today?
>>
>> jimz
>> ___
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 17:39:07 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:39:07 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A Grove Nut
In-Reply-To: <28666-4C27B4FC-1150@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
References: <28666-4C27B4FC-1150@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <E53AD5C1CA3F4E9A8163C4B8BCCEC536@GeriPC>

Yep! Got there just fine without the handshake.

G



From: Alan Domenghini 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 1:30 PM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com 
Subject: [Grovenet] A Grove Nut


and no handshake needed!
http://tinyurl.com/GroveNut




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From g-g-steele at comcast.net  Sun Jun 27 17:42:39 2010
From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 17:42:39 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten
	themeaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <A44AEADA-DF89-422A-A529-6CBBF269F6F9@teleport.com>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com><0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
	<A44AEADA-DF89-422A-A529-6CBBF269F6F9@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <8CE2F62585C3405B920EFB147633B578@GeriPC>

>> ...hamster-powered Mopeds.

Will Wal-Mart carry those, do you think?

; )  Geri

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:31 PM
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten 
themeaning of community.

> If we are going to get more traffic on the TV Highway, we are going
> to get more congestion at the Wal-Mart... at least until they leave.
> We will need additional traffic lanes in that area, a bypass,
> something-- unless we run out of gas, and people start commuting on
> hamster-powered Mopeds.
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:03 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>
>> Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has
>> been reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public
>> meeting, and the Planning Commission has had their first work session.
>>
>> That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in
>> the city as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use
>> ordinances.
>>
>> I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on
>> the T.V. Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently
>> does reflect some of that planning, but it must be implemented
>> before it becomes necessary for development to follow the plan.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>
>>> Grovenetters,
>>>
>>> ...
>>> David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add
>>> immeasurably to our knowledge base about things other than
>>> politics. Would you be willing to put the time and energy into
>>> addressing items of a more local flavor? ...
>>
>>> So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on
>>> in our community you'd like to share today?
>>>
>>> jimz
>>> ___
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 18:45:17 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:45:17 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>

Ron,

I don't believe there are any signs in the area pointing out this fact,
although it appears to have been located just off highway 6. Full
magnification reveals another road (possibly a logging road by the looks of
it) called Idiot Creek Loop. The fact that it still appears on the maps is
indication that the road still exists. Would be fascinating to explore the
area (real close to Larch Mountain Rd. and I'm pretty certain that's
marked).

Do to it's obvious notorious name, I guess Idiotville showed up on the
historical record and was included for it's novelty value alone. If you take
the time, you'll discover that places like Verboort, and Roy (both of which
have highway sign designation) don't show up at all (and least we not
forget, - Cooter-Ville!

Perhaps we could petition ODT or the Oregon Historical Society to erect a
sign pointing out this interesting tidbit of Oregon history. Now I'm curious
whether or not it shows up at the Tillamook Burn Interpretive Center further
down the highway. Must put it on my list to check out when next I go by
there.

Btw, if you haven't visited the interpretive center yet, do yourself a favor
and stop in for a well worthwhile visit. It is an amazing place. Top notch
in every way. You can quickly get a sense of the enormity of the Burn. Do
you realize that the Burn actually came to the outskirts of Forest Grove? If
one hikes in the foothills to the west of town you come across large burnt
out stumps from time to time. Don't know if they were part of the burn, but
from what I know of it, it's quite possible.


