From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 1 12:20:39 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 12:20:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Gun Rights History - Opinion vs. "Facts" Message-ID: <4B8C2197.2000608@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100301/08a311b3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nlj_smlogo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4695 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100301/08a311b3/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 1 13:42:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:42:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Scam alert In-Reply-To: <4B8C2197.2000608@jurislex.com> References: <4B8C2197.2000608@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Just got and ignored a scam call, but looked up the company. Beware of phone calls or e-mails from an outfit called "Fortune Finders," which claims to find lost money in your name. They require a "membership" fee from your credit card, then charge a monthly fee without your consent. From what I've read online, their "customer service" or "membership cancellation" phone numbers lead to dead lines. From a_tom_51 at juno.com Mon Mar 1 14:32:46 2010 From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:32:46 GMT Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon Message-ID: <20100301.143246.13880.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> We also have had hummingbirds all year. I couldn't imagine how something so tiny could find enough food to generate heat and survive. During the freezing weather my wife would pull the feeder into the house for the night and make sure it was back outside before the break of dawn when our little friend would show up. They would also top off the tank at the end of the day. Amazing critters! Tom Alexander We've had a resident Hummer or two or three all winter. I sure enjoy seeing them Kurt On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:03 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Last week, I already spied a hummingbird working the flowering > cherry trees in my front yard. Don't know what variety it was, but > it was definitely a hummingbird. Seemed pretty early. Although, > everything in my garden seems to be about a month early this years. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Alan AKA Hoss > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 12:49:13 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon > > And time to get out your feeders and clean them up. I have four > each a > different type and I keep them under the canopy. > And after 15 years of watching the comings and goings of my hummers me > thinks I can make a farley educated their time of arrival , give or > take > a few days. > March 15 th give or take. It will be interesting if the same two > males > show up first, granted if they are still alive, or not. However, I > shall just wait and see. > One annas & One costas.. they come right up to the sliding glass door > leading to my deck, and hover, I'm guessing they are just seeing their > own images. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=VXb-qCS5iURYDqyEJsoP_gAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 1 14:42:23 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:42:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Scam alert In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:42:23 -0800 Message-ID: <17814-4B8C42CF-5322@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> here is one that should not be ignored, now would an OleHoss lead you on? try it ... ya mght like it. http://www.wtv-zone.com/annah/pages/smile.html From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 1 15:33:43 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 15:33:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon In-Reply-To: <20100301.143246.13880.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> References: <20100301.143246.13880.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <4B8C4ED7.7000107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100301/0d7d1490/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 1 16:16:09 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:16:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hummers due soon In-Reply-To: <4B8C4ED7.7000107@jurislex.com> References: <20100301.143246.13880.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com> <4B8C4ED7.7000107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1796AE71-D9B1-46AA-BE72-D807544B5E6B@teleport.com> Bob: Because they can't remember the words? On Mar 1, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > You just answered your own question!! With how much it sounds like > your wife set out for them, and how much I know my wife set out, > I'm surprised there were not ten thousand of the little guys and > gals around this winter!! > > bob "do you know why they hum??" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On 3/1/2010 2:32 PM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote: >> >> During the freezing weather my wife would pull the feeder >> into the house for the night and make sure it was back outside >> before the break of dawn when our little friend would show up. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 1 18:54:56 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:54:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Why Do Hummingbirds Hum? Message-ID: <4435-4B8C7E00-8680@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> this is no joke, and it is a legitimate question. http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/MEMBGNewsletter/Volume3number3/Hummingbirds.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/MEMBGNewsletter/Volume3number3/Hummingbirds.html From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Mon Mar 1 22:37:59 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:37:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] FGCS Open Enrollment happening now In-Reply-To: <4435-4B8C7E00-8680@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <4435-4B8C7E00-8680@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <969225.64129.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Forest Grove Community School Open Enrollment through April 1st 2010 503-359-4600 www.fgcschool.org information at fgcschool.org http://fgcschool.org/academic/index.php The Forest Grove Community School is a free public charter school that engages students in scholarship, stewardship and citizenship with the goal of educating for sustainability. We provide a caring, smaller school environment that challenges students to reach their highest potential through learning rooted in the local community. Forest Grove Community School, like all public charter schools, is a school of choice intended to offer a unique educational program. What led to the creation of this new school? On top of the normal challenges of growing into adults, we foresee that our children will face environmental and cultural challenges that are unprecedented in scope and that will require intelligent and flexible response. We believe that to meet these challenges our children will need the ability to adapt to change, knowledge of environmental systems, and an understanding of how to live sustainably. As a result, we must prepare our children by teaching them the skills they need to assess and respond to information, to set and accomplish goals for themselves, and to develop strong community bonds. Scholarship, Stewardship, Citizenship Life lessons are learned by living. So, we created a school in which the students and teachers take the classroom into the world. Yes, they will study reading, writing and arithmetic (and much more), but the lessons will be held in the school garden, the wetlands, or downtown as well as in the classroom. These lessons will have impact, meaning, and lasting value because they are hands-on, here at home, dealing with real life issues. From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 10:06:31 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:06:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Message-ID: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/a1e37314/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100302/a1e37314/attachment.gif From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 10:45:01 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Unbelievable, Bob! Just goes to show how clueless this Bunning jerk is with respect to what's really happening out there to common men and women who have been victim to the unemployment fallout from the crash of our economy due to Bush's and his cronies' ineptitudes with handling the American economy. I have been following this story closely, as its results will affect me personally. Nearly 11 months ago, I was laid off after having to single-handedly deal with the onset of my mother's Altheimer's condition. This involved moving her to assisted living, dealing with her countless medical appointments, restoring and emptying her home, selling her home, and picking up responsibility for her financial affairs. At the beginning of this family crisis, my employer laid me off after working for them for four years and after receiving nothing but excellent performance reviews from them. They gave my job to one of my employees who was earning $20K less than I and who I had trained for over two years. My employer's reasons for laying me off had nothing to do with economic hardship because company earnings were at an all-time high at the time they laid me off. Their reasons were purely about greed and increasing the bottom line. Since being laid off, I have applied for over 200 jobs, volunteered for several high-profile positions, and networked, networked, networked. During all this time, I have had two telephone interviews and two in-person interviews. I am told that I either am overqualified for jobs or I do not have the exact, specific, extremely picky requirements asked for in the job that I could easily pick up in about a day's time. Right now, as far as I can see, employers seem to be asking for the world by submitting job descriptions with huge laundry lists of requirements. When I get to the bottom of job descriptions, I often see that they are offering a salary range that is half of what I was making in my last job. I would be willing to accept such a low salary just to get back to work. But, employers do not want to talk to me once I tell the truth about what I was making because they assume (and rightly so) that I won't stick around once economic conditions improve and I can land a higher-paying job. The best I have been able to find are short contract jobs for one week at a time. I end up doing a lot of unpaid work for these jobs because the employer underestimates the amount of time it will take to complete tasks. I am glad for the work, but such opportunities are hardly sustaining and more than a little exploitive. But, at least finding such short-term work gives me hope because it's more than I was able to find months ago. The only reason I have not lost my house--a house that I have a lot of equity in--is due to my dwindling savings. To make matters worse, my daughter--who has excellent work experience in HR, a great work record, and nearly her Master's degree in conflict resolution--was laid off over six months ago. She can tell you similar stories to mine about the futility she has faced in trying to land interviews and job offers. I have had to give her several thousand dollars since she was laid off to assist her with her uninsured medical expenses. This has placed an even bigger financial burden on me. So, when I hear about the actions about this clown, Jim Bunning, I want to just spit. I wonder how one man can hold so many desperate people in the air by such fragile puppet strings. I wonder what kind of a democracy we have, if any, in this country. If unemployment benefits are not extended, have no doubt. This will mean extreme financial hardship for me and my family. This will also not change the reality of the job market or my ability to find work. Not one iota. Holly ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 10:06:31 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Lone Republican Senator blocking a million-plus Americans from receiving unemployment benefits 1 hr 51 mins ago (Tuesday morning update: He's still at it. Sen. Jim Bunning this morning again blocked a proposed 30-day extension of unemployment benefits and health insurance subsidies. The extension proposal came from fellow Republican Sen. Susan Collins of Maine.) Sarah Palin stormed the bestseller list last year with "Going Rogue"-a political memoir whose title coyly referenced the former GOP vice presidential nominee's supposed defiance of the consultants running the McCain campaign. But this year we have a new poster boy for the Going Rogue playbook: GOP Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky. For the past week, Bunning has been single-handedly blocking more thana million Americans from receiving unemployment and COBRA health insurance benefits, as of today, when their benefits funded under the 2009 stimulus law run out. The suspension of benefits affects everyone from doctors to government employees. Since cutting health and unemployment benefits isn't the most popular thing to do in a job-starved recession, the Senate had reached near unanimity on extending these programs. But near-unanimous isn't enough when senators are looking to stretch out the lifespan of benefits about to lapse-they need to reach unanimous consent. And that requirement has delivered a great deal of power into Bunning's hands-- power that has allowed him to block the extension until the Senate find $10.3 billion in spending cuts elsewhere to fund the safety-net spending. "I believe we should pay for it," Bunning said. "I'm trying to make a point to the people of the United States." Bunning has long been something of an outlier, even within his own caucus. Last year, he announced his plans to retire, having received de facto votes of no confidence from most Senate campaign strategists. And now that he's got nothing to lose next November, he's bucking all kinds of pressure from GOP leaders, who argue that Bunning's quixotic stand has done nothing to improve the party's "party of no" image. And indeed, Bunning has seemed oddly cavalier about the broader fallout from his one-man crusade -except that is, when it comes to his own college hoops-viewing schedule. "I have missed the Kentucky-South Carolina game that started at 9:00 and it's the only redeeming chance we had to beat South Carolina since they're the only team that has beat Kentucky this year," he said on the Senate floor last Thursday night. Later, when a Senate colleague pleaded with him to drop his objections to the extension, Bunning reportedly responded by saying, "Tough sh*t." Many on the right and the left have weighed in on Bunning's stance in recent days. The Atlantic Monthly's Megan McArdle called it "political poison," as she says that even conservatives are sympathetic to the needs of the nation's jobless right now. She added that Bunning's efforts would probably be better served if he found "some useless defense appropriations to complain about" instead. And well before this latest flap, blogger Matt Welch wrote in a review of Bunning's odd, belligerent career that the lawmaker has obviously "lost his marbles." Still, some conservative writers are hailing Bunning's efforts. Redstate.com, for instance, praised the senator for "standing strong for the American people," adding that Bunning showed courage in daring "to ask the simple question of how these extensions would be paid for." One thing is quite clear: Senator Bunning is not backing down. When questioned today by ABC reporter Jonathan Karl in the hallway of the Hart Office Building, Bunning refused to answer any questions about his actions. When Karl attempted to follow him into the elevator with a cameraman in tow, Bunning yelled "Excuse me! This is a Senator's only elevator!" And to drive the point home, Karl writes, the senator "walked toward the elevator and shot the middle finger over his head." Watch the video of the exchange-minus Bunning's parting gesture--below: -- Brett Michael Dykes is a contributor to the Yahoo! News blog. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 10:48:53 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:48:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> You're upset you aren't getting your handout? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:45 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Unbelievable, Bob! From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 10:50:32 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:50:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> Message-ID: <4B8D5DF8.50502@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/386b543f/attachment.html From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 11:08:50 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:08:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> Message-ID: <192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Read my posting again Steven. And keep reading it until you get it. I don't think there's hope for Bunning and many of his clueless cronies who support him. But there might be hope for you. Holly ________________________________ From: Steven To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 10:48:53 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . You're upset you aren't getting your handout? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:45 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Unbelievable, Bob! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 11:12:36 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:12:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> Message-ID: <03c001caba3c$52603000$f7209000$@com> > From: Steven > > You're upset you aren't getting your handout? Troll! From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 11:33:38 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:33:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <03c001caba3c$52603000$f7209000$@com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> <03c001caba3c$52603000$f7209000$@com> Message-ID: <4B8D6812.9080700@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/11929481/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 11:49:28 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> <192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/d50e98a5/attachment.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 12:15:19 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:15:19 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Bob posted this and I'm the trickster? Your post covered a lot of stuff. Not much of it had anything to do with the senators vote. I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy hold that up? Holly I have had parents with Alzheimer's, I know those struggles. But is your former employer a relative? Why make the struggle his business? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 12:21:30 2010 From: osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com (Allen Warren) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:21:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <493925.76934.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Senator Bunning wants cuts? Not that this would ever work but the Senate could always start with removal of any and all funding for the state of Kentucky, Bunning's home state, then look in other areas if additional cuts are needed. Allen Warren ________________________________ From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 10:06:31 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Lone Republican Senator blocking a million-plus Americans from receiving unemployment benefits 1 hr 51 mins ago (Tuesday morning update: He's still at it. Sen. Jim Bunning this morning again blocked a proposed 30-day extension of unemployment benefits and health insurance subsidies. The extension proposal came from fellow Republican Sen. Susan Collins of Maine.) Sarah Palin stormed the bestseller list last year with "Going Rogue"-a political memoir whose title coyly referenced the former GOP vice presidential nominee's supposed defiance of the consultants running the McCain campaign. But this year we have a new poster boy for the Going Rogue playbook: GOP Sen. Jim Bunning of Kentucky. For the past week, Bunning has been single-handedly blocking more thana million Americans from receiving unemployment and COBRA health insurance benefits, as of today, when their benefits funded under the 2009 stimulus law run out. The suspension of benefits affects everyone from doctors to government employees. Since cutting health and unemployment benefits isn't the most popular thing to do in a job-starved recession, the Senate had reached near unanimity on extending these programs. But near-unanimous isn't enough when senators are looking to stretch out the lifespan of benefits about to lapse-they need to reach unanimous consent. And that requirement has delivered a great deal of power into Bunning's hands-- power that has allowed him to block the extension until the Senate find $10.3 billion in spending cuts elsewhere to fund the safety-net spending. "I believe we should pay for it," Bunning said. "I'm trying to make a point to the people of the United States." Bunning has long been something of an outlier, even within his own caucus. Last year, he announced his plans to retire, having received de facto votes of no confidence from most Senate campaign strategists. And now that he's got nothing to lose next November, he's bucking all kinds of pressure from GOP leaders, who argue that Bunning's quixotic stand has done nothing to improve the party's "party of no" image. And indeed, Bunning has seemed oddly cavalier about the broader fallout from his one-man crusade -except that is, when it comes to his own college hoops-viewing schedule. "I have missed the Kentucky-South Carolina game that started at 9:00 and it's the only redeeming chance we had to beat South Carolina since they're the only team that has beat Kentucky this year," he said on the Senate floor last Thursday night. Later, when a Senate colleague pleaded with him to drop his objections to the extension, Bunning reportedly responded by saying, "Tough sh*t." Many on the right and the left have weighed in on Bunning's stance in recent days. The Atlantic Monthly's Megan McArdle called it "political poison," as she says that even conservatives are sympathetic to the needs of the nation's jobless right now. She added that Bunning's efforts would probably be better served if he found "some useless defense appropriations to complain about" instead. And well before this latest flap, blogger Matt Welch wrote in a review of Bunning's odd, belligerent career that the lawmaker has obviously "lost his marbles." Still, some conservative writers are hailing Bunning's efforts. Redstate.com, for instance, praised the senator for "standing strong for the American people," adding that Bunning showed courage in daring "to ask the simple question of how these extensions would be paid for." One thing is quite clear: Senator Bunning is not backing down. When questioned today by ABC reporter Jonathan Karl in the hallway of the Hart Office Building, Bunning refused to answer any questions about his actions. When Karl attempted to follow him into the elevator with a cameraman in tow, Bunning yelled "Excuse me! This is a Senator's only elevator!" And to drive the point home, Karl writes, the senator "walked toward the elevator and shot the middle finger over his head." Watch the video of the exchange-minus Bunning's parting gesture--below: -- Brett Michael Dykes is a contributor to the Yahoo! News blog. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. From chuck at grovenet.net Tue Mar 2 12:33:50 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:33:50 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net> I hear you Holly. I was fortunate enough to get a job 2 years ago. I was a temp for 90 days with guaranteed placement. Today, all our temps have a 1 year contract, and no guarantee. I have worked this industry (semiconductor) for 18 years now. At my last job, Intel, I was a maintenance tech, meaning I fixed broken machines. The pay was good. Today, I am an operator - meaning I just run the machines - and the pay - not so good - but I'm not complaining. It was the only job available 2 years ago, so I took it. Today, I make less than I did 15 years ago. I have applied for a Maintenance job four times now. Maintenance Techs get paid more. Alot more. We just had 8 positions open up, 2 per shift. I have 18 years experience and never even got a telephone screening, let alone an interview. And I already work there! They had over 500 resumes for those 8 jobs. They narrowed it down to 175 - they were the ones that actually live in Oregon. They interviewed the top 8. chuck Holly T. wrote: > Unbelievable, Bob! Just goes to show how clueless this Bunning jerk is with respect to what's really happening out there to common men and women who have been victim to the unemployment fallout from the crash of our economy due to Bush's and his cronies' ineptitudes with handling the American economy. > > I have been following this story closely, as its results will affect me personally. Nearly 11 months ago, I was laid off after having to single-handedly deal with the onset of my mother's Altheimer's condition. This involved moving her to assisted living, dealing with her countless medical appointments, restoring and emptying her home, selling her home, and picking up responsibility for her financial affairs. At the beginning of this family crisis, my employer laid me off after working for them for four years and after receiving nothing but excellent performance reviews from them. They gave my job to one of my employees who was earning $20K less than I and who I had trained for over two years. My employer's reasons for laying me off had nothing to do with economic hardship because company earnings were at an all-time high at the time they laid me off. Their reasons were purely about greed and increasing the bottom line. > > Since being laid off, I have applied for over 200 jobs, volunteered for several high-profile positions, and networked, networked, networked. During all this time, I have had two telephone interviews and two in-person interviews. I am told that I either am overqualified for jobs or I do not have the exact, specific, extremely picky requirements asked for in the job that I could easily pick up in about a day's time. Right now, as far as I can see, employers seem to be asking for the world by submitting job descriptions with huge laundry lists of requirements. When I get to the bottom of job descriptions, I often see that they are offering a salary range that is half of what I was making in my last job. I would be willing to accept such a low salary just to get back to work. But, employers do not want to talk to me once I tell the truth about what I was making because they assume (and rightly so) that I won't stick around once economic conditions improve > and I can land a higher-paying job. > > The best I have been able to find are short contract jobs for one week at a time. I end up doing a lot of unpaid work for these jobs because the employer underestimates the amount of time it will take to complete tasks. I am glad for the work, but such opportunities are hardly sustaining and more than a little exploitive. But, at least finding such short-term work gives me hope because it's more than I was able to find months ago. > > The only reason I have not lost my house--a house that I have a lot of equity in--is due to my dwindling savings. > > To make matters worse, my daughter--who has excellent work experience in HR, a great work record, and nearly her Master's degree in conflict resolution--was laid off over six months ago. She can tell you similar stories to mine about the futility she has faced in trying to land interviews and job offers. I have had to give her several thousand dollars since she was laid off to assist her with her uninsured medical expenses. This has placed an even bigger financial burden on me. > > So, when I hear about the actions about this clown, Jim Bunning, I want to just spit. I wonder how one man can hold so many desperate people in the air by such fragile puppet strings. I wonder what kind of a democracy we have, if any, in this country. > > If unemployment benefits are not extended, have no doubt. This will mean extreme financial hardship for me and my family. This will also not change the reality of the job market or my ability to find work. Not one iota. > > Holly > > > > > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 12:38:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:38:30 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B8D6812.9080700@jurislex.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net> <03c001caba3c$52603000$f7209000$@com> <4B8D6812.9080700@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <040801caba48$5236dfa0$f6a49ee0$@com> > From: Bob Browning [mailto:rab at jurislex.com] > > Come on, now, Jeff, play nice. Don't rise up (or down) to > Steven's baiting of us all!! I am playing nice. Keeping in mind my father was laid off with the Woodfold cuts and his ability to stay afloat rests on unemployment (that he paid into for 37+ years), I think it'd be fair to say I have a good reason to be unhappy about the tone of Steven's comment. Still, I was simply calling his comment what it was -- a troll. From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 12:38:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:38:30 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <040b01caba48$53e4b6b0$fbae2410$@com> > From: Steve > > I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy > hold that up? >From the article Bob posted: "[...] the Senate had reached near unanimity on extending these programs. But near-unanimous isn't enough when senators are looking to stretch out the lifespan of benefits about to lapse-they need to reach unanimous consent. And that requirement has delivered a great deal of power into Bunning's hands [...]" From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 12:40:29 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:40:29 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation Message-ID: 1. The Senate adjourned last week without approving extensions of cash and health insurance benefits for the unemployed after Bunning blocked the measure by insisting that Congress first pay for the $10 billion package. 2. The extension needed unanimous consent to pass because Democrats have labeled it an emergency spending measure. Bunning rejected a motion for unanimous consent again Tuesday morning. 3. CNN's Dana Bash noted Tuesday that Democrats could effectively work around Bunning and pass an extension of unemployment benefits. However, she said, the Democrats "know that they have a good political issue right now [and therefore] have no plans to do that in the immediate future." Link to the story: http://tinyurl.com/Bunning-Story Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 12:47:50 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:47:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <622417.43098.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No, thank Goddess my former employer is not a relative. The struggle is my ex-employer's business because he is a heartless, greedy man who laid me off in the midst of a family crisis. Had he waited to lay me off until I was using family leave to deal with my mother's medical issues, I could've sued him for firing me when he did. Problem was, I needed to use up my vacation time before I could go on family leave. So, he squeaked by in laying me off. Catch 22. My point is that even employers whose businesses are not undergoing financial hardship in this economy--even employers whose businesses are actually experiencing all-time highs in profitability during this economy like my ex-employer's is--are greedily laying people off to improve their bottom line right now. They are laying off high-paid workers because they know they can get less-experienced ones to fill their jobs who will work for hugely discounted salaries. So, people are not only undergoing financial hardships from being laid off in this economy, many of those who are still working are being exploited. Big time. That's our wonderful free-market system for ya. How can one senator hold up the vote when there are 100? I believe that has everything to do with the current number of senators from a certain party that now has enough numbers to filibuster measures such as this one, Steven. I won't name any names, but I think we all know who they are. (Starts with an "R".) So, it's not just one guy, obviously. It's one guy who has managed to convince a lot of his cronies to vote with him. Bunning just seems to be the most vocal, cavalier, preposterous, heartless, and clueless one of the bunch. And, there's been no trickster-ing from this end, Bob. Just cold, hard reality. Holly ________________________________ From: Steve To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:15:19 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Bob posted this and I'm the trickster? Your post covered a lot of stuff. Not much of it had anything to do with the senators vote. I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy hold that up? Holly I have had parents with Alzheimer's, I know those struggles. But is your former employer a relative? Why make the struggle his business? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 12:55:43 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:55:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <040b01caba48$53e4b6b0$fbae2410$@com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <040b01caba48$53e4b6b0$fbae2410$@com> Message-ID: <41307.75927.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Interesting, Jeff. NOW I understand. I don't have time or money to wait for this guy to get impeached. So what's next? Will his party muscle him into swaying in the other direction because he is hurting them? Or will somebody handle this the way they handle good ol' shotgun weddings in Kentucky? Holly ________________________________ From: Jeff Howden To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:38:30 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > From: Steve > > I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy > hold that up? >From the article Bob posted: "[...] the Senate had reached near unanimity on extending these programs. But near-unanimous isn't enough when senators are looking to stretch out the lifespan of benefits about to lapse-they need to reach unanimous consent. And that requirement has delivered a great deal of power into Bunning's hands [...]" _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 13:00:38 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:00:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <97630.90081.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sorry to hear that, Chuck. Those who haven't been where you and I have been have absolutely no idea just how bad and incredibly unfair it is out there in the job market right now. Best of luck in landing one of those Maintenance Tech positions. I can tell you really deserve it. Holly ________________________________ From: chuck To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:33:50 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . I hear you Holly. I was fortunate enough to get a job 2 years ago. I was a temp for 90 days with guaranteed placement. Today, all our temps have a 1 year contract, and no guarantee. I have worked this industry (semiconductor) for 18 years now. At my last job, Intel, I was a maintenance tech, meaning I fixed broken machines. The pay was good. Today, I am an operator - meaning I just run the machines - and the pay - not so good - but I'm not complaining. It was the only job available 2 years ago, so I took it. Today, I make less than I did 15 years ago. I have applied for a Maintenance job four times now. Maintenance Techs get paid more. Alot more. We just had 8 positions open up, 2 per shift. I have 18 years experience and never even got a telephone screening, let alone an interview. And I already work there! They had over 500 resumes for those 8 jobs. They narrowed it down to 175 - they were the ones that actually live in Oregon. They interviewed the top 8. chuck Holly T. wrote: > Unbelievable, Bob! Just goes to show how clueless this Bunning jerk is with respect to what's really happening out there to common men and women who have been victim to the unemployment fallout from the crash of our economy due to Bush's and his cronies' ineptitudes with handling the American economy. > > I have been following this story closely, as its results will affect me personally. Nearly 11 months ago, I was laid off after having to single-handedly deal with the onset of my mother's Altheimer's condition. This involved moving her to assisted living, dealing with her countless medical appointments, restoring and emptying her home, selling her home, and picking up responsibility for her financial affairs. At the beginning of this family crisis, my employer laid me off after working for them for four years and after receiving nothing but excellent performance reviews from them. They gave my job to one of my employees who was earning $20K less than I and who I had trained for over two years. My employer's reasons for laying me off had nothing to do with economic hardship because company earnings were at an all-time high at the time they laid me off. Their reasons were purely about greed and increasing the bottom line. > > Since being laid off, I have applied for over 200 jobs, volunteered for several high-profile positions, and networked, networked, networked. During all this time, I have had two telephone interviews and two in-person interviews. I am told that I either am overqualified for jobs or I do not have the exact, specific, extremely picky requirements asked for in the job that I could easily pick up in about a day's time. Right now, as far as I can see, employers seem to be asking for the world by submitting job descriptions with huge laundry lists of requirements. When I get to the bottom of job descriptions, I often see that they are offering a salary range that is half of what I was making in my last job. I would be willing to accept such a low salary just to get back to work. But, employers do not want to talk to me once I tell the truth about what I was making because they assume (and rightly so) that I won't stick around once economic conditions improve > and I can land a higher-paying job. > > The best I have been able to find are short contract jobs for one week at a time. I end up doing a lot of unpaid work for these jobs because the employer underestimates the amount of time it will take to complete tasks. I am glad for the work, but such opportunities are hardly sustaining and more than a little exploitive. But, at least finding such short-term work gives me hope because it's more than I was able to find months ago. > > The only reason I have not lost my house--a house that I have a lot of equity in--is due to my dwindling savings. > > To make matters worse, my daughter--who has excellent work experience in HR, a great work record, and nearly her Master's degree in conflict resolution--was laid off over six months ago. She can tell you similar stories to mine about the futility she has faced in trying to land interviews and job offers. I have had to give her several thousand dollars since she was laid off to assist her with her uninsured medical expenses. This has placed an even bigger financial burden on me. > > So, when I hear about the actions about this clown, Jim Bunning, I want to just spit. I wonder how one man can hold so many desperate people in the air by such fragile puppet strings. I wonder what kind of a democracy we have, if any, in this country. > > If unemployment benefits are not extended, have no doubt. This will mean extreme financial hardship for me and my family. This will also not change the reality of the job market or my ability to find work. Not one iota. > > Holly > > > > > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 13:03:28 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> We'll see what happens by end of week. I understand there's another vote on this going up to the Senate. One question: By what means can the Dems "work around" Bunning and pass the extension? Holly ________________________________ From: Christiana Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:40:29 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation 1. The Senate adjourned last week without approving extensions of cash and health insurance benefits for the unemployed after Bunning blocked the measure by insisting that Congress first pay for the $10 billion package. 2. The extension needed unanimous consent to pass because Democrats have labeled it an emergency spending measure. Bunning rejected a motion for unanimous consent again Tuesday morning. 3. CNN's Dana Bash noted Tuesday that Democrats could effectively work around Bunning and pass an extension of unemployment benefits. However, she said, the Democrats "know that they have a good political issue right now [and therefore] have no plans to do that in the immediate future." Link to the story: http://tinyurl.com/Bunning-Story Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:05:48 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:05:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't know but I find it interesting that they are more interested in making political points rather than working around Bunning. Christiana On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Holly T. wrote: > We'll see what happens by end of week. I understand there's another vote on > this going up to the Senate. > > One question: By what means can the Dems "work around" Bunning and pass the > extension? > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Christiana Mayer > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:40:29 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation > > 1. The Senate adjourned last week without approving extensions of cash > and health insurance benefits for the unemployed after Bunning blocked > the > measure by insisting that Congress first pay for the $10 billion package. > 2. The extension needed unanimous consent to pass because Democrats have > labeled it an emergency spending measure. Bunning rejected a motion for > unanimous consent again Tuesday morning. > 3. CNN's Dana Bash noted Tuesday that Democrats could effectively work > around Bunning and pass an extension of unemployment benefits. However, > she > said, the Democrats "know that they have a good political issue right now > [and therefore] have no plans to do that in the immediate future." > > > Link to the story: http://tinyurl.com/Bunning-Story > > Christiana > =============================== > Christiana Mayer > christianamayer at gmail.com > "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes > a > touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 13:14:27 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:14:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> > 3. CNN's Dana Bash noted Tuesday that Democrats could > effectively work around Bunning and pass an > extension of unemployment benefits. However, she > said, the Democrats "know that they have a good > political issue right now [and therefore] have no > plans to do that in the immediate future." One more to add to this item. It is Bash's opinion/assumption that they "know that they have a good political issue right now [and therefore] have no plans to do that in the immediate future." It is not yet actual *fact*. Until someone from the D's comes out and actually states that, then there's no point in hypothesizing or vilifying. From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:18:58 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:18:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> References: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> Message-ID: Jeff You're right it is an assumption but after watching some of the coverage on C-Span and the democrats are using this situation to their advantage. If they really wanted to pass the bill they would work around Bunning. Christiana On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > 3. CNN's Dana Bash noted Tuesday that Democrats could > > effectively work around Bunning and pass an > > extension of unemployment benefits. However, she > > said, the Democrats "know that they have a good > > political issue right now [and therefore] have no > > plans to do that in the immediate future." > > One more to add to this item. It is Bash's opinion/assumption that they > "know that they have a good political issue right now [and therefore] have > no plans to do that in the immediate future." It is not yet actual *fact*. > Until someone from the D's comes out and actually states that, then there's > no point in hypothesizing or vilifying. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 13:21:29 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:21:29 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/2d5ea93f/attachment.html From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:26:17 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:26:17 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Bob I just find it interesting that everyone is angry at Bunning for following the rules that the Senate adopted. My agreement with Dana Bash's opinion came after watching coverage of the senate on C-Span. Christiana On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Christiana, interesting that you focused on the opinion ("more > interested") and seem to have ignored the fact of Bunning's use of the stop > (which would have been secret in the good old days of R power (and before, I > must also admit)). > > bob "more facts to follow" browning > > On 3/2/2010 1:05 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: > > Don't know but I find it interesting that they are more interested in making > political points rather than working around Bunning. > > Christiana > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Holly T. wrote: > > > > We'll see what happens by end of week. I understand there's another vote on > this going up to the Senate. > > One question: By what means can the Dems "work around" Bunning and pass the > extension? > > Holly > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 13:24:20 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:24:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> Message-ID: <043001caba4e$b96463e0$2c2d2ba0$@com> Christiana, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Christiana Mayer > > If they really wanted to pass the bill they would work around > Bunning. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Which begs the question that's been asked several times and still, as of yet, unanswered, and that's "How?" Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 13:41:32 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:41:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <044301caba51$209edd40$61dc97c0$@com> Christiana, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Christiana Mayer > > I just find it interesting that everyone is angry at Bunning for > following the rules that the Senate adopted. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I think most everyone is angry at Bunning for grandstanding, choosing a really lousy vote to make his point, and for just generally being terse (his behavior with members of the press), crude (his use of expletives in the Senate floor), and heartless (intentionally making a point with a vote that could make or break millions of Americans). I don't think anyone is angry at him for following the rules. Jeff From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:43:21 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:43:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: <043001caba4e$b96463e0$2c2d2ba0$@com> References: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> <043001caba4e$b96463e0$2c2d2ba0$@com> Message-ID: Jeff Don't declare an emergency and it does not have to pass with unanimous consent. Christiana On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Christiana, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Christiana Mayer > > > > If they really wanted to pass the bill they would work around > > Bunning. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Which begs the question that's been asked several times and still, as of > yet, unanswered, and that's "How?" > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From christianamayer at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:46:22 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:46:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: <044301caba51$209edd40$61dc97c0$@com> References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> <044301caba51$209edd40$61dc97c0$@com> Message-ID: Jeff I did not know he behaved in that manner. That is not okay, blocking the bill because the senate did not following the rules is okay. Christiana On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Christiana, > > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Christiana Mayer > > > > I just find it interesting that everyone is angry at Bunning for > > following the rules that the Senate adopted. [...] > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I think most everyone is angry at Bunning for grandstanding, choosing a > really lousy vote to make his point, and for just generally being terse > (his > behavior with members of the press), crude (his use of expletives in the > Senate floor), and heartless (intentionally making a point with a vote that > could make or break millions of Americans). I don't think anyone is angry > at him for following the rules. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 13:47:31 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:47:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <7196690B1ADC44789C3D4658D281AB95@gerianehzkfhvy> Uh, what "rule" would allow the Ds to "work around Bunning?" Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christiana Mayer" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation > Bob > > I just find it interesting that everyone is angry at Bunning for following > the rules that the Senate adopted. My agreement with Dana Bash's opinion > came after watching coverage of the senate on C-Span. > > Christiana > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Christiana, interesting that you focused on the opinion ("more >> interested") and seem to have ignored the fact of Bunning's use of the stop >> (which would have been secret in the good old days of R power (and before, I >> must also admit)). >> >> bob "more facts to follow" browning >> >> On 3/2/2010 1:05 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: >> >> Don't know but I find it interesting that they are more interested in making >> political points rather than working around Bunning. >> >> Christiana >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Holly T. wrote: >> >> >> >> We'll see what happens by end of week. I understand there's another vote on >> this going up to the Senate. >> >> One question: By what means can the Dems "work around" Bunning and pass the >> extension? >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > -- > Christiana > =============================== > Christiana Mayer > christianamayer at gmail.com > "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a > touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 2 13:47:56 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:47:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4B8D878C.6080005@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100302/8ff4f5aa/attachment.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 13:54:27 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:54:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <97630.90081.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net> <97630.90081.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5228D9292249CD93750C7A3F136D89@JeffVAIO> Holly and Chuck - I'm right there with you. For the first twenty-some years of my career, working for a total of two different employers, I was a valued and hard working employee. I was laid off from the second employer when they were bought out for the second time. From 2002 till 2008, I bounced around, working for various employers trying to find a job to start rebuilding my career. In 2008, I finally found a "regular" position for an employer at a salary 30% below what I was making 10 years prior. But at least I had a regular job again with benefits! I was a decent reliable employee, until this past September, when I lost that job because all manufacturing was moved to Malaysia. People who have worked for ten or twenty or thirty years with benefits (like health insurance) and a decent salary, have no clue what it's like when your livelihood is constantly at risk. I'm starting to see employers make layoff decisions based on whether someone (or their dependent) has had a health crisis. The employer figures, they need to cull the ranks of 'sick' employees and dependents, to keep their insurance rates lower. This is especially true for those companies who are "self-insured". How wrong is that? Personally I'm incredibly fortunate because I have a husband who is currently(!) employed with health insurance. And because my job moved to Malaysia, I qualified for Trade Act benefits and have returned to school full-time. Although we are hanging in there, my heart goes out to all those good people who have wonderful skills and are unemployed through no fault of their own. Often the people making the argument, that the unemployed are 'unmotivated', 'poorly skilled', etc., believe they will not be affected - it can't happen to them. Well, there are more and more of us and I'll bet everyone knows someone who has lost a job. And with the globalization of our economy, I hope they start to think about which careers will be left for their children and grandchildren. Globalization is a reality and it will affect future jobs - sometimes jobs which you might not have considered outsourceable. We are not just outsourcing the "grunt" work, but increasingly our design and research are moving overseas. What will happen when we don't produce anything in this country and our exports have dwindled to virtually nothing? Who will support the service sector? Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Holly T." Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:00 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > Sorry to hear that, Chuck. > > Those who haven't been where you and I have been have absolutely no idea > just how bad and incredibly unfair it is out there in the job market right > now. > > Best of luck in landing one of those Maintenance Tech positions. I can > tell you really deserve it. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: chuck > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:33:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > I hear you Holly. > > I was fortunate enough to get a job 2 years ago. I was a temp for 90 > days with guaranteed placement. Today, all our temps have a 1 year > contract, and no guarantee. I have worked this industry (semiconductor) > for 18 years now. At my last job, Intel, I was a maintenance tech, > meaning I fixed broken machines. The pay was good. Today, I am an > operator - meaning I just run the machines - and the pay - not so good - > but I'm not complaining. It was the only job available 2 years ago, so > I took it. > > Today, I make less than I did 15 years ago. I have applied for a > Maintenance job four times now. Maintenance Techs get paid more. Alot > more. We just had 8 positions open up, 2 per shift. I have 18 years > experience and never even got a telephone screening, let alone an > interview. And I already work there! They had over 500 resumes for > those 8 jobs. They narrowed it down to 175 - they were the ones that > actually live in Oregon. They interviewed the top 8. > > chuck > > > Holly T. wrote: >> Unbelievable, Bob! Just goes to show how clueless this Bunning jerk is >> with respect to what's really happening out there to common men and women >> who have been victim to the unemployment fallout from the crash of our >> economy due to Bush's and his cronies' ineptitudes with handling the >> American economy. >> >> I have been following this story closely, as its results will affect me >> personally. Nearly 11 months ago, I was laid off after having to >> single-handedly deal with the onset of my mother's Altheimer's condition. >> This involved moving her to assisted living, dealing with her countless >> medical appointments, restoring and emptying her home, selling her home, >> and picking up responsibility for her financial affairs. At the beginning >> of this family crisis, my employer laid me off after working for them for >> four years and after receiving nothing but excellent performance reviews >> from them. They gave my job to one of my employees who was earning $20K >> less than I and who I had trained for over two years. My employer's >> reasons for laying me off had nothing to do with economic hardship >> because company earnings were at an all-time high at the time they laid >> me off. Their reasons were purely about greed and increasing the bottom >> line. >> >> Since being laid off, I have applied for over 200 jobs, volunteered for >> several high-profile positions, and networked, networked, networked. >> During all this time, I have had two telephone interviews and two >> in-person interviews. I am told that I either am overqualified for jobs >> or I do not have the exact, specific, extremely picky requirements asked >> for in the job that I could easily pick up in about a day's time. Right >> now, as far as I can see, employers seem to be asking for the world by >> submitting job descriptions with huge laundry lists of requirements. When >> I get to the bottom of job descriptions, I often see that they are >> offering a salary range that is half of what I was making in my last job. >> I would be willing to accept such a low salary just to get back to work. >> But, employers do not want to talk to me once I tell the truth about what >> I was making because they assume (and rightly so) that I won't stick >> around once economic conditions improve >> and I can land a higher-paying job. >> >> The best I have been able to find are short contract jobs for one week at >> a time. I end up doing a lot of unpaid work for these jobs because the >> employer underestimates the amount of time it will take to complete >> tasks. I am glad for the work, but such opportunities are hardly >> sustaining and more than a little exploitive. But, at least finding such >> short-term work gives me hope because it's more than I was able to find >> months ago. >> >> The only reason I have not lost my house--a house that I have a lot of >> equity in--is due to my dwindling savings. >> >> To make matters worse, my daughter--who has excellent work experience in >> HR, a great work record, and nearly her Master's degree in conflict >> resolution--was laid off over six months ago. She can tell you similar >> stories to mine about the futility she has faced in trying to land >> interviews and job offers. I have had to give her several thousand >> dollars since she was laid off to assist her with her uninsured medical >> expenses. This has placed an even bigger financial burden on me. >> >> So, when I hear about the actions about this clown, Jim Bunning, I want >> to just spit. I wonder how one man can hold so many desperate people in >> the air by such fragile puppet strings. I wonder what kind of a democracy >> we have, if any, in this country. >> >> If unemployment benefits are not extended, have no doubt. This will mean >> extreme financial hardship for me and my family. This will also not >> change the reality of the job market or my ability to find work. Not one >> iota. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 13:50:38 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:50:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation References: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> <043001caba4e$b96463e0$2c2d2ba0$@com> Message-ID: <88BA7C5329954D2C8BD6ED85E07BC486@gerianehzkfhvy> However, it IS an emergency, with emergency time limits. Please explain how people who lose benefits, even if just for a day, then get benefits restored causing every condition previously covered to turn into a pre-existing condition. (One example.) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christiana Mayer" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation > Jeff > > Don't declare an emergency and it does not have to pass with unanimous > consent. > > Christiana > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> Christiana, >> >> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > From: Christiana Mayer >> > >> > If they really wanted to pass the bill they would work around >> > Bunning. >> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> >> Which begs the question that's been asked several times and still, as of >> yet, unanswered, and that's "How?" >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 13:52:57 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:52:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <041d01caba4d$57b52d60$071f8820$@com> <043001caba4e$b96463e0$2c2d2ba0$@com> Message-ID: <6C54FF0B-5470-49D7-9248-A74C698144CE@verizon.net> Of course, if it is not an emergency and doesn't need unanimous consent it has to go though the regular process which would subject it to committee meetings, endless amendments and ultimate filibusters. All this takes time and the party who would be happy to let things fall apart would gleefully let things take forever. Mr. Millionaire senator Bunning has a job and good health care benefits. He has no skin in the game. So yes, they probably are starting to work around Bunning but there is no quick way to work around Bunning. And the slow stuff isn't making the news. Katie On Mar 2, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: > Jeff > > Don't declare an emergency and it does not have to pass with unanimous > consent. > > Christiana > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Jeff Howden > wrote: > >> Christiana, >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: Christiana Mayer >>> >>> If they really wanted to pass the bill they would work around >>> Bunning. >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> Which begs the question that's been asked several times and still, >> as of >> yet, unanswered, and that's "How?" >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Mar 2 14:17:27 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:17:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] another chicken little thing about falling objects and the like. Message-ID: <1477-4B8D8E77-1967@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Pacific Northwest at risk for mega earthquake - MSNBC Articles either I missed the date this is supposed to happen, or they did not put it in at all. ~A~;?) (pain in the neck)Hoss -------------- next part -------------- http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=35674095&pg1=1 From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 14:25:31 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:25:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] 3/8/10 prgm at Pacific:Human trafficking of kids In-Reply-To: <4D5228D9292249CD93750C7A3F136D89@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <987324.21644.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND PROSTITUTION AWARENESS WEEK? Nola Brantley:? ?Every child is too valuable to be bought and sold? Date:? Monday, March 8th Time:? 12:45 to 2 Place:? PULSE, Pacific University, University Center (see map at www.pacificu.edu) ? ? ? Nola Brantley, the Executive Director of Motivating Inspiring Supporting & Serving Sexually Exploited Youth or MISSSEY based in Oakland California, is scheduled to speak at Pacific. Nola is a survivor of childhood sexual exploitation and her experience led her to advocacy.? Come hear her story and learn about MISSSEY, an organization that responds to the needs of commercially sexually exploited children through advocacy, specialized treatment and recovery services, education, training, and data reporting. Contact Celeste Goulding (celeste at pacificu.edu) for information. Sponsors:? Center for Civil Engagement, Center for Gender Equity, Social Work Club, Oregonians Against Trafficking Humans Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity ? From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 2 14:30:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:30:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Steve, Holly's comments about her former employer remind me of a rather ghastly story from World War I. That war, like any modern war, was made more horrible because technology had outpaced tactics. Such modern developments as poison gas, barbed wire entanglements and machine guns had changed the dynamics of warfare-- but the British officers were still fighting with the tactics of the last war, and so an entire generation of Britain's youth was lost. Thousands of young Tommies were sent charging into the barbed wire, where they were cut down like ripe wheat by the German machine guns. As the survivors stumbled back to their trenches, they were followed by the screams of their wounded comrades trapped on the wire. Afterward, as the exhausted soldiers stood their watches on the firing steps, they had to listen to the groans and pleadings from no- man's-land. To leave the trench and attempt a rescue was to risk being cut down by German bullets-- and probably against orders anyway. And constant fear has a brutalizing effect. The worn-out soldiers, traumatized and clinging to the relative safety of their filthy trenches, listening to those agonized pleadings, began to yell a selfish, heartless reply: "I'm all right, Jack!" That became a catchphrase defining the horror of war in the trenches. "I'm all right, Jack!" Ghastly, of course. We'd never be guilty of that sort of selfish brutality in peacetime--of course not. And yet... After the war ended, as thousands of veterans came back to Britain and all tried to find work at once, they had a hard time finding any work at all. Pensions for the wounded were tiny, and other assistance was minimal. Young men who had fought and bled for their country were reduced to begging for any chance at all, while those who were already comfortable and secure came up with a variation on the horrible wartime catchphrase: "I've got mine, Jack!" When the Great Depression threw millions out of work worldwide, that smug, dismissive phrase became universal, even here in the USA: "I've got mine, Jack!" Amazing how durable that old phrase has become. Monumental corporate swindles destroy the life savings of the retired and elderly? "I've got mine, Jack!" Bankers operate a gigantic Ponzi scheme with worthless "derivatives," bringing the nation's economy to the brink of disaster-- and then, after being rescued by the taxpayers, reward themselves with obscene bonuses? "I've got mine, Jack!" Insurance companies abandon any pretense at a rational balance of profits versus payouts, and price working families out of the market? "I've got mine, Jack!" Uninsured medical emergencies bankrupt thousands of families, causing them to lose their homes and livelihoods? "I've got mine, Jack!" Prosperous companies methodically weed out loyal, longtime employees to replace them with desperate newcomers? "I've got mine, Jack!" Legislators, paid by their constituents, betray those constituents by obstructing, lying about and destroying any attempts to bring the American way of life back to any rational balance, as more and more of the nation's wealth pours into the coffers of a tiny minority, jobs and industries are shipped overseas, and labor laws,financial regulations and environmental protections are methodically gutted? "I've got mine, Jack!" Tell you what, Steve. When you can't answer a progressive's argument except with a snide crack or a feeble joke, just give the good old, time-tested response to "the other guy's" problems: "I've got mine, Jack!" Eventually, all of us will be "the other guy..." On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Steve wrote: > Bob posted this and I'm the trickster? > Your post covered a lot of stuff. Not much of it had anything to do > with the senators vote. > I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy hold that up? > Holly I have had parents with Alzheimer's, I know those struggles. > But is your former employer a relative? Why make the struggle his > business? > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 14:35:55 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:35:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com><919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net><97630.90081.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4D5228D9292249CD93750C7A3F136D89@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Marian said: "Well, there are more and more of us and I'll bet everyone knows someone who has lost a job." I feel the key word there is "us." There are those of us who think in those terms (i.e., how can we take the best care of the greatest number of "us")... then there those who always, always define themselves in opposition to some "other." Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marian Cakarnis" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > Holly and Chuck - I'm right there with you. For the first twenty-some > years of my career, working for a total of two different employers, I was a > valued and hard working employee. I was laid off from the second employer > when they were bought out for the second time. From 2002 till 2008, I > bounced around, working for various employers trying to find a job to start > rebuilding my career. In 2008, I finally found a "regular" position for an > employer at a salary 30% below what I was making 10 years prior. But at > least I had a regular job again with benefits! I was a decent reliable > employee, until this past September, when I lost that job because all > manufacturing was moved to Malaysia. > > People who have worked for ten or twenty or thirty years with benefits (like > health insurance) and a decent salary, have no clue what it's like when your > livelihood is constantly at risk. I'm starting to see employers make layoff > decisions based on whether someone (or their dependent) has had a health > crisis. The employer figures, they need to cull the ranks of 'sick' > employees and dependents, to keep their insurance rates lower. This is > especially true for those companies who are "self-insured". How wrong is > that? > > Personally I'm incredibly fortunate because I have a husband who is > currently(!) employed with health insurance. And because my job moved to > Malaysia, I qualified for Trade Act benefits and have returned to school > full-time. Although we are hanging in there, my heart goes out to all those > good people who have wonderful skills and are unemployed through no fault of > their own. Often the people making the argument, that the unemployed are > 'unmotivated', 'poorly skilled', etc., believe they will not be affected - > it can't happen to them. Well, there are more and more of us and I'll bet > everyone knows someone who has lost a job. And with the globalization of > our economy, I hope they start to think about which careers will be left for > their children and grandchildren. Globalization is a reality and it will > affect future jobs - sometimes jobs which you might not have considered > outsourceable. We are not just outsourcing the "grunt" work, but > increasingly our design and research are moving overseas. What will happen > when we don't produce anything in this country and our exports have dwindled > to virtually nothing? Who will support the service sector? > > Marian > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Holly T." > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:00 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > >> Sorry to hear that, Chuck. >> >> Those who haven't been where you and I have been have absolutely no idea >> just how bad and incredibly unfair it is out there in the job market right >> now. >> >> Best of luck in landing one of those Maintenance Tech positions. I can >> tell you really deserve it. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: chuck >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 12:33:50 PM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . >> >> I hear you Holly. >> >> I was fortunate enough to get a job 2 years ago. I was a temp for 90 >> days with guaranteed placement. Today, all our temps have a 1 year >> contract, and no guarantee. I have worked this industry (semiconductor) >> for 18 years now. At my last job, Intel, I was a maintenance tech, >> meaning I fixed broken machines. The pay was good. Today, I am an >> operator - meaning I just run the machines - and the pay - not so good - >> but I'm not complaining. It was the only job available 2 years ago, so >> I took it. >> >> Today, I make less than I did 15 years ago. I have applied for a >> Maintenance job four times now. Maintenance Techs get paid more. Alot >> more. We just had 8 positions open up, 2 per shift. I have 18 years >> experience and never even got a telephone screening, let alone an >> interview. And I already work there! They had over 500 resumes for >> those 8 jobs. They narrowed it down to 175 - they were the ones that >> actually live in Oregon. They interviewed the top 8. >> >> chuck >> >> >> Holly T. wrote: >>> Unbelievable, Bob! Just goes to show how clueless this Bunning jerk is >>> with respect to what's really happening out there to common men and women >>> who have been victim to the unemployment fallout from the crash of our >>> economy due to Bush's and his cronies' ineptitudes with handling the >>> American economy. >>> >>> I have been following this story closely, as its results will affect me >>> personally. Nearly 11 months ago, I was laid off after having to >>> single-handedly deal with the onset of my mother's Altheimer's condition. >>> This involved moving her to assisted living, dealing with her countless >>> medical appointments, restoring and emptying her home, selling her home, >>> and picking up responsibility for her financial affairs. At the beginning >>> of this family crisis, my employer laid me off after working for them for >>> four years and after receiving nothing but excellent performance reviews >>> from them. They gave my job to one of my employees who was earning $20K >>> less than I and who I had trained for over two years. My employer's >>> reasons for laying me off had nothing to do with economic hardship >>> because company earnings were at an all-time high at the time they laid >>> me off. Their reasons were purely about greed and increasing the bottom >>> line. >>> >>> Since being laid off, I have applied for over 200 jobs, volunteered for >>> several high-profile positions, and networked, networked, networked. >>> During all this time, I have had two telephone interviews and two >>> in-person interviews. I am told that I either am overqualified for jobs >>> or I do not have the exact, specific, extremely picky requirements asked >>> for in the job that I could easily pick up in about a day's time. Right >>> now, as far as I can see, employers seem to be asking for the world by >>> submitting job descriptions with huge laundry lists of requirements. When >>> I get to the bottom of job descriptions, I often see that they are >>> offering a salary range that is half of what I was making in my last job. >>> I would be willing to accept such a low salary just to get back to work. >>> But, employers do not want to talk to me once I tell the truth about what >>> I was making because they assume (and rightly so) that I won't stick >>> around once economic conditions improve >>> and I can land a higher-paying job. >>> >>> The best I have been able to find are short contract jobs for one week at >>> a time. I end up doing a lot of unpaid work for these jobs because the >>> employer underestimates the amount of time it will take to complete >>> tasks. I am glad for the work, but such opportunities are hardly >>> sustaining and more than a little exploitive. But, at least finding such >>> short-term work gives me hope because it's more than I was able to find >>> months ago. >>> >>> The only reason I have not lost my house--a house that I have a lot of >>> equity in--is due to my dwindling savings. >>> >>> To make matters worse, my daughter--who has excellent work experience in >>> HR, a great work record, and nearly her Master's degree in conflict >>> resolution--was laid off over six months ago. She can tell you similar >>> stories to mine about the futility she has faced in trying to land >>> interviews and job offers. I have had to give her several thousand >>> dollars since she was laid off to assist her with her uninsured medical >>> expenses. This has placed an even bigger financial burden on me. >>> >>> So, when I hear about the actions about this clown, Jim Bunning, I want >>> to just spit. I wonder how one man can hold so many desperate people in >>> the air by such fragile puppet strings. I wonder what kind of a democracy >>> we have, if any, in this country. >>> >>> If unemployment benefits are not extended, have no doubt. This will mean >>> extreme financial hardship for me and my family. This will also not >>> change the reality of the job market or my ability to find work. Not one >>> iota. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 14:40:34 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:40:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Irish music at the library tonight! In-Reply-To: <4D5228D9292249CD93750C7A3F136D89@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <345916.15628.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Irish Music by "Innisfree." Event Type:Program for All Ages Date:Tuesday, March 02, 2010 Time:7:00 PM to 8:00 PM Forest Grove City Library - The Rogers Room From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 2 15:09:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:09:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com><919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D762E.9050801@grovenet.net><97630.90081.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4D5228D9292249CD93750C7A3F136D89@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: On Mar 2, 2010, at 2:35 PM, Geri wrote: > Marian said: "Well, there are more and more of us and I'll bet > everyone knows someone who has lost a job." > > I feel the key word there is "us." There are those of us > who think in those terms (i.e., how can we take the best > care of the greatest number of "us")... then there those > who always, always define themselves in opposition to > some "other." > > Geri Holly's comments about her former employer, and a few "conservative" responses, remind me of a rather ghastly story from World War I. That war, like any modern war, was made more horrible because technology had outpaced tactics. Such modern developments as poison gas, barbed wire entanglements and machine guns had changed the dynamics of warfare-- but the British officers were still fighting with the tactics of the last war, and so an entire generation of Britain's youth was lost. Thousands of young Tommies were sent charging into the barbed wire, where they were cut down like ripe wheat by the German machine guns. As the survivors stumbled back to their trenches, they were followed by the screams of their wounded comrades trapped on the wire. Afterward, as the exhausted soldiers stood their watches on the firing steps, they had to listen to the groans and pleadings from no- man's-land. To leave the trench and attempt a rescue was to risk being cut down by German bullets-- and probably against orders anyway. And constant fear has a brutalizing effect. The worn-out soldiers, traumatized and clinging to the relative safety of their filthy trenches, listening to those agonized pleadings, began to yell a brutally sarcastic reply: "I'm all right, Jack!" That became a catchphrase defining the horror of war in the trenches. "I'm all right, Jack!" Ghastly, of course. We'd never be guilty of that sort of selfish brutality in peacetime, would we? --of course not. And yet... After the war ended, as thousands of veterans came back to Britain and all tried to find work at once, they had a hard time finding any work at all. Pensions for the wounded were tiny, and other assistance was minimal. Young men who had fought and bled for their country were reduced to begging for any help at all, while those who were already comfortable and secure came up with a variation on the horrible old wartime catchphrase: "I've got mine, Jack!" When the Great Depression threw millions out of work worldwide, that smug, dismissive phrase became universal, even here in the USA: "I've got mine, Jack!" Amazing how durable that old phrase has become. Monumental corporate swindles destroy the life savings of the retired and elderly? "I've got mine, Jack!" Bankers operate a gigantic Ponzi scheme with worthless "derivatives," bringing the nation's economy to the brink of disaster-- and then, after being rescued by the taxpayers, reward themselves with obscene bonuses? "I've got mine, Jack!" Insurance companies abandon any pretense at a rational balance of profits versus payouts, and price working families out of the market? "I've got mine, Jack!" Uninsured medical emergencies bankrupt thousands of families, causing them to lose their homes and livelihoods? "I've got mine, Jack!" Prosperous companies methodically weed out loyal, longtime employees to replace them with desperate newcomers? "I've got mine, Jack!" Legislators, paid by their constituents, betray those constituents by obstructing, lying about and destroying any attempts to bring the American way of life back to any rational balance, as more and more of the nation's wealth pours into the coffers of a tiny minority, jobs and industries are shipped overseas, and labor laws,financial regulations and environmental protections are methodically gutted? "I've got mine, Jack!" Tell you what, "Conservatives.".When you can't answer a progressive's argument except with a snide crack or a feeble joke, just give the good old, time-tested response to "the other guy's" problems: "I've got mine, Jack!" Eventually, all of us will be "the other guy..." From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 15:15:22 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:15:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Some facts about Bunning situation In-Reply-To: References: <48949.78886.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B8D8159.3010700@jurislex.com> <044301caba51$209edd40$61dc97c0$@com> Message-ID: <22362FA2-5DAD-4FC3-93FB-613A07FE52A0@verizon.net> One other interesting fact about the millionaire senator from Kentucky is that he says he supports the bill but just wants it paid for. Yet what has he offered in the way of compensating cuts? Yep, you know the answer. He hasn't offered any ideas. This is scorched earth policy from the guy who is retiring and likely has a nice cushy job all lined up as a lobbyist. He wants it paid for but has not offered any suggestions for what to cut. He says he is for it in the end but wants to obstruct it for now. Inflicting maximum damage for dramatic effect. Not no, but hell no and he throws in the middle finger for emphasis. He's not blocking the bill because the senate did not follow the rules. The rules allow him to block it all by himself. I am thankful that these holds are now public and are no longer done in secret. Katie On Mar 2, 2010, at 1:46 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: > Jeff > > I did not know he behaved in that manner. That is not okay, > blocking the > bill because the senate did not following the rules is okay. > > Christiana > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Jeff Howden > wrote: > >> Christiana, >> >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >>> From: Christiana Mayer >>> >>> I just find it interesting that everyone is angry at Bunning for >>> following the rules that the Senate adopted. [...] >>> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >>> < >> >> I think most everyone is angry at Bunning for grandstanding, >> choosing a >> really lousy vote to make his point, and for just generally being >> terse >> (his >> behavior with members of the press), crude (his use of expletives >> in the >> Senate floor), and heartless (intentionally making a point with a >> vote that >> could make or break millions of Americans). I don't think anyone >> is angry >> at him for following the rules. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > -- > Christiana > =============================== > Christiana Mayer > christianamayer at gmail.com > "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. > It takes a > touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite > direction." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 16:10:39 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:10:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Thanks Walt - well said! -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 2:30 PM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > Steve, Holly's comments about her former employer remind me of a > rather ghastly story from World War I. > > That war, like any modern war, was made more horrible because > technology had outpaced tactics. Such modern developments as poison > gas, barbed wire entanglements and machine guns had changed the > dynamics of warfare-- but the British officers were still fighting > with the tactics of the last war, and so an entire generation of > Britain's youth was lost. Thousands of young Tommies were sent > charging into the barbed wire, where they were cut down like ripe > wheat by the German machine guns. > As the survivors stumbled back to their trenches, they were followed > by the screams of their wounded comrades trapped on the wire. > Afterward, as the exhausted soldiers stood their watches on the > firing steps, they had to listen to the groans and pleadings from no- > man's-land. > To leave the trench and attempt a rescue was to risk being cut down > by German bullets-- and probably against orders anyway. And constant > fear has a brutalizing effect. The worn-out soldiers, traumatized and > clinging to the relative safety of their filthy trenches, listening > to those agonized pleadings, began to yell a selfish, heartless reply: > "I'm all right, Jack!" > That became a catchphrase defining the horror of war in the trenches. > "I'm all right, Jack!" Ghastly, of course. We'd never be guilty of > that sort of selfish brutality in peacetime--of course not. > > And yet... > After the war ended, as thousands of veterans came back to Britain > and all tried to find work at once, they had a hard time finding any > work at all. Pensions for the wounded were tiny, and other assistance > was minimal. Young men who had fought and bled for their country were > reduced to begging for any chance at all, while those who were > already comfortable and secure came up with a variation on the > horrible wartime catchphrase: > "I've got mine, Jack!" > When the Great Depression threw millions out of work worldwide, that > smug, dismissive phrase became universal, even here in the USA: > "I've got mine, Jack!" > > Amazing how durable that old phrase has become. > Monumental corporate swindles destroy the life savings of the retired > and elderly? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Bankers operate a gigantic Ponzi scheme with worthless "derivatives," > bringing the nation's economy to the brink of disaster-- and then, > after being rescued by the taxpayers, reward themselves with obscene > bonuses? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Insurance companies abandon any pretense at a rational balance of > profits versus payouts, and price working families out of the market? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Uninsured medical emergencies bankrupt thousands of families, causing > them to lose their homes and livelihoods? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Prosperous companies methodically weed out loyal, longtime employees > to replace them with desperate newcomers? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Legislators, paid by their constituents, betray those constituents by > obstructing, lying about and destroying any attempts to bring the > American way of life back to any rational balance, as more and more > of the nation's wealth pours into the coffers of a tiny minority, > jobs and industries are shipped overseas, and labor laws,financial > regulations and environmental protections are methodically gutted? > "I've got mine, Jack!" > Tell you what, Steve. When you can't answer a progressive's argument > except with a snide crack or a feeble joke, just give the good old, > time-tested response to "the other guy's" problems: > "I've got mine, Jack!" > > Eventually, all of us will be "the other guy..." > > > > On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Steve wrote: > >> Bob posted this and I'm the trickster? >> Your post covered a lot of stuff. Not much of it had anything to do >> with the senators vote. >> I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy hold that up? >> Holly I have had parents with Alzheimer's, I know those struggles. >> But is your former employer a relative? Why make the struggle his >> business? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Browning >> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 18:38:21 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> You really have to find a way to get your posting below posted, Walt. Posted somewhere that vast numbers of people can read it. So beautifully and brilliantly put. Thank you. You know, those of "us" who are still gainfully employed and who have had the good fortune of not having "our" incomes decreased in this economy...those extremely lucky ones of "us"..."we" must feel pretty good about the way things are as long as "we" aren't related to or friends with those of "us" who "have lost ours". After all, those who still have their savings and good incomes are able to take advantage of great sales on merchandise in this economy. They can buy flat screen plasma TVs and iPods and cars at great prices. They can buy homes at hugely discounted prices. I can understand where, for some people, this economy could be the best thing ever. But, I think, the questions to be asked are: How long will it take before the same misfortunes that have touched my family will touch you and yours? --and-- How long would your savings last if you lost your job, you couldn't find another, and your unemployment and COBRA benefits ran out? But, then, most of "us" wouldn't want to even consider asking such questions. Would "we"? Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 2:30:05 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Steve, Holly's comments about her former employer remind me of a rather ghastly story from World War I. That war, like any modern war, was made more horrible because technology had outpaced tactics. Such modern developments as poison gas, barbed wire entanglements and machine guns had changed the dynamics of warfare-- but the British officers were still fighting with the tactics of the last war, and so an entire generation of Britain's youth was lost. Thousands of young Tommies were sent charging into the barbed wire, where they were cut down like ripe wheat by the German machine guns. As the survivors stumbled back to their trenches, they were followed by the screams of their wounded comrades trapped on the wire. Afterward, as the exhausted soldiers stood their watches on the firing steps, they had to listen to the groans and pleadings from no- man's-land. To leave the trench and attempt a rescue was to risk being cut down by German bullets-- and probably against orders anyway. And constant fear has a brutalizing effect. The worn-out soldiers, traumatized and clinging to the relative safety of their filthy trenches, listening to those agonized pleadings, began to yell a selfish, heartless reply: "I'm all right, Jack!" That became a catchphrase defining the horror of war in the trenches. "I'm all right, Jack!" Ghastly, of course. We'd never be guilty of that sort of selfish brutality in peacetime--of course not. And yet... After the war ended, as thousands of veterans came back to Britain and all tried to find work at once, they had a hard time finding any work at all. Pensions for the wounded were tiny, and other assistance was minimal. Young men who had fought and bled for their country were reduced to begging for any chance at all, while those who were already comfortable and secure came up with a variation on the horrible wartime catchphrase: "I've got mine, Jack!" When the Great Depression threw millions out of work worldwide, that smug, dismissive phrase became universal, even here in the USA: "I've got mine, Jack!" Amazing how durable that old phrase has become. Monumental corporate swindles destroy the life savings of the retired and elderly? "I've got mine, Jack!" Bankers operate a gigantic Ponzi scheme with worthless "derivatives," bringing the nation's economy to the brink of disaster-- and then, after being rescued by the taxpayers, reward themselves with obscene bonuses? "I've got mine, Jack!" Insurance companies abandon any pretense at a rational balance of profits versus payouts, and price working families out of the market? "I've got mine, Jack!" Uninsured medical emergencies bankrupt thousands of families, causing them to lose their homes and livelihoods? "I've got mine, Jack!" Prosperous companies methodically weed out loyal, longtime employees to replace them with desperate newcomers? "I've got mine, Jack!" Legislators, paid by their constituents, betray those constituents by obstructing, lying about and destroying any attempts to bring the American way of life back to any rational balance, as more and more of the nation's wealth pours into the coffers of a tiny minority, jobs and industries are shipped overseas, and labor laws,financial regulations and environmental protections are methodically gutted? "I've got mine, Jack!" Tell you what, Steve. When you can't answer a progressive's argument except with a snide crack or a feeble joke, just give the good old, time-tested response to "the other guy's" problems: "I've got mine, Jack!" Eventually, all of us will be "the other guy..." On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Steve wrote: > Bob posted this and I'm the trickster? > Your post covered a lot of stuff. Not much of it had anything to do > with the senators vote. > I thought there is 100 senators. How could one guy hold that up? > Holly I have had parents with Alzheimer's, I know those struggles. > But is your former employer a relative? Why make the struggle his > business? > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Browning > Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:49:28 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 18:54:33 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:54:33 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> Those things have 'touched' me. I have family members out of work. I have been at the end of unemployment and cobra. My income has been cut. I took my kid out of private school this year. I have health insurance outside of employment so that I don't have that issue again. But I don't blame my former boss, I don't look to government to fix it. They did a good job of creating it. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:38 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . You really have to find a way to get your posting below posted, Walt. Posted somewhere that vast numbers of people can read it. So beautifully and brilliantly put. Thank you. You know, those of "us" who are still gainfully employed and who have had the good fortune of not having "our" incomes decreased in this economy...those extremely lucky ones of "us"..."we" must feel pretty good about the way things are as long as "we" aren't related to or friends with those of "us" who "have lost ours". After all, those who still have their savings and good incomes are able to take advantage of great sales on merchandise in this economy. They can buy flat screen plasma TVs and iPods and cars at great prices. They can buy homes at hugely discounted prices. I can understand where, for some people, this economy could be the best thing ever. But, I think, the questions to be asked are: How long will it take before the same misfortunes that have touched my family will touch you and yours? --and-- How long would your savings last if you lost your job, you couldn't find another, and your unemployment and COBRA benefits ran out? But, then, most of "us" wouldn't want to even consider asking such questions. Would "we"? Holly mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 19:07:50 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:07:50 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> Message-ID: But Steven, doesn't it say below that you have "been at the end of unemployment and cobra"? Didn't "government" provide those benefits to you? Or, didn't they at least mandate that those benefits are offered to you? And weren't you lucky that you didn't have a heart attack or stroke while unemployed. But I'll bet you feel these types of things are within your control. If you had, it might have been hard to get another job, and it might have been even harder to purchase health insurance. How lucky for you that you are now employed. I hope your children will be so lucky someday - because it really is more about luck these days than intelligence, willingness to work hard or anything else for that matter. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steven" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:54 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > Those things have 'touched' me. I have family members out of work. I have > been at the end of unemployment and cobra. My income has been cut. > I took my kid out of private school this year. I have health insurance > outside of employment so that I don't have that issue again. But I don't > blame my former boss, I don't look to government to fix it. They did a > good > job of creating it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Holly T. > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:38 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > You really have to find a way to get your posting below posted, Walt. > Posted > somewhere that vast numbers of people can read it. So beautifully and > brilliantly put. Thank you. > > You know, those of "us" who are still gainfully employed and who have had > the good fortune of not having "our" incomes decreased in this > economy...those extremely lucky ones of "us"..."we" must feel pretty good > about the way things are as long as "we" aren't related to or friends with > those of "us" who "have lost ours". After all, those who still have their > savings and good incomes are able to take advantage of great sales on > merchandise in this economy. They can buy flat screen plasma TVs and iPods > and cars at great prices. They can buy homes at hugely discounted prices. > I > can understand where, for some people, this economy could be the best > thing > ever. > > But, I think, the questions to be asked are: > > How long will it take before the same misfortunes that have touched my > family will touch you and yours? > > --and-- > > How long would your savings last if you lost your job, you couldn't find > another, and your unemployment and COBRA benefits ran out? > > But, then, most of "us" wouldn't want to even consider asking such > questions. Would "we"? > > Holly > > mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 19:20:45 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:20:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> Message-ID: <000001caba80$83f2ad20$8bd80760$@net> The government didn't help when I had to sell my home at a loss. I did find work. Just as still today, there are people working as landscapers and janitors. Maybe it is below you, but it was work. Cobra benefits? What, I had health insurance as long as I could pay for it. Finding a private insurer was cheaper than the cobra. You have extra water stored for an emergency? Let this Great Inflation be the note to self to save money too. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:08 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . But Steven, doesn't it say below that you have "been at the end of unemployment and cobra"? Didn't "government" provide those benefits to you? Or, didn't they at least mandate that those benefits are offered to you? And weren't you lucky that you didn't have a heart attack or stroke while unemployed. But I'll bet you feel these types of things are within your control. If you had, it might have been hard to get another job, and it might have been even harder to purchase health insurance. How lucky for you that you are now employed. I hope your children will be so lucky someday - because it really is more about luck these days than intelligence, willingness to work hard or anything else for that matter. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steven" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:54 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . man/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 19:27:45 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:27:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> Message-ID: <363691.97522.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Have you been unemployed for 11 months after your employer dumped you due to no fault of your own after after your mom got Altheimer's and you had to take over her care, Steven? Has your 27-year old daughter been laid off without prospects for a job for the last six months, and have you had to give her thousands of dollars to cover her medical expenses...thousands of dollars that you had to provide while only getting unemployment benefits? Have you had to watch your savings dwindle, month after month, wondering if you'll one day lose the large amount of equity you have built in your house over the course of the past 30 years? Have you submitted over 200 job applications with no job to show for it during the worst economic recession since the Great Depression? I wish I could afford health insurance outside of employment like you seem to be able to do, Steven. No a chance of that. I wish I could tell you that one of my problems was that I had to take my kid out of private school this year. No a chance of that either. I understand that these things have impacted you and that you have suffered, Steven. But, I believe that I am perfectly justified to blame my ex-employer for being so greedy and heartless. During the time I worked for him, I literally worked hundreds of hours of overtime that I never got paid for because I was a salaried employee. For two years, I trained someone who had no experience to help out in my department, and who was on loan to me from another department to take on a pretty technical job. Eventually, she came to work for me, but my employer still refused to pay her what she had become worth under my tutelage. She was highly underpaid for what I trained her to do. She ended up replacing me because I guess I trained her a bit too well. And why was I laid off? Because she was paid far less than I. That decision was motivated by just plain greed and I think I have a right to blame my past employer for being a heartless mercenary. The man is worth approximately 8 million right now. He could easily have afforded to keep me, especially considering that I built my department from nothing--a department that literally allowed the man's company to stay in business because my department ensured the company's compliance with government regulations. There's a big difference between being a "good businessman" and a "greedy businessman". My ex-employer definitely falls into the latter category. I believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with businessmen who do not strive for a healthy balance between loyalty and generosity toward their employees and the profit motive. Do I expect our government to fix this Judas of an economy? You're damned right I do. The Bush government got us into this mess. Why shouldn't our current government make every attempt possible to fix things? Holly ________________________________ From: Steven To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 6:54:33 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Those things have 'touched' me. I have family members out of work. I have been at the end of unemployment and cobra. My income has been cut. I took my kid out of private school this year. I have health insurance outside of employment so that I don't have that issue again. But I don't blame my former boss, I don't look to government to fix it. They did a good job of creating it. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:38 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . You really have to find a way to get your posting below posted, Walt. Posted somewhere that vast numbers of people can read it. So beautifully and brilliantly put. Thank you. You know, those of "us" who are still gainfully employed and who have had the good fortune of not having "our" incomes decreased in this economy...those extremely lucky ones of "us"..."we" must feel pretty good about the way things are as long as "we" aren't related to or friends with those of "us" who "have lost ours". After all, those who still have their savings and good incomes are able to take advantage of great sales on merchandise in this economy. They can buy flat screen plasma TVs and iPods and cars at great prices. They can buy homes at hugely discounted prices. I can understand where, for some people, this economy could be the best thing ever. But, I think, the questions to be asked are: How long will it take before the same misfortunes that have touched my family will touch you and yours? --and-- How long would your savings last if you lost your job, you couldn't find another, and your unemployment and COBRA benefits ran out? But, then, most of "us" wouldn't want to even consider asking such questions. Would "we"? Holly mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 19:47:12 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:47:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Message-ID: <493309.35288.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Looks like Bunning's stalemate has finally ended: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35675122/ns/politics-capitol_hill/?gt1=43001 Oh happy day! Pretty telling what Washington Sen. Patty Murray said below, huh? Holly "Today we have a clear cut example to show the American people just what's wrong with Washington, D.C.," Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., said. "That is because today one single Republican senator is standing in the way of the unemployment benefits of 400,000 Americans." From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 2 19:52:18 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:52:18 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Message-ID: <543296684-1267588338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1126498510-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Have you supported your spouse by cleaning stables after your 18 months of unemployment expires? Have you had them leave you when they found employment? Have you had all your possessions on an old motorcycle and drive by the bank to see the ex withdrawing all your savings? Have you had no place to live for months? Have you ever slept in the park? Have you had your parents not help you financially. Did you have to fly cross country days after 9/11 to transport your parent with dementia? Did you have to file for guardianship only to have them fight it in court. Did you pay out of pocket for their care for five years? Did you ever try to work two jobs while taking care of pa parent with cancer at home. Did you ever have an audit? Did you ever have a government official that you we're guilty and had to prove your innocence. Did you ever have said government give a Trillion Dollars to banks and insurance firms. From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 20:46:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:46:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] another chicken little thing about falling objects and the like. In-Reply-To: <1477-4B8D8E77-1967@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <1477-4B8D8E77-1967@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4EE8CC56-DAE7-420D-9AC2-3790CF6C2515@verizon.net> The general articles about the Oregon fault say that the earthquakes come every 300-600 years, and they are big quakes (8-9+). Since the last quake was 1700, that puts us into the "zone". One source says that we have 10-14% of the quake hitting in the next 50 years. I presume it goes up every year, because the stress that causes the earthquake goes increases every year. One thing about living in this part of Oregon, is that we mostly live in wood frame structures rather than masonry or concrete structures. The wood flexes more and doesn't fall down as often as the more rigid structures. They do fall off of their foundations, so we would all benefit from attaching our houses to our foundations with proper earthquake attachments. There are lots of small things that can be done to improve our ability to withstand the quake, should it hit. And I expect that most of us ( me included ) haven't done what can be done. I understand that attaching water heaters to the walls, having tools to shut off gas supplies, attaching tall furniture to the walls, putting latches on cabinets, and other steps would be worthwhile. Someone had posted a better list some time back, and this is from my memory of that list. I think of it, but really haven't done them yet. Why? My Round TUIT is missing. David On Mar 2, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Pacific Northwest at risk for mega earthquake - MSNBC Articles > > either I missed the date this is supposed to happen, or they did not put > it in at all. > > ~A~;?) (pain in the neck)Hoss > > http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=35674095&pg1=1 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 2 20:47:41 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:47:41 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <363691.97522.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4B8D53A7.2000107@jurislex.com> <919374.92916.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000601caba39$0215dd50$064197f0$@net><192360.31051.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4B8D6BC8.20003@jurislex.com> <1591736422-1267560921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-737170520-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <134307.71619.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caba7c$db0995f0$911cc1d0$@net> <363691.97522.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5AE26DDF-7E23-41F4-AD7F-FE61ACDD3FA6@teleport.com> You go, gal! Yeah! Well said! On Mar 2, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Have you been unemployed for 11 months after your employer dumped > you due to no fault of your own after after your mom got > Altheimer's and you had to take over her care, Steven? Has your 27- > year old daughter been laid off without prospects for a job for the > last six months, and have you had to give her thousands of dollars > to cover her medical expenses...thousands of dollars that you had > to provide while only getting unemployment benefits? Have you had > to watch your savings dwindle, month after month, wondering if > you'll one day lose the large amount of equity you have built in > your house over the course of the past 30 years? Have you submitted > over 200 job applications with no job to show for it during the > worst economic recession since the Great Depression? > > I wish I could afford health insurance outside of employment like > you seem to be able to do, Steven. No a chance of that. > > I wish I could tell you that one of my problems was that I had to > take my kid out of private school this year. No a chance of that > either. > > I understand that these things have impacted you and that you have > suffered, Steven. But, I believe that I am perfectly justified to > blame my ex-employer for being so greedy and heartless. During the > time I worked for him, I literally worked hundreds of hours of > overtime that I never got paid for because I was a salaried > employee. For two years, I trained someone who had no experience to > help out in my department, and who was on loan to me from another > department to take on a pretty technical job. Eventually, she came > to work for me, but my employer still refused to pay her what she > had become worth under my tutelage. She was highly underpaid for > what I trained her to do. She ended up replacing me because I guess > I trained her a bit too well. And why was I laid off? Because she > was paid far less than I. That decision was motivated by just plain > greed and I think I have a right to blame my past employer for > being a heartless mercenary. The man is worth > approximately 8 million right now. He could easily have afforded > to keep me, especially considering that I built my department from > nothing--a department that literally allowed the man's company to > stay in business because my department ensured the company's > compliance with government regulations. > > There's a big difference between being a "good businessman" and a > "greedy businessman". My ex-employer definitely falls into the > latter category. I believe that there is something fundamentally > wrong with businessmen who do not strive for a healthy balance > between loyalty and generosity toward their employees and the > profit motive. > > Do I expect our government to fix this Judas of an economy? You're > damned right I do. The Bush government got us into this mess. Why > shouldn't our current government make every attempt possible to fix > things? > > Holly > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Steven > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 6:54:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > Those things have 'touched' me. I have family members out of work. > I have > been at the end of unemployment and cobra. My income has been cut. > I took my kid out of private school this year. I have health insurance > outside of employment so that I don't have that issue again. But I > don't > blame my former boss, I don't look to government to fix it. They > did a good > job of creating it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Holly T. > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:38 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . > > You really have to find a way to get your posting below posted, > Walt. Posted > somewhere that vast numbers of people can read it. So beautifully and > brilliantly put. Thank you. > > You know, those of "us" who are still gainfully employed and who > have had > the good fortune of not having "our" incomes decreased in this > economy...those extremely lucky ones of "us"..."we" must feel > pretty good > about the way things are as long as "we" aren't related to or > friends with > those of "us" who "have lost ours". After all, those who still have > their > savings and good incomes are able to take advantage of great sales on > merchandise in this economy. They can buy flat screen plasma TVs > and iPods > and cars at great prices. They can buy homes at hugely discounted > prices. I > can understand where, for some people, this economy could be the > best thing > ever. > > But, I think, the questions to be asked are: > > How long will it take before the same misfortunes that have touched my > family will touch you and yours? > > --and-- > > How long would your savings last if you lost your job, you couldn't > find > another, and your unemployment and COBRA benefits ran out? > > But, then, most of "us" wouldn't want to even consider asking such > questions. Would "we"? > > Holly > > mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 21:38:37 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 21:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . In-Reply-To: <543296684-1267588338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1126498510-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <543296684-1267588338-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1126498510-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <527682.52531.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Okay, Steven. You've suffered. I'll give you that. But, not everyone is as strong or as able as you seem to be. What about those who are not? Should they just be left to sleep (and die) in parks once they lose their homes because our government chooses not to help them? Should we just say, as Bunning did, that if we extend unemployment benefits to them, they will not look for work? Isn't that kind of an easy way out? Isn't that like washing our hands of the problem? Isn't that like saying, "I've got mine!" as Walt said? Holly ________________________________ From: Steve To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 7:52:18 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Republicans, the party which cares . . . . Have you supported your spouse by cleaning stables after your 18 months of unemployment expires? Have you had them leave you when they found employment? Have you had all your possessions on an old motorcycle and drive by the bank to see the ex withdrawing all your savings? Have you had no place to live for months? Have you ever slept in the park? Have you had your parents not help you financially. Did you have to fly cross country days after 9/11 to transport your parent with dementia? Did you have to file for guardianship only to have them fight it in court. Did you pay out of pocket for their care for five years? Did you ever try to work two jobs while taking care of pa parent with cancer at home. Did you ever have an audit? Did you ever have a government official that you we're guilty and had to prove your innocence. Did you ever have said government give a Trillion Dollars to banks and insurance firms. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 21:43:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 21:43:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] The army and Global Warming Message-ID: The U.S. Army believes in the fact of global warming, and it is preparing for the consequences. http://www.aepi.army.mil/foresight/jul07-ccas.pdf The Army Corps of Engineers too. http://usace.armylive.dodlive.mil/2010/01/06/climate-change-and-usace/ From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 22:22:55 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 22:22:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] The army and Global Warming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BC1D5A6-3E87-4696-A3D3-E0C83463A4E9@verizon.net> Here is a good relatively simple explanation of some of the issues from National Geographic. Especially if you are going to try to explain it to kids, the concepts are simple and they don't go into a lot of politics about it. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/big-idea/05/carbon-bath Thanks for the links to the DOD and Army. They are concerned about resource wars as they should be. The scary thing is that even if climate change is not man made (I believe it is but for the sake of argument let's pretend it isn't) it doesn't really matter what we think. If bad things start to happen around the globe and the rest of the globe believes it is man made then excessive consumption becomes a faux pas. Then it won't take much to reach a tipping point where the rest of the world gets to decide if they are with us or against us, and it turns out they could be against us. We don't have an Army or a budget big enough for that. Our reputation in the world will have a big impact then. So even if we believe climate change is a hoax (for the sake of argument) what the rest of the world believes is important too. And if they see the impact first (ski resorts in Switzerland lose revenue, floods in France, crop failures in Poland, etc) it may be just as important that we at least don't repeat Bush's disdain for the whole idea. Katie On Mar 2, 2010, at 9:43 PM, David Morelli wrote: > The U.S. Army believes in the fact of global warming, and it is > preparing for the consequences. > > http://www.aepi.army.mil/foresight/jul07-ccas.pdf > > The Army Corps of Engineers too. > > http://usace.armylive.dodlive.mil/2010/01/06/climate-change-and-usace/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 2 23:42:53 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:42:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] another chicken little thing about falling objects and the like. In-Reply-To: <4EE8CC56-DAE7-420D-9AC2-3790CF6C2515@verizon.net> References: <1477-4B8D8E77-1967@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4EE8CC56-DAE7-420D-9AC2-3790CF6C2515@verizon.net> Message-ID: <007e01cabaa5$248d4a50$6da7def0$@com> > From: David Morelli > > [...] Someone had posted a better list some time back, and > this is from my memory of that list. Some quick googling turned this up: http://www.iprepare.com/earprepchec.html Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 3 08:13:02 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:13:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: Jeff Howden 's message of Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:42:53 -0800 Message-ID: <25500-4B8E8A8E-265@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> jeff..... This site too, does not give a date this event is supposed to happen. You would think there would of been a date especially since it was mentioned that both Vancouver and Portland would face vast floodings, ~A~;?) From rab at jurislex.com Wed Mar 3 10:06:20 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:06:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100303/81b899fd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100303/81b899fd/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100303/81b899fd/attachment.png From edavie at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 10:13:36 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:13:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?_Re=3A_another_chicken_little_thing_abo?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ut_falling_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <25500-4B8E8A8E-265@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25500-4B8E8A8E-265@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <476699CA9B4F4D8EBEC228AD4995102B@EdDaviePC> Alan, how can they give a date when they don't know when? It's just that it is way past due! Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan AKA Hoss" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:13 AM To: ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet]another chicken little thing about falling objects and the like. > jeff..... > This site too, does not give a date this event is supposed to happen. > You would think there would of been a date especially since it was > mentioned that both Vancouver and Portland would face vast floodings, > > ~A~;<) > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 10:27:50 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:27:50 EST Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust Message-ID: <1f79b.6c107b0a.38c00426@aol.com> Another Democrat 'retires' _http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means-co/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http%3A%2F%2F www.politicsdaily.com%2F2010%2F03%2F03%2Fcharlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means-co%2F_ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means-co/?icid=main|htmlw s-main-n|dl1|link6|http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to -take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means-co/) (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means -co/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/ charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means-co/) From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 10:35:26 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:35:26 EST Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust Message-ID: <200c8.68b9732b.38c005ee@aol.com> Hopefully I get the formating of the link better with this post GNet does not like the HTML formatted links http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abse nce-from-ways-and-means-co/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6 The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 1:28:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Another Democrat 'retires' _http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means-co/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http%3A%2F%2F www.politicsdaily.com%2F2010%2F03%2F03%2Fcharlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means-co%2F_ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means-co/?icid=main|htmlw s-main-n|dl1|link6|http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to -take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means-co/) (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-abs ence-from-ways-and-means -co/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link6|http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/ 03/ charlie-rangel-to-take-leave-of-absence-from-ways-and-means-co/) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 3 11:02:21 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:02:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mr Ed said.. Alan, how can they give a date when they don't know when? It's just that it is way past due! Ed - Okay Ed... but who ays it's past due, and isn't a just a guess anyway? Just because some quakes have already happened, does not mean that it is proof positive that it's going to happen again. ~A~:?) From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 3 11:09:22 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:09:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle advice for hump day Message-ID: <17815-4B8EB3E2-5847@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Advice From A Farmer on a hump day in March. -------------- next part -------------- http://www.mamarocks.com/advice_from_a_farmer.htm From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 3 11:23:36 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:23:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: "Ed Davie" 's message of Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:13:36 -0800 <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <006901cabb07$09459240$1bd0b6c0$@com> > From: Alan AKA Hoss > > Okay Ed... but who ays it's past due, and isn't a just > a guess anyway? Things in nature tend to follow a pattern. Through geological study, a pattern has emerged of 300-700 years between *big* quakes in this region. So, yes, it's a guess and yes, we may not see one too terribly soon. However, we *are* within that 300-700 window. > Just because some quakes have already happened, does not > mean that it is proof positive that it's going to happen > again. Indeed, yet the pattern is still there and that increases the likelihood that it'll happen again. It still pays to be prepared. Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 3 11:37:14 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:37:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: Jeff Howden 's message of Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:23:36 -0800 Message-ID: <17814-4B8EBA6A-7304@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Are we prepared for California ceding from the Union during the next big quake. My home town of Morro Bay has been waiting for this to happen for as long as I can remember. From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Mar 3 11:41:24 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:41:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17814-4B8EBA6A-7304@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: Jeff Howden 's message of Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:23:36 -0800 <17814-4B8EBA6A-7304@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D52296B2@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> The San Andreas fault has been there for eons, moving along incrementally, with the occasional destruction as seen in 1906. Eventually, in about 65 million years, the parts of California to the west of the fault line will be in the vicinity of Anchorage, Alaska. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Alan AKA Hoss Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:37 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] another chicken little thing about falling objects and?????the like. Are we prepared for California ceding from the Union during the next big quake. My home town of Morro Bay has been waiting for this to happen for as long as I can remember. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 3 11:50:20 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:50:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1749840925.10232711267645820261.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to say different. Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. Curious in the very least. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:06:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's opponents ? ! ? !

In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam.

I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!!

bob "what??" browning
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist

By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press Writer

Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET

NEW YORK – Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public support for the war.

The former White House political adviser blames himself for not pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of such weapons.

In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible.

In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion.

"Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous dictators," Rove wrote.

Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents.

Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush came under withering criticism for the federal government's response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael Brown — "Heck of a job, Brownie" — was fodder for those who said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence.

In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats.

He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the facts.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its March 9 release.


From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 11:54:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:54:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one for him. WW On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was > right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against > Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! > > In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history > will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's > argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so > thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or > just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. > > I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! > > bob "what??" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist > > By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press > Writer > > Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET > > NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir > that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly > damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling > public support for the war. > The former White House political adviser blames himself for not > pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken > the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the > worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, > he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the > existence of such weapons. > > In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look > favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision > to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential > act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. > 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin > Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. > > In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, > including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to > the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. > > "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was > determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons > from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous > dictators," Rove wrote. > > Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct > in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls > Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and > significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his > presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. > > Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which > devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush > came under withering criticism for the federal government's > response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator > Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who > said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. > > In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching > recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans > Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. > > He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a > stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the > facts. > > The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its > March 9 release. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 12:02:18 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:02:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: The thing is, each quake leaves a "signature" in the form of ancient flood marks, debris, etc. And by reading those ancient records, geologists determined the major quakes seem to occur at intervals of between 300-700 years. And the last one was in 1700. And the great subduction zone continues to move and build up pressure at the same rate as always. Barring the technical ability to go down there and install huge titanium roller bearings in the fault line, seems we may as well quake-proof our buildings and do whatever else we can, if we want to enjoy a little peace of mind on this restless planet. On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Mr Ed said.. > Alan, how can they give a date when they don't know when? It's just > that > it is way past due! > Ed > - > Okay Ed... but who ays it's past due, and isn't a just a guess anyway? > Just because some quakes have already happened, does not mean that > it is > proof positive that it's going to happen again. > > ~A~:?) > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 12:05:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:05:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17814-4B8EBA6A-7304@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <17814-4B8EBA6A-7304@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <71A7FCDE-D162-4153-9E3B-49B2AB863AA5@teleport.com> Well, Southern California might physically "secede" from teh union, given enough movement in the fault line... would be lots of valuable new seafront property in the Mojave Desert, just as proposed in the old "Superman" movie... On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Are we prepared for California ceding from the Union during the next > big quake. My home town of Morro Bay has been waiting for this to > happen for as long as I can remember. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 3 12:08:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:54:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one for him. WW On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was > right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against > Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! > > In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history > will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's > argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so > thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or > just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. > > I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! > > bob "what??" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist > > By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press > Writer > > Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET > > NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir > that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly > damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling > public support for the war. > The former White House political adviser blames himself for not > pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken > the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the > worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, > he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the > existence of such weapons. > > In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look > favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision > to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential > act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. > 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin > Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. > > In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, > including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to > the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. > > "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was > determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons > from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous > dictators," Rove wrote. > > Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct > in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls > Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and > significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his > presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. > > Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which > devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush > came under withering criticism for the federal government's > response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator > Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who > said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. > > In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching > recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans > Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. > > He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a > stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the > facts. > > The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its > March 9 release. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 3 12:20:04 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:20:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust In-Reply-To: <1f79b.6c107b0a.38c00426@aol.com> References: <1f79b.6c107b0a.38c00426@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a001cabb0e$eb77be70$c2673b50$@com> Leave of absence != retirement He's simply choosing to step out of the spotlight and position of power while the ethics investigation goes on. It's a completely reasonable (and admirable) position to take. Sure, he's got dirt on his hands like every other politician, but in his career he's done loads of good things too. It will be interesting to see how the investigation shakes out. Will you post an email linking to a favorable article should he be cleared and return to his previous post? Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 12:36:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:36:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Sorry, I don't think Obama has any spare time for writing right now. On Mar 3, 2010, at 12:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:54:04 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent > paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one > for him. > WW > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was >> right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against >> Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! >> >> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's >> argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so >> thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or >> just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >> >> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >> >> bob "what??" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> >> >> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >> >> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >> Writer >> >> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >> >> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir >> that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly >> damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling >> public support for the war. >> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the >> worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, >> he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the >> existence of such weapons. >> >> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision >> to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential >> act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. >> 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin >> Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >> >> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to >> the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >> >> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous >> dictators," Rove wrote. >> >> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct >> in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls >> Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and >> significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his >> presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >> >> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >> came under withering criticism for the federal government's >> response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator >> Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who >> said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >> >> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >> >> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >> facts. >> >> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >> March 9 release. >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 3 13:01:59 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:01:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00b201cabb14$c644d420$52ce7c60$@com> > From: donkelly > > Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. To which venture are you referring -- books or speeches (or both)? Obama wrote his own books or at least that's his position. Some posit that Ayers had a hand in the some of the writing of "Dreams From My Father", but not "Audacity of Hope" Who Wrote Dreams From My Father? By Jack Cashill http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html Jack Cashill, being an author himself, has much to gain from his investigative work, however, so his opinion in the matter is not unbiased and he has much to lose for being wrong. Just to be clear though, having a ghost writer is completely commonplace for non-writers when tasked with writing a book. Writing isn't their forte so a pro is called in to help with structure, voice, transition, flow, etc. Though he's very capable, he doesn't claim to write his own speeches. He chooses, instead, to rely on the very capable work of Jon Favreau. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Favreau_%28speechwriter%29 Jeff From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 13:21:57 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:21:57 EST Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust Message-ID: <2c9f0.1cb06f9b.38c02cf5@aol.com> All you need do is return to the same web site - they only report 'favorable' articles for liberals. favorable: meaning - praise or non-judgmental articles if writing about any liberal supporter. The site will misconstrue and report with extreme bias - in any way possible - any that oppose the liberal movement. It is a pro-liberal (Marxist) site. I read it - only to get an insight as to what hard core liberals are thinking. They claim to be non-partisan - but that is only in words. Their writers are far from non-partisan in what they write. If he is found guilty they will likely come out with an article claiming he was wrongly accused or something was wrong with the prosecution or some other drivel. They may even ignore the announcement if he is completely guilty and they decide he isn't worth trying to salvage. As far as 'loads of good' - that is only a matter of opinion. What you call 'good' I am sure many others would call it something else much less flattering. Shall we count the Dems that have bailed out of office in recent months that want to distance themselves from what this administration is doing or distancing themselves from what they know is going to occur in the next few years. I have not kept count of the number of politicians that have given up on their elected position in recent months - nor their party affiliation - but many more of them seem to be from the Dem camp. [Am sure that someone will provide 'good' 'excuses' as to why Dems are getting out now while at the same time will call the GOP quitters or imply other derogatory remarks.] The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 3:20:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, admin at jeffhowden.com writes: Leave of absence != retirement He's simply choosing to step out of the spotlight and position of power while the ethics investigation goes on. It's a completely reasonable (and admirable) position to take. Sure, he's got dirt on his hands like every other politician, but in his career he's done loads of good things too. It will be interesting to see how the investigation shakes out. Will you post an email linking to a favorable article should he be cleared and return to his previous post? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:01:01 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:01:01 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> I didn't serve in Iraq, but I have talked to solders who were there. Two of them once told me that the WMD's were there but since the US military took it's time, everything was packed up and taken to Syria. I can't confirm or deny if this is true, but they told me that they were there before the US arrived. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, > but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's > opponents ? ! ? ! > > In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history > will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument > that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly > demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain > bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. > > I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! > > bob "what??" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Yahoo! News > > > > > Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist > > By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press > Writer > > Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET > > NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that > the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly damaged > the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public > support for the war. > > The former White House political adviser blames himself for not > pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken > the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the worst > mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, > did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of > such weapons. > > In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look > favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision to > invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential act of > the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, 2001, > terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not Iraqi > leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. > > In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, > including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to the > attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. > > "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was > determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons > from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous dictators," > Rove wrote. > > Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct in > office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's > achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" and > says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were > falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. > > Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which > devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush > came under withering criticism for the federal government's response > to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael > Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who said it > revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. > > In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching > recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans > Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. > > He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a > stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the facts. > > The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its > March 9 release. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 3 14:02:01 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:02:01 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust In-Reply-To: <2c9f0.1cb06f9b.38c02cf5@aol.com> References: <2c9f0.1cb06f9b.38c02cf5@aol.com> Message-ID: <00be01cabb1d$2927a470$7b76ed50$@com> You completely missed my point and then used that as a segue to your own anti-liberal, anti/dem, agenda fueled by the use of emotionally charged labels and adjectives, but ok. From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 14:09:22 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:09:22 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <30450.26fa3c6c.38c03812@aol.com> I also heard the same thing - but from a person that was returning to Iraq as an interpreter. He (an Iraqi) had been briefed on many details of what was going on there. He told me the WMDs were trucked to Syria before the US invaded. The Iraqi knew that the US going to attack; thus, shipped what they wanted saved out of the country. The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 5:01:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: I didn't serve in Iraq, but I have talked to solders who were there. Two of them once told me that the WMD's were there but since the US military took it's time, everything was packed up and taken to Syria. I can't confirm or deny if this is true, but they told me that they were there before the US arrived. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, > but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's > opponents ? ! ? ! > > In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history > will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument > that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly > demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain > bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. > > I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! > > bob "what??" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Yahoo! News > > > > > Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist > > By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press > Writer > > Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET > > NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that > the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly damaged > the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public > support for the war. > > The former White House political adviser blames himself for not > pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken > the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the worst > mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, > did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of > such weapons. > > In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look > favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision to > invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential act of > the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, 2001, > terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not Iraqi > leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. > > In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, > including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to the > attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. > > "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was > determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons > from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous dictators," > Rove wrote. > > Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct in > office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's > achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" and > says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were > falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. > > Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which > devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush > came under withering criticism for the federal government's response > to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael > Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who said it > revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. > > In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching > recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans > Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. > > He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a > stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the facts. > > The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its > March 9 release. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 14:32:45 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:32:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle advice for hump day In-Reply-To: <17815-4B8EB3E2-5847@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <17815-4B8EB3E2-5847@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <2CE3F12C-1BB2-489B-9E95-D40643F7F1B2@verizon.net> Thanks Hoss. I know that trying to boss around someone else's dog doesn't work, so that is one lesson already learned. Katie On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Advice From A Farmer on a hump day in March. > > http://www.mamarocks.com/advice_from_a_farmer.htm > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:32:08 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:32:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust In-Reply-To: <00a001cabb0e$eb77be70$c2673b50$@com> References: <1f79b.6c107b0a.38c00426@aol.com> <00a001cabb0e$eb77be70$c2673b50$@com> Message-ID: <4B8EE368.9000704@gmail.com> Unless I read the article wrong, Congressman Rangel has not left Congress just stepped down from being committee chair. Politically it's a smart move. The primary in New York is in September. I went to school for awhile in his district, he is very popular and will have that seat for life. By laying low for a few months, people will forget. Even if he has a challenger in the primary, he'll be able to beat them. If a Republican runs, don't think they'll win, Rangel is just that popular. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Leave of absence != retirement > > He's simply choosing to step out of the spotlight and position of power > while the ethics investigation goes on. It's a completely reasonable (and > admirable) position to take. Sure, he's got dirt on his hands like every > other politician, but in his career he's done loads of good things too. It > will be interesting to see how the investigation shakes out. > > Will you post an email linking to a favorable article should he be cleared > and return to his previous post? > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 14:46:43 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:46:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it is true that there were WMD in Iraq that went to Syria it raises more questions about Bush's competence than Bush merely being wrong in the beginning about the existence of WMD. If WMD were trucked to Syria then why did Bush stop at the border? Are you saying that Bush then was happy to have the WMD is such a volatile place? Was Bush just happy to avenge his dad and let WMD go willy nilly because he didn't think WMD really mattered? If they were in Iraq and then they were in Syria, why would Bush just let it drop? In his short sightedness he just wanted to pass it along to somebody else because he cared only about Iraq? (Remember he dropped Afghanistan like a hot potato for years.) The maps that Cheney drew up before 9/11 dividing all the oil fields in Iraq didn't cross over into Syria? Did Cheney also not give a rip about WMD? Perhaps Rumsfeld will tell us that the WMD are in and around Damascus, somewhere north, east, south or west of there, and that he knows where they are. Katie On Mar 3, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I didn't serve in Iraq, but I have talked to solders who were > there. Two > of them once told me that the WMD's were there but since the US > military > took it's time, everything was packed up and taken to Syria. I can't > confirm or deny if this is true, but they told me that they were there > before the US arrived. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, >> but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's >> opponents ? ! ? ! >> >> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument >> that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly >> demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain >> bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >> >> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >> >> bob "what??" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Yahoo! News >> > news.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AtvbT_s6DL6.28Ph.XUVNhpH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaHZham >> 9hBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bi1wcnZkbGluawRzbGsDeWFob29uZXdz> >> >> >> >> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >> >> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >> Writer >> >> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >> >> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that >> the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly damaged >> the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public >> support for the war. >> >> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the worst >> mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, >> did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of >> such weapons. >> >> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision to >> invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential act of >> the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, 2001, >> terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not >> Iraqi >> leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >> >> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to the >> attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >> >> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous dictators," >> Rove wrote. >> >> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose >> conduct in >> office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's >> achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" and >> says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were >> falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >> >> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >> came under withering criticism for the federal government's response >> to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael >> Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who said it >> revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >> >> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >> >> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >> facts. >> >> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >> March 9 release. >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:56:27 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 14:56:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8EE91B.80901@gmail.com> Not that I supported the United States invading Iraq, but also invading Syria, without congress declaring war, would be just as unconstitutional. If I had to guess, it was hard enough to come up with an excuse to invade Iraq, even harder to find a reason to invade Syria. Most middle east nations don't want to get on America's bad side, but eventually everyone has it's breaking point. Invading Syria might have been that breaking point. Adam Katie Allnutt wrote: > If it is true that there were WMD in Iraq that went to Syria it > raises more questions about Bush's competence than Bush merely being > wrong in the beginning about the existence of WMD. > If WMD were trucked to Syria then why did Bush stop at the border? > Are you saying that Bush then was happy to have the WMD is such a > volatile place? > Was Bush just happy to avenge his dad and let WMD go willy nilly > because he didn't think WMD really mattered? > > If they were in Iraq and then they were in Syria, why would Bush just > let it drop? > In his short sightedness he just wanted to pass it along to somebody > else because he cared only about Iraq? (Remember he dropped > Afghanistan like a hot potato for years.) > The maps that Cheney drew up before 9/11 dividing all the oil fields > in Iraq didn't cross over into Syria? Did Cheney also not give a rip > about WMD? > > Perhaps Rumsfeld will tell us that the WMD are in and around > Damascus, somewhere north, east, south or west of there, and that he > knows where they are. > > Katie > > > > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> I didn't serve in Iraq, but I have talked to solders who were >> there. Two >> of them once told me that the WMD's were there but since the US >> military >> took it's time, everything was packed up and taken to Syria. I can't >> confirm or deny if this is true, but they told me that they were there >> before the US arrived. >> >> Adam >> >> Bob Browning wrote: >> >>> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, >>> but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's >>> opponents ? ! ? ! >>> >>> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >>> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument >>> that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly >>> demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain >>> bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >>> >>> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >>> >>> bob "what??" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> Yahoo! News >>> >> news.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AtvbT_s6DL6.28Ph.XUVNhpH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaHZham >>> 9hBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bi1wcnZkbGluawRzbGsDeWFob29uZXdz> >>> >>> >>> >>> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >>> >>> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >>> Writer >>> >>> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >>> >>> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that >>> the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly damaged >>> the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public >>> support for the war. >>> >>> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >>> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >>> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the worst >>> mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, >>> did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of >>> such weapons. >>> >>> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >>> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision to >>> invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential act of >>> the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, 2001, >>> terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not >>> Iraqi >>> leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >>> >>> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >>> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to the >>> attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >>> >>> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >>> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >>> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous dictators," >>> Rove wrote. >>> >>> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose >>> conduct in >>> office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's >>> achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" and >>> says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were >>> falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >>> >>> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >>> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >>> came under withering criticism for the federal government's response >>> to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael >>> Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who said it >>> revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >>> >>> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >>> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >>> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >>> >>> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >>> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >>> facts. >>> >>> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >>> March 9 release. >>> >>> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 3 15:02:02 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:02:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ca01cabb25$8c4533d0$a4cf9b70$@com> Adam, That theory certainly seems plausible. http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being back in Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 15:07:49 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 15:07:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <00ca01cabb25$8c4533d0$a4cf9b70$@com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> <00ca01cabb25$8c4533d0$a4cf9b70$@com> Message-ID: <4B8EEBC5.3040009@gmail.com> Jeff, Never said that they were. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > That theory certainly seems plausible. > > http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml > > It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being back in > Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From chuck at grovenet.net Wed Mar 3 15:12:04 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 15:12:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8EECC4.3020906@grovenet.net> Katie Allnutt wrote: > If it is true that there were WMD in Iraq that went to Syria it > raises more questions about Bush's competence than Bush merely being > wrong in the beginning about the existence of WMD. > If WMD were trucked to Syria then why did Bush stop at the border? > Are you saying that Bush then was happy to have the WMD is such a > volatile place? > Was Bush just happy to avenge his dad and let WMD go willy nilly > because he didn't think WMD really mattered? > > If they were in Iraq and then they were in Syria, why would Bush just > let it drop? > In his short sightedness he just wanted to pass it along to somebody > else because he cared only about Iraq? (Remember he dropped > Afghanistan like a hot potato for years.) > The maps that Cheney drew up before 9/11 dividing all the oil fields > in Iraq didn't cross over into Syria? Did Cheney also not give a rip > about WMD? > > Perhaps Rumsfeld will tell us that the WMD are in and around > Damascus, somewhere north, east, south or west of there, and that he > knows where they are. > > Katie > It was never about WMDs. It always was, and always will be, about oil. Is it a coincidence that 7 out of 10 of the largest oilfields just happen to be in Iraq? http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/21/biggest-oil-fields-business-energy-oil-fields.html From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 17:00:29 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:00:29 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> Did you people even read the complete article (below)? My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few articles about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued development of nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the information is true -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that the liberal CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility then a significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily involved there is likely much more to the story than we know which also probably precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. With the liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that the WMDs never existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they could use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it probably seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major threat. They also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any of the other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the region they did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know exactly where it went. My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly if he was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full details (if elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he campaigned. You can bet that there is much more to the story than what has been 'leaked' to any of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and changed his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding credibility that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only or even the primary reason for our going after Saddam. China has been developing a highway toward that region because they also want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing many of the other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I believe we won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I also believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the countries in that area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We need the draft back to start preparing! Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in the M.E. would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a rapid rate. There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war in the M.E. as the need for oil will still exist. The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a predominately male population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best way to use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what does a country do when they have an excess of males available? If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government believe they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. They want the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy to google information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: Jeff, Never said that they were. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > That theory certainly seems plausible. > > http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml > > It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being back in > Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 17:36:55 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 17:36:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?_Re=3A_another_chicken_little_thing_abo?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ut_falling_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: In most cases apparently, it is proof enough. Ed > - > Just because some quakes have already happened, does not mean that it is > proof positive that it's going to happen again. > > ~A~:<) > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 18:07:23 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:07:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> References: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> Message-ID: <82E90360-B0FD-4127-AC4D-965FC170FDD4@verizon.net> On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ........ (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and changed > his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding > credibility > that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) > I have a good hunch that the 'lot' of stuff we don't know about is mostly the power and money tied up by defense contractors. War is profitable when congress won't put any limits on the amount we borrow from China to pay for it. Katie From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 18:31:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:31:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <30450.26fa3c6c.38c03812@aol.com> References: <30450.26fa3c6c.38c03812@aol.com> Message-ID: Possible-- I also read (on CNN) that entire factories were packed up and trucked out even AFTER the invasion-- because (no surprise) we simply didn't have enough troops to guard everything! For the same reason, Iraqi ammunition dumps were looted to create bombs to kill our troops, because we couldn't spare the men to guard them or blow them up. Chalk up another win for Bush Jr's prewar "planning..." On Mar 3, 2010, at 2:09 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > I also heard the same thing - but from a person that was returning to > Iraq as an interpreter. He (an Iraqi) had been briefed on many > details of > what was going on there. > > He told me the WMDs were trucked to Syria before the US invaded. > The > Iraqi knew that the US going to attack; thus, shipped what they > wanted saved > out of the country. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 5:01:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: > > I didn't serve in Iraq, but I have talked to solders who were > there. Two > of them once told me that the WMD's were there but since the US > military > took it's time, everything was packed up and taken to Syria. I can't > confirm or deny if this is true, but they told me that they were > there > before the US arrived. > > Adam > > Bob Browning wrote: >> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was right, >> but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against Dubya's >> opponents ? ! ? ! >> >> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's argument >> that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so thoroughly >> demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or just plain >> bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >> >> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >> >> bob "what??" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> Yahoo! News >> > news.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AtvbT_s6DL6.28Ph.XUVNhpH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaHZham9 > hBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bi1wcnZkbGluawRzbGsDeWFob29uZXdz> >> >> >> >> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >> >> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >> Writer >> >> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >> >> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir that >> the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly >> damaged >> the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling public >> support for the war. >> >> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the >> worst >> mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, he adds, >> did not knowingly mislead the American public about the existence of >> such weapons. >> >> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his >> decision to >> invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential >> act of >> the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. 11, >> 2001, >> terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden, not >> Iraqi >> leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >> >> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to >> the >> attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >> >> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous >> dictators," >> Rove wrote. >> >> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose >> conduct in >> office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls Bush's >> achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and significant" >> and >> says many of the controversies that weakened his presidency were >> falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >> >> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >> came under withering criticism for the federal government's response >> to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator Michael >> Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who said it >> revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >> >> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >> >> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with >> the facts. >> >> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >> March 9 release. >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 18:57:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:57:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> References: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C64B3AD-A7C9-4C40-A05C-CAB66C2567E3@teleport.com> The article would be a good deal more plausible if the negative label "liberal" weren't used so-- liberally... ;^) That being said, China certainly seems to have the inside track on Iragi oil-- that's one in the eye for the Bush/Cheney program. Fuel on the moon? First I'd heard of it. It would have to be some damn incredible fuel to warrant the cost of shipping it back to Earth. One might conceivably cover a large portion of some sunward crater with reflective material to power a giant photovoltaic system, convert the energy to microwaves and beam it to an Earth receiving station for reconversion to electricity-- but even that would be incredibly expensive, and if the sending antenna wandered off target on the earth-- whoops! It seems more likely to me that the first nation to establish a manned station on the moon might want to plant a huge, solar-powered laser battery there to threaten other nations' satellites (cf. China again) or moon-bound expeditions from other countries. A hostile moon base could be a very scary prospect for every other nation. Such a battery might be useful in detecting and deflecting Earth-threatening asteroids, but humanity just doesn't seem to think in those benevolent long-term ways yet. On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Did you people even read the complete article (below)? > > My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few > articles > about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued development of > nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the > information is true > -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that > the liberal > CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility > then a > significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily > involved > there is likely much more to the story than we know which also > probably > precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. > With the > liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that > the WMDs never > existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they > could > use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it > probably > seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major > threat. They > also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any > of the > other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the > region they > did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know > exactly where > it went. > > My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly > if he > was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full > details (if > elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he > campaigned. You can > bet that there is much more to the story than what has been > 'leaked' to any > of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and > changed > his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding > credibility > that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) > > Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only > or even > the primary reason for our going after Saddam. > > China has been developing a highway toward that region because they > also > want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing > many of the > other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I > believe we > won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I > also > believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the > countries in that > area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We > need the > draft back to start preparing! > > Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in > the M.E. > would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a rapid > rate. > > There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the > Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war > in the M.E. > as the need for oil will still exist. > > The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over > female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a > predominately male > population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best > way to > use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what > does a > country do when they have an excess of males available? > > If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government > believe > they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. > They want > the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy > to google > information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) > > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: > > Jeff, > > Never said that they were. > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >> Adam, >> >> That theory certainly seems plausible. >> >> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml >> >> It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being >> back > in >> Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 3 19:16:31 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:16:31 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try googling energy moon race be sure to use the following in search also moon "helium-3" US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to be there between 2020 and 2030 To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to force the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race I have known about the race for a number of years now... The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 9:58:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: The article would be a good deal more plausible if the negative label "liberal" weren't used so-- liberally... ;^) That being said, China certainly seems to have the inside track on Iragi oil-- that's one in the eye for the Bush/Cheney program. Fuel on the moon? First I'd heard of it. It would have to be some damn incredible fuel to warrant the cost of shipping it back to Earth. One might conceivably cover a large portion of some sunward crater with reflective material to power a giant photovoltaic system, convert the energy to microwaves and beam it to an Earth receiving station for reconversion to electricity-- but even that would be incredibly expensive, and if the sending antenna wandered off target on the earth-- whoops! It seems more likely to me that the first nation to establish a manned station on the moon might want to plant a huge, solar-powered laser battery there to threaten other nations' satellites (cf. China again) or moon-bound expeditions from other countries. A hostile moon base could be a very scary prospect for every other nation. Such a battery might be useful in detecting and deflecting Earth-threatening asteroids, but humanity just doesn't seem to think in those benevolent long-term ways yet. On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Did you people even read the complete article (below)? > > My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few > articles > about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued development of > nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the > information is true > -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that > the liberal > CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility > then a > significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily > involved > there is likely much more to the story than we know which also > probably > precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. > With the > liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that > the WMDs never > existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they > could > use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it > probably > seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major > threat. They > also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any > of the > other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the > region they > did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know > exactly where > it went. > > My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly > if he > was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full > details (if > elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he > campaigned. You can > bet that there is much more to the story than what has been > 'leaked' to any > of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and > changed > his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding > credibility > that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) > > Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only > or even > the primary reason for our going after Saddam. > > China has been developing a highway toward that region because they > also > want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing > many of the > other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I > believe we > won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I > also > believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the > countries in that > area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We > need the > draft back to start preparing! > > Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in > the M.E. > would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a rapid > rate. > > There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the > Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war > in the M.E. > as the need for oil will still exist. > > The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over > female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a > predominately male > population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best > way to > use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what > does a > country do when they have an excess of males available? > > If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government > believe > they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. > They want > the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy > to google > information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) > > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: > > Jeff, > > Never said that they were. > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >> Adam, >> >> That theory certainly seems plausible. >> >> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml >> >> It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being >> back > in >> Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 3 19:45:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:45:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> References: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> Message-ID: OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system which generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover one ton of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of lunar surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more massive and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it would be cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try > googling > > energy moon race > > be sure to use the following in search also > > moon "helium-3" > > > > US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining > This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon > > Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to > be there > between 2020 and 2030 > > To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to > force > the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. > > The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race > I have known about the race for a number of years now... > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 9:58:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > The article would be a good deal more plausible if the negative label > "liberal" weren't used so-- liberally... ;^) > > That being said, China certainly seems to have the inside track on > Iragi oil-- that's one in the eye for the Bush/Cheney program. > Fuel on the moon? First I'd heard of it. It would have to be some > damn incredible fuel to warrant the cost of shipping it back to > Earth. One might conceivably cover a large portion of some sunward > crater with reflective material to power a giant photovoltaic system, > convert the energy to microwaves and beam it to an Earth receiving > station for reconversion to electricity-- but even that would be > incredibly expensive, and if the sending antenna wandered off target > on the earth-- whoops! > It seems more likely to me that the first nation to establish a > manned station on the moon might want to plant a huge, solar-powered > laser battery there to threaten other nations' satellites (cf. China > again) or moon-bound expeditions from other countries. A hostile moon > base could be a very scary prospect for every other nation. Such a > battery might be useful in detecting and deflecting Earth-threatening > asteroids, but humanity just doesn't seem to think in those > benevolent long-term ways yet. > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Did you people even read the complete article (below)? >> >> My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few >> articles >> about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued >> development of >> nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the >> information is true >> -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that >> the liberal >> CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility >> then a >> significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily >> involved >> there is likely much more to the story than we know which also >> probably >> precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. >> With the >> liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that >> the WMDs never >> existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they >> could >> use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it >> probably >> seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major >> threat. They >> also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any >> of the >> other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the >> region they >> did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know >> exactly where >> it went. >> >> My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly >> if he >> was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full >> details (if >> elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he >> campaigned. You can >> bet that there is much more to the story than what has been >> 'leaked' to any >> of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and >> changed >> his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding >> credibility >> that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) >> >> Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only >> or even >> the primary reason for our going after Saddam. >> >> China has been developing a highway toward that region because they >> also >> want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing >> many of the >> other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I >> believe we >> won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I >> also >> believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the >> countries in that >> area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We >> need the >> draft back to start preparing! >> >> Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in >> the M.E. >> would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a >> rapid >> rate. >> >> There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - >> on the >> Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war >> in the M.E. >> as the need for oil will still exist. >> >> The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred >> over >> female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a >> predominately male >> population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best >> way to >> use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what >> does a >> country do when they have an excess of males available? >> >> If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government >> believe >> they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. >> They want >> the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy >> to google >> information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) >> >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: >> >> Jeff, >> >> Never said that they were. >> >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> Adam, >>> >>> That theory certainly seems plausible. >>> >>> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ >>> 2006/2/18/233023.shtml >>> >>> It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being >>> back >> in >>> Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 3 20:22:23 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:22:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> Message-ID: <365538.28863.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Now I have even greater reason to believe that the U.S. is way over its head in fighting a war in the Middle East. Let's see: You combine preposterously crazy technology with blatant arrogance and cultural ignorance and then you ship that out to a land where people have endless patience, incredible shrewdness, very little to lose, and a belief that martyrdom is their ticket to heaven. What do you think is gonna happen?! Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 7:45:04 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system which generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover one ton of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of lunar surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more massive and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it would be cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try > googling > > energy moon race > > be sure to use the following in search also > > moon "helium-3" > > > > US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining > This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon > > Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to > be there > between 2020 and 2030 > > To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to > force > the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. > > The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race > I have known about the race for a number of years now... > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 9:58:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > The article would be a good deal more plausible if the negative label > "liberal" weren't used so-- liberally... ;^) > > That being said, China certainly seems to have the inside track on > Iragi oil-- that's one in the eye for the Bush/Cheney program. > Fuel on the moon? First I'd heard of it. It would have to be some > damn incredible fuel to warrant the cost of shipping it back to > Earth. One might conceivably cover a large portion of some sunward > crater with reflective material to power a giant photovoltaic system, > convert the energy to microwaves and beam it to an Earth receiving > station for reconversion to electricity-- but even that would be > incredibly expensive, and if the sending antenna wandered off target > on the earth-- whoops! > It seems more likely to me that the first nation to establish a > manned station on the moon might want to plant a huge, solar-powered > laser battery there to threaten other nations' satellites (cf. China > again) or moon-bound expeditions from other countries. A hostile moon > base could be a very scary prospect for every other nation. Such a > battery might be useful in detecting and deflecting Earth-threatening > asteroids, but humanity just doesn't seem to think in those > benevolent long-term ways yet. > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Did you people even read the complete article (below)? >> >> My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few >> articles >> about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued >> development of >> nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the >> information is true >> -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that >> the liberal >> CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility >> then a >> significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily >> involved >> there is likely much more to the story than we know which also >> probably >> precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. >> With the >> liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that >> the WMDs never >> existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they >> could >> use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it >> probably >> seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major >> threat. They >> also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any >> of the >> other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the >> region they >> did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know >> exactly where >> it went. >> >> My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly >> if he >> was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full >> details (if >> elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he >> campaigned. You can >> bet that there is much more to the story than what has been >> 'leaked' to any >> of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and >> changed >> his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding >> credibility >> that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) >> >> Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only >> or even >> the primary reason for our going after Saddam. >> >> China has been developing a highway toward that region because they >> also >> want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing >> many of the >> other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I >> believe we >> won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I >> also >> believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the >> countries in that >> area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We >> need the >> draft back to start preparing! >> >> Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in >> the M.E. >> would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a >> rapid >> rate. >> >> There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - >> on the >> Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war >> in the M.E. >> as the need for oil will still exist. >> >> The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred >> over >> female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a >> predominately male >> population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best >> way to >> use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what >> does a >> country do when they have an excess of males available? >> >> If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government >> believe >> they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. >> They want >> the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy >> to google >> information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) >> >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: >> >> Jeff, >> >> Never said that they were. >> >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> Adam, >>> >>> That theory certainly seems plausible. >>> >>> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ >>> 2006/2/18/233023.shtml >>> >>> It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being >>> back >> in >>> Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 21:22:22 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:22:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> References: <41e96.5d38e75e.38c0800f@aol.com> Message-ID: <35C531086D5543699D7F5A7FFC8F20A7@EdDaviePC> Interesting then that, Obama is cancelling the Moon program! Ed -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 7:16 PM To: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try googling > > energy moon race > > be sure to use the following in search also > > moon "helium-3" > > > > US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining > This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon > > Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to be there > between 2020 and 2030 > > To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to force > the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. > > The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race > I have known about the race for a number of years now... > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 9:58:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > The article would be a good deal more plausible if the negative label > "liberal" weren't used so-- liberally... ;^) > > That being said, China certainly seems to have the inside track on > Iragi oil-- that's one in the eye for the Bush/Cheney program. > Fuel on the moon? First I'd heard of it. It would have to be some > damn incredible fuel to warrant the cost of shipping it back to > Earth. One might conceivably cover a large portion of some sunward > crater with reflective material to power a giant photovoltaic system, > convert the energy to microwaves and beam it to an Earth receiving > station for reconversion to electricity-- but even that would be > incredibly expensive, and if the sending antenna wandered off target > on the earth-- whoops! > It seems more likely to me that the first nation to establish a > manned station on the moon might want to plant a huge, solar-powered > laser battery there to threaten other nations' satellites (cf. China > again) or moon-bound expeditions from other countries. A hostile moon > base could be a very scary prospect for every other nation. Such a > battery might be useful in detecting and deflecting Earth-threatening > asteroids, but humanity just doesn't seem to think in those > benevolent long-term ways yet. > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Did you people even read the complete article (below)? >> >> My memory of some of the events - there were actually quite a few >> articles >> about the WMDs existence in conjunction with continued development of >> nuclear weapons by Iraq. It stands to reason that if the >> information is true >> -WMDs existed, nuclear weapon development was on going, and that >> the liberal >> CIA members with the liberal press destroyed Bush's credibility >> then a >> significant issue remains in that region. Also, with Russia heavily >> involved >> there is likely much more to the story than we know which also >> probably >> precludes our doing much about the WMDs after they were removed. >> With the >> liberal press convincing a large portion of the US citizens that >> the WMDs never >> existed and the Bush administration had very little evidence they >> could >> use to prove otherwise - in their (Bush's administration) eyes it >> probably >> seemed moot as the dictator (Saddam) was no longer a major >> threat. They >> also probably did not want to make things worse with Russia or any >> of the >> other Middle Eastern countries either. With the volatility of the >> region they >> did not want to start WWIII. AND they probably do not know >> exactly where >> it went. >> >> My wife and I laughed at Obama's claim to get out of Iraq quickly >> if he >> was elected. We 'knew' that once he was briefed on the full >> details (if >> elected) that we would be in Iraq a lot longer than he >> campaigned. You can >> bet that there is much more to the story than what has been >> 'leaked' to any >> of the press. (Obama has extended the time we are to be there and >> changed >> his attitude about our presence in the Middle East; thus, adding >> credibility >> that there is 'alot' that we do not know about.) >> >> Yes, I would agree that oil is also an issue - but is not the only >> or even >> the primary reason for our going after Saddam. >> >> China has been developing a highway toward that region because they >> also >> want access to that oil (as does Russia). [I am not describing >> many of the >> other details I am aware of about that region.] Personally, I >> believe we >> won't see the end of war in that area until it gets much worse! I >> also >> believe that it is just a matter of time before one of the >> countries in that >> area uses nuclear weapons - which could easily start WWIII. We >> need the >> draft back to start preparing! >> >> Even if the US made itself oil independent the crises over oil in >> the M.E. >> would not go away - the world demand for oil is escalating at a rapid >> rate. >> >> There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the >> Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war >> in the M.E. >> as the need for oil will still exist. >> >> The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over >> female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a >> predominately male >> population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best >> way to >> use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what >> does a >> country do when they have an excess of males available? >> >> If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government >> believe >> they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. >> They want >> the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy >> to google >> information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) >> >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/3/2010 6:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> adamsmayer at gmail.com writes: >> >> Jeff, >> >> Never said that they were. >> >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> Adam, >>> >>> That theory certainly seems plausible. >>> >>> http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml >>> >>> It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being >>> back >> in >>> Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 21:47:33 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:47:33 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <17812-4B8EB23D-10961@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <626F6FBE-E112-4246-878E-4928EE04F213@verizon.net> Alan, Imagine that you have a D-8 CAT moving at 3-4 inches per minute pulling on a stump with a chain. You know that the CAT can rip the stump out of the ground. Question, how many minutes before the chain breaks or the stump pops free? Answer: It depend upon how much slack is in the chain when they start the process. Hint: We have done this before, it usually takes 15-30 minutes, and we are 16 minutes into the process. Any minute now. The Juan de Fuca plate is diving under the North American plate at a rate of 3-4 centimeters (cm) per year. We know that the the one plate is "caught" on the lip of the other because we can measure the land deforming under the stress. We don't know exactly how much deformation and stress will build up before the "caught" rocks pop loose and the two plates move to a more relaxed position. It has happened multiple times before, and they happen 300 - 700 years apart. We just don't know how much slack is in the system when the process started this last time. http://www.pnsn.org/INFO_GENERAL/NQT/what_causes.html David On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Mr Ed said.. > Alan, how can they give a date when they don't know when? It's just that > it is way past due! > Ed > - > Okay Ed... but who ays it's past due, and isn't a just a guess anyway? > Just because some quakes have already happened, does not mean that it is > proof positive that it's going to happen again. > > ~A~:?) From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 3 22:41:17 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:41:17 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:47:33 -0800 Message-ID: <25496-4B8F560D-1983@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> David.. what the heck does a D8 Cat, logging chain, and a stump got to do with the question I asked about why the date of this cat-tastrophe was supposed happen? by the bye ... thanks for the info about the plates. ~A~ :?) From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 23:43:32 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:43:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <00ca01cabb25$8c4533d0$a4cf9b70$@com> References: <4B8EA51C.2020905@jurislex.com> <4B8EDC1D.1090805@gmail.com> <00ca01cabb25$8c4533d0$a4cf9b70$@com> Message-ID: Oh. "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," ... He estimated that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions - roughly 60 percent of the entire U.S. arsenal. "The origins of these weapons were Russian, Chinese and French in declining order of magnitude, with the Russians holding the lion's share and the Chinese just edging out the French for second place."... "The intelligence included multiple sightings of truck convoys, convoys going north to the Syrian border and returning empty," he said.... In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S. military intelligence personnel.... -------------- Remember, the WMD programs were Iraqi, according to the Bush Administration, NOT purchased from the Russians, Chinese or French. We were sold the story that Iraq had a biological program, chemical program and a nuclear program. So, any "WMD Saddam bought from the Russians" would be a revision of the history. Unless it is talking about the materials purchased, in which case it should include the materials purchased from European partners of American companies associated with members of the Bush Administration. "100 million tons of munitions" removed by two Russian ships and dumped in the Indian ocean before the war started. The largest cargo vessels carry about 100 thousand tons of dry cargo. Do the math. Those two Russian ships made 500 trips each in those two months. Nine trips per day per ship. Right. Oh, maybe they were carried by truck convoys. At 60-100 tons per load, that is 1 million truck loads. Wait, no, the trucks were carrying the WMD not the munitions. Smaller loads to the safe and secure Lebanon. Shhhh! Don't tell the Israeli's, they have no qualms about going in and stealing it. The source claims WMD and 100 million tons of munitions. All disappeared in a cloud of skunk stink. Bogus data. When you hear bogus data, start doubting the source. Pretend for a minute that Iraq had WMD. Now, pretend that Bush & Co actually knew that they had them, and as V.P. Dick Cheney famously said, "we know where they are." So, in the run up to the invasion, why didn't the U.S. stop even one convoy, or shadow one trip by the Russian ships? Dumping at sea is illegal and the Coast Guard has the authority to board a ship in violation to review the cargo being dumped. When the invasion started, why didn't the Bush Administration close the Syrian border? It didn't happen because it didn't happen. Pretend for a minute that Iraq disposed of the WMD as described. Why did we invade? The threat was gone. Either it was in the Indian Ocean or it was in Syria and Lebanon. If it was at the bottom of the ocean, Saddam cannot get it back. If it went to Syria or Lebanon, then Israel has it now. In either case there was no remaining threat. We invaded a country for nothing. Spent trillions of dollars for nothing. Killed civilians and American soldiers for nothing. So why did we invade Iraq? Why did we allow the people who attacked our nation to withdraw to safe hideouts? Why did we withdraw support from the people who overthrew the Taliban? Why did we allow Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan? The story is BUSH. David On Mar 3, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > That theory certainly seems plausible. > > http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml > > It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being back in > Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 3 23:59:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:59:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <1749840925.10232711267645820261.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1749840925.10232711267645820261.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the materials he acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. Sadam did use chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the blessing of United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. After the first Iraq war the programs ended. When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar effort to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/POW from the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. Because they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also didn't plan to provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some planning. They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the economy over to friendly companies. And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. David On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: > He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. > And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to say different. > Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. > Curious in the very least. > donkelly From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 00:00:24 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:00:24 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <49815.189f58b2.38c0c298@aol.com> As for the Tonnage - not all of it went to the ocean bottom. US Coast Guard does not have authority over there! LOL more twisting of facts 100 million Tons is an estimate of an unknown quantity - the number was obviusly stated large or may have been misquoted by a reporter that jotted down a huge number. More likewly between the speaker doing wildly guessing at the amount and the writer booting he number higher we get the 100 million. I can remember when the Oregon journal would report headlines that had numbers to be always much higher than the OPregoinian - sometimes twice as much. After a few days the, you would often hear that the actual number to be something much less than what the Oregonian claimed. The US did not find out that everything had been removed until well after we had invaded and had committed ourselves. You are taking statements and twisting and rewording what was said in the article to fit your desired conclusion! When you hear bogus data like what you just posted, one tends to dismiss it as coming from another disgruntled progressive. The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 2:44:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: Oh. "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," ... He estimated that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions - roughly 60 percent of the entire U.S. arsenal. "The origins of these weapons were Russian, Chinese and French in declining order of magnitude, with the Russians holding the lion's share and the Chinese just edging out the French for second place."... "The intelligence included multiple sightings of truck convoys, convoys going north to the Syrian border and returning empty," he said.... In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S. military intelligence personnel.... -------------- Remember, the WMD programs were Iraqi, according to the Bush Administration, NOT purchased from the Russians, Chinese or French. We were sold the story that Iraq had a biological program, chemical program and a nuclear program. So, any "WMD Saddam bought from the Russians" would be a revision of the history. Unless it is talking about the materials purchased, in which case it should include the materials purchased from European partners of American companies associated with members of the Bush Administration. "100 million tons of munitions" removed by two Russian ships and dumped in the Indian ocean before the war started. The largest cargo vessels carry about 100 thousand tons of dry cargo. Do the math. Those two Russian ships made 500 trips each in those two months. Nine trips per day per ship. Right. Oh, maybe they were carried by truck convoys. At 60-100 tons per load, that is 1 million truck loads. Wait, no, the trucks were carrying the WMD not the munitions. Smaller loads to the safe and secure Lebanon. Shhhh! Don't tell the Israeli's, they have no qualms about going in and stealing it. The source claims WMD and 100 million tons of munitions. All disappeared in a cloud of skunk stink. Bogus data. When you hear bogus data, start doubting the source. Pretend for a minute that Iraq had WMD. Now, pretend that Bush & Co actually knew that they had them, and as V.P. Dick Cheney famously said, "we know where they are." So, in the run up to the invasion, why didn't the U.S. stop even one convoy, or shadow one trip by the Russian ships? Dumping at sea is illegal and the Coast Guard has the authority to board a ship in violation to review the cargo being dumped. When the invasion started, why didn't the Bush Administration close the Syrian border? It didn't happen because it didn't happen. Pretend for a minute that Iraq disposed of the WMD as described. Why did we invade? The threat was gone. Either it was in the Indian Ocean or it was in Syria and Lebanon. If it was at the bottom of the ocean, Saddam cannot get it back. If it went to Syria or Lebanon, then Israel has it now. In either case there was no remaining threat. We invaded a country for nothing. Spent trillions of dollars for nothing. Killed civilians and American soldiers for nothing. So why did we invade Iraq? Why did we allow the people who attacked our nation to withdraw to safe hideouts? Why did we withdraw support from the people who overthrew the Taliban? Why did we allow Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan? The story is BUSH. David On Mar 3, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > That theory certainly seems plausible. > > http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/2/18/233023.shtml > > It doesn't in any way mean the Dubya/Cheney motivations for being back in > Iraq were primarily (or even tangentially) about WMD though. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 00:02:37 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:02:37 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of years now? The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the materials he acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. Sadam did use chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the blessing of United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. After the first Iraq war the programs ended. When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar effort to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/POW from the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. Because they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also didn't plan to provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some planning. They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the economy over to friendly companies. And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. David On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: > He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. > And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to say different. > Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. > Curious in the very least. > donkelly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 00:03:21 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:03:21 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <4989b.49d4e405.38c0c349@aol.com> Suggestion: Go read what has been discovered about the helium-3 and how they expect to mine, get it to earth and then use it. Its all there on the web for you to read. You don't have to go all negative without actually reading what they are expecting to do. It is REAL - that they are going to the Moon to 'harvest' helium-3 for the purpose of running power plants. They expect to produce "lots" of 'safe' energy from "very small" quantities! My understanding they also expect to do most of the refining on the Moon whereby they will transport small quantities of the refined material to earth. With the list of countries saying they are going to the Moon to get this stuff - there has to be some viability to it. Some of the countries going after this are Russia, China, Japan, France, England, and U.S. [Just read the post that someone claims Obama is canceling the Moon project. He continues to show his ignorance and his desire to destroy the U.S.] I believe they plan to use the Sun's energy on the Moon to assist with the refining. If you do much reading you would find that helium-3 is extremely rare on earth; while 'relativey speaking' very abundant on the Moon. The small quantities on the Moon are minable. How much Gold is mined today in regards to parts per million; or iron or many of the other minerals that we process large quantities to gain what we are after. Here on earth those minerals require lots of energy to get the refined product - on the Moon the energy to refine the ore will essentially be free. Please read up on the subject -- and wiki is not the 'do all' for answers. In the 90s a guy found that the Moon dust contained 'large quantities' (figuratively - their wording) of the stuff and that he found a way to generate electricity with very very small quantities of it. I understand that some additional research was needed to be able to build a power generation plant that would economically generate electricity in large quantities. I was also left with the idea that it would be a 'safer' and 'cleaner' fuel than what is currently used in the current nuclear power plants. note: the following y'all is used in the Southern manner of referring to many in a generic sense - not a specific person Walt - Oh, by the way, my negative slant toward the 'illiterate liberals' is nothing different than what y'all do all the time on here with the negative slant toward conservatives, calling them ignorant, etc. There is no limit to the number of negative postings on here toward the conservatives. Often with very prejudiced opinions and repeated rantings (sheep) following the biased big 3 news media on TV or other very biased news sources. The liberals like to claim they are the 'most', the 'we' as in majority etc while in reality they are often the minority. They can sometimes sway people to join them in their cause but can never keep them in their flock because of their Marxist extremism and their know-it-all attitudes that are frequently incorrect. I have gotten tired of the GroveNet main posters chasing away most anyone that has an opposing view. I had decided some time ago to fire back from the other side to get some honest dialog going vs the name calling and extreme biased attitude that people such as Holly typically displays. I mention her, as she is recently a very regular poster with the disgusting prominent name calling without much substance posts. To help GroveNet, I thought I would start with using some of the liberal tactics to show the liberal posters what they sound like. I have tried to utilize some of the tactics used by the liberals that I have seen used on here over the years. There are conservatives reading GroveNet but most won't say anything as they know they will be attacked and rediculed. GroveNet, for the most part, is controlled by a few hard core liberal extremists. I like to get my news and information from many sources and realize who is writing (saying) what - most any news you hear/read today is biased in some way and often is what I call creative news. ABC, NBC and CBS are the best at this. Over the years, they have developed a huge flock of chickens ready to gobble up their half truths and lies. They are extremely good at taking things out of context or dropping a word here or there that completely changes the meaning of what was said by someone. They can grab a news story from the web (or other source) and blow it up huge. Then a couple days later when they realize someone suckered them; they often don't even bother with making any attempt to correct the story. Another sample is the many so called scientific studies they cover under the guise of health reports. The reporters can't keep a straight face while making the news report about some of these so-called health reports/studies that they know are bogus. Some reporters will even joke that everyone should live by "X" until next week when an opposing study will be announced. Watch for them - the Spring thesis rush is coming soon when all the students working on Doctorate Degrees have to get their reports/ studies turned in. Interestingly, I do not get my news from Fox, or any of the so called conservative talk show hosts; but from what I hear about them I probably would like listening to some of them. I've just never bothered tuning them in. I do watch the liberal big 3 news channels and read a number of extreme left news sources on the web and I read random stories on the Net that I find by following links while I search out the real story behind what is being reported. Oh, I also read what y'all have to say here on GroveNet. ;) The Grouch In a message dated 3/3/2010 10:45:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system which generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover one ton of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of lunar surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more massive and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it would be cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try > googling > > energy moon race > > be sure to use the following in search also > > moon "helium-3" > > > > US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining > This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon > > Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to > be there > between 2020 and 2030 > > To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to > force > the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. > > The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race > I have known about the race for a number of years now... > > The Grouch > > From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 00:25:54 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:25:54 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Yet another bites the dust Message-ID: <49863.66d2f4f7.38c0c892@aol.com> This is a different one! Another Democrat 'retires' (HEY, look I have quotes around the word retires - just like a I did the first time !) http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/eric-massa-freshman-house-democrat-t o-retire/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2F The Grouch From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 00:32:27 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:32:27 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are ahead - according to Poltics Daily Message-ID: <49390.2c867480.38c0ca1b@aol.com> last line of the article reads With Massa's retirement, the tally of departing House members now includes 15 outgoing Democrats and 19 retiring Republicans. It seems neither party has much faith in what is coming. They all have their excuses as to why they want to 'quit'. The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:26:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: This is a different one! Another Democrat 'retires' (HEY, look I have quotes around the word retires - just like a I did the first time !) http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/eric-massa-freshman-house-democrat-t o-retire/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2F The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 00:33:37 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:33:37 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> References: <3a0e0.579ba390.38c0602d@aol.com> Message-ID: <149B13B1-FBDB-4D3E-AC19-63A7ED6FEF8E@verizon.net> On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > > There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war in the M.E. as the need for oil will still exist. Maybe, but first let's see it working on earth. Then we can start using the Tritium to He3 from nuclear plants, or the He3 separation from liquefaction of air or natural gas. The lunar proposal is available at: http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm676.pdf > > The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a predominately male population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best way to use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what does a country do when they have an excess of males available? Take over the land, timber, water, mineral and petroleum resources of Siberia? It is a lot closer to China, geographically and ethnically. http://www.globalpolitician.com/2799-china > > If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government believe they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. They want the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy to google information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) > Without a clear statement, I can only guess. Perhaps you are saying that as one of the premier lenders to the United States, they may feel that they have a vested interest in our behavior? Like the landlord who doesn't want the tenant trashing the apartment? Or the mortgage holder that doesn't want the borrower trashing the collateral? Or the person who pays the piper gets to call the tune? > > The Grouch David From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 00:49:59 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:49:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_chicken_little_thing_about_fall?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ing_objects_and=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0the_like=2E?= In-Reply-To: <25496-4B8F560D-1983@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25496-4B8F560D-1983@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4D643F70-6488-4F79-8C31-C5EEC79FFFA1@verizon.net> The major earthquakes that visit the Oregon coast are caused by the movement of the plates. While we can measure the movement, we cannot see the actual rocks that are "locked", and we cannot predict when they will yield to the pressure and cause an earthquake. We do have physical evidence from ocean erosion at the coast that allows scientists to estimate the frequency of the earthquakes. There is a variance in the time between quakes. We know that they WILL come again, we just cannot set a date for them with our current knowledge. Right now the date is somewhere between 2000 A.D. and 2400 A.D. I thought that you may have pulled a stump some time. If so, then you know that some stumps come right out, while others require more pull. In the case of earthquakes, the longer the time between major quakes, the more stress that is built up, and the larger the magnitude of the quake. David On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:41 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > David.. what the heck does a D8 Cat, logging chain, and a stump got to do with the question I asked about why the date of this cat-tastrophe was supposed happen? > > by the bye ... thanks for the info about the plates. > > ~A~ :?) From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 01:04:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:04:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <49815.189f58b2.38c0c298@aol.com> References: <49815.189f58b2.38c0c298@aol.com> Message-ID: I understand that you are calling me a liar. Kindly provide an example from the text of the quoted article and my post. David On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > .. > You are taking statements and twisting and rewording what was said in the article to fit your desired conclusion! > .. > The Grouch From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 05:51:47 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:51:47 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Republicans are ahead - according to Poltics Daily In-Reply-To: <49390.2c867480.38c0ca1b@aol.com> References: <49390.2c867480.38c0ca1b@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8FBAF3.1080805@gmail.com> Not much of a retirement when it appears that his cancer has come back. Granted I don't like either party, but I do feel sorry that he is suffering. But you make a good point, Congressman Massa was one of the many who rode the anti-Republican wave in 08 in a very conservative district. My parents live just west of the 29th (in district 27) and in that part of New York liberals are not liked. He realizes that he won't win a second term, seeing that he only won by a little over 5000 votes the last time. And if the Conservative party doesn't run a candidate and works with the Republican, he'll lose. It's going to be interesting come November 2nd. Adam Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > last line of the article reads > > With Massa's retirement, the tally of departing House members now includes > 15 outgoing Democrats and 19 retiring Republicans. > > It seems neither party has much faith in what is coming. They all have > their excuses as to why they want to 'quit'. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:26:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Jamsm at aol.com writes: > > > This is a different one! > Another Democrat 'retires' (HEY, look I have quotes around the word > retires - just like a I did the first time !) > > > http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/03/eric-massa-freshman-house-democrat-t > o-retire/?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2F > > The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 07:14:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:14:52 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> Message-ID: <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the neocons to a more democratic vision... "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of > years now? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the > materials he > acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. > Sadam did use > chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the > blessing of > United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials Donald > Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. > > After the first Iraq war the programs ended. > > When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar > effort > to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ > POW from > the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. > Because > they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also > didn't plan to > provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some > planning. > They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the > economy over > to friendly companies. > > And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. > > David > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >> say > different. >> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >> Curious in the very least. >> donkelly > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 07:20:40 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:20:40 EST Subject: [Grovenet] occupation by China? Message-ID: <576a2.4a716b42.38c129c8@aol.com> an article discussing the speach I referred to and includes a copy of the speech is found below an excerpt: During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. Another: Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization. Therefore, solving the ?issue of America? is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the white race. We the descendents of the Chinese nation are entitled to the possession of the land! It is said that the residents of the yellow race have a very low social status in United States. We need to liberate them. Second, after solving the ?issue of America,? the western countries in Europe would bow to us, not to mention to Taiwan, Japan and other small countries. Therefore, solving the ?issue of America? is the mission assigned to CCP members by history. a link to a search for related postings _http://www.google.com/search?q=The+War+is+not+far+from+us&rls=com.microsoft :en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz_ (http://www.google.com/search?q=The+War+is+not+far+from+us&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF -8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz) = a link to a copy of the speech _http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html_ (http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html) a discussion of the speech - includes a copy of speech - is copy protected _http://www.scribd.com/doc/16627298/China-Defense-minister-speech-on-USA-ext ermination_ (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16627298/China-Defense-minister-speech-on-USA-extermination) - The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:34:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > > There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war in the M.E. as the need for oil will still exist. Maybe, but first let's see it working on earth. Then we can start using the Tritium to He3 from nuclear plants, or the He3 separation from liquefaction of air or natural gas. The lunar proposal is available at: http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm676.pdf > > The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a predominately male population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best way to use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what does a country do when they have an excess of males available? Take over the land, timber, water, mineral and petroleum resources of Siberia? It is a lot closer to China, geographically and ethnically. http://www.globalpolitician.com/2799-china > > If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government believe they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. They want the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy to google information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) > Without a clear statement, I can only guess. Perhaps you are saying that as one of the premier lenders to the United States, they may feel that they have a vested interest in our behavior? Like the landlord who doesn't want the tenant trashing the apartment? Or the mortgage holder that doesn't want the borrower trashing the collateral? Or the person who pays the piper gets to call the tune? > > The Grouch David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 07:33:25 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:33:25 EST Subject: [Grovenet] occupation by China? Message-ID: <58604.77a405de.38c12cc5@aol.com> Sorry I forgot to treat the mail as plain text - this is corrected in this mailing an article discussing the speech I referred to and includes a copy of the speech is found below an excerpt: During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became Indians in the Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. Another: Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization. Therefore, solving the ?issue of America? is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the white race. We the descendents of the Chinese nation are entitled to the possession of the land! It is said that the residents of the yellow race have a very low social status in United States. We need to liberate them. Second, after solving the ?issue of America,? the western countries in Europe would bow to us, not to mention to Taiwan, Japan and other small countries. Therefore, solving the ?issue of America? is the mission assigned to CCP members by history. a link to a search for related postings http://www.google.com/search?q=The+War+is+not+far+from+us&rls=com.microsoft: en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz= a link to a copy of the speech http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html a discussion of the speech - includes a copy of speech - is copy protected http://www.scribd.com/doc/16627298/China-Defense-minister-speech-on-USA-exte rmination The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:34:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > > There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - on the Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war in the M.E. as the need for oil will still exist. Maybe, but first let's see it working on earth. Then we can start using the Tritium to He3 from nuclear plants, or the He3 separation from liquefaction of air or natural gas. The lunar proposal is available at: http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm676.pdf > > The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are preferred over female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a predominately male population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the best way to use a population that is predominantly male? Historically, what does a country do when they have an excess of males available? Take over the land, timber, water, mineral and petroleum resources of Siberia? It is a lot closer to China, geographically and ethnically. http://www.globalpolitician.com/2799-china > > If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government believe they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated it. They want the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too lazy to google information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) > Without a clear statement, I can only guess. Perhaps you are saying that as one of the premier lenders to the United States, they may feel that they have a vested interest in our behavior? Like the landlord who doesn't want the tenant trashing the apartment? Or the mortgage holder that doesn't want the borrower trashing the collateral? Or the person who pays the piper gets to call the tune? > > The Grouch David From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 07:38:40 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 07:38:40 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who brought us eugenics. Count me out. Walt Wentz wrote: > Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the > future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the > neocons to a more democratic vision... > "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > > >> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >> years now? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >> materials he >> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >> Sadam did use >> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >> blessing of >> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials Donald >> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >> >> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >> >> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >> effort >> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ >> POW from >> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >> Because >> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >> didn't plan to >> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >> planning. >> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >> economy over >> to friendly companies. >> >> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>> say >>> >> different. >> >>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>> Curious in the very least. >>> donkelly >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 07:53:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:53:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4989b.49d4e405.38c0c349@aol.com> References: <4989b.49d4e405.38c0c349@aol.com> Message-ID: Granted, solar power would be essentially "free" on the moon, if you don't count the the tremendous photovoltaic infrastructure you'd have to build to collect, concentrate and deliver it. (Photovoltaic panels being mostly silica, you might be able to set up a plant manufacturing those panels on the moon also). And, considering the micrometeorites pelting the moon, you've have to allow for periodic maintenance and upkeep of the system. That being done, you've got to have TREMENDOUS regolith-moving capability, and a place to dump the vast amounts of "spoil..." maybe a convenient crater that happens to be right next to the regolith plain you are working. Due to the long, dark lunar night, the whole system would have to shut down half the time (batteries large enough to run such a system are nearly inconceivable). OK-- jumping ahead over a a lot of other practical considerations-- say you now have the helium extracted from the regolith. This will be mostly plain old Helium-4, with a very tiny admixture of the desired helium-3. A ton of that stuff would, theoretically, power the USA for one year. The question is, how to extract it? Can't be done chemically, as helium is inert. The obvious answer seems to be large banks of high-speed gas centrifuges, like the thousands of centrifuges the Iranians are building for their "peaceful" atomic program. Barring building a centrifuge factory on the moon, together with foundries for smelting the metals and glass, plus precision machining and electronics workshops, etc., etc., you'd have to ship most of the finished machinery from Earth. The helium-3, being very marginally lighter, might be separated off by repeated centrifuging. The huge amounts of recovered Helium-4 would represent an enormous investment in refining effort, but I suppose it'd have to be be vented off, as natural gas is "flared" and wasted at Saudi oil wells. Pity. If you could prepare vast, helium-tight chambers underground, maybe you could use some of that solar power to pump them full of helium-4, thus spinning turbines during the dark hours... I hope by now you see what I am getting at: ANYBODY can spin huge, grandiose pipe dreams about unlimited wealth, unlimited power, etc. But the practical considerations that are always glossed over in these grand dreams (remember "trickle-down" economics?) will always demand their pound of flesh. As others have pointed out, Mother Nature (and Human Nature) don't negotiate. They present their demands, and they don't give a damn whether you can meet them or not. If all grand ideas could all be easily and economically achieved, we'd all be driving Flying Cars by now. It seems we had best concentrate on dealing pragmatically with the mess we have now, rather than confidently anticipating that things will "somehow work out" if we just keep slobbing along. On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggestion: Go read what has been discovered about the helium-3 > and how > they expect to mine, get it to earth and then use it. Its all > there on the > web for you to read. You don't have to go all negative without > actually > reading what they are expecting to do. It is REAL - that they are > going to > the Moon to 'harvest' helium-3 for the purpose of running power > plants. > > They expect to produce "lots" of 'safe' energy from "very small" > quantities! My understanding they also expect to do most of the > refining on the > Moon whereby they will transport small quantities of the refined > material to > earth. With the list of countries saying they are going to the > Moon to get > this stuff - there has to be some viability to it. Some of the > countries > going after this are Russia, China, Japan, France, England, and > U.S. [Just > read the post that someone claims Obama is canceling the Moon > project. He > continues to show his ignorance and his desire to destroy the U.S.] I > believe they plan to use the Sun's energy on the Moon to assist > with the > refining. > > If you do much reading you would find that helium-3 is extremely > rare on > earth; while 'relativey speaking' very abundant on the Moon. The > small > quantities on the Moon are minable. How much Gold is mined today > in regards to > parts per million; or iron or many of the other minerals that we > process > large quantities to gain what we are after. Here on earth those > minerals > require lots of energy to get the refined product - on the Moon > the energy to > refine the ore will essentially be free. > Please read up on the subject -- and wiki is not the 'do all' for > answers. > > > In the 90s a guy found that the Moon dust contained 'large > quantities' > (figuratively - their wording) of the stuff and that he found a > way to > generate electricity with very very small quantities of it. > I understand that some additional research was needed to be able to > build a power generation plant that would economically generate > electricity in > large quantities. I was also left with the idea that it would be > a 'safer' > and 'cleaner' fuel than what is currently used in the current nuclear > power plants. > > note: the following y'all is used in the Southern manner of > referring to > many in a generic sense - not a specific person > > Walt - Oh, by the way, my negative slant toward the 'illiterate > liberals' is nothing different than what y'all do all the time on > here with the > negative slant toward conservatives, calling them ignorant, etc. > There is no > limit to the number of negative postings on here toward the > conservatives. > Often with very prejudiced opinions and repeated rantings (sheep) > following the biased big 3 news media on TV or other very biased > news sources. > The liberals like to claim they are the 'most', the 'we' as in > majority etc > while in reality they are often the minority. They can sometimes > sway > people to join them in their cause but can never keep them in > their flock > because of their Marxist extremism and their know-it-all attitudes > that are > frequently incorrect. I have gotten tired of the GroveNet main > posters chasing > away most anyone that has an opposing view. I had decided some > time ago to > fire back from the other side to get some honest dialog going vs > the name > calling and extreme biased attitude that people such as Holly > typically > displays. I mention her, as she is recently a very regular poster > with the > disgusting prominent name calling without much substance posts. > To help > GroveNet, I thought I would start with using some of the liberal > tactics to > show the liberal posters what they sound like. I have tried to > utilize > some of the tactics used by the liberals that I have seen used on > here over > the years. There are conservatives reading GroveNet but most > won't say > anything as they know they will be attacked and rediculed. > GroveNet, for > the most part, is controlled by a few hard core liberal extremists. > > I like to get my news and information from many sources and > realize who is > writing (saying) what - most any news you hear/read today is > biased in > some way and often is what I call creative news. ABC, NBC and CBS > are the > best at this. Over the years, they have developed a huge flock of > chickens > ready to gobble up their half truths and lies. They are extremely > good at > taking things out of context or dropping a word here or there > that completely > changes the meaning of what was said by someone. They can grab a > news > story from the web (or other source) and blow it up huge. Then a > couple days > later when they realize someone suckered them; they often don't > even bother > with making any attempt to correct the story. Another sample is > the many so > called scientific studies they cover under the guise of health > reports. > The reporters can't keep a straight face while making the news > report about > some of these so-called health reports/studies that they know are > bogus. > Some reporters will even joke that everyone should live by "X" > until next > week when an opposing study will be announced. Watch for them - the > Spring thesis rush is coming soon when all the students working on > Doctorate > Degrees have to get their reports/ studies turned in. > Interestingly, I do > not get my news from Fox, or any of the so called conservative > talk show > hosts; but from what I hear about them I probably would like > listening to some > of them. I've just never bothered tuning them in. I do watch the > liberal > big 3 news channels and read a number of extreme left news sources > on the > web and I read random stories on the Net that I find by following > links while > I search out the real story behind what is being reported. Oh, I > also > read what y'all have to say here on GroveNet. ;) > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 10:45:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system which > generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a > fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. > Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm > is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover one ton > of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of lunar > surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more massive > and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- > meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even > then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it would be > cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try >> googling >> >> energy moon race >> >> be sure to use the following in search also >> >> moon "helium-3" >> >> >> >> US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining >> This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon >> >> Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to >> be there >> between 2020 and 2030 >> >> To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to >> force >> the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. >> >> The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race >> I have known about the race for a number of years now... >> >> The Grouch >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 07:54:09 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:54:09 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Message-ID: <59f91.1d09e4ef.38c131a1@aol.com> They call themselves "progressives" - others just use the term so those that identify themselves as such will know who is being referred to. If I had used the term regressive, there are some that would not understand what I meant. I like your term for them better - so lets call them "regressives" in the future; they are not progressive in any manner in my book! They like to use a new word to identify themselves with anytime the word that they are using gets too much of a negative connotation. So, why not start with a negative slant and see where that takes them. Maybe they can change the meaning of that word to mean something positive - quite unlikely though. The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 10:15:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the neocons to a more democratic vision... "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of > years now? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the > materials he > acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. > Sadam did use > chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the > blessing of > United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials Donald > Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. > > After the first Iraq war the programs ended. > > When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar > effort > to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ > POW from > the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. > Because > they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also > didn't plan to > provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some > planning. > They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the > economy over > to friendly companies. > > And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. > > David > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >> say > different. >> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >> Curious in the very least. >> donkelly > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 08:03:19 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:03:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> Message-ID: Would you call eugenics "progressive?" Actually, it was a totalitarian vision that was cooked up in the 1890s, and was pretty well rejected everywhere except Nazi Germany as an affront to human liberty... as is racism, and oligarchy, and religious exceptionalism, and the neo-Darwinian economic fantasies peddled by some far-right types. On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who > brought > us eugenics. > > Count me out. > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the >> future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the >> neocons to a more democratic vision... >> "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... >> >> >> On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >>> years now? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >>> materials he >>> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >>> Sadam did use >>> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >>> blessing of >>> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >>> Donald >>> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >>> >>> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >>> >>> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >>> effort >>> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ >>> POW from >>> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >>> Because >>> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >>> didn't plan to >>> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >>> planning. >>> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >>> economy over >>> to friendly companies. >>> >>> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>> >>>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>>> say >>>> >>> different. >>> >>>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>>> Curious in the very least. >>>> donkelly >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 4 08:08:10 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:08:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008901cabbb4$e2f73680$a8e5a380$@net> The National Socialist Party? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:03 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Would you call eugenics "progressive?" Actually, it was a totalitarian vision that was cooked up in the 1890s, and was pretty well rejected everywhere except Nazi Germany as an affront to human liberty... as is racism, and oligarchy, and religious exceptionalism, and the neo-Darwinian economic fantasies peddled by some far-right types. On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who > brought > us eugenics. > > Count me out. > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the >> future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the >> neocons to a more democratic vision... >> "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... >> >> >> On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >>> years now? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >>> materials he >>> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >>> Sadam did use >>> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >>> blessing of >>> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >>> Donald >>> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >>> >>> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >>> >>> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >>> effort >>> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ >>> POW from >>> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >>> Because >>> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >>> didn't plan to >>> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >>> planning. >>> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >>> economy over >>> to friendly companies. >>> >>> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>> >>>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>>> say >>>> >>> different. >>> >>>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>>> Curious in the very least. >>>> donkelly >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 08:08:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:08:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <59f91.1d09e4ef.38c131a1@aol.com> References: <59f91.1d09e4ef.38c131a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B17A5EC-7E26-4977-B613-C7074BFF942E@teleport.com> Grouchie: Words like "liberal" do not "get" a negative connotation, those connotations were carefully and persistently applied and repeated and re-repeated by the Republican Noise Machine. As a certain failed Austrian artist-turned-politician supposedly said, "shout a lie loud enough and long enough..." It's called "recasting." For a quick and entertaining read on the subject, try Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant." Or just count the number of times you use "liberal" as a pejorative in your own writings. On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:54 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > They call themselves "progressives" - others just use the term > so those > that identify themselves as such will know who is being referred to. > > If I had used the term regressive, there are some that would not > understand > what I meant. > > I like your term for them better - so lets call them "regressives" > in the > future; they are not progressive in any manner in my book! They > like to > use a new word to identify themselves with anytime the word that > they are > using gets too much of a negative connotation. So, why not start > with a > negative slant and see where that takes them. Maybe they can > change the > meaning of that word to mean something positive - quite unlikely > though. > > > The Grouch > > In a message dated 3/4/2010 10:15:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the > future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the > neocons to a more democratic vision... > "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >> years now? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >> materials he >> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >> Sadam did use >> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >> blessing of >> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >> Donald >> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >> >> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >> >> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >> effort >> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ >> POW from >> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >> Because >> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >> didn't plan to >> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >> planning. >> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >> economy over >> to friendly companies. >> >> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>> say >> different. >>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>> Curious in the very least. >>> donkelly >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 08:38:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:38:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <008901cabbb4$e2f73680$a8e5a380$@net> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <008901cabbb4$e2f73680$a8e5a380$@net> Message-ID: <8C4C8138-B03F-4AD3-86DA-E53AB58089D9@teleport.com> Neo-Darwinism is the jolly little mindset of "anyone who isn't rich and gets stricken by misfortune, it's his own damn fault and because Darwin said "the survival of the fittest," then he/she should just quietly die without expecting any assistance from the Taxpayers, especially me." I leave you to judge which faction lays claim, either overtly or implicitly, to this mindset. On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Steven wrote: > The National Socialist Party? > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:03 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Would you call eugenics "progressive?" Actually, it was a > totalitarian vision that was cooked up in the 1890s, and was pretty > well rejected everywhere except Nazi Germany as an affront to human > liberty... as is racism, and oligarchy, and religious exceptionalism, > and the neo-Darwinian economic fantasies peddled by some far-right > types. > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who >> brought >> us eugenics. >> >> Count me out. >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the >>> future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the >>> neocons to a more democratic vision... >>> "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... >>> >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >>>> years now? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >>>> materials he >>>> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >>>> Sadam did use >>>> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >>>> blessing of >>>> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >>>> Donald >>>> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >>>> >>>> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >>>> >>>> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >>>> effort >>>> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the >>>> MIA/ >>>> POW from >>>> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >>>> Because >>>> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >>>> didn't plan to >>>> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >>>> planning. >>>> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >>>> economy over >>>> to friendly companies. >>>> >>>> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>>>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>>>> say >>>>> >>>> different. >>>> >>>>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>>>> Curious in the very least. >>>>> donkelly >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 08:41:15 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:41:15 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race Message-ID: <5d9fc.36606054.38c13cab@aol.com> 1 ) I am not a minor, nuclear physicist, chemist, or astro-physicist, etc. 2) I doubt you are 3) you refer to "micrometeorites pelting the moon" - if that was such a severe problem our satellites and astronauts would be in huge trouble. It isn't like rain - lol 4) you assume the mining is to be done like mining on earth is done - I do not believe that is the case. The stuff they are after is on the surface not buried. The machinery could travel across the surface processing the ore as it goes leaving the waste behind where it had been. 5) there are several possible sources of energy in addition to photovoltaic cells which could be orbited Hydrogen is one - from water; but that would also require the photovoltaic cells Collectors made of mirrors and lenses for heat... am sure the scientists are thinking of more ways. There are articles on the web that discuss this, some tend to lean in the direction that the fusion power is not feasible - but they are ignoring the guy that demonstrated a method in the 90's. There are others that stick to the "it isn't practical or economically feasible" belief. (Maybe not today, but in the future, who knows.) Others think of it as Man leaving Africa. If we don't go, it will be likely that other countries will be far ahead of us. No one has stated that all the logistics have been solved. Nor have they made any statement as to when this power source would be available on earth. A short article discussing more from both sides: http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276 An excerpt: NASA plans to have a permanent moon base by 2024, but America is not the only nation with plans for a moon base. China, India, the European Space Agency, and at least one Russian corporation, Energia, have visions of building manned lunar bases post-2020. Mining the moon for helium-3 has been discussed widely in space circles and international space conferences. Both China and Russia have stated their nations' interest in helium-3. "We will provide the most reliable report on helium-3 to mankind," Ouyang Ziyuan, the chief scientist of China's lunar program, told a Chinese newspaper. "Whoever first conquers the moon will benefit first." Read More http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276#ixzz0hE2LHsqU The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 10:55:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Granted, solar power would be essentially "free" on the moon, if you don't count the the tremendous photovoltaic infrastructure you'd have to build to collect, concentrate and deliver it. (Photovoltaic panels being mostly silica, you might be able to set up a plant manufacturing those panels on the moon also). And, considering the micrometeorites pelting the moon, you've have to allow for periodic maintenance and upkeep of the system. That being done, you've got to have TREMENDOUS regolith-moving capability, and a place to dump the vast amounts of "spoil..." maybe a convenient crater that happens to be right next to the regolith plain you are working. Due to the long, dark lunar night, the whole system would have to shut down half the time (batteries large enough to run such a system are nearly inconceivable). OK-- jumping ahead over a a lot of other practical considerations-- say you now have the helium extracted from the regolith. This will be mostly plain old Helium-4, with a very tiny admixture of the desired helium-3. A ton of that stuff would, theoretically, power the USA for one year. The question is, how to extract it? Can't be done chemically, as helium is inert. The obvious answer seems to be large banks of high-speed gas centrifuges, like the thousands of centrifuges the Iranians are building for their "peaceful" atomic program. Barring building a centrifuge factory on the moon, together with foundries for smelting the metals and glass, plus precision machining and electronics workshops, etc., etc., you'd have to ship most of the finished machinery from Earth. The helium-3, being very marginally lighter, might be separated off by repeated centrifuging. The huge amounts of recovered Helium-4 would represent an enormous investment in refining effort, but I suppose it'd have to be be vented off, as natural gas is "flared" and wasted at Saudi oil wells. Pity. If you could prepare vast, helium-tight chambers underground, maybe you could use some of that solar power to pump them full of helium-4, thus spinning turbines during the dark hours... I hope by now you see what I am getting at: ANYBODY can spin huge, grandiose pipe dreams about unlimited wealth, unlimited power, etc. But the practical considerations that are always glossed over in these grand dreams (remember "trickle-down" economics?) will always demand their pound of flesh. As others have pointed out, Mother Nature (and Human Nature) don't negotiate. They present their demands, and they don't give a damn whether you can meet them or not. If all grand ideas could all be easily and economically achieved, we'd all be driving Flying Cars by now. It seems we had best concentrate on dealing pragmatically with the mess we have now, rather than confidently anticipating that things will "somehow work out" if we just keep slobbing along. On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggestion: Go read what has been discovered about the helium-3 > and how > they expect to mine, get it to earth and then use it. Its all > there on the > web for you to read. You don't have to go all negative without > actually > reading what they are expecting to do. It is REAL - that they are > going to > the Moon to 'harvest' helium-3 for the purpose of running power > plants. > > They expect to produce "lots" of 'safe' energy from "very small" > quantities! My understanding they also expect to do most of the > refining on the > Moon whereby they will transport small quantities of the refined > material to > earth. With the list of countries saying they are going to the > Moon to get > this stuff - there has to be some viability to it. Some of the > countries > going after this are Russia, China, Japan, France, England, and > U.S. [Just > read the post that someone claims Obama is canceling the Moon > project. He > continues to show his ignorance and his desire to destroy the U.S.] I > believe they plan to use the Sun's energy on the Moon to assist > with the > refining. > > If you do much reading you would find that helium-3 is extremely > rare on > earth; while 'relativey speaking' very abundant on the Moon. The > small > quantities on the Moon are minable. How much Gold is mined today > in regards to > parts per million; or iron or many of the other minerals that we > process > large quantities to gain what we are after. Here on earth those > minerals > require lots of energy to get the refined product - on the Moon > the energy to > refine the ore will essentially be free. > Please read up on the subject -- and wiki is not the 'do all' for > answers. > > > In the 90s a guy found that the Moon dust contained 'large > quantities' > (figuratively - their wording) of the stuff and that he found a > way to > generate electricity with very very small quantities of it. > I understand that some additional research was needed to be able to > build a power generation plant that would economically generate > electricity in > large quantities. I was also left with the idea that it would be > a 'safer' > and 'cleaner' fuel than what is currently used in the current nuclear > power plants. > > note: the following y'all is used in the Southern manner of > referring to > many in a generic sense - not a specific person > > Walt - Oh, by the way, my negative slant toward the 'illiterate > liberals' is nothing different than what y'all do all the time on > here with the > negative slant toward conservatives, calling them ignorant, etc. > There is no > limit to the number of negative postings on here toward the > conservatives. > Often with very prejudiced opinions and repeated rantings (sheep) > following the biased big 3 news media on TV or other very biased > news sources. > The liberals like to claim they are the 'most', the 'we' as in > majority etc > while in reality they are often the minority. They can sometimes > sway > people to join them in their cause but can never keep them in > their flock > because of their Marxist extremism and their know-it-all attitudes > that are > frequently incorrect. I have gotten tired of the GroveNet main > posters chasing > away most anyone that has an opposing view. I had decided some > time ago to > fire back from the other side to get some honest dialog going vs > the name > calling and extreme biased attitude that people such as Holly > typically > displays. I mention her, as she is recently a very regular poster > with the > disgusting prominent name calling without much substance posts. > To help > GroveNet, I thought I would start with using some of the liberal > tactics to > show the liberal posters what they sound like. I have tried to > utilize > some of the tactics used by the liberals that I have seen used on > here over > the years. There are conservatives reading GroveNet but most > won't say > anything as they know they will be attacked and rediculed. > GroveNet, for > the most part, is controlled by a few hard core liberal extremists. > > I like to get my news and information from many sources and > realize who is > writing (saying) what - most any news you hear/read today is > biased in > some way and often is what I call creative news. ABC, NBC and CBS > are the > best at this. Over the years, they have developed a huge flock of > chickens > ready to gobble up their half truths and lies. They are extremely > good at > taking things out of context or dropping a word here or there > that completely > changes the meaning of what was said by someone. They can grab a > news > story from the web (or other source) and blow it up huge. Then a > couple days > later when they realize someone suckered them; they often don't > even bother > with making any attempt to correct the story. Another sample is > the many so > called scientific studies they cover under the guise of health > reports. > The reporters can't keep a straight face while making the news > report about > some of these so-called health reports/studies that they know are > bogus. > Some reporters will even joke that everyone should live by "X" > until next > week when an opposing study will be announced. Watch for them - the > Spring thesis rush is coming soon when all the students working on > Doctorate > Degrees have to get their reports/ studies turned in. > Interestingly, I do > not get my news from Fox, or any of the so called conservative > talk show > hosts; but from what I hear about them I probably would like > listening to some > of them. I've just never bothered tuning them in. I do watch the > liberal > big 3 news channels and read a number of extreme left news sources > on the > web and I read random stories on the Net that I find by following > links while > I search out the real story behind what is being reported. Oh, I > also > read what y'all have to say here on GroveNet. ;) > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/3/2010 10:45:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system which > generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a > fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. > Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm > is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover one ton > of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of lunar > surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more massive > and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- > meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even > then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it would be > cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try >> googling >> >> energy moon race >> >> be sure to use the following in search also >> >> moon "helium-3" >> >> >> >> US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining >> This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon >> >> Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to >> be there >> between 2020 and 2030 >> >> To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to >> force >> the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. >> >> The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race >> I have known about the race for a number of years now... >> >> The Grouch >> >> > > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 4 08:44:22 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:44:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <8C4C8138-B03F-4AD3-86DA-E53AB58089D9@teleport.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <008901cabbb4$e2f73680$a8e5a380$@net> <8C4C8138-B03F-4AD3-86DA-E53AB58089D9@teleport.com> Message-ID: <000301cabbb9$f351f920$d9f5eb60$@net> Have you read and understood the new health bill? Read some of the other writings of Emanuel? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Neo-Darwinism is the jolly little mindset of "anyone who isn't rich and gets stricken by misfortune, it's his own damn fault and because Darwin said "the survival of the fittest," then he/she should just quietly die without expecting any assistance from the Taxpayers, especially me." I leave you to judge which faction lays claim, either overtly or implicitly, to this mindset. On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:08 AM, Steven wrote: > The National Socialist Party? > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:03 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Would you call eugenics "progressive?" Actually, it was a > totalitarian vision that was cooked up in the 1890s, and was pretty > well rejected everywhere except Nazi Germany as an affront to human > liberty... as is racism, and oligarchy, and religious exceptionalism, > and the neo-Darwinian economic fantasies peddled by some far-right > types. > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who >> brought >> us eugenics. >> >> Count me out. >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the >>> future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the >>> neocons to a more democratic vision... >>> "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... >>> >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >>>> years now? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >>>> materials he >>>> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >>>> Sadam did use >>>> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >>>> blessing of >>>> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >>>> Donald >>>> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >>>> >>>> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >>>> >>>> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >>>> effort >>>> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the >>>> MIA/ >>>> POW from >>>> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >>>> Because >>>> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >>>> didn't plan to >>>> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >>>> planning. >>>> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >>>> economy over >>>> to friendly companies. >>>> >>>> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>>>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>>>> say >>>>> >>>> different. >>>> >>>>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>>>> Curious in the very least. >>>>> donkelly >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 10:20:27 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:20:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] occupation by China? In-Reply-To: <58604.77a405de.38c12cc5@aol.com> References: <58604.77a405de.38c12cc5@aol.com> Message-ID: It sounds like there may be some area of agreement between the liberals and the conservatives here on grovenet if this is expressing some concern about the rising power of China. Some are more worried about China 'buying' America simply because we have been shipping them jobs and money for some time. Others may worry more about an invading army as is suggested below. And still others worry that we will not be able to manufacture our military hardware without Chinese parts in the very near future. Or maybe all of the above. I worry that if we dismantle our own government and turn over authority to large international corporations, the corporations will have no vested interest in stopping any sort of overtures by China in any form (Chinese army, Chinese government, or Chinese corporations). Katie On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Sorry I forgot to treat the mail as plain text - this is > corrected in > this mailing > > an article discussing the speech I referred to and includes a copy > of the > speech is found below > > an excerpt: > > During our long history, our people have disseminated throughout the > Americas and the regions along the Pacific Rim, and they became > Indians in > the > Americas and the East Asian ethnic groups in the South Pacific. > > Another: > > Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? > First, > if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do > anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, > even if > we > could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even > Japan, how > much > more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the > United > States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need > for > mass > colonization. > Therefore, solving the ?issue of America? is the key to solving > all other > > issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people > migrate > there and even establish another China under the same leadership > of the > CCP. > America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow > race, > but > Columbus gave credit to the white race. We the descendents of the > Chinese > nation are entitled to the possession of the land! It is said > that the > residents of the yellow race have a very low social status in United > States. We > need to liberate them. Second, after solving the ?issue of > America,? the > > western countries in Europe would bow to us, not to mention to > Taiwan, > Japan > and other small countries. Therefore, solving the ?issue of > America? is > the mission assigned to CCP members by history. > > a link to a search for related postings > http://www.google.com/search?q=The+War+is+not+far+from > +us&rls=com.microsoft: > en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz= > > a link to a copy of the speech > http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html > > a discussion of the speech - includes a copy of speech - is copy > protected > http://www.scribd.com/doc/16627298/China-Defense-minister-speech-on- > USA-exte > rmination > > > > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:34:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> >> There is another source of power that may be fought over soon - >> on the > > Moon. I do not believe that fuel source will prevent a major war > in the > M.E. as the need for oil will still exist. > > Maybe, but first let's see it working on earth. Then we can > start using > the Tritium to He3 from nuclear plants, or the He3 separation from > liquefaction of air or natural gas. > The lunar proposal is available at: > http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/pdf/fdm676.pdf > >> >> The birth rate in China is a factor. Male children are >> preferred over > > female due to cultural preferences. This has resulted in a > predominately > > male population and an army that grows in size daily. What is the > best > way to use a population that is predominantly male? > Historically, what > does > a country do when they have an excess of males available? > > Take over the land, timber, water, mineral and petroleum > resources of > Siberia? It is a lot closer to China, geographically and > ethnically. > http://www.globalpolitician.com/2799-china > >> >> If you had not heard - high officials of the Chinese government > believe > they have "rights" to North America and have publicly stated > it. They > want the land (North America) for a variety of reasons. (Am too > lazy to > google information related to that - am sure it is easy to find.) >> > Without a clear statement, I can only guess. Perhaps you are > saying that > > as one of the premier lenders to the United States, they may feel > that > they > have a vested interest in our behavior? Like the landlord who > doesn't > want the tenant trashing the apartment? Or the mortgage holder that > doesn't > want the borrower trashing the collateral? Or the person who pays > the > piper > gets to call the tune? >> >> The Grouch > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu Mar 4 10:38:33 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:38:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Mayor to honor local woman 3/8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <250458.10450.qm@web55604.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Mayor Pete Truax will present a proclamation in honor of Women's History Month, which will be received by Pacific's Center for Gender Equity (CGE).? CGE has selected DR. LORELY FRENCH as their honoree for Women's History Month, 2010. Date:? Monday, March 8 Time:? 7:00 pm Place:? Community Auditorium, 1915 Main Street, Forest Grove. All Welcome. Congrats to Lorely! ? Alana From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Mar 4 11:04:20 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:04:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Ashburn "retiring" too? Message-ID: <01b001cabbcd$82ad5d90$880818b0$@com> Roy Ashburn (R), a California Senator is arrested for driving drunk http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/politics&id=7307423 Now, for the version I found had the biggest giggle factor: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/03/04/crimesider/entry6266524.shtml I'm disappointed they left out "worstesterest" though. ;) Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 11:10:59 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:10:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Ashburn "retiring" too? In-Reply-To: <01b001cabbcd$82ad5d90$880818b0$@com> References: <01b001cabbcd$82ad5d90$880818b0$@com> Message-ID: <4B9005C3.4040802@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/47e5b1b7/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Std Email Signature RAB 3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 24675 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/47e5b1b7/attachment-0001.jpe From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 11:22:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:22:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <5d9fc.36606054.38c13cab@aol.com> References: <5d9fc.36606054.38c13cab@aol.com> Message-ID: <441A3C82-A16F-4828-8CA0-A638FF691CD6@teleport.com> > > 1 ) I am not a minor, Well, I didn't think you were a minor-- your vocabulary is too large for that, and I didn't notice any Twitterspeak or references to Rap music. ;^) > nuclear physicist, chemist, or astro-physicist, > etc. > 2) I doubt you are Nope. Just a generalist who was engages in reading and thinking. > 3) you refer to "micrometeorites pelting the moon" - if that was > such a > severe problem our satellites and astronauts would be in huge > trouble. It > isn't like rain - lol Micrometeorites constantly grind down the surface of the moon, resulting in a powdery regolith containing microscopic and highly abrasive glass particles. If you saw the space suits in the Smithsonian that were worn on the moon, you noticed that the fabric covering was stained and badly abraded where it came in contact with this abrasive powder. The impact of sunlight lofts a thin haze of this microscopic stuff above the lunar surface, and any movement churns up more of it, meaning any exposed moving parts are going to be susceptible to accelerated wear. In addition to this "sandpapering" effect, the occasional new micrometeorite that comes along might not have the mass to penetrate a spacesuit, but it will ding a glass or resin panel surface... meaning photovoltaics would have to be maintained. > 4) you assume the mining is to be done like mining on earth is done > - I > do not believe that is the case. > The stuff they are after is on the surface not buried. Yes, within the first few feet or meters of the surface, I believe the article said. > The machinery > could travel across the surface processing the ore as it goes > leaving the waste > behind where it had been. Harvesting individual, inert gas molecules that are bound up in dust and gravel is going to require one honkin' big and sophisticated machine, to be mobile. Again, maybe something like the giant gold dredges that chewed through Western river valleys during the early 1900s, only much more complex and self-contained. But, considering the very tiny percentage of helium-3 in the harvested helium, hydrogen, and whatever other gases in the regolith, seems likely there would have to be a fixed location dug underground to house the big separation facility, where the harvest would be delivered via pipeline or pressure tanks. > 5) there are several possible sources of energy in addition to > photovoltaic cells which could be orbited > Hydrogen is one - from water; but that would also require the > photovoltaic > cells > Collectors made of mirrors and lenses for heat... am sure the > scientists > are thinking of more ways. There's always plutonium, too... which would come with its own problems, but with heavy shielding and barring the unlikely direct hit by a fair-sized meteorite, would probably work safely enough on the moon. > > There are articles on the web that discuss this, some tend to lean > in the > direction that the fusion power is not feasible - but they are > ignoring the > guy that demonstrated a method in the 90's. If it worked, they'd be all over it. The "Cold Fusion" disappointment of a couple decades ago comes to mind, when many scientists rushed to reproduce the claimed results, and failed. I do believe that larger- scale fusion will be demonstrated someday. The big question is "containment," and whether they can get more power out than they have to put in. > There are others that stick > to the "it isn't practical or economically feasible" belief. > (Maybe not > today, but in the future, who knows.) Others think of it as Man > leaving Africa. > If we don't go, it will be likely that other countries will be > far ahead > of us. Yep. One more reason to improve our public education system, and make college education MUCH more accessible! We need many more "eletists," not less. > > No one has stated that all the logistics have been solved. Nor > have they > made any statement as to when this power source would be available on > earth. A short article discussing more from both sides: > http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276 Interesting article-- but it is dated 2006, long before NASA got the rug jerked out from under it when President Obama deep-sixed our lunar return program-- one major decision I strongly disagree with. It may be that a manned moon base will simply be too horribly expensive for any one national government to undertake, and so, like the ISS and South Pole research stations, it may be an international effort. Let us hope so. One nation claiming a monopoly on the moon would have obvious military and economic implications. > Mining the moon for helium-3 has been discussed widely in space > circles > and international space conferences. Both China and Russia have > stated their > nations' interest in helium-3. > "We will provide the most reliable report on helium-3 to mankind," > Ouyang > Ziyuan, the chief scientist of China's lunar program, told a Chinese > newspaper. "Whoever first conquers the moon will benefit first." Yep. See above note. > > > Read More > http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2006/12/72276#ixzz0hE2LHsqU Same article, but with useful links. For an older (2005) article on lunar dust, see: http://www.wired.com/science/space/news/2005/04/67110 > In a message dated 3/4/2010 10:55:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > Granted, solar power would be essentially "free" on the moon, if you > don't count the the tremendous photovoltaic infrastructure you'd have > to build to collect, concentrate and deliver it. (Photovoltaic panels > being mostly silica, you might be able to set up a plant > manufacturing those panels on the moon also). And, considering the > micrometeorites pelting the moon, you've have to allow for periodic > maintenance and upkeep of the system. That being done, you've got to > have TREMENDOUS regolith-moving capability, and a place to dump the > vast amounts of "spoil..." maybe a convenient crater that happens to > be right next to the regolith plain you are working. > Due to the long, dark lunar night, the whole system would have to > shut down half the time (batteries large enough to run such a system > are nearly inconceivable). > OK-- jumping ahead over a a lot of other practical considerations-- > say you now have the helium extracted from the regolith. This will be > mostly plain old Helium-4, with a very tiny admixture of the desired > helium-3. A ton of that stuff would, theoretically, power the USA for > one year. The question is, how to extract it? Can't be done > chemically, as helium is inert. The obvious answer seems to be large > banks of high-speed gas centrifuges, like the thousands of > centrifuges the Iranians are building for their "peaceful" atomic > program. Barring building a centrifuge factory on the moon, together > with foundries for smelting the metals and glass, plus precision > machining and electronics workshops, etc., etc., you'd have to ship > most of the finished machinery from Earth. The helium-3, being very > marginally lighter, might be separated off by repeated centrifuging. > The huge amounts of recovered Helium-4 would represent an enormous > investment in refining effort, but I suppose it'd have to be be > vented off, as natural gas is "flared" and wasted at Saudi oil wells. > Pity. If you could prepare vast, helium-tight chambers underground, > maybe you could use some of that solar power to pump them full of > helium-4, thus spinning turbines during the dark hours... > I hope by now you see what I am getting at: ANYBODY can spin huge, > grandiose pipe dreams about unlimited wealth, unlimited power, etc. > But the practical considerations that are always glossed over in > these grand dreams (remember "trickle-down" economics?) will always > demand their pound of flesh. As others have pointed out, Mother > Nature (and Human Nature) don't negotiate. They present their > demands, and they don't give a damn whether you can meet them or > not. If all grand ideas could all be easily and economically > achieved, we'd all be driving Flying Cars by now. It seems we had > best concentrate on dealing pragmatically with the mess we have now, > rather than confidently anticipating that things will "somehow work > out" if we just keep slobbing along. > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Suggestion: Go read what has been discovered about the helium-3 >> and how >> they expect to mine, get it to earth and then use it. Its all >> there on the >> web for you to read. You don't have to go all negative without >> actually >> reading what they are expecting to do. It is REAL - that they are >> going to >> the Moon to 'harvest' helium-3 for the purpose of running power >> plants. >> >> They expect to produce "lots" of 'safe' energy from "very small" >> quantities! My understanding they also expect to do most of the >> refining on the >> Moon whereby they will transport small quantities of the refined >> material to >> earth. With the list of countries saying they are going to the >> Moon to get >> this stuff - there has to be some viability to it. Some of the >> countries >> going after this are Russia, China, Japan, France, England, and >> U.S. [Just >> read the post that someone claims Obama is canceling the Moon >> project. He >> continues to show his ignorance and his desire to destroy the >> U.S.] I >> believe they plan to use the Sun's energy on the Moon to assist >> with the >> refining. >> >> If you do much reading you would find that helium-3 is extremely >> rare on >> earth; while 'relativey speaking' very abundant on the Moon. The >> small >> quantities on the Moon are minable. How much Gold is mined today >> in regards to >> parts per million; or iron or many of the other minerals that we >> process >> large quantities to gain what we are after. Here on earth those >> minerals >> require lots of energy to get the refined product - on the Moon >> the energy to >> refine the ore will essentially be free. >> Please read up on the subject -- and wiki is not the 'do all' for >> answers. >> >> >> In the 90s a guy found that the Moon dust contained 'large >> quantities' >> (figuratively - their wording) of the stuff and that he found a >> way to >> generate electricity with very very small quantities of it. >> I understand that some additional research was needed to be >> able to >> build a power generation plant that would economically generate >> electricity in >> large quantities. I was also left with the idea that it would be >> a 'safer' >> and 'cleaner' fuel than what is currently used in the current >> nuclear >> power plants. >> >> note: the following y'all is used in the Southern manner of >> referring to >> many in a generic sense - not a specific person >> >> Walt - Oh, by the way, my negative slant toward the 'illiterate >> liberals' is nothing different than what y'all do all the time on >> here with the >> negative slant toward conservatives, calling them ignorant, etc. >> There is no >> limit to the number of negative postings on here toward the >> conservatives. >> Often with very prejudiced opinions and repeated rantings (sheep) >> following the biased big 3 news media on TV or other very biased >> news sources. >> The liberals like to claim they are the 'most', the 'we' as in >> majority etc >> while in reality they are often the minority. They can sometimes >> sway >> people to join them in their cause but can never keep them in >> their flock >> because of their Marxist extremism and their know-it-all attitudes >> that are >> frequently incorrect. I have gotten tired of the GroveNet main >> posters chasing >> away most anyone that has an opposing view. I had decided some >> time ago to >> fire back from the other side to get some honest dialog going vs >> the name >> calling and extreme biased attitude that people such as Holly >> typically >> displays. I mention her, as she is recently a very regular poster >> with the >> disgusting prominent name calling without much substance posts. >> To help >> GroveNet, I thought I would start with using some of the liberal >> tactics to >> show the liberal posters what they sound like. I have tried to >> utilize >> some of the tactics used by the liberals that I have seen used on >> here over >> the years. There are conservatives reading GroveNet but most >> won't say >> anything as they know they will be attacked and rediculed. >> GroveNet, for >> the most part, is controlled by a few hard core liberal >> extremists. >> >> I like to get my news and information from many sources and >> realize who is >> writing (saying) what - most any news you hear/read today is >> biased in >> some way and often is what I call creative news. ABC, NBC and CBS >> are the >> best at this. Over the years, they have developed a huge flock of >> chickens >> ready to gobble up their half truths and lies. They are extremely >> good at >> taking things out of context or dropping a word here or there >> that completely >> changes the meaning of what was said by someone. They can grab a >> news >> story from the web (or other source) and blow it up huge. Then a >> couple days >> later when they realize someone suckered them; they often don't >> even bother >> with making any attempt to correct the story. Another sample is >> the many so >> called scientific studies they cover under the guise of health >> reports. >> The reporters can't keep a straight face while making the news >> report about >> some of these so-called health reports/studies that they know are >> bogus. >> Some reporters will even joke that everyone should live by "X" >> until next >> week when an opposing study will be announced. Watch for them - >> the >> Spring thesis rush is coming soon when all the students working on >> Doctorate >> Degrees have to get their reports/ studies turned in. >> Interestingly, I do >> not get my news from Fox, or any of the so called conservative >> talk show >> hosts; but from what I hear about them I probably would like >> listening to some >> of them. I've just never bothered tuning them in. I do watch the >> liberal >> big 3 news channels and read a number of extreme left news sources >> on the >> web and I read random stories on the Net that I find by following >> links while >> I search out the real story behind what is being reported. Oh, I >> also >> read what y'all have to say here on GroveNet. ;) >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/3/2010 10:45:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> OK... interesting. So if we ever perfect a fusion power system >> which >> generates more power than it uses up, helium-3 might be used as a >> fuel. Trouble is, it seems to be incredibly rare, even on the moon. >> Wikipedia notes, "28 ppm of lunar regolith is helium-4 and 0.01 ppm >> is helium-3." That's one part per hundred million. To recover >> one ton >> of helium-3, we'd have to refine more than 100 million tons of >> lunar >> surface-- meaning we'd have to use mining equipment much more >> massive >> and complicated than the huge gold dredges of the early 1900s-- >> meaning we'd have to haul all that hardware to the moon, and even >> then the recovery rate would be miniscule. One wonders if it >> would be >> cheaper to find some way to manufacture helium-3 on Earth. >> >> On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> If you have'rt heard of the new moon race .. for starters try >>> googling >>> >>> energy moon race >>> >>> be sure to use the following in search also >>> >>> moon "helium-3" >>> >>> >>> >>> US expects to return and put a manned base on the moon for mining >>> This is why you have heard talk of looking for water on the moon >>> >>> Many of the countries planning to put basis on the moon expect to >>> be there >>> between 2020 and 2030 >>> >>> To help make the Helium-3 fuel economical I suspect they need to >>> force >>> the carbon fuel expense to jump in price. >>> >>> The main stream news media has ignored reporting on this race >>> I have known about the race for a number of years now... >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 4 11:23:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:23:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust In-Reply-To: <4B8EE368.9000704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1864202858.10688251267730592660.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> But can he run for election from jail???? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:32:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust Unless I read the article wrong, Congressman Rangel has not left Congress just stepped down from being committee chair. Politically it's a smart move. The primary in New York is in September. I went to school for awhile in his district, he is very popular and will have that seat for life. By laying low for a few months, people will forget. Even if he has a challenger in the primary, he'll be able to beat them. If a Republican runs, don't think they'll win, Rangel is just that popular. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Leave of absence != retirement > > He's simply choosing to step out of the spotlight and position of power > while the ethics investigation goes on. It's a completely reasonable (and > admirable) position to take. Sure, he's got dirt on his hands like every > other politician, but in his career he's done loads of good things too. It > will be interesting to see how the investigation shakes out. > > Will you post an email linking to a favorable article should he be cleared > and return to his previous post? > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 11:29:19 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:29:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust In-Reply-To: <1864202858.10688251267730592660.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1864202858.10688251267730592660.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B900A0F.8000005@gmail.com> Remember Mayor Marion Barry from Washington DC? Don't underestimate how much Rangel is loved in his district. I doubt if he will see jail time. Even if he does I wouldn't be surprised if he got written in. Actually write in votes are very difficult in New York City, but the minute he got out of jail............ donkelly wrote: > But can he run for election from jail???? > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Adam Mayer > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:32:08 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] And another bites the dust > > Unless I read the article wrong, Congressman Rangel has not left > Congress just stepped down from being committee chair. Politically it's > a smart move. The primary in New York is in September. I went to > school for awhile in his district, he is very popular and will have that > seat for life. By laying low for a few months, people will forget. > Even if he has a challenger in the primary, he'll be able to beat them. > If a Republican runs, don't think they'll win, Rangel is just that popular. > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: > >> Leave of absence != retirement >> >> He's simply choosing to step out of the spotlight and position of power >> while the ethics investigation goes on. It's a completely reasonable (and >> admirable) position to take. Sure, he's got dirt on his hands like every >> other politician, but in his career he's done loads of good things too. It >> will be interesting to see how the investigation shakes out. >> >> Will you post an email linking to a favorable article should he be cleared >> and return to his previous post? >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 11:33:11 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:33:11 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> You might disagree, but history regards it as part of the early 20th century progressive movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenetics http://www.emily-schaeffer.com/uploads/Eugenics_and_Economics_in_the_Progressive_Era_-_JEP_-_Leonard.pdf and others here http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=eugenics+progressive+movement&aq=4&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=eugenics+pro&fp=c5aa4278f68e4a4 Walt Wentz wrote: > Would you call eugenics "progressive?" Actually, it was a > totalitarian vision that was cooked up in the 1890s, and was pretty > well rejected everywhere except Nazi Germany as an affront to human > liberty... as is racism, and oligarchy, and religious exceptionalism, > and the neo-Darwinian economic fantasies peddled by some far-right > types. > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Yep a brave new world from the progressives, the same people who >> brought >> us eugenics. >> >> Count me out. >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Actually, seems the progressives have been trying to rewrite the >>> future-- from the good ol' oligarchic theocracy dreamed of by the >>> neocons to a more democratic vision... >>> "hat's why they call them "progressives," not "regressives"... >>> >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> As the progressives have been rewriting history for a number of >>>> years now? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/4/2010 3:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> WMD does include chemical weapons. And Sadam did use the >>>> materials he >>>> acquired from the United States to build WMD or WMD programs. >>>> Sadam did use >>>> chemical weapons against the Kurds. All of that was with the >>>> blessing of >>>> United States President Ronald Reagan and government officials >>>> Donald >>>> Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. >>>> >>>> After the first Iraq war the programs ended. >>>> >>>> When the U.S. invaded Iraq, the Bush Administration spent similar >>>> effort >>>> to find the WMD, protect the munition stockpiles, and find the MIA/ >>>> POW from >>>> the first Iraq war. That is, they made essentially NO effort. >>>> Because >>>> they didn't bring in enough troops to do the job. They also >>>> didn't plan to >>>> provide for the needs of the citizens of Iraq. They did do some >>>> planning. >>>> They planned to take over the resources of Iraq, and turn the >>>> economy over >>>> to friendly companies. >>>> >>>> And Rove is not above rewriting history to protect his interests. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:50 AM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> He will probably say that poison gas is a WMD. >>>>> And since Sadam killed 5000 or so people with his gas, whom is to >>>>> say >>>>> >>>>> >>>> different. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Unless one thinks that only nuclear bombs rate the WMD label. >>>>> Curious in the very least. >>>>> donkelly >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 11:57:28 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:57:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/28757501/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 12:15:10 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:15:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More tinfoil hat revelations Message-ID: <4B9014CE.2000202@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/98e3eb74/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: eSkeptic-logo-2009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 34800 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/98e3eb74/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HAARP-cover-detail.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46845 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/98e3eb74/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: minithologo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3200 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/054a14ae/attachment-0001.jpg From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 12:35:13 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:35:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And now the bad news . . . Message-ID: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/144b9223/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 73 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/144b9223/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 12:48:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:48:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And now the bad news . . . In-Reply-To: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> References: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Maybe Chubbiness is next to Godliness? Or maybe these people are more obese simply because they DON'T smoke? On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Religion, spirituality not associated with better cardiovascular > health > > February 4, 2010 | Michael O'Riordan > > Chicago, IL - Increased religious involvement, including more > frequent prayer and meditation, is not associated with an improved > cardiovascular risk profile or reduced cardiovascular disease > events, a new study shows [1]. The findings do not support past > studies suggesting better overall health among the more religious > and in fact showed that greater religiosity was linked with higher > levels of obesity, report investigators. > > "I think we were a little surprised, honestly, because we expected > to see, if anything, a little bit of a protective effect," said > senior investigator Dr Donald Lloyd-Jones (Northwestern University > Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago, IL). "I would caution a > little bit about the events data because it was only about four > years of follow-up. It's a relatively short-term study, and we > should revisit it when more time has passed. But if you look at the > estimates, if anything, people with the highest religious > participation and spirituality actually had a few more events, and > even though it wasn't statistically significant, it was in the > wrong direction. It might take quite a bit to turn that around. We > certainly didn't see any signal that this was protective, but > neither could we say that it was risky." > > The study is published online January 25, 2010 in Circulation. > > Improved overall health among religious and spiritual > > Speaking with heartwire, Lloyd-Jones said that religious > involvement has been consistently associated with improved health > habits and outcomes, with different studies showing lower smoking > and mortality rates among people who attend religious services > frequently. Overall, self-reported health is better among the > religious, and some smaller investigations have hinted that greater > religiosity is associated with improved cardiovascular morbidity > and mortality. > > "In general, from the perspective of overall health, healthcare > utilization, and outcomes, the suggestion has been from some of the > studies that greater religiosity, in terms of participation or > spirituality, is typically associated with better health outcomes," > he said. "It hasn't been particularly well studied with regard to > cardiovascular disease or in relation to the whole spectrum of > cardiovascular disease risk factors and atherosclerosis. Also, the > way religiosity has been measured in the past has not necessarily > captured all the dimensions that might be of interest." > > To heartwire, Lloyd-Jones said this study, a retrospective analysis > of the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis (MESA), originated 18 > months ago, when lead author Matthew Feinstein, then a first-year > medical student, approached him about investigating links between > religious involvement, spirituality, and prayer/meditation and > cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. Feinstein, who is still a > student at the Feinberg School of Medicine, had researched a > similar topic for his college thesis. > > "Our hypothesis going in was that we suspected religiosity might in > fact be associated with somewhat better outcomes, that it might be > a generally healthier population, or that there might something > about spirituality itself that would potentially lead to better > health profiles," said Lloyd-Jones. > > MESA: A rich data set > > In the MESA cohort, which included 5474 white, black, Hispanic, and > Chinese participants aged 45 to 84 years old, religiosity was based > on participant responses to a questionnaire and was defined by > three dimensions: frequency of religious participation, frequency > of prayer and meditation, and spirituality. The Daily Spiritual > Experiences Scale, a five-item scale designed to assess feelings of > closeness to God or the transcendent and experiences that grow out > of that closeness, was used to measure spirituality. > > Overall, there was no consistent association between measures of > religiosity and the presence of subclinical cardiovascular disease > as measured by various tests, including coronary artery calcium > measurements, carotid intima-media thickness scans, left- > ventricular mass assessments, and ankle-brachial-index > measurements. Similarly, there was no association between > religiosity and cardiovascular disease events at four years. > > There was, however, a consistent and significant association > between religiosity and obesity. After adjustment for different > variables, those who attended frequent religious services were more > likely to be obese and less likely to smoke. Also, those with the > highest levels of spirituality were significantly more likely to be > obese and less likely to smoke. There were no other associations > observed between religiosity, spirituality, and other risk factors > such as diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, and diabetes. > > Odds ratio for smoking and obesity by frequency of religious practice > > Frequency of religious practice/risk factor > > Never attend (n=1032) > > 1 or 2 times per year (n=1048) > > Monthly (n=564) > > Weekly (n=2367) > > Daily (n=463) > > Current smoking > > Referent > > 0.97 (0.74-1.26) > > 0.87 (0.63-1.19) > > 0.45 (0.34-0.58) > > 0.39 (0.26-0.58) > > Obesity > > Referent > > 1.39 (1.16-1.72) > > 1.43 (1.11-1.83) > > 1.62 (1.33-1.96) > > 1.57 (1.12-1.72) > > Odds ratio for smoking and obesity by feelings of spirituality > > Feelings of spirituality/risk factor > > Never (n=279) > > Low (n=1306) > > Moderate (n=911) > > High (n=2978) > > Current smoking > > Referent > > 0.68 (0.45-1.01) > > 0.67 (0.44-1.00) > > 0.38 (0.26-0.58) > > Obesity > > Referent > > 1.23 (0.86-1.77) > > 1.33 (0.92-1.92) > > 1.53 (1.08-2.12) > > "The obesity story is interesting, and we tried a lot of different > ways to get it to go away?looking at social, demographic, and > psychosocial factors?and really didn't see any clear explanation > for it," said Lloyd-Jones. "So we're left with this observation, > and we're not really sure what's the cart and what's the horse. We > don't really know if there is something about religious > participation that leads to obesity, or if it's the other way > around, and that heavier people might seek out religious and > spiritual experiences because of things like stigmatization." > > One of the strengths of the study is that it is more representative > of different ethnicities, as well as men and women, than previous > studies. However, more research still needs to be done, said Lloyd- > Jones, adding that his group is currently conducting a long-term > prospective study of religious involvement, spirituality, and > cardiovascular risk factors and events. He said that they hope that > this study will be able to better explain the association between > obesity and religiosity. In the meantime, he said, these data are > not likely to alter clinical practice. > > "Certainly, as physicians, we don't want to discourage anything > that's likely to be of support or is going to make a patient feel > better," he said. "These data don't provide a clear indication one > way or the other about whether we should make recommendations with > regard to cardiovascular health. But these are very interesting > data, and we'll have to learn a little bit more about them in the > research realm before we can make recommendations." > > Source > > Feinstein M, Liu K, Ning H, et al. Burden of cardiovascular risk > factors, subclinical atherosclerosis, and incident cardiovascular > events across dimensions of religiosity: the Multi-Ethnic Study of > Atherosclerosis. Circulation 2010; 121:659-666. > > > Related links > > Poetry, prayers, and pranayama: A low-tech therapy for heart failure > [Heart failure > Heart failure; Sep 13, 2006] > Is anybody listening? Power of prayer questioned in the STEP trial > [heartwire > News; Mar 31, 2006] > MANTRA II: No proven advantage for prayer or noetic therapy, some > benefits still possible > [heartwire > News; Jul 15, 2005] > Prayer plus PCI may improve short-term outcomes > [heartwire > News; Nov 01, 2001] > > Copyright ?1999-2010 theheart.org by WebMD. All rights reserved. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 13:43:00 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:43:00 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> Charles Davenport a prominent leader and driving force behind eugenics in America, saw himself as a progressive reformer. http://www2.facinghistory.org/Campus/rm.nsf/0/30BBE3AFC85E482985256FFC0061A8AB But I could be wrong. If progressive doctors pushed for eugenics, that doesn't mean that progressives supported eugenics, except for the progressives who did. Adam Bob Browning wrote: > Sorry, Adam, but I don't read your cites the same as you do. > > Adam - > > 1. Because some progressives supported the wildly connotative > "eugenics" does not by itself constitute support for eugenics as many > now think of eugenics, i.e., in conjunction with Nazi genocide, by all > or even a significant number of "Progressives". > > *http://tinyurl.com/yz7srgs* > > 2. Because eugenics was a broad topic of discussion during the so > called "Progressive Era" does not make eugenics part of the > Progressive Movement. > > *http://tinyurl.com/yjrpyos* > > 3. I have looked at a number of your google cites and it appears to me > that the ones that seem to best support your view have a tendency to > fall into what I call the "tinfoil hat" set. > > *http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html* > > Oh, well, you are now free to get up and move around the country. > > bob "big p Progressive" browning > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > On 3/4/2010 11:33 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> You might disagree, but history regards it as part of the early 20th >> century progressive movement: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenetics >> >> http://www.emily-schaeffer.com/uploads/Eugenics_and_Economics_in_the_Progressive_Era_-_JEP_-_Leonard.pdf >> >> and others here >> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=eugenics+progressive+movement&aq=4&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=eugenics+pro&fp=c5aa4278f68e4a4 >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 13:42:42 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:42:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And now the bad news . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:48 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Maybe Chubbiness is next to Godliness? The "Buddha Principle"? David From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 14:02:10 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:02:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And now the bad news . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4B902DE2.9050301@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/fac4ce7a/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 14:04:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:04:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> Message-ID: That website had bios for Herbert Spenser, who is credited with the term "survival of the fittest". He really doesn't sound very progressive, rather he comes across as "old money" or at best "capitalist". Francis Galton was labeled as the founder of the eugenics movement, and it says that he was attracted to Social Darwinism, which justified social inequity. Not a real "progressive" ideal. Harry Laughlin was listed as receiving an honorary degree from the Nazis for his work in eugenics. Despite the name National Socialist Party, the Nazi regime was not socialist, nor was it "progressive". Lewis Terman was listed as the creator of IQ testing, and that he believed that IQ was race dependent. I don't see how that fits with the equality principles usually associated with progressives. W.E.B. DuBois was listed as a dissenter, because of his push for fundamental changes in American Society and that he helped lay the groundwork for the modern civil rights movement. Which is consistent with the modern "progressive" label. All in all, the information on the provided web site, appears to support the position that "progressives" and "eugenics" were not closely linked. It does appear that race bias is closely related to eugenics. It does appear that breeding programs are linked to eugenics. It does appear that supporters of eugenics did support immigration restrictions directed at non-Anglo Saxon, non-Nordic, non-Aryan people. Today's version of that group may well be the White Supremacy movement, which is quite distinct from the progressive movement. David On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Charles Davenport a prominent leader and driving force behind eugenics > in America, saw himself as a progressive reformer. > > http://www2.facinghistory.org/Campus/rm.nsf/0/30BBE3AFC85E482985256FFC0061A8AB > > But I could be wrong. If progressive doctors pushed for eugenics, that > doesn't mean that progressives supported eugenics, except for the > progressives who did. > > Adam From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 4 15:09:00 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:09:00 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D528FE3F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Small correction: Herbert Spencer. The other Spenser, Edmund, was a poet from the Elizabethan age who wrote "The Fairie Queene." Not to be confused. I'm from Virginia. This state was a "leader" in "eugenics" for quite some time. The state's particular approach to this was via sterilization--mainly of black males...which lasted well into the 20th century. Virginia is not known as "progressive" in the current usage. This legacy is one of lasting shame for the Old Dominion state. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 2:04 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake That website had bios for Herbert Spenser, who is credited with the term "survival of the fittest". He really doesn't sound very progressive, rather he comes across as "old money" or at best "capitalist". Francis Galton was labeled as the founder of the eugenics movement, and it says that he was attracted to Social Darwinism, which justified social inequity. Not a real "progressive" ideal. Harry Laughlin was listed as receiving an honorary degree from the Nazis for his work in eugenics. Despite the name National Socialist Party, the Nazi regime was not socialist, nor was it "progressive". Lewis Terman was listed as the creator of IQ testing, and that he believed that IQ was race dependent. I don't see how that fits with the equality principles usually associated with progressives. W.E.B. DuBois was listed as a dissenter, because of his push for fundamental changes in American Society and that he helped lay the groundwork for the modern civil rights movement. Which is consistent with the modern "progressive" label. All in all, the information on the provided web site, appears to support the position that "progressives" and "eugenics" were not closely linked. It does appear that race bias is closely related to eugenics. It does appear that breeding programs are linked to eugenics. It does appear that supporters of eugenics did support immigration restrictions directed at non-Anglo Saxon, non-Nordic, non-Aryan people. Today's version of that group may well be the White Supremacy movement, which is quite distinct from the progressive movement. David On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Charles Davenport a prominent leader and driving force behind eugenics > in America, saw himself as a progressive reformer. > > http://www2.facinghistory.org/Campus/rm.nsf/0/30BBE3AFC85E482985256FFC0061A8AB > > But I could be wrong. If progressive doctors pushed for eugenics, that > doesn't mean that progressives supported eugenics, except for the > progressives who did. > > Adam _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 15:43:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:43:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] And now the bad news . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B901981.1080709@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <866E0A2E-B9B3-418F-B5ED-483A563667A6@teleport.com> Well, Budddha was not overly chubby... but Ho-Tei, the tubby little God of Fortune you see in Chinese stores, certainly is. On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:42 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:48 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Maybe Chubbiness is next to Godliness? > > The "Buddha Principle"? > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 4 16:32:41 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:32:41 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, we're not paranoid . . . . Message-ID: <4B905129.4040507@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100304/1158e9f0/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/1158e9f0/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rnc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21424 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100304/1158e9f0/attachment-0001.jpg From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 16:45:25 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:45:25 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race Message-ID: <7f4e9.3967fc23.38c1ae25@aol.com> LOL correction: miner I make many typos because I touch type with one hand; therefore, I use spell check heavily to make corrections. That one slipped by me when I obviously selected the wrong word in my haste - may have been just a slight mouse movement of the mouse that made the improper selection of the word below miner and then I did not proof read accurately. If you were to read my text prior to spell check you would have trouble reading what I type. Typically, I correct my errors followed with multiple proof-readings. Me Bad - I know better. Too bad that teachers don't care if the students learn proper grammar. This is very apparent by all the bad grammar you see on the net and more importantly by the news media. Everyone seems to get dependent on the technology today for various reasons. As for a minor, my son has a better vocabulary than I. In the 3rd Grade, he was tested and found to have a vocabulary greater than the grade he is in today in high school. He has been using college level words for years. [The testers quit testing at 10th grade. They claimed they tired of the testing and felt they had gone far enough. - More likely, he was getting into vocabulary they did not understand. LOL - On the serious side, they failed to provide him with a proper challenging educational environment. They claimed they did not have a program that would be appropriate for him. The TAG program in grade school was beneath him. I have to wonder why they didn't let him attend middle school or even high school part of the day.] The only problem I notice with his vocabulary today is that it is laced with net-speak and gamer-speak. The Grouch In a message dated 3/4/2010 2:23:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: > > 1 ) I am not a minor, Well, I didn't think you were a minor-- your vocabulary is too large for that, and I didn't notice any Twitterspeak or references to Rap music. ;^) From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:13:31 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 18:13:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9068CB.4050008@gmail.com> And it does list other notable progressives like Irving Fisher, Charlotte Perkins Gilliam, Margaret Sanger and President Teddy Roosevelt. Not everyone who supported eugenics was a progressive, but there are a considerable amount of them and understandable so. Progressivism focused on the need for efficiency in all areas of society and eugenics falls in line with that thinking. Just like prohibition, it was pushed mainly by the WCTU, but there were progressives deeply involved as well. By the way, it can be argued that the Nazi regime in Germany was socialist. Government controlled the economy, people had little freedom and when you were considered a danger to society you were sent to prison. Sounds like socialism to me. Adam David Morelli wrote: > That website had bios for Herbert Spenser, who is credited with the term "survival of the fittest". He really doesn't sound very progressive, rather he comes across as "old money" or at best "capitalist". > > Francis Galton was labeled as the founder of the eugenics movement, and it says that he was attracted to Social Darwinism, which justified social inequity. Not a real "progressive" ideal. > > Harry Laughlin was listed as receiving an honorary degree from the Nazis for his work in eugenics. Despite the name National Socialist Party, the Nazi regime was not socialist, nor was it "progressive". > > Lewis Terman was listed as the creator of IQ testing, and that he believed that IQ was race dependent. I don't see how that fits with the equality principles usually associated with progressives. > > W.E.B. DuBois was listed as a dissenter, because of his push for fundamental changes in American Society and that he helped lay the groundwork for the modern civil rights movement. Which is consistent with the modern "progressive" label. > > All in all, the information on the provided web site, appears to support the position that "progressives" and "eugenics" were not closely linked. > > It does appear that race bias is closely related to eugenics. It does appear that breeding programs are linked to eugenics. It does appear that supporters of eugenics did support immigration restrictions directed at non-Anglo Saxon, non-Nordic, non-Aryan people. Today's version of that group may well be the White Supremacy movement, which is quite distinct from the progressive movement. > > David > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Charles Davenport a prominent leader and driving force behind eugenics >> in America, saw himself as a progressive reformer. >> >> http://www2.facinghistory.org/Campus/rm.nsf/0/30BBE3AFC85E482985256FFC0061A8AB >> >> But I could be wrong. If progressive doctors pushed for eugenics, that >> doesn't mean that progressives supported eugenics, except for the >> progressives who did. >> >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 19:17:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:17:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <7f4e9.3967fc23.38c1ae25@aol.com> References: <7f4e9.3967fc23.38c1ae25@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > LOL correction: miner > > I make many typos because I touch type with one hand; therefore, I use > spell check heavily to make corrections. That one slipped by me > when I > obviously selected the wrong word in my haste - may have been just > a slight mouse > movement of the mouse that made the improper selection of the word > below > miner and then I did not proof read accurately. If you were to > read my text > prior to spell check you would have trouble reading what I type. > Typically, I correct my errors followed with multiple proof- > readings. Me Bad - I > know better. As I get older, I actually forget how to spell some seldom-used words, like "liaison," and have to rely on spellcheck also. The results are sometimes embarrassing. As a former magazine editor, I find it particularly annoying. > > Too bad that teachers don't care if the students learn proper > grammar. > This is very apparent by all the bad grammar you see on the net > and more > importantly by the news media. Everyone seems to get dependent on > the > technology today for various reasons. People have just got to be taught to read... and to enjoy reading... as early as possible! There is no other way of passing on the language in a usable form. It makes me cringe to hear the sort of semi-literate blathering you get on television talk shows and such. The popular media (and the politicians) seem to be shooting for the lowest common denominator. > > As for a minor, my son has a better vocabulary than I. In the 3rd > Grade, > he was tested and found to have a vocabulary greater than the grade > he is > in today in high school. He has been using college level words > for years. > [The testers quit testing at 10th grade. They claimed they tired > of the > testing and felt they had gone far enough. - More likely, he was > getting into > vocabulary they did not understand. Great! He gives indications of a curious and hungry mind. > LOL - On the serious side, they failed > to provide him with a proper challenging educational environment. > They > claimed they did not have a program that would be appropriate for > him. The TAG > program in grade school was beneath him. I have to wonder why they > didn't > let him attend middle school or even high school part of the day.] That's terrible. A highly intelligent kid shouldn't be held back just because it doesn't suit the convenience of administrators. I've often thought we ought to follow the European model of schooling, in which kids are tested, interviewed and channeled into technical, trade or advanced schools according to their abilities and desires. Shoehorning everyone into a one-size-fits-all mold isn't doing anything for our nation's future. Some of the brightest kids I knew in high school were failures later in life because they didn't get the direction or support they needed. And this was back in the stone age, too, when we still had relatively small classes. About all I could suggest would be introducing him to as many concepts and disciplines as possible, and always having lots of varied books in the house... I'll always be grateful that my small- town grade school had the most incredible hodgepodge of old books in its libraries when I attended. I think I was the only kid to read some of them in decades. > The only > problem I notice with his vocabulary today is that it is laced with > net-speak and gamer-speak. Well, that will pass as the current fads peak and die off. No young person would be caught dead speaking yesterday's slang. Of course, he will be constantly updating to the NEW "in" slang... ;^) > > Well, I didn't think you were a minor-- your vocabulary is too large > for that, and I didn't notice any Twitterspeak or references to Rap > music. ;^) > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 19:32:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:32:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B9068CB.4050008@gmail.com> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> <4B9068CB.4050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F6F6DD3-ECE4-4760-9170-B00EBC019D05@verizon.net> On Mar 4, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > And it does list other notable progressives like Irving Fisher, Charlotte Perkins Gilliam, Margaret Sanger and President Teddy Roosevelt. True, but I was trying to restrain my response to information contained on the web site as provided. That would allow for some consistency in the author's bias. > > Not everyone who supported eugenics was a progressive, but there are a considerable amount of them and understandable so. Progressivism focused on the need for efficiency in all areas of society and eugenics falls in line with that thinking. Just like prohibition, it was pushed mainly by the WCTU, but there were progressives deeply involved as well. Given that definition of "progressive", it would not apply at all to those who are "Progressives" in this century. Perhaps something to distinguish the two groups would be appropriate? > By the way, it can be argued that the Nazi regime in Germany was socialist. Government controlled the economy, people had little freedom and when you were considered a danger to society you were sent to prison. Sounds like socialism to me. > > Adam I understand that Socialism is generally distinguished by government ownership or control over certain resources and certain social programs while leaving some or most of the means of production in private hands. I suggest that the industrialists of Germany controlled all of the economy. The industrialists worked in concert with the Nazi government for certain, but that can also be said of the General Dynamics, Boeing, Exxon, Halliburton, and other large members of the "military-industrial" complex in our country. If "socialism" is applied to all governments where the government and the economy are controlled by members of the corporate elite, and where the government was ruthless in treatment of dissent, then most of the dictatorships in Latin America would fit that definition. That "waters down" the meaning to the level that makes it meaningless. China would qualify as socialist under both or our definitions. But, where is Sweden? I feel it is absolutely socialist, even though the population is allowed full freedom. David From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 20:00:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:00:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, we're not paranoid . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B905129.4040507@jurislex.com> References: <4B905129.4040507@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <7BA58F8E-1558-42FB-BB9C-A3BAA0EB71C0@teleport.com> And ain't it just the icing on the cake that some idiot in their own gang will accidentally spill the beans every time? With "enemies" like these, who needs friends? ;^) WW On Mar 4, 2010, at 4:32 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Hey, we're not paranoid, they really are picking on us ! ! ! > > bob "Ho-Tai" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > Leaked documents reveal GOP plan to use scare tactics to raise money > National GOP leaders are doing damage control today after a > Politico scoop lifted the curtain on the party's plan to tap > voters' "fear" in the coming campaign season. The PR problem > started when an absent-minded attendee at the Republican National > Committee (RNC) confab on February 18 in Boca Grande, Florida, left > a 72-page document from its 2010 strategizing session in a hotel > room. Today, Politico reporter Ben Smith's expose is making headlines. > > The memo tracks the fundraising presentation that RNC Finance > Director Rob Bickhart delivered to the RNC's $2,500-a-head annual > retreat. The best path to victory in 2010, the document advises, is > for Republican candidates to depict themselves as the best hope for > resisting the "trending toward socialism" taking shape in a > Democrat-dominated Washington. > > And the document doesn't shy from making its points graphically. > MSNBC showed the images this morning on "Morning Joe": > > > > The presentation portrays the Obama administration as "The Evil > Empire," including the now-infamous image of President Obama made > over in the makeup Heath Ledger used in his performance as the > Joker in the 2008 Batman movie "The Dark Knight." House Speaker > Nancy Pelosi appears as Cruella De Vil from "101 Dalmatians," and > Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is the witless cartoon dog Scooby- > Doo. The memo candidly confirms that the aim of such caricature is > to amp up "fear" among the GOP's conservative base. The memo also > makes fun of major RNC donors, categorizing some as "ego-driven" > and easily pacified with "tchochkes" (a Slavic word for toys). > > The embrace of harsh rhetoric and the swipes at the large donor set > seem to signal the GOP establishment's growing comfort with > employing tactics associated with the activist Tea Party movement? > and with plying Tea Party sympathizers for cash. Of course, it > isn't unusual for parties out of power to court controversy and > play with fire to rile up donors and grass-roots activists. The RNC > has caught heat for fundraising tactics in the past, most recently > when it was caught sending out fake census forms to raise money. > And Democrats have shown a demagogic streak in the past, depicting > George W. Bush and Dick Cheney as Bond-like supervillains and > playing up alleged GOP plans to kill Social Security to rally > voters behind a popular entitlement program. > > When asked by Yahoo! News if the leaked presentation reflects a > coordinated effort to appeal more to the Tea Party movement, RNC > spokesman Doug Heye replied that the group's chairman, Michael > Steele, "was recently invited by Tea Party activists to a meeting, > which he was happy to do. Following the meeting, it was clear those > in the meeting shared a common goal: stopping the Obama/Pelosi/Reid > agenda." As for plans to further that alliance with the > inflammatory material in the memo, Heye reiterated what he'd told > Politico earlier: "The language and the imagery will not be used in > any capacity in the future." > > There's no question that the Obama-as-Joker image?long a familiar > icon at Tea Party rallies?is a toxic association for the GOP > establishment. Oddly enough, though, that image's origins can be > traced to the activist left. As revealed by the Los Angeles Times > last year, the image was created by a supporter of Rep. Dennis > Kucinich, a University of Illinois student named Firas Alkhateeb, > who told the Times that he uploaded the photo onto his Flickr page, > and a conservative activist promptly snatched it up. > > Such are the odd convergences of movement politics. However, the > RNC may have more trouble distancing itself from the equation of > Democratic policy with socialism, however, since Michael Steele is > credited with originating that meme in the health care debate. > > ? Brett Michael Dykes is a contributor to the Yahoo! News blog. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 20:04:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:04:33 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4F6F6DD3-ECE4-4760-9170-B00EBC019D05@verizon.net> References: <4987a.1ac7e55f.38c0c31d@aol.com> <44299D24-31CA-4175-92A8-140D5E1D30F7@teleport.com> <4B8FD400.5090006@gmail.com> <4B900AF7.4070203@gmail.com> <4B9010A8.5090807@jurislex.com> <4B902964.2040503@gmail.com> <4B9068CB.4050008@gmail.com> <4F6F6DD3-ECE4-4760-9170-B00EBC019D05@verizon.net> Message-ID: I think a corporate/dictatorship alliance might best be termed fascism. The "National Socialist Workers Party" was not socialist, not directed by the workers, and most certainly was no party anyone would want to attend, particularly in its last years. WW On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:32 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> And it does list other notable progressives like Irving Fisher, >> Charlotte Perkins Gilliam, Margaret Sanger and President Teddy >> Roosevelt. > > True, but I was trying to restrain my response to information > contained on the web site as provided. That would allow for some > consistency in the author's bias. >> >> Not everyone who supported eugenics was a progressive, but there >> are a considerable amount of them and understandable so. >> Progressivism focused on the need for efficiency in all areas of >> society and eugenics falls in line with that thinking. Just like >> prohibition, it was pushed mainly by the WCTU, but there were >> progressives deeply involved as well. > > Given that definition of "progressive", it would not apply at all > to those who are "Progressives" in this century. Perhaps something > to distinguish the two groups would be appropriate? > >> By the way, it can be argued that the Nazi regime in Germany was >> socialist. Government controlled the economy, people had little >> freedom and when you were considered a danger to society you were >> sent to prison. Sounds like socialism to me. >> >> Adam > > I understand that Socialism is generally distinguished by > government ownership or control over certain resources and certain > social programs while leaving some or most of the means of > production in private hands. I suggest that the industrialists of > Germany controlled all of the economy. The industrialists worked > in concert with the Nazi government for certain, but that can also > be said of the General Dynamics, Boeing, Exxon, Halliburton, and > other large members of the "military-industrial" complex in our > country. > > If "socialism" is applied to all governments where the government > and the economy are controlled by members of the corporate elite, > and where the government was ruthless in treatment of dissent, then > most of the dictatorships in Latin America would fit that > definition. That "waters down" the meaning to the level that makes > it meaningless. > > China would qualify as socialist under both or our definitions. > But, where is Sweden? I feel it is absolutely socialist, even > though the population is allowed full freedom. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 20:37:21 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:37:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Mayor to honor local woman 3/8 In-Reply-To: <250458.10450.qm@web55604.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <250458.10450.qm@web55604.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeah Lorely! She is a great person. Katie On Mar 4, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Alana Graham wrote: > Mayor Pete Truax will present a proclamation in honor of Women's > History Month, which will be received by Pacific's Center for > Gender Equity (CGE). CGE has selected DR. LORELY FRENCH as their > honoree for Women's History Month, 2010. > > Date: Monday, March 8 > Time: 7:00 pm > Place: Community Auditorium, 1915 Main Street, Forest Grove. > > All Welcome. > > > > > Congrats to Lorely! > > Alana > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Thu Mar 4 21:08:38 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 23:08:38 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <7f4e9.3967fc23.38c1ae25@aol.com> Message-ID: On 3/4/10 6:45 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > Too bad that teachers don't care if the students learn proper grammar. Teacher do care! But caring that a student gets the lesson is as likely to be successful as writing on Grovenet is likely to change a mind. It is not because the writers do not "care". Additionally, some of the things we old folks complain about are really the result of the language changing...a thing that has happened since language began. And probably the old folks then complained because some of those idiot children said "Grunt" instead of "Grunt-grunt" then too. Probably their teachers didn't care either. Kristy From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 22:03:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:03:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <49815.189f58b2.38c0c298@aol.com> References: <49815.189f58b2.38c0c298@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:00 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > As for the Tonnage - not all of it went to the ocean bottom. US Coast Guard does not have authority over there! LOL more twisting of facts If the Administration needs an excuse for the Coast Guard to board a vessel dumping materials on the high seas, there is legal cover. Please refer to the "International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships" 73/78(MARPOL) which regulates discharges of wastes and solid materials from ships at sea and in coastal waters, which is an authority delegated to the US Coast Guard by Congress in "The Act to Prevent Pollution from Ships", "The Hazardous Material Transportation Act", and by International Law. > 100 million Tons is an estimate of an unknown quantity - the number was obviously stated large or may have been misquoted by a reporter that jotted down a huge number. More likely between the speaker doing wildly guessing at the amount and the writer booting he number higher we get the 100 million. Either Shaw did estimate that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions, or he didn't. 100 million tons is obviously wrong. Either Shaw is rock stupid or Ken Timmerman is incapable of delivering the real story. In either case, why give an credence to any part of it? As a follow up. The web site for intelligencesummit.org does not publish the information referenced in that original article about a summit on Feb 17, 2006. The first information comes from the Ken Timmerman article. Then a reference to both Shaw, Timmerman, and the Summit by Ryan Mauro. http://www.worldthreats.com/?m=200602 The intelligence summit web site does provide reference to a followup article entitled "Iraqi WMD mystery solved" about this topic two weeks later, 3/3/2006, by Ryan Mauro. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=536 It repeats some of the Timmerman statements, but reduces the scope of the materials dramatically. And traced the information to Ukraine sources. The Mauro interview and Shaw article claim that some of the munitions were moved to the Bekaa Valley of Lebanon. Israel sends teams into that area. For example, two went public five months after the Mauro interview. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5268870.stm http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/03/world/fg-baalbek3 A hundred tons of guns hauled to Hezbollah in Lebanon, maybe. WMD? no way. > The US did not find out that everything had been removed until well after we had invaded and had committed ourselves. The article specifically said that the speaker was aware of the removal prior to the invasion. And that it HAD been communicated to the Administration. > You are taking statements and twisting and rewording what was said in the article to fit your desired conclusion! I use "cut and paste" to copy the quotes. They were sufficiently outlandish on their own merit, I didn't need to twist or reword anything. > > The Grouch From christianamayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 22:08:19 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 22:08:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore Message-ID: The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an honorary doctorate degree to Al Gore for his ?visionary leadership.? My dictionary defines ?visionary? as ?Not founded on fact; imaginary?; as well as ?Affected by or tending toward fantasies.? - Courtesy LewRockwell.com -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 22:09:12 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 01:09:12 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race Message-ID: <8ba0c.687515f4.38c1fa08@aol.com> You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so abundant today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? The Grouch In a message dated 3/5/2010 12:09:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hannah at teleport.com writes: On 3/4/10 6:45 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > Too bad that teachers don't care if the students learn proper grammar. Teacher do care! But caring that a student gets the lesson is as likely to be successful as writing on Grovenet is likely to change a mind. It is not because the writers do not "care". Additionally, some of the things we old folks complain about are really the result of the language changing...a thing that has happened since language began. And probably the old folks then complained because some of those idiot children said "Grunt" instead of "Grunt-grunt" then too. Probably their teachers didn't care either. Kristy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 4 22:09:51 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 01:09:51 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore Message-ID: <8ba37.6d378e41.38c1fa2f@aol.com> LOL - good one! In a message dated 3/5/2010 1:09:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, christianamayer at gmail.com writes: The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an honorary doctorate degree to Al Gore for his ?visionary leadership.? My dictionary defines ?visionary? as ?Not founded on fact; imaginary?; as well as ?Affected by or tending toward fantasies.? - Courtesy LewRockwell.com -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Mar 4 22:32:04 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 22:32:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021901cabc2d$9497b180$bdc71480$@com> > From: Christiana Mayer > > [...] My dictionary defines "visionary" as "Not founded > on fact; imaginary"; as well as "Affected by or tending > toward fantasies." Ol' Lew should have kept reading because the very next definition is the one being used: "one having unusual foresight and imagination" That sort of funny just ends up backfiring and making you look like you didn't do your research. ;) From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 4 22:44:47 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 06:44:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1227862860.10940911267771487143.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Does that statement mean that Big Al is somewhere in between? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Christiana Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 06:08:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an honorary doctorate degree to Al Gore for his ?visionary leadership.? My dictionary defines ?visionary? as ?Not founded on fact; imaginary?; as well as ?Affected by or tending toward fantasies.? - Courtesy LewRockwell.com -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 23:08:58 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 23:08:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] occupation by China? In-Reply-To: <576a2.4a716b42.38c129c8@aol.com> References: <576a2.4a716b42.38c129c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <37A700DF-9B1F-4091-B7A0-7CB2F897F2D1@verizon.net> Okay, so I read the whole thing. It reads like it was written to anger Americans, rather than to inform or motivate Chinese Communists. Does it make me fear Chinese? I am not afraid of a Chinese Minister of Defense who says "Our reform and opening to the outside world still rely on their capital and technology, we still need America." We are borrowing their capital. The writer is ignorant of the means that will bring America under China's thumb. The writer is ignorant of the logistical nightmare of moving 500 million Chinese to the American continent. The writer is ignorant of the push to take back the one time Chinese territories in Northern India, Western Asia, Siberia. David On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:20 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > an article discussing the speach I referred to and includes a copy of the > speech is found below... From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 4 23:24:20 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 23:24:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4989b.49d4e405.38c0c349@aol.com> References: <4989b.49d4e405.38c0c349@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E122976-9F60-4D76-A7EA-C3BAED758841@verizon.net> It looks like it would be far easier to extract Deuterium (D) from the oceans and burn that to create Tritium (T) and He3, and burn them. D+D->He3 + n ; D+D -> T + p ; D + T -> He4 + n ; D + He3 -> He4 + p net 6D -> 2He3 + 2 n + 2p On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:03 AM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggestion: Go read what has been discovered about the helium-3 and how they expect to mine, get it to earth and then use it. From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Mar 5 08:26:53 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:26:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <8ba0c.687515f4.38c1fa08@aol.com> References: <8ba0c.687515f4.38c1fa08@aol.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D52900C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Hmmmm...proper grammar. Interesting but deceiving concept. I am a teacher...now in my 43rd year in the classroom...and have a Ph.D. in English. It's been my good fortune to write quite a few books. As with most teachers, I "mark up" the essays that students submit. The aim is NOT to achieve "proper grammar" but an appropriate level of effectiveness for the chosen audience. Shakespeare spelled his name seven different ways in various documents. Dutch printers working in London in the early days of printing led to orthography such as "thought." In Chaucer's day, the final "e" in a word was pronounced. That was "proper" then...today, thanks to normal changes that all languages undergo, we don't pronounce the final "e." All language usage, by definition, is totally arbitrary. We avoid the so-called "double negative" in English. In Japanese, the double negative is used to make a point more emphatic. We put salt "in" our soup. In German, the salt goes "on" the soup. In German, when a horse is just standing there, it's not proper to say that it's a fast horse...because it's obviously standing there. In English, we somehow manage to say that Secretariat was a fast horse, whether he was standing still or not. "Proper" language usage is a social phenomenon...often used by one class to put down another class. Tomay[toe] or tom[aw]toe?? "I ain't gonna..." or "I'm not going to..." So, it helps us know who not to bring to dinner. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jamsm at aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:09 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Space Race You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so abundant today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? The Grouch In a message dated 3/5/2010 12:09:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hannah at teleport.com writes: On 3/4/10 6:45 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > Too bad that teachers don't care if the students learn proper grammar. Teacher do care! But caring that a student gets the lesson is as likely to be successful as writing on Grovenet is likely to change a mind. It is not because the writers do not "care". Additionally, some of the things we old folks complain about are really the result of the language changing...a thing that has happened since language began. And probably the old folks then complained because some of those idiot children said "Grunt" instead of "Grunt-grunt" then too. Probably their teachers didn't care either. Kristy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 5 08:31:27 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 08:31:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] I'd rather be reelected than be consistent . . . . Message-ID: <4B9131DF.3030307@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100305/cfc44762/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100305/cfc44762/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 5 09:04:39 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:04:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9139A7.8010703@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100305/65fb2e80/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 5 09:25:36 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 09:25:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Time for some definitions to help us stay on track . . . . Message-ID: <4B913E90.8060907@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100305/a6cebff5/attachment.html From obrzl at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 09:46:30 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 09:46:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor Message-ID: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Take a look @ Henry Ford & this Tractor & car. This is a rare video of an invention that never went very far. Wait until you see the automobile version; it is all on here. 1926 Snow Tractor. Talk about ingenuity! This is a 1926 silent film (on video) of a tractor-snow-machine invented by Henry Ford, shown here driving it. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html Our modern snowmobiles are far better, but Henry's machine is pretty clever for the time. From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Mar 5 10:24:25 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:24:25 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: mark oberzil 's message of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 09:46:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4486-4B914C59-198@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> hey, young-man I see you have finally stopped lurking around, and have come out of hiding. Glad to see you back, now ... I await your much appreciated criticism, as well as your stimulating input. anyway enough of he brown nosing. and needless to say ... whats up? ~A~;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100305/7b0ad27a/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 10:48:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:48:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: <4486-4B914C59-198@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <31169740.11106811267814914635.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Gotta say I enjoy Hoss input and the roses/cards are stimulating. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:24:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor hey, young-man I see you have finally stopped lurking around, and have come out of hiding. Glad to see you back, now ... I await your much appreciated criticism, as well as your stimulating input. anyway enough of he brown nosing. and needless to say ... whats up? ~A~;) From obrzl at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 11:13:15 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:13:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: <4486-4B914C59-198@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <501715.35789.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thanks, Alan, ? ?I'm just trying to be a little bit, more, ah, normal.? After all, Los Gatos isn't all that far from Pismo Beach, huh? ? Obie ? --- On Fri, 3/5/10, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: From: Alan AKA Hoss Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 6:24 PM hey, young-man I see you have finally stopped lurking around, and have come out of hiding.? Glad to see you back, now ... I await your much appreciated criticism, as well as your stimulating input. anyway enough of he brown nosing. and needless to say ... whats up? ~A~;) -----Inline Attachment Follows----- -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 11:36:03 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:36:03 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C4FB6BF0D70400697D8E5A4903FF7E1@EdDaviePC> Hmmm... Even a dictionary can be wrong! Ed From: Christiana Mayer Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:08 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an honorary doctorate degree to Al Gore for his ?visionary leadership.? My dictionary defines ?visionary? as ?Not founded on fact; imaginary?; as well as ?Affected by or tending toward fantasies.? - Courtesy LewRockwell.com -- Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 11:39:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:39:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <4B9139A7.8010703@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <2077317138.11129651267817989567.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Big AL is not a scientist, and not exceptionally smart either, but give him visionary credit for recognizing a money making schema when he saw one. Net worth from 1 million dollers ten years ago to 100 million dollers today is pretty good pay for his time. We should all be so dumb. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:04:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Al Gore Interesting juxtaposition of the cynical connotations of the word "visionary" versus the almost universally commendatory connotations of "visionary leader".  http://tinyurl.com/yeaqyds  