jimz

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the additional details Ron. History is always fascinating, and
> sometimes fun (in this case a lot of fun). I will no doubt pass this little
> tidbit of Oregon history on to others who will likely enjoy it as much as I
> do.
>
> jim
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:
>
>> Walt,
>> Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:
>>
>> Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook
>> County,
>> Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River,
>> on
>> the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
>> the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
>> approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
>> site.
>>
>> The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added
>> to
>> the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
>> half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
>> part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the
>> spot
>> was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the
>> camp
>> was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
>> stream.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>>
>>
>> Ron H.
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:39 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville
>>
>> "Boring" and "Drain" are automatic gags for Oregon town names. There
>> is an Idiot Creek, but that's an actual stream, not a town.
>> WW
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:16 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>
>> > Wow, thanks Keith. Imagine, a ghost town on a Google map named
>> > "Idiotville,"
>> > Oregon. I wonder if it's got a zip code? <grin>
>> >
>> > Imagine if it actually existed today, and you lived there. "Hi, I'm
>> > from
>> > Idiotville, Oregon." snicker, snicker :-)
>> > I think it beats Boring as the most unfortunately named town in
>> > Oregon.
>> > Really curious how it got that name. Any takers?
>> >
>> > jim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 11:35 PM, K. Bingham <kb-ent at comcast.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have never heard of it, but it is on the map. When you zoom in
>> >> once it
>> >> goes away but comes back when you zoom more. If you zoom in more
>> >> there
>> >> is an Idiot Creek loop off of Larch Mountain road.
>> >> I Googled it and it seems it is a ghost town, cool stuff.
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon
>> >> Keith
>> >>
>> >> Jim Zaleski wrote:
>> >>> Barb,
>> >>>
>> >>> Great link! Curious thing though, when I view the map so that it
>> >>> includes
>> >>> Gales Creek, Banks and the coast  (at normal magnification) there
>> >>> is an
>> >>> anomaly I'm not certain the folks who put the map up there are
>> >>> aware of.
>> >> On
>> >>> Hwy 6 between Gales Creek and the Tillamook Forest is a city
>> >>> nameplate
>> >> that
>> >>> says, "Idiotville". Would you and others check it out to see if
>> >>> it also
>> >>> shows up on your map (I don't think it's just an anomaly on my
>> >>> machine).
>> >>> Very interesting! Perhaps someone was having fun and forgot to
>> >>> delete
>> >> their
>> >>> work before putting it on line. Check it out!
>> >>>
>> >>> If it is what I suspect, they'll want to change the error post
>> >>> haste!!!
>> >>>
>> >>> jim
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:44 PM, b Smith <smithsmith at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Holly -
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here is your link to seeing where the emergency vehicles go.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://208.71.205.35/PITS/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Barb
>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Geri Steele <g-g-
>> >>>> steele at comcast.net>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> GroveNet mailing list
>> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GroveNet mailing list
>> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2955 - Release Date: 06/26/10
>> 23:35:00
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>

From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com  Sun Jun 27 20:41:48 2010
From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:41:48 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201006272041.48708.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>

On Sunday 27 June 2010 06:45:17 pm Jim Zaleski wrote:
...
> Do you realize that the [Tillamook] Burn actually came to the outskirts of 
Forest
> Grove? If one hikes in the foothills to the west of town you come across
> large burnt out stumps from time to time. Don't know if they were part of
> the burn, but from what I know of it, it's quite possible.

As I understand it, one of the several burns came to the top of the ridge 
bordering the FG watershed just west of Gales Creek. And as another "by the 
ways," the reason the Tillamook Burn was so devastating was not the size so 
much as the fact that parts of it burned several times. The forest recovers 
pretty quickly from a single burn, but more than once and the soil becomes so 
well sterilized that it has to be re-colonized from scratch, and that's a long 
process.




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 21:32:28 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:32:28 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Old trees
In-Reply-To: <C84D3B8E.17618%hannah@teleport.com>
References: <C84D3B8E.17618%hannah@teleport.com>
Message-ID: <E16956DF-BE1B-416E-AC4E-DA149C36C8A2@verizon.net>

The vancouver apple tree [1826] is referenced here along with Oregon's oldest apple tree [1850]
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/when_it_comes_to_trees_in_the.html
it appears that apples can fruit for a couple of centuries at least.  Peter Stuyvesant planted one in Manhattan [1657] which fruited until hit by a train [1866].