Christiana, the noted press release says Gore is getting the degree not as a visionary, but for his "visionary leadership". Me thinks somebody did stop reading too soon, though most likely Lew Rockwell and not you. You are just the messenger and not the author.

bob "got to read the whole thing, not pick and choose" browning

PS: A short note on Lew Rockwell, and perhaps an indication that he may have some bias in his blog:

"Rockwell was closely associated with his teacher and colleague Murray Rothbard until Rothbard's death in 1995. Rockwell's political ideology, like Rothbard's in his later years, combines a form of anarcho-capitalism with cultural conservatism and the Austrian School of economics. He also advocates federalist concepts as a means of promoting freedom from central government, and also advocates secession for the same political decentralist reasons. Rockwell has called environmentalism '[a]n ideology as pitiless and Messianic as Marxism'".      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Rockwell 

Rockwell is a long time supporter of and consultant to Ron Paul.

Another note:

"In January, 1990 Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. published 'The Case for Paleo-libertarianism' in Liberty magazine. In it he wrote that the “conservative crack-up presents an historic opportunity for the libertarian movement” to unite with conservatives but only if “libertarianism is deloused” of those who believe in “freedom from cultural norms, religion, bourgeois morality, and social authority.” Citing drug use by libertarians and the nomination of a prostitute as the California Libertarian Party candidate for lieutenant governor, Rockwell asserted that “the only way to sever libertarianism’s link with libertinism is with a cleansing debate.” Assailing alleged “hatred of western culture,” he asserted that “pornographic photography, ‘free’-thinking, chaotic painting, atonal music, deconstructionist literature, Bauhaus architecture, and modernist films have nothing in common with the libertarian political agenda - no matter how much individual libertarians may revel in them” and stated “we obey, and we ought to obey, traditions of manners and taste.” After explaining why cultural conservatives could make a better argument for liberty to the middle classes, Rockwell predicted 'in the new movement, libertarians who personify the present corruption will sink to their natural level, as will the Libertarian Party, which has been their diabolic pulpit'”.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolibertarian
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 3/4/2010 10:08 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: 
The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an honorary
doctorate degree to Al Gore for his “visionary leadership.” My dictionary
defines “visionary” as “Not founded on fact; imaginary”; as well as
“Affected by or tending toward fantasies.” - Courtesy LewRockwell.com

From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 12:57:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:57:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] I'd rather be reelected than be consistent . . . . In-Reply-To: <4B9131DF.3030307@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1643245520.11164971267822664265.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Good move rep McCain, and if not consistent with your past viewpoints, this is good timing. With Medicare money used only for medicare, democrats of which I am one, lose a piggy bank that they could have raided at will to support their socialist agenda. They will have to cut back on their grandiose socialists plans. Boo Hoo for them. They can look for other people to rob.....people younger than 62 years of age. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:31:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] I'd rather be reelected than be consistent . . . .
In sort of a now near-consistent R framework, denial of one's own past while continuing to tell lies about the "others" has become a constant refrain.

bob "who, me? browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

McCain Bill Making Medicare Untouchable Via Reconciliation Contradicts His Record

Sam Stein Sam Stein
 Thu Mar 4, 11:54 pm ET

In a direct challenge to Democratic leadership, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) introduced an amendment on Thursday night that would prohibit Congress from using reconciliation to make changes to Medicare.

Framed as an effort to protect the sanctity of entitlement programs, McCain's measure would deprive Democrats of a stream of revenue for their health care bill. The party has targeted hundreds of billions of dollars in cuts and savings to the Medicare program that it would turn around and use to pay for other reforms.

But for McCain to be the Republican face behind this effort is to distract, a bit, from its seriousness. The Senator has a fairly lengthy history of voting for reconciliation bills that do exactly what his current amendment prohibits: change Medicare.

As pointed out by a Democratic source on the Hill, the Arizona Republican has voted for nine out of 13 reconciliation bills that have been offered during his time in the Senate. Of those nine, four included cuts to Medicare.

One of those bills McCain supported was the Balanced Budget Act of 1995 (vetoed by President Clinton) which, as written by the GOP, would have cut Medicare and Medicaid by a combined $452 billion over seven years. In addition, McCain supported the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989, which included Medicare cuts; the Balanced Budget Act of 1997, which cut Medicare by $115 billion over five years; and the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, which also cut Medicare.

"Despite the amendment he offered today to score political points, Senator McCain has supported using reconciliation to cut Medicare throughout his career, as recently as five years ago, on party-line votes, and with massive cuts to Medicare and Medicaid," the source emails.

McCain first previewed his amendment during an appearance on Meet the Press this past Sunday, in which he noted, correctly, that another entitlement program, Social Security, was exempted from reconciliation by design. His reverence for the sanctity of Medicare is what's new.

"Social Security cannot be considered in reconciliation," McCain said. "We should do the same thing with Medicare. (Sen.) Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and I will be introducing legislation: Entitlements should not be part of a reconciliation process -- i.e., 51 votes. It's too important."


From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 20:49:09 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:49:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Message-ID: <008601cabce8$5caebaf0$160c30d0$@net> Democratic Rep. Eric Massa will resign from Congress on Monday, only days after reports first surfaced that the freshman New York lawmaker was under investigation by the House ethics committee for allegedly sexually harassing a male staffer. From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Mar 5 21:40:57 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 21:40:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: "Steven" 's message of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:49:09 -0800 Message-ID: <21566-4B91EAE9-626@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Gee .. so what else is new? I always thought all politicians were queer. And queer ... as in unnerving. For they always got their hand out for something! From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 21:59:38 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 21:59:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <008601cabce8$5caebaf0$160c30d0$@net> References: <008601cabce8$5caebaf0$160c30d0$@net> Message-ID: <76BE3023-28B7-45BC-A104-087D2C52BF9D@verizon.net> Is that response faster or slower than Senator Larry Craig's decision to resign after the bathroom incident? 2010, Dem. Congressman Eric Massa under investigation by Dem. House. 2006, Rep. Congressman Mark Foley did something similar, and House Speaker Dennis Hastert worked to cover it up. No one is immune to problems. David On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Steven wrote: > Democratic Rep. Eric Massa will resign from Congress on Monday, only days after reports first surfaced that the freshman New York lawmaker was under investigation by the House ethics committee for allegedly sexually harassing a male staffer. From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 22:04:24 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:04:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <2077317138.11129651267817989567.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2077317138.11129651267817989567.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: By money making schema, are you referring to his work for Apple Computer and Google, his concert promotion, or the investment in start up companies? Since that appears to be the source of his wealth. David On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:39 AM, donkelly wrote: > Big AL is not a scientist, and not exceptionally smart either, but give him visionary credit for recognizing a money making schema when he saw one. > > Net worth from 1 million dollers ten years ago to 100 million dollers today is pretty good pay for his time. > > We should all be so dumb. > > don From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Mar 5 22:27:59 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 22:27:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <008601cabce8$5caebaf0$160c30d0$@net> References: <008601cabce8$5caebaf0$160c30d0$@net> Message-ID: <001201cabcf6$2abd0d90$803728b0$@com> > Democratic Rep. Eric Massa will resign from Congress on > Monday, only days after reports first surfaced that the > freshman New York lawmaker was under investigation by > the House ethics committee for allegedly sexually > harassing a male staffer. At least he's clear about his offenses and is willingly leaving office. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/03/06/us/politics/AP-US-Massa-Resigns.h tml Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Mar 5 22:42:04 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:42:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72BF8D4E-60C9-427C-A83B-6D7D9881FDFB@verizon.net> I remember seeing a piece on the Chrysler Marsh Screw Amphibian when I was much younger. Now I know where they got the idea. http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/C_C.html Thanks for the show. On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:46 AM, mark oberzil wrote: > Take a look @ Henry Ford & this Tractor & car. > > This is a rare video of an invention that never went very far. Wait until you see the automobile version; it is all on here. 1926 Snow Tractor. Talk about ingenuity. This is a 1926 silent film (on video) of a tractor-snow-machine invented by Henry Ford, shown here driving it. > > http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html > > Our modern snowmobiles are far better, but Henry's machine is pretty clever for the time. From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri Mar 5 22:58:55 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 22:58:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01cabcfa$7d217130$77645390$@com> > From: mark oberzil > > Take a look @ Henry Ford & this Tractor & car. Very curious that the car implementation uses a Chevy and not a Ford. ;) Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 23:22:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 07:22:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1075696544.11328031267860143417.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No David. That was old stuff and chiefly false. He did not start the internet as he claimed, and he never worked for Steve Wosniak and Steve Jobs. If he invested in dot.coms he probably lost money. That was all in the 80's and in the 90's he was in, or trying to be, in government. Ten years ago he was worth about one million dollers, then he dedicated full time to promoting the Global Warming Scam, then in 2009 he was reportedly worth about 100 million dollers. Now he may have made money on the side mowing lawns, but his wealth came from the people and companies and countries who bought into the scam. This is all much better documented than his conclusions about global warming. And how convenient that he changed the name of his scam to Climate Change. I however agree with him on some points, one being that we the people can help clean up our atmosphere. It won't substantially change any temperaturs, but it will make it safer to breath our air. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 06:04:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Al Gore By money making schema, are you referring to his work for Apple Computer and Google, his concert promotion, or the investment in start up companies? Since that appears to be the source of his wealth. David On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:39 AM, donkelly wrote: > Big AL is not a scientist, and not exceptionally smart either, but give him visionary credit for recognizing a money making schema when he saw one. > > Net worth from 1 million dollers ten years ago to 100 million dollers today is pretty good pay for his time. > > We should all be so dumb. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 5 23:38:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 07:38:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <21566-4B91EAE9-626@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <416632938.11329071267861107255.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You may have touched upon a tender point there Hoss, but the following definitions by Free Dictionary (online) could apply to some polititions. queer (kw?r) adj. queer?er, queer?est 1. Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation. 2. Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange. 3. Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious. 4. Slang Fake; counterfeit. 5. Feeling slightly ill; queasy. 6. Offensive Slang Homosexual. 7. Usage Problem Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people. n. 1. Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual person. 2. Usage Problem A lesbian, gay male, bisexual, or transgendered person. tr.v. queered, queer?ing, queers Slang 1. To ruin or thwart: "might try to queer the Games with anything from troop movements . . . to a bomb attack" (Newsweek). 2. To put (someone) in a bad position. Don't want to use too broad a brush- - -that would not be politically correct. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 05:40:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Gee .. so what else is new? I always thought all politicians were queer. And queer ... as in unnerving. For they always got their hand out for something! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat Mar 6 00:25:56 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 00:25:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <1075696544.11328031267860143417.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1075696544.11328031267860143417.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <002101cabd06$a5a1ac90$f0e505b0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > [...] He did not start the internet as he claimed, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If you're going to start out by listing things that are supposedly "chiefly false" then it'd be a good idea to not start with one that's been thoroughly debunked. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp http://sethf.com/gore/ http://mediamatters.org/research/200812050004 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] and he never worked for Steve Wosniak and Steve Jobs. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Worked for? What about worked with? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.#Directors http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/mar/19gore.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] If he invested in dot.coms he probably lost money. That was > all in the 80's and in the 90's he was in, or trying to be, in > government. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I can't find specific information about his dot com era investments. However, he's served to date as a senior advisor to Google since February 2001. His involvement in Google netted him some pre-public-offering stock options which I'm sure turned out to be quite a nice deal. http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=f5eda7b7-fc8b-4d97-9652 -b148247cbe89 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Ten years ago he was worth about one million dollers, then he > dedicated full time to promoting the Global Warming Scam, then in > 2009 he was reportedly worth about 100 million dollers. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< He also started a media company in 2002 that's done quite well too. He currently earns about $1,000,000 a year from that in salary and bonuses. There's an informative, if less than flattering, article on that venture at: http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2008/tc2008035_855093.htm ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Now he may have made money on the side mowing lawns, but his wealth > came from the people and companies and countries who bought into > the scam. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If by mowing lawns you mean public speaking, then he makes about $175,000 per engagement for that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > This is all much better documented than his conclusions about global > warming. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, it's well documented, but not to the tone you're suggesting. There's a whole bunch more detailed here: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/117/features-gore.html Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 00:51:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 00:51:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <1075696544.11328031267860143417.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1075696544.11328031267860143417.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F6F457D-ADA4-4FDB-B068-E5DB51699ED3@verizon.net> The financial review comes from sources like the 2007 article http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/117/features-gore.html It is post 2000. And it says Google [2001] not "starting the internet". It says Apple Computer [2002], not "Jobs and Wozniak". The investments were in Generation [2004, financial management], Current TV [2004, cable media], and Metropolitan West financial [2003, asset management]. Those are NOT software dot.coms. If you want to do the research that demonstrates otherwise, I'll look at it. If you wish to discuss the measured highest average temperatures planet wide during 1999-2008, we can discuss that as well. I DO agree that cleaning the air will make it better to breathe. Just as reducing our consumption of petroleum will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. And reducing our dependence on foreign oil will reduce our need to keep the dollar "strong against the world's currencies". And reducing the strength of our dollar will make our industries more competitive on the world markets. Which will employ more Americans. Which will allow for less welfare and reduced federal debt. And the higher cost for petroleum makes the alternatives competitive without public subsidies. Yes, paying more for imports means that working Americans will see higher costs for the goods and services that they buy. I believe that is preferable to "Low Prices Everyday" for unemployed Americans. BTW, Gore never claimed to invent the internet. He did say that he pushed for federal funding for the ArpaNet when others saw it as government waste. And his name is on the legislation. David On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:22 PM, donkelly wrote: > No David. That was old stuff and chiefly false. He did not start the internet as he claimed, and he never worked for Steve Wosniak and Steve Jobs. If he invested in dot.coms he probably lost money. That was all in the 80's and in the 90's he was in, or trying to be, in government. > > Ten years ago he was worth about one million dollers, then he dedicated full time to promoting the Global Warming Scam, then in 2009 he was reportedly worth about 100 million dollers. > > Now he may have made money on the side mowing lawns, but his wealth came from the people and companies and countries who bought into the scam. > > This is all much better documented than his conclusions about global warming. > > And how convenient that he changed the name of his scam to Climate Change. > > I however agree with him on some points, one being that we the people can help clean up our atmosphere. It won't substantially change any temperaturs, but it will make it safer to breath our air. > > donkelly From hannah at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 08:01:29 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 10:01:29 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <8ba0c.687515f4.38c1fa08@aol.com> Message-ID: How perceptive of you to notice...yes, indeed, I was a teacher...and still am tho at an entire different "grade level" and material. By the way, when was the last time you spent helping a teacher for a day? It's quite an educational experience. Kristy On 3/5/10 12:09 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so abundant > today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? > > The Grouch From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 08:15:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 08:15:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97C95DF7-1C02-43D1-B7A7-4A4E9CFF4904@verizon.net> Kristy, My hat is off to you. Teachers are attacked from all sides these days and they are some of the nicest and most generous people on the planet. As my kids were going through FG schools I would drive by the building on the way to a sporting event or to a friends house and it was uncanny how the teachers car would still be in the parking lot and the light on in their room every time I drove by. They stayed till 7:00 or later. And then you would find them in the community volunteering for fund raisers to help others or doing summer programs (all unpaid of course). In the real world, people need education and the folks who teach provide it. I would not be happy to live in a world where the common man claimed that to make a better future we need less education. I am not a teacher but when people ask me if I am one, I take it as a compliment. Thanks for all that you and other teachers do. Katie On Mar 6, 2010, at 8:01 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > How perceptive of you to notice...yes, indeed, I was a > teacher...and still > am tho at an entire different "grade level" and material. > > By the way, when was the last time you spent helping a teacher for > a day? > It's quite an educational experience. > > Kristy > > > On 3/5/10 12:09 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > >> You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so >> abundant >> today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? >> >> The Grouch > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 08:55:00 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 10:55:00 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive Message-ID: This arrived in my mail box this morning. Kristy March 04, 2010 Beware the "Census Form" You Receive As most U.S. genealogists already know, the U.S. Census Bureau conducts a census every ten years. The 2010 census will be conducted by mail over the next few weeks. However, be cautious when you receive an envelope that is marked, "Do Not Destroy, Official Document" and also states "2010 Congressional District Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the same as the Census Bureau. It wasn't sent by the Census Bureau, and it isn't official. It is a solicitation for you to send money to a political party. The letter that looks like an official government mailing was, in fact, sent by the Republican Party which is seeking input and money from GOP voters ? seemingly under the guise of the U.S. Census Bureau. "Strengthening our Party for the 2010 elections is going to take a massive grass-roots effort all across America. That is why I have authorized a Census to be conducted of every Congressional District in the country," GOP Chairman Michael Steele says in a letter mailed nationwide. As described above, the letter was sent in plain white envelopes marked "Do Not Destroy, Official Document." Labeled "2010 Congressional District Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the same as the Census Bureau. It also includes a "Census Tracking Code." The letter makes a plea for money and accompanies a form asking voters to identify their political leanings and issues important to them. There are no disclaimers that participation in the GOP effort is voluntary; participation in the government census is required by law. Failure to participate in the government census carries a $5,000 fine, though it is rarely enforced. You can read many online articles about this trick mailing if you start at http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=census+letter+republic an&aq=f&aqi=&oq= . Posted by Dick Eastman on March 04, 2010 From Jamsm at aol.com Sat Mar 6 09:05:37 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:05:37 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race Message-ID: <50a70.e392e2c.38c3e561@aol.com> I was not saying all teachers are lousy - just that there are MANY. I would tend to offer that there are probably fewer Good teachers than lousy ones. Anytime I offered to provide support at a FG grade school - they turned me down. This started with Kindergarten. Over time I figured out that they did not want me to see what my son was doing in the class room. They would claim I was being disruptive to the class when I would just be sitting in the back of the room observing what was going on (no kids were looking at me etc.) to see if I could get data to improve my son's IEP. [He is high function autism/Aspergers.] The biggest problem they would complain about is that he would blurt out answers before the teacher could call on anyone. Yes, he is smart! He could also read at above 10th grade level. (They tested him in 3rd grade.) But at the same time claimed he was not TAG material! Quote, "We do not have any placement that addresses his skill level." The kindergarten teacher even told me to stop teaching him! SAY WHAT?! We 'fired' two teachers while my son attended the FG school. I would tell them, "You're fired." They would indignantly respond, "You can't fire me!" I would respond, "watch me!" The next day my son would be in a different class or in the case of the second occurrence, no longer enrolled in the school. The first teacher we fired, was thought of being the 'best' teacher they had. She refused to follow the IEP. The second teacher also refused to follow the IEP. Needless to say, we left Oregon to enroll my son in better schools. My son was not the problem they claimed, when they followed the IEP. They would let things escalate and create situations that would exploit my son's ability to cope with his stresses in he class room. All of the teachers he encountered there, did not care if he completed the assignments. He would ace their quizzes and tests anyway. They also failed to challenge him, thus was bored most of the time. An additional testament as to just how poor the schools are in Oregon, when I arrived in Oregon in the eighth grade, I was promptly given the task of teaching my fellow students (giving assignments, creating and grading tests etc.) while the teacher worked with the other half of the class attempting to bring them up to speed. He was teaching them simple math, reading and writing. Half the class had been passed forward without having learned the basics. Where I came from, I had been the typical average student (primarily a C and B student.) In Oregon I became an A student. I also quickly became bored and unchallenged. And they (Oregon school system) still wonder today why very few Oregon students are accepted at the better schools around the country. LOL Gee, Ya' think that it might be because they don''t do a very good job of preparing the students? The Grouch In a message dated 3/6/2010 11:04:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hannah at teleport.com writes: How perceptive of you to notice...yes, indeed, I was a teacher...and still am tho at an entire different "grade level" and material. By the way, when was the last time you spent helping a teacher for a day? It's quite an educational experience. Kristy On 3/5/10 12:09 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so abundant > today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 09:31:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:31:51 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Sat, 6 Mar 2010 07:38:27 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <21561-4B929187-2988@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Don.... I thinkall of those discriptions you laid out, are right on point. ~A~;?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100306/9b08041b/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 6 11:13:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:13:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <21561-4B929187-2988@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so that much is 100% true. Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new words often.) As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from-hiding?xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_url respectfully donkelly From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Sat Mar 6 11:27:00 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 11:27:00 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <21561-4B929187-2988@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000c01cabd62$ff2f3910$fd8dab30$@net> That would be a fun survey. Just like the ones about how many people believe in space aliens. How many people believe Al created the internet? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:13 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so that much is 100% true. Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new words often.) As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from-hiding?xgs=1 &xg_source=msg_share_url respectfully donkelly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 6 11:45:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:45:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000c01cabd62$ff2f3910$fd8dab30$@net> Message-ID: <689890796.11430191267904748191.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Sho nuff Steven; the list of subjects could exponentially grow and every one would be interesting and educational. donkelly PS: Subject: Do carabou love or hate the pipeline? Not exactly local though. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:27:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat That would be a fun survey. Just like the ones about how many people believe in space aliens. How many people believe Al created the internet? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:13 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so that much is 100% true. Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new words often.) As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from-hiding?xgs=1 &xg_source=msg_share_url respectfully donkelly _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 12:10:42 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:10:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] not exactly a tit for tat Message-ID: <21558-4B92B6C2-5684@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> not exactly a tit for tat, but it will do Me and my katts hope all the folks in the grove will be enjoys the sunshine today. Me thinks ... spring is in the air, cause an OleHoss and crew about to abscond to the back 40 to check on my 6 Ter.....iums now will some please fill in the blanks? I know i'm not even close on the spelling, so help me out. Also will someone please tell me why they are a State Protected Flower, and if there is a fine of how $'s. for picking them. ~A~ [:?) -------------- next part -------------- http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm From obrzl at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 12:20:07 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:20:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything Message-ID: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> ? ----- > > > >? ? ? A quiz for people who know everything!? There are only nine questions. > > > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? This is a quiz for people who know everything!? I found out in a hurry that I didn't.? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? These are not trick questions. They are straight questions with straight answers. > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1. Name the one sport in which neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2. What famous North American landmark is constantly moving backward?? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3. Of all vegetables, only two can live to produce on their own for several? growing seasons.? All other vegetables must be replanted every year.? What are the only two perennial vegetables? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4. What fruit has its seeds on the outside? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5. In many liquor stores, you can buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle..? The pear is whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in any way.? How did the pear get inside the bottle? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 6. Only three words in standard English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common words.? Name two of them. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 7. There are 14 punctuation marks in English grammar.? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Can you name at least half of them? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 8. Name the only vegetable or fruit that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form except fresh. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 9. Name 6 or more things that you can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Answers To Quiz: > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1... The one sport in which neither the spectators nor the participants? know the score or the leader until the contest ends: Boxing. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2. North American landmark constantly moving backward:? Niagara Falls .? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (The rim is worn down about two and a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of water that rush over it every minute.) > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3. Only two vegetables that can live to produce on their own for several growing seasons: Asparagus and rhubarb. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4. The fruit with its seeds on the outside: Strawberry. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5. How did the pear get inside the brandy bottle?? It grew inside the bottle.? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The bottles are placed over pear buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree.? The bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 6. Three English words beginning with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 7. Fourteen punctuation marks in English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen, apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark, brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses.? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 8. The only vegetable or fruit never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form but fresh: Lettuce. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 9. Six or more things you can wear on your feet beginning with 'S':? Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers, slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes,? stockings, stilts. > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is National Mental Health Day. From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 14:04:48 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 14:04:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <653F913C-5EF1-4134-81A4-1AE17837C344@verizon.net> Very good Mark! But Dweeb is gaining in popularity and may now be 'common' or even 'standard'. Katie On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:20 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > > > ----- > >> >> >> A quiz for people who know everything! There are only nine >> questions. >> >> >> >> >> This is a quiz for people who know >> everything! I found out in a hurry that I didn't. >> >> These are not trick questions. >> They are straight questions with straight answers. >> >> >> 1. Name the one sport in which >> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the >> leader until the contest ends. >> >> 2. What famous North American >> landmark is constantly moving backward? >> >> 3. Of all vegetables, only two can >> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons. All >> other vegetables must be replanted every year. What are the only >> two perennial vegetables? >> >> 4. What fruit has its seeds on the >> outside? >> >> 5. In many liquor stores, you can >> buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle.. The pear is >> whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in >> any way. How did the pear get inside the bottle? >> >> 6. Only three words in standard >> English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common >> words. Name two of them. >> >> 7. There are 14 punctuation marks >> in English grammar. >> >> Can you name at least half of them? >> >> 8. Name the only vegetable or >> fruit that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in >> any other form except fresh. >> >> 9. Name 6 or more things that you >> can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' >> Answers To Quiz: >> >> >> 1... The one sport in which >> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the >> leader until the contest ends: Boxing. >> >> 2. North American landmark >> constantly moving backward: Niagara Falls . >> >> >> (The rim is worn down about two >> and a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of >> water that rush over it every minute.) >> >> 3. Only two vegetables that can >> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons: >> Asparagus and rhubarb. >> >> 4. The fruit with its seeds on the >> outside: Strawberry. >> >> 5. How did the pear get inside the >> brandy bottle? It grew inside the bottle. >> >> The bottles are placed over pear >> buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree. The >> bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the >> pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. >> >> 6. Three English words beginning >> with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... >> >> 7. Fourteen punctuation marks in >> English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen, >> apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark, >> brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses. >> >> 8. The only vegetable or fruit >> never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form >> but fresh: Lettuce. >> >> 9. Six or more things you can wear >> on your feet beginning with 'S': Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers, >> slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes, stockings, stilts. >> >> >> PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is >> National Mental Health Day. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 15:14:34 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:14:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <653F913C-5EF1-4134-81A4-1AE17837C344@verizon.net> Message-ID: <384134.67718.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> And that's why I might not want to play Scrabble! ;) --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Katie Allnutt wrote: From: Katie Allnutt Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 10:04 PM Very good Mark! But Dweeb is gaining in popularity and may now be 'common' or even? 'standard'. Katie On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:20 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > > > ----- > >> >> >>? ? ???A quiz for people who know everything!? There are only nine? >> questions. >> >> >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???This is a quiz for people who know? >> everything!? I found out in a hurry that I didn't. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???These are not trick questions.? >> They are straight questions with straight answers. >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???1. Name the one sport in which? >> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the? >> leader until the contest ends. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???2. What famous North American? >> landmark is constantly moving backward? >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???3. Of all vegetables, only two can? >> live to produce on their own for several? growing seasons.? All? >> other vegetables must be replanted every year.? What are the only? >> two perennial vegetables? >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???4. What fruit has its seeds on the? >> outside? >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???5. In many liquor stores, you can? >> buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle..? The pear is? >> whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in? >> any way.? How did the pear get inside the bottle? >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???6. Only three words in standard? >> English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common? >> words.? Name two of them. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???7. There are 14 punctuation marks? >> in English grammar. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Can you name at least half of them? >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???8. Name the only vegetable or? >> fruit that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in? >> any other form except fresh. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???9. Name 6 or more things that you? >> can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Answers To Quiz: >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???1... The one sport in which? >> neither the spectators nor the participants? know the score or the? >> leader until the contest ends: Boxing. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???2. North American landmark? >> constantly moving backward:? Niagara Falls . >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???(The rim is worn down about two? >> and a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of? >> water that rush over it every minute.) >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???3. Only two vegetables that can? >> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons:? >> Asparagus and rhubarb. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???4. The fruit with its seeds on the? >> outside: Strawberry. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???5. How did the pear get inside the? >> brandy bottle?? It grew inside the bottle. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???The bottles are placed over pear? >> buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree.? The? >> bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the? >> pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???6. Three English words beginning? >> with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???7. Fourteen punctuation marks in? >> English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen,? >> apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark,? >> brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???8. The only vegetable or fruit? >> never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form? >> but fresh: Lettuce. >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???9. Six or more things you can wear? >> on your feet beginning with 'S':? Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers,? >> slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes,? stockings, stilts. >> >> >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is? >> National Mental Health Day. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 15:15:56 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:15:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For #3, what about artichokes, or aren't they vegetables? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mark oberzil Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 12:20 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything ----- > > > > A quiz for people who know everything! There are only nine questions. > > > > > This is a quiz for people who know everything! I found out in a hurry that I didn't. > > These are not trick questions. They are straight questions with straight answers. > > > 1. Name the one sport in which neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends. > > 2. What famous North American landmark is constantly moving backward? > > 3. Of all vegetables, only two can live to produce on their own for several growing seasons. All other vegetables must be replanted every year. What are the only two perennial vegetables? > > 4. What fruit has its seeds on the outside? > > 5. In many liquor stores, you can buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle.. The pear is whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in any way. How did the pear get inside the bottle? > > 6. Only three words in standard English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common words. Name two of them. > > 7. There are 14 punctuation marks in English grammar. > > Can you name at least half of them? > > 8. Name the only vegetable or fruit that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form except fresh. > > 9. Name 6 or more things that you can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' > Answers To Quiz: > > > 1... The one sport in which neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends: Boxing. > > 2. North American landmark constantly moving backward: Niagara Falls . > > > (The rim is worn down about two and a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of water that rush over it every minute.) > > 3. Only two vegetables that can live to produce on their own for several growing seasons: Asparagus and rhubarb. > > 4. The fruit with its seeds on the outside: Strawberry. > > 5. How did the pear get inside the brandy bottle? It grew inside the bottle. > > The bottles are placed over pear buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree. The bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. > > 6. Three English words beginning with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... > > 7. Fourteen punctuation marks in English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen, apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark, brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses. > > 8. The only vegetable or fruit never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form but fresh: Lettuce. > > 9. Six or more things you can wear on your feet beginning with 'S': Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers, slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes, stockings, stilts. > > > PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is National Mental Health Day. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 15:18:58 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:18:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: mark oberzil 's message of Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:20:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4479-4B92E2E2-3230@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I never said I knew everything, but ... I do now! From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 15:43:08 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:43:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:15:56 -0800 Message-ID: <4483-4B92E88C-1535@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Ed... I don't claim to know very much, however, I do know that the artichoke is a vegetable, and is also related to some types of flowers because of it's flowers that sprout with its seeds. The reason I know something about this is because our neighbors in Morro Bay, Ca used to raise them. And Mark what the heck were you doing in Portuguese Palm beach? Some of the kids I went to Mission Catholic High School in San Luis Obispo were from Pismo. Also did you happen to go anywhere near the Odd Fellows Old Folks Home there in Los Gatos? Ya know I always wondered if they ever found that lost cat When my folks were involved with the that group a way back then ... 40 plus .. My Dad used to cook a big Bar-B-Que every spring to raise money, I don't know if they even do that any more. Well I'd better get back to my roses From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 15:51:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:51:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <2C4FB6BF0D70400697D8E5A4903FF7E1@EdDaviePC> References: <2C4FB6BF0D70400697D8E5A4903FF7E1@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <89B5AF2F-DBCC-49A8-B76F-A7176AB83B4B@teleport.com> And as noted before, you failed to mention the other definitions, obviously implied in the contest of the article. What is this tiresome obsession with Al Gore, anyhow? Can't debunk the message, so attack the messenger? On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Hmmm... Even a dictionary can be wrong! > Ed > > > From: Christiana Mayer > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:08 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore > > > The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award an > honorary > doctorate degree to Al Gore for his ?visionary leadership.? My > dictionary > defines ?visionary? as ?Not founded on fact; imaginary?; as well as > ?Affected by or tending toward fantasies.? - Courtesy LewRockwell.com > > -- > Christiana > =============================== > Christiana Mayer > christianamayer at gmail.com > "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. > It takes a > touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite > direction." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 15:52:42 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:52:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: mark oberzil 's message of Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:14:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4479-4B92EACA-3286@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mark.. why not play scrabble? Now days the Franklin and Merriam-Webster spell checker fits in the palm of ones hand. My dear ole auntie did not want to use it, but she did not care if I did, she sometimes would call me in the early morning hours to see what word would fit in the right spots in the NYT crossword puzzle. Like I said she did want to use, but did not care if I did.. and I still use it... sometimes it takes me about 15 minutes with out it, and sometimes most of the day with it. Today ..heck I can't even do the comic page puzzle with it.. oh well back to my flowers From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 15:52:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:52:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Al Gore In-Reply-To: <2077317138.11129651267817989567.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2077317138.11129651267817989567.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I take it you completely ignored the solid data Mike came up with. Why this silly obsession with Al Gore, anyhow? Can't dubunk the message, so attack the messenger? On Mar 5, 2010, at 11:39 AM, donkelly wrote: > Big AL is not a scientist, and not exceptionally smart either, but > give him visionary credit for recognizing a money making schema > when he saw one. > > Net worth from 1 million dollers ten years ago to 100 million > dollers today is pretty good pay for his time. > > We should all be so dumb. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:04:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Al Gore > > > > > > > > Interesting juxtaposition of the cynical connotations > of the word "visionary" versus the almost universally > commendatory > connotations of "visionary leader".  class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tinyurl.com/yeaqyds" > target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/yeaqyds >  
>
> Christiana, the noted press release says Gore is getting the degree > not > as a visionary, but for his "visionary leadership". Me > thinks somebody > did stop reading too soon, though most likely Lew Rockwell and not > you. > You are just the messenger and not the author.
>
> bob "got to read the whole thing, not pick and choose" > browning
>
> PS: A short note on Lew Rockwell, and perhaps an indication that he > may > have some bias in his blog:
>
> "Rockwell was closely associated with his teacher and > colleague title="Murray Rothbard" target="_blank">Murray Rothbard until > Rothbard's death in > 1995. Rockwell's political ideology, like Rothbard's in his > later > years, combines a form of target="_blank">anarcho-capitalism with cultural conservatism and the href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School" > title="Austrian School" target="_blank">Austrian School of > economics. He also > advocates title="Federalist" target="_blank">federalist concepts as a > means of promoting > freedom from central government, and also advocates secession for the > same political target="_blank">decentralist reasons. Rockwell has called > environmentalism '[a]n ideology as pitiless and Messianic as > Marxism'" a>.      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Lew_Rockwell 
>
> Rockwell is a long time supporter of and consultant to Ron > Paul.
>
> Another note:
>
> "In January, 1990 Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. published > 'The Case > for Paleo-libertarianism' in target="_blank">Liberty magazine. In it he wrote that the > “conservative crack-up presents an historic opportunity for the > libertarian movement” to unite with conservatives but only if > “libertarianism is deloused” of those who believe in > “freedom from > cultural norms, religion, bourgeois morality, and social > authority.” > Citing drug use by libertarians and the nomination of a prostitute as > the California Libertarian Party candidate for lieutenant governor, > Rockwell asserted that “the only way to sever > libertarianism’s link > with libertinism is with a cleansing debate.” Assailing > alleged “hatred > of western culture,” he asserted that “pornographic > photography, > ‘free’-thinking, chaotic painting, atonal music, > deconstructionist > literature, Bauhaus architecture, and modernist films have nothing in > common with the libertarian political agenda - no matter how much > individual libertarians may revel in them” and stated > “we obey, and we > ought to obey, traditions of manners and taste.” After > explaining why > cultural conservatives could make a better argument for liberty to the > middle classes, Rockwell predicted 'in the new movement, > libertarians > who personify the present corruption will sink to their natural level, > as will the Libertarian Party, which has been their diabolic > pulpit'”.  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Paleolibertarian
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> On 3/4/2010 10:08 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: >
cite="mid:ef3e803b1003042208h33f48ba8lf2b9ced70b24a1f9 at mail.gmail.com" > > > 
The University of Tennessee has announced that it will award  
> an honorary
> doctorate degree to Al Gore for his “visionary  
> leadership.” My dictionary
> defines “visionary” as “Not founded on fact;  
> imaginary”; as well as
> “Affected by or tending toward fantasies.” - Courtesy  
> LewRockwell.com
>
>
>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 18:52:37 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 18:52:37 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Henry Ford's snow tractor In-Reply-To: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <913019.76278.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7EE5E725-A7F9-48EF-91CD-3F15B71D0FDA@teleport.com> Amazing... the thing moves on the same principle as a sidewinder rattlesnake, like a rolling helix, only in this case a spinning one. On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:46 AM, mark oberzil wrote: > Take a look @ Henry Ford & this Tractor & car. > > > This is a rare video of an invention that never went very far. > Wait until you see the automobile version; it is all on here. > 1926 Snow Tractor. Talk about ingenuity! > This is a 1926 silent film (on video) of a tractor-snow-machine > invented by Henry Ford, shown here driving it. > > http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,213971.0/topicseen.html > > Our modern snowmobiles are far better, but Henry's machine is pretty > clever for the time. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 19:14:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:14:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aw gee... why am I not surprised? On Mar 6, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > This arrived in my mail box this morning. Kristy > > March 04, 2010 > Beware the "Census Form" You Receive > As most U.S. genealogists already know, the U.S. Census Bureau > conducts a > census every ten years. The 2010 census will be conducted by mail > over the > next few weeks. However, be cautious when you receive an envelope > that is > marked, "Do Not Destroy, Official Document" and also states "2010 > Congressional District Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the > same as > the Census Bureau. > > It wasn't sent by the Census Bureau, and it isn't official. It is a > solicitation for you to send money to a political party. > > The letter that looks like an official government mailing was, in > fact, sent > by the Republican Party which is seeking input and money from GOP > voters ? > seemingly under the guise of the U.S. Census Bureau. > > "Strengthening our Party for the 2010 elections is going to take a > massive > grass-roots effort all across America. That is why I have authorized a > Census to be conducted of every Congressional District in the > country," GOP > Chairman Michael Steele says in a letter mailed nationwide. > > As described above, the letter was sent in plain white envelopes > marked "Do > Not Destroy, Official Document." Labeled "2010 Congressional District > Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the same as the Census > Bureau. It > also includes a "Census Tracking Code." > > The letter makes a plea for money and accompanies a form asking > voters to > identify their political leanings and issues important to them. > There are no > disclaimers that participation in the GOP effort is voluntary; > participation > in the government census is required by law. Failure to participate > in the > government census carries a $5,000 fine, though it is rarely enforced. > > You can read many online articles about this trick mailing if you > start at > http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=census+letter > +republic > an&aq=f&aqi=&oq= > source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=censu > s+letter+republican&aq=f&aqi=&oq=> . > > Posted by Dick Eastman on March 04, 2010 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 19:18:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:18:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] not exactly a tit for tat In-Reply-To: <21558-4B92B6C2-5684@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <21558-4B92B6C2-5684@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <8137A834-EAC2-4ADA-814A-E53CF0F001E5@teleport.com> Hoss... If the Trilliums are in bloom, can Spring be far behind? Walt On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > not exactly a tit for tat, but it will do > Me and my katts hope all the folks in the grove will be enjoys the > sunshine today. > > Me thinks ... spring is in the air, cause an OleHoss and crew about to > abscond to the back 40 to check on my 6 Ter.....iums > now will some please fill in the blanks? > I know i'm not even close on the spelling, so help me out. Also will > someone please tell me why they are a State Protected Flower, and if > there is a fine of how $'s. for picking them. > ~A~ [:?) > > http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 6 19:22:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:22:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: References: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good question! Artichokes are actually flower buds, but does that count as a vegetable? Anyone? Gardening minds want to know... On Mar 6, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > For #3, what about artichokes, or aren't they vegetables? > Ed > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > From: mark oberzil > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 12:20 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything > > > > > ----- > >> >> >> A quiz for people who know everything! There are only nine >> questions. >> >> >> >> >> This is a quiz for people who know >> everything! I found out in a hurry that I didn't. >> >> These are not trick questions. They >> are straight questions with straight answers. >> >> >> 1. Name the one sport in which >> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the >> leader until the contest ends. >> >> 2. What famous North American >> landmark is constantly moving backward? >> >> 3. Of all vegetables, only two can >> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons. All >> other vegetables must be replanted every year. What are the only >> two perennial vegetables? >> >> 4. What fruit has its seeds on the >> outside? >> >> 5. In many liquor stores, you can >> buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle.. The pear is >> whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in >> any way. How did the pear get inside the bottle? >> >> 6. Only three words in standard >> English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common >> words. Name two of them. >> >> 7. There are 14 punctuation marks >> in English grammar. >> >> Can you name at least half of them? >> >> 8. Name the only vegetable or fruit >> that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any >> other form except fresh. >> >> 9. Name 6 or more things that you >> can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' >> Answers To Quiz: >> >> >> 1... The one sport in which neither >> the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader >> until the contest ends: Boxing. >> >> 2. North American landmark >> constantly moving backward: Niagara Falls . >> >> >> (The rim is worn down about two and >> a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of water >> that rush over it every minute.) >> >> 3. Only two vegetables that can >> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons: >> Asparagus and rhubarb. >> >> 4. The fruit with its seeds on the >> outside: Strawberry. >> >> 5. How did the pear get inside the >> brandy bottle? It grew inside the bottle. >> >> The bottles are placed over pear >> buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree. The >> bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the >> pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. >> >> 6. Three English words beginning >> with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... >> >> 7. Fourteen punctuation marks in >> English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen, >> apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark, >> brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses. >> >> 8. The only vegetable or fruit >> never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form >> but fresh: Lettuce. >> >> 9. Six or more things you can wear >> on your feet beginning with 'S': Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers, >> slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes, stockings, stilts. >> >> >> PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is >> National Mental Health Day. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 20:16:32 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 20:16:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <384134.67718.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <384134.67718.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FB2BA8D-9405-45CB-A647-F148C5FDB66E@verizon.net> I'm actually pretty lousy at scrabble. (I only got one of the three that they listed - that's why I wanted to use dweeb, I was desperate.) Katie On Mar 6, 2010, at 3:14 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > And that's why I might not want to play Scrabble! ;) > > --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > > From: Katie Allnutt > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 10:04 PM > > > Very good Mark! > But Dweeb is gaining in popularity and may now be 'common' or even > 'standard'. > > > > Katie > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:20 PM, mark oberzil wrote: > >> >> >> ----- > >>> >>> >>> A quiz for people who know everything! There are only nine >>> questions. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This is a quiz for people who know >>> everything! I found out in a hurry that I didn't. >>> >>> These are not trick questions. >>> They are straight questions with straight answers. >>> >>> >>> 1. Name the one sport in which >>> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the >>> leader until the contest ends. >>> >>> 2. What famous North American >>> landmark is constantly moving backward? >>> >>> 3. Of all vegetables, only two can >>> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons. All >>> other vegetables must be replanted every year. What are the only >>> two perennial vegetables? >>> >>> 4. What fruit has its seeds on the >>> outside? >>> >>> 5. In many liquor stores, you can >>> buy pear brandy, with a real pear inside the bottle.. The pear is >>> whole and ripe, and the bottle is genuine; it hasn't been cut in >>> any way. How did the pear get inside the bottle? >>> >>> 6. Only three words in standard >>> English begin with the letters ' dw' and they are all common >>> words. Name two of them. >>> >>> 7. There are 14 punctuation marks >>> in English grammar. >>> >>> Can you name at least half of them? >>> >>> 8. Name the only vegetable or >>> fruit that is never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in >>> any other form except fresh. >>> >>> 9. Name 6 or more things that you >>> can wear on your feet beginning with the letter 'S.' >>> Answers To Quiz: >>> >>> >>> 1... The one sport in which >>> neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the >>> leader until the contest ends: Boxing. >>> >>> 2. North American landmark >>> constantly moving backward: Niagara Falls . >>> >>> >>> (The rim is worn down about two >>> and a half feet each year because of the millions of gallons of >>> water that rush over it every minute.) >>> >>> 3. Only two vegetables that can >>> live to produce on their own for several growing seasons: >>> Asparagus and rhubarb. >>> >>> 4. The fruit with its seeds on the >>> outside: Strawberry. >>> >>> 5. How did the pear get inside the >>> brandy bottle? It grew inside the bottle. >>> >>> The bottles are placed over pear >>> buds when they are small, and are wired in place on the tree. The >>> bottle is left in place for the entire growing season. When the >>> pears are ripe, they are snipped off at the stems. >>> >>> 6. Three English words beginning >>> with dw: Dwarf, dwell and dwindle... >>> >>> 7. Fourteen punctuation marks in >>> English grammar: Period, comma, colon, semicolon, dash, hyphen, >>> apostrophe,question mark, exclamation point, quotation mark, >>> brackets, parenthesis, braces, and ellipses. >>> >>> 8. The only vegetable or fruit >>> never sold frozen, canned, processed, cooked, or in any other form >>> but fresh: Lettuce. >>> >>> 9. Six or more things you can wear >>> on your feet beginning with 'S': Shoes, socks, sandals, sneakers, >>> slippers, skis, skates, snowshoes, stockings, stilts. >>> >>> >>> PLEASE DO YOUR PART... Today is >>> National Mental Health Day. >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 20:29:26 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 20:29:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Processed lettuce Message-ID: Oops, one of my relatives checked out the 'never' processed part of the quiz and came up with this website. http://importfood.com/rtpc4801.html Maybe the quiz will have to be 8 questions long. Though I suppose we could quibble about whether the ingredients actually include lettuce. It depends on what the definition of 'lettuce' is and how you translate all the varieties of food that grow. Katie From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 6 21:47:55 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 21:47:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] not exactly a tit for tat In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:18:05 -0800 Message-ID: <21560-4B933E0B-4492@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Walt.... thanks for the crrect spelling, and mine are not in bloom yet, but they are trying. I will keep an eye on them and then take pix or two and post them. ~A~[:?) From obrzl at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 22:24:20 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 22:24:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <4483-4B92E88C-1535@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <110999.26986.qm@web84204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Got Pismo mixed up with Morro -my bad.? ?And my dad worked at that Odd Fellows Home - over between Los Gatos and Saratoga-during one of the recessions when he couldn't find aerospace engineering work.? He brought home a table saw they were throwing out.? It was literally a wooden table with a slot cut in it and an arbor mounted underneath.? It had a 6" blade that didn't tilt, but it did have a fence that moved - all wood. ? I'm waiting for trilliums, too. --- On Sat, 3/6/10, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: From: Alan AKA Hoss Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Saturday, March 6, 2010, 11:43 PM Ed... I don't claim to know very much, however, I do know that the artichoke is a vegetable, and is also related to some types of flowers because of it's flowers that sprout with its seeds. The reason I know something about this is because our neighbors in Morro Bay, Ca used to raise them. And Mark what the heck were you doing in Portuguese Palm beach? Some of the kids I went to Mission Catholic High School in San Luis Obispo were from Pismo. Also did you happen to go anywhere near the Odd Fellows Old Folks Home there in Los Gatos?? Ya know I always wondered if they ever found that lost cat When my folks were involved with the that group a way back then ... 40 plus .. My Dad used to cook a big Bar-B-Que every spring to raise money, I don't know if they even do that any more. Well I'd better get back to my roses _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 6 23:18:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:18:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1471796795.11552141267946305361.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> That is way underhanded I would say. What my wife and I want to know are what question are you required by law to answer, and what questions are personal and you don't have to answer them. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 03:14:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive Aw gee... why am I not surprised? On Mar 6, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > This arrived in my mail box this morning. Kristy > > March 04, 2010 > Beware the "Census Form" You Receive > As most U.S. genealogists already know, the U.S. Census Bureau > conducts a > census every ten years. The 2010 census will be conducted by mail > over the > next few weeks. However, be cautious when you receive an envelope > that is > marked, "Do Not Destroy, Official Document" and also states "2010 > Congressional District Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the > same as > the Census Bureau. > > It wasn't sent by the Census Bureau, and it isn't official. It is a > solicitation for you to send money to a political party. > > The letter that looks like an official government mailing was, in > fact, sent > by the Republican Party which is seeking input and money from GOP > voters ? > seemingly under the guise of the U.S. Census Bureau. > > "Strengthening our Party for the 2010 elections is going to take a > massive > grass-roots effort all across America. That is why I have authorized a > Census to be conducted of every Congressional District in the > country," GOP > Chairman Michael Steele says in a letter mailed nationwide. > > As described above, the letter was sent in plain white envelopes > marked "Do > Not Destroy, Official Document." Labeled "2010 Congressional District > Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the same as the Census > Bureau. It > also includes a "Census Tracking Code." > > The letter makes a plea for money and accompanies a form asking > voters to > identify their political leanings and issues important to them. > There are no > disclaimers that participation in the GOP effort is voluntary; > participation > in the government census is required by law. Failure to participate > in the > government census carries a $5,000 fine, though it is rarely enforced. > > You can read many online articles about this trick mailing if you > start at > http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=census+letter > +republic > an&aq=f&aqi=&oq= > source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=censu > s+letter+republican&aq=f&aqi=&oq=> . > > Posted by Dick Eastman on March 04, 2010 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 07:36:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:36:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: <1471796795.11552141267946305361.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1471796795.11552141267946305361.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <24BA4828-B786-4C08-833C-7F31A901B201@teleport.com> Good question! My guess would be, the number of people is most important, with the more personal stuff in declining order of importance. I haven't gotten a survey myself, not even the fake one-- which is odd, since the Repubs kept sending me artfully-crafted "surveys" begging for money for many years, long after I had left the party in disgust. On Mar 6, 2010, at 11:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > That is way underhanded I would say. > > What my wife and I want to know are what question are you required > by law to answer, and what questions are personal and you don't > have to answer them. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 03:14:44 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive > > Aw gee... why am I not surprised? > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> This arrived in my mail box this morning. Kristy >> >> March 04, 2010 >> Beware the "Census Form" You Receive >> As most U.S. genealogists already know, the U.S. Census Bureau >> conducts a >> census every ten years. The 2010 census will be conducted by mail >> over the >> next few weeks. However, be cautious when you receive an envelope >> that is >> marked, "Do Not Destroy, Official Document" and also states "2010 >> Congressional District Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the >> same as >> the Census Bureau. >> >> It wasn't sent by the Census Bureau, and it isn't official. It is a >> solicitation for you to send money to a political party. >> >> The letter that looks like an official government mailing was, in >> fact, sent >> by the Republican Party which is seeking input and money from GOP >> voters ? >> seemingly under the guise of the U.S. Census Bureau. >> >> "Strengthening our Party for the 2010 elections is going to take a >> massive >> grass-roots effort all across America. That is why I have >> authorized a >> Census to be conducted of every Congressional District in the >> country," GOP >> Chairman Michael Steele says in a letter mailed nationwide. >> >> As described above, the letter was sent in plain white envelopes >> marked "Do >> Not Destroy, Official Document." Labeled "2010 Congressional District >> Census," the letter uses a capital "C," the same as the Census >> Bureau. It >> also includes a "Census Tracking Code." >> >> The letter makes a plea for money and accompanies a form asking >> voters to >> identify their political leanings and issues important to them. >> There are no >> disclaimers that participation in the GOP effort is voluntary; >> participation >> in the government census is required by law. Failure to participate >> in the >> government census carries a $5,000 fine, though it is rarely >> enforced. >> >> You can read many online articles about this trick mailing if you >> start at >> http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=census+letter >> +republic >> an&aq=f&aqi=&oq= >> > source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=censu >> s+letter+republican&aq=f&aqi=&oq=> . >> >> Posted by Dick Eastman on March 04, 2010 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 08:02:17 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:02:17 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <50a70.e392e2c.38c3e561@aol.com> Message-ID: On 3/6/10 11:05 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > By the way, when was the last time you spent helping a teacher for a day? > It's quite an educational experience. > > Kristy From hannah at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 08:24:14 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:24:14 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <50a70.e392e2c.38c3e561@aol.com> Message-ID: Wow! A difficult time to say the least. It is not easy to parent a child who is bright but unable to conform to the social etiquette required by large groups of children with only one or two adults available to them. (Nor is it easy to be the adult who is trying to deal with 20-30 youngsters who have, at any given moment 15-20 different needs.) I am sorry to hear that you were not welcomed into the classrooms of your son. I sometimes had to keep from tripping over the many parents who came to work with the children that day. Some of them told me they were coming, some just showed up. Some of them were very well educated, and "natural" teachers too. Some of them were able to claim, or demonstrate, very little formal education, but wanted to help me and wanted to learn how to help their children. I remember one who came in pretty well drunk, not 'dangerous' to the children, but full of interruptions about what I should say or do. (One of my other parents soon needed her help elsewhere and took her out of the environment.) I remember a few who sat over on the side so that they could critique my every move. But most of them jumped right in and helped. They talked with children to reinforce what they had just learned. They gave the instructions over again to children who, for whatever reason, hadn't gotten them the first time(s). They took children to the bathroom so they could go there without getting into "trouble." They helped to clean up the room or the child that suffered some kind of accident. They sat beside a child (usually not their own...it works better) and calmed and focused the child so s/he could concentrate on what was going on in the classroom. They often went home exhausted and took a week to come back and do all that again. I, of course, got to do it five days a week...with different parents and different problems each day. It added a bit of interest to the challenges. >> By the way, when was the last time you spent -helping- a teacher for a day? >> It's quite an educational experience. It's the helping, the working with, the "we're in this together" attitude that makes all of us learn together. But that was not your experience. You, unfortunately, never found a teacher who was as able, educated, and focused on your child as you wished him/her to be. In general I think that public school is the better choice for a child because of all the social interaction that is a major part of a child's education. However, in your situation, I suspect that home schooling would have been the better choice for all involved. At home you could have planned the day to take advantage of your child's highs and lows. You could have moved him along at the speed he needed. You could have done so with full knowledge about, and full ability to allow for, his handicapping conditions. I'm sorry no one encouraged you to consider home schooling. Kristy On 3/6/10 11:05 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > I was not saying all teachers are lousy - just that there are MANY. > I would tend to offer that there are probably fewer Good teachers than > lousy ones. > > > Anytime I offered to provide support at a FG grade school - they turned me > down. This started with Kindergarten. Over time I figured out that they > did not want me to see what my son was doing in the class room. > They would claim I was being disruptive to the class when I would just be > sitting in the back of the room observing what was going on (no kids were > looking at me etc.) to see if I could get data to improve my son's IEP. > [He is high function autism/Aspergers.] The biggest problem they would > complain about is that he would blurt out answers before the teacher could > call > on anyone. Yes, he is smart! He could also read at above 10th grade level. > (They tested him in 3rd grade.) But at the same time claimed he was not > TAG material! Quote, "We do not have any placement that addresses his skill > level." The kindergarten teacher even told me to stop teaching him! SAY > WHAT?! > > We 'fired' two teachers while my son attended the FG school. > I would tell them, "You're fired." > They would indignantly respond, "You can't fire me!" > I would respond, "watch me!" > The next day my son would be in a different class or in the case of the > second occurrence, no longer enrolled in the school. > The first teacher we fired, was thought of being the 'best' teacher they > had. She refused to follow the IEP. > The second teacher also refused to follow the IEP. > > Needless to say, we left Oregon to enroll my son in better schools. > > My son was not the problem they claimed, when they followed the IEP. > They would let things escalate and create situations that would exploit my > son's ability to cope with his stresses in he class room. All of the > teachers he encountered there, did not care if he completed the assignments. > He > would ace their quizzes and tests anyway. They also failed to challenge > him, thus was bored most of the time. > > An additional testament as to just how poor the schools are in Oregon, when > I arrived in Oregon in the eighth grade, I was promptly given the task of > teaching my fellow students (giving assignments, creating and grading tests > etc.) while the teacher worked with the other half of the class attempting > to bring them up to speed. He was teaching them simple math, reading and > writing. Half the class had been passed forward without having learned the > basics. Where I came from, I had been the typical average student > (primarily a C and B student.) In Oregon I became an A student. I also > quickly > became bored and unchallenged. > > And they (Oregon school system) still wonder today why very few Oregon > students are accepted at the better schools around the country. LOL Gee, Ya' > think that it might be because they don''t do a very good job of preparing > the students? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/6/2010 11:04:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hannah at teleport.com writes: > > How perceptive of you to notice...yes, indeed, I was a teacher...and still > am tho at an entire different "grade level" and material. > > By the way, when was the last time you spent helping a teacher for a day? > It's quite an educational experience. > > Kristy > > > On 3/5/10 12:09 AM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > >> You sound like you are defending the lousy teachers that are so abundant >> today for some reason. Are or were you a teacher? >> >> The Grouch > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Mar 7 09:52:41 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:52:41 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:18:25 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <25496-4B93E7E9-8802@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Don.. there ain't any law that says that you even have to answer any of the questions all. and speaking for myself, I only answer questions that pertain to me. I don't really care about stuff like that, and some times toss it away ... That is my privilege. I know this is going to stir some folks up, but I did my time for Ole Uncle Sam, and I've still got the scares and aches and pains to prove it so, he ain't getting any thing more out of me. So section 8 me! That's my story and I'm sticking' to it! ~A~ {:?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100307/f58387d1/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 7 09:56:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: <25496-4B93E7E9-8802@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1714951144.11613121267984612266.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Section 8 is illegal in this forum. Speak away. Another Vet ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:52:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive Don.. there ain't any law that says that you even have to answer any of the questions all. and speaking for myself, I only answer questions that pertain to me. I don't really care about stuff like that, and some times toss it away ... That is my privilege. I know this is going to stir some folks up, but I did my time for Ole Uncle Sam, and I've still got the scares and aches and pains to prove it so, he ain't getting any thing more out of me. So section 8 me! That's my story and I'm sticking' to it! ~A~ {:?) From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Mar 7 09:57:20 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:57:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: Kristy Gravlin 's message of Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:02:17 -0600 Message-ID: <25502-4B93E900-2648@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Kristy ... if and when any teacher needs a hand, all they have to do is ask, just as long it has nothing to with politics and religion .. they can have all the help from me they want or need. ~A~ {:?) From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Mar 7 10:01:48 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 10:01:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Beware the "Census Form" You Receive In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <25498-4B93EA0C-6287@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Sorry Don .. everyone already knows that an OleHoss is a bit nutty, so there is no reason to add to it. And besides my toga need patching. ~A~ {:?) That's my story and I'm sticking to it! From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 17:11:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 17:11:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> Message-ID: <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> > A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put > Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led > the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: > A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the > Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on > the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's > glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was > quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan > dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) > > It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit > and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a > $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all > Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the > Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged > top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike > America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte > balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined > Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals > with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the > US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; > deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead > at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the > shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of > his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on > the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! > > Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved > is to desecrate his grave. > > Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan > was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and > say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive > for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead > -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and > Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved > Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy > Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated > against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and > war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a > genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and > the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an instant. > > So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as > phony as they come. From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sun Mar 7 18:47:50 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:47:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I love this, Walt. Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that we could blow up the planet a preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt politicians). I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put > Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led > the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: > A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the > Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on > the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's > glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was > quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan > dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) > > It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit > and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a > $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all > Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the > Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged > top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike > America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte > balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined > Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals > with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the > US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; > deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead > at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the > shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of > his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on > the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! > > Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved > is to desecrate his grave. > > Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan > was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and > say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive > for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead > -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and > Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved > Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy > Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated > against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and > war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a > genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and > the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an instant. > > So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as > phony as they come. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sun Mar 7 20:07:27 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 20:07:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Space Race In-Reply-To: <50a70.e392e2c.38c3e561@aol.com> References: <50a70.e392e2c.38c3e561@aol.com> Message-ID: <022201cabe74$de5e0d70$9b1a2850$@com> > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > And they (Oregon school system) still wonder today why very > few Oregon students are accepted at the better schools around > the country. With a claim like that, there ought to be loads of data to support it. Care to link to any of it or is this just another one of your opinions you'd rather not take the time to research, but invite anyone else to google? You know, I feel for your situation with your son and your own personal experience in school. However, these are nothing more than anecdotal. They don't serve to illustrate any sort of common occurrence or general direction or shortcoming of our school systems. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 21:17:21 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:17:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me so. I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- faced and florid. The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental movements. Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of exercising their racism. Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that courage and integrity today. WW On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: > I love this, Walt. > > Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my > parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. > > All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that > Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I > learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was > spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who > preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of > Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that > we could blow up the planet a > preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very > conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. > > Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to > me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would > help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of > defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt > politicians). > > I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. > Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a > game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > >> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: > >> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >> >> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >> >> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >> is to desecrate his grave. >> >> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >> instant. >> >> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >> phony as they come. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sun Mar 7 21:30:46 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:30:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473783.94980.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> What fun to have met such a TR impersonator, Walt, and what a great way to learn about the real TR! And, just as Lincoln, were he alive today, would disavow the Republican party, I bet that Jesus of Nazareth would do the same. After all, from what I understand of J of N's teachings, he was quite the champion of social reforms. Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 9:17:21 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me so. I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- faced and florid. The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental movements. Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of exercising their racism. Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that courage and integrity today. WW On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: > I love this, Walt. > > Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my > parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. > > All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that > Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I > learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was > spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who > preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of > Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that > we could blow up the planet a > preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very > conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. > > Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to > me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would > help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of > defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt > politicians). > > I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. > Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a > game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > >> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: > >> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >> >> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >> >> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >> is to desecrate his grave. >> >> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >> instant. >> >> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >> phony as they come. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 7 21:45:46 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 21:45:46 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: <473783.94980.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <473783.94980.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > And, just as Lincoln, were he alive today, would disavow the > Republican party, I bet that Jesus of Nazareth would do the same. > After all, from what I understand of J of N's teachings, he was > quite the champion of social reforms. Also, he had a great sympathy for widows, orphans, the poor, sick and powerless. He'd have a hard time winning office in today's party. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 9:17:21 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > > I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the > idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. > However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me so. > I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the > largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a > tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an > information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform > he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than > Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- > faced and florid. > The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, > and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting > group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's > contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental > movements. > Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one > book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom > he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and > inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the > process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, > he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step > back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in > the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you > come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately > tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest > into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be > postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded > that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post > office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to > drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of > exercising their racism. > Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that > courage and integrity today. > WW > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I love this, Walt. >> >> Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my >> parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. >> >> All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that >> Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I >> learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was >> spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who >> preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of >> Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that >> we could blow up the planet a >> preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very >> conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. >> >> Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to >> me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would >> help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of >> defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt >> politicians). >> >> I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. >> Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a >> game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take >> >>> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >>> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >>> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: >> >>> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >>> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >>> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >>> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >>> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >>> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >>> >>> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >>> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >>> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >>> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >>> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >>> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >>> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >>> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >>> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >>> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >>> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >>> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >>> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >>> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >>> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >>> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >>> >>> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >>> is to desecrate his grave. >>> >>> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >>> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >>> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >>> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >>> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >>> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >>> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >>> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >>> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >>> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >>> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >>> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >>> instant. >>> >>> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >>> phony as they come. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sun Mar 7 22:13:35 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:13:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <473783.94980.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <926735.51758.qm@web56101.mail.re3.yahoo.com> You betcha, as Sarah Palin would say! Not to mention the fact that J of N hung out with Ms. Magdelene... Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 9:45:46 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > > And, just as Lincoln, were he alive today, would disavow the > Republican party, I bet that Jesus of Nazareth would do the same. > After all, from what I understand of J of N's teachings, he was > quite the champion of social reforms. Also, he had a great sympathy for widows, orphans, the poor, sick and powerless. He'd have a hard time winning office in today's party. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 9:17:21 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take > > I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the > idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. > However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me so. > I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the > largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a > tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an > information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform > he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than > Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- > faced and florid. > The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, > and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting > group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's > contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental > movements. > Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one > book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom > he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and > inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the > process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, > he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step > back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in > the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you > come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately > tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest > into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be > postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded > that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post > office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to > drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of > exercising their racism. > Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that > courage and integrity today. > WW > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I love this, Walt. >> >> Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my >> parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. >> >> All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that >> Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I >> learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was >> spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who >> preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of >> Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that >> we could blow up the planet a >> preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very >> conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. >> >> Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to >> me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would >> help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of >> defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt >> politicians). >> >> I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. >> Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a >> game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take >> >>> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >>> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >>> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: >> >>> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >>> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >>> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >>> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >>> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >>> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >>> >>> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >>> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >>> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >>> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >>> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >>> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >>> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >>> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >>> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >>> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >>> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >>> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >>> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >>> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >>> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >>> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >>> >>> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >>> is to desecrate his grave. >>> >>> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >>> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >>> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >>> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >>> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >>> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >>> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >>> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >>> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >>> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >>> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >>> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >>> instant. >>> >>> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >>> phony as they come. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 7 22:51:29 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 22:51:29 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Quiz for People Who Know Everything In-Reply-To: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <376145.60295.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3707B158-20BC-4E58-B0D8-6607E6992AE5@verizon.net> On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:20 PM, mark oberzil wrote: 1. Name the one sport in which neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends. Got the boxing, however I wonder if debate is considered a "sport". 2. What famous North American landmark is constantly moving backward? The glaciers in Glacier National Park have been going backwards for the last few decades too, and I wonder if the California Street cable car would also qualify, it goes backwards half of the time, and since they run in multiples there is always one moving backwards. ... 7. There are 14 punctuation marks in English grammar. In publishing there is a difference between the hyphen and the dash, can that count for another punctuation? There are also a difference between single quotation marks and double quotation marks. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 7 23:07:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:07:27 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake References: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B94A22F.000006.01012@DON-B2514E06367> Don't think he ever did write anything, not even a Master's Degree Theses. I wish he would write something besides those Presidential Directives. -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 3/3/2010 12:36:42 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake Sorry, I don't think Obama has any spare time for writing right now. On Mar 3, 2010, at 12:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:54:04 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent > paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one > for him. > WW > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was >> right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against >> Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! >> >> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's >> argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so >> thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or >> just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >> >> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >> >> bob "what??" browning >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> >> >> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >> >> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >> Writer >> >> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >> >> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir >> that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly >> damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling >> public support for the war. >> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the >> worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, >> he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the >> existence of such weapons. >> >> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision >> to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential >> act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. >> 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin >> Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >> >> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to >> the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >> >> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous >> dictators," Rove wrote. >> >> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct >> in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls >> Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and >> significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his >> presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >> >> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >> came under withering criticism for the federal government's >> response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator >> Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who >> said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >> >> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >> >> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >> facts. >> >> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >> March 9 release. >> >> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100307/48792b5e/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Sun Mar 7 23:20:02 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:20:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B94A22F.000006.01012@DON-B2514E06367> References: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4B94A22F.000006.01012@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Are you wishing for something along the lines of crib notes on his palm? Katie On Mar 7, 2010, at 11:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > Don't think he ever did write anything, not even a Master's Degree > Theses. > > I wish he would write something besides those Presidential Directives. > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 3/3/2010 12:36:42 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Sorry, I don't think Obama has any spare time for writing right now. > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 12:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:54:04 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake >> >> Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent >> paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one >> for him. >> WW >> >> On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >>> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was >>> right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against >>> Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! >>> >>> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >>> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's >>> argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so >>> thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or >>> just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >>> >>> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >>> >>> bob "what??" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >>> >>> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >>> Writer >>> >>> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >>> >>> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir >>> that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly >>> damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling >>> public support for the war. >>> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >>> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >>> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the >>> worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, >>> he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the >>> existence of such weapons. >>> >>> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >>> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision >>> to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential >>> act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. >>> 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin >>> Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >>> >>> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >>> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to >>> the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >>> >>> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >>> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >>> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous >>> dictators," Rove wrote. >>> >>> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct >>> in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls >>> Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and >>> significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his >>> presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >>> >>> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >>> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >>> came under withering criticism for the federal government's >>> response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator >>> Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who >>> said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >>> >>> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >>> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >>> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >>> >>> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >>> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >>> facts. >>> >>> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >>> March 9 release. >>> >>> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 7 23:28:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 23:28:25 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Okay. I read his opinion. If I wanted to read opinions, I would rather read your opinions. At least you are available to ask for response. That author had nothing in the way of evidence. DID AL GORE START THE INTERNET? National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm High Performance Computing Act of 1991 introduced by Senator Al Gore Jr., as amended 1998. http://www.nitrd.gov/congressional/laws/HPC_Ac_as_amended_by_NGI_Research_Act_and_America_COMPETES_Act.pdf The person who pushed for the expansion of ARPANET to a larger number of education institutions and the inclusion of commercial traffic was Senator Al Gore. Before others in Congress saw the vision of the future, he was pushing for it. Did he invent it? No. Did he popularize the term "information super highway"? Maybe. Did he get Congress to authorize the system that we now call the internet? Yes. Did he make millions from his vision? Not while in public service. Are we better for the Internet? I think so. Gore was instrumental in getting the Internet started. Just as G. W. Bush was instrumental in getting the Iraqi War started. Of the two, the internet is a better legacy. David On Mar 6, 2010, at 11:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so that much is 100% true. > > Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new words often.) > > As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from-hiding?xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_url > > respectfully > > donkelly > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 06:12:38 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 06:12:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B9505D6.2010405@gmail.com> As a fiscal conservative I do disagree with Reagan's excessive spending (although it was a Democrat run congress, but that's another issue), but he was probably the first president since Johnson who truly reminded us that communism was (and still is) our enemy. You may not agree with how much he spent to fight the Soviet Union, but historians recently have been giving Reagan credit for bringing down the iron curtain. Whether or not this is true there are a few hundred million people who now live free, something they couldn't do twenty five years ago. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: >> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: >> > > >> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >> >> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >> >> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >> is to desecrate his grave. >> >> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an instant. >> >> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >> phony as they come. >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From Jamsm at aol.com Mon Mar 8 06:13:41 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:13:41 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Message-ID: I had my first access to ARPA (had access to several nets) in the 70's and has since continued. I attended a number of USENIX conferences in the early 80's. Each time I attended, there was a vote put forth by a few that wanted to expand the use of ARPA to businesses and commercial use. The over-whelming majority always voted NO. As it was, "The Net" was growing by leaps and bounds during that time frame with high technology companies and schools being added daily. I believe ARPA was no longer controlled by the government and had grown beyond the government's control. This was a time period of the nets in which everything was performed manually. (There were many small networks coming into existence in the 80's that had their own particular specialty subjects.) The mapping of the relationships of the major nodes of ARPA were maintained on a size C drafting paper (at our site, others were doing the same thing) which was used to locate how to access servers that had information that was being exchanged. (In '84 or '85 we started to use multiple size C sheets.) If someone had information to share, they would publicize the paths to the major nodes they were connected to. With that information you would attempt to make a connection to them using 'The Map'. It often took several attempts to reach the information and even after you started the data transfer you may have to start over because a node you were accessing through had gone down while you were using it. These updates for 'The Map' were sent out via email which contained a description where the new major node was to be placed on 'The Map'. There were several times I was called on to assist with making corrections to our copy of 'The Map' as it was very easy to make a mistake in transcribing some of the descriptions we received in the email as to where the new major node actually existed in relation to the other major nodes. The new additions to this map were occurring so rapidly that 'The Map' was always out of date (early 80's.) Today's Internet, is the combination of a number of nets from that time period. If Gore did in fact help get ARPA opened to the public, he still did not invent it; which he stupidly claimed and was promptly ridiculed for; even by the 'Left' news media. Were you old enough to pay attention to the news in those days? I sure remember when he opened his mouth and put his foot in it. Quote of Al Gore: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/goreinternet.htm Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to Sir Timothy John_Berners-Lee.He is an English computer scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of 1989." http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet [ Al Gore was an opportunist fool back then and still is! Also, he is getting rich off of other's efforts through the use of his public image. I am not saying that his public image is what made him wealthy but is a factor assisting him to become wealthy.] The Grouch In a message dated 3/8/2010 2:29:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: Okay. I read his opinion. If I wanted to read opinions, I would rather read your opinions. At least you are available to ask for response. That author had nothing in the way of evidence. DID AL GORE START THE INTERNET? National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm High Performance Computing Act of 1991 introduced by Senator Al Gore Jr., as amended 1998. http://www.nitrd.gov/congressional/laws/HPC_Ac_as_amended_by_NGI_Research_Ac t_and_America_COMPETES_Act.pdf The person who pushed for the expansion of ARPANET to a larger number of education institutions and the inclusion of commercial traffic was Senator Al Gore. Before others in Congress saw the vision of the future, he was pushing for it. Did he invent it? No. Did he popularize the term "information super highway"? Maybe. Did he get Congress to authorize the system that we now call the internet? Yes. Did he make millions from his vision? Not while in public service. Are we better for the Internet? I think so. Gore was instrumental in getting the Internet started. Just as G. W. Bush was instrumental in getting the Iraqi War started. Of the two, the internet is a better legacy. David On Mar 6, 2010, at 11:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so that much is 100% true. > > Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new words often.) > > As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from-hiding?xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_url > > respectfully > > donkelly > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 06:16:06 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 06:16:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B9506A6.60206@gmail.com> Walt, With all due respect, I doubt if someone is a impersonator of a historic figure that they would focus on a negative characteristic of the person they are pretending to be. I'm sure if someone was a Stalin impersonator they wouldn't talk about the massacre in the Ukraine. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the > idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. > However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me so. > I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the > largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a > tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an > information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform > he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than > Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- > faced and florid. > The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, > and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting > group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's > contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental > movements. > Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one > book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom > he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and > inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the > process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, > he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step > back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in > the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you > come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately > tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest > into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be > postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded > that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post > office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to > drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of > exercising their racism. > Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that > courage and integrity today. > WW > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: > > >> I love this, Walt. >> >> Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my >> parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. >> >> All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that >> Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I >> learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was >> spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who >> preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of >> Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that >> we could blow up the planet a >> preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very >> conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. >> >> Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to >> me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would >> help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of >> defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt >> politicians). >> >> I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. >> Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a >> game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take >> >> >>> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >>> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >>> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: >>> >>> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >>> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >>> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >>> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >>> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >>> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >>> >>> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >>> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >>> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >>> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >>> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >>> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >>> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >>> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >>> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >>> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >>> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >>> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >>> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >>> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >>> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >>> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >>> >>> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >>> is to desecrate his grave. >>> >>> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >>> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >>> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >>> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >>> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >>> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >>> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >>> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >>> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >>> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >>> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >>> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >>> instant. >>> >>> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >>> phony as they come. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 06:55:09 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 06:55:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake In-Reply-To: <4B94A22F.000006.01012@DON-B2514E06367> References: <806395106.10241891267646923856.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4B94A22F.000006.01012@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: At first reading, I thought you were referring to Bush! However, rest assured, Obama did write, does write, and God Willy, will write in the future And Rove, Gawd help us all, will spew to the bitter end. WW On Mar 7, 2010, at 11:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > Don't think he ever did write anything, not even a Master's Degree > Theses. > > I wish he would write something besides those Presidential Directives. > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 3/3/2010 12:36:42 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake > > Sorry, I don't think Obama has any spare time for writing right now. > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 12:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Hmmmmm, perhaps he could benefit by using Obama's ghost writer. >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 19:54:04 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Rove says he made a mistake >> >> Um... that depends on wether Bush II can actually write a coherent >> paragraph, let alone a book... Maybe his speechwriters can ghost one >> for him. >> WW >> >> On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >>> If I read it correctly, however, he seems to be saying he was >>> right, but he made a mistake in not pushing back harder against >>> Dubya's opponents ? ! ? ! >>> >>> In my view he must also be truly delusional if he believes history >>> will look favorably on him, Bush II, or Dick Cheney? Bush's >>> argument that there were weapons of mass destruction has been so >>> thoroughly demolished that Bush was either a knowing misleading or >>> just plain bullheadedness and a desire to punish Saddam. >>> >>> I wonder if Bush will ever write a memoir and tell the real truth!! >>> >>> bob "what??" browning >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Rove admits to error on Iraq as Bush strategist >>> >>> By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer Beth Fouhy, Associated Press >>> Writer >>> >>> Tue Mar 2, 9:36 pm ET >>> >>> NEW YORK ? Republican strategist Karl Rove says in a new memoir >>> that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq badly >>> damaged the Bush administration's credibility and led to dwindling >>> public support for the war. >>> The former White House political adviser blames himself for not >>> pushing back against claims that President George W. Bush had taken >>> the country to war under false pretenses, calling it one of the >>> worst mistakes he made during the Bush presidency. The president, >>> he adds, did not knowingly mislead the American public about the >>> existence of such weapons. >>> >>> In "Courage and Consequence," Rove argues that history will look >>> favorably on Bush's two-term presidency, particularly his decision >>> to invade Iraq. He calls the 2003 invasion the most consequential >>> act of the Bush presidency and a justifiable response to the Sept. >>> 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, even though al-Qaida and Osama bin >>> Laden, not Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, were responsible. >>> >>> In the run-up to the war, Bush and his national security team, >>> including Vice President Dick Cheney, attempted to link Saddam to >>> the attacks as a way to build support for the invasion. >>> >>> "Having seen how much carnage four airplanes could cause, Bush was >>> determined to do all he could to prevent the most powerful weapons >>> from falling into the hands of the world's most dangerous >>> dictators," Rove wrote. >>> >>> Rove depicts Bush as a courageous and resolute leader whose conduct >>> in office was forever shaped by the Sept. 11 attacks. He calls >>> Bush's achievements over two terms "impressive, durable and >>> significant" and says many of the controversies that weakened his >>> presidency were falsehoods perpetuated by political opponents. >>> >>> Rove staunchly defends Bush's handling of Hurricane Katrina, which >>> devastated states along the Gulf of Mexico in September 2005. Bush >>> came under withering criticism for the federal government's >>> response to the crisis; his memorable praise for FEMA administrator >>> Michael Brown ? "Heck of a job, Brownie" ? was fodder for those who >>> said it revealed the administration's detachment and incompetence. >>> >>> In the book, Rove blames state and local officials for botching >>> recovery efforts, particularly Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans >>> Mayor Ray Nagin, both Democrats. >>> >>> He also has sharp words for President Barack Obama, calling him a >>> stereotypical Chicago politician who plays fast and loose with the >>> facts. >>> >>> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book in advance of its >>> March 9 release. >>> >>> Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 06:57:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 06:57:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: References: <715407253.11423541267902781772.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <25BBA617-F740-4F52-A7FC-F69106F67268@teleport.com> Neatly and cogently put, David... but unfortunately, citing recorded fact has no effect on True Believers. WW On Mar 7, 2010, at 11:28 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Okay. I read his opinion. > > If I wanted to read opinions, I would rather read your opinions. > At least you are available to ask for response. That author had > nothing in the way of evidence. > > DID AL GORE START THE INTERNET? > > National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by > Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 > http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm > > High Performance Computing Act of 1991 introduced by Senator Al > Gore Jr., as amended 1998. > http://www.nitrd.gov/congressional/laws/ > HPC_Ac_as_amended_by_NGI_Research_Act_and_America_COMPETES_Act.pdf > > The person who pushed for the expansion of ARPANET to a larger > number of education institutions and the inclusion of commercial > traffic was Senator Al Gore. Before others in Congress saw the > vision of the future, he was pushing for it. > > Did he invent it? No. Did he popularize the term "information > super highway"? Maybe. Did he get Congress to authorize the > system that we now call the internet? Yes. > > Did he make millions from his vision? Not while in public > service. Are we better for the Internet? I think so. > > Gore was instrumental in getting the Internet started. Just as G. > W. Bush was instrumental in getting the Iraqi War started. Of the > two, the internet is a better legacy. > > David > > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 11:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> I saw AL Gore on live TV claim that he started the internet, so >> that much is 100% true. >> >> Did he mispake? (no problem English teachers. I make up new >> words often.) >> >> As for the rest of the records, Emil Milano summerizes them best. >> >> http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/al-gore-emerges-from- >> hiding?xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_url >> >> respectfully >> >> donkelly >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 07:35:35 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 07:35:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Ben Westlund Message-ID: <4B951947.3090600@gmail.com> If you haven't heard, we are without a state treasurer. Ben Westlund passed away yesterday. http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/03/democrats_republicans_remember.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 07:37:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:37:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, let's analyze the sentence: > "During my service in the United States Congress, I took > the initiative in creating the Internet." The first part of the sentence-- "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative..." provides the setting. Obviously whatever actions he took to "initiate" the internet were in the context of his service in the US Congress. What the Congress does is create legislation. Gore did, as a matter of record, initiate legislation relating to the Internet. The second part of the sentence:"... in creating the Internet." Badly stated, at worst. Taken in the context of Gore's work in the Congress, "I took the initiative" is clear enough; he bestirred himself to write enabling legislation about the Internet in the Congress, before other legislators did. As for "...in creating the Internet.", the verb is poorly chosen. "in the creation of the internet," would have at least implied that he participated with others in the official launching of the Internet. Far betterl... and far less vulnerable to cheese-paring analysis and facile ridicule... would have been something like, "...in writing enabling legislation to officially recognize and encourage the development and use of the Internet." That's perfectly clear, and incapable of distortion even by a Limbaugh. Unfortunately, it is also 15 words, many of them polysyllabic, and the average listener to speeches-- or even the lurking RNC hatchetmen-- would fall asleep halfway through it. In keeping it short and punchy, Gore did indeed put his foot in his mouth, carelessly condensing his real service down to three easily-- or willfully-- misinterpreted words. I very much doubt that any other legislator-- including the sainted Ronnie or the semi-sainted Bush Jr.-- could could come unscathed through the sort of obsessive and implacable scrutiny, nit-picking and gleeful trumpeting of his careless words that Gore has. And, at bottom, what is the underlying motivation behind this campaign of ridicule? Hmmmmm? Think it over. I'll wait. From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 07:48:58 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:48:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> Well, couldn't a representative or two take a similar claim? He would have only brought it forward in the senate. Also the president at the time would have signed something. I once created a bit of a international incident between Taipei and China. It some ways it lead to the student protests that ended in Tiananmen square. At the time I felt that it was something I did and was very sad. In reality it was only one brick in the wall. I think Al has hyped his claim a bit too much. OH, and have you heard this sound bite? http://www.breitbart.tv/rep-massa-blast-dems-he-was-set-up-hoyer-lied-may-re scind-resignation -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:37 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Well, let's analyze the sentence: > "During my service in the United States Congress, I took > the initiative in creating the Internet." The first part of the sentence-- "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative..." provides the setting. Obviously whatever actions he took to "initiate" the internet were in the context of his service in the US Congress. What the Congress does is create legislation. Gore did, as a matter of record, initiate legislation relating to the Internet. From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 07:55:39 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:55:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take In-Reply-To: <4B9506A6.60206@gmail.com> References: <362CA78DF6224E00B37742042AF176E4@kiddeliduhch6g> <8D20B66F-72F3-4B75-8734-FEBB7089C8BF@teleport.com> <979899.63322.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4B9506A6.60206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6860193A-B459-4D5D-8038-EE46C2587092@teleport.com> This gentleman is not merely an impersonator, he is also a scholar who has made Teddy Roosevelt-- and even Roosevelt's father and family-- his object of intense study for many years. New, scholarly studies of TR and his times continue to appear at a rate of more than one a year, and he has studied all of them-- and so is able to discuss any aspect of the man's history, character and private habits that you might care to bring up. Rather than read all that mountain of research myself, I am willing to take him at his word, and to accept his conclusion that TR was, given the context of those intolerant times, not a racist. Certainly ferocious in war, undeniably ruthless with cattle rustlers during his Western days, certainly an avid hunter of big game most of his life, an argumentative and bare-knuckle politician, brash, arrogant and uncultured to the fastidious sensibilities of the effete East-- but not a racist in the context of his time. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:16 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Walt, > > With all due respect, I doubt if someone is a impersonator of a > historic > figure that they would focus on a negative characteristic of the > person > they are pretending to be. I'm sure if someone was a Stalin > impersonator they wouldn't talk about the massacre in the Ukraine. > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> I didn't agree with one point of the article, however; namely the >> idea that Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. >> However, TR wasn't a racist. I talked to him today, and he told me >> so. >> I was attending a HUGE damn antiques show and sale in Portland-- the >> largest in the nation, supposedly, in two hours I covered maybe a >> tenth of it-- and about the middle of that bit, I found an >> information booth manned by TR himself, dressed in the same uniform >> he wore on San Juan Hill. He actually looked more convincing than >> Robin Williams did in "Night at the Museum," being rotund, round- >> faced and florid. >> The TR impersonator is a longtime scholar of the former president, >> and a member of a local Teddy Roosevelt commemorative and reenacting >> group, who go around the schools telling students about TR's >> contributions to the American labor, conservation and environmental >> movements. >> Among the attributes he mentioned, the real TR read an average of one >> book a day, surrounded himself with highly intelligent men (with whom >> he frequently argued), kept well abreast of the science and >> inventions of the time, and was determined to at least start the >> process of combating racism in America-- although, as a pragmatist, >> he realized that struggle was going to be two steps forward, one step >> back, but still a job that must be done. He was heartily detested in >> the South because of this attitude. Receiving the threat, "if you >> come down here, we'll shoot you," he made it a point to immediately >> tour the South. He was the first president to invite a black guest >> into the White House. When he appointed a black woman to be >> postmaster in one southern town, the state's Congressmen demanded >> that he fire her. If he did, TR said, he would also close that post >> office-- and they insisted, and he did, and so the townsfolk had to >> drive 40 miles to get their mail in exchange for for the privilege of >> exercising their racism. >> Yes, Teddy was a pistol. I wish we had some politicians of that >> courage and integrity today. >> WW >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Holly T. wrote: >> >> >>> I love this, Walt. >>> >>> Ronald Reagan is the reason I saw the light and left behind my >>> parents' political party in my 20s and became a Democrat. >>> >>> All my life to that point, I had heard from my parents that >>> Republicans made better use of our hard-earned tax money. Then, I >>> learned that the Reagan Administration spent more money than was >>> spent during the administrations of the all SIX presidents who >>> preceded him. And, I learned about what a huge percentage of >>> Reagan's budget senselessly went for Defense expenditures so that >>> we could blow up the planet a >>> preposterous number of times. All this didn't seem very >>> conservative to me, plus it all seemed rather stupid and corrupt. >>> >>> Rather than spend all that money on defense, it made more sense to >>> me to elect Democrats who spent money on social programs that would >>> help Americans rather than blow up people (and line the pockets of >>> defense contractors, big business leaders, and other corrupt >>> politicians). >>> >>> I like the idea of putting Ronnie's face on a $3 bill though. >>> Perhaps this bill can be used as part of the fake money used in a >>> game for precocious children called, "Politician-oply". >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 5:11:54 PM >>> Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Phony Money: A Canadian's take >>> >>> >>>> A Canadian correspondent's take on the Republican proposal to put >>>> Ronald Reagan's face on the $50 bill, replacing U.S. Grant, who led >>>> the Union armies to victory during the Civil War: >>>> >>>> A few years ago some of the more primitive primates on the >>>> Republican side of the House proposed putting Ride-Along Ronnie on >>>> the dime, replacing FDR, the champion of the Democratic Party's >>>> glory days. Even Nancy thought this was a bad idea, and it was >>>> quietly dropped. (I have a hilarious digital image of the Reagan >>>> dime that some joker created with Photoshop.) >>>> >>>> It's bad enough to name public institutions after such a half-wit >>>> and retrogressive a politician, but putting him on anything but a >>>> $3 bill would be a travesty. Anyone with a brain knows that all >>>> Reagan did as president was to dangerously up the ante with the >>>> Soviets in his first administration; cut taxes for the privileged >>>> top 2% of Americans, while overspending on the military; strike >>>> America's nose into all sorts of foolish places; gave Israel carte >>>> balance to f--k with the Arabs any way they wanted; undermined >>>> Central American sovereignty; committed treason by making deals >>>> with the Iranians to sabotage Jimmy Carter; smuggle drugs into the >>>> US that other people would then be mercilessly punished for; >>>> deregulate the very financial institutions that then charged ahead >>>> at full speed to ruin the American economy and leave it in the >>>> shambles it presently is; and tell bare-faced lies from one end of >>>> his presidency to the other. Never mind consecrating his memory on >>>> the $50 bill, he should have been impeached and horsewhipped! >>>> >>>> Since he's dead, about all we can do to treat Reagan as he deserved >>>> is to desecrate his grave. >>>> >>>> Even smart Republicans know this, and don't believe Ronald Reagan >>>> was a great president. If pressed, they might be more honest and >>>> say he was a great figurehead for retrograde politics. Their motive >>>> for honoring Reagan is simply to use him as a posthumous figurehead >>>> -- a counterweight for Democratic Party icons like Roosevelt and >>>> Kennedy, whose greatness they are jealous of. What truly beloved >>>> Republican presidents do most Americans know? None after Teddy >>>> Roosevelt-- who was a mixed proposition because he legislated >>>> against corporations, and was an unabashed imperialist, racist and >>>> war-monger. So you have to go all the way back to Lincoln for a >>>> genuine Republican saint. And Lincoln -- sympathetic to labour and >>>> the common man -- would have disavowed the modern party in an >>>> instant. >>>> >>>> So what the Republicans need is a *plaster saint.* And Reagan is as >>>> phony as they come. >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 8 07:57:43 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:57:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor Message-ID: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ good day folks in the grove. I would of used tinyurl, but I forgot to transfer it from my main page, however, if I am not to worn out after the crosswords in today big "O" this morning .. I will add it. One of my x-partners sent this bull tale to me this past weekend, and did the best I could do with my system without forwarding it.. it took about 15 mins or so. On thing webtv .. it is sure easy to cut and past. and speaking webtv ... Mr.Ed my new note book came this week end, I have to send it back, because somewhere along to line it was damaged. so I guess I'll go to sears and see what available. One of my friends pick one up at the salvation army awhile back, and it works just fine. Think I'll look there first, and if find one I'll see what the Wood-Chuck has to say about it. and Chuck, Mr Ross paid me off in some diabetic cookies. by the bye .... has anyone besides myself read or heard about a pending thunder storm today? Have A Good All ~A~ {:?) From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 08:12:39 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:12:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> References: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> Message-ID: <5436C2BE-9B5D-4BDD-BBBB-AD4EB709100C@teleport.com> On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:48 AM, Steven wrote: > Well, couldn't a representative or two take a similar claim? He > would have > only brought it forward in the senate. Note, he write legislation and pushed it. He didn't merely suggest, or sign a petition, or make an idle comment in the middle of a coffee break. > Also the president at the time would > have signed something. That depends on the ultimate fate of the legislation in question. Was it passed? Was it stonewalled? Was it tabled? Was it incorporated in other measures or bills? > > I once created a bit of a international incident between Taipei and > China. > It some ways it lead to the student protests that ended in > Tiananmen square. > At the time I felt that it was something I did and was very sad. In > reality > it was only one brick in the wall. Sounds interesting, nonetheless. Are you going to keep us on tenterhooks? If a butterfly flapping its wings in Central Park can cause a typhoon in China, surely the butterfly's actions are worthy of attention. > > I think Al has hyped his claim a bit too much. If he has claimed anything beyond his much-publicized and carelessly-worded quote below, certainly he did. But has he? Or has he clarified and qualified what he actually did? I am sure that anyone who digs into the actual, official record can cite chapter and verse to resolve this question. > > OH, and have you heard this sound bite? I really hope Massa doesn't dither. Whatever the truth or falsehood behind the events, nothing is more exasperating than a dramatic farewell that is rescinded. It looks insincere and calculated. Douglas MacArthur got it right-- when you go, go with a bang, and stay gone. > http://www.breitbart.tv/rep-massa-blast-dems-he-was-set-up-hoyer- > lied-may-re > scind-resignation > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:37 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat > > Well, let's analyze the sentence: > >> "During my service in the United States Congress, I took >> the initiative in creating the Internet." > > The first part of the sentence-- "During my service in the United > States Congress I took the initiative..." provides the setting. > Obviously whatever actions he took to "initiate" the internet were in > the context of his service in the US Congress. What the Congress does > is create legislation. Gore did, as a matter of record, initiate > legislation relating to the Internet. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 08:30:55 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:30:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world Message-ID: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> OK, Walt wanted to hear about it. This is what I wrote about 1989 so I would remember. If anyone wants to research it, please do. I have not found any info on a Mr. Fu in sports announcing as he said. He said he was the Howard Cosell of China. Nor have I found any direct link to political or social changes from this event. The year was 1978; television told us the world was a dangerous place. Nicaragua, El Salvador, Beirut, London, Guiana; journalists were getting killed for a story. I was young, I had a dream. I wanted to become a great Network Cameraman (world famous, of course). My specialty would be sports, I wasn't crazy. The 1984 Olympics in Los Ange-les was my goal. Maybe I could change the world from there, I was young. For a writer, there is excitement in a published book. A film producer, a released feature. For a videogra-pher (a term we joked about at the time) the excitement is in a live broadcast. Millions of persons are seeing right now what you see through your eyepiece. It's your 15 minutes of fame; your view is shared with the world. As for my goal, I made it to Los Angeles in 1981. I was shooting sports. (I camped in the desert and rode my motorcycle to Hollywood every day. I was filming for high school football games.) By 1984 I had managed to get buried in mud and fall down stairs while being a "One-Man-Band" (the camera-man carries all the equipment; camera, tape deck, light, etc. ~901bs.). I had missed being smashed by a falling tree, hit by two racecars, arrested by LAPD, burned alive in a forest fire, taken hostage. But the closest I got to working for ABC during the Olympics was when a Vice-President of Sports something-or-other called me at home offering me a job. It was a wrong number. So as I sat at home and watched the Olympics on TV. The phone rang. Video-It in Hollywood needed an edi-tor to put together 20-minute sports feeds for Taipei Televi-sion. 1 always felt a cameraman should be a good editor too. I took the job, and where is Taipei? Now, I've edited programs in most of the world's languages. Pictures are a universal language; the most diffi-culties usually come in communication with the client. I was introduced to Mr. Fu at 6:30 p.m. By 8:30 we were to have 20 minutes of material, with narration ready for satellite feed. Mr. Fu offered me a Coors from the six-pack he was carrying; I thought we were headed for mission impossible. In the edit bay Mr. Fu showed expertise in commu-nicating editing information via hand signals. For an hour and a half all he said was "There!" When I came up with an old mix technique I learned in college that saved us a 20 minute dub, he began to talk. He described himself as "The Taipei Howard Cosell. " Over the next few days, he began to rely on my cut-ting decisions. 1 even edited an interview in Chinese while he was in the bathroom. Taipei is an island off the coast of Mainland China. Both Taipei and Mainland China called themselves China. This has caused problems at places like the Olympics. "Will the athletes from China please stand up?" The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for archery was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete shooting the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the bow. It was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of the day. Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the middle of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have a reason for his decision and in the end he finally relented. The next day was the last I ever saw of Mr. Fu, the Olympics were drawing to a close. Mr. Fu came in that day with his six-pack as usua1. Once in the edit bay, instead of offering me a beer, he opened one and sat it in front of me. He said in his broken English, "You don know what you done, you don know what you done." He was right! Back home, I watched the closing ceremonies. As the closing credits rolled, I counted the names of people I knew. So much for my goal. All I did was edit stuff for some small country. Curt Goudy talked about the various milestones achieved during these Olympics. "...and for the first time a Mainland Chinese athlete was seen in uniform on Taipei Television." The athletic organization from both countries have decided on attending future events as Chinese Taipei and Mainland China thus allowing both teams to partici-pate. Mainland Chinese athletes gained the freedom to at-tend international meets. Four years later in China, students began a protest at a Beijing university. They wanted to communicate freely with students in other countries. They wanted free-doms like what the athletes had. They began a sit-in at Tiananmen Square. We all know what happened next, brought to us by TV. The same pictures we saw managed to make it to Russia. I think that is what started the changes in Eastern Europe. Like a Kent State, the people opened their eyes to what their government is capable of doing and vow to change things. The people stood up to the government. They knew of Tiananmen Square and knew they were risk-ing their lives. The soldiers also knew of Tiananmen Square, and their judgments were shaped by it. They could not shoot their own people. So Communism is out in Russia. The Berlin Wall has come down. Thousands of protestors were killed in China by soldiers who would be killed if they didn't shoot. The economy of the US is dismal because of a lack of mili-tary spending. George Bush is taking credit for toppling communism. All because I put one picture into one video. The edit heard around the world. All in all, I think I achieved my goal, but at what expense. Somehow it reminds me of "The Monkey's Paw." From khourym at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 08:46:57 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 08:46:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Free concert @ Pacific Tonight Message-ID: <3FC0808C-1315-49F6-A597-4534ADBB0587@verizon.net> Portland Youth Philharmonic Concert Mar 8, 2010, 7:30 PM Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center America's First Youth Orchestra Presents Free Concert Featuring Annual Concerto Competition Winner and Shostakovich Symphony No. 5 The Portland Youth Philharmonic, under the direction of Conductor and Music Director David Hattner, will present a free concert in the Taylor-Meade Performing Arts Center at Pacific University in Forest Grove on Monday, March 8, 2010 at 7:30 p.m. This concert will feature the winner of PYP's annual concerto competition, Natally Okhovat, performing Saint-Sa?ns Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso and Shostakovich's Symphony No. 5. Also on the program is a work by PYP alumnus, Kenji Bunch, hailed by the New York Times as a composer to watch. The event is free and open to the public. No tickets required. For more information, call 503-223-5939. It is a free preview of PYP's Winter Concert on March 13, 2010 at 7:30 p.m. in the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall. Founded in 1924, PYP is America's first youth orchestra. Musicians in the orchestra range in age from 12-23 and come from throughout NW Oregon and SW Washington. Auditions are held each year in June and August. Applications are available now. For more information, visit:portlandyouthphil.org. This announcement is courtesy of University Conference Services to inform University personnel of groups on campus. From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 08:56:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:56:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> Message-ID: Interesting, well composed and conveys the youthful mood and enthusiasm of the writer very nicely. This article should be tweaked and expanded somewhat for publication. Perhaps some journalism magazine, or news forum page. I wonder whatever happened to Mr. Fu? He probably had picked a pseudonym from an old Sax Rohmer novel, and hurriedly dropped out of the sports reporting field after the tofu hit the fan back home. Interesting! WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: > OK, Walt wanted to hear about it. This is what I wrote about 1989 > so I would > remember. If anyone wants to research it, please do. I have not > found any > info on a Mr. Fu in sports announcing as he said. He said he was > the Howard > Cosell of China. Nor have I found any direct link to political or > social > changes from this event. > > > > The year was 1978; television told us the world was a dangerous place. > Nicaragua, El Salvador, Beirut, London, Guiana; journalists were > getting > killed for a story. I was young, I had a dream. I wanted to become > a great > Network Cameraman (world famous, of course). My specialty would be > sports, I > wasn't crazy. The 1984 Olympics in Los Ange-les was my goal. Maybe > I could > change the world from there, I was young. > > For a writer, there is excitement in a published book. A film > producer, a > released feature. For a videogra-pher (a term we joked about at the > time) > the excitement is in a live broadcast. Millions of persons are > seeing right > now what you see through your eyepiece. It's your 15 minutes of > fame; your > view is shared with the world. > > As for my goal, I made it to Los Angeles in 1981. I was shooting > sports. (I > camped in the desert and rode my motorcycle to Hollywood every day. > I was > filming for high school football games.) > > By 1984 I had managed to get buried in mud and fall down stairs > while being > a "One-Man-Band" (the camera-man carries all the equipment; camera, > tape > deck, light, etc. ~901bs.). I had missed being smashed by a falling > tree, > hit by two racecars, arrested by LAPD, burned alive in a forest > fire, taken > hostage. > > But the closest I got to working for ABC during the Olympics was > when a > Vice-President of Sports something-or-other called me at home > offering me a > job. It was a wrong number. > > So as I sat at home and watched the Olympics on TV. The phone rang. > Video-It > in Hollywood needed an edi-tor to put together 20-minute sports > feeds for > Taipei Televi-sion. 1 always felt a cameraman should be a good > editor too. I > took the job, and where is Taipei? > > Now, I've edited programs in most of the world's languages. > Pictures are a > universal language; the most diffi-culties usually come in > communication > with the client. > > I was introduced to Mr. Fu at 6:30 p.m. By 8:30 we were to have 20 > minutes > of material, with narration ready for satellite feed. Mr. Fu > offered me a > Coors from the six-pack he was carrying; I thought we were headed for > mission impossible. > > In the edit bay Mr. Fu showed expertise in commu-nicating editing > information via hand signals. For an hour and a half all he said was > "There!" When I came up with an old mix technique I learned in > college that > saved us a 20 minute dub, he began to talk. He described himself as > "The > Taipei Howard Cosell. " > > Over the next few days, he began to rely on my cut-ting decisions. > 1 even > edited an interview in Chinese while he was in the bathroom. > > Taipei is an island off the coast of Mainland China. Both Taipei and > Mainland China called themselves China. This has caused problems at > places > like the Olympics. "Will the athletes from China please stand up?" > > The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for > archery was > a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete > shooting the > winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the > bow. It was > a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of the > day. Mr. > Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the > middle of a > zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have a > reason for > his decision and in the end he finally relented. > > The next day was the last I ever saw of Mr. Fu, the Olympics were > drawing to > a close. Mr. Fu came in that day with his six-pack as usua1. Once > in the > edit bay, instead of offering me a beer, he opened one and sat it > in front > of me. He said in his broken English, "You don know what you done, > you don > know what you done." He was right! > > Back home, I watched the closing ceremonies. As the closing credits > rolled, > I counted the names of people I knew. So much for my goal. All I > did was > edit stuff for some small country. > > Curt Goudy talked about the various milestones achieved during these > Olympics. "...and for the first time a Mainland Chinese athlete was > seen in > uniform on Taipei Television." The athletic organization from both > countries > have decided on attending future events as Chinese Taipei and > Mainland China > thus allowing both teams to partici-pate. Mainland Chinese athletes > gained > the freedom to at-tend international meets. > > Four years later in China, students began a protest at a Beijing > university. > They wanted to communicate freely with students in other countries. > They > wanted free-doms like what the athletes had. They began a sit-in at > Tiananmen Square. We all know what happened next, brought to us by TV. > > The same pictures we saw managed to make it to Russia. I think that > is what > started the changes in Eastern Europe. Like a Kent State, the > people opened > their eyes to what their government is capable of doing and vow to > change > things. The people stood up to the government. They knew of > Tiananmen Square > and knew they were risk-ing their lives. The soldiers also knew of > Tiananmen > Square, and their judgments were shaped by it. They could not shoot > their > own people. > > So Communism is out in Russia. The Berlin Wall has come down. > Thousands of > protestors were killed in China by soldiers who would be killed if > they > didn't shoot. The economy of the US is dismal because of a lack of > mili-tary > spending. George Bush is taking credit for toppling communism. All > because I > put one picture into one video. The edit heard around the world. > > All in all, I think I achieved my goal, but at what expense. > Somehow it > reminds me of "The Monkey's Paw." > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 8 09:05:43 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:05:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> References: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> Message-ID: <4B952E67.7070705@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100308/df8a8e3b/attachment.html From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 09:13:03 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:13:03 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <4B952E67.7070705@jurislex.com> References: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> <4B952E67.7070705@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> You link a commie rag and call me gullible. What a troll. From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:06 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Steven, some days you are just so damn gullible. Here's a little tip to Breitbart.tv, which you could have found on google in 2 minutes had you desired to check. And one has to wonder how much fact checking Breitbart did. Remember, fact checking is what separates the journalist from the mere blogger, who just parrots everything he or she hears and which fits the preconceived mindset of the blogger. http://mediamatters.org/blog/200909290034 bob "just the fact, ma'am" browning On 3/8/2010 7:48 AM, Steven wrote: OH, and have you heard this sound bite? http://www.breitbart.tv/rep-massa-blast-dems-he-was-set-up-hoyer-lied-may-re scind-resignation From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 8 09:14:54 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:14:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> References: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> <4B952E67.7070705@jurislex.com> <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> Message-ID: <4B95308E.9090102@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100308/9d105200/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 09:16:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:16:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> References: <000301cabed6$e5141da0$af3c58e0$@net> <4B952E67.7070705@jurislex.com> <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> Message-ID: Eh-heh.... so anybody who prints anything that contradicts your beliefs is a Commie? Den, Velkom to der Vorkers Paradise, Tovarich! WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Steven wrote: > You link a commie rag and call me gullible. What a troll. > > > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Bob Browning > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:06 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat > > > > Steven, some days you are just so damn gullible. Here's a little > tip to > Breitbart.tv, which you could have found on google in 2 minutes had > you > desired to check. And one has to wonder how much fact checking > Breitbart > did. Remember, fact checking is what separates the journalist from > the mere > blogger, who just parrots everything he or she hears and which fits > the > preconceived mindset of the blogger. > > http://mediamatters.org/blog/200909290034 > > bob "just the fact, ma'am" browning > > On 3/8/2010 7:48 AM, Steven wrote: > > > > OH, and have you heard this sound bite? > http://www.breitbart.tv/rep-massa-blast-dems-he-was-set-up-hoyer- > lied-may-re > scind-resignation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 8 09:51:55 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:51:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More good news ? ? ? ? Message-ID: <4B95393B.9050002@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100308/000ac45a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100308/000ac45a/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: healthday_logo_86.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2546 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100308/000ac45a/attachment.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 09:58:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:58:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] More good news ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4B95393B.9050002@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1696727658.11962251268071087048.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Interesting results to research and it ties in with a similar report a month ago about wine. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:51:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] More good news ? ? ? ? Here's some more good news, presuming, of course, that one does not have the mutation that predisposes alcoholism . . . .

bob "kompai" browning

Light Drinking Might Help Keep Women Slim

By Amanda Gardner
HealthDay Reporter 

MONDAY, March 8 (HealthDay News) -- Count staying slim as one of the apparent benefits of light-to-moderate alcohol consumption, at least for women.

New research found that women who drank the equivalent of one to two drinks a day were least likely to gain weight -- 30 percent less likely, in fact, than teetotalers.

"Our study results showed that middle-age and older women who have normal body weight initially and consume light-to-moderate amounts of alcohol could maintain their drinking habits without gaining more weight, compared with similar women who did not drink any alcohol," said study author Dr. Lu Wang, an epidemiologist with the division of preventive medicine at Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston.

The findings are published in the March 8 issue of Archives of Internal Medicine.

Previous evidence on the health benefits of alcohol have been mixed. Some research has found that men and, to a lesser extent, women who drink moderately over the long-term have a lower risk for heart disease.

But another study found that even moderate drinking might raise the risk for breast, liver and other cancers in women.

Wang and her colleagues followed 19,220 women, 39 years or older, for an average of 13 years. All participants started the study with a normal body-mass index.

Although, on average, the women all tended to gain weight as time progressed, abstainers gained the most. The amount of weight gained decreased as alcohol consumption went up, the study found.

The researchers said they were unable to draw conclusions about heavy drinkers because there were so few in the study and because these women also tended to smoke, indicating they had very different lifestyles from the other participants.

There could be any number of reasons for the findings, including different ways that women metabolize alcohol, compared with men.

Also, the researchers pointed out, women tend to substitute alcohol for other foods, whereas men tend to simply add alcohol to everything else they're ingesting.

"The impact of alcohol consumption on body weight needs to be considered in the context of energy balance," Wang explained. "Among women, those who regularly consume light-to-moderate alcohol usually have a lower energy intake from non-alcohol sources. On the other hand, alcohol intake tends to induce increased energy expenditure beyond energy contents of the consumed alcohol in women. Taken together, regular alcohol consumption in light-to-moderate amount may lead to a net energy loss among women."

Marianne Grant, a registered dietitian and health educator at the Texas A&M Health Science Center's Coastal Bend Health Education Center in Corpus Christi, said that "it's possible that women who are of healthy weight are not as efficient in metabolizing alcohol."

"But, as always, the message is to enjoy alcohol in moderation," she warned. "Don't go with this as a weight-loss method. The keystones of healthy nutrition still hold."

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has more on maintaining a healthy weight.