California has an 1873 naval orange tree
http://www.desertforum.com/what-do-desert/2378-californias-oldest-orange-tree.html

Fig trees last much longer.
http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/green/cyptree.htm

Olive trees appear to easily reach a few centuries.
http://www.greenprophet.com/2009/03/07/7407/olive-tree-ancient-israel/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marialuisa/3287944588/

Part of the misunderstanding as to the age of fruit trees may be due to the modern cultivars which are treated more like crops than orchards.  The dwarf and semi-dwarf varieties allow for small trees which are easier to pick and may be planted densely.  They only last a few decades.  Their ancestors were very different.

David


On Jun 27, 2010, at 3:31 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote:

> 
> 
> I would find it hard to believe a fruit tree could get to a ripe old age
> like that. 
> 
> ----------
> Steve's interesting note included the line above. I am no expert on the
> topic of old trees, by far, but I do know there is an apple tree in
> Vancouver that I was told dates from Fort Vancouver times.
> 
> One can see it very well when coming into Vancouver on the train.
> 
> Does anyone know if I remember the story right?
> 
> Kristy
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet




From allnutt at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 21:34:32 2010
From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:34:32 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <201006272041.48708.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>
	<201006272041.48708.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <2100624A-E405-43EB-88BE-A487D49CD30F@verizon.net>

I never thought about the soil being impacted by a burn/multiple burns.
Good thing there's always new stuff to learn...

Katie
On Jun 27, 2010, at 8:41 PM, Meredith Bliss wrote:

> On Sunday 27 June 2010 06:45:17 pm Jim Zaleski wrote:
> ...
>> Do you realize that the [Tillamook] Burn actually came to the  
>> outskirts of
> Forest
>> Grove? If one hikes in the foothills to the west of town you come  
>> across
>> large burnt out stumps from time to time. Don't know if they were  
>> part of
>> the burn, but from what I know of it, it's quite possible.
>
> As I understand it, one of the several burns came to the top of the  
> ridge
> bordering the FG watershed just west of Gales Creek. And as another  
> "by the
> ways," the reason the Tillamook Burn was so devastating was not the  
> size so
> much as the fact that parts of it burned several times. The forest  
> recovers
> pretty quickly from a single burn, but more than once and the soil  
> becomes so
> well sterilized that it has to be re-colonized from scratch, and  
> that's a long
> process.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From waltw at teleport.com  Sun Jun 27 21:36:38 2010
From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:36:38 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten
	themeaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <8CE2F62585C3405B920EFB147633B578@GeriPC>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com><0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
	<A44AEADA-DF89-422A-A529-6CBBF269F6F9@teleport.com>
	<8CE2F62585C3405B920EFB147633B578@GeriPC>
Message-ID: <C152C727-600D-4D23-89E7-8FA452C9A8C6@teleport.com>

Only if they are made in China.
WW
On Jun 27, 2010, at 5:42 PM, Geri Steele wrote:

>>> ...hamster-powered Mopeds.
>
> Will Wal-Mart carry those, do you think?
>
> ; )  Geri
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:31 PM
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not  
> forgotten
> themeaning of community.
>
>> If we are going to get more traffic on the TV Highway, we are going
>> to get more congestion at the Wal-Mart... at least until they leave.
>> We will need additional traffic lanes in that area, a bypass,
>> something-- unless we run out of gas, and people start commuting on
>> hamster-powered Mopeds.
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:03 PM, David Morelli wrote:
>>
>>> Forest Grove is reviewing the Transportation System Plan.  It has
>>> been reviewed by the Planning Advisory Committee, seen a public
>>> meeting, and the Planning Commission has had their first work  
>>> session.
>>>
>>> That document is expected to guide the future of transportation in
>>> the city as it guides the adoption of specific zoning and land use
>>> ordinances.
>>>
>>> I believe that Forest Grove should plan for increased traffic on
>>> the T.V. Highway over the next thirty years.  The plan currently
>>> does reflect some of that planning, but it must be implemented
>>> before it becomes necessary for development to follow the plan.
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>>>
>>>> Grovenetters,
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> David and Jeff, you impress me as two guys who can add
>>>> immeasurably to our knowledge base about things other than
>>>> politics. Would you be willing to put the time and energy into
>>>> addressing items of a more local flavor? ...
>>>
>>>> So finally, I leave you with this simple question. What's going on
>>>> in our community you'd like to share today?
>>>>
>>>> jimz
>>>> ___
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet



From oldredwagon at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 21:56:34 2010
From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:56:34 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community
In-Reply-To: <BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0B98AB94EC4E4FCDAD8E6F4763AD6DD8@JeffVAIO>

Hi Holly,

Here is the link to the FlashAlert message system: http://www.flashalert.net/login.html
Once you have an account set up, it's easy to change your settings to receive a wide variety of news information.  Personally, I like getting information from the Washington County Sherriff's office and Forest Grove Fire and Rescue (also ODOT and the FGSD).  You can submit up to three e-mail addresses or phone numbers (to receive text messages).  It's a great service and an easy way to keep tabs on various local situations.

And along with the other posters, I think this is the perfect place to post about a lost dog.  I used it when our aging, blind and deaf dog disappeared.  And yes - she was recovered and lived with us a few more years.

There are so many good things I find out about via GroveNet - many of the same things you mentioned.  Often the things which stand out in my mind are the ones which others might find unimportant - the hummingbird nest with the new hatchlings.  Notices about Hazardous waste day and recycling options in FG.  And of course happenings around town, like concerts in the park, events at Pacific or great new library programs.  All good valuable things!  

Like many others, I think it might be a good idea to focus on more local events and what we can do to help our community.

Marian

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Holly Di" <redhead854 at msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 9:25 PM
To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Lost lap dog and what is topics good for community

> 
> After reading all the political stuff on grovenet  I was thinking that maybe my post about the wandering in traffic dog was something 
> that didnt belong here.  I have also been thinking about all the great information I glean from being a lurker here.  I am actively listening to 
> what is going on with the schools, I listen about restaurants,  People in the community looking for local activities,  I appreciate warnings 
> like that there are extra patrols out looking for speeders,  I liked to hear about the Lunar eclipse,  I like to hear when people are getting their
> hummingbirds arriving,  I want to know why there were sirens at 4am in the morning, in fact I lost the website that someone posted to get 
> the washington county response information, I wish i could find that again.   
> 
> It would be great if there were some sort of list of local activities posted once a month, ie: fundraiser for xx sport, or strings on this date, school games, farmers market or other charitible sales, dinners, or remind us of habitat for humanities store,  what local clubs were sponsoring fire work sales, tree sales etc ,  kind of a one stop shop for things to do. Even commercial events like the midevil faire, or politcal rallys (to invite political discussion 
> outside of grovenet )  Ok I dont get a Forest Grove water bill, so some of the things I might be missing that the city puts out.
> 
> I used Grovenet about the dog because I didnt have time or food to entice the dog to come to me.  He looked so lost, and didnt act like he had
> ever seen traffic before, he wandered right out and stood in front of my car looking at me, i had to come to a complete stop to avoid hitting it.
> 
> I would like to show some a button on the mail service your using that allows you to reply only to the sender of the grovenet news.  You do
> not always have to click the button that says reply to all.  I think that would be great for political debates - no censorship, just not holding the 
> rest of us captive to your rants.
> 
> I went over the grovenet website to see if there was a list or a guideline to what was appropriate to grovenet.  Only a mission statement
> 
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> 
> So what as a community are our concerns and interests?  
> I guess whatever is posted that doesnt interest me I will hit delete...so please make your topic heading descriptive  It helps me!! 
> 
> thats my 2 cents
> 
> thanks
> 
> Holly Divelbess Martinez
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To provide information about Western Washington County via the Internet
> and to enhance and foster local community awareness and citizen
> participation. 
> 
> 
> 
> Goals to achieve the mission
> 
> 
> Provide citizens of Forest Grove, Cornelius, Banks, Gaston  and Western Washington County:
> 
> 
> Access to community resources, both public and private.
> 
> An access point to the Internet and its resources.
> 
> A  public forum for discussing community concerns and interests.
> 
> Internet-wide access to the commercial opportunities and resources that exist in Western Washington County.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: redhead854 at msn.com
>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com
>> Subject: Lost lap dog on springhill rd
>> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:40:11 -0700
>> 
>> 
>> Just when your crossing the bridge he is one of those lahapos looking  
>> things real furry.  Matted alot dirty face ,  he is in the traffic.  I  
>> couldn't catch him to rescue him, I had no food to tempt him with.   
>> Anyone lost a dog or know some one who did?
>> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