From phoenixacup at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 10:39:46 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:39:46 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] not exactly a tit for tat In-Reply-To: <21558-4B92B6C2-5684@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <21558-4B92B6C2-5684@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Are you talking about trilliums? Three petals, three leaves? Jane On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > not exactly a tit for tat, but it will do > Me and my katts hope all the folks in the grove will be enjoys the > sunshine today. > > Me thinks ... spring is in the air, cause an OleHoss and crew about to > abscond to the back 40 to check on my 6 Ter.....iums > now will some please fill in the blanks? > I know i'm not even close on the spelling, so help me out. Also will > someone please tell me why they are a State Protected Flower, and if > there is a fine of how $'s. for picking them. > ~A~ [:?) > > > http://home.att.net/~hideaway_extras/59/garfield.htm > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From phoenixacup at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 10:43:32 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:43:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More good news ? ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4B95393B.9050002@jurislex.com> References: <4B95393B.9050002@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, when women drink more than one drink a day, breast cancer rates go up. I counsel my women patients to drink one or fewer drinks a day. Jane B-P On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's some more good news, presuming, of course, that one does not have > the mutation that predisposes alcoholism . . . . > > bob "kompai" browning > > > [image: Yahoo! News] > > Light Drinking Might Help Keep Women Slim > *By Amanda Gardner* > *HealthDay Reporter* > > MONDAY, March 8 (HealthDay News) -- Count staying slim as one of the > apparent benefits of light-to-moderate alcohol consumption, at least for > women. > > New research found that women who drank the equivalent of one to two drinks > a day were least likely to gain weight -- 30 percent less likely, in fact, > than teetotalers. > > "Our study results showed that middle-age and older women who have normal > body weight initially and consume light-to-moderate amounts of alcohol > could maintain their drinking habits without gaining more weight, compared > with similar women who did not drink any alcohol," said study author Dr. Lu > Wang, an epidemiologist with the division of preventive medicine at Brigham > & Women's Hospital in Boston. > > The findings are published in the March 8 issue of *Archives of Internal > Medicine*. > > Previous evidence on the health benefits of alcohol have been mixed. Some > research has found that men and, to a lesser extent, women who drink > moderately over the long-term have a lower risk for heart disease. > > But another study found that even moderate drinking might raise the risk > for breast, liver and other cancers in women. > > Wang and her colleagues followed 19,220 women, 39 years or older, for an > average of 13 years. All participants started the study with a normal > body-mass index. > > Although, on average, the women all tended to gain weight as time > progressed, abstainers gained the most. The amount of weight gained > decreased as alcohol consumption went up, the study found. > > The researchers said they were unable to draw conclusions about heavy > drinkers because there were so few in the study and because these women also > tended to smoke, indicating they had very different lifestyles from the > other participants. > > There could be any number of reasons for the findings, including different > ways that women metabolize alcohol, compared with men. > > Also, the researchers pointed out, women tend to substitute alcohol for > other foods, whereas men tend to simply add alcohol to everything else > they're ingesting. > > "The impact of alcohol consumption on body weight needs to be considered in > the context of energy balance," Wang explained. "Among women, those who > regularly consume light-to-moderate alcohol usually have a lower energy > intake from non-alcohol sources. On the other hand, alcohol intake tends to > induce increased energy expenditure beyond energy contents of the consumed > alcohol in women. Taken together, regular alcohol consumption in > light-to-moderate amount may lead to a net energy loss among women." > > Marianne Grant, a registered dietitian and health educator at the Texas > A&M Health Science Center's Coastal Bend Health Education Center in Corpus > Christi, said that "it's possible that women who are of healthy weight are > not as efficient in metabolizing alcohol." > > "But, as always, the message is to enjoy alcohol in moderation," she > warned. "Don't go with this as a weight-loss method. The keystones of > healthy nutrition still hold." > The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has more on maintaining > a healthy weight. > > Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100308/bf68808c/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 2546 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100308/bf68808c/attachment.jpe From chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 10:48:01 2010 From: chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net (Julie Larson) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 10:48:01 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Ben Westlund In-Reply-To: <4B951947.3090600@gmail.com> References: <4B951947.3090600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01cabeef$e199e1a0$a4cda4e0$@net> He was a good person. Too bad there aren't more like him. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Adam Mayer Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Ben Westlund If you haven't heard, we are without a state treasurer. Ben Westlund passed away yesterday. http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/03/democrats_republicans_r emember.html _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 8 11:08:06 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:08:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bull Poop! In-Reply-To: <1474-4B8588D5-390@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <1474-4B8588D5-390@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4B954B16.7000103@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100308/8c0a454c/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Mar 8 11:09:06 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 11:09:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <028401cabef2$d3fd5b00$7bf81100$@com> Grouch, > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > Quote of Al Gore: "During my service in the United States > Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." > > http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/goreinternet.htm > > Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to > Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee. He is an English computer > scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the > World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of > 1989." > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet The ARPANet[1] does not equal the Internet[2] does not equal the World Wide Web[3]. The Internet was born out of ARPANet and other international, commercial, and educational networks. The WWW is a subset of the Internet, though many people mistakenly use the terms as synonyms. Yes, there were numerous use-specific networks prior to the Internet. No, Gore had nothing to do with them being setup. Yes, he was a key player in getting legislation passed that transformed the hodge-podge of networks into a single thing we call the Internet today. No, he did not create the World Wide Web. As you correctly copied-and-pasted, that credit goes to Tim Berners-Lee. 1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET 2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet 3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_wide_web What exactly is your point in continuing this ridiculous game of "oh no he didn't"? Jeff From edavie at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 12:09:31 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:09:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: With hail too! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by the bye .... has anyone besides myself read or heard about a pending thunder storm today? Have A Good All ~A~ {:<) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Mon Mar 8 13:38:36 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:38:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does anyone have any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light hiking in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) a plus. Thanks Grovenetters! Leslie From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Mon Mar 8 15:05:06 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 15:05:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> Message-ID: <609421.90195.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I love hiking Saddle Mountain on the way to the coast, but don't know how safe it would be in April. The loose shale on top can be pretty trecherous when wet. I also love hiking Eagle Creek in the Columbia Gorge. You might try going to Brightenbush Hot Springs and hiking there and then soaking in their mineral pools afterwards. Not terribly expensive and great fun. But, you can't be squeamish about soaking around a bunch of nudies. You can wear a bathing suit, though, if you prefer. Or hiking in Forest Park in PDX is lots of fun, perhaps followed up by happy hour goodies at Henry's or some of the more economical ethnic food options in Northwest. Happy Early Anniversary, Leslie! Holly ________________________________ From: Leslie.Neyman To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 1:38:36 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does anyone have any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light hiking in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) a plus. Thanks Grovenetters! Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 15:14:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:14:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <000401cabee2$9dca5610$d95f0230$@net> Message-ID: <463078071.12127551268090063864.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Bull poop isn't all that useless, it generates methane you can burn, and nutrients to the soil in your orchard. don From khourym at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 15:18:29 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:18:29 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> Message-ID: <81448E1F-76A6-42A3-B247-0AF5DBC308F9@verizon.net> How about into Portland? I love to check out the cultural pass from the library for the Chinese Gardens. Take MAX in for no driving/parking hassle. Wander in the gardens and have tea in the tea room there. Another idea is Carson Hot Springs in the gorge if you like to soak. Rustic, but relaxing. On Mar 8, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Leslie.Neyman wrote: > It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does > anyone have > any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light > hiking > in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) > a plus. > > Thanks Grovenetters! > > Leslie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 8 15:39:44 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 15:39:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:14:23 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <18329-4B958AC0-2073@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Don said ... Bull poop isn't all that useless, it generates methane you can burn, and nutrients to the soil in your orchard. ==== Don.. I think steer manure would benifishal, otherwise your going to a whloe lot of weeds. I only use chicken caause it has more poop to the punch. From christianamayer at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 16:07:15 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:07:15 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tuesday Snow Message-ID: Found this on Mark Nelson's weather blog. Here is what he said about Forest Grove and snow for Tuesday. * *There are several places where I think the snow level could be closer to sea level tomorrow evening (1-3? possible). Far Western Washington County and Columbia Counties: Forest Grove, Banks, Vernonia. The central Columbia River Gorge: Cascade Locks and Hood River Valley. Maybe the Lewis River Valley areas too (above Woodland, Yacolt etc?) Here is a link to the weather blog: http://www.kptv.com/weatherblog/index.html Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 16:12:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:12:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Not a bit. Did notice an odd snow flurry in Hillsboro, though. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > With hail too! > Ed > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > by the bye .... has anyone besides myself read or heard about a > pending > thunder storm today? > > Have A Good All > ~A~ {:<) > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 16:16:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:16:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <04A18009379D4100A6A8073F003E8AA6@Office> Message-ID: <83C3AADC-79CE-491D-A613-E7448F6EAAA3@teleport.com> Well, the Hagg Lake hiking trails are about as inexpensive and scenic as you can get nearby! Some of the county forest camps along the highway to Tillamook are also nice. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Leslie.Neyman wrote: > It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does > anyone have > any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? > Light hiking > in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) > a plus. > > Thanks Grovenetters! > > Leslie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 16:24:29 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <81448E1F-76A6-42A3-B247-0AF5DBC308F9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <279182.54643.qm@web84203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> One of our favorites is Happy Camp at Netarts, especially if you can get #9, which is possible in the off season.? It is situated right at the neck of Netarts Bay with amazing views of both the ocean and the bay, and the tide constandly roaring in and out.? It's a 2 mile walk up to Oceanside.? Or a longer, better walk is the spit at Bayocean, just over the hill from Netarts by Cape Meares.? At Bayocean, you can walk out on the bayside, which is nicely wooded, and return on the ocean side -especially lovely at low tide. ? Mark --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Martha Khoury wrote: From: Martha Khoury Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 11:18 PM How about into Portland? I love to check out the cultural pass from the library for the Chinese? Gardens. Take MAX in for no driving/parking hassle. Wander in the gardens and have tea in the tea room there. Another idea is Carson Hot Springs in the gorge if you like to soak.? Rustic, but relaxing. On Mar 8, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Leslie.Neyman wrote: > It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does? > anyone have > any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light? > hiking > in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room)? > a plus. > > Thanks Grovenetters! > > Leslie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 16:30:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:30:12 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <463078071.12127551268090063864.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <463078071.12127551268090063864.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Deja Moo: the strange sensation that you have heard the same BS before. On Mar 8, 2010, at 3:14 PM, donkelly wrote: > Bull poop isn't all that useless, it generates methane you can > burn, and nutrients to the soil in your orchard. > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Mon Mar 8 17:04:59 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 20:04:59 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat, net privacy and more Message-ID: <40269.2da9cb4c.38c6f8bb@aol.com> Jeff You are another of the new age netters that think they are god when it comes to technology. I don't live at the terminal - though my wife and son may say otherwise. The message was started then saved and when I returned, completed it. So you may have moved on or read it much later - so what! Email can also get delayed. Sometimes I see posts on Grovenet where the response to a post is received a day or more before the original post; other posts can appear days after a subject was not talked about. Sometimes, these can bring up additional points and the subject gets discussed further. As for my laziness, in regard to some of the terminology I had used; the terminology is what most will accept and will understand the point I was making. I may have been a little off with some terminology but my point still stands. Another time, you blasted me - privately- because I clicked 'reply'; the mail went to your inbox and you thought it was an intended private message. [If I send a message to someone on Gnet that is intended to be private, the subject line will say private.] Gee wiz, I am sorry I didn't check the 'To field' before sending. You are one of the few Gnetters that has their mail sent such that if you click reply, the compose message comes up with previous senders private email address. This is what is in my "Send To:" when I click reply from a Grove Net message from you: jeff at jeffhowden.com If you do not want people replying privately I suggest you change your email header that is being created so the 'reply To:' field is not prevented from being pointed at grovenet. Previously, you asked me to back up my statements with references - so this time (what you replied to below) I quoted statements to support my position and provided links to where I came up with my information and you blast me for it quoting. I provide a quote and give the reference and you still are not happy. How arrogant! You have attacked something in almost every one of my posts recently. This is a technique straight from the book "Rules for Radicals". [You must be one of the 'educated ones' as you use copious amounts of references from wikipedia. LOL.] You also take things in an extreme literal fashion verses trying to understand what people are saying. By the way, when I made a statement about using the 'privacy feature' of the newer features in IE aiding in providing protection from being tracked on the web, I was correct. Go look under help in IE what that feature does. Don't stop reading at the first section, which is the part of the privacy feature you assumed I referenced and then blasted me about. - continue to read about "InPrivate Filtering", the other part of the privacy feature: the FAQ reads: Quote: InPrivate Filtering helps prevent website content providers from collecting information about sites you visit. Here's how it works. Many web pages use content?such as advertisements, maps, or web analysis tools?from websites other than the one you are visiting. These websites are called content providers or third-party websites. When you visit a website with third-party content, some information about you is sent to the content provider. If a content provider offers content to a large number of the websites you visit, the content provider could develop a profile of your browsing preferences. Profiles of browsing preferences can be used in a variety of ways, including for analysis and serving targeted advertisements. Usually this third-party content is displayed seamlessly, such as in an embedded video or image. The content appears to originate from the website you originally went to, so you may not know that another website might be able to see where you are surfing. Web analysis or web measurement tools report website visitors' browsing habits, and are not always obvious to you. While these tools can sometimes appear as visible content (such as a visitor counter, for example), they are often not visible to users, as is often the case with web beacons. Web beacons are typically single-pixel transparent images whose sole purpose is to track website usage, and they do not appear as visible content. InPrivate Filtering works by analyzing web content on the webpages you visit, and if it sees the same content being used on a number of websites, it will give you the option to allow or block that content. You can also choose to have InPrivate Filtering automatically block any content provider or third-party website it detects, or you can choose to turn off InPrivate Filtering. end quote It states: Many webpages use content?such as advertisements, maps, or web analysis tools?from websites other than the one you are visiting. These websites are called content providers or third-party websites. When you visit a website with third-party content, some information about you is sent to the content provider. If a content provider offers content to a large number of the websites you visit, the content provider could develop a profile of your browsing preferences. Profiles of browsing preferences can be used in a variety of ways, including for analysis and serving targeted advertisements. Which is exactly what I had been talking about in the prior post about privacy. FAQ continues Quote: By default, InPrivate Filtering analyzes the websites you visit and the content providers they use, but does not automatically block them. You can choose to allow or block any content provider that InPrivate Filtering identifies as receiving information about your browsing. Alternatively, you can have InPrivate Filtering automatically block any content provider, or you can turn off InPrivate Filtering. end quote It states: You can have InPrivate Filtering automatically block any content provider... There are other cases that you have attempted to discredit me over which I could pursue and show your arrogance, but you are not worth the time and energy. You have mastered some of the techniques in the book "Rules for Radicals". I do not know if you have read the book, but you have learned some of the techniques discussed in the book somewhere. Are you a Troll, posting to attempt to start flame wars? Maybe you are just very literal - you need to lighten up. The Grouch In a message dated 3/8/2010 2:09:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, admin at jeffhowden.com writes: Grouch, > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > Quote of Al Gore: "During my service in the United States > Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." > > http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/goreinternet.htm > > Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to > Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee. He is an English computer > scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the > World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of > 1989." > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet The ARPANet[1] does not equal the Internet[2] does not equal the World Wide Web[3]. The Internet was born out of ARPANet and other international, commercial, and educational networks. The WWW is a subset of the Internet, though many people mistakenly use the terms as synonyms. Yes, there were numerous use-specific networks prior to the Internet. No, Gore had nothing to do with them being setup. Yes, he was a key player in getting legislation passed that transformed the hodge-podge of networks into a single thing we call the Internet today. No, he did not create the World Wide Web. As you correctly copied-and-pasted, that credit goes to Tim Berners-Lee. 1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET 2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet 3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_wide_web What exactly is your point in continuing this ridiculous game of "oh no he didn't"? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 18:21:04 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:21:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC16306-8D08-43D8-80C2-4CAFFD75C2C8@verizon.net> Please review the dates. Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee first proposal of World Wide Web - 1989. Senator Al Gore Jr, proposes NREN legislation - 1988. Without the benefit of time travel, Gore is ahead of Berners-Lee. Can we give him credit for seeing the potential and importance before those who came later? Since this legislation was offered more than once before it finally passed, the original sponsor generally would get the credit for the idea, not the President who signs it, or the members who finally do vote for it in 1991. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:13 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to Sir Timothy John_Berners-Lee.He is an English computer scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of 1989." > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet > ... > National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 > http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm From chuck at grovenet.net Mon Mar 8 18:33:37 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:33:37 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycling Fluorescent Bulbs In-Reply-To: <4DC16306-8D08-43D8-80C2-4CAFFD75C2C8@verizon.net> References: <4DC16306-8D08-43D8-80C2-4CAFFD75C2C8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B95B381.9010709@grovenet.net> I had to buy some new fluorescent bulbs today for my laundry room. Had no idea what to do with the old ones. My first gut reaction was to simply drop them in the can, and then shatter them. But then I wondered if I could recycle them in some way. Turns out you can. I called Waste Management and here's what they told me. 1. If the new ones come fully encased in a cardboard box, simply put the old ones in the same box and set it out next to your bin on trash day. 2. If they come in cellophane, like mine did, then wrap up the old one in newspaper and then set them out next to your bin on trash day. 3. Do not break them. They contain mercury and the broken glass could be hazardous to our trash men. 4. Do not put them inside the bin, but on the ground beside it. 5. Use a Magic Marker and label the package FLUORESCENT BULBS, so the guys know what they are handling. Easy as pie. Wrote it all up on the blog too. Thought you all might want to know - as I had no idea they would take them. chuck underwood http://forestgrovelive.com/recycling-fluorescent-bulbs/ From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 18:40:02 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:40:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: > ... > The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for archery was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete shooting the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the bow. It was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of the day. Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the middle of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have a reason for his decision and in the end he finally relented... I understand that you are referring to the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles. And that you are referring to the gold medal in either Men's or Women's individual archery. http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Writeups/Oly84/games_of_the_23rd_olympiad.htm I doubt that the writer of the article really meant to undercut your story, but the Gold medals went to Darrell Pace (USA) and Seo Hyang-Soon (ROK). Perhaps there is something in the story that needs to be revised? David From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 18:41:19 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:41:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycling Fluorescent Bulbs In-Reply-To: <4B95B381.9010709@grovenet.net> References: <4DC16306-8D08-43D8-80C2-4CAFFD75C2C8@verizon.net> <4B95B381.9010709@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <4B86AC5B-0961-44DF-B452-C89908F43721@teleport.com> Thanks, Chuck! I had been wondering about that myself. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:33 PM, chuck wrote: > I had to buy some new fluorescent bulbs today for my laundry room. > Had > no idea what to do with the old ones. My first gut reaction was to > simply drop them in the can, and then shatter them. But then I > wondered > if I could recycle them in some way. > > Turns out you can. I called Waste Management and here's what they > told > me. > > 1. If the new ones come fully encased in a cardboard box, simply put > the old ones in the same box and set it out next to your bin on > trash day. > 2. If they come in cellophane, like mine did, then wrap up the old > one > in newspaper and then set them out next to your bin on trash day. > 3. Do not break them. They contain mercury and the broken glass > could > be hazardous to our trash men. > 4. Do not put them inside the bin, but on the ground beside it. > 5. Use a Magic Marker and label the package FLUORESCENT BULBS, so the > guys know what they are handling. > > Easy as pie. > > Wrote it all up on the blog too. > > Thought you all might want to know - as I had no idea they would > take them. > > chuck underwood > http://forestgrovelive.com/recycling-fluorescent-bulbs/ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 18:45:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 02:45:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <4DC16306-8D08-43D8-80C2-4CAFFD75C2C8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2062848244.12222531268102752152.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Better recheck your dates. I was on the internet around 1985. Cost was $45.00 per month. There was no Yahoo and there was no Google- - - -the internet access was menu driven by categories and long lists of URL's. Made us crazy, but we still communicated by BB with Ireland and the UK. It started in a university of course, perhaps UCLA, but I forget where, and spread from there as military and university computers started linking with each other. As each loaded servers, users had more and more information to find. Gore was around some where (obviously) but not even a blip on the screen of the Apple II in 1985, or on the 1978 models of Osborn that we used. By the way, PC Jr. (big blue) was around then too, and I still own one. We might be talking about some official dates here, but that does not mean the internet started in 1989. We beat that at the University of Alaska by a mile, and we were interfaced with government and university computers then. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 02:21:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat Please review the dates. Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee first proposal of World Wide Web - 1989. Senator Al Gore Jr, proposes NREN legislation - 1988. Without the benefit of time travel, Gore is ahead of Berners-Lee. Can we give him credit for seeing the potential and importance before those who came later? Since this legislation was offered more than once before it finally passed, the original sponsor generally would get the credit for the idea, not the President who signs it, or the members who finally do vote for it in 1991. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:13 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to Sir Timothy John_Berners-Lee.He is an English computer scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of 1989." > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet > ... > National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 > http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 18:57:49 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:57:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> Message-ID: <00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net> Looks like it was the Silver that went to mainland china that day. "the silver to Li Lingiuan of the People's Republic of China." If only we had the net back when I wrote that. I wrote based on memory at the time and frankly didn't follow all the sports. The conversation on the video was in Chinese after all. They interviewed mainland athletes in civilian clothes, typically. The one shot I had of her shooting her winning shot was the issue. Her uniform was visible as the camera zoomed in. I simply felt that the shot warranted the 20 seconds on screen. Besides, we had nothing else to fill the space with, except maybe a crowd shot. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: > ... > The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for archery was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete shooting the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the bow. It was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of the day. Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the middle of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have a reason for his decision and in the end he finally relented... I understand that you are referring to the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles. And that you are referring to the gold medal in either Men's or Women's individual archery. http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Writeups/Oly84/games_of_the_23rd_olymp iad.htm I doubt that the writer of the article really meant to undercut your story, but the Gold medals went to Darrell Pace (USA) and Seo Hyang-Soon (ROK). Perhaps there is something in the story that needs to be revised? David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 19:04:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:04:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Recycling Fluorescent Bulbs In-Reply-To: <4B95B381.9010709@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <614937907.12229731268103856580.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Right on the money Chuck. Been following ways and means of cycling fleurescent lamps for about four years now. Especially about breaking them. While some of the mercury clings to the inside lining of the glass, arguably 99% of the mercury escapes when the tube is broken. After which time recycling what's left becomes rather meaningless. What I did not know was that waste management will now pick them up if we prep the package properly. This process will become incresingly important as incondescent bulbs are phased out, and led's phased in, which create their own new recycling issue. Chuck will figure that one out in a hot second. don ----- Original Message ----- From: chuck To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 02:33:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Recycling Fluorescent Bulbs I had to buy some new fluorescent bulbs today for my laundry room. Had no idea what to do with the old ones. My first gut reaction was to simply drop them in the can, and then shatter them. But then I wondered if I could recycle them in some way. Turns out you can. I called Waste Management and here's what they told me. 1. If the new ones come fully encased in a cardboard box, simply put the old ones in the same box and set it out next to your bin on trash day. 2. If they come in cellophane, like mine did, then wrap up the old one in newspaper and then set them out next to your bin on trash day. 3. Do not break them. They contain mercury and the broken glass could be hazardous to our trash men. 4. Do not put them inside the bin, but on the ground beside it. 5. Use a Magic Marker and label the package FLUORESCENT BULBS, so the guys know what they are handling. Easy as pie. Wrote it all up on the blog too. Thought you all might want to know - as I had no idea they would take them. chuck underwood http://forestgrovelive.com/recycling-fluorescent-bulbs/ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 19:06:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:06:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net> <00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net> Message-ID: <02F4A568-5D1F-4D80-A905-22B6D79D2017@teleport.com> I gather, then, that she was actually from Taiwan, and the PRC regime went ballistic when her disputed nationality was revealed on the screen? Or if she really was from the PRC, that the Taiwanese protested? This is not exactly clear from the story. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Steven wrote: > Looks like it was the Silver that went to mainland china that day. > "the silver to Li Lingiuan of the People's Republic of China." > If only we had the net back when I wrote that. > I wrote based on memory at the time and frankly didn't follow all the > sports. The conversation on the video was in Chinese after all. > They interviewed mainland athletes in civilian clothes, typically. > The one > shot I had of her shooting her winning shot was the issue. Her > uniform was > visible as the camera zoomed in. > I simply felt that the shot warranted the 20 seconds on screen. > Besides, we > had nothing else to fill the space with, except maybe a crowd shot. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:40 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: > >> ... >> The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for >> archery > was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete > shooting > the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the > bow. It > was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of > the day. > Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the > middle > of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have > a reason > for his decision and in the end he finally relented... > > I understand that you are referring to the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los > Angeles. And that you are referring to the gold medal in either > Men's or > Women's individual archery. > > http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Writeups/Oly84/ > games_of_the_23rd_olymp > iad.htm > > > I doubt that the writer of the article really meant to undercut > your story, > but the Gold medals went to Darrell Pace (USA) and Seo Hyang-Soon > (ROK). > Perhaps there is something in the story that needs to be revised? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 19:34:19 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:34:19 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <02F4A568-5D1F-4D80-A905-22B6D79D2017@teleport.com> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net><00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net><02F4A568-5D1F-4D80-A905-22B6D79D2017@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1776308889-1268105661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1636007551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just the opposite. She was mainland. Apparently what went on back home was that people in taiwan realized that they were seeing censored stuff. government came down on the TV station but the people asked why. The next election brought in a bunch of younger politicians. Both countries had been quite difficult to work with. Neither wanting to admit the other existed. What came of it was that athletes from both sides could compete and talk with each other more freely. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:06:56 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world I gather, then, that she was actually from Taiwan, and the PRC regime went ballistic when her disputed nationality was revealed on the screen? Or if she really was from the PRC, that the Taiwanese protested? This is not exactly clear from the story. WW On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Steven wrote: > Looks like it was the Silver that went to mainland china that day. > "the silver to Li Lingiuan of the People's Republic of China." > If only we had the net back when I wrote that. > I wrote based on memory at the time and frankly didn't follow all the > sports. The conversation on the video was in Chinese after all. > They interviewed mainland athletes in civilian clothes, typically. > The one > shot I had of her shooting her winning shot was the issue. Her > uniform was > visible as the camera zoomed in. > I simply felt that the shot warranted the 20 seconds on screen. > Besides, we > had nothing else to fill the space with, except maybe a crowd shot. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:40 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: > >> ... >> The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for >> archery > was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete > shooting > the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the > bow. It > was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of > the day. > Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the > middle > of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have > a reason > for his decision and in the end he finally relented... > > I understand that you are referring to the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los > Angeles. And that you are referring to the gold medal in either > Men's or > Women's individual archery. > > http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Writeups/Oly84/ > games_of_the_23rd_olymp > iad.htm > > > I doubt that the writer of the article really meant to undercut > your story, > but the Gold medals went to Darrell Pace (USA) and Seo Hyang-Soon > (ROK). > Perhaps there is something in the story that needs to be revised? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 19:53:40 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:53:40 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <1776308889-1268105661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1636007551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net><00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net><02F4A568-5D1F-4D80-A905-22B6D79D2017@teleport.com> <1776308889-1268105661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1636007551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <7BC7BEFC-6D26-4963-B3DD-7B4DA24A991C@verizon.net> While it isn't the Taipei, Taiwan TV program, there is an interesting piece on the 1984 Olympic archery events at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=archerytv#p/search/0/P3YRbESARDs Li appears at 06:41, 10:51-11:10, 14:04-14:10 Not really much of a uniform, you sort of needed to know who was from what country from the narration. Except that on the podium, Li was wearing a red shirt. There is a cameraman at 13:47, is that Steve? David On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Steve wrote: > Just the opposite. She was mainland. Apparently what went on back home was that people in taiwan realized that they were seeing censored stuff. government came down on the TV station but the people asked why. > The next election brought in a bunch of younger politicians. > Both countries had been quite difficult to work with. Neither wanting to admit the other existed. > What came of it was that athletes from both sides could compete and talk with each other more freely. From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 19:58:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:58:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <56634ACC-74F3-468A-96F8-4FD6A2A0B140@verizon.net> When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. First, start with a full grown bull, ... I don't think that would appeal as a job. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ From hannah at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 20:02:42 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:02:42 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Recycling Fluorescent Bulbs In-Reply-To: <4B95B381.9010709@grovenet.net> Message-ID: THANKS Chuck. I have several in the garage...I've been meaning to investigate what to do with them but "out of sight,...". Thanks for doing it for me. Kristy On 3/8/10 8:33 PM, "chuck" wrote: > I had to buy some new fluorescent bulbs today for my laundry room. Had > no idea what to do with the old ones. My first gut reaction was to > simply drop them in the can, and then shatter them. But then I wondered > if I could recycle them in some way. > > Turns out you can. I called Waste Management and here's what they told > me. > > 1. If the new ones come fully encased in a cardboard box, simply put > the old ones in the same box and set it out next to your bin on trash day. > 2. If they come in cellophane, like mine did, then wrap up the old one > in newspaper and then set them out next to your bin on trash day. > 3. Do not break them. They contain mercury and the broken glass could > be hazardous to our trash men. > 4. Do not put them inside the bin, but on the ground beside it. > 5. Use a Magic Marker and label the package FLUORESCENT BULBS, so the > guys know what they are handling. > > Easy as pie. > > Wrote it all up on the blog too. > > Thought you all might want to know - as I had no idea they would take them. > > chuck underwood > http://forestgrovelive.com/recycling-fluorescent-bulbs/ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 20:04:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 04:04:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <7BC7BEFC-6D26-4963-B3DD-7B4DA24A991C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1909332213.12257661268107480373.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, the guy was right. It is snowing in Cornelius. About archers, they can really bring it on. The archery club in Anchorage Alaska, mostly hunters, consistently beat the pistol shooters from the State Troopers and Sheriff's offices. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:53:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world While it isn't the Taipei, Taiwan TV program, there is an interesting piece on the 1984 Olympic archery events at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=archerytv#p/search/0/P3YRbESARDs Li appears at 06:41, 10:51-11:10, 14:04-14:10 Not really much of a uniform, you sort of needed to know who was from what country from the narration. Except that on the podium, Li was wearing a red shirt. There is a cameraman at 13:47, is that Steve? David On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Steve wrote: > Just the opposite. She was mainland. Apparently what went on back home was that people in taiwan realized that they were seeing censored stuff. government came down on the TV station but the people asked why. > The next election brought in a bunch of younger politicians. > Both countries had been quite difficult to work with. Neither wanting to admit the other existed. > What came of it was that athletes from both sides could compete and talk with each other more freely. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 21:21:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:21:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <2062848244.12222531268102752152.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2062848244.12222531268102752152.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A36EB4E-F690-4CF0-970A-388792410708@verizon.net> My dates appear to be correct for what they reference. i.e. Gore was active before WWW was proposed. Since the internet had three decades of incubation prior to this time, it had a large number of contributors and many significant creations. Because of that, it may not have a real "start time" and it may not have a single person who "started the internet". When you were connected in 1985, it appears that you would have been on MILNET, ARPANET, BITNET or CSNET. The T1 backbone didn't come until 1987 or so. Gore is involved by this time in the political arena, and by 1991 his legislation is signed into law. 1992: Internet Society chartered, WWW released, NSFNET backbone upgraded to T3. http://www.davesite.com/webstation/net-history4.shtml I agree, Gore did not invent the internet, any more than Columbus discovered America. But, given the importance of money and federal support to technology, he was more important than his detractors admit. Gore did recognize the importance of the internet before the www. Gore did 10x his fortune 2000-2007. He actually may have some skill in identifying trends and analyzing data. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Better recheck your dates. > > I was on the internet around 1985. Cost was $45.00 per month. There was no Yahoo and there was no Google- - - -the internet access was menu driven by categories and long lists of URL's. > > Made us crazy, but we still communicated by BB with Ireland and the UK. > > It started in a university of course, perhaps UCLA, but I forget where, and spread from there as military and university computers started linking with each other. As each loaded servers, users had more and more information to find. > > Gore was around some where (obviously) but not even a blip on the screen of the Apple II in 1985, or on the 1978 models of Osborn that we used. > > By the way, PC Jr. (big blue) was around then too, and I still own one. > > We might be talking about some official dates here, but that does not mean the internet started in 1989. We beat that at the University of Alaska by a mile, and we were interfaced with government and university computers then. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 02:21:04 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat > > Please review the dates. > > Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee first proposal of World Wide Web - 1989. > > Senator Al Gore Jr, proposes NREN legislation - 1988. > > Without the benefit of time travel, Gore is ahead of Berners-Lee. Can we give him credit for seeing the potential and importance before those who came later? > > Since this legislation was offered more than once before it finally passed, the original sponsor generally would get the credit for the idea, not the President who signs it, or the members who finally do vote for it in 1991. > > David > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:13 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> Quote: "The creation of the world wide web is credited to Sir Timothy John_Berners-Lee.He is an English computer scientist and professor at MIT; credited with inventing the World Wide Web and making the first proposal in March of 1989." >> >> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_the_inventor_of_the_internet >> ... >> National Research and Education Network (NREN) introduced 1988 by Senator Albert Gore Jr. Passed by Congress 1991 >> http://www.ericdigests.org/1992-4/nren.htm > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 21:24:49 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:24:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Representative Massa Says He's Being Forced out of Congress over Health Care Vote Message-ID: <4B95DBA1.2060909@gmail.com> Seems now that the Congressman is claiming that he was forced out of his seat because of how he voted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHnRF23FjQk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgdTNO2i0-M&feature=related Getting interesting.............. Adam From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 21:47:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:47:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <1776308889-1268105661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1636007551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <000001cabedc$baa3f3f0$2febdbd0$@net><00b301cabf34$4e4db300$eae91900$@net><02F4A568-5D1F-4D80-A905-22B6D79D2017@teleport.com> <1776308889-1268105661-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1636007551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: OK, thanks. Chinese politics are indeed convoluted, and tied up with centuries of ego-bombs rather than mere decades, as in this nation of short memories. On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Steve wrote: > Just the opposite. She was mainland. Apparently what went on back > home was that people in taiwan realized that they were seeing > censored stuff. government came down on the TV station but the > people asked why. > The next election brought in a bunch of younger politicians. > Both countries had been quite difficult to work with. Neither > wanting to admit the other existed. > What came of it was that athletes from both sides could compete and > talk with each other more freely. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:06:56 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world > > I gather, then, that she was actually from Taiwan, and the PRC regime > went ballistic when her disputed nationality was revealed on the > screen? Or if she really was from the PRC, that the Taiwanese > protested? This is not exactly clear from the story. > WW > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Steven wrote: > >> Looks like it was the Silver that went to mainland china that day. >> "the silver to Li Lingiuan of the People's Republic of China." >> If only we had the net back when I wrote that. >> I wrote based on memory at the time and frankly didn't follow all the >> sports. The conversation on the video was in Chinese after all. >> They interviewed mainland athletes in civilian clothes, typically. >> The one >> shot I had of her shooting her winning shot was the issue. Her >> uniform was >> visible as the camera zoomed in. >> I simply felt that the shot warranted the 20 seconds on screen. >> Besides, we >> had nothing else to fill the space with, except maybe a crowd shot. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:40 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world >> >> >> On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> ... >>> The day that the Mainland Chinese athlete won the gold medal for >>> archery >> was a turning point in history. I had found a shot of the athlete >> shooting >> the winning shot. A wide shot zooming to medium as he let loose the >> bow. It >> was a shaky hand held shot but I thought it was the high-light of >> the day. >> Mr. Fu wanted the shot out. I argued my point. You can't cut in the >> middle >> of a zoom shot and after all he is Chinese like you. He didn't have >> a reason >> for his decision and in the end he finally relented... >> >> I understand that you are referring to the 1984 Summer Olympics in >> Los >> Angeles. And that you are referring to the gold medal in either >> Men's or >> Women's individual archery. >> >> http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/Writeups/Oly84/ >> games_of_the_23rd_olymp >> iad.htm >> >> >> I doubt that the writer of the article really meant to undercut >> your story, >> but the Gold medals went to Darrell Pace (USA) and Seo Hyang-Soon >> (ROK). >> Perhaps there is something in the story that needs to be revised? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 21:49:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:49:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <56634ACC-74F3-468A-96F8-4FD6A2A0B140@verizon.net> References: <18333-4B951E77-696@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <56634ACC-74F3-468A-96F8-4FD6A2A0B140@verizon.net> Message-ID: Actually, I thought they started with an adolescent bull. Which would have even less career appeal, I would think. On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:58 PM, David Morelli wrote: > When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for > plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. > > First, start with a full grown bull, ... > > I don't think that would appeal as a job. > > David > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > >> http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 21:51:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:51:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: <1909332213.12257661268107480373.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1909332213.12257661268107480373.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well, the guy was right. It is snowing in Cornelius. > > About archers, they can really bring it on. The archery club in > Anchorage Alaska, mostly hunters, consistently beat the pistol > shooters from the State Troopers and Sheriff's offices. MORAL: Don't bring a pistol to a bow-and-arrow fight. ;^) From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 21:53:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 05:53:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat In-Reply-To: <4A36EB4E-F690-4CF0-970A-388792410708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1997447150.12289151268114002044.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> By 1989 there were about 100,000 servers connected online, and the word internet had been used since before 1984. But I will agree with you that part of this disagreement is probably symantics. If Gore was involved in any way at all, it must have been when "CERT" Cybernet Emergency Response Team, was formed, and the government was looking for ways to control the internet. Al may have invested wisely. But to clear up some of this, here is one timeline: INTERNET IN THE 1980's 1980 - Mark Andreesen begins to revolutionises the Web 1981 - ARPANET has 213 hosts and a new one is added every three weeks. 1982 - The term 'Internet' crops up. 1982 - 1987 Bob Kahn and Vint Cerf helped create TCP/IP, the common language of Internet computers. From ARPANET grew the internet we know today. 1984 - marked a boom in manufacturing of personal computers and and high end minicomputers. Reletively inexpensive desktop computers connected to powerful servers made it possible for companies to cheaply access the internet. 1984 - William Gibson coins the term "cyberspace". The number of Internet hosts exceeds 1,000. 1985 - Internet e-mail and newsgroups are now in many universities 1986 - Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio creates the first "Freenet" for the Society for Public Access Computing. 1987 - The number of Internet hosts exceeds 10,000. 1988 - Internet worm (virus) unleashed as users became concerned about privacy and security. New words, such as "hacker," "cracker" and" electronic break-in", are created. This was demonstrated in 1988 when when a malicious program called the "Internet Worm" temporarily disables approximately 6,000 of the 60,000 Internet hosts. 1988 - The Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT) is formed to address security concerns raised by the Worm. 1989 - System administrator turned author, Clifford Stoll, catches a group of Cyberspies, and writes the book "The Cuckoo's Egg." about them. The number of Internet hosts exceeded 100,000. I hope this helps donkelly From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 21:55:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 05:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Round the world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1867580783.12289671268114107730.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Great advice. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 05:51:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Round the world On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:04 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well, the guy was right. It is snowing in Cornelius. > > About archers, they can really bring it on. The archery club in > Anchorage Alaska, mostly hunters, consistently beat the pistol > shooters from the State Troopers and Sheriff's offices. MORAL: Don't bring a pistol to a bow-and-arrow fight. ;^) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 22:20:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 06:20:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <56634ACC-74F3-468A-96F8-4FD6A2A0B140@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1074639027.12294611268115640401.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The emigrants on the Oregon trail used oxen because they were stronger and more dureable than horses or mules. Strange we see no oxen around today. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:58:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. First, start with a full grown bull, ... I don't think that would appeal as a job. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 22:28:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 22:28:52 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <1074639027.12294611268115640401.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1074639027.12294611268115640401.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2D0943ED-CC7D-4CFB-B98C-9F847751DC78@teleport.com> On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > The emigrants on the Oregon trail used oxen because they were > stronger and more dureable than horses or mules. > > Strange we see no oxen around today. I saw them written up in Mother Earth News years ago. apparently there are some small farmers bringing them back in the east. Although strong and durable and cheaper to feed (mostly hay rather than expensive grain), oxen have a couple of disadvantages... they are slower than horses, and they have to rest periodically throughout the day to chew their cud. Otherwise they can't digest their food properly. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:58:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor > > When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for > plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. > > First, start with a full grown bull, ... > > I don't think that would appeal as a job. > > David > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > >> http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 22:39:05 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 06:39:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <2D0943ED-CC7D-4CFB-B98C-9F847751DC78@teleport.com> Message-ID: <602234856.12297561268116745382.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Sounds right. They are as much of a symbol of western movement as the Conastoga Wagon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 06:28:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > The emigrants on the Oregon trail used oxen because they were > stronger and more dureable than horses or mules. > > Strange we see no oxen around today. I saw them written up in Mother Earth News years ago. apparently there are some small farmers bringing them back in the east. Although strong and durable and cheaper to feed (mostly hay rather than expensive grain), oxen have a couple of disadvantages... they are slower than horses, and they have to rest periodically throughout the day to chew their cud. Otherwise they can't digest their food properly. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:58:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor > > When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for > plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. > > First, start with a full grown bull, ... > > I don't think that would appeal as a job. > > David > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > >> http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 8 22:51:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 22:51:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <602234856.12297561268116745382.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <602234856.12297561268116745382.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3B0C3211-122E-43BA-BE10-6DC62C5B79FC@teleport.com> Horses are prone to a number of equine complaints, and under prolonged stress they tended to die at inopportune moments. But oxen, during a desert passage, could be goaded on until they literally dropped in their tracks. Also, Indians desiring to improve their herds naturally tried to steal horses from night camps, making a quick getaway. Oxen they merely regarded as slow food animals, and inferior to bison at that. And it is hard to imagine anyone trying to make a quick getaway when rustling oxen. A posse on foot could catch up to them. On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:39 PM, donkelly wrote: > Sounds right. They are as much of a symbol of western movement as > the Conastoga Wagon. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 06:28:52 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The emigrants on the Oregon trail used oxen because they were >> stronger and more dureable than horses or mules. >> >> Strange we see no oxen around today. > > I saw them written up in Mother Earth News years ago. apparently > there are some small farmers bringing them back in the east. > > Although strong and durable and cheaper to feed (mostly hay rather > than expensive grain), oxen have a couple of disadvantages... they > are slower than horses, and they have to rest periodically throughout > the day to chew their cud. Otherwise they can't digest their food > properly. > >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Morelli >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:58:18 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor >> >> When I see a bull, I am often reminded that farmers used oxen for >> plow animals. And I remember how they got oxen. >> >> First, start with a full grown bull, ... >> >> I don't think that would appeal as a job. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:57 AM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: >> >>> http://community-2.webtv.net/OleHossTreeFarm/badge/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Mar 8 22:55:27 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 22:55:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat, net privacy and more In-Reply-To: <40269.2da9cb4c.38c6f8bb@aol.com> References: <40269.2da9cb4c.38c6f8bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <030001cabf55$80886bf0$819943d0$@com> Grouch, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > You are another of the new age netters that think they are god when > it comes to technology. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm neither a "new age netter", nor think I'm god when it comes to technology. I realize my fallibility when it comes to many subject matters, but find myself compelled to respond when I hear others preach on certain subjects as though what they say is gospel truth. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Another time, you blasted me - privately- because I clicked > 'reply'; the mail went to your inbox and you thought it was an > intended private message. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I did not "blast" you. I merely informed you that I didn't have any desire to have a private discussion with you about any subject matter. Since you brought it up, here's that full response quoted: -------------------------- Begin Quote ------------------------------- Please do not reply to me directly in the future. I don't wish to have a private discourse with you about any subject. > From: Jamsm at aol.com [mailto:Jamsm at aol.com] > > Remember, he also had the unusual foresight to be the first to claim > to be the inventor of the Internet. He didn't claim to be the inventor of the Internet. That falsity, created by the media and the GOP, has been so thoroughly debunked it's ridiculous. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp http://sethf.com/gore/ http://mediamatters.org/research/200812050004 --------------------------- End Quote -------------------------------- Is it possible you've got this image of who/what I am and it's affecting your ability to have a non-aggressive conversation with me? You've accused me of taking things too literally sometimes so maybe that's some advice you could apply to yourself as well? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [If I send a message to someone on Gnet that is intended to be > private, the subject line will say private.] [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I do something very similar, for what it's worth. However, how would I know you made that a practice if I've never received an intentional private message labeled as such? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] Gee wiz, I am sorry I didn't check the 'To field' before > sending. You are one of the few Gnetters that has their mail sent > such that if you click reply, the compose message comes up with > previous senders private email address. This is what is in my "Send > To:" when I click reply from a Grove Net message from you: > jeff at jeffhowden.com If you do not want people replying privately I > suggest you change your email header that is being created so the > 'reply To:' field is not prevented from being pointed at grovenet. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Using the reply-to header for *my* outgoing email is completely legitimate (and in my case necessary). There are options in MailMan (the listserv software used for this list) that make my use of a reply-to header a non-issue. http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin/node11.html It's rarely been an issue on the numerous lists I used to subscribe to, so I know it's not a change I'm forced to make on my end. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Previously, you asked me to back up my statements with references - > so this time (what you replied to below) I quoted statements to > support my position and provided links to where I came up with my > information and you blast me for it quoting. I provide a quote and > give the reference and you still are not happy. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I think it's reasonable to always back up statements (that without corroboration are just opinion) with references. You'll notice I do my best to practice what I preach. However, I didn't "blast" you. I merely disagreed with some of what you said, yet agreed with other parts of what you said. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] How arrogant! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I acknowledge your position. My position is I'm just correcting what I see to be misunderstandings, misstatements, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > You have attacked something in almost every one of my posts > recently. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm sorry it seems that way. That is not my intention. There are times where you've (intentionally or not, I don't know) attempted to call me out on the list and then completely misquoted what I said. Do you expect that I'm going to just politely be quiet when you do that? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] This is a technique straight from the book "Rules for > Radicals". [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I wouldn't know as I haven't read it. I'll add it to my reading list though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] [You must be one of the 'educated ones' as you use copious > amounts of references from wikipedia. LOL.] [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I actually prefer Wikipedia for several reasons: 1) The information isn't just from a single source (ie, all democrat/republican, all conservative/liberal, etc.), but is from multiple sources *and* peer-reviewed. As a result it's usually less biased and less "steered" to a particular conclusion. It's also usually written by subject matter experts so contains lots of good info (and links) for the case it's making. 2) It's usually written in language that "every man" can understand unlike the language on some of the news sites and blogs. 3) Comments aren't allowed so you don't get all sorts of anonymous bickering, trolling, name-calling, etc. that detracts from the information you're there to gather in the first place. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] You also take things in an extreme literal fashion verses > trying to understand what people are saying. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If I don't know you personally, can't see your body language, can't hear your tone of voice, etc., how else am I to take things except at face value (what you call "extreme literal fashion")? Must I try to "deriddle" and find the hidden fortune in everything that's said? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > By the way, when I made a statement about using the 'privacy > feature' of the newer features in IE aiding in providing protection > from being tracked on the web, I was correct. Go look under help in > IE what that feature does. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, insofar as IE is concerned, you are absolutely correct. I was (it was implied) speaking about Firefox where what I described is precisely how private browsing works. I don't use IE except to test things so I didn't reply specifically with that in mind. In my defense, you didn't specify what browser you were specifically referring to so I defaulted to a) what I use and b) what you'd referenced specifically earlier. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Don't stop reading at the first section, which is the part of the > privacy feature you assumed I referenced [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I actually didn't make any assumptions. I took the words you used and applied them both to my knowledge and then to a little bit of googling to make sure I was thinking correctly. I wasn't aware of the IE8 specific InPrivate Filtering capability and it didn't come up in my search. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] and then blasted me about. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< There's that being "blasted" thing again. You know, it's been a very, very long time since I've lit any sort of fireworks that had a significant bang, yet I feel like you think I'm tossing lit M80's at you or something. ;P ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > It states: > > "Many webpages use content?such as advertisements, maps, or web > analysis tools?from websites other than the one you are visiting. > These websites are called content providers or third-party websites. > When you visit a website with third-party content, some information > about you is sent to the content provider. If a content provider > offers content to a large number of the websites you visit, the > content provider could develop a profile of your browsing > preferences. Profiles of browsing preferences can be used in a > variety of ways, including for analysis and serving targeted > advertisements." > > Which is exactly what I had been talking about in the prior post > about privacy. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yes, agreed. It's fantastic that Microsoft has beaten the other browser vendors to the punch with an innovative piece of privacy technology like this. Now, if only they'd take it a step further and aggregate data across its users so they'd be able to detect the content that should be blocked sooner. I suppose some "privacy experts" would think this collection/aggregation of data would itself pose privacy issues. A word of warning though, the flaw with this method of protection is it doesn't start until it's been able to identify a pattern. By then, it's already too late for the places you've already been, but is able to at least increase your anonymity (somewhat) to future places you'll visit within the same browsing session. Worse, it has to "relearn" these patterns for each and every InPrivate Filtering session you start. "Note: Because InPrivate Filtering is designed to watch for and block only third-party content that appears with a high frequency across sites you visit, no content is blocked until such levels are detected, nor is any such content blocked which is served directly by the site you are visiting. Depending on your web browsing activity and sites visited, the amount of time it can take before such content is automatically blocked can vary widely. However, at any time, you can customize which third-party content is blocked or allowed in the InPrivate Filtering Settings option from the Safety menu." http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/features/safer.aspx (click "InPrivate Filtering" on the left) That last sentence is the key. For sites you'd like to always block from using third party data, add them and they'll always be blocked. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > There are other cases that you have attempted to discredit me over > which I could pursue and show your arrogance, but you are not worth > the time and energy. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Oh, but you've already put so much time and energy into this response. Why not just a little bit more? ;) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] You have mastered some of the techniques in the book "Rules > for Radicals". I do not know if you have read the book, but you > have learned some of the techniques discussed in the book somewhere. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That sounds like a compliment, but I don't think that's how you mean it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Are you a Troll, posting to attempt to start flame wars? Maybe > you are just very literal - you need to lighten up. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I enjoy a healthy debate. I enjoy playing devil's advocate. I don't enjoy flame wars and I don't fancy myself a troll. Perhaps I do take things (too) literally, but with simple black text on a white page, what else do I have to work with? I don't agree that I need to lighten up. You're welcome to think so if you like though. Jeff From hannah at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 08:12:45 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:12:45 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least Message-ID: Are You a Type D Personality? You?re probably aware of whether you tend toward a type A or type B personality, since those labels are part of our lexicon. What you may not know, however, is that there is a third type -- type D -- and it?s not a great category to find yourself in. The D stands for distress, and a growing body of research links this personality type with a variety of health risks and even early death -- so it may be especially important for these inhibited and gloomy folks to do everything they can to lighten up. Remember Eeyore -- the sad, self-conscious donkey character in Winnie-the-Pooh? To my mind, he is a perfect illustration of the type D personality. He always expected the worst and therefore, that?s what he usually got. Traits associated with this personality type include social inhibition, a negative self-image, depressed mood, hostility, tension, chronic anger and a tendency to overreact to stressful events. Type D & Death Risk It?s already known that having this type D personality elevates risk for people who have had heart attacks, cardiac bypass surgery and/or stent implants. In new research from the University of Tilburg in the Netherlands, scientists set out to determine the impact of these characteristics on people with a common condition called peripheral artery disease (PAD), a circulatory problem in which narrowed arteries reduce blood flow to the limbs. People who have PAD have four to five times greater risk for heart attack and stroke. Researchers asked 184 patients (average age 65) diagnosed with PAD to fill out a 14-item personality questionnaire to assess character traits, such as negativity and social inhibition. They rated statements such as "I would rather keep people at a distance" and "I often find myself worrying about something" as false or true on a scale of zero to four. During the next four years, 16 patients (9%) died -- six of cardiovascular disease, seven of cancer and one each from emphysema, pneumonia and acute pancreatitis. After factoring in other variables such as age, gender, diabetes and kidney disease, investigators learned that those with type D personalities were more than three times as likely to have died as those who were Type A or B. How Distress Raises Risk There are numerous pathways linking this particular personality type with poor health outcomes, I learned from study coauthor Johan Denollet, PhD, a professor of medical psychology at Tilburg University. Some are physical, other behavioral. For instance, Type D individuals tend to... Experience chronic anxiety and negativity. Living in such a state has a variety of physical effects on your body, none beneficial. Chronic stress drives up levels of inflammatory proteins called cytokines, which leads to increased oxidative stress and contributes to disease. The adrenal glands respond to stress by pumping out cortisol, the hormone that helps us meet perceived threats. Having high and prolonged levels of cortisol in the bloodstream causes serious problems, including blood sugar imbalances, reduced immunity, slower wound healing and increased abdominal fat. Have poor health habits. Research has shown that people with type D personalities often neglect their health by eating improperly, not having medical checkups and being sedentary. Are unlikely to be proactive in seeking medical care. Perhaps because they are unable to express their emotions and are tense, insecure and uncomfortable in social situations, type D individuals are often slow to seek the medical help they need. In one study, type D patients with chronic heart failure experienced more cardiac symptoms and worried more about them than other people but, paradoxically, were less likely to discuss them with health-care professionals. Other research demonstrates that heart failure patients with "inadequate consultation behavior" face a six-fold increased risk for impaired health. What Can Help Generally speaking, you can?t change your personality -- but if you recognize these traits in yourself or a loved one, there are plenty of things you can do to address the issues and minimize the impact on your health. For example, Dr. Denollet notes that type D personalities are more likely to experience anxiety and depression -- and points out that these can be managed to a significant degree with counseling and/or medication. Other strategies include... Adopting healthier lifestyle behaviors, such as better diet and regular exercise. Participating in programs or counseling to conquer addictions, such as smoking or alcohol abuse, or to improve social skills and learn to relax. Using techniques such as guided imagery, breathing exercises, meditation, tai chi and yoga to help manage stress and mood and learn to control anger and hostility. While you can?t change who you are, if you have a type D personality, you can take these concrete steps to make yourself healthier and, I'll bet, happier. Source(s): Johan Denollet, PhD, professor of medical psychology, Tilburg University, Tilburg, The Netherlands. From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 9 09:10:42 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 09:10:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100309/44e870fc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100309/44e870fc/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Mar 9 09:15:15 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:15:15 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D53AF833@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Actually, as reported in the Skagway newspaper a few years ago when she visited that small city, the story she told the reporter at that time was that her brother went to Juneau on a ferry...not to Canada. So, perhaps the real determinant of the story is the journalist she is talking to. This item was on MSNBC last night.... --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Browning Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:11 AM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? I guess single payor health care is only so bad when one cannot take advantage of it ! ! ! bob "rules, what rules? I ain't subject to no stinkin' rules!!" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s [cid:image001.gif at 01CABF69.076AEE00] Palin Crossed Border For Canadian Health Care Sam Stein Sam Stein Mon Mar 8, 12:26 pm ET Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system. "We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?" The irony, one guesses, is that Palin now views Canada's health care system as revolting: with its government-run administration and 'death-panel'-like rationing. Clearly, however, she and her family once found it more alluring than, at the very least, the coverage available in rural Alaska. Up to the age of six, Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse. Officials at several hospitals in that area declined to give out information on patient visits. Copyright (c) 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: image001.gif Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100309/c0e475b4/attachment.gif From Jamsm at aol.com Tue Mar 9 09:28:00 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:28:00 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: Raises questions like 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. The Grouch In a message dated 3/9/2010 12:10:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rab at jurislex.com writes: I guess single payor health care is only so bad when one cannot take advantage of it ! ! ! bob "rules, what rules? I ain't subject to no stinkin' rules!!" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s (http://news.yahoo.com/) Palin Crossed Border For Canadian Health Care Sam Stein Sam Stein Mon Mar 8, 12:26 pm ET Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system. "We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said _in her first Canadian appearance_ (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/huffpost/cm_huffpost/storytext/490080/35400575/SIG=13rtgh8r8/*http://ww w.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/sarah-palin-sees-eye-to-eye-with-alberta ns-in-calgary-speech/article1492634/) since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?" The irony, one guesses, is that Palin now views Canada's health care system as revolting: with its government-run administration and 'death-panel'-like rationing. Clearly, however, she and her family once found it more alluring than, at the very least, the coverage available in rural Alaska. _Up to the age of six_ (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/huffpost/cm_huffpost/storytext/490080/35400575/SIG=1335ihm5g/*http://washingtonindependent.com/78624/pa lin-growing-up-i-hustled-over-the-border-for-health-care) , Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse. Officials at several hospitals in that area declined to give out information on patient visits. (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/huffpost/cm_huffpost/storytext/490080/35400575/SIG=11783v4g7/*http://www.twitter.com/huffingtonp ost) Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100309/601ea9fe/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 09:43:04 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:43:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> Message-ID: ... and Limbaugh will leave the U.S. for Costa Rica if reform passes! Costa Rica... where there is universal health care! LOL! http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003080033 Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:10 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? I guess single payor health care is only so bad when one cannot take advantage of it ! ! ! bob "rules, what rules? I ain't subject to no stinkin' rules!!" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s Palin Crossed Border For Canadian Health Care Sam Stein Sam Stein Mon Mar 8, 12:26 pm ET Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system. "We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?" The irony, one guesses, is that Palin now views Canada's health care system as revolting: with its government-run administration and 'death-panel'-like rationing. Clearly, however, she and her family once found it more alluring than, at the very least, the coverage available in rural Alaska. Up to the age of six, Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse. Officials at several hospitals in that area declined to give out information on patient visits. Copyright ? 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From a_tom_51 at juno.com Tue Mar 9 09:45:59 2010 From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 17:45:59 GMT Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed Message-ID: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> Oregon Coast is a great place. You can Google for rentals. Newport is one of my favorites. Sea lions on the docks and safe places to watch and hear them. Mo's for some chowder, nice walks, Aquarium, and Hatfield science center, Tourist kitch like ripley's and undersea gardens. Good for an overnight or longer. Happy anniversary what ever you do! Tom Alexander It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does anyone have any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light hiking in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) a plus. Thanks Grovenetters! Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ Nutrition Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6I-oMGZk7dVBUumJ0_kfWgAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 9 09:48:58 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 09:48:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4B968A0A.9020308@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100309/d32bd66d/attachment.html From rab at jurislex.com Tue Mar 9 10:08:43 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:08:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat, net privacy and more In-Reply-To: <030001cabf55$80886bf0$819943d0$@com> References: <40269.2da9cb4c.38c6f8bb@aol.com> <030001cabf55$80886bf0$819943d0$@com> Message-ID: <4B968EAB.3020104@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100309/a213468d/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 10:24:46 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:24:46 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> <4B968A0A.9020308@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Hahaha, Bob! Geri ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? My gawd!! Why would you refer us to such a commie tool rag??? bob "it's my party and I'll leave if I want to" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 3/9/2010 9:43 AM, Geri wrote: ... and Limbaugh will leave the U.S. for Costa Rica if reform passes! Costa Rica... where there is universal health care! LOL! http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003080033 Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:10 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? I guess single payor health care is only so bad when one cannot take advantage of it ! ! ! bob "rules, what rules? I ain't subject to no stinkin' rules!!" browning +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 10:39:38 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:39:38 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <1329421810-1268159980-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1778174392-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> And it was reported on msnbc. She did it years ago. Just a month ago a canadian politician went to miami for treatment rather that wait for it in canada. From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 10:40:50 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:40:50 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Tit for tat, net privacy and more In-Reply-To: <4B968EAB.3020104@jurislex.com> References: <40269.2da9cb4c.38c6f8bb@aol.com><030001cabf55$80886bf0$819943d0$@com><4B968EAB.3020104@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1278350195-1268160052-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1526816630-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> But the sources were all opinion pages. Facts without the spin is where I live. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Browning Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:08:43 To: ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tit for tat, net privacy and more _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Mar 9 11:13:59 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:13:59 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new" In-Reply-To: Kristy Gravlin 's message of Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:12:45 -0600 Message-ID: <18333-4B969DF7-1877@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I guess being a type B as in Bull, I suppose being put out to pasture is not such a bad deal. At least up here on my mountain the pastures are greener except for a patch of snow here and there. ~A~ {:?) out to pasture Hoss From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Tue Mar 9 12:54:36 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:54:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> References: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <8BC632CC596B47089BED05A2722FC106@Office> Thanks to all who gave such great ideas! I'm trying to keep it a surprise to Roger ;-) Thank you all again!!!! Leslie From Jamsm at aol.com Tue Mar 9 13:22:48 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:22:48 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed Message-ID: <2d284.40cf45ff.38c81628@aol.com> If you have never been to Crater Lake - it is a must SEE~! A blue that you have never seen before The Gouch! In a message dated 3/9/2010 3:55:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com writes: Thanks to all who gave such great ideas! I'm trying to keep it a surprise to Roger ;-) Thank you all again!!!! Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 14:21:23 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:21:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <8BC632CC596B47089BED05A2722FC106@Office> Message-ID: <478283.6165.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Roger that, ixnay on the eanbay illingspay! --- On Tue, 3/9/10, Leslie.Neyman wrote: From: Leslie.Neyman Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 8:54 PM Thanks to all who gave such great ideas! I'm trying to keep it a surprise to Roger ;-) Thank you all again!!!! Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 15:53:39 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:53:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> References: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <5DB46FBE-9A3E-4C89-ADFD-0D54980EAF19@verizon.net> The Hatfield Marine Science Center is much less expensive than the Aquarium and has lots of interesting things. Last time I was there, it was donation and just as interesting as the Aquarium. Of course the Aquarium is very nice as well. --MK On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:45 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote: > Oregon Coast is a great place. You can Google for rentals. Newport > is one of my favorites. Sea lions on the docks and safe places to > watch and hear them. Mo's for some chowder, nice walks, Aquarium, > and Hatfield science center, Tourist kitch like ripley's and > undersea gardens. Good for an overnight or longer. > Happy anniversary what ever you do! > Tom Alexander > > > > It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does > anyone have > any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light > hiking > in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) > a plus. > > Thanks Grovenetters! > > Leslie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > ____________________________________________________________ > Nutrition > Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6I-oMGZk7dVBUumJ0_kfWgAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Mar 9 16:11:50 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:11:50 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama Message-ID: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1014 Jeff From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 16:28:53 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:28:53 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <5DB46FBE-9A3E-4C89-ADFD-0D54980EAF19@verizon.net> References: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> <5DB46FBE-9A3E-4C89-ADFD-0D54980EAF19@verizon.net> Message-ID: <08C47168B3004E2DB8D6397E32B03FC5@JeffVAIO> Our Girl Scout troop was in Newport recently and we did a couple of the Oregon Coast Quests there. One of the quests is inside (out of the rain) in the Hatfield Marine Science Center. If you haven't heard of Oregon Coast Quests, they are similar to GeoCaching and Letterboxing, but no equipment is needed. They are a lot of fun and it's a thrill (even for adults) when you find the box: http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/visitor/oregon-coast-quests The website has the clues to the three quests which begin at the Hatfield Marine Center. If you buy the book ($6.00), there are another 20-30 quests in other areas along the coast. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Martha Khoury" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:53 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed > The Hatfield Marine Science Center is much less expensive than the > Aquarium and has lots of interesting things. Last time I was there, it > was donation and just as interesting as the Aquarium. Of course the > Aquarium is very nice as well. --MK > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:45 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote: > >> Oregon Coast is a great place. You can Google for rentals. Newport >> is one of my favorites. Sea lions on the docks and safe places to >> watch and hear them. Mo's for some chowder, nice walks, Aquarium, >> and Hatfield science center, Tourist kitch like ripley's and >> undersea gardens. Good for an overnight or longer. >> Happy anniversary what ever you do! >> Tom Alexander >> >> >> >> It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does >> anyone have >> any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light >> hiking >> in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) >> a plus. >> >> Thanks Grovenetters! >> >> Leslie >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Nutrition >> Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6I-oMGZk7dVBUumJ0_kfWgAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Tue Mar 9 16:49:35 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:49:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed In-Reply-To: <08C47168B3004E2DB8D6397E32B03FC5@JeffVAIO> References: <20100309.094559.7197.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> <5DB46FBE-9A3E-4C89-ADFD-0D54980EAF19@verizon.net> <08C47168B3004E2DB8D6397E32B03FC5@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <1AA92B0B18574BF8813D6E727199EE2B@Office> This is such a great idea, Marian! We are taking Janelle and a friend camping at Beverly Beach near Newport for her birthday this year and this will be a perfect activity to do, especially if the weather is lousy. We'll get the book and go from there. How long do the quests usually take? Thanks again! Leslie -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed Our Girl Scout troop was in Newport recently and we did a couple of the Oregon Coast Quests there. One of the quests is inside (out of the rain) in the Hatfield Marine Science Center. If you haven't heard of Oregon Coast Quests, they are similar to GeoCaching and Letterboxing, but no equipment is needed. They are a lot of fun and it's a thrill (even for adults) when you find the box: http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/visitor/oregon-coast-quests The website has the clues to the three quests which begin at the Hatfield Marine Center. If you buy the book ($6.00), there are another 20-30 quests in other areas along the coast. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Martha Khoury" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:53 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed > The Hatfield Marine Science Center is much less expensive than the > Aquarium and has lots of interesting things. Last time I was there, it > was donation and just as interesting as the Aquarium. Of course the > Aquarium is very nice as well. --MK > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:45 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote: > >> Oregon Coast is a great place. You can Google for rentals. Newport >> is one of my favorites. Sea lions on the docks and safe places to >> watch and hear them. Mo's for some chowder, nice walks, Aquarium, >> and Hatfield science center, Tourist kitch like ripley's and >> undersea gardens. Good for an overnight or longer. >> Happy anniversary what ever you do! >> Tom Alexander >> >> >> >> It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does >> anyone have >> any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light >> hiking >> in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) >> a plus. >> >> Thanks Grovenetters! >> >> Leslie >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Nutrition >> Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6I-oMGZk7dVBUumJ0_kfWgAAJ1CORK rrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From a_tom_51 at juno.com Tue Mar 9 17:45:19 2010 From: a_tom_51 at juno.com (a_tom_51 at juno.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:45:19 GMT Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed Message-ID: <20100309.174519.8699.0@webmail19.vgs.untd.com> At Newport is the Under Sea Gardens,which is a tourist trap but, right outside it is a spot where we saw Calif. sea lions. They were on the dock about 10-15 feet below. There were about a dozen or so and very interesting to watch. (OK, I was a zoology major). Nice free show and real close up. Tom Alexander This is such a great idea, Marian! We are taking Janelle and a friend camping at Beverly Beach near Newport for her birthday this year and this will be a perfect activity to do, especially if the weather is lousy. We'll get the book and go from there. How long do the quests usually take? Thanks again! Leslie -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed Our Girl Scout troop was in Newport recently and we did a couple of the Oregon Coast Quests there. One of the quests is inside (out of the rain) in the Hatfield Marine Science Center. If you haven't heard of Oregon Coast Quests, they are similar to GeoCaching and Letterboxing, but no equipment is needed. They are a lot of fun and it's a thrill (even for adults) when you find the box: http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/visitor/oregon-coast-quests The website has the clues to the three quests which begin at the Hatfield Marine Center. If you buy the book ($6.00), there are another 20-30 quests in other areas along the coast. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Martha Khoury" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:53 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Get Away Idea Needed > The Hatfield Marine Science Center is much less expensive than the > Aquarium and has lots of interesting things. Last time I was there, it > was donation and just as interesting as the Aquarium. Of course the > Aquarium is very nice as well. --MK > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:45 AM, a_tom_51 at juno.com wrote: > >> Oregon Coast is a great place. You can Google for rentals. Newport >> is one of my favorites. Sea lions on the docks and safe places to >> watch and hear them. Mo's for some chowder, nice walks, Aquarium, >> and Hatfield science center, Tourist kitch like ripley's and >> undersea gardens. Good for an overnight or longer. >> Happy anniversary what ever you do! >> Tom Alexander >> >> >> >> It's my turn to plan our anniversary weekend in late April. Does >> anyone have >> any ideas for a relatively close and inexpensive getaway idea? Light >> hiking >> in a forested area and or water views (not necessarily from a room) >> a plus. >> >> Thanks Grovenetters! >> >> Leslie >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Nutrition >> Improve your career health. Click now to study nutrition! >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=6I-oMGZk7dVBUumJ0_kfWgAAJ1CORK rrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASQwAAAAA= >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ____________________________________________________________ Weight Loss Program Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=h5JFZIir7ZVn_TuJZs45KgAAJ1CORKrrSABr_kse746cCp3FAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEUgAAAAA= From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 16:18:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:18:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> Message-ID: <6CDB0415-D8C2-475A-AD82-03F6D3D97CD5@teleport.com> What, you expect ANY politician to be consistent? ;^) WW On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:11 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php? > storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1014 > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 18:33:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:33:11 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Something to Offend Everyone In-Reply-To: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> Message-ID: Lines Inspired by an Article on CNN, Regarding Cats and Dogs Being Eaten in China "Do you like Green Cat and Ham? Deep-fried Fido? Snails and Spam?" "No, I don't like them, Sam-I-Am! Nor Monkey Brains! Nor Candied Lamb!" "Would you eat some Chocolate Moose? Vanilla Squid? Or Caramel Goose?" "No, I won't eat those ghastly things! Nor Camel Toes! Nor Wombat Wings!" "Then how about Koala Lips? Or Sauteed Walrus Moustache Tips?" "No, I won't eat them, Sam-I-Am! For such foods I don't give a damn!" "But other folk eat those things now So what do YOU want, anyhow?" "Ah, NOW you're talkin', Sam-I-Am, Fetch me a Cow and fork, then scram!" From hannah at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 19:02:34 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:02:34 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Something to Offend Everyone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FUNNY, FUNNY, FUNNY! (A LITTLE WEIRD, OF COURSE, BUT REALLY FUNNY) WILL SEND THIS TO DAUGHTER! KRISTY On 3/9/10 8:33 PM, "Walt Wentz" wrote: > Lines Inspired by an Article on CNN, Regarding Cats and Dogs Being > Eaten in China > > "Do you like Green Cat and Ham? > Deep-fried Fido? Snails and Spam?" > > "No, I don't like them, Sam-I-Am! > Nor Monkey Brains! Nor Candied Lamb!" > > "Would you eat some Chocolate Moose? > Vanilla Squid? Or Caramel Goose?" > > "No, I won't eat those ghastly things! > Nor Camel Toes! Nor Wombat Wings!" > > "Then how about Koala Lips? > Or Sauteed Walrus Moustache Tips?" > > "No, I won't eat them, Sam-I-Am! > For such foods I don't give a damn!" > > "But other folk eat those things now > So what do YOU want, anyhow?" > > "Ah, NOW you're talkin', Sam-I-Am, > Fetch me a Cow and fork, then scram!" > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 20:13:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:13:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No wonder they want health care. So what is a Type R Personality? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > Are You a Type D Personality? > > ...The D stands for distress, and a growing body of research links this personality type with a variety of health risks and even early death -- so it may be especially important for these inhibited and gloomy folks to do everything they can to lighten up. From hannah at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 20:34:56 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:34:56 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All of you guys seem to be in great form today. This is the third time I've laughed right out loud at one of the emails. (It will be good for my D personality.) But, just in case someone really is confused, this is definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... But you know that, right? Kristy On 3/9/10 10:13 PM, "David Morelli" wrote: > No wonder they want health care. > > So what is a Type R Personality? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> Are You a Type D Personality? >> >> ...The D stands for distress, and a growing body of research links this >> personality type with a variety of health risks and even early death -- so it >> may be especially important for these inhibited and gloomy folks to do >> everything they can to lighten up. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 20:43:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:43:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2111952266.12733441268196229777.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Beginning to learn something new for sure. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Kristy Gravlin To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:34:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least All of you guys seem to be in great form today. This is the third time I've laughed right out loud at one of the emails. (It will be good for my D personality.) But, just in case someone really is confused, this is definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... But you know that, right? Kristy On 3/9/10 10:13 PM, "David Morelli" wrote: > No wonder they want health care. > > So what is a Type R Personality? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> Are You a Type D Personality? >> >> ...The D stands for distress, and a growing body of research links this >> personality type with a variety of health risks and even early death -- so it >> may be especially important for these inhibited and gloomy folks to do >> everything they can to lighten up. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 21:07:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:07:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87D12B30-06F9-4A3E-8071-DED1198F334B@verizon.net> On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > ... But, just in case someone really is confused, this is definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... > > But you know that, right? > Kristy Glad it made you smile. I can understand that the D's are despondent and depressed at being the party in power. They don't know what to do. but what is the R Personality? Resistant? Reactionary? Repressed? David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 9 21:10:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:10:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: <87D12B30-06F9-4A3E-8071-DED1198F334B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <757345761.12741601268197818557.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Responsible? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:07:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > ... But, just in case someone really is confused, this is definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... > > But you know that, right? > Kristy Glad it made you smile. I can understand that the D's are despondent and depressed at being the party in power. They don't know what to do. but what is the R Personality? Resistant? Reactionary? Repressed? David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 21:09:44 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:09:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a little Hosstyle Monday Humor In-Reply-To: <1074639027.12294611268115640401.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1074639027.12294611268115640401.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: As I recall, wagon trains would form up in St. Louis based upon the motive power. Whole trains would be horses, mules or oxen, so that they would have similar travel speeds. David On Mar 8, 2010, at 10:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > The emigrants on the Oregon trail used oxen because they were stronger and more dureable than horses or mules. > > Strange we see no oxen around today. > > don From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Mar 9 21:11:26 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 21:11:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:43:49 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <16407-4B9729FE-3138@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Kristy.. just in case there where a tpye R .. what would r stand for? From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 21:29:56 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:29:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DDF8233-2F13-473D-AF43-E1F49BD93784@verizon.net> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 21:30:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:30:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <4B968112.6010205@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <98016AEC-D254-4BE6-8D65-F235F2A9D4DC@verizon.net> Of course he will go there. Only the best for the rich. "Costa Rica has universal health care, one of the best health systems in Latin America." http://www.internationalliving.com/Countries/Costa-Rica/Health-Care David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Geri wrote: > ... and Limbaugh will leave the U.S. for Costa Rica if reform passes! Costa Rica... where there is universal health care! LOL! > > http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003080033 > > > Geri From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 9 22:02:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:02:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: <757345761.12741601268197818557.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <757345761.12741601268197818557.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <43558325-B573-4FAB-971B-BCA6AEB325DD@teleport.com> Regressive? Recessive? Raunchy? Romantic? Retired? On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > Responsible? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:07:54 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, > at least > > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> ... But, just in case someone really is confused, this is >> definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. >> This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... >> >> But you know that, right? >> Kristy > > Glad it made you smile. > > I can understand that the D's are despondent and depressed at being > the party in power. They don't know what to do. > > but what is the R Personality? Resistant? Reactionary? Repressed? > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 9 22:15:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:15:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, at least In-Reply-To: <757345761.12741601268197818557.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <757345761.12741601268197818557.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2A27739D-0762-43CA-A71D-74AC10A2733D@verizon.net> Responsible for two unfunded wars? Yes Responsible for an unimaginable rise in the deficit 2000-2008? Yes Responsible for zero net additions to US jobs 2000-2008? Yes. Responsible for middle class incomes remaining flat during their tenure? Yes. Responsible for warrant-less wiretaps on civilians? Yes. Responsible for no bulk pharmaceutical bargaining for Medicare drugs? Yes. Responsible for the Dec '07 start to the current recession? Yes. The list could go on and on, but responsible is a good word to use. On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > Responsible? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:07:54 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just learned about something "new"...to me, > at least > > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > >> ... But, just in case someone really is confused, this is >> definitely not D and in R & D....there is no political connection. >> This is D as in A Personality and B Personality.... >> >> But you know that, right? >> Kristy > > Glad it made you smile. > > I can understand that the D's are despondent and depressed at being > the party in power. They don't know what to do. > > but what is the R Personality? Resistant? Reactionary? Repressed? > > > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 03:26:17 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:26:17 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 06:45:15 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:45:15 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> Message-ID: <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> Interesting how the NPR article didn't talk about the threats that Massa claims that Rahm Emanuel made against him. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/naked-rahm-emanuel-lambasted-me-says-democrat-congressman-eric-massa/story-e6frg6so-1225838979279 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/10/AR2010031001057.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/tickletattle-rocks-washington-20100310-pzds.html Adan Jeff Howden wrote: > I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1014 > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 06:52:44 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 06:52:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002c01cac061$57a767b0$06f63710$@net> Must not have happened. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Adam Mayer > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:45 AM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama > > Interesting how the NPR article didn't talk about the threats that > Massa > claims that Rahm Emanuel made against him. > > http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/naked-rahm-emanuel- > lambasted-me-says-democrat-congressman-eric-massa/story-e6frg6so- > 1225838979279 > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- > dyn/content/article/2010/03/10/AR2010031001057.html > http://www.smh.com.au/world/tickletattle-rocks-washington-20100310- > pzds.html > > Adan > > Jeff Howden wrote: > > I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. > > > > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1 > 014 > > > > Jeff an/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 07:39:09 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:39:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <002c01cac061$57a767b0$06f63710$@net> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> <002c01cac061$57a767b0$06f63710$@net> Message-ID: <4B97BD1D.7050307@gmail.com> Oh yeah I forgot, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Good job NPR! Adam Steven wrote: > Must not have happened. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Adam Mayer >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:45 AM >> To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama >> >> Interesting how the NPR article didn't talk about the threats that >> Massa >> claims that Rahm Emanuel made against him. >> >> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/naked-rahm-emanuel- >> lambasted-me-says-democrat-congressman-eric-massa/story-e6frg6so- >> 1225838979279 >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- >> dyn/content/article/2010/03/10/AR2010031001057.html >> http://www.smh.com.au/world/tickletattle-rocks-washington-20100310- >> pzds.html >> >> Adan >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>> I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. >>> >>> >>> >> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1 >> 014 >> >>> Jeff >>> > an/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Wed Mar 10 07:42:05 2010 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (jschrag at fgnewstimes.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:42:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> Message-ID: An NPR story last evening included the Emanuel allegations. John Schrag Editor & Publisher News-Times Forest Grove, Oregon 503-357-3181 ? Voted the "best small newspaper in Oregon" 2006, 2007, 2008 ? ? ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Adam Mayer Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:45 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama Interesting how the NPR article didn't talk about the threats that Massa claims that Rahm Emanuel made against him. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/naked-rahm-emanuel-lambasted-me-says-democrat-congressman-eric-massa/story-e6frg6so-1225838979279 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/10/AR2010031001057.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/tickletattle-rocks-washington-20100310-pzds.html Adan Jeff Howden wrote: > I wish he'd just pick a story and stick to it. > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124506661&ft=1&f=1014 > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 07:42:16 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> Message-ID: <949418.59823.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 08:34:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:34:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <949418.59823.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> <949418.59823.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey, let's all back off and breathe deeply, folks. What's the point of nitpicking all the contradictions, evasions, spinning, lying and hypocrisy inherent in politicians and media divas like Palin, Limbaugh, Cheney et al? They are all image and no substance. You're punching at (and defending) mere shadows projected on the media screen. Let's concentrate on common interests that have a real existence, and not be decoyed away from them by political theater. Sure we have personal differences, but we ought to concentrate on the real ones, not allow ourselves to be manipulated with the fake ones. On Mar 10, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles > that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. > There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually > adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! > Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might > be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. > And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some > 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly > PRINCIPLED person, now would they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to > Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making > from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to > hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. > Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to > massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are > are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for > medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at > all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to > the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and > what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible > by ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE > Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of > lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit > like the > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived >> in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that > the nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about > her life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up > not far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having > to travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >> something else. >> >> The Grouch > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 10:37:53 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:37:53 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <970136164.2003424.1268246273830.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> I don't want to incite/inflame anyone, but I think this information is important. http://www.whitehouse.gov/numbers?page=1&utm_source=36&utm_medium=text&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=healthreform#share --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 11:05:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:05:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House In-Reply-To: <970136164.2003424.1268246273830.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> References: <970136164.2003424.1268246273830.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> Message-ID: Well, that's really getting down to on-the-ground reality for us "real" people-- wonder how the naysayers are going to respond to that? WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:37 AM, oldredwagon at verizon.net wrote: > I don't want to incite/inflame anyone, but I think this information > is important. > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/numbers? > page=1&utm_source=36&utm_medium=text&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=he > althreform#share > > --- > This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http:// > addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email > addresses. > > Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http:// > www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 11:06:00 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:06:00 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <18e02.409f1b6a.38c94798@aol.com> Look, who is using fear mongering. Just another Obama campaign advertisement! He has not stopped campaigning. Yes, health care needs to be reformed, but not in the socialized manner the Marxist Left wants. The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 1:38:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, oldredwagon at verizon.net writes: I don't want to incite/inflame anyone, but I think this information is important. http://www.whitehouse.gov/numbers?page=1&utm_s ource=36&utm_medium=text&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=healthreform#share From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 11:06:22 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:06:22 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 11:06:42 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:06:42 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <18ee9.2405d627.38c947c2@aol.com> And you aren't being biased with your slant of hypocrisy by putting a negative spin on only certain conservative people. There are more than enough Left leaners that fall into the same category. The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 11:35:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Hey, let's all back off and breathe deeply, folks. What's the point of nitpicking all the contradictions, evasions, spinning, lying and hypocrisy inherent in politicians and media divas like Palin, Limbaugh, Cheney et al? They are all image and no substance. You're punching at (and defending) mere shadows projected on the media screen. Let's concentrate on common interests that have a real existence, and not be decoyed away from them by political theater. Sure we have personal differences, but we ought to concentrate on the real ones, not allow ourselves to be manipulated with the fake ones. On Mar 10, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Holly T. wrote: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles > that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. > There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually > adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! > Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might > be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. > And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some > 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly > PRINCIPLED person, now would they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to > Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making > from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to > hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. > Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to > massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are > are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for > medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at > all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to > the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and > what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible > by ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE > Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of > lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit > like the > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived >> in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that > the nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about > her life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up > not far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having > to travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >> something else. >> >> The Grouch > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:26:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> References: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <04e001cac087$9dabf250$d903d6f0$@com> Grouch, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > [...] But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my > gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And now you've described precisely why I weigh in on some of the topics here. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it > frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do > some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking > peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to > it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's just nonsense. They're both every bit as bad as the other. To suggest otherwise is to show your bias and you're willingness to give one side a pass on certain things you'll take the other side to task on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< A funny video, but completely out of line and insensitive to post that here in response to a fellow grovenetter. You, sir, have very clearly stepped over the line. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 11:26:42 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:26:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] More Massa Media Melodrama In-Reply-To: <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> References: <043801cabfe6$48e12b60$daa38220$@com> <4B97B07B.3080606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04e301cac087$a0edafd0$e2c90f70$@com> Adam, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Adam Mayer [mailto:adamsmayer at gmail.com] > > Interesting how the NPR article didn't talk about the threats that > Massa claims that Rahm Emanuel made against him. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's actually not an NPR article specifically, but an AP story NPR simply included in their news content. Here's another perspective: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100309/ap_on_go_co/us_massa_resigns_fact_check I think this last article hits the nail on the head. Massa *chose* to resign and leave office. What his specific motive for all this flip-flopping and crazy-making is, only time will tell. Jeff From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 11:37:55 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:37:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House In-Reply-To: References: <970136164.2003424.1268246273830.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> Message-ID: There will be a new number everyday - the number I sent to GroveNet, "1,115" was from yesterday. Today's number is "8". If it's OK with most of you, I'll send the new number everyday. I wish I could just forward the e-mail instead of redirecting everyone to the link. -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:05 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House > Well, that's really getting down to on-the-ground reality for us > "real" people-- wonder how the naysayers are going to respond to that? > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:37 AM, oldredwagon at verizon.net wrote: > >> I don't want to incite/inflame anyone, but I think this information >> is important. >> >> http://www.whitehouse.gov/numbers? >> page=1&utm_source=36&utm_medium=text&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=he >> althreform#share >> >> --- >> This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http:// >> addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email >> addresses. >> >> Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http:// >> www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 11:35:46 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:35:46 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <145785327.2014177.1268249746447.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> The number today is 8. http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email37&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 11:36:04 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:36:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> <949418.59823.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15893716-CA45-43D5-AC3E-81851D014705@verizon.net> Thanks Walt, One area we might all be able to agree on is that the average American has been disempowered and, for the most part it is irrelevant whether a democrat or a republican is in the white house. The folks who have been empowered over the last 30 years are the corporate owners and lobbyists. The lobbyists write the laws and regulations, the congress then passes them, the president signs, and the corporations benefit. The larger and more international the corporation, the more power they have. Mom and pop S corps do not enter into this new power structure any more than a ditch digger or poop scooper. The only power we have as people is our collective power. In '08 it was the rallies for change. In '09 it was the tea parties. They were able to get media coverage and that made all the difference. Our only hope is to keep talking and picketing and calling congress. One good thing that I see happening is the phone lines being jammed by callers to congress. Even if some of the calls are to dump Obama care and some of the calls are to hold out for single payer. At least the folks in congress are hearing that real people are out here and our collective voices are starting to balance out the lobbyist with a check paying for a lobster croquette at lunch. Even if the politicians characterize the populace as not knowing what they want, that puts the powerful on edge because a crowd can turn on a dime. That level of uncertainty is what keeps the representatives at least listening. So we have to keep sending them messages. The next politician to actually stand up for people and not the corporations will have a huge following, regardless of whether they are a democrat, or a republican. We just haven't seen one yet. Katie On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Hey, let's all back off and breathe deeply, folks. > What's the point of nitpicking all the contradictions, evasions, > spinning, lying and hypocrisy inherent in politicians and media divas > like Palin, Limbaugh, Cheney et al? They are all image and no > substance. You're punching at (and defending) mere shadows projected > on the media screen. Let's concentrate on common interests that have > a real existence, and not be decoyed away from them by political > theater. Sure we have personal differences, but we ought to > concentrate on the real ones, not allow ourselves to be manipulated > with the fake ones. > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Holly T. wrote: > >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles >> that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. >> There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually >> adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! >> Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might >> be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. >> And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some >> 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly >> PRINCIPLED person, now would they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >> Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >> from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to >> hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. >> Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to >> massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are >> are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for >> medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at >> all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to >> the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >> Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and >> what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible >> by ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE >> Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >> lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >> Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >> like the >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived >>> in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >> the nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >>> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about >> her life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up >> not far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having >> to travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 11:48:33 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:48:33 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <2599b.5e0b70f6.38c95191@aol.com> Katie, I agree with you on this. The lobbyists are what have controlled this country for some time and the professional politicians do as they request. Most lobbyists are major organization puppets (not just large companies.) The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 2:36:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, allnutt at verizon.net writes: Thanks Walt, One area we might all be able to agree on is that the average American has been disempowered and, for the most part it is irrelevant whether a democrat or a republican is in the white house. The folks who have been empowered over the last 30 years are the corporate owners and lobbyists. The lobbyists write the laws and regulations, the congress then passes them, the president signs, and the corporations benefit. The larger and more international the corporation, the more power they have. Mom and pop S corps do not enter into this new power structure any more than a ditch digger or poop scooper. The only power we have as people is our collective power. In '08 it was the rallies for change. In '09 it was the tea parties. They were able to get media coverage and that made all the difference. Our only hope is to keep talking and picketing and calling congress. One good thing that I see happening is the phone lines being jammed by callers to congress. Even if some of the calls are to dump Obama care and some of the calls are to hold out for single payer. At least the folks in congress are hearing that real people are out here and our collective voices are starting to balance out the lobbyist with a check paying for a lobster croquette at lunch. Even if the politicians characterize the populace as not knowing what they want, that puts the powerful on edge because a crowd can turn on a dime. That level of uncertainty is what keeps the representatives at least listening. So we have to keep sending them messages. The next politician to actually stand up for people and not the corporations will have a huge following, regardless of whether they are a democrat, or a republican. We just haven't seen one yet. Katie On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Hey, let's all back off and breathe deeply, folks. > What's the point of nitpicking all the contradictions, evasions, > spinning, lying and hypocrisy inherent in politicians and media divas > like Palin, Limbaugh, Cheney et al? They are all image and no > substance. You're punching at (and defending) mere shadows projected > on the media screen. Let's concentrate on common interests that have > a real existence, and not be decoyed away from them by political > theater. Sure we have personal differences, but we ought to > concentrate on the real ones, not allow ourselves to be manipulated > with the fake ones. > From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 12:36:42 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:36:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House In-Reply-To: <18e02.409f1b6a.38c94798@aol.com> References: <18e02.409f1b6a.38c94798@aol.com> Message-ID: <1132A599-3DE9-4742-96E4-5765177DC956@teleport.com> Say, Big G, who's fear-mongering when they sling around labels like "Marxist" and "Socialist" and "Left?" Those are actual names of specific political and philosophical movements, and shoehorning anything you don't happen to like into those specific categories is not only fear-mongering, it's intellectually dishonest. Let's have a little less heat and more light, shall we? WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Look, who is using fear mongering. > > Just another Obama campaign advertisement! > He has not stopped campaigning. > > Yes, health care needs to be reformed, but not in the socialized > manner > the Marxist Left wants. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 1:38:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > oldredwagon at verizon.net writes: > > I don't want to incite/inflame anyone, but I think this > information is > important. > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/numbers?page=1&utm_s > ource=36&utm_medium=text&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=healthreform#s > hare > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 13:09:41 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:09:41 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <2599b.5e0b70f6.38c95191@aol.com> References: <2599b.5e0b70f6.38c95191@aol.com> Message-ID: Well put, Katie and Big G. Since we're agreed on this much, what to do about it? The Oregonian today carried a story (page 2) about how Congress seems to be totally disconnected from the public on health care reform... instead, they keep running though the same old "get something done" versus "scrap everything and start over--someday" routine, again and again. Then, the "Number For Today" passed along by Marian --8-- is supposedly the number of health-care-interest-lobby employees hired by various corporations for every member of Congress. Eight lobbyists for every Congressman, all working for Big Medicine! They must be sleeping in shifts in the Washington hotels. Add to this the Supremes' decision to remove political campaign limits on corporations and unions (but the unions will be a very small David against a colossal Giant), and ordinary people seem to have all the chance of the proverbial snowball in Gehenna of getting ANY health care reform... Or of keeping their country from degenerating into a corporate theocracy, in which the general populace would be allowed to compete for a declining number of low- paying jobs, pay their taxes, live in dread any accident or illness, risk their lives in the military to defend corporate interests, and be distracted from their increasing poverty and powerlessness by media divas cynically manipulating their fears and prejudices through political theater. Sound grim? Them's my opinions, anyhow. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Katie, I agree with you on this. > The lobbyists are what have controlled this country for some time > and the > professional politicians do as they request. Most lobbyists are > major > organization puppets (not just large companies.) > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 2:36:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > allnutt at verizon.net writes: > > Thanks Walt, > One area we might all be able to agree on is that the average > American has been disempowered and, for the most part it is > irrelevant whether a democrat or a republican is in the white house. > The folks who have been empowered over the last 30 years are the > corporate owners and lobbyists. The lobbyists write the laws and > regulations, the congress then passes them, the president signs, and > the corporations benefit. The larger and more international the > corporation, the more power they have. Mom and pop S corps do not > enter into this new power structure any more than a ditch digger or > poop scooper. > > The only power we have as people is our collective power. In '08 it > was the rallies for change. In '09 it was the tea parties. They > were able to get media coverage and that made all the difference. > Our only hope is to keep talking and picketing and calling congress. > One good thing that I see happening is the phone lines being jammed > by callers to congress. Even if some of the calls are to dump Obama > care and some of the calls are to hold out for single payer. At least > the folks in congress are hearing that real people are out here and > our collective voices are starting to balance out the lobbyist with a > check paying for a lobster croquette at lunch. > > Even if the politicians characterize the populace as not knowing what > they want, that puts the powerful on edge because a crowd can turn on > a dime. That level of uncertainty is what keeps the representatives > at least listening. So we have to keep sending them messages. > The next politician to actually stand up for people and not the > corporations will have a huge following, regardless of whether they > are a democrat, or a republican. We just haven't seen one yet. > > Katie > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Hey, let's all back off and breathe deeply, folks. >> What's the point of nitpicking all the contradictions, evasions, >> spinning, lying and hypocrisy inherent in politicians and media >> divas >> like Palin, Limbaugh, Cheney et al? They are all image and no >> substance. You're punching at (and defending) mere shadows projected >> on the media screen. Let's concentrate on common interests that have >> a real existence, and not be decoyed away from them by political >> theater. Sure we have personal differences, but we ought to >> concentrate on the real ones, not allow ourselves to be manipulated >> with the fake ones. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 13:26:45 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:26:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <2599b.5e0b70f6.38c95191@aol.com> Message-ID: <050f01cac098$63c5cd70$2b516850$@com> Walt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Walt Wentz > > Since we're agreed on this much, what to do about it? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Start with getting informed. The following two websites go a long way in that regard. http://www.opensecrets.org/ http://sunlightfoundation.com/ I found the second one particularly enlightening during the most recent public healthcare debates. They had a live feed from the debates on the site and every time the camera moved to a different speaker, the sidebar would be updated with their top financial supporters. It was interesting how knowing that bit of info gave some context to their position they were speaking to. Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 13:27:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:27:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm References: <20100310205824.1472.11538.qmail@omail6.sac.getactive.com> Message-ID: Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... Begin forwarded message: > From: "Patrick Leahy" > Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST > To: "Walt Wentz" > Subject: Undoing the harm > Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org > > > Dear Walt, > > Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a > narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens > United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate > Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light > of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political > process from excessive corporate spending. > > The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of > Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, > not corporations. After all, corporations are different from > individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or > motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed > to conduct commerce, nothing more. > > The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and > they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he > wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the > mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the > charter of its creation confers upon it..." > > When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled > that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to > spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they > ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted > our well-established campaign finance laws. > > At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual > citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if > the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not > take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every > candidate for every political party at every level of American > government. > > When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it > was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. > Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily > went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their > preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more > damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single > election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. > > In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact > specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in > the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until > then, please forward this email to your friends and family to > continue building awareness about the grave implications of this > wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates > of corporate spending in American elections. > > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > Patrick Leahy > U.S. Senator > > P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community > by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know > about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at > undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision: > > http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join > > > > > > > Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. > PO Box 1042 > Montpelier, VT 05601 > > > > > > This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your > subscription management page to modify your email communication > preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from > Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply > via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). > > > From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 13:30:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:30:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <050f01cac098$63c5cd70$2b516850$@com> References: <2599b.5e0b70f6.38c95191@aol.com> <050f01cac098$63c5cd70$2b516850$@com> Message-ID: Thanks, Jeff... WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Walt, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Walt Wentz >> >> Since we're agreed on this much, what to do about it? >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Start with getting informed. The following two websites go a long > way in > that regard. > > http://www.opensecrets.org/ > http://sunlightfoundation.com/ > > I found the second one particularly enlightening during the most > recent > public healthcare debates. They had a live feed from the debates > on the > site and every time the camera moved to a different speaker, the > sidebar > would be updated with their top financial supporters. It was > interesting > how knowing that bit of info gave some context to their position > they were > speaking to. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 13:58:15 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:58:15 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm Message-ID: <2f79c.13bf9a5b.38c96ff7@aol.com> Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure I can find more blusterous actions by this guy. Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will benefit him and his colleagues. Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to "Go." _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... Begin forwarded message: > From: "Patrick Leahy" > Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST > To: "Walt Wentz" > Subject: Undoing the harm > Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org > > > Dear Walt, > > Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a > narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens > United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate > Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light > of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political > process from excessive corporate spending. > > The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of > Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, > not corporations. After all, corporations are different from > individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or > motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed > to conduct commerce, nothing more. > > The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and > they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he > wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the > mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the > charter of its creation confers upon it..." > > When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled > that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to > spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they > ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted > our well-established campaign finance laws. > > At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual > citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if > the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not > take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every > candidate for every political party at every level of American > government. > > When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it > was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. > Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily > went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their > preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more > damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single > election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. > > In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact > specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in > the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until > then, please forward this email to your friends and family to > continue building awareness about the grave implications of this > wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates > of corporate spending in American elections. > > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > Patrick Leahy > U.S. Senator > > P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community > by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know > about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at > undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision: > > http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join > > > > > > > Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. > PO Box 1042 > Montpelier, VT 05601 > > > > > > This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your > subscription management page to modify your email communication > preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from > Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply > via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). > > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 14:35:07 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:35:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> References: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Mar 10 14:49:29 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:49:29 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54900BE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> But Holly...trust me...she reads a lot of stuff!! Here it is, in her own words, without even reading from her palm: "Couric: And when it comes to establishing your worldview, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand the world? Palin: I've read most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media. Couric: What, specifically? Palin: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me all these years. Couric: Can you name a few? Palin: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news, too." The vast variety...that she actually reads. You know...all of them. Whatever is in front of her. You know. So, with that vast variety of reading, how could she possibly make mistakes? How? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:35 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From phoenixacup at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 15:21:09 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:21:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] for you eBay fans Message-ID: Looks like eBay is positioning themselves as a green company because people sell used items there. The good news is that by signing up to "take the challenge" (reuse stuff) they will buy an acre of rainforest. For you sweeps fans, they will also enter you in a sweepstakes. Caveat emptor, but it might be fun. Jane B-P *eBay Green Team Challenge* Enter to win $10K--and help protect trees Join the eBay Green Team Challenge between March 1 and April 22, and you're automatically entered in the sweepstakes for $10,000 and hundreds of other prizes. Plus, for every person that takes the challenge, eBay will protect an acre of forest! -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 15:52:37 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:52:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54900BE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54900BE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <187877.84425.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thanks Mike. That's one of my favorite Sarah Palin excerpts (that and the one about being able to see Russia from her front door having something to do with being qualified to deal with foreign policy issues). It's Sarah's flippant and idiotic arrogance combined with her ignorance that makes me believe that there's no possible hope for her improving enough to ever qualify for the presidency much less the governor's office she just bailed from. Ignorance and arrogance. A deadly combination. Traits shared by each and every one of our worst presidents throughout history. Most members of the animal kingdom don't even survive when they have such a deadly combination of these two traits. But, in Sarah's case, she seems to have an extra dose of both, combined with something that way too many people seem to categorize as "charisma" that make her even more dangerous. I shudder to think how many of us she would take down with her if she ever became president. Holly ________________________________ From: "Steele, Mike" To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:49:29 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? But Holly...trust me...she reads a lot of stuff!! Here it is, in her own words, without even reading from her palm: "Couric: And when it comes to establishing your worldview, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand the world? Palin: I've read most of them, again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media. Couric: What, specifically? Palin: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me all these years. Couric: Can you name a few? Palin: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news, too." The vast variety...that she actually reads. You know...all of them. Whatever is in front of her. You know. So, with that vast variety of reading, how could she possibly make mistakes? How? --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:35 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 18:51:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:51:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Holly T. To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 20:24:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:24:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> Message-ID: <34C932EB-B533-4D86-9C6B-81E516D455E0@verizon.net> Going across the border by train to Whitehorse doesn't bother me. Going by ferry to Juneau doesn't bother me. Gov. Palin cannot remember where her brother was taken when he needed medical attention from a burn, yet she spoke as if she did. Do we chalk that up to senility, or was she just telling a good tale? We had eight years of a President that many people described as "friendly, personable, a great guy to join for a drink". I don't want another President who is limited to shallow issues, because they cannot handle complex issues. I don't want another President who has to have a handler like Cheney or Rove to translate the big words for them. If Palin wants to become a Toastmaster, public commentator, stand up comic, or any other field that requires facile social skills, that's fine. I believe this country needs more than that in a President. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > ... > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? > > David From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 20:29:36 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <187877.84425.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <18e89.3592d7e9.38c947ae@aol.com> <501547.40878.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54900BE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <187877.84425.qm@web56106.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Holly: Probably she'd resign after a week, unless she had some "handler" like Rove or Cheney who could keep her sedated and on a short leash. ;^) WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Thanks Mike. That's one of my favorite Sarah Palin excerpts (that > and the one about being able to see Russia from her front door > having something to do with being qualified to deal with foreign > policy issues). > > It's Sarah's flippant and idiotic arrogance combined with her > ignorance that makes me believe that there's no possible hope for > her improving enough to ever qualify for the presidency much less > the governor's office she just bailed from. > > Ignorance and arrogance. A deadly combination. Traits shared by > each and every one of our worst presidents throughout history. Most > members of the animal kingdom don't even survive when they have > such a deadly combination of these two traits. But, in Sarah's > case, she seems to have an extra dose of both, combined with > something that way too many people seem to categorize as "charisma" > that make her even more dangerous. > > I shudder to think how many of us she would take down with her if > she ever became president. > > Holly > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Steele, Mike" > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 2:49:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > But Holly...trust me...she reads a lot of stuff!! Here it is, in > her own words, without even reading from her palm: > > "Couric: And when it comes to establishing your worldview, I was > curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read > before you were tapped for this to stay informed and to understand > the world? > > Palin: I've read most of them, again with a great appreciation for > the press, for the media. > > Couric: What, specifically? > > Palin: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me > all these years. > > Couric: Can you name a few? > > Palin: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news, too." > > The vast variety...that she actually reads. You know...all of > them. Whatever is in front of her. You know. > > So, with that vast variety of reading, how could she possibly make > mistakes? > > How? > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Holly T. > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:35 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again > blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to > economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you > seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me > when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. > Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have > shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ > sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic > towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following > on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. > No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning > curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all > those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think > can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big > bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't > sound very principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used > Canada's medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; > thus, I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy > does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of > the sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted > news material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun > this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The > media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without > regard to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back > in their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama > also did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an > adult! > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making > from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities > BEFORE Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of > lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit > like the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >> something else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 20:32:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:32:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and > no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from > clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Holly T. > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again > blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to > economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you > seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me > when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. > Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have > shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ > sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic > towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following > on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. > No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning > curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all > those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think > can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big > bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't > sound very principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used > Canada's medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; > thus, I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy > does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of > the sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted > news material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun > this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The > media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without > regard to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back > in their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama > also did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an > adult! > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making > from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities > BEFORE Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of > lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit > like the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >> something else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 20:32:58 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:32:58 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <34C932EB-B533-4D86-9C6B-81E516D455E0@verizon.net> References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> <34C932EB-B533-4D86-9C6B-81E516D455E0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003701cac0d3$ed9ad460$c8d07d20$@net> I would rather have a congress we could look up to and a figurehead president. We don't need a king or dictator. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:25 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Going across the border by train to Whitehorse doesn't bother me. > Going by ferry to Juneau doesn't bother me. > > Gov. Palin cannot remember where her brother was taken when he needed > medical attention from a burn, yet she spoke as if she did. Do we > chalk that up to senility, or was she just telling a good tale? > > We had eight years of a President that many people described as > "friendly, personable, a great guy to join for a drink". I don't want > another President who is limited to shallow issues, because they cannot > handle complex issues. I don't want another President who has to have > a handler like Cheney or Rove to translate the big words for them. > > If Palin wants to become a Toastmaster, public commentator, stand up > comic, or any other field that requires facile social skills, that's > fine. I believe this country needs more than that in a President. > > David > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:26 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on > time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. > > > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway > are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible > by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > ... > > The Grouch > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like > the "internet" statement, heh? > > > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 20:38:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1503548266.13195201268282292292.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The sources???? Him on live TV. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and > no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from > clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Holly T. > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again > blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to > economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you > seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me > when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. > Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have > shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ > sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic > towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following > on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. > No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning > curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all > those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think > can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big > bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't > sound very principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used > Canada's medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; > thus, I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy > does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of > the sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted > news material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun > this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The > media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without > regard to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back > in their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama > also did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an > adult! > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making > from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or > Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities > BEFORE Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of > lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is > Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit > like the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >> something else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Wed Mar 10 20:48:04 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:48:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <2f79c.13bf9a5b.38c96ff7@aol.com> References: <2f79c.13bf9a5b.38c96ff7@aol.com> Message-ID: <201003102048.04871.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. Typical of people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That speaks volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think maybe the message is worth listening to. On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. > Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure I can find > more blusterous actions by this guy. > Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will benefit > him and his colleagues. > > Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to "Go." > > _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ > (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Patrick Leahy" > > Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST > > To: "Walt Wentz" > > Subject: Undoing the harm > > Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org > > > > > > Dear Walt, > > > > Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a > > narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens > > United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate > > Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light > > of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political > > process from excessive corporate spending. > > > > The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of > > Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, > > not corporations. After all, corporations are different from > > individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or > > motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed > > to conduct commerce, nothing more. > > > > The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and > > they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he > > wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the > > mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the > > charter of its creation confers upon it..." > > > > When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled > > that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to > > spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they > > ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted > > our well-established campaign finance laws. > > > > At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual > > citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if > > the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not > > take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every > > candidate for every political party at every level of American > > government. > > > > When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it > > was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. > > Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily > > went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their > > preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more > > damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single > > election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. > > > > In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact > > specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in > > the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until > > then, please forward this email to your friends and family to > > continue building awareness about the grave implications of this > > wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates > > of corporate spending in American elections. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Patrick Leahy > > U.S. Senator > > > > P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community > > by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know > > about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at > > undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision: > > > > http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. > > PO Box 1042 > > Montpelier, VT 05601 > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your > > subscription management page to modify your email communication > > preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from > > Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply > > via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:03:57 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:03:57 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm Message-ID: <49de3.6739e2f4.38c9d3bd@aol.com> Your response makes me think you did not read the link. I was pointing out the guy is not what he seems and is also a part of the problem we have in DC. Most politicians have done some things correct at one time or another, but it is all too often they have ulterior motives. He is no different. We need to get all special interest out of DC. Let the politicians learn to get advice from their constituents. Some seem to be trying to do this now, but I also believe they still have an ear listening to the special interest at the same time. The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 11:48:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mbliss at agora.rdrop.com writes: Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. Typical of people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That speaks volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think maybe the message is worth listening to. On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. > Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure I can find > more blusterous actions by this guy. > Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will benefit > him and his colleagues. > > Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to "Go." > > _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ > (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Patrick Leahy" > > Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST > > To: "Walt Wentz" > > Subject: Undoing the harm > > Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org > > > > > > Dear Walt, > > > > Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a > > narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens > > United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate > > Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light > > of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political > > process from excessive corporate spending. > > > > The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of > > Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, > > not corporations. After all, corporations are different from > > individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or > > motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed > > to conduct commerce, nothing more. > > > > The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and > > they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he > > wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the > > mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the > > charter of its creation confers upon it..." > > > > When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled > > that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to > > spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they > > ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted > > our well-established campaign finance laws. > > > > At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual > > citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if > > the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not > > take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every > > candidate for every political party at every level of American > > government. > > > > When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it > > was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. > > Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily > > went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their > > preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more > > damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single > > election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. > > > > In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact > > specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in > > the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until > > then, please forward this email to your friends and family to > > continue building awareness about the grave implications of this > > wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates > > of corporate spending in American elections. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Patrick Leahy > > U.S. Senator > > > > P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community > > by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know > > about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at > > undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision: > > > > http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. > > PO Box 1042 > > Montpelier, VT 05601 > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your > > subscription management page to modify your email communication > > preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from > > Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply > > via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:04:49 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:04:49 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what I can tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then twisted to meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get confused and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his share of gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To find them, you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if you are interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most politicians have made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than their share (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long time. By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. There are too many far better candidates available. Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think she might be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with anything she does! LOL Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything she does? As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that one was that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the subject. Gee, should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and are unable to get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are called 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are breaking our laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from you, if you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that sometimes.) You are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans are supposed to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be the smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the Black, the Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true facts. They only voice it. By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the right to rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they are only trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with your double speak. I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like Obama. May God have mercy on your soul, The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:05:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:05:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <725F36F4-6D7C-4FE2-B9AF-2252F50227D6@verizon.net> Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:09:34 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:09:34 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <003701cac0d3$ed9ad460$c8d07d20$@net> References: <3e5d.55288933.38c8dbd9@aol.com> <34C932EB-B533-4D86-9C6B-81E516D455E0@verizon.net> <003701cac0d3$ed9ad460$c8d07d20$@net> Message-ID: <9975D29E-86AE-49BC-A884-62FA6A8C4993@verizon.net> We are close to agreeing on that statement. I would like to have a Congress we could look up to. And we don't need a king or a dictator. The Constitution calls for a President as the Chief Executive, and I do believe that we benefit from having that position in constructive tension with the Congress. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Steven wrote: > I would rather have a congress we could look up to and a figurehead president. We don't need a king or dictator. From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:12:06 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:12:06 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <4a1e1.87096f0.38c9d5a6@aol.com> They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! Laughable! The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:13:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:13:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> References: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> Message-ID: How about a Right, Fascist or Oligarch? David > I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like Obama. > > May God have mercy on your soul, > The Grouch From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:15:18 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:15:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1503548266.13195201268282292292.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1503548266.13195201268282292292.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <47086EAF-5D56-47AA-BC71-24FE3D585096@teleport.com> On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > The sources???? > Him on live TV. Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been documented and codified for public research? In short, are you willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already overheated debate? WW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >> no experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, > and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars > ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) > WW >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Holly T. >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >> Check mate! >> >> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >> >> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >> on Fox News: >> >> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >> light >> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're >> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >> first >> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >> that >> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >> >> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >> >> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >> >> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >> sound very principled to me. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >> and will >> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >> You are >> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >> >> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >> PARENTS >> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >> medicine, to >> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >> converted to >> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >> Canada's medical >> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >> regard to >> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >> 'lack of >> principles' than any other politician of today.} >> >> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >> thus, I >> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >> does >> time fly.) >> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >> Alaska while >> an infant. >> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >> national >> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >> taken to >> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >> [This would >> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >> >> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >> not read >> any such thing. >> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >> the sort. If >> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >> direction her >> parents. >> >> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her >> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >> news material >> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >> implied. >> >> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >> converted >> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >> >> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >> this >> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >> the more. The >> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >> they lack >> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >> but not to >> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >> context, then >> putting some goofy spin to it. >> >> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >> medicine >> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >> one time in >> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >> treatment of any >> kind.] >> >> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >> >> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any >> principle. >> >> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >> had to >> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >> media >> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >> another speech >> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do >> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >> regard to >> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >> in their >> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >> also did >> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >> another level to >> the spin of lies. >> >> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >> adult! >> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >> article >> completely with comprehension without bias. >> >> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >> name for >> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >> >> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >> postings: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >> >> May God have mercy on your soul! >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT >> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >> change >> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >> women like >> that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking medical >> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >> medicine. >> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >> DOESN'T >> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it >> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >> and >> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >> Canada only >> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >> factors, I >> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >> they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, >> Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >> from >> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >> helicopter >> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >> the air during >> her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you have >> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party >> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >> treatments when you >> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >> person and >> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >> medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >> Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It >> would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >> and what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by >> ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >> BEFORE Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >> lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >> Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >> like the >> >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>> lived in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor >> that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the >> nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >> about her >> life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >> up not >> far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>> good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >> having to >> travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 21:15:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <9975D29E-86AE-49BC-A884-62FA6A8C4993@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1075618753.13205971268284533768.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I agree we need a congress we could look up to. A good start would be keeping the oath of office. Honesty breeds confidence. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:09:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? We are close to agreeing on that statement. I would like to have a Congress we could look up to. And we don't need a king or a dictator. The Constitution calls for a President as the Chief Executive, and I do believe that we benefit from having that position in constructive tension with the Congress. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:32 PM, Steven wrote: > I would rather have a congress we could look up to and a figurehead president. We don't need a king or dictator. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:18:18 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:18:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <201003102048.04871.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> References: <2f79c.13bf9a5b.38c96ff7@aol.com> <201003102048.04871.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Yep! Odd how people calling for the rule of law are often denounced, defamed, disrespected and slandered. On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Meredith Bliss wrote: > Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. > Typical of > people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That > speaks > volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think > maybe the > message is worth listening to. > > On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. >> Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure I >> can find >> more blusterous actions by this guy. >> Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will >> benefit >> him and his colleagues. >> >> Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs >> to "Go." >> >> _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ >> (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: "Patrick Leahy" >>> Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST >>> To: "Walt Wentz" >>> Subject: Undoing the harm >>> Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org >>> >>> >>> Dear Walt, >>> >>> Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a >>> narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens >>> United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate >>> Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light >>> of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political >>> process from excessive corporate spending. >>> >>> The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of >>> Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, >>> not corporations. After all, corporations are different from >>> individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or >>> motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed >>> to conduct commerce, nothing more. >>> >>> The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and >>> they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he >>> wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the >>> mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the >>> charter of its creation confers upon it..." >>> >>> When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled >>> that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to >>> spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they >>> ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted >>> our well-established campaign finance laws. >>> >>> At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual >>> citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if >>> the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not >>> take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every >>> candidate for every political party at every level of American >>> government. >>> >>> When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it >>> was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. >>> Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily >>> went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their >>> preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more >>> damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single >>> election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. >>> >>> In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact >>> specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in >>> the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until >>> then, please forward this email to your friends and family to >>> continue building awareness about the grave implications of this >>> wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates >>> of corporate spending in American elections. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Patrick Leahy >>> U.S. Senator >>> >>> P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community >>> by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know >>> about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at >>> undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens >>> Uniteddecision: >>> >>> http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. >>> PO Box 1042 >>> Montpelier, VT 05601 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your >>> subscription management page to modify your email communication >>> preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from >>> Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply >>> via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------- > Just happy to be here, but speaking > only for myself! > Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss > ---------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:21:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:21:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4a1e1.87096f0.38c9d5a6@aol.com> References: <4a1e1.87096f0.38c9d5a6@aol.com> Message-ID: <684D6F9A-816B-4C02-937F-933444C00873@verizon.net> So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 21:24:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:24:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <47086EAF-5D56-47AA-BC71-24FE3D585096@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1820667023.13208341268285043862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and heard it. The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is with. One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a thousand more lies just like that. No one could make that up. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > The sources???? > Him on live TV. Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been documented and codified for public research? In short, are you willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already overheated debate? WW > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >> no experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, > and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars > ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) > WW >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Holly T. >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >> Check mate! >> >> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >> >> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >> on Fox News: >> >> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >> light >> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're >> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >> first >> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >> that >> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >> >> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >> >> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >> >> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >> sound very principled to me. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >> and will >> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >> You are >> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >> >> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >> PARENTS >> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >> medicine, to >> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >> converted to >> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >> Canada's medical >> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >> regard to >> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >> 'lack of >> principles' than any other politician of today.} >> >> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >> thus, I >> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >> does >> time fly.) >> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >> Alaska while >> an infant. >> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >> national >> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >> taken to >> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >> [This would >> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >> >> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >> not read >> any such thing. >> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >> the sort. If >> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >> direction her >> parents. >> >> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her >> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >> news material >> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >> implied. >> >> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >> converted >> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >> >> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >> this >> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >> the more. The >> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >> they lack >> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >> but not to >> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >> context, then >> putting some goofy spin to it. >> >> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >> medicine >> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >> one time in >> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >> treatment of any >> kind.] >> >> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >> >> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any >> principle. >> >> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >> had to >> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >> media >> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >> another speech >> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do >> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >> regard to >> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >> in their >> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >> also did >> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >> another level to >> the spin of lies. >> >> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >> adult! >> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >> article >> completely with comprehension without bias. >> >> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >> name for >> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >> >> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >> postings: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >> >> May God have mercy on your soul! >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT >> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >> change >> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >> women like >> that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking medical >> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >> medicine. >> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >> DOESN'T >> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it >> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >> and >> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >> Canada only >> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >> factors, I >> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >> they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, >> Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >> from >> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >> helicopter >> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >> the air during >> her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you have >> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party >> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >> treatments when you >> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >> person and >> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >> medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >> Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It >> would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >> and what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by >> ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >> BEFORE Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >> lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >> Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >> like the >> >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>> lived in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor >> that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the >> nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >> about her >> life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >> up not >> far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>> good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >> having to >> travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:24:23 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:24:23 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <4a808.5de141f1.38c9d887@aol.com> I might vote for some of them over what I would not vote for, just to keep the others out of office. I won't say which I would vote for though. Usually, there are more choices. I have no intentions to reveal my voting trend. I try to keep that private. I like to read about the candidates I find myself interested in from many sources. Sometimes, I may find I voted for the wrong one, but am sure that others have found themselves regretting their vote at some point. Has there ever been a candidate that I could wholly agree with, no. Ya'll still trying to pin a political party on me? So you can label me? The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:14:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: How about a Right, Fascist or Oligarch? David > I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like Obama. > > May God have mercy on your soul, > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:26:13 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:26:13 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <4a902.5ad9ead3.38c9d8f5@aol.com> I have no idea- do you? In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:22:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:27:05 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:27:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1075618753.13205971268284533768.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1075618753.13205971268284533768.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5C9AB2FC-F616-4C90-BACA-861D717F4195@verizon.net> I like the part of the Oath where they say they will preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. That would involve removing the warrantless wire taps, incarceration without charges, access to attorneys, ability to face the accuser, freedom of speech, recognition that human beings are different from inanimate objects like corporations, and things like that. Right? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:15 PM, donkelly wrote: > I agree we need a congress we could look up to. > > A good start would be keeping the oath of office. > > Honesty breeds confidence. > > don From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:28:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:28:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <49de3.6739e2f4.38c9d3bd@aol.com> References: <49de3.6739e2f4.38c9d3bd@aol.com> Message-ID: In other words, we should burn down the barn to get rid of the flies? In reality, G., many politicians really are patriots seeking to serve their country. Others are second-rate men (and women) who couldn't make it in the workaday world, and gravitated to a cushy job with guaranteed salary and benefits. To lump them all in one category is simplistic and pointless. If you dig deeply enough, i am sure you could "dig up something" about Leahy. Maybe he once kicked a dog. Maybe he once had an affair. So bloody what? Does that affect the quality or lack of same in his ideas? Face it, your efforts would probably be superfluous anyhow... I'm sure the RNC has its stable of muckrakers working at high speed, trying to derail the man's proposals by "digging up something." Ugh. Vultures and maggots may serve a useful biological purpose, but I've never been fond of either. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:03 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Your response makes me think you did not read the link. > I was pointing out the guy is not what he seems and is also a part > of the > problem we have in DC. > Most politicians have done some things correct at one time or > another, but > it is all too often they have ulterior motives. He is no different. > > We need to get all special interest out of DC. > Let the politicians learn to get advice from their constituents. Some > seem to be trying to do this now, but I also believe they still > have an ear > listening to the special interest at the same time. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 11:48:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > mbliss at agora.rdrop.com writes: > > Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. > Typical > of > people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That > speaks > volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think > maybe the > message is worth listening to. > > On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. >> Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure >> I can > find >> more blusterous actions by this guy. >> Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will > benefit >> him and his colleagues. >> >> Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to > "Go." >> >> _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ >> (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: "Patrick Leahy" >>> Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST >>> To: "Walt Wentz" >>> Subject: Undoing the harm >>> Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org >>> >>> >>> Dear Walt, >>> >>> Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a >>> narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens >>> United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate >>> Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light >>> of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political >>> process from excessive corporate spending. >>> >>> The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of >>> Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, >>> not corporations. After all, corporations are different from >>> individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or >>> motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed >>> to conduct commerce, nothing more. >>> >>> The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and >>> they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall >>> when he >>> wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the >>> mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the >>> charter of its creation confers upon it..." >>> >>> When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled >>> that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to >>> spend as much as they like to influence the political process, >>> they >>> ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively >>> redrafted >>> our well-established campaign finance laws. >>> >>> At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual >>> citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if >>> the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not >>> take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every >>> candidate for every political party at every level of American >>> government. >>> >>> When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it >>> was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. >>> Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court >>> unnecessarily >>> went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their >>> preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more >>> damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single >>> election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. >>> >>> In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact >>> specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in >>> the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until >>> then, please forward this email to your friends and family to >>> continue building awareness about the grave implications of this >>> wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates >>> of corporate spending in American elections. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Patrick Leahy >>> U.S. Senator >>> >>> P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our >>> community >>> by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know >>> about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, >>> aimed at >>> undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens >>> Uniteddecision: >>> >>> http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. >>> PO Box 1042 >>> Montpelier, VT 05601 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your >>> subscription management page to modify your email communication >>> preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email >>> from >>> Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or >>> reply >>> via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------- > Just happy to be here, but speaking > only for myself! > Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss > ---------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 21:29:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:29:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4a902.5ad9ead3.38c9d8f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <1484481039.13209711268285381869.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hint, shouldn't that be all of us? They work for us don't they? They have to satisfy us don't they? Or they are fired aren't they? When they become tin gods, isn't the shoe on the wrong foot? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? I have no idea- do you? In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:22:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:29:38 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:29:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Elections: Was -Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <49de3.6739e2f4.38c9d3bd@aol.com> References: <49de3.6739e2f4.38c9d3bd@aol.com> Message-ID: Where do you stand as far as real election reform goes? I totally agree that we need to get the special interests out of DC. But the reality facing politicians right now is that if they want to keep their jobs (which most seem to want) they have to raise large sums of money. Large sums of money come from big donors and special interests. Do you support efforts to go to public financing of elections? Do you/would you if we had to pay a small tax to do it? How do you feel about instant run off voting to let third party candidates get some traction and have their campaigns taken seriously? The question is how do we get our elections back when the Supreme Court just handed corporations greater leeway to influence candidates? Katie On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:03 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > .... > > We need to get all special interest out of DC. > Let the politicians learn to get advice from their constituents. Some > seem to be trying to do this now, but I also believe they still > have an ear > listening to the special interest at the same time. > > The Grouch > From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:32:52 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:32:52 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm Message-ID: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> I had no trouble finding that link. I dropped his name into google and that link was in the top 5 and happened to be the first I clicked on. I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually like them to be doing. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:28:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: In other words, we should burn down the barn to get rid of the flies? In reality, G., many politicians really are patriots seeking to serve their country. Others are second-rate men (and women) who couldn't make it in the workaday world, and gravitated to a cushy job with guaranteed salary and benefits. To lump them all in one category is simplistic and pointless. If you dig deeply enough, i am sure you could "dig up something" about Leahy. Maybe he once kicked a dog. Maybe he once had an affair. So bloody what? Does that affect the quality or lack of same in his ideas? Face it, your efforts would probably be superfluous anyhow... I'm sure the RNC has its stable of muckrakers working at high speed, trying to derail the man's proposals by "digging up something." Ugh. Vultures and maggots may serve a useful biological purpose, but I've never been fond of either. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:03 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Your response makes me think you did not read the link. > I was pointing out the guy is not what he seems and is also a part > of the > problem we have in DC. > Most politicians have done some things correct at one time or > another, but > it is all too often they have ulterior motives. He is no different. > > We need to get all special interest out of DC. > Let the politicians learn to get advice from their constituents. Some > seem to be trying to do this now, but I also believe they still > have an ear > listening to the special interest at the same time. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 11:48:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > mbliss at agora.rdrop.com writes: > > Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. > Typical > of > people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That > speaks > volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think > maybe the > message is worth listening to. > > On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. >> Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure >> I can > find >> more blusterous actions by this guy. >> Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will > benefit >> him and his colleagues. >> >> Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to > "Go." >> >> _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ >> (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... >> >> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: "Patrick Leahy" >>> Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST >>> To: "Walt Wentz" >>> Subject: Undoing the harm >>> Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org >>> >>> >>> Dear Walt, >>> >>> Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a >>> narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens >>> United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate >>> Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light >>> of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political >>> process from excessive corporate spending. >>> >>> The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of >>> Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, >>> not corporations. After all, corporations are different from >>> individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or >>> motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed >>> to conduct commerce, nothing more. >>> >>> The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and >>> they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall >>> when he >>> wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the >>> mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the >>> charter of its creation confers upon it..." >>> >>> When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled >>> that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to >>> spend as much as they like to influence the political process, >>> they >>> ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively >>> redrafted >>> our well-established campaign finance laws. >>> >>> At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual >>> citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if >>> the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not >>> take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every >>> candidate for every political party at every level of American >>> government. >>> >>> When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it >>> was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. >>> Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court >>> unnecessarily >>> went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their >>> preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more >>> damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single >>> election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. >>> >>> In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact >>> specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in >>> the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until >>> then, please forward this email to your friends and family to >>> continue building awareness about the grave implications of this >>> wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates >>> of corporate spending in American elections. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Patrick Leahy >>> U.S. Senator >>> >>> P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our >>> community >>> by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know >>> about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, >>> aimed at >>> undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens >>> Uniteddecision: >>> >>> http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. >>> PO Box 1042 >>> Montpelier, VT 05601 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your >>> subscription management page to modify your email communication >>> preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email >>> from >>> Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or >>> reply >>> via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------- > Just happy to be here, but speaking > only for myself! > Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss > ---------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:33:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:33:31 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> References: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> Message-ID: OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at all? Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. Not necessarily in that order. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! > You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what > I can > tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then > twisted to > meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. > > You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get > confused > and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his share of > gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To > find them, > you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if > you are > interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most > politicians have > made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than > their share > (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) > > You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long > time. > > By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. > There are too many far better candidates available. > > Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? > I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think > she might > be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with > anything she > does! LOL > Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything > she does? > > As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that > one was > that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the > subject. Gee, > should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and > are unable to > get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are called > 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are > breaking our > laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from > you, if > you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that > sometimes.) You > are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans > are supposed > to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be > the > smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the > Black, the > Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true > facts. They > only voice it. > > By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the > right to > rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they > are only > trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with > your > double speak. > > I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like > Obama. > > May God have mercy on your soul, > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly > (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly > butchering > facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her > laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an > astonishingly nasty dose > of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to > see how > you'd react. Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to > defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. > Palin > with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, > many gaffes (see > http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for > starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? > At least I never said the following on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the > light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the > first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten > up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes > for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No > matter how > long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a > million > years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska > to form > that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just > drill baby > drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term > as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the > lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very > principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, > to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada > converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's > medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed > '84; thus, > I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - > boy does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This > would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything > of the > sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news > material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being > spun this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. > The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not > to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, > then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time > in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of > any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. > The media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another > speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience > without regard > to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to > back in > their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your > Obama also > did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another > level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as > an adult! > > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name > for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women > like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking > medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer > and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada > only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's > making from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air > during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you > have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments > when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person > and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada > or Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are > a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE > Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins > of lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it > is Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A > bit like > the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the > closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >> good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something > else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:40:13 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:40:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4a902.5ad9ead3.38c9d8f5@aol.com> References: <4a902.5ad9ead3.38c9d8f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <92819D61-F6B8-4E45-82CE-ECD87B025D6D@verizon.net> I am not a Republican. I don't get to choose their leaders. A sitting President is usually considered to be the spokesperson for their party. The Party out of power finds their voice in someone else. In this case, they don't have the Speaker of the House or the President pro temore of the Senate. California may be the most populous state with a Republican governor, should Arnold S speak for the R's? Limbaugh is certainly a notable personage, with high public visibility and public recognition. Should his vitriol be taken as Republican gospel? If the "Dems consider the lowest denominator", perhaps you can suggest someone better. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:26 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > I have no idea- do you? > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:22:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare > him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look > good! >> Laughable! >> >> The Grouch From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:44:31 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:44:31 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <4b0d5.1e3bd3ed.38c9dd3f@aol.com> I will respond to this like a good 'left winger' Are you attacking the messenger because you did not understand what I was implying and took it to mean something other than what I meant? I will also toss in a hint to what I mean, Obama is a radical. 'Like' has several definitions. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:33:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at all? Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. Not necessarily in that order. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! > You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what > I can > tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then > twisted to > meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. > > You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get > confused > and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his share of > gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To > find them, > you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if > you are > interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most > politicians have > made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than > their share > (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) > > You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long > time. > > By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. > There are too many far better candidates available. > > Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? > I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think > she might > be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with > anything she > does! LOL > Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything > she does? > > As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that > one was > that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the > subject. Gee, > should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and > are unable to > get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are called > 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are > breaking our > laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from > you, if > you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that > sometimes.) You > are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans > are supposed > to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be > the > smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the > Black, the > Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true > facts. They > only voice it. > > By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the > right to > rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they > are only > trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with > your > double speak. > > I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like > Obama. > > May God have mercy on your soul, > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly > (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly > butchering > facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her > laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an > astonishingly nasty dose > of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to > see how > you'd react. Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to > defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. > Palin > with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, > many gaffes (see > http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for > starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? > At least I never said the following on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the > light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the > first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten > up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes > for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No > matter how > long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a > million > years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska > to form > that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just > drill baby > drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term > as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the > lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very > principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, > to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada > converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's > medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed > '84; thus, > I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - > boy does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This > would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything > of the > sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news > material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being > spun this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. > The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not > to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, > then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time > in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of > any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. > The media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another > speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience > without regard > to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to > back in > their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your > Obama also > did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another > level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as > an adult! > > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name > for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women > like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking > medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer > and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada > only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's > making from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air > during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you > have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments > when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person > and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada > or Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are > a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE > Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins > of lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it > is Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A > bit like > the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the > closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >> good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something > else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:48:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:48:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> Message-ID: <77B634DC-77D3-4788-8243-F62E501D7C42@teleport.com> Yep, on that we agree. Power corrupts, especially over a period of time. Are term limits the answer? Or would we lose some truly valuable people if we swept everyone out of Congress after three terms? Since politicians can be bought by corporate campaign donations, should we have publicly funded campaigns? Maybe it would cost a bit more in taxes... but some Independent candidates might have a chance for a change, and we could break the stranglehold of the two-party system and the lobbying industry on our government. And, if our political campaigns (and politicians) couldn't be bought up by the big corporations, maybe the rest of us would actually have more money in our pockets to pay for that public funding... On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > I had no trouble finding that link. I dropped his name into google and > that link was in the top 5 and happened to be the first I clicked > on. > > I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean > well, but > after they have been in office very long their ear gets pulled in > other > directions than what the 'People" would actually like them to be > doing. > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:28:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > In other words, we should burn down the barn to get rid of the flies? > In reality, G., many politicians really are patriots seeking to serve > their country. Others are second-rate men (and women) who couldn't > make it in the workaday world, and gravitated to a cushy job with > guaranteed salary and benefits. To lump them all in one category is > simplistic and pointless. If you dig deeply enough, i am sure you > could "dig up something" about Leahy. Maybe he once kicked a dog. > Maybe he once had an affair. So bloody what? Does that affect the > quality or lack of same in his ideas? Face it, your efforts would > probably be superfluous anyhow... I'm sure the RNC has its stable of > muckrakers working at high speed, trying to derail the man's > proposals by "digging up something." > Ugh. Vultures and maggots may serve a useful biological purpose, but > I've never been fond of either. > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:03 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Your response makes me think you did not read the link. >> I was pointing out the guy is not what he seems and is also a part >> of the >> problem we have in DC. >> Most politicians have done some things correct at one time or >> another, but >> it is all too often they have ulterior motives. He is no >> different. >> >> We need to get all special interest out of DC. >> Let the politicians learn to get advice from their constituents. >> Some >> seem to be trying to do this now, but I also believe they still >> have an ear >> listening to the special interest at the same time. >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 11:48:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> mbliss at agora.rdrop.com writes: >> >> Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. >> Typical >> of >> people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That >> speaks >> volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think >> maybe the >> message is worth listening to. >> >> On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions >>> equalized. >>> Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure >>> I can >> find >>> more blusterous actions by this guy. >>> Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will >> benefit >>> him and his colleagues. >>> >>> Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that >>> needs to >> "Go." >>> >>> _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ >>> (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> waltw at teleport.com writes: >>> >>> Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> From: "Patrick Leahy" >>>> Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST >>>> To: "Walt Wentz" >>>> Subject: Undoing the harm >>>> Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Walt, >>>> >>>> Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a >>>> narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent >>>> Citizens >>>> United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate >>>> Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in >>>> light >>>> of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political >>>> process from excessive corporate spending. >>>> >>>> The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a >>>> Bill of >>>> Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American >>>> people, >>>> not corporations. After all, corporations are different from >>>> individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, >>>> morals, or >>>> motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs >>>> designed >>>> to conduct commerce, nothing more. >>>> >>>> The differences between people and corporations are obvious, >>>> and >>>> they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall >>>> when he >>>> wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial >>>> being ... the >>>> mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties >>>> which the >>>> charter of its creation confers upon it..." >>>> >>>> When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court >>>> ruled >>>> that corporations have the same rights as individual >>>> citizens to >>>> spend as much as they like to influence the political process, >>>> they >>>> ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively >>>> redrafted >>>> our well-established campaign finance laws. >>>> >>>> At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual >>>> citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. >>>> But if >>>> the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not >>>> take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend >>>> every >>>> candidate for every political party at every level of American >>>> government. >>>> >>>> When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said >>>> that it >>>> was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. >>>> Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court >>>> unnecessarily >>>> went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their >>>> preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more >>>> damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single >>>> election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. >>>> >>>> In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact >>>> specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic >>>> process in >>>> the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until >>>> then, please forward this email to your friends and family to >>>> continue building awareness about the grave implications of >>>> this >>>> wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the >>>> floodgates >>>> of corporate spending in American elections. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Patrick Leahy >>>> U.S. Senator >>>> >>>> P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our >>>> community >>>> by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know >>>> about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, >>>> aimed at >>>> undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens >>>> Uniteddecision: >>>> >>>> http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. >>>> PO Box 1042 >>>> Montpelier, VT 05601 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your >>>> subscription management page to modify your email communication >>>> preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email >>>> from >>>> Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or >>>> reply >>>> via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------- >> Just happy to be here, but speaking >> only for myself! >> Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 21:51:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:51:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4a1e1.87096f0.38c9d5a6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1933668486.13215541268286685562.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Trying to make Obama look good would be a full time job. Where there is a pile of horse crap, there must be a pony in there somewhere. How about this one? Health care bill will be discussed in the open and aired live by CSPAN? Well WW, was it? And that not being a good enough lie, he told the same one six more times. And the lies parade endlessly by, but only the blind can't see it. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:12:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! Laughable! The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 21:52:10 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:52:10 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Message-ID: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! As it happened in Portland. How many states do we have ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! The Grouch From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:53:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:53:35 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <92819D61-F6B8-4E45-82CE-ECD87B025D6D@verizon.net> References: <4a902.5ad9ead3.38c9d8f5@aol.com> <92819D61-F6B8-4E45-82CE-ECD87B025D6D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <13BCE583-B2F6-4579-AE67-163A7AFF208E@teleport.com> Well, Michael Steele is the Chairman of the RNC, and so one would naturally think that he is the "official" spokesman for the Republicans. And yet... When he curtly dismissed Rush Limbaugh as an "entertainer," a day or so later he was forced to come crawling back with a servile apology. So, who's the boss there? WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:40 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I am not a Republican. I don't get to choose their leaders. > > A sitting President is usually considered to be the spokesperson > for their party. The Party out of power finds their voice in > someone else. In this case, they don't have the Speaker of the > House or the President pro temore of the Senate. > > California may be the most populous state with a Republican > governor, should Arnold S speak for the R's? > > Limbaugh is certainly a notable personage, with high public > visibility and public recognition. Should his vitriol be taken as > Republican gospel? > > If the "Dems consider the lowest denominator", perhaps you can > suggest someone better. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:26 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> I have no idea- do you? >> >> >> In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:22:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these >> days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea >> Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to >>> compare >> him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him >> look >> good! >>> Laughable! >>> >>> The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 21:54:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:54:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> Message-ID: <1634015920.13216051268286853431.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hint, how many muslim countries are there? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:52:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Had to dig this one up... just too funny! As it happened in Portland. How many states do we have ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 21:57:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:57:46 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> Message-ID: <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the People". We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or energy policy? Or environmental policy? We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot muster a plurality of the votes. Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following the "political wind". If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to political advertising that runs counter to their long term interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the common public. So, what do the people really want? Who is John Gault anyway? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually like them to be doing. > > The Grouch From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 21:59:36 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:59:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <4b0d5.1e3bd3ed.38c9dd3f@aol.com> References: <4b0d5.1e3bd3ed.38c9dd3f@aol.com> Message-ID: OK, "radical" covers a lot of ground. Good and Bad. I like to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, and think he wants to make some radical improvements in the lives of ordinary Americans... i.e., reforming health care, bringing jobs home, winding up some stupid and disastrous projects of the previous administration, radically curbing the unholy power of gigantic financial institutions. In those departments at least, i can use all the radical he can dish out. If Obama was named Patrick Flynn O'Bama and had red hair and freckles, would he still be regarded as "radical?" WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:44 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > I will respond to this like a good 'left winger' > Are you attacking the messenger because you did not understand > what I was > implying and took it to mean something other than what I meant? > > I will also toss in a hint to what I mean, Obama is a radical. > 'Like' has several definitions. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:33:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? > Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on > Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at > all? > Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. > Not necessarily in that order. > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! >> You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what >> I can >> tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then >> twisted to >> meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. >> >> You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get >> confused >> and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his >> share of >> gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To >> find them, >> you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if >> you are >> interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most >> politicians have >> made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than >> their share >> (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) >> >> You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long >> time. >> >> By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. >> There are too many far better candidates available. >> >> Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? >> I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think >> she might >> be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with >> anything she >> does! LOL >> Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything >> she does? >> >> As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that >> one was >> that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the >> subject. Gee, >> should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and >> are unable to >> get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are >> called >> 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are >> breaking our >> laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from >> you, if >> you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that >> sometimes.) You >> are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans >> are supposed >> to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be >> the >> smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the >> Black, the >> Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true >> facts. They >> only voice it. >> >> By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the >> right to >> rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they >> are only >> trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with >> your >> double speak. >> >> I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like >> Obama. >> >> May God have mercy on your soul, >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> >> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >> gallantly >> (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly >> butchering >> facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due >> to her >> laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an >> astonishingly nasty dose >> of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to >> see how >> you'd react. Check mate! >> >> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >> you to >> defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. >> Palin >> with respect to her fact twistings. >> >> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >> many, >> many gaffes (see >> http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for >> starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little >> skew? >> At least I never said the following on Fox News: >> >> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >> light >> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >> we're >> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >> first >> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >> that >> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, >> 2008 >> >> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >> lighten >> up as Walt so wisely recommended. >> >> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >> takes >> for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No >> matter how >> long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a >> million >> years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska >> to form >> that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just >> drill baby >> drill. >> >> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >> their term >> as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks >> from the >> lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very >> principled to me. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >> and will >> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >> You are >> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >> >> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >> PARENTS >> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >> medicine, >> to >> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >> converted to >> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >> Canada's >> medical >> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >> regard to >> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >> 'lack of >> principles' than any other politician of today.} >> >> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >> '84; thus, >> I >> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >> boy does >> time fly.) >> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >> Alaska while >> >> an infant. >> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >> national >> >> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >> taken to >> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >> [This >> would >> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >> >> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >> not read >> any such thing. >> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything >> of the >> sort. If >> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >> direction her >> parents. >> >> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis >> that her >> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >> news >> material >> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >> implied. >> >> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >> converted >> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >> >> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being >> spun this >> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >> the more. >> The >> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >> they lack >> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >> but not >> to >> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >> context, >> then >> putting some goofy spin to it. >> >> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >> medicine >> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >> one time >> in >> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >> treatment of >> any >> kind.] >> >> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >> >> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is >> lacking any >> principle. >> >> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >> had to >> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. >> The media >> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >> another >> speech >> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >> would do >> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >> without regard >> to >> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >> back in >> their >> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your >> Obama also >> did >> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >> were >> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >> another >> level to >> the spin of lies. >> >> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as >> an adult! >> >> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >> article >> completely with comprehension without bias. >> >> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >> name >> for >> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >> >> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >> postings: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >> >> May God have mercy on your soul! >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT >> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >> change >> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >> women >> like >> that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >> socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking >> medical >> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >> socialized >> medicine. >> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >> DOESN'T >> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it >> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >> and >> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >> Canada >> only >> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >> factors, I >> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >> they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >> Whitehorse, >> Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >> making from >> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >> helicopter >> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >> the air >> during >> her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you >> have >> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >> party >> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >> treatments >> when you >> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >> person >> and >> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >> medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada >> or Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It >> would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >> and what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are >> a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >> accessible by >> ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >> BEFORE >> Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins >> of lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >> have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it >> is Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A >> bit like >> the >> >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>> lived in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor >> that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >> permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely >> that the >> nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >> about her >> life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >> up not >> far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>> good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >> having to >> travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something >> else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:02:19 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:02:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1528586995.13217311268287339311.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think in a general way, in two lines: 1. keep it like it was before. 2. use the money instead to end corruption in the health care system. Idealistic? Realistic? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:57:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the People". We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or energy policy? Or environmental policy? We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot muster a plurality of the votes. Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following the "political wind". If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to political advertising that runs counter to their long term interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the common public. So, what do the people really want? Who is John Gault anyway? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually like them to be doing. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 22:05:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:05:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1933668486.13215541268286685562.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1933668486.13215541268286685562.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <9A6B3FCB-0FE0-4E51-A1E0-867C5854EE13@teleport.com> Nope, it wasn't. Can't have a debate when one side stonewalls, only a monologue. So, was that a lie, or only a an offer that could not be kept? Which is worse, to repeatedly request bipartisanship and be repeatedly rebuffed, or to finally give up, go it alone and then be denounced as a liar? Again, vague, sweeping accusations against a man's character, with nothing except opinion to back them up, just don't buy it. So am I blind, or just not hypersensitive and hypercritical? WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > Trying to make Obama look good would be a full time job. > > Where there is a pile of horse crap, there must be a pony in there > somewhere. > > How about this one? > > Health care bill will be discussed in the open and aired live by > CSPAN? > > Well WW, was it? > > And that not being a good enough lie, he told the same one six more > times. > > And the lies parade endlessly by, but only the blind can't see it. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamsm at aol.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:12:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to > compare him > to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look > good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl > Rove, Dick > Cheney? > > "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? > > Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. > Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. > > Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor > Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator > > Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years > Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years > > Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. > Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. > Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. > > Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their > Presidential > candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications >> and no > experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from > clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 22:08:40 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:08:40 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> Message-ID: <40EAF7D2-9E6E-4501-8CBD-1FFBD817E03D@teleport.com> David: John Gault is the proprietor of Gault's Gulch, a roadside hamburger stand where you have to pay in gold. I was an Objectivist once, but I got better. ;^) WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:57 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the > People". > > We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of > Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for > health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or > energy policy? Or environmental policy? > > We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a > collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to > unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" > will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". > > In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what > Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get > reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are > better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot > muster a plurality of the votes. > > Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are > repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a > candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything > that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is > elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following > the "political wind". > > If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their > constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to > political advertising that runs counter to their long term > interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The > public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And > where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to > visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And > as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, > remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the > common public. > > So, what do the people really want? > > Who is John Gault anyway? > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean >> well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets >> pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually >> like them to be doing. >> >> The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:10:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:10:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972601214.13219311268287824493.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Improving lives of ordinary citizens, like enslaving them? Improving health care by making it impossible to afford? Creating jobs at $175,000 per job while losing millions of other jobs? Does it make a difference if a Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator has any color of hair at all, or is instead bald? What does color of anything have to do with it? What are you trying hard to say? don iM----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:59:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? OK, "radical" covers a lot of ground. Good and Bad. I like to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, and think he wants to make some radical improvements in the lives of ordinary Americans... i.e., reforming health care, bringing jobs home, winding up some stupid and disastrous projects of the previous administration, radically curbing the unholy power of gigantic financial institutions. In those departments at least, i can use all the radical he can dish out. If Obama was named Patrick Flynn O'Bama and had red hair and freckles, would he still be regarded as "radical?" WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:44 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > I will respond to this like a good 'left winger' > Are you attacking the messenger because you did not understand > what I was > implying and took it to mean something other than what I meant? > > I will also toss in a hint to what I mean, Obama is a radical. > 'Like' has several definitions. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:33:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? > Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on > Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at > all? > Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. > Not necessarily in that order. > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! >> You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what >> I can >> tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then >> twisted to >> meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. >> >> You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get >> confused >> and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his >> share of >> gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To >> find them, >> you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if >> you are >> interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most >> politicians have >> made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than >> their share >> (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) >> >> You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long >> time. >> >> By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. >> There are too many far better candidates available. >> >> Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? >> I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think >> she might >> be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with >> anything she >> does! LOL >> Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything >> she does? >> >> As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that >> one was >> that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the >> subject. Gee, >> should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and >> are unable to >> get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are >> called >> 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are >> breaking our >> laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from >> you, if >> you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that >> sometimes.) You >> are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans >> are supposed >> to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be >> the >> smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the >> Black, the >> Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true >> facts. They >> only voice it. >> >> By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the >> right to >> rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they >> are only >> trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with >> your >> double speak. >> >> I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like >> Obama. >> >> May God have mercy on your soul, >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> >> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >> gallantly >> (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly >> butchering >> facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due >> to her >> laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an >> astonishingly nasty dose >> of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to >> see how >> you'd react. Check mate! >> >> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >> you to >> defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. >> Palin >> with respect to her fact twistings. >> >> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >> many, >> many gaffes (see >> http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for >> starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little >> skew? >> At least I never said the following on Fox News: >> >> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >> light >> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >> we're >> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >> first >> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >> that >> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, >> 2008 >> >> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >> lighten >> up as Walt so wisely recommended. >> >> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >> takes >> for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No >> matter how >> long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a >> million >> years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska >> to form >> that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just >> drill baby >> drill. >> >> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >> their term >> as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks >> from the >> lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very >> principled to me. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >> and will >> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >> You are >> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >> >> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >> PARENTS >> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >> medicine, >> to >> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >> converted to >> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >> Canada's >> medical >> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >> regard to >> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >> 'lack of >> principles' than any other politician of today.} >> >> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >> '84; thus, >> I >> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >> boy does >> time fly.) >> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >> Alaska while >> >> an infant. >> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >> national >> >> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >> taken to >> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >> [This >> would >> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >> >> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >> not read >> any such thing. >> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything >> of the >> sort. If >> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >> direction her >> parents. >> >> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis >> that her >> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >> news >> material >> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >> implied. >> >> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >> converted >> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >> >> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being >> spun this >> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >> the more. >> The >> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >> they lack >> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >> but not >> to >> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >> context, >> then >> putting some goofy spin to it. >> >> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >> medicine >> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >> one time >> in >> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >> treatment of >> any >> kind.] >> >> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >> >> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is >> lacking any >> principle. >> >> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >> had to >> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. >> The media >> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >> another >> speech >> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >> would do >> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >> without regard >> to >> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >> back in >> their >> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your >> Obama also >> did >> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >> were >> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >> another >> level to >> the spin of lies. >> >> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as >> an adult! >> >> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >> article >> completely with comprehension without bias. >> >> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >> name >> for >> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >> >> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >> postings: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >> >> May God have mercy on your soul! >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT >> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >> change >> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >> women >> like >> that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >> socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking >> medical >> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >> socialized >> medicine. >> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >> DOESN'T >> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it >> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >> and >> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >> Canada >> only >> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >> factors, I >> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >> they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >> Whitehorse, >> Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >> making from >> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >> helicopter >> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >> the air >> during >> her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you >> have >> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >> party >> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >> treatments >> when you >> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >> person >> and >> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >> medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada >> or Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It >> would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >> and what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are >> a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >> accessible by >> ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >> BEFORE >> Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins >> of lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >> have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it >> is Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A >> bit like >> the >> >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>> lived in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor >> that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >> permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely >> that the >> nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >> about her >> life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >> up not >> far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>> good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >> having to >> travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something >> else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 22:13:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:13:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <1528586995.13217311268287339311.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1528586995.13217311268287339311.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <06F419C3-3501-47C4-9FF5-90546DA12FEF@teleport.com> On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think in a general way, in two lines: > > 1. keep it like it was before. Before a few companies created a giant Insurance Trust, you mean? > > 2. use the money instead to end corruption in the health care system. No argument there. With our fragmentary, ramshackle and largely unregulated system, we are just inviting swindles and corruption. But if we clean it up and regulate it, wouldn't that be... er, health care reform? ;^) > > Idealistic? > > Realistic? > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:57:46 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm > > I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the > People". > > We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of > Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for > health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or > energy policy? Or environmental policy? > > We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a > collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to > unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" > will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". > > In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what > Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get > reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are > better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot > muster a plurality of the votes. > > Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are > repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a > candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything > that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is > elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following > the "political wind". > > If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their > constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to > political advertising that runs counter to their long term > interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The > public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And > where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to > visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And > as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, > remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the > common public. > > So, what do the people really want? > > Who is John Gault anyway? > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean >> well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets >> pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually >> like them to be doing. >> >> The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 10 22:14:48 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:14:48 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Message-ID: <4bb23.2141bf12.38c9e458@aol.com> on more then I go to bed - old men need sleep too sometimes; been up since 4AM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4 if you want to see Obama at his 'best' Head to Youtube and search 'obama gaf' You will find many areas to pick from and each area has many of his 'wise statemetns.' g'night and God bless The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:52:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Had to dig this one up... just too funny! As it happened in Portland. How many states do we have ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:18:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:18:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <9A6B3FCB-0FE0-4E51-A1E0-867C5854EE13@teleport.com> Message-ID: <911539319.13221231268288335898.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What character? He has no history and has no character to impune, unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a positive character recognition immune to criticism on. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:05:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Nope, it wasn't. Can't have a debate when one side stonewalls, only a monologue. So, was that a lie, or only a an offer that could not be kept? Which is worse, to repeatedly request bipartisanship and be repeatedly rebuffed, or to finally give up, go it alone and then be denounced as a liar? Again, vague, sweeping accusations against a man's character, with nothing except opinion to back them up, just don't buy it. So am I blind, or just not hypersensitive and hypercritical? WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > Trying to make Obama look good would be a full time job. > > Where there is a pile of horse crap, there must be a pony in there > somewhere. > > How about this one? > > Health care bill will be discussed in the open and aired live by > CSPAN? > > Well WW, was it? > > And that not being a good enough lie, he told the same one six more > times. > > And the lies parade endlessly by, but only the blind can't see it. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamsm at aol.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:12:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to > compare him > to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look > good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:05:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl > Rove, Dick > Cheney? > > "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? > > Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. > Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. > > Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor > Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator > > Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years > Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years > > Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. > Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. > Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. > > Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their > Presidential > candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications >> and no > experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from > clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 22:24:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:24:12 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> Message-ID: <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > Had to dig this one up... just too funny! > As it happened in Portland. > > How many states do we have ? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ > > Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the seven after a long pause. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 22:24:12 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:24:12 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1634015920.13216051268286853431.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <1634015920.13216051268286853431.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <056101cac0e3$783c3000$68b49000$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Hint, how many muslim countries are there? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? The simplest answer is usually the correct answer. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:24:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:24:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <06F419C3-3501-47C4-9FF5-90546DA12FEF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <418185640.13222291268288681939.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No, it would be protecting a working system by catching and putting crooks in jail. In other words, upholding the law. Health care does not have to break America. Providing jobs do not have to cost $175,000 each. One must identify where the economies truly are. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:13:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think in a general way, in two lines: > > 1. keep it like it was before. Before a few companies created a giant Insurance Trust, you mean? > > 2. use the money instead to end corruption in the health care system. No argument there. With our fragmentary, ramshackle and largely unregulated system, we are just inviting swindles and corruption. But if we clean it up and regulate it, wouldn't that be... er, health care reform? ;^) > > Idealistic? > > Realistic? > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:57:46 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm > > I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the > People". > > We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of > Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for > health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or > energy policy? Or environmental policy? > > We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a > collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to > unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" > will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". > > In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what > Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get > reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are > better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot > muster a plurality of the votes. > > Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are > repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a > candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything > that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is > elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following > the "political wind". > > If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their > constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to > political advertising that runs counter to their long term > interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The > public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And > where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to > visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And > as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, > remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the > common public. > > So, what do the people really want? > > Who is John Gault anyway? > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean >> well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets >> pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually >> like them to be doing. >> >> The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 22:25:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:25:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <972601214.13219311268287824493.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <972601214.13219311268287824493.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <06F8138C-CD54-40D7-88C5-AEB41E920B4B@teleport.com> On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > Improving lives of ordinary citizens, like enslaving them? Ooookay, now we're getting somewhere. How exactly is the American public being "enslaved?" Be specific, please. Young people are enlisting in the military, because they have no other hope of affording higher education. Unemployed people are competing for the most menial and insecure jobs, because the unregulated banking industry trashed the economy. Is this the sort of slavery you speak of? > Improving health care by making it impossible to afford? You mean that working people can afford it NOW? > Creating jobs at $175,000 per job while losing millions of other jobs? And is Obama responsible for "losing" those millions of other jobs, or is that perhaps the doing of the giant corporations that inflate their bottom lines by chasing poverty labor around the world? > Does it make a difference if a Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator > has any color of hair at all, or is instead bald? OK, once more with the "Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator" routine. Proof, please! Or are you just parroting Limbaugh and Beck? > What does color of anything have to do with it? > > What are you trying hard to say? If Obama were not the "Other," the "Outsider," the intelligent and educated black man, would such inflammatory, unfounded--even hysterical-- accusations as "Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator" be so commonplace? WW > > don > > iM----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:59:36 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > OK, "radical" covers a lot of ground. Good and Bad. I like to give > Obama the benefit of the doubt, and think he wants to make some > radical improvements in the lives of ordinary Americans... i.e., > reforming health care, bringing jobs home, winding up some stupid and > disastrous projects of the previous administration, radically curbing > the unholy power of gigantic financial institutions. In those > departments at least, i can use all the radical he can dish out. > If Obama was named Patrick Flynn O'Bama and had red hair and > freckles, would he still be regarded as "radical?" > WW > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:44 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> I will respond to this like a good 'left winger' >> Are you attacking the messenger because you did not understand >> what I was >> implying and took it to mean something other than what I meant? >> >> I will also toss in a hint to what I mean, Obama is a radical. >> 'Like' has several definitions. >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:33:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? >> Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on >> Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at >> all? >> Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, >> please. >> Not necessarily in that order. >> WW >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! >>> You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what >>> I can >>> tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then >>> twisted to >>> meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. >>> >>> You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get >>> confused >>> and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his >>> share of >>> gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To >>> find them, >>> you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if >>> you are >>> interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most >>> politicians have >>> made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than >>> their share >>> (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) >>> >>> You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long >>> time. >>> >>> By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. >>> There are too many far better candidates available. >>> >>> Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? >>> I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think >>> she might >>> be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with >>> anything she >>> does! LOL >>> Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything >>> she does? >>> >>> As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that >>> one was >>> that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the >>> subject. Gee, >>> should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and >>> are unable to >>> get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are >>> called >>> 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are >>> breaking our >>> laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from >>> you, if >>> you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that >>> sometimes.) You >>> are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans >>> are supposed >>> to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be >>> the >>> smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the >>> Black, the >>> Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true >>> facts. They >>> only voice it. >>> >>> By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the >>> right to >>> rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they >>> are only >>> trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with >>> your >>> double speak. >>> >>> I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like >>> Obama. >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul, >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly >>> (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly >>> butchering >>> facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due >>> to her >>> laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an >>> astonishingly nasty dose >>> of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to >>> see how >>> you'd react. Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to >>> defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. >>> Palin >>> with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, >>> many gaffes (see >>> http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for >>> starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little >>> skew? >>> At least I never said the following on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, >>> 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten >>> up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes >>> for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No >>> matter how >>> long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a >>> million >>> years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska >>> to form >>> that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just >>> drill baby >>> drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term >>> as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks >>> from the >>> lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very >>> principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, >>> to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's >>> medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >>> '84; thus, >>> I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >>> boy does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This >>> would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything >>> of the >>> sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis >>> that her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news >>> material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being >>> spun this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. >>> The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not >>> to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, >>> then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time >>> in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of >>> any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with >>> the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is >>> lacking any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. >>> The media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another >>> speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >>> without regard >>> to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >>> back in >>> their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your >>> Obama also >>> did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >>> were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another >>> level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as >>> an adult! >>> >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name >>> for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard >>> Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women >>> like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >>> socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking >>> medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >>> socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada >>> only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >>> making from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very >>> same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves >>> from >>> the air >>> during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you >>> have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments >>> when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person >>> and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada >>> or Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are >>> a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE >>> Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada >>> went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins >>> of lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >>> have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it >>> is Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A >>> bit like >>> the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >>> permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely >>> that the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take >>>> her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something >>> else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 10 22:28:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:28:43 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4bb23.2141bf12.38c9e458@aol.com> References: <4bb23.2141bf12.38c9e458@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC6D369-70E0-45C7-8BBE-29A1929B3F22@teleport.com> On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > on more then I go to bed - old men need sleep too sometimes; been > up since > 4AM. Hopefully you have NOT been on the monitor all that time! You'll fry your eyeballs at that rate. But it is late, and debate in the group is getting too rancorous. Time to hit the sack myself. I'll dig into the UTube stuff tomorrow. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Cg_FDRy4 > > if you want to see Obama at his 'best' > Head to Youtube and search 'obama gaf' > You will find many areas to pick from and each area has many of > his 'wise > statemetns.' > > g'night and God bless > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:52:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Jamsm at aol.com writes: > Had to dig this one up... just too funny! > As it happened in Portland. > > How many states do we have ? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ > > Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! > > The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:29:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:29:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <06F8138C-CD54-40D7-88C5-AEB41E920B4B@teleport.com> Message-ID: <941147355.13222981268288950049.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I'm sure it would. By their deeds thou shalt know them. Who is Limbaugh and Beck? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:25:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:10 PM, donkelly wrote: > Improving lives of ordinary citizens, like enslaving them? Ooookay, now we're getting somewhere. How exactly is the American public being "enslaved?" Be specific, please. Young people are enlisting in the military, because they have no other hope of affording higher education. Unemployed people are competing for the most menial and insecure jobs, because the unregulated banking industry trashed the economy. Is this the sort of slavery you speak of? > Improving health care by making it impossible to afford? You mean that working people can afford it NOW? > Creating jobs at $175,000 per job while losing millions of other jobs? And is Obama responsible for "losing" those millions of other jobs, or is that perhaps the doing of the giant corporations that inflate their bottom lines by chasing poverty labor around the world? > Does it make a difference if a Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator > has any color of hair at all, or is instead bald? OK, once more with the "Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator" routine. Proof, please! Or are you just parroting Limbaugh and Beck? > What does color of anything have to do with it? > > What are you trying hard to say? If Obama were not the "Other," the "Outsider," the intelligent and educated black man, would such inflammatory, unfounded--even hysterical-- accusations as "Socialist Communist Muslim Dictator" be so commonplace? WW > > don > > iM----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:59:36 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > OK, "radical" covers a lot of ground. Good and Bad. I like to give > Obama the benefit of the doubt, and think he wants to make some > radical improvements in the lives of ordinary Americans... i.e., > reforming health care, bringing jobs home, winding up some stupid and > disastrous projects of the previous administration, radically curbing > the unholy power of gigantic financial institutions. In those > departments at least, i can use all the radical he can dish out. > If Obama was named Patrick Flynn O'Bama and had red hair and > freckles, would he still be regarded as "radical?" > WW > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:44 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> I will respond to this like a good 'left winger' >> Are you attacking the messenger because you did not understand >> what I was >> implying and took it to mean something other than what I meant? >> >> I will also toss in a hint to what I mean, Obama is a radical. >> 'Like' has several definitions. >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/11/2010 12:33:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> waltw at teleport.com writes: >> >> OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? >> Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on >> Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at >> all? >> Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, >> please. >> Not necessarily in that order. >> WW >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! >>> You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what >>> I can >>> tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then >>> twisted to >>> meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. >>> >>> You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get >>> confused >>> and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his >>> share of >>> gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To >>> find them, >>> you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if >>> you are >>> interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most >>> politicians have >>> made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than >>> their share >>> (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) >>> >>> You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long >>> time. >>> >>> By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. >>> There are too many far better candidates available. >>> >>> Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? >>> I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think >>> she might >>> be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with >>> anything she >>> does! LOL >>> Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything >>> she does? >>> >>> As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that >>> one was >>> that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the >>> subject. Gee, >>> should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and >>> are unable to >>> get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are >>> called >>> 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are >>> breaking our >>> laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from >>> you, if >>> you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that >>> sometimes.) You >>> are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans >>> are supposed >>> to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be >>> the >>> smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the >>> Black, the >>> Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true >>> facts. They >>> only voice it. >>> >>> By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the >>> right to >>> rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they >>> are only >>> trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with >>> your >>> double speak. >>> >>> I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like >>> Obama. >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul, >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly >>> (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly >>> butchering >>> facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due >>> to her >>> laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an >>> astonishingly nasty dose >>> of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to >>> see how >>> you'd react. Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to >>> defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. >>> Palin >>> with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, >>> many gaffes (see >>> http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for >>> starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little >>> skew? >>> At least I never said the following on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, >>> 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten >>> up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes >>> for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No >>> matter how >>> long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a >>> million >>> years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska >>> to form >>> that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just >>> drill baby >>> drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term >>> as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks >>> from the >>> lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very >>> principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, >>> to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's >>> medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >>> '84; thus, >>> I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >>> boy does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This >>> would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything >>> of the >>> sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis >>> that her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news >>> material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being >>> spun this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. >>> The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not >>> to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, >>> then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time >>> in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of >>> any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with >>> the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is >>> lacking any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. >>> The media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another >>> speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >>> without regard >>> to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >>> back in >>> their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your >>> Obama also >>> did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >>> were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another >>> level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as >>> an adult! >>> >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name >>> for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard >>> Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women >>> like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >>> socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking >>> medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >>> socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada >>> only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >>> making from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very >>> same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves >>> from >>> the air >>> during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you >>> have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments >>> when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person >>> and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada >>> or Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are >>> a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE >>> Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada >>> went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins >>> of lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >>> have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it >>> is Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A >>> bit like >>> the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >>> permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely >>> that the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take >>>> her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something >>> else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Mar 10 22:32:28 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:32:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <911539319.13221231268288335898.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <9A6B3FCB-0FE0-4E51-A1E0-867C5854EE13@teleport.com> <911539319.13221231268288335898.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <057c01cac0e4$9f3afc80$ddb0f580$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > What character? He has no history and has no character to impune, > unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a > positive character recognition immune to criticism on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Seriously, enough with the "muslim" and "socialis[t|m]" stuff already. It doesn't add anything to the conversation, doesn't get anybody any closer to understanding where you're coming from, and doesn't even begin to actually describe the individual you continue to try to vilify. We all get you don't like him. We all get you've bought into some of the campaign trail nonsense. We also all get that you think the things you believe are the real deal and that we're all nuts for not agreeing with you. So, knowing all that, what do you hope to gain by keeping on with it? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 22:42:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:42:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <057c01cac0e4$9f3afc80$ddb0f580$@com> Message-ID: <2117164411.13224961268289752464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Ideally, a meeting of the minds would seem a good result. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > What character? He has no history and has no character to impune, > unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a > positive character recognition immune to criticism on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Seriously, enough with the "muslim" and "socialis[t|m]" stuff already. It doesn't add anything to the conversation, doesn't get anybody any closer to understanding where you're coming from, and doesn't even begin to actually describe the individual you continue to try to vilify. We all get you don't like him. We all get you've bought into some of the campaign trail nonsense. We also all get that you think the things you believe are the real deal and that we're all nuts for not agreeing with you. So, knowing all that, what do you hope to gain by keeping on with it? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 22:44:30 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:44:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: References: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> Message-ID: <446911.63800.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Whew! Thanks for the clarification, Walt! For a minute there, I started to think that ALL that rabidly venomous name calling of G's might be directed at me rather than just most of it! Really, Walt, I'm trying my very best to take your advise and help G to lighten up a bit. But it just isn't working! But, at least I have the satisfaction of squeezing a few LOLs out of him...even if they were inspired by unabashed errors, misconceptions, and prejudices on his part. But, I'm happy to take whatever small victories I can squeeze out of him in the name of enlightenment! Psst! If you see G, Walt, would you please tell him that it's not Sarah Palin that I'm afraid of. After watching Dubya get elected not once but TWICE, I'm afraid that similarly ill-fated circumstances could someday send the majority of the American people into yet another de-evolutionary spiral that would result in Sarah's now-unthinkable election as First-Ditz President of the United States. (Kinda like the Roseanne Barr factor only slightly more physically attractive and a lot less funny.) And I'm really, really afraid of what would happen after Sarah's election with respect the future of our planet and all who inhabit her. But, since you mentioned Sarah's likely resignation shortly after her election, Walt, I've been giving that possibility a lot of serious thought. Maybe we "Leftist, Marxist Commie" supporters really outa consider campaigning for the Sarah in the next election. Just think about it: Once she gets elected and then subsequently resigns, that oughta pretty much put an end to her entire party for good. Evolution....ya gotta love it! Holly ________________________________ From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 9:33:31 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at all? Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. Not necessarily in that order. WW On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! > You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what > I can > tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then > twisted to > meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. > > You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get > confused > and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his share of > gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To > find them, > you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if > you are > interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most > politicians have > made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than > their share > (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) > > You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long > time. > > By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. > There are too many far better candidates available. > > Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? > I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think > she might > be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with > anything she > does! LOL > Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything > she does? > > As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that > one was > that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the > subject. Gee, > should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and > are unable to > get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are called > 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are > breaking our > laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from > you, if > you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that > sometimes.) You > are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans > are supposed > to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be > the > smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the > Black, the > Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true > facts. They > only voice it. > > By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the > right to > rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they > are only > trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with > your > double speak. > > I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like > Obama. > > May God have mercy on your soul, > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > > Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so > gallantly > (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly > butchering > facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her > laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an > astonishingly nasty dose > of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to > see how > you'd react. Check mate! > > Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for > you to > defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. > Palin > with respect to her fact twistings. > > I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her > many, > many gaffes (see > http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for > starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? > At least I never said the following on Fox News: > > "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the > light > there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're > confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the > first > 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this > economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies > that > we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, > suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 > > I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to > lighten > up as Walt so wisely recommended. > > And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it > takes > for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No > matter how > long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a > million > years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska > to form > that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just > drill baby > drill. > > Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish > their term > as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the > lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very > principled to me. > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read > and will > interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! > You are > extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! > > Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER > PARENTS > took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized > medicine, > to > Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada > converted to > socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's > medical > system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with > regard to > socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less > 'lack of > principles' than any other politician of today.} > > Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed > '84; thus, > I > was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - > boy does > time fly.) > Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to > Alaska while > > an infant. > This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their > national > > health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been > taken to > Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years > [This > would > be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. > > Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have > not read > any such thing. > Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to > socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything > of the > sort. If > she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the > direction her > parents. > > But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her > statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news > material > and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news > implied. > > Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada > converted > to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? > > I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being > spun this > outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all > the more. > The > Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; > they lack > any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, > but not > to > the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of > context, > then > putting some goofy spin to it. > > I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized > medicine > just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada > one time > in > the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical > treatment of > any > kind.] > > Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the > audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. > > YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any > principle. > > If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton > had to > say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. > The media > would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with > another > speech > to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do > and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience > without regard > to > any principles. The main stream news would show this back to > back in > their > news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your > Obama also > did > the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were > catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet > another > level to > the spin of lies. > > Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as > an adult! > > But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the > article > completely with comprehension without bias. > > You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a > name > for > a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! > > Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your > postings: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 > > May God have mercy on your soul! > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: > I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's > CONSISTENT > alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to > change > based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for > women > like > that and it's not a pretty one. > > One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized > medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED > seeking > medical > care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized > medicine. > Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN > DOESN'T > HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! > > Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system > before it > became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer > and > wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if > Canada > only > adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These > factors, I > suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would > they? > > As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, > Canada goes, I ask you this: > > Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's > making from > Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire > helicopter > pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same > helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from > the air > during > her hunting expeditions! > > Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when > you > have > publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party > leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical > treatments > when you > live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED > person > and > have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized > medicine. > > Holly > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Jamsm at aol.com" > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada > or Juneau > AK are where her parents went took their children to see > doctors. It > would > be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year > and what > you need to see a doctor for. > > It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and > Skagway are > a > short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by > ferry. > Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. > > Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE > Canada > went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to > socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? > > The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins > of lies. > Check your facts. > > Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a > 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in > Hillsboro? > > The Grouch > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jo.david at verizon.net writes: > > The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is > before > her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it > is Juneau. > http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html > > As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A > bit like > the > > "internet" statement, heh? > > David > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Raises questions like >> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >> lived in. > Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a > Doctor > that > drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the > closest > Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the > nearest > large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to > Canada. >> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >> the U.S. > steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit > about her > life > growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing > up not > far > from Whitehorse, not her kids. >> >> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >> good > sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses > having to > travel > larger distances to a major American facility. >> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something > else. >> >> The Grouch > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 22:53:14 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:53:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <1528586995.13217311268287339311.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1528586995.13217311268287339311.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <89D3BE01-2841-4B1B-A8C0-3C471F8E034E@verizon.net> 1 and 2 are in conflict with each other. If we are to remove the corruption, the system will need to change. The problem with "corruption" comes in defining the line between "smart business practices" and "unethical practices". One person's profit is another person's fraud. Also, remember, the health system was corrected during the Bush Administration, and that included outlawing Canadian medicine, and requiring that Medicare NOT use it's purchasing power to lower drug costs. I saw that as "corruption". A better system does exist. Likely several different better systems exist. We cannot go back to family doctors who get paid with chickens. Too many people believe that they need Viagra. BTW, is Viagra's advertising campaign "corruption"? It is not an easy solution. For that reason we need to be reasonable as we discuss the alternatives. Otherwise people get angry and we are left with #1. Which means we don't get any part of #2. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think in a general way, in two lines: > > 1. keep it like it was before. > > 2. use the money instead to end corruption in the health care system. > > Idealistic? > > Realistic? > > don From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 22:55:01 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:55:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <2117164411.13224961268289752464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2117164411.13224961268289752464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <694309.93501.qm@web56105.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Sounds quite reasonable to me, Don. Not to mention noble. Thanks for the wise words. And special thanks to Jeff for inspiring such reason and nobility. Not only in your comments to Don, but in your comments to others as well. And with that, I bid you all good night! Holly ________________________________ From: donkelly To: jeff at jeffhowden.com Cc: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 10:42:32 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Ideally, a meeting of the minds would seem a good result. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:32:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > What character? He has no history and has no character to impune, > unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a > positive character recognition immune to criticism on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Seriously, enough with the "muslim" and "socialis[t|m]" stuff already. It doesn't add anything to the conversation, doesn't get anybody any closer to understanding where you're coming from, and doesn't even begin to actually describe the individual you continue to try to vilify. We all get you don't like him. We all get you've bought into some of the campaign trail nonsense. We also all get that you think the things you believe are the real deal and that we're all nuts for not agreeing with you. So, knowing all that, what do you hope to gain by keeping on with it? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 23:05:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:05:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <89D3BE01-2841-4B1B-A8C0-3C471F8E034E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1834184370.13226911268291109019.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Rationally, YES. Calculating costs based on known fraud, keeping in mind all fraud has not yet been identified, it seems cheaper to catch, try and jail the crimbsters than to continue to lose millions to them monthly. It would save medicar and medical money, and money for insurance companies who carry our employment insurance. With a net gain in funding there would be no need to spend quadrillion dollers no one could afford to pay. Even those citizens who cannot afford insurance, and don't have medicare or medicaid yet, could be covered free. But it cannot work if it covers 30 million illegals who pay nothing in, yet in debatable total losses. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:53:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm 1 and 2 are in conflict with each other. If we are to remove the corruption, the system will need to change. The problem with "corruption" comes in defining the line between "smart business practices" and "unethical practices". One person's profit is another person's fraud. Also, remember, the health system was corrected during the Bush Administration, and that included outlawing Canadian medicine, and requiring that Medicare NOT use it's purchasing power to lower drug costs. I saw that as "corruption". A better system does exist. Likely several different better systems exist. We cannot go back to family doctors who get paid with chickens. Too many people believe that they need Viagra. BTW, is Viagra's advertising campaign "corruption"? It is not an easy solution. For that reason we need to be reasonable as we discuss the alternatives. Otherwise people get angry and we are left with #1. Which means we don't get any part of #2. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think in a general way, in two lines: > > 1. keep it like it was before. > > 2. use the money instead to end corruption in the health care system. > > Idealistic? > > Realistic? > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 23:05:56 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:05:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <2117164411.13224961268289752464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2117164411.13224961268289752464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2A9EF083-378D-48A2-9F31-F597ED1C7250@verizon.net> What Muslim Socialist are we talking about here? Our President is a Christian Democrat. His policies do not match those of a Banana Republic Oligarch. That doesn't make him a Socialist. They are consistent with the New Deal Democrat policies of six decades ago, which were a compromise between Fascist and Communist extremism. When we consider that Russia marched off to a Communist dictatorship while Spain marched off to a Fascist dictatorship, the ability to preserve democracy in the United States was a good thing. We even came out of the war in good economic shape. The workers were not enslaved, nor were the factories nationalized. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > Ideally, a meeting of the minds would seem a good result. > > don > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> What character? He has no history and has no character to impugn, >> unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a >> positive character recognition immune to criticism on. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 10 23:29:21 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:29:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <1834184370.13226911268291109019.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1834184370.13226911268291109019.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: When the doctor's office schedules unnecessary tests, because they own the lab that does the test, is that fraud? I think so, but it is a bit difficult to legislate. When the insurance company denies a claim based upon "pre-existing condition", and the patient has to fight them to get the coverage that they are due, is that fraud? BTW, some insurance companies start with denial and let the burden of proof fall on the patients. When the insurance company dictates billable amounts below actual expenses, is that fraud? When a doctor spend more on staff to file and process claims to meet multiple different standards for different policies from the same company, than they would if it was a single standard for coverage, is that wrong? It is expensive. When the insurance contract requires that the doctor charge more for cash patients, is that fraud? When a person gives birth to a baby with defects and that person is later denied health coverage as a "pre-existing condition", is that fraud? Their parent's made a choice to let them be born, should anyone else pay the cost for them? When a patent exists for a medicine, and it is not profitable for the owner to produce it, should the patent become public domain? There are more questions in this issue than just petty crooks. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:05 PM, donkelly wrote: > Rationally, YES. > > Calculating costs based on known fraud, keeping in mind all fraud has not yet been identified, it seems cheaper to catch, try and jail the crimbsters than to continue to lose millions to them monthly. > > It would save medicar and medical money, and money for insurance companies who carry our employment insurance. > > With a net gain in funding there would be no need to spend quadrillion dollers no one could afford to pay. Even those citizens who cannot afford insurance, and don't have medicare or medicaid yet, could be covered free. > > But it cannot work if it covers 30 million illegals who pay nothing in, yet in debatable total losses. > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 23:42:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <2A9EF083-378D-48A2-9F31-F597ED1C7250@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1500512507.13230301268293374558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well David, try this one: A muslim/socialist advocate by personal admission in his book; by early school (medrassa) training; by advocating and supporting socialist programs; by supporting muslim concepts; by failure to call terrorists what they are; by friends that he associates with, and by appointing socialist/even communist, CZARS, he has surrounded himself with. Ye shall know them by their associations and by their deeds. Now how do we make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? That is the challenge. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:05:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? What Muslim Socialist are we talking about here? Our President is a Christian Democrat. His policies do not match those of a Banana Republic Oligarch. That doesn't make him a Socialist. They are consistent with the New Deal Democrat policies of six decades ago, which were a compromise between Fascist and Communist extremism. When we consider that Russia marched off to a Communist dictatorship while Spain marched off to a Fascist dictatorship, the ability to preserve democracy in the United States was a good thing. We even came out of the war in good economic shape. The workers were not enslaved, nor were the factories nationalized. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > Ideally, a meeting of the minds would seem a good result. > > don > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> What character? He has no history and has no character to impugn, >> unless you think being a Muslim Socialist is something to build a >> positive character recognition immune to criticism on. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 10 23:55:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:55:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <725F36F4-6D7C-4FE2-B9AF-2252F50227D6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1625402401.13231311268294112186.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Who is this Palin you keep talking about? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:05:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 00:22:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:22:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <201003102048.04871.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <457556661.13232281268295723047.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Yes, good for the messinger. And when someone hides records of their background, that proves they have something to hide. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Meredith Bliss To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:48:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm Not sure that I saw anything here claiming that Leahy was a saint. Typical of people who can't argue the issue is to attack the messenger. That speaks volumes about those who attack the messenger, and makes me think maybe the message is worth listening to. On Wednesday 10 March 2010 01:58:15 pm Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Just another opinion about Leahy - to keep the opinions equalized. > Appears Leahy is not a saint either. If I dig deeper I am sure I can find > more blusterous actions by this guy. > Looks like he yelps about things that may not go the way that will benefit > him and his colleagues. > > Looks like he is another of the long time politicians that needs to "Go." > > _http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story_ > (http://spectator.org/archives/2009/06/16/pat-leahys-fish-story) > > The Grouch > > > > > In a message dated 3/10/2010 4:27:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > Here's one man who seems to be aware of the implications... > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Patrick Leahy" > > Date: March 10, 2010 8:58:24 PM PST > > To: "Walt Wentz" > > Subject: Undoing the harm > > Reply-To: notice-reply-37d3xww49jeexdtb at ga3.org > > > > > > Dear Walt, > > > > Today we begin the process of undoing the great harm done by a > > narrow majority on the U.S. Supreme Court in its recent Citizens > > United v. FEC decision. I just returned from our first Senate > > Judiciary Committee hearing focused specifically on how, in light > > of the Court's misguided decision, we can protect our political > > process from excessive corporate spending. > > > > The Founding Fathers crafted a Constitution and adopted a Bill of > > Rights to guarantee the fundamental rights of the American people, > > not corporations. After all, corporations are different from > > individual citizens. They do not have the same rights, morals, or > > motivations. They cannot vote. They are legal constructs designed > > to conduct commerce, nothing more. > > > > The differences between people and corporations are obvious, and > > they were not lost on the great Chief Justice John Marshall when he > > wrote in 1819 that, "A corporation is an artificial being ... the > > mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the > > charter of its creation confers upon it..." > > > > When the conservative activist majority on the Supreme Court ruled > > that corporations have the same rights as individual citizens to > > spend as much as they like to influence the political process, they > > ran roughshod over longstanding precedent and effectively redrafted > > our well-established campaign finance laws. > > > > At the core of the First Amendment is the right of individual > > citizens to speak and to be heard in the political process. But if > > the Supreme Court's recent decision goes unchecked, it would not > > take much corporate money, relatively speaking, to outspend every > > candidate for every political party at every level of American > > government. > > > > When the Citizens United decision was handed down, I said that it > > was the most partisan decision since Bush v. Gore. As in Bush v. > > Gore, the conservative activists on the Supreme Court unnecessarily > > went beyond the proper judicial role to substitute their > > preferences for the law. But Citizens United is broader and more > > damaging, because rather than intervening to decide a single > > election, the Court intervened to affect all future elections. > > > > In the coming weeks and months I will call on you to help enact > > specific legislation aimed at restoring our democratic process in > > the wake of the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision. Until > > then, please forward this email to your friends and family to > > continue building awareness about the grave implications of this > > wrongly decided case and the importance of closing the floodgates > > of corporate spending in American elections. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Patrick Leahy > > U.S. Senator > > > > P.S. Please encourage your friends and family to join our community > > by following the link below -- and I'll make sure they too know > > about specific advocacy opportunities in the near future, aimed at > > undoing the harm posed by the Supreme Court's Citizens Uniteddecision: > > > > http://www.LeahyForVermont.com/Join > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paid for by Leahy for U.S. Senator Committee, Inc. > > PO Box 1042 > > Montpelier, VT 05601 > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent to waltw at teleport.com. Visit your > > subscription management page to modify your email communication > > preferences or update your personal profile. To stop ALL email from > > Leahy for Senate, click to remove yourself from our lists (or reply > > via email with "remove or unsubscribe" in the subject line). > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -- ---------------------------------------- Just happy to be here, but speaking only for myself! Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 00:32:42 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:32:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1500512507.13230301268293374558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1500512507.13230301268293374558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5C158067-4A23-4852-9ED7-7564DB0EA660@verizon.net> By the name "Don Kelly" we shall know that you are a mafia leader of Irish ancestry who is under the control of the Roman Catholic Pope. And you would be a drunkard, because all Irish are alcoholics. Except, that you are not. At least we have no reason to infer that from what little we know of you. Obama carries his father's name. He was raised by his mother in the house of her husbands, or in the home of his grandparents. He even went to school as a child. We can agree on that. Quite possibly his mother was a "flake". She may have raised him with training in Muslim theology, or not, I don't know. In America, he found Jesus. If you have read the judgment of the sheep and goats, the giving of coats, and the Sermon on the Mount, then you should see that Jesus and his followers were radicals. The economic practices of the early Jerusalem church was communist, and the call to send money to the poor was socialist as well. Those ideas are not particularly Muslim, although the alms to the poor, widows and orphans is ingrained in Islam as well as Christianity. Appointing socialist czars? Most of them were holdovers from the very "socialist" Bush administration. Except, they are capitalists. Even the word "czar" is from pre-Communist Russia. Real Communists would not tolerate a Czar, they shot them. "Ye shall know them by their associations and by their deeds" He hangs around with generals, admirals, and increased our fighting forces in Afghanistan, what, does that make him a soldier? He hangs around with legislators and governors. He hangs around with foreign heads of state. He hangs around with his wife and daughters. In the course of posting to Grovenet, you are in association with Bob Browning, Walt W, Katie, Holly and me. Does that association make you into something other than what you are? I may wish to change you, but it isn't going to happen. Has Obama failed to call terrorists for what they are? Sure. He hasn't said anything to the Israeli government for the people they sent to kill Hamas leaders. Should he? He has sent a message to Osama bin Laden, and had it carried by 17,000 additional soldiers and predator drones. Pakistan is more active against Al-Quaeda now than they were in the last years of the Bush Administration. What are you requesting? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, try this one: > > A muslim/socialist advocate by personal admission in his book; by early school (medrassa) training; by advocating and supporting socialist programs; by supporting muslim concepts; by failure to call terrorists what they are; by friends that he associates with, and by appointing socialist/even communist, CZARS, he has surrounded himself with. > > Ye shall know them by their associations and by their deeds. > > Now how do we make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? That is the challenge. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 00:44:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:44:39 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1625402401.13231311268294112186.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1625402401.13231311268294112186.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <95242E81-728C-4606-93A3-B61B9970AD46@verizon.net> The current Republican front runner for 2012. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:55 PM, donkelly wrote: > Who is this Palin you keep talking about? > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 01:32:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:32:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Think you know me? In-Reply-To: <5C158067-4A23-4852-9ED7-7564DB0EA660@verizon.net> Message-ID: <415991377.13234791268299963132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well David, you got part of me, but not all of me. I am a 76 year old veteran who still works full time. I am Irish, Scot, Welsh, English, Swedish and Indian. I can't drink because alcohol is poison to me. I don't go to church every week, but I am a protestant (any church will do)and I do pray everyday. I am a life long democrat, but not proud of republicans enough to switch. My choice of party affiliation would be a conservative constitutionalist if there was a party like that. I like honest people who lay it on the line, people who say what they will do, and do what they say. They will not jump the fence just because the grass looks better on the other side. They WILL try to improve on what they have. In general I pretty much dislike all professional politicians......too many lawyers in their ranks to suit me, and too few who really go to congress to represent the people they serve. For fun I maintain 30 or so internet websites and admin over 30 mailing lists and message boards. These are mostly history and genealogy related. I also read a lot of books including the quoran, and I have written stories for kids a lot. When I wasn't working, I attended several universities for about twelve years......almost a professional student. The only clubs I ever belonged to was the Boy Scouts, Jr Chamber of Commerce, and The Mensa Society, where meetings were quite boring. I was once a champion pool player (2nd in Alaska), but eyes put an end to that. Though I am smart, I never learned to spell, Psychiatrists say that fault is not all that unusual. And as bad as I am at writing, I still enjoy doing it. Militarily, National Guard, Army Reserves, or active duty, served from 1950 to 1972. Spending most of my time with the 2nd Ranger Bn, Fort Lewis, WA and Fort Richardson, AK, I emerged as a helicopter pilot with other skills. Moved to Alaska where I flew government people around the arctic; worked for the oil companies as an electrician and later master electrician (thirteen technical certifications). Retired and moved to Cornelius and worked seven years for Intel, building, testing, debugging and configuring servers. Since 2003 my work is specialist or electrical pro at Lowes Hillsboro. Anything you want to know, just ask. I research things that don't sound right, and do a pretty fair job of sorting facts from hype, or hysteria. Have a good evening- - -OOPS, morning don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:32:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? By the name "Don Kelly" we shall know that you are a mafia leader of Irish ancestry who is under the control of the Roman Catholic Pope. And you would be a drunkard, because all Irish are alcoholics. Except, that you are not. At least we have no reason to infer that from what little we know of you. Obama carries his father's name. He was raised by his mother in the house of her husbands, or in the home of his grandparents. He even went to school as a child. We can agree on that. Quite possibly his mother was a "flake". She may have raised him with training in Muslim theology, or not, I don't know. In America, he found Jesus. If you have read the judgment of the sheep and goats, the giving of coats, and the Sermon on the Mount, then you should see that Jesus and his followers were radicals. The economic practices of the early Jerusalem church was communist, and the call to send money to the poor was socialist as well. Those ideas are not particularly Muslim, although the alms to the poor, widows and orphans is ingrained in Islam as well as Christianity. Appointing socialist czars? Most of them were holdovers from the very "socialist" Bush administration. Except, they are capitalists. Even the word "czar" is from pre-Communist Russia. Real Communists would not tolerate a Czar, they shot them. "Ye shall know them by their associations and by their deeds" He hangs around with generals, admirals, and increased our fighting forces in Afghanistan, what, does that make him a soldier? He hangs around with legislators and governors. He hangs around with foreign heads of state. He hangs around with his wife and daughters. In the course of posting to Grovenet, you are in association with Bob Browning, Walt W, Katie, Holly and me. Does that association make you into something other than what you are? I may wish to change you, but it isn't going to happen. Has Obama failed to call terrorists for what they are? Sure. He hasn't said anything to the Israeli government for the people they sent to kill Hamas leaders. Should he? He has sent a message to Osama bin Laden, and had it carried by 17,000 additional soldiers and predator drones. Pakistan is more active against Al-Quaeda now than they were in the last years of the Bush Administration. What are you requesting? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:42 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, try this one: > > A muslim/socialist advocate by personal admission in his book; by early school (medrassa) training; by advocating and supporting socialist programs; by supporting muslim concepts; by failure to call terrorists what they are; by friends that he associates with, and by appointing socialist/even communist, CZARS, he has surrounded himself with. > > Ye shall know them by their associations and by their deeds. > > Now how do we make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? That is the challenge. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 01:46:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:46:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <95242E81-728C-4606-93A3-B61B9970AD46@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49852889.13235171268300777879.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I don't think so, but haven't seen any supporting polls. She's from Alaska as I am and people up there say she did a great job. I don't see her as presidential material, but I could be wrong. She could not be worse than what we have now. She knows how to balance a budget, and that is a plus. We'll find out in due time. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? The current Republican front runner for 2012. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:55 PM, donkelly wrote: > Who is this Palin you keep talking about? > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 06:30:37 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:30:37 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <40EAF7D2-9E6E-4501-8CBD-1FFBD817E03D@teleport.com> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> <40EAF7D2-9E6E-4501-8CBD-1FFBD817E03D@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B98FE8D.6020008@gmail.com> 1.John Galt 2. Hugh Akston ran the roadside diner 3. The cigarettes that Dagny Taggart tried to buy could only be bought with gold. Walt Wentz wrote: > David: > John Gault is the proprietor of Gault's Gulch, a roadside hamburger > stand where you have to pay in gold. > I was an Objectivist once, but I got better. ;^) > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:57 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > >> I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the >> People". >> >> We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of >> Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for >> health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or >> energy policy? Or environmental policy? >> >> We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a >> collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to >> unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" >> will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". >> >> In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what >> Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get >> reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are >> better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot >> muster a plurality of the votes. >> >> Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are >> repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a >> candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything >> that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is >> elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following >> the "political wind". >> >> If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their >> constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to >> political advertising that runs counter to their long term >> interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The >> public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And >> where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to >> visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And >> as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, >> remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the >> common public. >> >> So, what do the people really want? >> >> Who is John Gault anyway? >> David >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> ... >>> I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean >>> well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets >>> pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually >>> like them to be doing. >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 06:40:44 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:40:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> Message-ID: <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> And another. Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his inaugural speech: "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? Adam Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Jamsm at aol.com >> >> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >> As it happened in Portland. >> >> How many states do we have ? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >> >> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >> > > Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said > boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video > that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the > number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the > seven after a long pause. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 06:57:07 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:57:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: References: <1834184370.13226911268291109019.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <001201cac12b$1f4d6200$5de82600$@net> > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:29 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm > > When the doctor's office schedules unnecessary tests, because they own > the lab that does the test, is that fraud? I think so, but it is a bit > difficult to legislate. [I say:] This is currently a crime. The largest welfare fraud was a California doctor's group doing just this. > When the insurance company denies a claim based upon "pre-existing > condition", and the patient has to fight them to get the coverage that > they are due, is that fraud? BTW, some insurance companies start with > denial and let the burden of proof fall on the patients. [I say:] The ability to shop for new insurance would sure help. Don't get it tied to employment. > When the insurance company dictates billable amounts below actual > expenses, is that fraud? > [I say:] No, just bad business practices. > When a doctor spend more on staff to file and process claims to meet > multiple different standards for different policies from the same > company, than they would if it was a single standard for coverage, is > that wrong? It is expensive. [I say:] Is this a question or a statement. You answered it yourself. > > When the insurance contract requires that the doctor charge more for > cash patients, is that fraud? > [I say:] Sounds bad. Never heard of this practice. Usually doctors will take a discount for cash. > When a person gives birth to a baby with defects and that person is > later denied health coverage as a "pre-existing condition", is that > fraud? Their parent's made a choice to let them be born, should anyone > else pay the cost for them? [I say:] What cost is too great to care for them? No time for the rest. Thanks. > > When a patent exists for a medicine, and it is not profitable for the > owner to produce it, should the patent become public domain? > > There are more questions in this issue than just petty crooks. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:05 PM, donkelly wrote: > > > Rationally, YES. > > > > Calculating costs based on known fraud, keeping in mind all fraud has > not yet been identified, it seems cheaper to catch, try and jail the > crimbsters than to continue to lose millions to them monthly. > > > > It would save medicar and medical money, and money for insurance > companies who carry our employment insurance. > > > > With a net gain in funding there would be no need to spend > quadrillion dollers no one could afford to pay. Even those citizens who > cannot afford insurance, and don't have medicare or medicaid yet, could > be covered free. > > > > But it cannot work if it covers 30 million illegals who pay nothing > in, yet in debatable total losses. > > > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 07:42:46 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:42:46 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <446911.63800.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> <446911.63800.qm@web56107.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9CEEA19D-E32A-4AF0-8E36-190AA3F74857@teleport.com> Holly: If Palin were (unthinkably) to become First Ditz, I am confident that she would crack under the load and try to retire, just as she has from the state government jobs she was elected to. BUT-- and that's a big but-- that's the biggest but you'll ever see-- would she be permitted to flee from responsibility again? Palin herself would not be the main peril to our liberties and national prosperity, just as Dubya was not the real threat. The danger would be in her patrons and her handlers. Another Rove, another Cheney, another tight cabal of neo-con opportunists directing our Airhead of State like a puppet on strings, and it would be time to abandon the American Dream and emigrate to Lithuania or Tannu Touva-- if any other country would still accept former Americans by that time, or would instead shun us all as dangerous proto-fascists and lunatics who had destroyed their own country, and might destroy theirs too. But I'm afraid I don't have any time to play today, as I wasted precious hours last night debating the True Believers-- an exercise in futility-- and I do have Garden work to catch up on. It'll be a busy day. Walt On Mar 10, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Holly T. wrote: > Whew! Thanks for the clarification, Walt! > > For a minute there, I started to think that ALL that rabidly > venomous name calling of G's might be directed at me rather than > just most of it! > > Really, Walt, I'm trying my very best to take your advise and help > G to lighten up a bit. But it just isn't working! > > But, at least I have the satisfaction of squeezing a few LOLs out > of him...even if they were inspired by unabashed errors, > misconceptions, and prejudices on his part. But, I'm happy to take > whatever small victories I can squeeze out of him in the name of > enlightenment! > > Psst! If you see G, Walt, would you please tell him that it's not > Sarah Palin that I'm afraid of. After watching Dubya get elected > not once but TWICE, I'm afraid that similarly ill-fated > circumstances could someday send the majority of the American > people into yet another de-evolutionary spiral that would result in > Sarah's now-unthinkable election as First-Ditz President of the > United States. (Kinda like the Roseanne Barr factor only slightly > more physically attractive and a lot less funny.) And I'm really, > really afraid of what would happen after Sarah's election with > respect the future of our planet and all who inhabit her. > > But, since you mentioned Sarah's likely resignation shortly after > her election, Walt, I've been giving that possibility a lot of > serious thought. Maybe we "Leftist, Marxist Commie" supporters > really outa consider campaigning for the Sarah in the next > election. Just think about it: Once she gets elected and then > subsequently resigns, that oughta pretty much put an end to her > entire party for good. > > Evolution....ya gotta love it! > > Holly > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 9:33:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > OOO-kay, so now Obama is a "Left, Marxist and Commie"? > Any evidence? Photostats of Commie membership cards? FBI files on > Commie gatherings? Testimonials by former Commies? Any evidence at > all? > Let us get down off the flying rings and drop Palin entirely, please. > Not necessarily in that order. > WW > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:04 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! >> You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what >> I can >> tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then >> twisted to >> meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. >> >> You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get >> confused >> and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his >> share of >> gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To >> find them, >> you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if >> you are >> interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most >> politicians have >> made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than >> their share >> (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) >> >> You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long >> time. >> >> By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. >> There are too many far better candidates available. >> >> Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? >> I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think >> she might >> be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with >> anything she >> does! LOL >> Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything >> she does? >> >> As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that >> one was >> that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the >> subject. Gee, >> should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and >> are unable to >> get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are >> called >> 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are >> breaking our >> laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from >> you, if >> you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that >> sometimes.) You >> are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans >> are supposed >> to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be >> the >> smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the >> Black, the >> Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true >> facts. They >> only voice it. >> >> By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the >> right to >> rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they >> are only >> trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with >> your >> double speak. >> >> I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like >> Obama. >> >> May God have mercy on your soul, >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> >> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >> gallantly >> (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly >> butchering >> facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her >> laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an >> astonishingly nasty dose >> of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to >> see how >> you'd react. Check mate! >> >> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >> you to >> defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. >> Palin >> with respect to her fact twistings. >> >> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >> many, >> many gaffes (see >> http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for >> starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? >> At least I never said the following on Fox News: >> >> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >> light >> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >> we're >> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >> first >> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >> that >> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >> >> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >> lighten >> up as Walt so wisely recommended. >> >> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >> takes >> for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No >> matter how >> long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a >> million >> years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska >> to form >> that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just >> drill baby >> drill. >> >> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >> their term >> as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from >> the >> lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very >> principled to me. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >> and will >> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >> You are >> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >> >> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >> PARENTS >> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >> medicine, >> to >> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >> converted to >> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's >> medical >> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >> regard to >> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >> 'lack of >> principles' than any other politician of today.} >> >> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >> '84; thus, >> I >> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >> boy does >> time fly.) >> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >> Alaska while >> >> an infant. >> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >> national >> >> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >> taken to >> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >> [This >> would >> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >> >> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >> not read >> any such thing. >> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything >> of the >> sort. If >> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >> direction her >> parents. >> >> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >> her >> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >> news >> material >> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >> implied. >> >> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >> converted >> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >> >> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being >> spun this >> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >> the more. >> The >> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >> they lack >> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >> but not >> to >> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >> context, >> then >> putting some goofy spin to it. >> >> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >> medicine >> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >> one time >> in >> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >> treatment of >> any >> kind.] >> >> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >> >> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >> any >> principle. >> >> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >> had to >> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. >> The media >> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >> another >> speech >> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >> would do >> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >> without regard >> to >> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >> back in >> their >> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your >> Obama also >> did >> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >> another >> level to >> the spin of lies. >> >> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as >> an adult! >> >> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >> article >> completely with comprehension without bias. >> >> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >> name >> for >> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >> >> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >> postings: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >> >> May God have mercy on your soul! >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >> CONSISTENT >> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >> change >> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >> women >> like >> that and it's not a pretty one. >> >> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >> seeking >> medical >> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >> medicine. >> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >> DOESN'T >> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >> >> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >> before it >> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >> and >> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >> Canada >> only >> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >> factors, I >> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >> they? >> >> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >> Whitehorse, >> Canada goes, I ask you this: >> >> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >> making from >> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >> helicopter >> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >> the air >> during >> her hunting expeditions! >> >> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >> you >> have >> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >> party >> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >> treatments >> when you >> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >> person >> and >> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >> medicine. >> >> Holly >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada >> or Juneau >> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >> doctors. It >> would >> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >> and what >> you need to see a doctor for. >> >> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >> Skagway are >> a >> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >> accessible by >> ferry. >> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >> >> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE >> Canada >> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >> >> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins >> of lies. >> Check your facts. >> >> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >> Hillsboro? >> >> The Grouch >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >> >> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >> before >> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it >> is Juneau. >> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >> >> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A >> bit like >> the >> >> "internet" statement, heh? >> >> David >> >> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Raises questions like >>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>> lived in. >> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >> Doctor >> that >> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >> closest >> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >> the >> nearest >> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >> Canada. >>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>> the U.S. >> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >> about her >> life >> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >> up not >> far >> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>> >>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>> good >> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >> having to >> travel >> larger distances to a major American facility. >>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>> something >> else. >>> >>> The Grouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 07:55:51 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:55:51 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just my poor thought here... What are the chances that if Obama would have said "43" there would be a "gaff line" claiming that he didn't know he was the 44th president? And how many of the gaff finders would be willing to claim that one, just to find a gaff for their collection? You appear to be right...but being a leader is not always about irritating those who do not know those little details of life. It just makes the pig mad, as they say. Kristy On 3/11/10 8:40 AM, "Adam Mayer" wrote: > And another. > > Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his > inaugural speech: > > "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." > > Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland > did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>> >>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>> As it happened in Portland. >>> >>> How many states do we have ? >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>> >>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>> >> >> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video >> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the >> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the >> seven after a long pause. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 07:59:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:59:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > And another. > > Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his > inaugural speech: > > "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." > > Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland > did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this administration? > > Adam > > Jeff Howden wrote: >>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>> >>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>> As it happened in Portland. >>> >>> How many states do we have ? >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>> >>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>> >> >> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >> the video >> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >> to the >> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >> and then the >> seven after a long pause. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 11 08:24:03 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:24:03 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> References: <49e56.5c20a557.38c9d3f1@aol.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2B59@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> You wrote: " Why is the Left (and YOU [meaning Holly]) so afraid that she might run for office?" Oooops, I don't believe I have ever said anything about fearing a Palin run for president. Indeed, I desperately want to see her be the Republican nominee. Bring it on! Tea baggers, palm readers, yes!! Pulleeeze.... -Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jamsm at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Oh, you are so 'smart' [NOT] to claim you set me up! LOL! You did not set me up at all - you are not that smart! From what I can tell, your reading skills are extremely selective and limited then twisted to meet what ever belief you may have on the subject. You and your kind love to poke fun at certain people when they get confused and say the wrong things. Your Obama has done more than his share of gaffs, but the main stream media ignores all of his mistakes. To find them, you have to dig through the web. There are a number on YouTube if you are interested in looking for, then listening to them. Most politicians have made stupid statements at one time or other. Some make more than their share (Ms. Clinton and GW Bush to name a couple more.) You have been spouting Left and Marxist views on here for a long time. By the way, I HIGHLY doubt that I would ever vote for her. There are too many far better candidates available. Why is the Left (and YOU) so afraid that she might run for office? I think the Republican party is being smart to let the Left think she might be a valid candidate - it sure keeps the Left distracted with anything she does! LOL Are you that afraid of her, that you have to bash her on anything she does? As I stated before, the only reason I was defending her on that one was that you so insistently portrayed complete ignorance on the subject. Gee, should I bring up how sad you are over having lost your job and are unable to get work but you will support all the illegal aliens (they are called 'illegal aliens' as they come into the U.S. illegally - they are breaking our laws) that are in our country - taking your job (taking work from you, if you are an American citizen, I have to wonder about that sometimes.) You are pitifully ignorant. But how can that be - only Republicans are supposed to be ignorant and the those that vote Democrat are supposed to be the smart ones. Also, the Democrats want to claim they support the Black, the Hispanic, etc, when in fact, they don't when you look at the true facts. They only voice it. By your reasoning - anyone that wants to better themselves has the right to rob and steal (break laws) do whatever they want, because "they are only trying to better themselves." You and your kind are sickening with your double speak. I will never vote or support a Left, Marxist or Commie - like Obama. May God have mercy on your soul, The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 5:35:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. Check mate! Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following on Fox News: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't sound very principled to me. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read and will interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! You are extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER PARENTS took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized medicine, to Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada converted to socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used Canada's medical system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with regard to socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less 'lack of principles' than any other politician of today.} Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; thus, I was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy does time fly.) Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to Alaska while an infant. This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their national health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been taken to Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years [This would be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have not read any such thing. Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of the sort. If she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the direction her parents. But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that her statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted news material and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news implied. Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada converted to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun this outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all the more. The Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; they lack any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, but not to the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of context, then putting some goofy spin to it. I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized medicine just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada one time in the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical treatment of any kind.] Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking any principle. If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton had to say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The media would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with another speech to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he would do and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without regard to any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back in their news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama also did the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet another level to the spin of lies. Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an adult! But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the article completely with comprehension without bias. You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a name for a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your postings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 May God have mercy on your soul! The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's CONSISTENT alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to change based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for women like that and it's not a pretty one. One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED seeking medical care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized medicine. Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN DOESN'T HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system before it became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer and wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if Canada only adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These factors, I suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would they? As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to Whitehorse, Canada goes, I ask you this: Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making from Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire helicopter pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from the air during her hunting expeditions! Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when you have publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a party leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical treatments when you live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED person and have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized medicine. Holly ________________________________ From: "Jamsm at aol.com" To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or Juneau AK are where her parents went took their children to see doctors. It would be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year and what you need to see a doctor for. It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and Skagway are a short distance from each other. While Juneau would be accessible by ferry. Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities BEFORE Canada went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of lies. Check your facts. Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in Hillsboro? The Grouch In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jo.david at verizon.net writes: The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is before her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is Juneau. http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit like the "internet" statement, heh? David On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Raises questions like > 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she lived in. Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a Doctor that drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. > 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that the nearest large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. > 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to Canada. >From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in the U.S. steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit about her life growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing up not far from Whitehorse, not her kids. > > If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very good sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses having to travel larger distances to a major American facility. > But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean something else. > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 11 08:28:18 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:28:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <725F36F4-6D7C-4FE2-B9AF-2252F50227D6@verizon.net> References: <196568582.13150681268275912888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <725F36F4-6D7C-4FE2-B9AF-2252F50227D6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2B6F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of course. And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 11 08:33:49 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:33:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <684D6F9A-816B-4C02-937F-933444C00873@verizon.net> References: <4a1e1.87096f0.38c9d5a6@aol.com> <684D6F9A-816B-4C02-937F-933444C00873@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2B96@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> OMG, the secret's out!! I have been living a double life...and David has now exposed my doppelganger...Michael Steele. I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive David for this egregious slip up. Gotta go...must be back in DC for a meeting with health care lobbyists. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? So, who acts as spokesperson for the Republican Party these days? Steele, Cheney, Limbaugh, Palin, Huckabee, Romney, the Tea Party, Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito? David On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:12 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > They are both losers! So, to make Obama look good you have to compare him to what the Dems consider the lowest denominator to make him look good! > Laughable! > > The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 08:37:28 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:37:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would have said anything either, right? Walt Wentz wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >> inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland >> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> > > Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two > Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) > Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of > speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to > offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, > or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this > administration? > >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>> >>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>> >>>> How many states do we have ? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>> >>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>> >>>> >>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>> the video >>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>> to the >>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>> and then the >>> seven after a long pause. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 08:42:41 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:42:41 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B991D81.4060708@gmail.com> It's the difference between saying this is the 44th time the oath has been given as opposed to the 44th person. The first is correct, the second is incorrect. As you know politics is based on what you say and how you say it. My concern is having a double standard. George Bush was criticized for every little error he would make or say. This is something that I had no problem with. But if you hold Bush to that standard then you must hold Obama to the same exact standard. Adam Kristy Gravlin wrote: > Just my poor thought here... > What are the chances that if Obama would have said "43" > there would be a "gaff line" claiming that he didn't know he was the 44th > president? > And how many of the gaff finders would be willing to claim that one, just to > find a gaff for their collection? > You appear to be right...but being a leader is not always about irritating > those who do not know those little details of life. > It just makes the pig mad, as they say. > Kristy > > > On 3/11/10 8:40 AM, "Adam Mayer" wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >> inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland >> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>> >>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>> >>>> How many states do we have ? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>> >>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>> >>>> >>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video >>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the >>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the >>> seven after a long pause. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 09:54:45 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:54:45 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <1506060820.2179934.1268330085101.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> The number today is 625 http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email38&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 09:38:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:38:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. Coincidence? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:37:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would have said anything either, right? Walt Wentz wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >> inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland >> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> > > Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two > Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) > Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of > speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to > offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, > or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this > administration? > >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>> >>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>> >>>> How many states do we have ? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>> >>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>> >>>> >>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>> the video >>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>> to the >>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>> and then the >>> seven after a long pause. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 09:41:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:41:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2B6F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <476058024.13365231268329289089.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> But for under six months. BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those schools, except Occidental of course. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of course. And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 11 10:54:44 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:54:44 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2FFC@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Google shows 47...using "muslim contries + list" Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. Coincidence? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:37:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would have said anything either, right? Walt Wentz wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >> inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland >> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> > > Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two > Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) > Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of > speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to > offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, > or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this > administration? > >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>> >>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>> >>>> How many states do we have ? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>> >>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>> >>>> >>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>> the video >>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>> to the >>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>> and then the >>> seven after a long pause. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Mar 11 10:59:55 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:59:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <476058024.13365231268329289089.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2B6F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <476058024.13365231268329289089.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C301C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? But for under six months. BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those schools, except Occidental of course. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of course. And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Mar 11 11:23:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:23:30 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <007501cac150$55919870$00b4c950$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. > > Coincidence? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Already asked and answered, but seemingly ignored: "What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? The simplest answer is usually the correct answer." Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 13:58:25 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:58:25 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would notice at all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would > have > said anything either, right? > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> And another. >>> >>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>> inaugural speech: >>> >>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>> >>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>> Cleveland >>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>> right? >>> >> >> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >> administration? >> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>> >>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>> >>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>> >>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>> the video >>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>>> to the >>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>> and then the >>>> seven after a long pause. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 14:12:27 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:12:27 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Message-ID: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> So you like to back him up.. respond to these 7 lies in under two minutes _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&NR=1_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&NR=1) My Muslim Faith _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related) Oh, I know you will say he is tired. lol But many of the Gaffs that he does are with a teleprompter in front of him Take away his teleprompter and gets as dumb as Bush - or dumber. In a message dated 3/11/2010 1:24:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, admin at jeffhowden.com writes: > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > Had to dig this one up... just too funny! > As it happened in Portland. > > How many states do we have ? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ > > Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the seven after a long pause. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:18:45 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:18:45 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> Walt, You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It should be the same for both. And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would notice at > all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he > committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. > On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >> have >> said anything either, right? >> >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> And another. >>>> >>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>> inaugural speech: >>>> >>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>> >>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>> Cleveland >>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>> right? >>>> >>>> >>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>> administration? >>> >>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>> >>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>> >>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>>> the video >>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>>>> to the >>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>> and then the >>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Mar 11 14:45:49 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:45:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> References: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b001cac16c$98f91590$caeb40b0$@com> Grouch, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > 7 lies in under two minutes > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&NR=1) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 1 - He has improved openness and transparency. The most obvious example is at http://www.data.gov/. He didn't indicate how much or specifically in what ways. Doing so would be foolish. 2 - This is either a lack of thorough research or an out and out lie by the producer of the video because Brandeis *did*, in fact, say what Obama claims he once said. The second sentence: "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman." http://www.law.louisville.edu/library/collections/brandeis/node/196 That's just what I could find in the first few minutes of looking. Perhaps later tonight if I have time I'll look up the rest. For the record, this isn't about wanting to "back him up". This is about seeking out the truth. Jeff > > My Muslim Faith > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related) > > > Oh, I know you will say he is tired. lol > But many of the Gaffs that he does are with a teleprompter in front of > him > Take away his teleprompter and gets as dumb as Bush - or dumber. > > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 1:24:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > admin at jeffhowden.com writes: > > > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > > > Had to dig this one up... just too funny! > > As it happened in Portland. > > > > How many states do we have ? > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ > > > > Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! > > Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said > boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the > video > that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to > the > number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and > then > the > seven after a long pause. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: > 03/10/10 23:33:00 From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 19:16:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:16:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not often spoken of. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules?xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 19:49:47 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:49:47 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <00FB90F5-8E41-4B7E-9BA7-592F146F525F@verizon.net> Maybe it is too early in the evening, but "what the blue blazes is that web site talking about?" The editor of that post, is trying to tie Ukrainian deaths to Obama. Why Soviet caused deaths? Why not Polish and German deaths? Why talk about Communist brutality when the flip side, the Fascists, were doing the same thing. As an outsider, I cannot know, but I would guess that the writer is more afraid of Communists than they are afraid of Fascists. We are not Communists and we are not Fascists. Which is good, because I fear both extremes. The problem is extremism and the willingness to push humans into categories that allow those with the weapons to kill them with no public outcry. We are not immune from that sort of behavior. I would like to think that we are consciously trying to avoid it. I met a dog once that would growl, snap, and bark when it was afraid. The teeth and vicious actions were the visible manifestation of fear. I suspect that this author has some common traits there. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules?xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 19:52:48 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:52:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7F36B6BF697844189AA03977143764BA@EdDaviePC> Do you really believe this crap? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not often spoken of. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules?xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:01:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:01:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <541025177.13635941268366463307.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think Jeff and Grouch and I and others are on pretty much the same scent. Two days ago I spoke of these things, lack of unity between word and action, etc. Responses have ranged from you might have heard him wrong, or you might have heard that from another person, or from Beck, or from Palin, whatever. Followed by a request for details, and submissions of proof of which I spoke. My response was I didn't hear it from anyone else, Limbaugh didn't tell me, I heard it directly from his mouth. He couldn't remember what he lied about, so covers it up with another lie. The proof is in what he says. The proof is in what he does. He said while running, "I will fundamentally change the way things are done in America, (paraphrased) That may be the only truth he has told in the past two years. I don't recall anyone saying Bush was really smart, though an IQ of 120 isn't all that bad. I do recall people many times saying Obama was very smart, some said a genius. A couple said his IQ was 130. That is pretty good, but far from great. Yet it is enough one would expect that he be capable of keeping his stories straight. Comments anyone. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs So you like to back him up.. respond to these 7 lies in under two minutes _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&NR=1_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&NR=1) My Muslim Faith _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related) Oh, I know you will say he is tired. lol But many of the Gaffs that he does are with a teleprompter in front of him Take away his teleprompter and gets as dumb as Bush - or dumber. In a message dated 3/11/2010 1:24:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, admin at jeffhowden.com writes: > From: Jamsm at aol.com > > Had to dig this one up... just too funny! > As it happened in Portland. > > How many states do we have ? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ > > Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the seven after a long pause. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 20:05:02 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:05:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Think you know me? In-Reply-To: <415991377.13234791268299963132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <415991377.13234791268299963132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <82839520-1E65-4DA8-8072-AFF1250A642C@verizon.net> And I missed all the interesting parts, too. That is the problem with forming opinions about people from sound bites or short pieces of their written words. It can be especially bad when a third party is preparing and serving those sounds and words. We may agree somedays on somethings, and not agree at other times. We have the right to conduct open discussions on almost any topic. That right and the others didn't come by accident, and it didn't come all at once in 1776 through 1787 either. We have been growing the tree of liberty since that time. The patriots that water that tree are usually recognized as being members of the armed services. I would suggest that there have been others as well. As we remember them, the tradition of a good, loud wake, where we make sure that we enjoy everything that they have given us, is proper. Enjoy, use, protect, defend, and expand the liberties, or be prepared to lose them. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:32 AM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, you got part of me, but not all of me. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:06:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:06:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7F36B6BF697844189AA03977143764BA@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <851067852.13637731268366790109.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Most of it YES. From the cascading facts alone, Don't you? What is the difference between a communist government and a socialist government. Answer: The socialists don't have all of the guns yet. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Davie To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:52:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Do you really believe this crap? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not often spoken of. http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules?xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:09:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Think you know me? In-Reply-To: <82839520-1E65-4DA8-8072-AFF1250A642C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <78804194.13638771268366981179.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Yes David. We can all disagree or disagree. The key is we continue to talk and exchange facts and viewpoints. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:05:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Think you know me? And I missed all the interesting parts, too. That is the problem with forming opinions about people from sound bites or short pieces of their written words. It can be especially bad when a third party is preparing and serving those sounds and words. We may agree somedays on somethings, and not agree at other times. We have the right to conduct open discussions on almost any topic. That right and the others didn't come by accident, and it didn't come all at once in 1776 through 1787 either. We have been growing the tree of liberty since that time. The patriots that water that tree are usually recognized as being members of the armed services. I would suggest that there have been others as well. As we remember them, the tradition of a good, loud wake, where we make sure that we enjoy everything that they have given us, is proper. Enjoy, use, protect, defend, and expand the liberties, or be prepared to lose them. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:32 AM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, you got part of me, but not all of me. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 20:22:05 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:22:05 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Message-ID: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:29:29 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:29:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <375900164.13646201268368169304.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Cast Iron Tubs, very heavy, keep water warm longer, can be refinished or repaired, a superior tub by far, but have to be special ordered. . .about a ten day delivery period. Acrylic or fiberglass are light weight, keep water warm, but not as long, and can be refinished, cost a lot less, and clawfoot tubs must be ordered, wait about ten days. However, Moreland, 99 Beaverton, might have a clawfoot in stock. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Martha Khoury To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:22:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:31:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:31:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <00FB90F5-8E41-4B7E-9BA7-592F146F525F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1993909310.13646891268368301413.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Amen to that. It is only the facts of history that are scary. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:49:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Maybe it is too early in the evening, but "what the blue blazes is that web site talking about?" The editor of that post, is trying to tie Ukrainian deaths to Obama. Why Soviet caused deaths? Why not Polish and German deaths? Why talk about Communist brutality when the flip side, the Fascists, were doing the same thing. As an outsider, I cannot know, but I would guess that the writer is more afraid of Communists than they are afraid of Fascists. We are not Communists and we are not Fascists. Which is good, because I fear both extremes. The problem is extremism and the willingness to push humans into categories that allow those with the weapons to kill them with no public outcry. We are not immune from that sort of behavior. I would like to think that we are consciously trying to avoid it. I met a dog once that would growl, snap, and bark when it was afraid. The teeth and vicious actions were the visible manifestation of fear. I suspect that this author has some common traits there. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules?xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 20:35:35 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:35:35 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama Care Message-ID: <78b43.2a4b8d2e.38cb1e97@aol.com> Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send a strong message to DC. Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and Health Care Freedom. >From what I can tell the Freedom Health Care bill specifically blocks certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the Virginians. Specifically, no Virginian will be required to have health care nor can they be fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand there are 3 variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at MSNBC but that link took you to the 'home' page with no related story (pulled?). I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states following suit and have to contend many states with laws passed nullifying and blocking aspects of the Obama Care. Wouldn't it be funny that while Obama tries to force his Obama Care through at the federal level, that a significant number of states end around him with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states - join in and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at least create a new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much authority should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In recent years the Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more and more - maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. search: Virginia Health Care or Virginia Health Care Freedom http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill-passes-v a-house The Grouch From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 20:38:08 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:38:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> References: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000501cac19d$d12a3170$737e9450$@net> Rejuvenation hardware in portland > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Martha Khoury > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice > > Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new > clawfoot tub. > > The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. > > Thanks. > > --Martha K. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Thu Mar 11 20:53:36 2010 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (jschrag at fgnewstimes.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:53:36 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> References: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> Message-ID: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John ? ? ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 20:59:45 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:59:45 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... Message-ID: <799cd.761fedf9.38cb2441@aol.com> Found a better 'copy' of the news that is coming out of Virginia today. http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to-pass-anti -mandate-health-reform-bill/ [By the way, I stumbled upon this news while searching "VA health care" as in Veterans.] I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to correct some of them below. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:36:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send a strong message to DC. Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and Health Care Freedom. >From what I can tell, the Freedom Health Care bill specifically blocks certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the Virginians. Specifically, no Virginian shall be required to have health care insurance nor can they be fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand there are more than 3 variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at MSNBC, but that link took me to MSNBC's 'home' page with no related story (pulled or story is too new?). I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states following suit and have to contend many states with laws passed nullifying and blocking aspects of the Obama Care. Wouldn't it be funny that, while Obama tries to force his Obama Care through at the federal level, that a significant number of states end around him with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states - join in and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at least create a new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much authority should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In recent years, the Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more and more - maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. search: Virginia Health Care or Virginia Health Care Freedom http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill-passes-v a-house The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:06:01 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:06:01 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Message-ID: <79ce6.754aba3a.38cb25b9@aol.com> It is! The bath tub has a health issue that requires major medical care and due to Obama's Health Care cannot be seen by a doctor for over a year. The tub will die in the next couple weeks, before being able to be seen by a doctor for treatment. :-D The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:53:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jschrag at fgnewstimes.com writes: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 21:12:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:12:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... In-Reply-To: <799cd.761fedf9.38cb2441@aol.com> Message-ID: <677918786.13658971268370733016.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> That is another thing I am kept aware of, nullification at the state level. Last I heard, several other states are debating whether to also do this. I'm not that up on local health care, but doesn't Oregon have it's own health care in place already? If so, can the fed unilaterally over ride state law? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... Found a better 'copy' of the news that is coming out of Virginia today. http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to-pass-anti -mandate-health-reform-bill/ [By the way, I stumbled upon this news while searching "VA health care" as in Veterans.] I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to correct some of them below. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:36:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send a strong message to DC. Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and Health Care Freedom. >From what I can tell, the Freedom Health Care bill specifically blocks certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the Virginians. Specifically, no Virginian shall be required to have health care insurance nor can they be fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand there are more than 3 variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at MSNBC, but that link took me to MSNBC's 'home' page with no related story (pulled or story is too new?). I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states following suit and have to contend many states with laws passed nullifying and blocking aspects of the Obama Care. Wouldn't it be funny that, while Obama tries to force his Obama Care through at the federal level, that a significant number of states end around him with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states - join in and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at least create a new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much authority should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In recent years, the Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more and more - maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. search: Virginia Health Care or Virginia Health Care Freedom http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill-passes-v a-house The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 21:12:28 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:12:28 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... In-Reply-To: <799cd.761fedf9.38cb2441@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi G... It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what you were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little "typo"...we all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. Kristy On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: > I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) > in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before > presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right - > please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you > come them. I tried to correct some of them. >> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) >> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of >> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the >> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the >> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to >> correct some of them below. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 21:14:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:14:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <79ce6.754aba3a.38cb25b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <1804191941.13659741268370873103.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hint Cast iron rusts. Can't blame Osama for that. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice It is! The bath tub has a health issue that requires major medical care and due to Obama's Health Care cannot be seen by a doctor for over a year. The tub will die in the next couple weeks, before being able to be seen by a doctor for treatment. :-D The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:53:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jschrag at fgnewstimes.com writes: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jschrag at fgnewstimes.com Thu Mar 11 21:18:27 2010 From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com (jschrag at fgnewstimes.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:18:27 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <1804191941.13659741268370873103.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <79ce6.754aba3a.38cb25b9@aol.com> <1804191941.13659741268370873103.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Aha! It was Neil Young who sang Rust Never Sleeps. He's Canadian, so we know he's a socialist, right? John ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:15 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Hint Cast iron rusts. Can't blame Osama for that. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice It is! The bath tub has a health issue that requires major medical care and due to Obama's Health Care cannot be seen by a doctor for over a year. The tub will die in the next couple weeks, before being able to be seen by a doctor for treatment. :-D The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:53:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jschrag at fgnewstimes.com writes: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 21:24:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:24:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <526385997.13663481268371477041.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Perhaps (tongue in cheek) not personally, but by government, YES. But can't color him red through association. . . .or can one? don ----- Original Message ----- From: jschrag at fgnewstimes.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:18:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Aha! It was Neil Young who sang Rust Never Sleeps. He's Canadian, so we know he's a socialist, right? John ? ? ? -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:15 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Hint Cast iron rusts. Can't blame Osama for that. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice It is! The bath tub has a health issue that requires major medical care and due to Obama's Health Care cannot be seen by a doctor for over a year. The tub will die in the next couple weeks, before being able to be seen by a doctor for treatment. :-D The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:53:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jschrag at fgnewstimes.com writes: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 21:27:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:27:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe In-Reply-To: <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> Message-ID: In mentioning (again and again and again) "Obama's Gaffs," do you mean that he collects harpoons, fore-and-aft sails, or boathooks? Or did you really mean to say "gaffes," meaning verbal slips, mistakes or Spoonerisms? I bet Obama would never commit a gaffe like that... ;^) From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:28:51 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:28:51 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C Message-ID: <7a7aa.7216c4f5.38cb2b13@aol.com> No ! - and you made mistakes while attempting to put words in my mouth. The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hannah at teleport.com writes: Hi G... It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what you were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little "typo"...we all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. Kristy On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: > I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) > in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before > presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right - > please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you > come them. I tried to correct some of them. >> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) >> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of >> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the >> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the >> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to >> correct some of them below. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:30:33 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:30:33 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Message-ID: <7a865.4fd47a46.38cb2b79@aol.com> But Rust is treatable if treated early enough! The Grouvh In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:14:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ocollaugh at comcast.net writes: Hint Cast iron rusts. Can't blame Osama for that. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:06:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice It is! The bath tub has a health issue that requires major medical care and due to Obama's Health Care cannot be seen by a doctor for over a year. The tub will die in the next couple weeks, before being able to be seen by a doctor for treatment. :-D The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:53:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jschrag at fgnewstimes.com writes: Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. John -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Martha Khoury Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:22 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new clawfoot tub. The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. Thanks. --Martha K. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:31:55 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:31:55 EST Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe Message-ID: <7a8e5.9d95f8e.38cb2bcb@aol.com> Bet he would - actually much worse The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:28:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: In mentioning (again and again and again) "Obama's Gaffs," do you mean that he collects harpoons, fore-and-aft sails, or boathooks? Or did you really mean to say "gaffes," meaning verbal slips, mistakes or Spoonerisms? I bet Obama would never commit a gaffe like that... ;^) _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 21:35:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1216621545.13666101268372139725.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> My bet is- - -BAD BET. Meanwhile, Who wrote this? Share this discussion with your friends, neighbors, co-workers, relatives, church congregation members, and other peers. Anybody who you don't think will turn you in to the Obama administration for sedition against his highness, the Crown Prince of America, Barack Hussein Obama. Sorry about the sarcasm there. I just get disgusted by worship of deeply flawed personalities, such as the current occupant of the White House, as well as FDR, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, etc. The flagrant violations of our constitution during the previous three administrations were bad enough. Our Founding Fathers would have been horrified that such things happened in America. But the current administration really takes the cake. Definitely not the sole enemy of the Constitution and the Freedom of the American People, but far and away the worst this century It wasn't me who wrote this, or Beck, or Palin, or Limbaugh, it wasn't even a republican who wrote it. Whomever wrote it certainly is not blind, though he/she might have a blind spot or two. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:27:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe In mentioning (again and again and again) "Obama's Gaffs," do you mean that he collects harpoons, fore-and-aft sails, or boathooks? Or did you really mean to say "gaffes," meaning verbal slips, mistakes or Spoonerisms? I bet Obama would never commit a gaffe like that... ;^) From allnutt at verizon.net Thu Mar 11 21:36:21 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:36:21 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> References: <3852BA35-2779-4827-9680-A4A5FF2B22A3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2563EE7A-675F-4265-A8DD-FC026B4D0CD0@verizon.net> I don't know if they are still in business, but we got our tub at Milwaukie Tub and Tile over on the other side of Portland. They salvage tubs from remodels and demolitions and they refinish them (and the feet) using a better process than the one you get if you resurface it in your house. They have/had lots of sizes and they could chrome the feet or paint them to match the tub. Dang heavy to move them and you need friends with strong backs but I am partial to the cast iron ones though I am not sure why. Maybe it is because the cast iron ones feel 'real'. Katie On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > Anyone have opinions about acrylic vs. cast iron ... need a new > clawfoot tub. > > The old one has been resurfaced several times. Just doesn't work. > > Thanks. > > --Martha K. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:48:38 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:48:38 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C Message-ID: <7afe4.b666fca.38cb2fb6@aol.com> The way that I have observed the Feds to force states to abide to the Feds will is to deny money for various things to get the state to comply. It doesn't always work. Especially, if many states are rebelling; then the Feds will change the rules. Some areas this has been done by the Feds, in more recent times, is in regards to Social Security funding and potentially money for schools. (Not really sure about these examples - brain is tired.) But, the Feds have often used access to Federal funds to get states to comply. Road building, Transportation also come to mind. Seems to me, that there were times the Fed would deny money in one category to get the states to comply in another. The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ocollaugh at comcast.net writes: That is another thing I am kept aware of, nullification at the state level. Last I heard, several other states are debating whether to also do this. I'm not that up on local health care, but doesn't Oregon have it's own health care in place already? If so, can the fed unilaterally over ride state law? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... Found a better 'copy' of the news that is coming out of Virginia today. http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to-pass-anti -mandate-health-reform-bill/ [By the way, I stumbled upon this news while searching "VA health care" as in Veterans.] I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to correct some of them below. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:36:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send a strong message to DC. Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and Health Care Freedom. >From what I can tell, the Freedom Health Care bill specifically blocks certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the Virginians. Specifically, no Virginian shall be required to have health care insurance nor can they be fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand there are more than 3 variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at MSNBC, but that link took me to MSNBC's 'home' page with no related story (pulled or story is too new?). I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states following suit and have to contend many states with laws passed nullifying and blocking aspects of the Obama Care. Wouldn't it be funny that, while Obama tries to force his Obama Care through at the federal level, that a significant number of states end around him with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states - join in and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at least create a new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much authority should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In recent years, the Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more and more - maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. search: Virginia Health Care or Virginia Health Care Freedom http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill-passes-v a-house The Grouch From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 21:54:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:54:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C In-Reply-To: <7afe4.b666fca.38cb2fb6@aol.com> Message-ID: <396946678.13669461268373246739.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Palin in Alaska told them to shove it, Alaska did not need government tax money. Still, lack of government subsidies for mail delivery, subsidies for heating, especially in bush Alaska, badly hurt the natives. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:48:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C The way that I have observed the Feds to force states to abide to the Feds will is to deny money for various things to get the state to comply. It doesn't always work. Especially, if many states are rebelling; then the Feds will change the rules. Some areas this has been done by the Feds, in more recent times, is in regards to Social Security funding and potentially money for schools. (Not really sure about these examples - brain is tired.) But, the Feds have often used access to Federal funds to get states to comply. Road building, Transportation also come to mind. Seems to me, that there were times the Fed would deny money in one category to get the states to comply in another. The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ocollaugh at comcast.net writes: That is another thing I am kept aware of, nullification at the state level. Last I heard, several other states are debating whether to also do this. I'm not that up on local health care, but doesn't Oregon have it's own health care in place already? If so, can the fed unilaterally over ride state law? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:59:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C... Found a better 'copy' of the news that is coming out of Virginia today. http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to-pass-anti -mandate-health-reform-bill/ [By the way, I stumbled upon this news while searching "VA health care" as in Veterans.] I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I meant) in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because of spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting the message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I tried to correct some of them below. The Grouch In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:36:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Jamsm at aol.com writes: Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send a strong message to DC. Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and Health Care Freedom. >From what I can tell, the Freedom Health Care bill specifically blocks certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the Virginians. Specifically, no Virginian shall be required to have health care insurance nor can they be fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand there are more than 3 variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at MSNBC, but that link took me to MSNBC's 'home' page with no related story (pulled or story is too new?). I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states following suit and have to contend many states with laws passed nullifying and blocking aspects of the Obama Care. Wouldn't it be funny that, while Obama tries to force his Obama Care through at the federal level, that a significant number of states end around him with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states - join in and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at least create a new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much authority should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In recent years, the Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more and more - maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. search: Virginia Health Care or Virginia Health Care Freedom http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill-passes-v a-house The Grouch _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 21:57:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:57:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <1820667023.13208341268285043862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1820667023.13208341268285043862.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and pacifists. He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and heard it. Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said > last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, > changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is > with. Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody else. > > One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a > thousand more lies just like that. Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to take political risks, which is another welcome change. > > No one could make that up. Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The sources???? >> Him on live TV. > > Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and > unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they > were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because > they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they > identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been > documented and codified for public research? In short, are you > willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already > overheated debate? > WW > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>> no experience. >>> >>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, >> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >> WW >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Holly T. >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>> Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >>> on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>> sound very principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >>> thus, I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >>> does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >>> the sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>> her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>> this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>> any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >>> media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >>> regard to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >>> in their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>> also did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >>> adult! >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >>> from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>> the air during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >>> Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>> lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>> Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>> like the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>> the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Mar 11 21:58:54 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:58:54 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: 's message of Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:53:36 -0800 Message-ID: <25763-4B99D81E-2055@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Martha.. John just may-be right about it being Obama' fault. He is probably using it brewing up another Health Care scam. We all know that any form of caustic language will wear away any-ones defences ,even bathtubs ~A~ {;?) pain in the neck ~ Hoss that is my story and I'm sticking to it. John wrote..... Martha I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's Obama's fault. From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:23:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:23:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not > often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules? > xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 22:45:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:45:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <007501cac150$55919870$00b4c950$@com> Message-ID: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Depends on definition and context. Do you mean you think the president favors Muslims over Americans. I believe the answer is YES, because he said so in his book, and later on live TV. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:23:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. > > Coincidence? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Already asked and answered, but seemingly ignored: "What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? The simplest answer is usually the correct answer." Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Fri Mar 12 00:01:53 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:01:53 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> Suggest viewing what he says in all the links. I am sure different people will interpret what he is saying differently than others. But I suggest that you not take any one speech by itself but look at what he tends to imply with his various statements. He uses 'Facts' mixed with opinions, thus some will never see (hear) the truth of his beliefs. He is very good at disguising what he believes. Walt, I have already posted several videos showing Obama lying - there are many more on YouTube., Guess you just don't like hearing the truth and like to see the world through your rose colored glasses. Obama is smart enough to know that neither an atheist nor a Muslim would ever be elected President of the United States. Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks of the US as a Muslim nation) _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two things (that I have found so far) 1) quote: "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause 'ah') although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian population 'we' do not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish nation, or a Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." [Got tired of trying to include all of his stutters ah-hem,etc.] What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. is far more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are no longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in recent years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. 2) quote: "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world." 3) quote: "We are NO longer a Christian nation." Quote 3 implies he believes the U.S. was once a Christian nation. When did this change? Between him implying himself to be Muslim (this video was posted here previously) though he claims to be Christian. [political suicide to admit Muslim faith or even atheist faith] he shows his Muslim preference. Care to 'bow' very low to the leading Muslim - he must have FORGOT who he is supposed to be, The President. I can get that video too - it is on YouTube. Is Obama a Christian or something else - Atheist? Muslim? View these: Title: Barack Obama: We Are Not A Christian Nation! _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related) Be sure to listen to his words at the very end of this video. The video shows the Left view of Obama's statements. But ends with Obama making a huge concession about the U.S. Title: Barack Obama Mocks And Makes Fun Of The Bible?No Christian Would Do This _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related) Is Obama atheist? Closes with Obama asking for a moment of silence for Darwin. Title:Obama An Atheist? _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related) Title: Is Obama a closet atheist? {more of a speech which was provided above} _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related) AND to end with a funny well crafted video of "Obama's Muslim Faith" LOL _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related) Hope you enjoyed the videos The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and pacifists. He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and heard it. Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said > last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, > changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is > with. Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody else. > > One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a > thousand more lies just like that. Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to take political risks, which is another welcome change. > > No one could make that up. Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The sources???? >> Him on live TV. > > Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and > unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they > were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because > they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they > identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been > documented and codified for public research? In short, are you > willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already > overheated debate? > WW > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>> no experience. >>> >>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, >> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >> WW >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Holly T. >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>> Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >>> on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>> sound very principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >>> thus, I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >>> does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >>> the sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>> her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>> this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>> any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >>> media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >>> regard to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >>> in their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>> also did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >>> adult! >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >>> from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>> the air during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >>> Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>> lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>> Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>> like the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>> the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:23:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:23:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not > often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules? > xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 13:13:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:13:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> Message-ID: My folks like to use an old expression that goes like this: If we had some eggs, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some ham. Does this imply we have ham and eggs? > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." This does not imply we are a Muslim nation either. It merely states a large number of muslims live in the US. I am highly amused when you take this quote... > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." ...and use it to mean a) that we Are a Muslim country and simultaneously criticize him for saying we are not a Christian nation. If the same sentence that says we are not a Christian nation is some thing to criticize him for, but when that same sentence says we are not a Muslim nation, you claim it implies that he is saying we are a Muslim nation. Why doesn't the same sentence imply that we are a Christian nation? You can not have the same sentence argue two different conclusions. In fact, the United States has never been a Christian nation. The founding fathers explicitly stated our great country was to be neutral with respect to religion. Katie On Mar 12, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggest viewing what he says in all the links. I am sure different > people > will interpret what he is saying differently than others. But I > suggest that > you not take any one speech by itself but look at what he tends to > imply > with his various statements. He uses 'Facts' mixed with opinions, > thus some > will never see (hear) the truth of his beliefs. He is very good at > disguising what he believes. > > Walt, I have already posted several videos showing Obama lying - > there are > many more on YouTube., > Guess you just don't like hearing the truth and like to see the world > through your rose colored glasses. > > Obama is smart enough to know that neither an atheist nor a Muslim > would > ever be elected President of the United States. > > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." > [Got tired of trying to include all of his stutters ah-hem,etc.] > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The > U.S. is far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though > some are no > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people > in recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it > wasn't. > > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." > > 3) quote: > "We are NO longer a Christian nation." > > Quote 3 implies he believes the U.S. was once a Christian nation. > When > did this change? > > Between him implying himself to be Muslim (this video was posted > here > previously) though he claims to be Christian. [political suicide > to admit > Muslim faith or even atheist faith] he shows his Muslim > preference. Care to > 'bow' very low to the leading Muslim - he must have FORGOT who he is > supposed to be, The President. I can get that video too - it is > on YouTube. > > > > Is Obama a Christian or something else - Atheist? Muslim? > > View these: > > Title: Barack Obama: We Are Not A Christian Nation! > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related) > > Be sure to listen to his words at the very end of this video. > The video > shows the Left view of Obama's statements. But ends with Obama > making a > huge concession about the U.S. > Title: Barack Obama Mocks And Makes Fun Of The Bible?No Christian > Would Do > This > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related) > > > Is Obama atheist? > Closes with Obama asking for a moment of silence for Darwin. > Title:Obama An Atheist? > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related) > > Title: Is Obama a closet atheist? {more of a speech which was > provided > above} > > > > > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related) > > > > AND to end with a funny well crafted video of "Obama's Muslim > Faith" LOL > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related) > > Hope you enjoyed the videos > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. > Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to > Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and > pacifists. > He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. > Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and > starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. > He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and > he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > >> Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and >> heard it. > > Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only > what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > >> The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said >> last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, >> changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is >> with. > > Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient > Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up > some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the > business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of > Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us > into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a > "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean > carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change > colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist > Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to > match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and > that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of > course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social > skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody > else. >> >> One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a >> thousand more lies just like that. > > Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've > heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of > Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even > have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political > move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to > take political risks, which is another welcome change. >> >> No one could make that up. > > Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? > WW >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> The sources???? >>> Him on live TV. >> >> Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and >> unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they >> were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because >> they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they >> identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been >> documented and codified for public research? In short, are you >> willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already >> overheated debate? >> WW >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> >>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>>> no experience. >>>> >>>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >>>> from >>>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >>> >>> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him >>> to, >>> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >>> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >>> WW >>>> >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Holly T. >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, >>>> you >>>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>>> Check mate! >>>> >>>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>>> >>>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so >>>> caustic >>>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the >>>> following >>>> on Fox News: >>>> >>>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>>> light >>>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>>> we're >>>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>>> first >>>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>>> that >>>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. >>>> 1, 2008 >>>> >>>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>>> >>>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential >>>> material. >>>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to >>>> think >>>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>>> >>>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>>> sound very principled to me. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>>> and will >>>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>>> You are >>>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>>> >>>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>>> PARENTS >>>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>>> medicine, to >>>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>>> converted to >>>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>>> Canada's medical >>>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>>> regard to >>>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>>> 'lack of >>>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>>> >>>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >>>> '84; >>>> thus, I >>>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >>>> boy >>>> does >>>> time fly.) >>>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>>> Alaska while >>>> an infant. >>>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>>> national >>>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>>> taken to >>>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>>> [This would >>>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>>> >>>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>>> not read >>>> any such thing. >>>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard >>>> anything of >>>> the sort. If >>>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>>> direction her >>>> parents. >>>> >>>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>>> her >>>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>>> news material >>>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>>> implied. >>>> >>>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>>> converted >>>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>>> >>>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>>> this >>>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>>> the more. The >>>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>>> they lack >>>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>>> but not to >>>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>>> context, then >>>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>>> >>>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>>> medicine >>>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>>> one time in >>>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>>> treatment of any >>>> kind.] >>>> >>>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with >>>> the >>>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>>> >>>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>>> any >>>> principle. >>>> >>>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>>> had to >>>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with >>>> lies. The >>>> media >>>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>>> another speech >>>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>>> would do >>>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >>>> without >>>> regard to >>>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >>>> back >>>> in their >>>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>>> also did >>>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >>>> were >>>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>>> another level to >>>> the spin of lies. >>>> >>>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system >>>> as an >>>> adult! >>>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>>> article >>>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>>> >>>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>>> name for >>>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>>> >>>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>>> postings: >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>>> >>>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>>> CONSISTENT >>>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>>> change >>>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>>> women like >>>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>>> >>>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >>>> socialized >>>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>>> seeking medical >>>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >>>> socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>>> DOESN'T >>>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>>> >>>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>>> before it >>>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>>> and >>>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>>> Canada only >>>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>>> factors, I >>>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>>> they? >>>> >>>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>>> Whitehorse, >>>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>>> >>>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >>>> making >>>> from >>>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to >>>> hire >>>> helicopter >>>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very >>>> same >>>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>>> the air during >>>> her hunting expeditions! >>>> >>>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>>> you have >>>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>>> party >>>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>>> treatments when you >>>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>>> person and >>>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse >>>> Canada or >>>> Juneau >>>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>>> doctors. It >>>> would >>>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>>> and what >>>> you need to see a doctor for. >>>> >>>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>>> Skagway are a >>>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>>> accessible by >>>> ferry. >>>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>>> >>>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>>> BEFORE Canada >>>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada >>>> went to >>>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>>> >>>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>>> lies. >>>> Check your facts. >>>> >>>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >>>> have a >>>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>>> Hillsboro? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard >>>> Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>>> before >>>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>>> Juneau. >>>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>>> >>>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>>> like the >>>> >>>> "internet" statement, heh? >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Raises questions like >>>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>>> lived in. >>>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may >>>> have a >>>> Doctor >>>> that >>>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >>>> permitting. >>>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>>> closest >>>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>>> the >>>> nearest >>>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take >>>>> her to >>>> Canada. >>>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>>> the U.S. >>>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>>> about her >>>> life >>>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>>> up not >>>> far >>>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>>> >>>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>>> good >>>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>>> having to >>>> travel >>>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>>> something else. >>>>> >>>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 14:18:07 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:18:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <209619982.13681081268377773083.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <209619982.13681081268377773083.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Barack Obama earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Columbia University. No one has seen his masters thesis because he did not get a masters degree. It was a bachelors degree and you don't write a masters thesis for a bachelors. He then went on to Harvard to get a law degree. Those are JD degrees and are not considered masters degrees either. Why didn't he write a masters thesis then? Because you don't write a masters thesis to get a JD. The whole missing masters thesis is a red herring. Fun to throw around as a conspiracy theory but baseless as an issue. It is not 'apparent' that he visited Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion either. Manning claims he went to Afghanistan but I can't find any references to Obama saying he went to Afghanistan in 1980. He went to Pakistan in the early '80's where he visited with the family of his room mate. And his mother worked in Pakistan around 1983. So what? http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=38624 He hasn't 'hidden' his trip to Afghanistan. It didn't exist. Just like he didn't 'hide' his masters thesis. What we really should be asking is why Obama is 'hiding' the details of his trip to the moon in the '50's. That really should be investigated because the little green moon men are going to invade us next. And every body knows that Obama is really a closeted martian. Katie On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > Naw, true, but reference is to served in federal congress. That was > under six months. > > Graduated Columbia? > > To earn an advanced degree there one had to draft a theasis and > pass the grade. No one has seen his theasis, so does it even exist? > He couldn't normally graduate without it....could he? > > Another in the extreamly long chain of lost, or unavailable > records. What is the man hiding? And why? > > Reverand Manning thinks he knows the answers. > > Anyway, your dates seem right. He apparently visited Afganistan in > 1980, at about 19 years of age. > > A poor kid, how did he do that? You and I could not have visited > Afganistan in 1980, no American citizen could, not legally anyway. > He said he was in Afganistan in 1980, but never said for how long. > Or precisely why, or how, or what passport he used. > > Questions, Curious > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator > from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? > > I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia > in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > But for under six months. > > BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those > schools, except Occidental of course. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more > people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of > course. > > And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different > colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, > Dick Cheney? > > "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? > > Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. > Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. > > Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor > Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator > > Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years > Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years > > Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. > Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. > Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. > > Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their > Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can > pull it off. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >> no experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >> from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 12 17:36:04 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:36:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B991D81.4060708@gmail.com> References: <4B991D81.4060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9AEC04.7000605@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100312/017e2238/attachment-0001.html From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:23:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:23:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2056429232.13620161268363794197.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not > often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules? > xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:12:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:12:30 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his mouth. . On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Walt, > > You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending > Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It should be > the same for both. > > And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty > embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would notice at >> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he >> committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >>> have >>> said anything either, right? >>> >>> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> And another. >>>>> >>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>> >>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>> >>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>> Cleveland >>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>>> right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>> administration? >>>> >>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all >>>>>> said >>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>>>> the video >>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>> down >>>>>> to the >>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>>> and then the >>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 22:05:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:05:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4669116.13671611268373925399.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No Walt, I never heard him say anything in your last paragraph. There was no maybe this, or maybe that. He said it on live TV. He also said Muslim influenced our founding fathers. Having been witnessed on live TV by millions, how do you maybe rationalize those facts away? This is gonna be good. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and pacifists. He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and heard it. Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said > last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, > changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is > with. Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody else. > > One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a > thousand more lies just like that. Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to take political risks, which is another welcome change. > > No one could make that up. Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The sources???? >> Him on live TV. > > Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and > unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they > were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because > they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they > identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been > documented and codified for public research? In short, are you > willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already > overheated debate? > WW > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>> no experience. >>> >>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, >> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >> WW >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Holly T. >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>> Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >>> on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>> sound very principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >>> thus, I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >>> does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >>> the sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>> her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>> this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>> any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >>> media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >>> regard to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >>> in their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>> also did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >>> adult! >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >>> from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>> the air during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >>> Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>> lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>> Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>> like the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>> the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:36:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:36:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe In-Reply-To: <25764-4B99D97D-1618@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25764-4B99D97D-1618@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <06C09D30-479B-4E43-93D2-206BDE4AFB08@teleport.com> Yep, you got it... fox-paws. Pesky little things, they sneak in where you least expect them. On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Walt .. I think the word here would be (foe-paw) .. I seem to remember > hearing that his wife made one somewhere today or yesterday. > > ~A~ {;?) > that is my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 22:45:53 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:45:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <007501cac150$55919870$00b4c950$@com> Message-ID: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Depends on definition and context. Do you mean you think the president favors Muslims over Americans. I believe the answer is YES, because he said so in his book, and later on live TV. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:23:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. > > Coincidence? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Already asked and answered, but seemingly ignored: "What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? The simplest answer is usually the correct answer." Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:35:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:35:15 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Bathtub advice In-Reply-To: <25763-4B99D81E-2055@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25763-4B99D81E-2055@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5212D7BB-E10D-4785-A630-E78AD9989423@teleport.com> Or then again, clawfoot bathtubs date from the early 1900s... meaning it went through the Roaring 20s... meaning it might have had a batch of bathtub hooch cooked up in it! That stuff would eat the shell off a snapping turtle, so no telling what it dod to bathtub enamel or stomach lining. WW On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > Martha.. > John just may-be right about it being Obama' fault. He is probably > using it brewing up another Health Care scam. > We all know that any form of caustic language will wear away any-ones > defences ,even bathtubs > > ~A~ {;?) pain in the neck ~ Hoss > that is my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > John wrote..... > Martha > I'm not sure why your cast iron tub failed, but I'm pretty sure it's > Obama's fault. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 23:09:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:09:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C301C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <209619982.13681081268377773083.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Naw, true, but reference is to served in federal congress. That was under six months. Graduated Columbia? To earn an advanced degree there one had to draft a theasis and pass the grade. No one has seen his theasis, so does it even exist? He couldn't normally graduate without it....could he? Another in the extreamly long chain of lost, or unavailable records. What is the man hiding? And why? Reverand Manning thinks he knows the answers. Anyway, your dates seem right. He apparently visited Afganistan in 1980, at about 19 years of age. A poor kid, how did he do that? You and I could not have visited Afganistan in 1980, no American citizen could, not legally anyway. He said he was in Afganistan in 1980, but never said for how long. Or precisely why, or how, or what passport he used. Questions, Curious don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? But for under six months. BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those schools, except Occidental of course. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of course. And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney? "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can pull it off. David On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and no experience. > > Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 23:12:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:12:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D54C2FFC@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1261499120.13681421268377936123.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I'll buy that Mike. Symantics could explain the balance. Maybe Jobama counted America as a Muslim Country. (TIC) don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:54:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Google shows 47...using "muslim contries + list" Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:38 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. Coincidence? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:37:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would have said anything either, right? Walt Wentz wrote: > On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >> inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland >> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> > > Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two > Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) > Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of > speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to > offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, > or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this > administration? > >> Adam >> >> Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>> >>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>> >>>> How many states do we have ? >>>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>> >>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>> >>>> >>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>> the video >>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>> to the >>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>> and then the >>> seven after a long pause. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 11 22:07:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:07:14 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:38 AM, donkelly wrote: > I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. > > Coincidence? > > don Er... And that number has reference to what? Some of those Muslim countries are small, some large, some very large, but what is the significance of "57?" And before you say "Heinz 57," actually that was just a brand name, not the actual number of condiments that Heinz offers. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Adam Mayer > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:37:28 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would > have > said anything either, right? > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> And another. >>> >>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>> inaugural speech: >>> >>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>> >>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>> Cleveland >>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>> right? >>> >> >> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >> administration? >> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>> >>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>> >>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>> >>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said >>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>> the video >>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down >>>> to the >>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>> and then the >>>> seven after a long pause. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Fri Mar 12 00:01:53 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:01:53 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Message-ID: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> Suggest viewing what he says in all the links. I am sure different people will interpret what he is saying differently than others. But I suggest that you not take any one speech by itself but look at what he tends to imply with his various statements. He uses 'Facts' mixed with opinions, thus some will never see (hear) the truth of his beliefs. He is very good at disguising what he believes. Walt, I have already posted several videos showing Obama lying - there are many more on YouTube., Guess you just don't like hearing the truth and like to see the world through your rose colored glasses. Obama is smart enough to know that neither an atheist nor a Muslim would ever be elected President of the United States. Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks of the US as a Muslim nation) _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two things (that I have found so far) 1) quote: "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause 'ah') although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian population 'we' do not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish nation, or a Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." [Got tired of trying to include all of his stutters ah-hem,etc.] What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. is far more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are no longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in recent years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. 2) quote: "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world." 3) quote: "We are NO longer a Christian nation." Quote 3 implies he believes the U.S. was once a Christian nation. When did this change? Between him implying himself to be Muslim (this video was posted here previously) though he claims to be Christian. [political suicide to admit Muslim faith or even atheist faith] he shows his Muslim preference. Care to 'bow' very low to the leading Muslim - he must have FORGOT who he is supposed to be, The President. I can get that video too - it is on YouTube. Is Obama a Christian or something else - Atheist? Muslim? View these: Title: Barack Obama: We Are Not A Christian Nation! _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related) Be sure to listen to his words at the very end of this video. The video shows the Left view of Obama's statements. But ends with Obama making a huge concession about the U.S. Title: Barack Obama Mocks And Makes Fun Of The Bible?No Christian Would Do This _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related) Is Obama atheist? Closes with Obama asking for a moment of silence for Darwin. Title:Obama An Atheist? _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related) Title: Is Obama a closet atheist? {more of a speech which was provided above} _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related) AND to end with a funny well crafted video of "Obama's Muslim Faith" LOL _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related) Hope you enjoyed the videos The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and pacifists. He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and heard it. Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said > last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, > changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is > with. Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody else. > > One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a > thousand more lies just like that. Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to take political risks, which is another welcome change. > > No one could make that up. Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? WW > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The sources???? >> Him on live TV. > > Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and > unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they > were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because > they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they > identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been > documented and codified for public research? In short, are you > willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already > overheated debate? > WW > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>> no experience. >>> >>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far from >>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him to, >> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >> WW >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Holly T. >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, you >>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>> Check mate! >>> >>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>> >>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so caustic >>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the following >>> on Fox News: >>> >>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>> light >>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>> we're >>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>> first >>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>> that >>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. 1, 2008 >>> >>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>> >>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential material. >>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to think >>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>> >>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>> sound very principled to me. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>> and will >>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>> You are >>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>> >>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>> PARENTS >>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>> medicine, to >>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>> converted to >>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>> Canada's medical >>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>> regard to >>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>> 'lack of >>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>> >>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed '84; >>> thus, I >>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - boy >>> does >>> time fly.) >>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>> Alaska while >>> an infant. >>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>> national >>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>> taken to >>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>> [This would >>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>> >>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>> not read >>> any such thing. >>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard anything of >>> the sort. If >>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>> direction her >>> parents. >>> >>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>> her >>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>> news material >>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>> implied. >>> >>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>> converted >>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>> >>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>> this >>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>> the more. The >>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>> they lack >>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>> but not to >>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>> context, then >>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>> >>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>> medicine >>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>> one time in >>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>> treatment of any >>> kind.] >>> >>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with the >>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>> >>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>> any >>> principle. >>> >>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>> had to >>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with lies. The >>> media >>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>> another speech >>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>> would do >>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience without >>> regard to >>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to back >>> in their >>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>> also did >>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people were >>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>> another level to >>> the spin of lies. >>> >>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system as an >>> adult! >>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>> article >>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>> >>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>> name for >>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>> >>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>> postings: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>> >>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>> CONSISTENT >>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>> change >>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>> women like >>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>> >>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against socialized >>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>> seeking medical >>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted socialized >>> medicine. >>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>> DOESN'T >>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>> >>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>> before it >>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>> and >>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>> Canada only >>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>> factors, I >>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>> they? >>> >>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>> Whitehorse, >>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>> >>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's making >>> from >>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to hire >>> helicopter >>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very same >>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>> the air during >>> her hunting expeditions! >>> >>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>> you have >>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>> party >>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>> treatments when you >>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>> person and >>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>> medicine. >>> >>> Holly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse Canada or >>> Juneau >>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>> doctors. It >>> would >>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>> and what >>> you need to see a doctor for. >>> >>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>> Skagway are a >>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>> accessible by >>> ferry. >>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>> >>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>> BEFORE Canada >>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada went to >>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>> >>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>> lies. >>> Check your facts. >>> >>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you have a >>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>> Hillsboro? >>> >>> The Grouch >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>> >>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>> before >>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>> Juneau. >>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>> >>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>> like the >>> >>> "internet" statement, heh? >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Raises questions like >>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>> lived in. >>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may have a >>> Doctor >>> that >>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is permitting. >>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>> closest >>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>> the >>> nearest >>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take her to >>> Canada. >>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>> the U.S. >>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>> about her >>> life >>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>> up not >>> far >>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>> >>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>> good >>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>> having to >>> travel >>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>> something else. >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Fri Mar 12 00:14:44 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:14:44 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Message-ID: <9acc7.347d1cd0.38cb51f4@aol.com> Why not see what the other people are saying including some the radical. Often there are shreds of truth mixed in. You just have to discern the truth. View many sources of information and find the common truths. Walt, do you blindly accept what the mainstream news tells you? If you do, I have pity for you. [But as Don is showing - it is another point of view.] I am willing to read what the Left , the Right, the radical, the conspirators, etc. has to say - but doesn't mean I agree with what they say. It is worth knowing what others are thinking. Each posting probably has something worthwhile - some more than others The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 1:45:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW On Mar 11, 2010, at 7:16 PM, donkelly wrote: > Both are human and have their faults, but there is another side not > often spoken of. > > http://godcountryusa.ning.com/forum/topics/obama-openly-rules? > xg_source=msg_forum_disc&xgs=1 > > don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Fri Mar 12 07:33:44 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:33:44 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! In-Reply-To: <7a7aa.7216c4f5.38cb2b13@aol.com> Message-ID: I apologize. This next to last sentence (the one you wrote and I retyped) should say >> I believe they are fairly apparent when you come -to- them. No. I did not mean that to should be written -to-. I meant that I wanted readers to notice that to was the word I was adding. I don't know any other way to indicate that well in this basic format. I did change a few of your words to make it a statement about speaking rather than writing. But other than that, I did not put words in your mouth. I copied the words that came from your fingers. And, just as you asked forgiveness for your errors, I now ask you to forgive me for my error. A person cannot have it both ways. Kristy =========================================================== On 3/11/10 11:28 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > No ! - and you made mistakes while attempting to put words in my mouth. > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hannah at teleport.com writes: > > Hi G... > It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what you > were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little "typo"...we > all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. > Kristy > > > On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: > >> I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >> in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before >> presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right - >> please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when > you >> come them. I tried to correct some of them. > >>> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >>> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because > of >>> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting > the >>> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip > over the >>> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I > tried to >>> correct some of them below. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 08:00:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:00:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. We know that you know what we are talking about. When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 08:44:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1939166328.13785571268412271372.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> A Freudian slip perhaps? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:40:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs And another. Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his inaugural speech: "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? Adam Jeff Howden wrote: >> From: Jamsm at aol.com >> >> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >> As it happened in Portland. >> >> How many states do we have ? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >> >> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >> > > Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all said > boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from the video > that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 down to the > number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty and then the > seven after a long pause. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 09:11:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:11:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <9acc7.347d1cd0.38cb51f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <1631525858.13798291268413885602.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Here too. It goes like this: Listen to the word, compare the word to the action, document if necessary, decide the truth of the word. This process leaves little room for maybe....though facts can be viewed differently. Good example is we think we have a good case. We have documented our case. The judge looks it over and does not agree. The judge decides by case law, in most cases, but even judges make mistakes. That is why appeals often work. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:14:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Why not see what the other people are saying including some the radical. Often there are shreds of truth mixed in. You just have to discern the truth. View many sources of information and find the common truths. Walt, do you blindly accept what the mainstream news tells you? If you do, I have pity for you. [But as Don is showing - it is another point of view.] I am willing to read what the Left , the Right, the radical, the conspirators, etc. has to say - but doesn't mean I agree with what they say. It is worth knowing what others are thinking. Each posting probably has something worthwhile - some more than others The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 1:45:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 12 09:22:08 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:22:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <65D0FBCD-CDF5-41B1-8632-FE93492DF7A0@teleport.com> On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Depends on definition and context. Do you mean you think the > president favors Muslims over Americans. I believe the answer is > YES, because he said so in his book, and later on live TV. > > don Twaddle. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Howden > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:23:30 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Don, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. >> >> Coincidence? >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Already asked and answered, but seemingly ignored: > > "What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you > actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? > > The simplest answer is usually the correct answer." > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 09:32:18 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <1616356568.2428697.1268415138252.JavaMail.brainiac@v0101-06.clearspring.local> The number for today is "41".... http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email39&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 13:04:07 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:04:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine tooth comb? What does that say about him then? Walt Wentz wrote: > Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? > I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama > on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya > practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his mouth. > . > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Walt, >> >> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending >> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It should be >> the same for both. >> >> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would notice at >>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he >>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. >>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >>>> have >>>> said anything either, right? >>>> >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And another. >>>>>> >>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>> >>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>>>> right? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>> administration? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>>>>> the video >>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>> down >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 13:04:07 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:04:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine tooth comb? What does that say about him then? Walt Wentz wrote: > Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? > I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama > on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya > practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his mouth. > . > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> Walt, >> >> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending >> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It should be >> the same for both. >> >> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would notice at >>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he >>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. >>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >>>> have >>>> said anything either, right? >>>> >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And another. >>>>>> >>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>> >>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>>>> right? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" Factor, >>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>> administration? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious from >>>>>>> the video >>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>> down >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 13:13:13 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:13:13 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> Message-ID: My folks like to use an old expression that goes like this: If we had some eggs, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some ham. Does this imply we have ham and eggs? > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." This does not imply we are a Muslim nation either. It merely states a large number of muslims live in the US. I am highly amused when you take this quote... > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." ...and use it to mean a) that we Are a Muslim country and simultaneously criticize him for saying we are not a Christian nation. If the same sentence that says we are not a Christian nation is some thing to criticize him for, but when that same sentence says we are not a Muslim nation, you claim it implies that he is saying we are a Muslim nation. Why doesn't the same sentence imply that we are a Christian nation? You can not have the same sentence argue two different conclusions. In fact, the United States has never been a Christian nation. The founding fathers explicitly stated our great country was to be neutral with respect to religion. Katie On Mar 12, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggest viewing what he says in all the links. I am sure different > people > will interpret what he is saying differently than others. But I > suggest that > you not take any one speech by itself but look at what he tends to > imply > with his various statements. He uses 'Facts' mixed with opinions, > thus some > will never see (hear) the truth of his beliefs. He is very good at > disguising what he believes. > > Walt, I have already posted several videos showing Obama lying - > there are > many more on YouTube., > Guess you just don't like hearing the truth and like to see the world > through your rose colored glasses. > > Obama is smart enough to know that neither an atheist nor a Muslim > would > ever be elected President of the United States. > > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." > [Got tired of trying to include all of his stutters ah-hem,etc.] > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The > U.S. is far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though > some are no > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people > in recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it > wasn't. > > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." > > 3) quote: > "We are NO longer a Christian nation." > > Quote 3 implies he believes the U.S. was once a Christian nation. > When > did this change? > > Between him implying himself to be Muslim (this video was posted > here > previously) though he claims to be Christian. [political suicide > to admit > Muslim faith or even atheist faith] he shows his Muslim > preference. Care to > 'bow' very low to the leading Muslim - he must have FORGOT who he is > supposed to be, The President. I can get that video too - it is > on YouTube. > > > > Is Obama a Christian or something else - Atheist? Muslim? > > View these: > > Title: Barack Obama: We Are Not A Christian Nation! > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related) > > Be sure to listen to his words at the very end of this video. > The video > shows the Left view of Obama's statements. But ends with Obama > making a > huge concession about the U.S. > Title: Barack Obama Mocks And Makes Fun Of The Bible?No Christian > Would Do > This > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related) > > > Is Obama atheist? > Closes with Obama asking for a moment of silence for Darwin. > Title:Obama An Atheist? > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related) > > Title: Is Obama a closet atheist? {more of a speech which was > provided > above} > > > > > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related) > > > > AND to end with a funny well crafted video of "Obama's Muslim > Faith" LOL > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related) > > Hope you enjoyed the videos > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. > Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to > Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and > pacifists. > He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. > Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and > starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. > He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and > he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > >> Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and >> heard it. > > Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only > what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > >> The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said >> last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, >> changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is >> with. > > Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient > Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up > some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the > business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of > Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us > into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a > "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean > carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change > colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist > Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to > match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and > that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of > course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social > skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody > else. >> >> One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a >> thousand more lies just like that. > > Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've > heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of > Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even > have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political > move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to > take political risks, which is another welcome change. >> >> No one could make that up. > > Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? > WW >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> The sources???? >>> Him on live TV. >> >> Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and >> unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they >> were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because >> they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they >> identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been >> documented and codified for public research? In short, are you >> willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already >> overheated debate? >> WW >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> >>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>>> no experience. >>>> >>>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >>>> from >>>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >>> >>> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him >>> to, >>> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >>> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >>> WW >>>> >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Holly T. >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, >>>> you >>>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>>> Check mate! >>>> >>>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>>> >>>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so >>>> caustic >>>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the >>>> following >>>> on Fox News: >>>> >>>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>>> light >>>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>>> we're >>>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>>> first >>>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>>> that >>>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. >>>> 1, 2008 >>>> >>>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>>> >>>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential >>>> material. >>>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to >>>> think >>>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>>> >>>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>>> sound very principled to me. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>>> and will >>>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>>> You are >>>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>>> >>>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>>> PARENTS >>>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>>> medicine, to >>>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>>> converted to >>>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>>> Canada's medical >>>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>>> regard to >>>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>>> 'lack of >>>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>>> >>>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >>>> '84; >>>> thus, I >>>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >>>> boy >>>> does >>>> time fly.) >>>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>>> Alaska while >>>> an infant. >>>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>>> national >>>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>>> taken to >>>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>>> [This would >>>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>>> >>>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>>> not read >>>> any such thing. >>>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard >>>> anything of >>>> the sort. If >>>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>>> direction her >>>> parents. >>>> >>>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>>> her >>>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>>> news material >>>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>>> implied. >>>> >>>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>>> converted >>>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>>> >>>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>>> this >>>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>>> the more. The >>>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>>> they lack >>>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>>> but not to >>>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>>> context, then >>>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>>> >>>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>>> medicine >>>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>>> one time in >>>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>>> treatment of any >>>> kind.] >>>> >>>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with >>>> the >>>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>>> >>>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>>> any >>>> principle. >>>> >>>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>>> had to >>>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with >>>> lies. The >>>> media >>>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>>> another speech >>>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>>> would do >>>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >>>> without >>>> regard to >>>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >>>> back >>>> in their >>>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>>> also did >>>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >>>> were >>>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>>> another level to >>>> the spin of lies. >>>> >>>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system >>>> as an >>>> adult! >>>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>>> article >>>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>>> >>>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>>> name for >>>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>>> >>>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>>> postings: >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>>> >>>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>>> CONSISTENT >>>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>>> change >>>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>>> women like >>>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>>> >>>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >>>> socialized >>>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>>> seeking medical >>>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >>>> socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>>> DOESN'T >>>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>>> >>>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>>> before it >>>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>>> and >>>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>>> Canada only >>>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>>> factors, I >>>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>>> they? >>>> >>>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>>> Whitehorse, >>>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>>> >>>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >>>> making >>>> from >>>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to >>>> hire >>>> helicopter >>>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very >>>> same >>>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>>> the air during >>>> her hunting expeditions! >>>> >>>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>>> you have >>>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>>> party >>>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>>> treatments when you >>>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>>> person and >>>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse >>>> Canada or >>>> Juneau >>>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>>> doctors. It >>>> would >>>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>>> and what >>>> you need to see a doctor for. >>>> >>>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>>> Skagway are a >>>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>>> accessible by >>>> ferry. >>>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>>> >>>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>>> BEFORE Canada >>>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada >>>> went to >>>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>>> >>>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>>> lies. >>>> Check your facts. >>>> >>>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >>>> have a >>>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>>> Hillsboro? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard >>>> Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>>> before >>>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>>> Juneau. >>>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>>> >>>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>>> like the >>>> >>>> "internet" statement, heh? >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Raises questions like >>>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>>> lived in. >>>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may >>>> have a >>>> Doctor >>>> that >>>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >>>> permitting. >>>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>>> closest >>>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>>> the >>>> nearest >>>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take >>>>> her to >>>> Canada. >>>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>>> the U.S. >>>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>>> about her >>>> life >>>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>>> up not >>>> far >>>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>>> >>>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>>> good >>>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>>> having to >>>> travel >>>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>>> something else. >>>>> >>>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 14:18:07 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:18:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <209619982.13681081268377773083.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <209619982.13681081268377773083.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Barack Obama earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Columbia University. No one has seen his masters thesis because he did not get a masters degree. It was a bachelors degree and you don't write a masters thesis for a bachelors. He then went on to Harvard to get a law degree. Those are JD degrees and are not considered masters degrees either. Why didn't he write a masters thesis then? Because you don't write a masters thesis to get a JD. The whole missing masters thesis is a red herring. Fun to throw around as a conspiracy theory but baseless as an issue. It is not 'apparent' that he visited Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion either. Manning claims he went to Afghanistan but I can't find any references to Obama saying he went to Afghanistan in 1980. He went to Pakistan in the early '80's where he visited with the family of his room mate. And his mother worked in Pakistan around 1983. So what? http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=38624 He hasn't 'hidden' his trip to Afghanistan. It didn't exist. Just like he didn't 'hide' his masters thesis. What we really should be asking is why Obama is 'hiding' the details of his trip to the moon in the '50's. That really should be investigated because the little green moon men are going to invade us next. And every body knows that Obama is really a closeted martian. Katie On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > Naw, true, but reference is to served in federal congress. That was > under six months. > > Graduated Columbia? > > To earn an advanced degree there one had to draft a theasis and > pass the grade. No one has seen his theasis, so does it even exist? > He couldn't normally graduate without it....could he? > > Another in the extreamly long chain of lost, or unavailable > records. What is the man hiding? And why? > > Reverand Manning thinks he knows the answers. > > Anyway, your dates seem right. He apparently visited Afganistan in > 1980, at about 19 years of age. > > A poor kid, how did he do that? You and I could not have visited > Afganistan in 1980, no American citizen could, not legally anyway. > He said he was in Afganistan in 1980, but never said for how long. > Or precisely why, or how, or what passport he used. > > Questions, Curious > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator > from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? > > I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia > in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > But for under six months. > > BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those > schools, except Occidental of course. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more > people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of > course. > > And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different > colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, > Dick Cheney? > > "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? > > Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. > Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. > > Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor > Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator > > Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years > Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years > > Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. > Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. > Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. > > Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their > Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can > pull it off. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >> no experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >> from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Fri Mar 12 17:36:04 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:36:04 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B991D81.4060708@gmail.com> References: <4B991D81.4060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9AEC04.7000605@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100312/017e2238/attachment-0002.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 19:07:59 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9AEC04.7000605@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1856625695.14033661268449679833.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Not much to say except in a country where everyone is supposed to be treated equally, equal mistakes should elicit equal responses. It's old news, but true we can't have it both ways, or unequally. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:36:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Actually, I don't recall me criticizing Bush for every little error. He had so many big ones that it was more than sufficient for me to be glad to see him and his ilk go!!