From admin at ronhowden.com  Sun Jun 27 21:55:41 2010
From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] idiotville
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3461AF7D-83D9-4F43-88F3-11E4AFAC1D07@msn.com>
	<BAY127-W3ED69EB6211452B7DD38787C90@phx.gbl>
	<1E48324664F14F52A72F88D76532D458@GeriPC>
	<AANLkTikw3V6X1b_vut-e_aIUxLpfnQF1pinbtZlqLbfo@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim51fIyLV8OpyviQ6do_1NWgvY08cRg1hG3lRnR@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26F140.6080500@comcast.net>
	<AANLkTimSKu3-_IxfggR81c6-SVPA65rtpZYGywiTcg2L@mail.gmail.com>
	<75627881-E8CC-40A1-B02A-76B13D7656E9@teleport.com>
	<01db01cb1611$2590c1d0$70b24570$@com>
	<AANLkTinfFOBH0expbUgTdg3ksYE1mHuhtRGENKPuyjQp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikewl_oranUQh05xd6qxBV38y_0jhpizPJVn5m6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002201cb167e$2973dae0$7c5b90a0$@com>

Jim,

I have been to the Interpretive center, very nice display and information on
the area. Cross the bridge and you can hike a trail along the river that has
some very picturesque scenery.

I was part of a school class that spent a day planting new trees in the
Burn. I still remember that day. My Dad has commented that when the forest
was burning the glow of the flames could be seen in Portland at night.

 

Ron H.

 

From: Jim Zaleski [mailto:jimzzz42 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:45 PM
To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] idiotville

 

Ron,

I don't believe there are any signs in the area pointing out this fact,
although it appears to have been located just off highway 6. Full
magnification reveals another road (possibly a logging road by the looks of
it) called Idiot Creek Loop. The fact that it still appears on the maps is
indication that the road still exists. Would be fascinating to explore the
area (real close to Larch Mountain Rd. and I'm pretty certain that's
marked).

Do to it's obvious notorious name, I guess Idiotville showed up on the
historical record and was included for it's novelty value alone. If you take
the time, you'll discover that places like Verboort, and Roy (both of which
have highway sign designation) don't show up at all (and least we not
forget, - Cooter-Ville! 

Perhaps we could petition ODT or the Oregon Historical Society to erect a
sign pointing out this interesting tidbit of Oregon history. Now I'm curious
whether or not it shows up at the Tillamook Burn Interpretive Center further
down the highway. Must put it on my list to check out when next I go by
there. 

Btw, if you haven't visited the interpretive center yet, do yourself a favor
and stop in for a well worthwhile visit. It is an amazing place. Top notch
in every way. You can quickly get a sense of the enormity of the Burn. Do
you realize that the Burn actually came to the outskirts of Forest Grove? If
one hikes in the foothills to the west of town you come across large burnt
out stumps from time to time. Don't know if they were part of the burn, but
from what I know of it, it's quite possible.


jimz

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Jim Zaleski <jimzzz42 at gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the additional details Ron. History is always fascinating, and
sometimes fun (in this case a lot of fun). I will no doubt pass this little
tidbit of Oregon history on to others who will likely enjoy it as much as I
do.

jim

 

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Ron Howden <admin at ronhowden.com> wrote:

Walt,
Here is what I found when looking up Idiotville, Or:

Idiotville is a ghost town and former community located in Tillamook County,
Oregon, United States, near the mouth of Idiot Creek on the Wilson River, on
the route of Oregon Route 6. Idiotville's elevation is 1200 feet. It is in
the Tillamook State Forest, along the Tillamook-Washington county line,
approximately 50 miles west northwest of Portland. Nothing remains at the
site.

The nearby stream was named Idiot Creek after the community and was added to
the official United States Board on Geographic Names list in 1977. About a
half mile up Idiot Creek was a logging camp called Ryan's Camp, which was
part of the salvage operations following the Tillamook Burn. Since the spot
was so remote, it was said that only an idiot would work there, so the camp
was popularly known as Idiotville. The name was eventually applied to the
stream.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiotville,_Oregon



Ron H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 22:15:02 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:15:02 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
	meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEC0mOfyrHH15NsIBDk30GDXungDL7bgw68mMG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
	<AANLkTimEC0mOfyrHH15NsIBDk30GDXungDL7bgw68mMG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D216B0F-0998-4516-8985-75D75CD4E569@verizon.net>


On Jun 27, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote:

> David,
> 
> Is the plan available online? Seems to me this would be a perfect topic of discussion here since we all travel the areas highways.

While the city posts some planning packets online, this one was not there.
http://www.forestgrove-or.gov/city-services/community-development-planning-agendas-and-minutes.html

I do not know the current status of the city's text and maps since the Planning Commission's work session.  I do know what I suggested.

> 
> I remember a discussion sometime back on the eminent congestion that will result when Walmart opens it's doors. You had some ideas about redirecting traffic in that area to ameliorate some of the congestion. Could you please resubmit that idea?

I will try to make my suggestions available.

> I have a feeling that no one is going to be prepared for the havoc WalMart traffic is going to cause. Having observed the new entrance way off of Pacific Avenue, it gives me nightmares. If you've ever tried making a left turn (across traffic) at Yew St. (even at normal rush hour) it's an almost impossible task. At least the last light leaving Cornelius allows for occasional gaps in the traffic flow now, but once WalMart is in full swing, there will be a multitude of cars turning right onto Pacific to fill any gap that now exists. The intersection at the Grand Lodge will become unbearably messy as well. And at the time, there doesn't seem to be anyway around it.

>From my perspective, your expectations are dead right.  And we may find that autos, trucks and pedestrians who are trying to cross Adair may become "right dead" without a traffic light to force a safe break in traffic.  
> 
>> 
> From what you know, what are we really facing?

> jim

We are facing Oregon Department of Transportation [ODOT] who does not want a traffic light at Yew Street.  The excuse is that lights at Mountain View Lane and Yew Street would be so close together that traffic can back up at a red light and block the upstream intersection.  And I repeat "excuse".  Because Adair Street is a one-way street East of Mountain View Lane, the lights can be coordinated for traffic flow and breaks for cross traffic just as the lights in Hillsboro on Oak and Baseline are timed to minimize traffic backup.  

If ODOT was in favor of the light, Walmart would have installed it, and it would be operational before the store opens.

David


From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 22:29:01 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:29:01 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <4C27A496.00000D.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
References: <1542997431.722281.1277666209525.JavaMail.root@vms170023>
	<4C27A496.00000D.02020@DON-B2514E06367>
Message-ID: <0BF927E8-B399-4CA2-AE15-31D18A90F0F1@verizon.net>

I believe that you are correct.  There was a territorial era Gloster Greening apple tree on one of the donation land claims that was still alive.  It was quite old, but as it is on private property and I don't know the owner, so I cannot identify the location.  

Oh, as an aside, Forest Grove formerly was well known for its Crocus flowers, and there were some sites in town where every spring Crocus would popup from the original bulbs.  Unfortunately, as people rebuild their lawns, those spring flowers disappear.

David

On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:20 PM, donkelly wrote:

> Do I correctly recall that a tree planted in Forest Grove in 1850 is the oldest of it's kind around here?
> 
> I don't recall the variety of the tree, but seems it was a fruit tree.
> 
> Does anyone know about that tree, and where it is located?
> 
> Donkelly 



From jimzzz42 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 22:33:54 2010
From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:33:54 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] A few people on the list who have not forgotten the
 meaning of community.
In-Reply-To: <4D216B0F-0998-4516-8985-75D75CD4E569@verizon.net>
References: <AANLkTim9nCappoMSwTVAdm9WM9Gns6zlD88GlrjL0Xd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<0D45B49F-4E9E-40F4-BAF3-FCBE3B500D42@verizon.net>
	<AANLkTimEC0mOfyrHH15NsIBDk30GDXungDL7bgw68mMG@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D216B0F-0998-4516-8985-75D75CD4E569@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpQ0o7v7rei5-8BmbJs89KhAXj5VLGtYuFSzPq@mail.gmail.com>

It won't take traffic congestion to change their minds, it will take a few
traffic fatalities to force them into recognizing the seriousness of the
issue. I recall in some earlier discussions about various intersections that
need lights (like B street and Maple street crossing the hwy 47 bypass. Now
there are two really scary intersections with traffic usually coming at you
full bore in both directions), anyway, someone came up with some actuarial
scheme that ODOT uses relating to the number of deaths that need to occur at
specified intersections before they'll even consider a traffic light. I
found that to be a dreadful way to look at public safety. If this is the
case then the B street intersection ought to be pretty close to reaching
their "death" threshold.

jim

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:15 PM, David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>wrote:

>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote:
>
> > David,
> >
> > Is the plan available online? Seems to me this would be a perfect topic
> of discussion here since we all travel the areas highways.
>
> While the city posts some planning packets online, this one was not there.
>
> http://www.forestgrove-or.gov/city-services/community-development-planning-agendas-and-minutes.html
>
> I do not know the current status of the city's text and maps since the
> Planning Commission's work session.  I do know what I suggested.
>
> >
> > I remember a discussion sometime back on the eminent congestion that will
> result when Walmart opens it's doors. You had some ideas about redirecting
> traffic in that area to ameliorate some of the congestion. Could you please
> resubmit that idea?
>
> I will try to make my suggestions available.
>
> > I have a feeling that no one is going to be prepared for the havoc
> WalMart traffic is going to cause. Having observed the new entrance way off
> of Pacific Avenue, it gives me nightmares. If you've ever tried making a
> left turn (across traffic) at Yew St. (even at normal rush hour) it's an
> almost impossible task. At least the last light leaving Cornelius allows for
> occasional gaps in the traffic flow now, but once WalMart is in full swing,
> there will be a multitude of cars turning right onto Pacific to fill any gap
> that now exists. The intersection at the Grand Lodge will become unbearably
> messy as well. And at the time, there doesn't seem to be anyway around it.
>
> >From my perspective, your expectations are dead right.  And we may find
> that autos, trucks and pedestrians who are trying to cross Adair may become
> "right dead" without a traffic light to force a safe break in traffic.
> >
> >>
> > From what you know, what are we really facing?
>
> > jim
>
> We are facing Oregon Department of Transportation [ODOT] who does not want
> a traffic light at Yew Street.  The excuse is that lights at Mountain View
> Lane and Yew Street would be so close together that traffic can back up at a
> red light and block the upstream intersection.  And I repeat "excuse".
>  Because Adair Street is a one-way street East of Mountain View Lane, the
> lights can be coordinated for traffic flow and breaks for cross traffic just
> as the lights in Hillsboro on Oak and Baseline are timed to minimize traffic
> backup.
>
> If ODOT was in favor of the light, Walmart would have installed it, and it
> would be operational before the store opens.
>
> David
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>

From jo.david at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 22:35:44 2010
From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:35:44 -0700
Subject: [Grovenet] Gove-Nut pin...
In-Reply-To: <1269640344-1277667755-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-606639571-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1269640344-1277667755-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-606639571-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <269AE938-479B-4133-99DF-429C1CFD7EEA@verizon.net>


On Jun 27, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Steve wrote:

> ... I was in a house on C street a few years ago and commented on design. The owner told me that it was made from recycled parts from the house that stood where Rogers park is now. 

Did that house have the interior stairs?  They were supposed to have gone somewhere around there.

Also, there are supposed to be a house or two