bob "don't know 'bout you, but I'm happy to be here" browning
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 3/11/2010 8:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: 
It's the difference between saying this is the 44th time the oath has 
<snip>

My concern is having a double standard.  George Bush was criticized for 
every little error he would make or say.  This is something that I had 
no problem with.  But if you hold Bush to that standard then you must 
hold Obama to the same exact standard.

Adam

From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 19:11:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:11:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <296581564.14034531268449864114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well that is cleared up, but it is a fair question to ask what his grades at Columbia were. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Barack Obama earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Columbia University. No one has seen his masters thesis because he did not get a masters degree. It was a bachelors degree and you don't write a masters thesis for a bachelors. He then went on to Harvard to get a law degree. Those are JD degrees and are not considered masters degrees either. Why didn't he write a masters thesis then? Because you don't write a masters thesis to get a JD. The whole missing masters thesis is a red herring. Fun to throw around as a conspiracy theory but baseless as an issue. It is not 'apparent' that he visited Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion either. Manning claims he went to Afghanistan but I can't find any references to Obama saying he went to Afghanistan in 1980. He went to Pakistan in the early '80's where he visited with the family of his room mate. And his mother worked in Pakistan around 1983. So what? http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=38624 He hasn't 'hidden' his trip to Afghanistan. It didn't exist. Just like he didn't 'hide' his masters thesis. What we really should be asking is why Obama is 'hiding' the details of his trip to the moon in the '50's. That really should be investigated because the little green moon men are going to invade us next. And every body knows that Obama is really a closeted martian. Katie On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > Naw, true, but reference is to served in federal congress. That was > under six months. > > Graduated Columbia? > > To earn an advanced degree there one had to draft a theasis and > pass the grade. No one has seen his theasis, so does it even exist? > He couldn't normally graduate without it....could he? > > Another in the extreamly long chain of lost, or unavailable > records. What is the man hiding? And why? > > Reverand Manning thinks he knows the answers. > > Anyway, your dates seem right. He apparently visited Afganistan in > 1980, at about 19 years of age. > > A poor kid, how did he do that? You and I could not have visited > Afganistan in 1980, no American citizen could, not legally anyway. > He said he was in Afganistan in 1980, but never said for how long. > Or precisely why, or how, or what passport he used. > > Questions, Curious > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator > from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? > > I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia > in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > But for under six months. > > BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those > schools, except Occidental of course. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Steele > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more > people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of > course. > > And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different > colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, > Dick Cheney? > > "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? > > Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. > Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. > > Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor > Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator > > Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years > Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years > > Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. > Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. > Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. > > Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their > Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can > pull it off. > > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >> no experience. >> >> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >> from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 19:13:05 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:13:05 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <1686036428.2504618.1268449985842.JavaMail.brainiac@v0101-06.clearspring.local> The number for today is "41" http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email39&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 19:20:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:20:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1358508280.14036661268450433457.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> BS, they did no such thing, But correct on the muslim christian reference. ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:13:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? My folks like to use an old expression that goes like this: If we had some eggs, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some ham. Does this imply we have ham and eggs? > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." This does not imply we are a Muslim nation either. It merely states a large number of muslims live in the US. I am highly amused when you take this quote... > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." ...and use it to mean a) that we Are a Muslim country and simultaneously criticize him for saying we are not a Christian nation. If the same sentence that says we are not a Christian nation is some thing to criticize him for, but when that same sentence says we are not a Muslim nation, you claim it implies that he is saying we are a Muslim nation. Why doesn't the same sentence imply that we are a Christian nation? You can not have the same sentence argue two different conclusions. In fact, the United States has never been a Christian nation. The founding fathers explicitly stated our great country was to be neutral with respect to religion. Katie On Mar 12, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > Suggest viewing what he says in all the links. I am sure different > people > will interpret what he is saying differently than others. But I > suggest that > you not take any one speech by itself but look at what he tends to > imply > with his various statements. He uses 'Facts' mixed with opinions, > thus some > will never see (hear) the truth of his beliefs. He is very good at > disguising what he believes. > > Walt, I have already posted several videos showing Obama lying - > there are > many more on YouTube., > Guess you just don't like hearing the truth and like to see the world > through your rose colored glasses. > > Obama is smart enough to know that neither an atheist nor a Muslim > would > ever be elected President of the United States. > > Title: Obama says US is a large Muslim Country (implies he thinks > of the > US as a Muslim nation) > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYL7gboYogo) > > As for him calling the US a Muslim nation, he has stated two > things (that > I have found so far) > 1) quote: > "One of the great strengths of the United States. (stutter pause > 'ah') > although I mentioned -ah- we have a very large Christian > population 'we' do > not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation, or a Jewish > nation, or a > Muslim nation. 'We' consider ourselves a nation of citizens." > [Got tired of trying to include all of his stutters ah-hem,etc.] > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The > U.S. is far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though > some are no > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people > in recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it > wasn't. > > 2) quote: > "If you took 'um' the number of Muslim Americans -um- we would be > one of > the largest Muslim countries in the world." > > 3) quote: > "We are NO longer a Christian nation." > > Quote 3 implies he believes the U.S. was once a Christian nation. > When > did this change? > > Between him implying himself to be Muslim (this video was posted > here > previously) though he claims to be Christian. [political suicide > to admit > Muslim faith or even atheist faith] he shows his Muslim > preference. Care to > 'bow' very low to the leading Muslim - he must have FORGOT who he is > supposed to be, The President. I can get that video too - it is > on YouTube. > > > > Is Obama a Christian or something else - Atheist? Muslim? > > View these: > > Title: Barack Obama: We Are Not A Christian Nation! > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0A0DVUCaI&feature=related) > > Be sure to listen to his words at the very end of this video. > The video > shows the Left view of Obama's statements. But ends with Obama > making a > huge concession about the U.S. > Title: Barack Obama Mocks And Makes Fun Of The Bible?No Christian > Would Do > This > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnmS_vULPxw&feature=related) > > > Is Obama atheist? > Closes with Obama asking for a moment of silence for Darwin. > Title:Obama An Atheist? > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY4Eah-J7ts&feature=related) > > Title: Is Obama a closet atheist? {more of a speech which was > provided > above} > > > > > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGbfiEdsGA&feature=related) > > > > AND to end with a funny well crafted video of "Obama's Muslim > Faith" LOL > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related_ > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-T-gShrSYI&feature=related) > > Hope you enjoyed the videos > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > waltw at teleport.com writes: > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:24 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> No, he contradicted himself, over and over. You saw it. > Eh? He said he would withdraw troops from iraq and send more to > Afghanistan, and he did it. This displeasing both chickenhawks and > pacifists. > He said he would work hard to push health care reform, and he did it. > Unfortunately, the Republicans stonewalled in favor of "scrapping and > starting all over..." Maybe in 25 years. > He said he would strive for bipartisanship with the Republicans, and > he did it-- and a fat lot of good he got from it. > >> Everyone who watched him for the past year or so saw it, and >> heard it. > > Yep, they did. Apparently, what each person heard was apparently only > what they wanted to hear-- idealistic proposals, or nefarious lies. > >> The man is a lier and cannot seem to reconcile with what he said >> last month, last year, or yesterday. He is like a camelian, >> changing colors with changes in invironment, being whomever he is >> with. > > Lier? Is that anything like a lyre, a small harp used in ancient > Greece... ? Oh, you mean "liar." Well, if so, he's just picked up > some bad habits from close contact with some of the best liars in the > business, most of them on the Republican side. After eight years of > Bush/Cheney, he's a small-time liar by comparison. He hasn't lied us > into any bloody, senseless wars, for instance. As for his being a > "camelion, changing colors," I'm completely mystified. Maybe you mean > carnelian, a form of colored agate? but carnelian doesn't change > colors. Or if you mean he's a lizard (an improvement over "socialist > Muslim," at any rate) the chameleon does indeed change colors to > match its surroundings. But Obama seems to keep his own color, and > that just drives some people CRAZY! (Present company excepted, of > course). "Being whomever he is with" is just another name for social > skills. They're a nice thing to have, for a head of state. Or anybody > else. >> >> One question. Is America a Muslim Nation? And you can find a >> thousand more lies just like that. > > Er... did he ever say America is a Muslim nation? I believe I've > heard him say something to the effect that America is made up of > Christians, Muslims, Jews and many other faiths. Heck, he may even > have mentioned us humble atheists, although that's a risky political > move in these hysterical times. Granted, Obama does seem willing to > take political risks, which is another welcome change. >> >> No one could make that up. > > Er... May I suggest that perhaps somebody just did? > WW >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:15:18 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 8:38 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> The sources???? >>> Him on live TV. >> >> Oooo-kay, that's just a trifle ambiguous, non-specific and >> unconvincing. Were these lies demonstrated to be lies because they >> were contrasted with demonstrated facts, or were they lies because >> they contradicted your cherished "beliefs" or "feelings?" Were they >> identified as lies by impartial authorities? Have they been >> documented and codified for public research? In short, are you >> willing to provide some light, or only more heat to an already >> overheated debate? >> WW >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:32:45 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>> >>> >>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>>> no experience. >>>> >>>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >>>> from >>>> clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >>> >>> Aw, gee. That's just terrible. Which liars are you comparing him >>> to, >>> and what's your criteria? Your sources? The international liars >>> ranking? Inquiring minds want to know... ;^) >>> WW >>>> >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Holly T. >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:07 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Interesting, G, that you seem be able to defend Ms. Palin so >>>> gallantly (who, by the way, has been filmed time and time again >>>> blatantly butchering facts--everything from foreign policy to >>>> economic issues--due to her laughingly blatent ignorance). But, >>>> you >>>> seem to dose out an astonishingly nasty dose of venom towards me >>>> when I INTENTIONALLY SKEWED ONE FACT just to see how you'd react. >>>> Check mate! >>>> >>>> Maybe I need to skew more facts and act a lot, lot, lot dumber for >>>> you to defend me with the same degree of tolerance as you have >>>> shown Ms. Palin with respect to her fact twistings. >>>> >>>> I don't get it, G. Why defend Ms. Palin -- a person known for her >>>> many, many gaffes (see http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/ >>>> sarahpalin/a/palinisms.htm for starters) -- when you are so >>>> caustic >>>> towards me for one little skew? At least I never said the >>>> following >>>> on Fox News: >>>> >>>> "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the >>>> light >>>> there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, >>>> we're >>>> confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the >>>> first >>>> 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this >>>> economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies >>>> that >>>> we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?" --Sarah Palin, >>>> suggesting we are at war with Iran, FOX News interview, Nov. >>>> 1, 2008 >>>> >>>> I'd like to let bygones be bygones and work towards helping you to >>>> lighten up as Walt so wisely recommended. >>>> >>>> And here's another tip for ya: The lady's not worth the effort it >>>> takes for you to defend her. She'll never be Presidential >>>> material. >>>> No matter how long she has to ramp herself up for the learning >>>> curve. Not in a million years. Not in the time it took for all >>>> those glaciers up in Alaska to form that Sarah Palin seems to >>>> think >>>> can just melt away if we can just drill baby drill. >>>> >>>> Besides, who wants a potential president who didn't even finish >>>> their term as governor of Alaska because they decided to make big >>>> bucks from the lecture circuit and from Fox News? That doesn't >>>> sound very principled to me. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 11:06:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> Holly, are you that dense? You obviously do not know how to read >>>> and will >>>> interpret with blind eyes to the truth. Talk about a 'sheeple'! >>>> You are >>>> extremely consistent in your blind following of the Left! >>>> >>>> Of what I have read, she was taken to Whitehorse as a CHILD! HER >>>> PARENTS >>>> took their family many years ago, prior to Canada's socialized >>>> medicine, to >>>> Whitehorse or Juneau. Not as an adult, nor after Canada >>>> converted to >>>> socialized medicine. I have not read anywhere that she used >>>> Canada's medical >>>> system as an adult! She has not shown lack of principles with >>>> regard to >>>> socialized medical care. {I do not think she has shown any less >>>> 'lack of >>>> principles' than any other politician of today.} >>>> >>>> Canada's Health Care Act passed in 1984 (my research revealed >>>> '84; >>>> thus, I >>>> was off by about 10 years - I had guessed it was around '95 - >>>> boy >>>> does >>>> time fly.) >>>> Palin was born on February 11, 1964 in Idaho and was taken to >>>> Alaska while >>>> an infant. >>>> This, makes her TEN years of age at the time Canada adopted their >>>> national >>>> health care system. Palin's statements were that she had been >>>> taken to >>>> Canada for treatment for maybe 5 (or was it 6) of her early years >>>> [This would >>>> be under the direction of her parents, she was a minor!]. >>>> >>>> Has she been to Whitehorse for medical care as an adult ? I have >>>> not read >>>> any such thing. >>>> Has she been to Canada for medical care since Canada converted to >>>> socialized medicine? Again, I have not read or heard >>>> anything of >>>> the sort. If >>>> she has, it was likely while she was a minor and under the >>>> direction her >>>> parents. >>>> >>>> But you are so Left wing, you can't even accept an analysis that >>>> her >>>> statements are consistent. You are blindly reading left slanted >>>> news material >>>> and adding even more misleading statements to what the left news >>>> implied. >>>> >>>> Where has it been said that she - as an adult and after Canada >>>> converted >>>> to socialized medicine has she used Canadian medical care? >>>> >>>> I personally do not care for her. But when I see lies being spun >>>> this >>>> outlandish - it makes my gut turn and make me distrust them all >>>> the more. The >>>> Left leaning people are very good at this and do it frequently; >>>> they lack >>>> any principle at all. The Republicans also do some of the same, >>>> but not to >>>> the extreme as the Dems - in taking peoples statements out of >>>> context, then >>>> putting some goofy spin to it. >>>> >>>> I suspect you would interpret that I used Canadian socialized >>>> medicine >>>> just because my Father was born a Canadian and I visited Canada >>>> one time in >>>> the mid 90's. [I have never been to Canada for any medical >>>> treatment of any >>>> kind.] >>>> >>>> Palin, as any speaker would, made statements to 'connect' with >>>> the >>>> audience. Her statements were not false or misleading. >>>> >>>> YOUR interpretation of the slanted news report is what is lacking >>>> any >>>> principle. >>>> >>>> If you want to hear lies spoke to a crowd - just look at Clinton >>>> had to >>>> say. He was extremely blatant during his campaigns with >>>> lies. The >>>> media >>>> would show him making a speech to one crowd and follow that with >>>> another speech >>>> to an opposing group with opposite statements as to what he >>>> would do >>>> and/or believed in; he was speaking to and for his audience >>>> without >>>> regard to >>>> any principles. The main stream news would show this back to >>>> back >>>> in their >>>> news reports and the masses never seemed to notice it. Your Obama >>>> also did >>>> the same, but took the lying to a new level. But more people >>>> were >>>> catching on to this when he ran for office, so he had to put yet >>>> another level to >>>> the spin of lies. >>>> >>>> Palin NEVER made statement she used Canada's medical system >>>> as an >>>> adult! >>>> But you keep responding as though she Hasid. Please GO READ the >>>> article >>>> completely with comprehension without bias. >>>> >>>> You are consistently blind and unprincipled to facts; they have a >>>> name for >>>> a woman like YOU and it is not a pretty one! >>>> >>>> Holly - please view this - this is my reaction to most of your >>>> postings: >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 >>>> >>>> May God have mercy on your soul! >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 10:43:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >>>> feralcattamer at yahoo.com writes: >>>> I'll agree with you, Grouch, about one thing: Sarah Palin's >>>> CONSISTENT >>>> alright. She is consistent in her lack of principles that seem to >>>> change >>>> based on what she stands to profit most from. There's a name for >>>> women like >>>> that and it's not a pretty one. >>>> >>>> One would think, based on Ms. Palin's tough talk against >>>> socialized >>>> medicine and socialism in general, that she would have STOPPED >>>> seeking medical >>>> care in Canada the minute that country actually adopted >>>> socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> Just out of a matter of principle! Unless, of course, MS. PALIN >>>> DOESN'T >>>> HAVE PRINCIPLES!!! >>>> >>>> Even IF she and her parents partook of Canada's medical system >>>> before it >>>> became socialized. Even though Whitehorse, Canada might be closer >>>> and >>>> wouldn't require a ferry ride to get to the doctor. And, even if >>>> Canada only >>>> adopted a socialized medical system some 15 years ago. These >>>> factors, I >>>> suspect, wouldn't matter to a truly PRINCIPLED person, now would >>>> they? >>>> >>>> As far as the shorter distance and lack of ferry ride to >>>> Whitehorse, >>>> Canada goes, I ask you this: >>>> >>>> Why would Ms. Palin care about such things? With what she's >>>> making >>>> from >>>> Fox News and the lecture circuit, she could easily afford to >>>> hire >>>> helicopter >>>> pilots to fly her to medical treatments in Juneau. Those very >>>> same >>>> helicopter pilots she has admittedly used to massacre wolves from >>>> the air during >>>> her hunting expeditions! >>>> >>>> Driving to a socialized medical system, no matter how close, when >>>> you have >>>> publicly and repeatedly scorned such systems and you are are a >>>> party >>>> leader, is not the same as driving to Portland for medical >>>> treatments when you >>>> live in Forest Grove. Not the same at all if you're a PRINCIPLED >>>> person and >>>> have portrayed yourself to the world as an enemy to socialized >>>> medicine. >>>> >>>> Holly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: "Jamsm at aol.com" >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 3:26:17 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >>>> >>>> So, Skagway is the town she grew up in. And Whitehorse >>>> Canada or >>>> Juneau >>>> AK are where her parents went took their children to see >>>> doctors. It >>>> would >>>> be a toss as to which place to go to depending on time of year >>>> and what >>>> you need to see a doctor for. >>>> >>>> It all makes sense to me and is consistent. Whitehorse and >>>> Skagway are a >>>> short distance from each other. While Juneau would be >>>> accessible by >>>> ferry. >>>> Check Google Maps! Her statements are consistent. >>>> >>>> Also, she used (as a CHILD) the Canadian medical facilities >>>> BEFORE Canada >>>> went to socialized medical care! Seems to me, that Canada >>>> went to >>>> socialized medical care maybe 15 years ago, more or less? >>>> >>>> The left continues to attempt to spread their misleading spins of >>>> lies. >>>> Check your facts. >>>> >>>> Do you use any of the Portland medical centers although you >>>> have a >>>> 'clinic' in FG (don't want to call it a hospital) and more in >>>> Hillsboro? >>>> >>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In a message dated 3/10/2010 12:31:23 A.M. Eastern Standard >>>> Time, >>>> jo.david at verizon.net writes: >>>> >>>> The story is a story that is played out for the audience that is >>>> before >>>> her. When in Canada, it is Whitehorse. When in Skagway it is >>>> Juneau. >>>> http://www.skagwaynews.com/051107GovPalinvisit.html >>>> >>>> As has been said before. Politicians play to the crowd. A bit >>>> like the >>>> >>>> "internet" statement, heh? >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Raises questions like >>>>> 1) Where there even doctors available in the small town she >>>>> lived in. >>>> Many of the small towns in Alaska have no Doctors or may >>>> have a >>>> Doctor >>>> that >>>> drops by maybe once every few months if the weather is >>>> permitting. >>>>> 2) The article ends with "Palin lived in a remote town near the >>>>> closest >>>> Canadian city, Whitehorse" which implies that it is likely that >>>> the >>>> nearest >>>> large city with a full facility hospital was in Canada. >>>>> 3) The article implies it was her parents' choice to take >>>>> her to >>>> Canada. >>>>> From the article: "The vocal opponent of health-care reform in >>>>> the U.S. >>>> steered largely clear of the topic except to reveal a tidbit >>>> about her >>>> life >>>> growing up not far from Whitehorse. " It was her life growing >>>> up not >>>> far >>>> from Whitehorse, not her kids. >>>>> >>>>> If either of the first two statements are true - it makes very >>>>> good >>>> sense to go to the NEAREST facility for medical care verses >>>> having to >>>> travel >>>> larger distances to a major American facility. >>>>> But I'm sure the 'left' will imply the statement to mean >>>>> something else. >>>>> >>>>> The Grouch >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Mar 12 19:33:10 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:33:10 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] a reminder Message-ID: <25761-4B9B0776-3593@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> The first week of April is Arbor Day in Oregon. So if anyone would like to plant a tree anywhere and for any reason... I have a lot of doug fir volunteers from 2" to 3' I will be happy to donate to the cause. ~A~ {;?) That is my story and I'm stickin' to it. Hoss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100312/3104c07d/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 12 20:09:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:09:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there > were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading > hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? True... I might have "misunderestimated" Dubya... yet if Obama makes mistakes, he makes them in English, and in connected sentences. If not knowing how many men have served as President presents a critical danger to the country, how great a danger is presented by not being able to distinguish between apertures in animal and mineral matter? > > You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as > president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine > tooth comb? What does that say about him then? I dunno... overconfidence in his staff, perhaps? Fatigue? A momentary brainf-rt such as we all experience? Or maybe he was just checking on YOU, personally, to see how you'd react? Talk about a fine-tooth comb... you can be damn sure the RNC's hatchetmen were raking and sifting over his speech with obsessive care, checking every semicolon for possible negative connotations, trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang a hysterical warning of doom on... and if THIS is the best they could come up with, it's pretty damn pitiful... and petty... maybe "pettyful". I know I'm pretty damn tired of it... people who agonize over this minor gaffe (note spelling) should be able to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp dishcloth. > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? >> I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama >> on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya >> practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his >> mouth. >> . >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> Walt, >>> >>> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending >>> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It >>> should be >>> the same for both. >>> >>> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >>> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would >>>> notice at >>>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he >>>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. >>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >>>>> have >>>>> said anything either, right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> And another. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>>>>> right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" >>>>>> Factor, >>>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>>> administration? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Adam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all >>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the video >>>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 21:52:19 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:52:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> Message-ID: <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is perhaps one of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of the American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they believed in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical figure, they did not believe he was divined. I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the Christian "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the following link, but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about it, if the Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think they would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think further, that given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, don't you think they would have created a system of government where the laws of Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, why do you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a division between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted nothing to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion had done to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from happening here. So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so with some proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html peace, jimz On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. is > far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are > no, > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in > recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. > > From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 10:26:56 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:26:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Clean out your medicine cabinet Message-ID: <67496590-D564-4E43-A545-81C32757FE96@verizon.net> Have a few old bottles of expired pills in your medicine cabinet? Today, from 10-2pm at the Hillsboro police station they will collect them and properly dispose of them so the drugs don't get into the fish in our streams or otherwise be a problem in the landfills. The station is at 250 SE 10th. I was astounded at how much stuff was hiding in our cabinets, stuff from when the kids were toddlers and ailments long ago forgotten. I'm almost ashamed to find the most out of date stuff in our cabinets expired in '92, but if this inspires someone else to clean out their medicine cabinet I don't mind saying it. Do it for the fish. Katie From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 13:16:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:16:48 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> Message-ID: <85BB0543-A93F-407C-8F7F-1F232D4D09EC@teleport.com> who is Mortimer Snerd? On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:57 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I really like the concept of having Congress doing the will of "the > People". > > We are a part of the people on Grovenet. Can any member of > Grovenet provide a simple, direct description of what "we" want for > health policy? Or international policy? Or monetary policy? Or > energy policy? Or environmental policy? > > We the people don't agree on what we want, because we are a > collection of unique persons with unique experiences that lead to > unique perspectives on every subject. Congress cannot do "our" > will because they cannot "know" the "unknown". > > In the absence of a clear public mandate for action, they do what > Congress has done since before the Revolution. They work to get > reelected. The assumption is, that the people who get elected are > better representatives of the Public Will than those who cannot > muster a plurality of the votes. > > Every time someone talks of "firing the bastards", they are > repeating that assumption. They are saying that votes for a > candidate ( or against a candidate) represent a vote for everything > that the candidate believes. Either that, or the candidate is > elected to do their job based upon "straw polls" and by following > the "political wind". > > If a legislator is to do their job, they need input from their > constituents, but sometimes the constituents are responding to > political advertising that runs counter to their long term > interests. The legislator may actually read the 50 page bill. The > public hasn't. In that case, how should a legislator act? And > where does the legislator gain information? Personal trips to > visit the impacted site, or through the "advise" of lobbyists? And > as we complain about the lobbyists who attack the legislators, > remember the lobbyists who put all the advertising in front of the > common public. > > So, what do the people really want? > > Who is John Gault anyway? > David > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Jamsm at aol.com wrote: > >> ... >> I would agree that many think of themselves as patriots and mean >> well, but after they have been in office very long their ear gets >> pulled in other directions than what the 'People" would actually >> like them to be doing. >> >> The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 13 10:49:18 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:49:18 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <25758-4B9BDE2E-6988@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100313/e5c78cb8/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 01:24:24 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:24:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C In-Reply-To: <7afe4.b666fca.38cb2fb6@aol.com> References: <7afe4.b666fca.38cb2fb6@aol.com> Message-ID: <636B90EC-0C5A-4E44-93F7-7FF544F3E377@verizon.net> You may be trying to remember testing for "mad cow" disease, tighter automobile pollution standards, same sex marriage, assisted suicide, and medical marijuana. I recall that the federal government got involved in all of those to prevent the states from enacting legislation desired by the citizens of the states. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:48 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > The way that I have observed the Feds to force states to abide to the Feds will is to deny money for various things to get the state to comply. It doesn't always work. Especially, if many states are rebelling; then the Feds will change the rules. Some areas this has been done by the Feds, in more recent times, is in regards to Social Security funding and potentially money for schools. (Not really sure about these examples - brain is tired.) But, the Feds have often used access to Federal funds to get states to comply. Road building, Transportation also come to mind. Seems to me, that there were times the Fed would deny money in one category to get the states to comply in another. > > The Grouch From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 01:17:26 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:17:26 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] "Gaffs" is a gaffe In-Reply-To: <1216621545.13666101268372139725.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1216621545.13666101268372139725.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > My bet is- - -BAD BET. > > Meanwhile, Who wrote this? > > Share this discussion with your friends, neighbors, co-workers, relatives, church congregation members, and other peers. Anybody who you don't think will turn you in to the Obama administration for sedition against his highness, the Crown Prince of America, Barack Hussein Obama. donkelly? Peter Pan? > > > Sorry about the sarcasm there. I just get disgusted by worship of deeply flawed personalities, such as the current occupant of the White House, as well as FDR, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Chairman Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, etc. You left out Ronald Reagan. > > > The flagrant violations of our constitution during the previous three administrations were bad enough. Our Founding Fathers would have been horrified that such things happened in America. But the current administration really takes the cake. Definitely not the sole enemy of the Constitution and the Freedom of the American People, but far and away the worst this century I guess it was written to criticize Andrew Jackson. Am I close? > > It wasn't me who wrote this, or Beck, or Palin, or Limbaugh, it wasn't even a republican who wrote it. > > Whomever wrote it certainly is not blind, though he/she might have a blind spot or two. It is a bit hard to believe that it was written in this century, since we only have two administrations. And the first one violated the Constitutional protections on search warrants, quick trial, bail, facing accusers, and the like. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 00:56:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:56:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1973447831.13363581268329105150.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I suppose the count depends upon your criteria for calling a country "muslim". If you are strictly using the count of people in the country that espouse the faith of Mohammed, then there are about thirty-six countries with greater numbers of muslims than we have. And about one-hundred and seventy-six with smaller populations of muslims. Hmm? If we had been number forty-four in the count of muslims, THAT would explain President Obama's mistake when he said "FORTY-FOUR Americans have now taken the presidential oath." Wait! Obama is trying to MAKE us a Muslim nation. That can't be, he should have said, "Now Thirty-six countries have a muslim leader." Why did he say "forty-four"? So now I'm really confused. Is he trying to make us LESS of a muslim country, so we can move up to forty-three, or is he intent on keeping us where we are? This is SO hurting my simple brain. BTW, if you are counting countries with 50 or more percent muslims as "muslim countries" there are 54. If you are counting more than 50 percent there are 48. Unless you are using different estimations or different years. Since your source can pick and choose, there may be one that actually is 57. By the data I see, to have 57 muslim nations you would need to include ones with as little as 36% muslim population. Of course, Libya and Turkey are usually counted as muslim countries because the population is predominately muslim, but their governments are anything but fundamentalist islamic governments. As I think of it, Iraq was about as harsh a critic of the fundamentalist theocratic form of government that existed at the time, and look how it was treated by our government. We overthrew it, so that the Iranian clerics could strengthen their power base. So, who was pushing to increase the power of the mullahs? David muslim populations and percentages at http://www.islamicpopulation.com/Ocenia/oceania_general.html On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:38 AM, donkelly wrote: > I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. > > Coincidence? > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 00:17:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 00:17:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CCC7B00-F018-40E8-9ADD-8C7E9A41DB55@verizon.net> Since this has gone on so long, allow me to throw another log on the fire. Chester Alan Arthur may have been born in Lower Canada ( Quebec ). So, we must fault Obama for not specifying that, "Forty-two Americans, one Canadian, and Grover Cleveland/Grover Cleveland have now taken the presidential oath" Wait! Hold the phone. The naturalized presidents weren't born Americans, they were born British. He should have said, "Thirty-four Americans, eight British-Americans, Grover Cleveland, Grover Cleveland, and maybe one Canadian have now taken the presidential oath." I just doesn't have the same ring to it. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > And another. > > Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his inaugural speech: > > "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." > > Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? > > Adam From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 09:11:25 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:11:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <9acc7.347d1cd0.38cb51f4@aol.com> Message-ID: <1631525858.13798291268413885602.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Here too. It goes like this: Listen to the word, compare the word to the action, document if necessary, decide the truth of the word. This process leaves little room for maybe....though facts can be viewed differently. Good example is we think we have a good case. We have documented our case. The judge looks it over and does not agree. The judge decides by case law, in most cases, but even judges make mistakes. That is why appeals often work. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jamsm at aol.com To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:14:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Why not see what the other people are saying including some the radical. Often there are shreds of truth mixed in. You just have to discern the truth. View many sources of information and find the common truths. Walt, do you blindly accept what the mainstream news tells you? If you do, I have pity for you. [But as Don is showing - it is another point of view.] I am willing to read what the Left , the Right, the radical, the conspirators, etc. has to say - but doesn't mean I agree with what they say. It is worth knowing what others are thinking. Each posting probably has something worthwhile - some more than others The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 1:45:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltw at teleport.com writes: Oh, cawmawn! This is an authoritative source? Say, if this is where you get all your information, I've got some beachfront property in Florida I'd like to sell you... Just Ignore all that hooey about ocean levels rising, this would be the perfect spot to built your dream home... WW From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 12 09:21:34 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:21:34 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a stand against Obama C In-Reply-To: <396946678.13669461268373246739.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <396946678.13669461268373246739.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20263257-70EB-447A-BD50-7EB63C97FBDC@teleport.com> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:54 PM, donkelly wrote: > Palin in Alaska told them to shove it, Alaska did not need > government tax money. Still, lack of government subsidies for mail > delivery, subsidies for heating, especially in bush Alaska, badly > hurt the natives. > > don Yep! Screw the public, so long as she could make political brownie points with the base. WW > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamsm at aol.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:48:38 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a > stand against Obama C > > The way that I have observed the Feds to force states to abide to > the Feds > will is to deny money for various things to get the state to > comply. It > doesn't always work. Especially, if many states are rebelling; > then the > Feds will change the rules. Some areas this has been done by the > Feds, in > more recent times, is in regards to Social Security funding and > potentially > money for schools. (Not really sure about these examples - brain is > tired.) But, the Feds have often used access to Federal funds to > get states to > comply. Road building, Transportation also come to mind. Seems > to me, > that there were times the Fed would deny money in one category to > get the > states to comply in another. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ocollaugh at comcast.net writes: > > That is another thing I am kept aware of, nullification at the state > level. Last I heard, several other states are debating whether to > also do this. > > I'm not that up on local health care, but doesn't Oregon have it's > own > health care in place already? > > If so, can the fed unilaterally over ride state law? > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jamsm at aol.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:59:45 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Atleast one state apperas to be taking a > stand > against Obama C... > > Found a better 'copy' of the news that is coming out of > Virginia today. > > http://ifawebnews.com/2010/03/11/virginia-first-state-in-nation-to- > pass-anti > -mandate-health-reform-bill/ > > > [By the way, I stumbled upon this news while searching "VA health > care" > as > in Veterans.] > > I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) > in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch > because of > spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before > posting the > message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please > skip over > the > errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. > I tried > to > correct some of them below. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 11:36:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > Jamsm at aol.com writes: > Apparently, Virginia has recently started to take steps to send > a strong > message to DC. > Among some the laws looking to be made law in VA is Tort reform and > Health > Care Freedom. > >> From what I can tell, the Freedom Health Care bill specifically >> blocks > certain aspects of Obama Care from being forced upon the > Virginians. > Specifically, no Virginian shall be required to have health care > insurance nor can they be > fined or jailed for not having health insurance! I understand > there > are > more than 3 > variants of this bill between the Virginia House and Senate. > > One of the first links I came upon regarding this story pointed at > MSNBC, > but that link took me to MSNBC's 'home' page with no related story > (pulled or story is too new?). > I would imagine the Obama machine would not want more states > following > suit and have to contend many states with laws passed > nullifying and > blocking aspects of the Obama Care. > > Wouldn't it be funny that, while Obama tries to force his Obama > Care > through at the federal level, that a significant number of > states end > around him > with state laws effectively nullifying his plan. Come on states > - join > in > and pass laws that can effectively block Obama Care! Or at > least create > a > new level of problems for them to deal with. Just how much > authority > should or does the Federal Government have over the states? In > recent > years, the > Federal Government has been telling the states what to do more > and more > - > maybe this will be the beginning of the states rebelling. > > search: Virginia Health Care > or Virginia Health Care Freedom > > http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/josheboch/health-care-freedom-bill- > passes-v > a-house > > The Grouch > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Mar 12 09:22:08 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:22:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1944928573.13678051268376353810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <65D0FBCD-CDF5-41B1-8632-FE93492DF7A0@teleport.com> On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:45 PM, donkelly wrote: > Depends on definition and context. Do you mean you think the > president favors Muslims over Americans. I believe the answer is > YES, because he said so in his book, and later on live TV. > > don Twaddle. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Howden > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:23:30 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Don, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: donkelly >> >> I believe, correct if wrong, there are 57 muslim countries. >> >> Coincidence? >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > Already asked and answered, but seemingly ignored: > > "What you're implying is absolutely ridiculous. Do you > actually buy in to that uber-conspiracy nonsense? > > The simplest answer is usually the correct answer." > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 09:35:57 2010 From: chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net (Julie Larson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:35:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> Racism this week, homophobia last week; sometimes Grovenet is just like some gruesome car wreck I can't look away from. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. We know that you know what we are talking about. When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Fri Mar 12 09:32:18 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <1616356568.2428697.1268415138252.JavaMail.brainiac@v0101-06.clearspring.local> The number for today is "41".... http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email39&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Mar 12 10:00:52 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:00:52 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10067-4B9A8154-5422@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - TGIF :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html/friday.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100312/ddec4baf/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Fri Mar 12 10:44:06 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:44:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! In-Reply-To: References: <7a7aa.7216c4f5.38cb2b13@aol.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D552336B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Kristy...use brackets when inserting words not in the original text. Standard procedure. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Kristy Gravlin Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:34 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! I apologize. This next to last sentence (the one you wrote and I retyped) should say >> I believe they are fairly apparent when you come -to- them. No. I did not mean that to should be written -to-. I meant that I wanted readers to notice that to was the word I was adding. I don't know any other way to indicate that well in this basic format. I did change a few of your words to make it a statement about speaking rather than writing. But other than that, I did not put words in your mouth. I copied the words that came from your fingers. And, just as you asked forgiveness for your errors, I now ask you to forgive me for my error. A person cannot have it both ways. Kristy =========================================================== On 3/11/10 11:28 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > No ! - and you made mistakes while attempting to put words in my mouth. > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hannah at teleport.com writes: > > Hi G... > It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what you > were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little "typo"...we > all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. > Kristy > > > On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: > >> I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >> in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before >> presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right - >> please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when > you >> come them. I tried to correct some of them. > >>> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >>> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because > of >>> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting > the >>> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip > over the >>> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I > tried to >>> correct some of them below. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri Mar 12 11:06:08 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:06:08 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Costa Rica Message-ID: <000601cac217$12d84480$3888cd80$@net> Here is an article on the Limbaugh comment. Some actual facts. http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100311/wl_csm/286856 "Of course, if Limbaugh decided to move to or buy real estate in Costa Rica, he wouldn't be the first celebrity. His neighbors might include actor Mel Gibson, model Gisele Bundchen, AOL executive Steve Case, or Vice President Joe Biden's brother, Frank." From Jamsm at aol.com Fri Mar 12 12:01:14 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:01:14 EST Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Message-ID: <159d0.18cb1e96.38cbf78a@aol.com> Ya, I jumped the gun. I Apologize :) This is a sjirt sample of my unretuoched typng today with oe hand. At one time could toucvh type woith two hands so fast tI would outpace t he computer - I could bve as much as two limes ahead. If I made atypo bsckthen I could havee the cortrection made before the errore showed omn screen. Iused to refer to the highspeeed typng as thinking with my fingers as I did not have to thonk about how Iwas tryping but only my thought. Meaning as i wrtow code I code analyze the problen give a slight thought toi what I needed typed and then would procedd thinking about the nect aspect of the code as my fingers did what they were supoosed to do. I was doing the problem solving while I typoed. You don;t think about how tro speak you just do ity. Corrected and expanded. This is a short sample of my un-retouched typing today with one hand I no longer have the full use of my right hand. At one time, I could touch type with two hands so fast I would outpace the computer. I could be as much as two or more complete lines ahead. If I made a typo, there would be a delay before my mind would register it (not actually thinking about it), then I could backspace to make the corrections before the errors showed on screen. [Spell check and auto complete were not available. One would see the curser move to the right, then left, back right, then left, then right at various times as I made corrections; jittering back and forth at times.] After I stopped typing, a number of seconds could pass as the screen (computer) caught up to where I was at. I used to refer to my high speed typing as "thinking with my fingers." I should have called it "speaking with my fingers" as I did not have to think about the typing. Meaning, as I wrote code, I could analyze the problem, give a slight thought to what I needed to type and then would proceed thinking about the next aspect of the code as my fingers did what they were supposed to do. I was doing the problem solving while I typed and my fingers were typing as you would speak. (You don't stop to think about how to speak; you think about what and how you want to say something.) This was performed while I was typing in 'C' code with bizarre function and variable names and odd formatting structure of the language or commands to UNIX with the often complex syntax of the command line with the various complex commands' options. [If any of you are interested to see what programming code looks like I can point you at some on the net. HTML is somewhat similar but often is not formatted like we would, for readability, while writing C or C++.] I could also write (print with my right hand) notes while I typed. Albeit, I typed much slower then. My problem, with typing one handed, today is that I try to type faster than I should one handed - I am not taking notes thus I inherently try to type faster. Today, I find that I can think about a sentence or paragraph to type; but after typing it, in addition to all the typos, I will find that I also left out complete words and sometimes complete sentence fragments (or sentences.) I have very bad short term memory problems. Try typing one handed, after a little practice of using home, for your left hand only, placed in the middle of the keyboard you may also learn the one handed typing technique. I suspect typing with the right hand only would be much harder to do, as many words (and the most frequently used letters) are typed with the keys on the left of a 'qwerty' keyboard. Better, try preparing food, eating, etc. or try going a whole day with the use of one hand (less dominate) to see how you do. [Of course, you would not be dealing with all the chest and back pain that I also have.] Not meaning this as a sob story. I am just letting you know a little about what I deal with. The Grouch In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:56:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hannah at teleport.com writes: I apologize. This next to last sentence (the one you wrote and I retyped) should say >> I believe they are fairly apparent when you come -to- them. No. I did not mean that to should be written -to-. I meant that I wanted readers to notice that to was the word I was adding. I don't know any other way to indicate that well in this basic format. I did change a few of your words to make it a statement about speaking rather than writing. But other than that, I did not put words in your mouth. I copied the words that came from your fingers. And, just as you asked forgiveness for your errors, I now ask you to forgive me for my error. A person cannot have it both ways. Kristy =========================================================== On 3/11/10 11:28 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > No ! - and you made mistakes while attempting to put words in my mouth. > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hannah at teleport.com writes: > > Hi G... > It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what you > were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little "typo"...we > all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. > Kristy > > > On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: > >> I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >> in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before >> presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right - >> please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when > you >> come them. I tried to correct some of them. > >>> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I > meant) >>> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because > of >>> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting > the >>> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip > over the >>> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I > tried to >>> correct some of them below. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 13 13:03:32 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House In-Reply-To: oldredwagon@verizon.net's message of Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:32:18 -0500 Message-ID: <25763-4B9BFDA4-3636@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Good Day "RED" Todays number of 41 is subject to change, give or take at any minute, you now that politicians are good at giving and taking just to suit themselves. ~A~ {;?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100313/6d74478e/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:11:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:11:01 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1856625695.14033661268449679833.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1856625695.14033661268449679833.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <68E5C0C3-E628-4404-AA3D-A1228D5D456F@teleport.com> But are they "equal mistakes?" for sheer volume and amplitude, the Dubya wins hands down. Anyone trying to make an amusing book out of Obama's gaffes (note spelling) would have a long wait. On Mar 12, 2010, at 7:07 PM, donkelly wrote: > Not much to say except in a country where everyone is supposed to > be treated equally, equal mistakes should elicit equal responses. > It's old news, but true we can't have it both ways, or unequally. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Browning > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:36:04 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't recall me criticizing Bush > for every > little error. He had so many big ones that it was more than sufficient > for me to be glad to see him and his ilk go!!
>
> bob "don't know 'bout you, but I'm happy to be > here" browning
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> On 3/11/2010 8:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >
> 
It's the difference between saying this is the 44th time  
> the oath has
> <snip>
>
> My concern is having a double standard.  George Bush was criticized  
> for
> every little error he would make or say.  This is something that I had
> no problem with.  But if you hold Bush to that standard then you must
> hold Obama to the same exact standard.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:15:22 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:15:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yep! Added to which is the fact that Jews and Catholics had a significant presence in this country by the time of the Revolution, and in fact played a part in it. On Mar 12, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is > perhaps one > of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of > the > American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our > founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they > believed > in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian > bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical > figure, they > did not believe he was divined. > > I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the > Christian > "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the > following link, > but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. > > In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about > it, if the > Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think > they > would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think > further, that > given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, > don't you > think they would have created a system of government where the laws of > Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians > (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, > why do > you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a > division > between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted > nothing > to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion > had done > to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from > happening > here. > > So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so > with some > proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. > > http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html > > peace, > jimz > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > >> >> What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian >> values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The >> U.S. is >> far >> more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though >> some are >> no, >> longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in >> recent >> years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it >> wasn't. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:18:23 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:18:23 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D552336B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Mike. Will try to remember that. On 3/12/10 12:44 PM, "Steele, Mike" wrote: > Kristy...use brackets when inserting words not in the original text. Standard > procedure. > > --Mike From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:19:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:19:24 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <296581564.14034531268449864114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <296581564.14034531268449864114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <9C81081A-5E5C-4483-9602-38A077A62E78@teleport.com> Obviously his grades were good enough to become a professor on the Constitution, and eventually to win the Presidency... ;^) By the way, did Dubya ever write a Master's thesis? I'd give a purty to read it... If he did it all by himself, it'd be a howl a minute... On Mar 12, 2010, at 7:11 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well that is cleared up, but it is a fair question to ask what his > grades at Columbia were. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Katie Allnutt > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:18:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > Barack Obama earned a bachelor's degree in political science from > Columbia University. > No one has seen his masters thesis because he did not get a masters > degree. It was a bachelors degree and you don't write a masters > thesis for a bachelors. > > He then went on to Harvard to get a law degree. Those are JD degrees > and are not considered masters degrees either. > Why didn't he write a masters thesis then? Because you don't write a > masters thesis to get a JD. > > The whole missing masters thesis is a red herring. Fun to throw > around as a conspiracy theory but baseless as an issue. > > It is not 'apparent' that he visited Afghanistan during the Soviet > invasion either. Manning claims he went to Afghanistan but I can't > find any references to Obama saying he went to Afghanistan in 1980. > He went to Pakistan in the early '80's where he visited with the > family of his room mate. And his mother worked in Pakistan around > 1983. So what? > http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=38624 > He hasn't 'hidden' his trip to Afghanistan. It didn't exist. Just > like he didn't 'hide' his masters thesis. > > > What we really should be asking is why Obama is 'hiding' the details > of his trip to the moon in the '50's. That really should be > investigated because the little green moon men are going to invade us > next. And every body knows that Obama is really a closeted martian. > > Katie > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:09 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Naw, true, but reference is to served in federal congress. That was >> under six months. >> >> Graduated Columbia? >> >> To earn an advanced degree there one had to draft a theasis and >> pass the grade. No one has seen his theasis, so does it even exist? >> He couldn't normally graduate without it....could he? >> >> Another in the extreamly long chain of lost, or unavailable >> records. What is the man hiding? And why? >> >> Reverand Manning thinks he knows the answers. >> >> Anyway, your dates seem right. He apparently visited Afganistan in >> 1980, at about 19 years of age. >> >> A poor kid, how did he do that? You and I could not have visited >> Afganistan in 1980, no American citizen could, not legally anyway. >> He said he was in Afganistan in 1980, but never said for how long. >> Or precisely why, or how, or what passport he used. >> >> Questions, Curious >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Steele >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:59:55 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Six months? Not clear. Wikipedia shows him as a state senator >> from 1997-2004. Is that the reference? >> >> I also see Occidental College in 1979-81, graduation from Columbia >> in 1983, right on schedule, having been born in 1961. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:41 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> But for under six months. >> >> BTW, a C average would not normally get you into any of those >> schools, except Occidental of course. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mike Steele >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:28:18 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Ohhh, BTW, when Obama was a state senator, he represented more >> people than the entire population of Alaska, including Wasilla, of >> course. >> >> And he didn't have to fish around in quite so many different >> colleges to be able to find one that would manage to "graduate" him. >> >> --Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:05 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? >> >> Do you really put Obama above such liars as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, >> Dick Cheney? >> >> "no qualifications and no experience" What, compared to Gov. Palin? >> >> Palin - state Gov. 2.5 years before quitting amid a scandal. >> Obama - U.S. Senator 3 years before quitting to become President. >> >> Palin - Mayor Wasilla - 6 years before becoming Governor >> Obama - state Senator - 6 years before becoming U.S. Senator >> >> Palin - Wasilla City Council - 4 years >> Obama - attorney and College Professor - 12 years >> >> Oh, wait, this might be the kicker. >> Palin - Alaska Oil and Gas Commission - 11 months, before quitting. >> Obama - President of the U.S. - 1 year 3 months, and still at work. >> >> Of course, having the Republicans run Gov. Palin as their >> Presidential candidate in 2012 would be a good move, if the DNC can >> pull it off. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:51 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I think we have the same problem with Obama, no qualifications and >>> no experience. >>> >>> Bull dozers can go forward and can go in reverse. Obama is far >>> from clean, and also one of the best liars I have ever seen. >>> >>> don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:27:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:27:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Costa Rica In-Reply-To: <000601cac217$12d84480$3888cd80$@net> References: <000601cac217$12d84480$3888cd80$@net> Message-ID: <53691137-60EF-4CAC-8E85-80711298D080@teleport.com> Actually, the most telling part of the article is the tacit acknowledgment that Limbaugh is very wealthy, thus able to afford the "Cadillac" treatment. And the readers' comments below the story are more interesting than the story itself. On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Steven wrote: > Here is an article on the Limbaugh comment. Some actual facts. > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100311/wl_csm/286856 > > "Of course, if Limbaugh decided to move to or buy real estate in > Costa Rica, > he wouldn't be the first celebrity. His neighbors might include > actor Mel > Gibson, model Gisele Bundchen, AOL executive Steve Case, or Vice > President > Joe Biden's brother, Frank." > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:39:53 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:39:53 -0600 Subject: [Grovenet] Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! Mea Culpa! In-Reply-To: <159d0.18cb1e96.38cbf78a@aol.com> Message-ID: Apology accepted. I never have been a fast typist...but, considering that I am self-taught I always thought I did well enough for what I needed. I used to know when I had made a mistake because my brain would suddenly tell me that the last sequence did not feel right in my fingers. But that seems to be going the way of all good things in the last year or so. Now I have to rely upon my eyes...and they don't do the best job either. It is frustrating because I have a reputation (and a self-pride) that I am accurate. When I finish I try to remember to proofread. Still, when I see something I wrote yesterday, I wonder what 'idjit' thought that was the way to spell that word, etc. I do type one handed once in a while -- MAJOR slow down! Fortunately it is not because one isn't working...it is either because I am trying to place hold with one hand so that I copy difficult material correctly (lots of numbers, for example). But more likely it is because I am eating lunch with my left hand while my right one types. I find that my right one can do the task much more successfully than my left because, I think, it is just stronger, and more dominant. I did at one time teach myself to print with my left hand. It was not lovely (I used to print well too) but it was legible and as good as a lot of folks. It is handy to be able to use both hands. Little brother is the ambidextrous one in the family. He has always used that skill for both playing baseball and for bowling. He bats based upon where the fielders are standing so that he is hitting to their weak places. Not bad for a fellow of 65! Well, enough. Hopefully I haven't made too many typos here. (Or spelling errors...that spell checker can make one's brain get very lazy about doing the skill right.) Remind yourself that it is OK not to type like the wind. We will never know on this end...and you won't have to fix as many things. That would be a big plus to me...maybe to you too. Kristy On 3/12/10 2:01 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > Ya, I jumped the gun. I Apologize :) > > This is a sjirt sample of my unretuoched typng today with oe hand. > At one time could toucvh type woith two hands so fast tI would outpace t > he computer - I could bve as much as two limes ahead. If I made atypo > bsckthen I could havee the cortrection made before the errore showed omn > screen. > Iused to refer to the highspeeed typng as thinking with my fingers as I > did not have to thonk about how Iwas tryping but only my thought. Meaning as > i wrtow code I code analyze the problen give a slight thought toi what I > needed typed and then would procedd thinking about the nect aspect of the > code as my fingers did what they were supoosed to do. I was doing the > problem solving while I typoed. You don;t think about how tro speak you just > do ity. > > Corrected and expanded. > > > This is a short sample of my un-retouched typing today with one hand I > no longer have the full use of my right hand. > At one time, I could touch type with two hands so fast I would outpace the > computer. I could be as much as two or more complete lines ahead. If I > made a typo, there would be a delay before my mind would register it (not > actually thinking about it), then I could backspace to make the corrections > before the errors showed on screen. [Spell check and auto complete were not > available. One would see the curser move to the right, then left, back > right, then left, then right at various times as I made corrections; > jittering back and forth at times.] After I stopped typing, a number of > seconds > could pass as the screen (computer) caught up to where I was at. I used to > refer to my high speed typing as "thinking with my fingers." I should have > called it "speaking with my fingers" as I did not have to think about the > typing. Meaning, as I wrote code, I could analyze the problem, give a slight > thought to what I needed to type and then would proceed thinking about the > next aspect of the code as my fingers did what they were supposed to do. I > was doing the problem solving while I typed and my fingers were typing as > you would speak. (You don't stop to think about how to speak; you think > about what and how you want to say something.) This was performed while I > was > typing in 'C' code with bizarre function and variable names and odd > formatting structure of the language or commands to UNIX with the often > complex > syntax of the command line with the various complex commands' options. [If > any of you are interested to see what programming code looks like I can > point you at some on the net. HTML is somewhat similar but often is not > formatted like we would, for readability, while writing C or C++.] I could > also write (print with my right hand) notes while I typed. Albeit, I typed > much slower then. My problem, with typing one handed, today is that I try > to type faster than I should one handed - I am not taking notes thus I > inherently try to type faster. > > > Today, I find that I can think about a sentence or paragraph to type; but > after typing it, in addition to all the typos, I will find that I also left > out complete words and sometimes complete sentence fragments (or > sentences.) I have very bad short term memory problems. > > Try typing one handed, after a little practice of using home, for your left > hand only, placed in the middle of the keyboard you may also learn the > one handed typing technique. I suspect typing with the right hand only > would be much harder to do, as many words (and the most frequently used > letters) are typed with the keys on the left of a 'qwerty' keyboard. > Better, try > preparing food, eating, etc. or try going a whole day with the use of one > hand (less dominate) to see how you do. [Of course, you would not be > dealing with all the chest and back pain that I also have.] > > Not meaning this as a sob story. I am just letting you know a little about > what I deal with. > > The Grouch > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:56:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hannah at teleport.com writes: > > I apologize. This next to last sentence (the one you wrote and I retyped) > should say >>> I believe they are fairly apparent when you come -to- them. > > No. I did not mean that to should be written -to-. > I meant that I wanted readers to notice that to was the word I was adding. > I don't know any other way to indicate that well in this basic format. > > I did change a few of your words to make it a statement about speaking > rather than writing. But other than that, I did not put words in your > mouth. > I copied the words that came from your fingers. > And, just as you asked forgiveness for your errors, I now ask you to > forgive > me for my error. > > A person cannot have it both ways. > Kristy > > =========================================================== > On 3/11/10 11:28 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote: > >> No ! - and you made mistakes while attempting to put words in my mouth. >> The Grouch >> >> >> In a message dated 3/12/2010 12:12:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> hannah at teleport.com writes: >> >> Hi G... >> It's late in my day, perhaps I wasn't reading carefully...is this what > you >> were saying? Of course I would be happy to forgive you a little > "typo"...we >> all make mistakes. And I know you will forgive others in your turn. >> Kristy >> >> >> On 3/11/10 10:59 PM, "Jamsm at aol.com" wrote almost this: >> >>> I noticed a few errors (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I >> meant) >>> in one of my speeches on this subject. I failed to catch them before >>> presenting the message. If you hear something that doesn't sound right > - >>> please skip over the errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when >> you >>> come them. I tried to correct some of them. >> >>>> I noticed a few typos (wrong words/bad grammer/did not say what I >> meant) >>>> in the first post on this subject - below. I failed to catch because >> of >>>> spell checking and not doing a thorough enough review before posting >> the >>>> message. If you see something that doesn't look right - please skip >> over the >>>> errors. I believe they are fairly apparent when you come them. I >> tried to >>>> correct some of them below. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 18:48:06 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:48:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27E5789A240E4AE79324FEFAEDF3B262@EdsPortable> It says that he is human! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Mayer" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as > president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine > tooth comb? What does that say about him then? From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 18:58:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:58:02 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> Message-ID: Sorry if I delete whole threads unread sometimes; it is just too exasperating to be offered "proof" on something, and then be directed to some looney rant by some --er-- enthusiast who is obviously missing a few face cards from his deck. My days are a bit too full to spend time chasing smoke around the blogosphere. In my days in the U of O, way back in the Stone Age, a schizophrenic lived in my neighborhood. I never actually met him, because he only came out at night, to fasten his strident manifestoes to telephone poles. It seems he felt a compulsion to share his hallucinatory revelations with all humanity, but could not communicate face to face; so he painstakingly typed out his dire warnings with a faded typewriter ribbon, and many overstrikings and scribblings-out, and illustrated them with crude ball-point drawings. Those handmade posters made fascinating reading. I may even have saved one of the better ones somewhere-- it described invisible, triangular parasites called "souls," that plastered themselves over a victim's eyes and mouth, and then controlled his thoughts and words. A helpful series of drawings illustrated the process. Interesting, as noted. But was I inspired to go out and create an anti-"soul"" mask to keep the pesky little varmints off me? Did I rent time on the local radio station to read the warning on the air? Did I demand to be flown to Washington to confer with the President? No, not so's you'd notice. So when somebody begins a rant with a loud and emphatic recitation of tired and long-debunked lies, I tend to discount his testimony by about 97 percent, and to harbor sincere doubts about the number of cards in his deck. The difference, these days, is that the schizos, the delusional and the fanatics no longer have to peck out their manifestoes in single copies, and pin them up where only a few will ever see them... Now they have the Internet. On Mar 12, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Julie Larson wrote: > Racism this week, homophobia last week; sometimes Grovenet is just > like some > gruesome car wreck I can't look away from. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. > > Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually > members of the organized muslim coalition. > > I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy > up on us. > We know that you know what we are talking about. > > When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you > question it? > > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? > h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 > a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 19:27:25 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:27:25 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on GroveNet? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. > > Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. > > I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. > We know that you know what we are talking about. > > When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? > > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 19:45:40 2010 From: chopwoodcarrywater at verizon.net (Julie Larson) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:45:40 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <00b701cac328$d15dbd10$74193730$@net> I just googled that term and it came up with that horrific image that is supposed to be the President as the joker but always look more like a minstrel show performer to me. The ignorance and hatred in this country and on grovenet makes me ashamed. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on GroveNet? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. > > Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. > > I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. > We know that you know what we are talking about. > > When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? > > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 13 20:20:42 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:20:42 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] this is a MUST READ In-Reply-To: "Julie Larson" 's message of Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:45:40 -0800 Message-ID: <25760-4B9C641A-5783@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Geri.. this might answer your question..... http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/bylaws.html Geri asked...MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on GroveNet? ??Geri From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 13 20:26:01 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:26:01 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] another must read Message-ID: <25763-4B9C6559-4003@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I'll even bet that hardly anyone even knew this existed. http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/mission.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Mar 13 20:29:17 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:29:17 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids Message-ID: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:01:20 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:01:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids In-Reply-To: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Learn something new every day. On a good day, it is something different from what I learned yesterday. Old timers disease. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:03:22 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:03:22 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <9D87D2533B7B4ED08A170EAE20CACE9B@EdsPortable> Someone dropped the ball with this one! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan AKA Hoss" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 8:29 PM Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids > http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:07:11 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:07:11 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <9D87D2533B7B4ED08A170EAE20CACE9B@EdsPortable> Message-ID: Well, some of it works. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Davie" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids > Someone dropped the ball with this one! > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan AKA Hoss" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 8:29 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] one for the grove net kids > > >> http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:11:30 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:11:30 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <4B98FE8D.6020008@gmail.com> References: <4ac15.75acfee9.38c9da84@aol.com> <7609910C-C33F-4998-9E44-83F4769A4525@verizon.net> <40EAF7D2-9E6E-4501-8CBD-1FFBD817E03D@teleport.com> <4B98FE8D.6020008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17FE4802-A31A-47C0-9358-A344256E2A28@verizon.net> Shrug. On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:30 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > 1.John Galt > 2. Hugh Akston ran the roadside diner > 3. The cigarettes that Dagny Taggart tried to buy could only be bought > with gold. From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:27:00 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:27:00 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> Message-ID: <734CAE4D-2F6F-4230-B7FD-E2CCC620DA07@verizon.net> Gee, I was afraid that no one read them. But, I am feeling much better now. Would you like to hear me sing? "Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer do, I'm half crazy ..." "I'm Sorry" Dave On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > ... > In my days in the U of O, way back in the Stone Age, a schizophrenic lived in my neighborhood. I never actually met him, because he only came out at night, to fasten his strident manifestoes to telephone poles. It seems he felt a compulsion to share his hallucinatory revelations with all humanity, but could not communicate face to face; so he painstakingly typed out his dire warnings with a faded typewriter ribbon, and many overstrikings and scribblings-out, and illustrated them with crude ball-point drawings. From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:41:06 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:41:06 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Three for the price of one. In-Reply-To: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> Is any body else getting random grovenet posts in triplicate or is it just me. For the last two days I have been getting my own posts three times and seemingly random other grovenet posts three times. It only happens with grovenet posts and then only some of them. Should I start typing out my complaint on old typewriters and posting them on telephone polls? Katie From feralcattamer at yahoo.com Sat Mar 13 21:41:55 2010 From: feralcattamer at yahoo.com (Holly T.) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:41:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <878220.37919.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thankf for fharing, Jim. Perhapf the reafon why fo many Chriftianf think that America waf founded by thofe of their faith if becaufe they have fo much trouble breaking the code. Thofe Deiftf were juft too darn fmart for them! Holly ________________________________ From: Jim Zaleski To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:52:19 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is perhaps one of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of the American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they believed in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical figure, they did not believe he was divined. I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the Christian "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the following link, but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about it, if the Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think they would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think further, that given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, don't you think they would have created a system of government where the laws of Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, why do you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a division between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted nothing to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion had done to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from happening here. So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so with some proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html peace, jimz On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. is > far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are > no, > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in > recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:47:33 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:47:33 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Undoing the harm In-Reply-To: <001201cac12b$1f4d6200$5de82600$@net> References: <1834184370.13226911268291109019.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001201cac12b$1f4d6200$5de82600$@net> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Steven wrote: >> When the insurance company denies a claim based upon "pre-existing condition", and the patient has to fight them to get the coverage that they are due, is that fraud? > > [I say:] The ability to shop for new insurance would sure help. Don't get it tied to employment. One of the questions on an insurance application form, typically, is, "have you ever been denied coverage?" and "do you have pre-existing conditions?" When the insurance underwriter reviews the answers, you may not have the ability to "shop for new insurance". >> When the insurance contract requires that the doctor charge more for cash patients, is that fraud? >> > [I say:] Sounds bad. Never heard of this practice. Usually doctors will take a discount for cash. Ask your doctor what the insurance will actually pay for some routine visit, and then ask if you can pay less than the insurance will pay, if you pay cash. Conditions may vary, but I understand that the major health insurance companies require the doctor to give them the lowest price. Lower than your cash discounted price. Even though the doctor will wait for the insurance payment, and the doctor has the overhead of the insurance paperwork. > >> When a person gives birth to a baby with defects ... > [I say:] What cost is too great to care for them? Children born with severe physical defects will either live and die with them, or have medical treatment to remedy or mitigate the defects. For example, children born to drug users may have serious problems, and the parents have no insurance. Who should pay for the health care? Or if that seems too extreme, who should pay the pre-natal and birth expenses for unwed teenage mothers? From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 21:59:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:59:07 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> Message-ID: <9D75C9C0-CF4B-4E10-A8BE-EBE9087C3BD2@teleport.com> On Mar 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Geri wrote: > MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here > on GroveNet? > > Geri > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "donkelly" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > >> Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. >> >> Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are >> actually members of the organized muslim coalition. I don't know, actually. But I'll defer to David's superior researching ability in that department, as he seems to have answered that question already. And the appropriate response to THAT is, "does it matter?" Some of those nations are large and wealthy, some small and rat-poor; some are laid back and moderate, others rabidly fanatical. Is there any reason for us to ascribe the character of the latter nations to all the rest of them? >> >> I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy >> up on us. What, am I obligated to be an amusing little cuss 24-7, for the benefit of a few insomniacs? I am approaching the age where time begins to feel like a precious commodity, Life is real, life is earnest, and the keyboard is not its goal. I do, believe it or not, actually have other things to do than hang breathless over the monitor, waiting for something to nitpick and argue over. Which is more satisfying, to craft stained-glass windows that, with care and a bit of luck, will last a century or more? Or engage in schoolboy bickering over nonsense that should have been forgotten last year? >> We know that you know what we are talking about. >> >> When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you >> question it? Why "Jobama?" I must assume this is some sort of pun that seemed screamingly funny down at the RNC. A reference to the suffering o9f Job, perhaps? But Job was afflicted with boils, not bigots. >> >> http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? >> h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567 >> D6FA749C49D0B6B2 Alabama... seems an appropriate place for this silly and mindless obsession to end up... And the obvious answer is, of course, "right where it's always been... in the appropriate file cabinet in Hawaii." >> >> don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 21:58:57 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:58:57 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Three for the price of one. In-Reply-To: <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> Message-ID: <086C68B6-B833-46A4-A367-90B5D7847C94@verizon.net> Yes, I was traveling, and I thought that was the reason. Good. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > Is any body else getting random grovenet posts in triplicate or is it > just me. > > For the last two days I have been getting my own posts three times > and seemingly random other grovenet posts three times. It only > happens with grovenet posts and then only some of them. > > Should I start typing out my complaint on old typewriters and posting > them on telephone polls? > > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 22:02:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <734CAE4D-2F6F-4230-B7FD-E2CCC620DA07@verizon.net> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> <734CAE4D-2F6F-4230-B7FD-E2CCC620DA07@verizon.net> Message-ID: Dave: Would you like to collaborate on a book of your poster revelations? In these strange times, it would be a best-seller! Walt On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:27 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Gee, I was afraid that no one read them. > > > But, I am feeling much better now. > > Would you like to hear me sing? > > "Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer do, I'm half crazy ..." > > "I'm Sorry" Dave > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> ... >> In my days in the U of O, way back in the Stone Age, a >> schizophrenic lived in my neighborhood. I never actually met him, >> because he only came out at night, to fasten his strident >> manifestoes to telephone poles. It seems he felt a compulsion to >> share his hallucinatory revelations with all humanity, but could >> not communicate face to face; so he painstakingly typed out his >> dire warnings with a faded typewriter ribbon, and many >> overstrikings and scribblings-out, and illustrated them with crude >> ball-point drawings. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 22:05:09 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:05:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Three for the price of one. In-Reply-To: <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> Message-ID: <26D41116-64D0-4C2D-82A1-28866F1F23F6@teleport.com> On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > Is any body else getting random grovenet posts in triplicate or is it > just me. > > For the last two days I have been getting my own posts three times > and seemingly random other grovenet posts three times. It only > happens with grovenet posts and then only some of them. > > Should I start typing out my complaint on old typewriters and posting > them on telephone polls? Well if you do, watch out for the giant green vampire bats that lurk on top of the poles... they feel the vibrations of the hammer, and strike silently from behind... :^) Walt > > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Mar 13 22:09:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:09:28 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] another must read In-Reply-To: <25763-4B9C6559-4003@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25763-4B9C6559-4003@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000E013D-9E2F-4F73-AA56-7BCD017347B2@teleport.com> Well, i sure didn't... On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > I'll even bet that hardly anyone even knew this existed. > > http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/mission.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 22:13:20 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:13:20 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Clean out your medicine cabinet In-Reply-To: <67496590-D564-4E43-A545-81C32757FE96@verizon.net> References: <67496590-D564-4E43-A545-81C32757FE96@verizon.net> Message-ID: <25EB931EEBC442FABA36F33F64753245@JeffVAIO> I wish I would have seen this earlier. How did you hear about this? Any chance we would ever have a drive like this in FG? Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:26 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: [Grovenet] Clean out your medicine cabinet > Have a few old bottles of expired pills in your medicine cabinet? > Today, from 10-2pm at the Hillsboro police station they will collect > them and properly dispose of them so the drugs don't get into the > fish in our streams or otherwise be a problem in the landfills. > > The station is at 250 SE 10th. > > I was astounded at how much stuff was hiding in our cabinets, stuff > from when the kids were toddlers and ailments long ago forgotten. I'm > almost ashamed to find the most out of date stuff in our cabinets > expired in '92, but if this inspires someone else to clean out their > medicine cabinet I don't mind saying it. > > > Do it for the fish. > > Katie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 22:09:19 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:09:19 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <9D75C9C0-CF4B-4E10-A8BE-EBE9087C3BD2@teleport.com> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> <9D75C9C0-CF4B-4E10-A8BE-EBE9087C3BD2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <3C80A437-75E2-40A9-990D-27EF0CB6B1D9@verizon.net> All of the various offered birth certificates agree on the birth date, the birth mother and the birth father. Those three pieces of information are sufficient to demonstrate the eligibility of Barack Obama Jr. to be elected president. Birth location is immaterial. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? >>> h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567 >>> D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > Alabama... seems an appropriate place for this silly and mindless > obsession to end up... > And the obvious answer is, of course, "right where it's always > been... in the appropriate file cabinet in Hawaii." From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 22:12:56 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:12:56 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> <734CAE4D-2F6F-4230-B7FD-E2CCC620DA07@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C38574E-2E9F-4A8F-89F9-F5B0AEFDB529@verizon.net> LOL. If they were a best-seller, it certainly would qualify as "strange times". David On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Dave: > Would you like to collaborate on a book of your poster revelations? > In these strange times, it would be a best-seller! > Walt From allnutt at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 22:21:09 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:21:09 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Clean out your medicine cabinet In-Reply-To: <25EB931EEBC442FABA36F33F64753245@JeffVAIO> References: <67496590-D564-4E43-A545-81C32757FE96@verizon.net> <25EB931EEBC442FABA36F33F64753245@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <0B3268DA-B862-4DAF-8E5B-6C7207412C12@verizon.net> I read about it in a letter to the editor in the Hillsboro Argus. (I only got around to reading it today or I would have sent out an email earlier.) But the good news is when we took our stuff in, they said they were going to try to do this on an annual basis. So, hopefully it will be a more regular thing. And iff people know it will be coming regularly they may be willing to postpone flushing stuff down the toilet. Call the FG dept and see if they are interested. Katie On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I wish I would have seen this earlier. How did you hear about > this? Any > chance we would ever have a drive like this in FG? > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:26 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: [Grovenet] Clean out your medicine cabinet > >> Have a few old bottles of expired pills in your medicine cabinet? >> Today, from 10-2pm at the Hillsboro police station they will collect >> them and properly dispose of them so the drugs don't get into the >> fish in our streams or otherwise be a problem in the landfills. >> >> The station is at 250 SE 10th. >> >> I was astounded at how much stuff was hiding in our cabinets, stuff >> from when the kids were toddlers and ailments long ago forgotten. I'm >> almost ashamed to find the most out of date stuff in our cabinets >> expired in '92, but if this inspires someone else to clean out their >> medicine cabinet I don't mind saying it. >> >> >> Do it for the fish. >> >> Katie >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 22:31:55 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:31:55 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> References: <7e8c1.27bbc15a.38cac4cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <7D7AB118-E3F6-40B8-BD99-EAB682C126C3@verizon.net> Okay, finally got it to run. Obama has maintained his Christian faith. The Republican surrogates were attacking Obama for "his Muslim faith". So, any discussion would be about both his Christian faith and the claim by others that he has a Muslim faith. You can pull that from the conversation if you wish, or you could listen to more than the 18 seconds that was provided. The longer version is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I He did not accidentally "admit" to anything. He addressed the charge that his religion was Muslim. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:12 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > My Muslim Faith > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related_ From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 23:14:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:14:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7D7AB118-E3F6-40B8-BD99-EAB682C126C3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <258056711.14320431268550872888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> This is a well stated personal opinion David. Thank you. On the other hand, how do we reconcile what he said in his book with what he is saying now? Did he lie in his book, or did he tell the truth? He stated at one time that as a child he attended a Medrassa School, and later a Catholic School. And on the registration form to enroll in school, either he or his step father Sotero, signed off that his faith was Islam. The the Muslim faith holds that a Muslim cannot convert to another religion. That is considered a grave sin in Muslim law, and a person who violates that law is an Infidel, and subject to beheading. Obviously he was not beheaded, so how do we reconcile this information? Or do we just ignore it and let it go? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:31:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Okay, finally got it to run. Obama has maintained his Christian faith. The Republican surrogates were attacking Obama for "his Muslim faith". So, any discussion would be about both his Christian faith and the claim by others that he has a Muslim faith. You can pull that from the conversation if you wish, or you could listen to more than the 18 seconds that was provided. The longer version is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I He did not accidentally "admit" to anything. He addressed the charge that his religion was Muslim. David On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:12 PM, jamsm at aol.com wrote: > ... > My Muslim Faith > _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGMQ5DpVVTM&feature=related_ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 23:27:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:27:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <3C80A437-75E2-40A9-990D-27EF0CB6B1D9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <454419779.14320901268551621310.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> David, have you seen a birth certificate for Jobama? If so, you are the only person I know who has seen a copy of his birth certificate. Many people have tried to get it, even filed lawsuits to get it, still no birth certificate. And please do not overlook the fact that his father was not a natural born citizen, in fact not a citizen at all. Should we just ignore all of this stuff? Are we to assume he sealed all of his past records for innocent reasons? Are you not the least suspicious that Jobama is deliberately, and very expensively, hiding something? I really and honestly, and objectively, see a prima facia case of fraud. What do you think is the reason for sealing records? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:09:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs All of the various offered birth certificates agree on the birth date, the birth mother and the birth father. Those three pieces of information are sufficient to demonstrate the eligibility of Barack Obama Jr. to be elected president. Birth location is immaterial. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? >>> h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567 >>> D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > Alabama... seems an appropriate place for this silly and mindless > obsession to end up... > And the obvious answer is, of course, "right where it's always > been... in the appropriate file cabinet in Hawaii." _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 23:40:21 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:40:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] another must read In-Reply-To: <000E013D-9E2F-4F73-AA56-7BCD017347B2@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1669234290.14321621268552421671.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Known it for about ten years now. This is very local. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:09:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] another must read Well, i sure didn't... On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > I'll even bet that hardly anyone even knew this existed. > > http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/mission.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 23:51:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:51:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1953939047.14322201268553115848.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What's the ending of the story Walt? Did he go on to become Governor of Oregon or something like that, perhaps a famous college professor? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:02:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Dave: Would you like to collaborate on a book of your poster revelations? In these strange times, it would be a best-seller! Walt On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:27 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Gee, I was afraid that no one read them. > > > But, I am feeling much better now. > > Would you like to hear me sing? > > "Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer do, I'm half crazy ..." > > "I'm Sorry" Dave > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> ... >> In my days in the U of O, way back in the Stone Age, a >> schizophrenic lived in my neighborhood. I never actually met him, >> because he only came out at night, to fasten his strident >> manifestoes to telephone poles. It seems he felt a compulsion to >> share his hallucinatory revelations with all humanity, but could >> not communicate face to face; so he painstakingly typed out his >> dire warnings with a faded typewriter ribbon, and many >> overstrikings and scribblings-out, and illustrated them with crude >> ball-point drawings. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 00:05:49 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:05:49 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <454419779.14320901268551621310.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <454419779.14320901268551621310.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I don't know anyone named Jobama. Who do you reference? I was referencing the qualifications to become President. And I was referring Barack Obama. I have seen three distinct versions posted on the web. All there share a common birth date, a common mother's name and a common father's name. If you have a favorite, tell me what it says and we can start from there. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > David, have you seen a birth certificate for Jobama? If so, you are the only person I know who has seen a copy of his birth certificate. > Many people have tried to get it, even filed lawsuits to get it, still no birth certificate. > > And please do not overlook the fact that his father was not a natural born citizen, in fact not a citizen at all. > > Should we just ignore all of this stuff? Are we to assume he sealed all of his past records for innocent reasons? Are you not the least suspicious that Jobama is deliberately, and very expensively, hiding something? > > I really and honestly, and objectively, see a prima facia case of fraud. > What do you think is the reason for sealing records? > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 00:14:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:14:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news organization. If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and the courts it seems. No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his birth certificate. Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a million light years from a certified birth certificate. Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:05:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I don't know anyone named Jobama. Who do you reference? I was referencing the qualifications to become President. And I was referring Barack Obama. I have seen three distinct versions posted on the web. All there share a common birth date, a common mother's name and a common father's name. If you have a favorite, tell me what it says and we can start from there. David On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > David, have you seen a birth certificate for Jobama? If so, you are the only person I know who has seen a copy of his birth certificate. > Many people have tried to get it, even filed lawsuits to get it, still no birth certificate. > > And please do not overlook the fact that his father was not a natural born citizen, in fact not a citizen at all. > > Should we just ignore all of this stuff? Are we to assume he sealed all of his past records for innocent reasons? Are you not the least suspicious that Jobama is deliberately, and very expensively, hiding something? > > I really and honestly, and objectively, see a prima facia case of fraud. > What do you think is the reason for sealing records? > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 00:20:38 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:20:38 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <258056711.14320431268550872888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <258056711.14320431268550872888.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3596C305-2933-4014-AAFA-724275A9B898@verizon.net> I don't have copies of the books. If anyone wants to reference them, the text would be helpful. And I hope it would be in context. When we discussed Palin and Canadian medicine, I did not charge her with control over where she went for treatment, because she was a minor in the care of her parents. I did charge her for changing the story about her brother's treatment. When we discuss Obama and Indonesian schools, I do not charge him with control over where he went to grade school because he was a minor in the care of his mother. I will charge him for abiding in the religion that he professes. He claims to be a Christian of the "social gospel" variety that takes the charge to improve the lives of others seriously. So, that is the standard. Is he actually trying to improve the lives of others? I have relatives who were entered in school in Oregon under the name of their birth mother's husband, even though they were legally under the name of their birth father, and the law requires that the legal name be used. In the relative's case, it took threat of legal action by the father to force a name correction. Could the same thing happen in Indonesia? I see no reason why not. I have no idea if Stanley Ann Dunham considered herself a Muslim and her son as one. Or, if religion was of no consequence to her and she could put down anything that made life easier for them. She is dead, so we may never know her motivation. If Obama really was a Muslim and he did go to Christianity, then you say he is living under a death sentence. If you happen to know any Roman Catholics who have dropped their faith, then you know someone who is under a worse sentence, they are going to go to Hell. Bad luck for both cases. As an adult Obama chose to be a member of a Christian church. May an adult make a profession of faith and become a Christian? Or must it be ratified by everyone? David On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:14 PM, donkelly wrote: > This is a well stated personal opinion David. > Thank you. > On the other hand, how do we reconcile what he said in his book with what he is saying now? > Did he lie in his book, or did he tell the truth? > He stated at one time that as a child he attended a Medrassa School, and later a Catholic School. And on the registration form to enroll in school, either he or his step father Sotero, signed off that his faith was Islam. > The the Muslim faith holds that a Muslim cannot convert to another religion. > That is considered a grave sin in Muslim law, and a person who violates that law is an Infidel, and subject to beheading. > Obviously he was not beheaded, so how do we reconcile this information? > Or do we just ignore it and let it go? > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 00:45:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:45:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <00b701cac328$d15dbd10$74193730$@net> Message-ID: <1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> That Joker thing is despicable, but has been distributed around the world. I'm sure of two things about this group: 1. No one here had anything to do with that cartoon. 2. No one here has discussed, that I have heard, the color of anyone's skin, or more generally, racism. I don't read every post so I'm sure I missed that one. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie Larson To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:45:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I just googled that term and it came up with that horrific image that is supposed to be the President as the joker but always look more like a minstrel show performer to me. The ignorance and hatred in this country and on grovenet makes me ashamed. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on GroveNet? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. > > Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. > > I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. > We know that you know what we are talking about. > > When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? > > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 01:23:32 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:23:32 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <77CF1E27-EB80-4BEB-A64D-F0FDC26A1337@verizon.net> So, what is the "Jobama" thing that you use? David On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:45 AM, donkelly wrote: > That Joker thing is despicable, but has been distributed around the world. > I'm sure of two things about this group: > 1. No one here had anything to do with that cartoon. > 2. No one here has discussed, that I have heard, the color of anyone's skin, or more generally, racism. I don't read every post so I'm sure I missed that one. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 01:44:23 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 01:44:23 -0800 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Don, Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician because no one is going to carry the original of anything to Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient for you, what is sufficient? If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack Obama eligible to be elected President? We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, mother's maiden name, and father's name. We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. David On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: > Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. > > Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news organization. > > If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and the courts it seems. > > No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his birth certificate. > > Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a million light years from a certified birth certificate. > > Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? > > don From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 04:38:26 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:38:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Three for the price of one. References: <25763-4B9C661D-4009@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <980BD60B-7B9C-495F-A0E3-71113590FF21@verizon.net> Message-ID: <08E1A2906EA94BF398BE8490D1522D71@gerianehzkfhvy> Same here, Katie... triplicates! Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katie Allnutt" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:41 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Three for the price of one. > > Is any body else getting random grovenet posts in triplicate or is it > just me. > > For the last two days I have been getting my own posts three times > and seemingly random other grovenet posts three times. It only > happens with grovenet posts and then only some of them. > > Should I start typing out my complaint on old typewriters and posting > them on telephone polls? > > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 04:46:04 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><76A4727ED35B40D8A418608F07CD207F@gerianehzkfhvy> <00b701cac328$d15dbd10$74193730$@net> Message-ID: <73BF1520B8574DE49C513A86CDF10581@gerianehzkfhvy> I agree, Julie. :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Larson" To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >I just googled that term and it came up with that horrific image that is > supposed to be the President as the joker but always look more like a > minstrel show performer to me. The ignorance and hatred in this country and > on grovenet makes me ashamed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Geri > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on > GroveNet? > > Geri > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "donkelly" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > >> Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. >> >> Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually > members of the organized muslim coalition. >> >> I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on > us. >> We know that you know what we are talking about. >> >> When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? >> >> > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 > a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 >> >> don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 07:27:03 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:27:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com> I'm sorry Walt, I now understand. Anytime George Bush made a mistake it was because he didn't know what he was doing. Anytime Barack Obama makes a mistake it's because: 1) it's his staff's fault, 2) he's tired, 3) someone from the Bush administration is doing it on purpose, 4) he isn't making a mistake just testing us, 5) solar flares, 6) bad weather, 7) and/or the moon men that were mentioned that he is associated with in a post I saw yesterday. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there >> were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading >> hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? >> > > True... I might have "misunderestimated" Dubya... yet if Obama makes > mistakes, he makes them in English, and in connected sentences. > If not knowing how many men have served as President presents a > critical danger to the country, how great a danger is presented by > not being able to distinguish between apertures in animal and mineral > matter? > >> You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as >> president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine >> tooth comb? What does that say about him then? >> > > I dunno... overconfidence in his staff, perhaps? Fatigue? A momentary > brainf-rt such as we all experience? Or maybe he was just checking on > YOU, personally, to see how you'd react? > Talk about a fine-tooth comb... you can be damn sure the RNC's > hatchetmen were raking and sifting over his speech with obsessive > care, checking every semicolon for possible negative connotations, > trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang a hysterical warning of > doom on... and if THIS is the best they could come up with, it's > pretty damn pitiful... and petty... maybe "pettyful". I know I'm > pretty damn tired of it... people who agonize over this minor gaffe > (note spelling) should be able to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a > damp dishcloth. > > >> Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? >>> I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama >>> on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya >>> practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his >>> mouth. >>> . >>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Walt, >>>> >>>> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not defending >>>> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It >>>> should be >>>> the same for both. >>>> >>>> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >>>> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his predecessors? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would >>>>> notice at >>>>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of which he >>>>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were published. >>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody would >>>>>> have >>>>>> said anything either, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And another. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his >>>>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, >>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is enough to >>>>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" >>>>>>> Factor, >>>>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>>>> administration? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Adam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've all >>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the video >>>>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of forty >>>>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 07:34:00 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:34:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <9CCC7B00-F018-40E8-9ADD-8C7E9A41DB55@verizon.net> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <9CCC7B00-F018-40E8-9ADD-8C7E9A41DB55@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B9CF3D8.9090909@gmail.com> Please don't tell me that you are a Chester Arthur birther? ;-) The difference between saying 44 times as opposed to 44 people is significant. Does it mean he should be impeached, no. Does it mean he should be held to a higher standard, yes. President is not something appointed by lottery, you choose to become president. Therefore any mistake you make, no matter how small will be noticed. I didn't disagree with Bush being held to the fire no matter how big or small his errors were. I just believe that Obama must be held to the same standard. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Since this has gone on so long, allow me to throw another log on the fire. > > Chester Alan Arthur may have been born in Lower Canada ( Quebec ). > > So, we must fault Obama for not specifying that, "Forty-two Americans, one Canadian, and Grover Cleveland/Grover Cleveland have now taken the presidential oath" > > Wait! Hold the phone. The naturalized presidents weren't born Americans, they were born British. > > He should have said, "Thirty-four Americans, eight British-Americans, Grover Cleveland, Grover Cleveland, and maybe one Canadian have now taken the presidential oath." > > I just doesn't have the same ring to it. > > David > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> And another. >> >> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake during his inaugural speech: >> >> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >> >> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover Cleveland did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one American, right? >> >> Adam >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 07:47:12 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:47:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> Add to this that if there was proof that President Obama was not born in Hawaii, don't you think Hillary Clinton would have used this during the primaries? If the Clinton's with their all of their money and power couldn't find anything, I think it's pretty safe to say that the matter is closed. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Don, > > Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. > > If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. > > Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. > > The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. > > No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician because no one is going to carry the original of anything to Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient for you, what is sufficient? > > If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". > > You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. > > All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack Obama eligible to be elected President? > > We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, mother's maiden name, and father's name. > > We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. > > David > > > > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: > > >> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. >> >> Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news organization. >> >> If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and the courts it seems. >> >> No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his birth certificate. >> >> Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a million light years from a certified birth certificate. >> >> Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? >> >> don >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 07:51:11 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:51:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Oregonian - Oregon Stimulus Boast Stretches Facts on Job Creation, Retention Message-ID: <4B9CF7DF.8050906@gmail.com> From todays paper. Appears that state may have wasted money that could have gone somewhere else, oh maybe schools, public safety, social services........? http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/03/oregon_stimulus_boast_stretche.html Adam From smithsmith at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 08:05:26 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:05:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] another must read In-Reply-To: <1669234290.14321621268552421671.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <000E013D-9E2F-4F73-AA56-7BCD017347B2@teleport.com> <1669234290.14321621268552421671.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7eaadfd11003140805w216ba09i95e36b8cf0fb96fc@mail.gmail.com> Jim Zaleski did this page years ago. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:40 AM, donkelly wrote: > Known it for about ten years now. This is very local. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:09:28 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] another must read > > Well, i sure didn't... > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Alan AKA Hoss wrote: > > > I'll even bet that hardly anyone even knew this existed. > > > > http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/mission.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 09:00:40 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:00:40 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <00b701cac328$d15dbd10$74193730$@net><1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1143793821-1268582450-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1207405600-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Walt has specifically stated that anyone who disagrees with walt is a racist. -----Original Message----- From: donkelly Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:45:34 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs That Joker thing is despicable, but has been distributed around the world. I'm sure of two things about this group: 1. No one here had anything to do with that cartoon. 2. No one here has discussed, that I have heard, the color of anyone's skin, or more generally, racism. I don't read every post so I'm sure I missed that one. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Julie Larson To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:45:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs I just googled that term and it came up with that horrific image that is supposed to be the President as the joker but always look more like a minstrel show performer to me. The ignorance and hatred in this country and on grovenet makes me ashamed. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Geri Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on GroveNet? Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. > > Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are actually members of the organized muslim coalition. > > I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy up on us. > We know that you know what we are talking about. > > When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you question it? > > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 09:18:15 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:18:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4C38574E-2E9F-4A8F-89F9-F5B0AEFDB529@verizon.net> References: <1212828740.13762561268409627990.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <001801cac20a$79cc8af0$6d65a0d0$@net> <734CAE4D-2F6F-4230-B7FD-E2CCC620DA07@verizon.net> <4C38574E-2E9F-4A8F-89F9-F5B0AEFDB529@verizon.net> Message-ID: I dunno... judging from the plethora of alternate-reality rants on the blogosphere, and even some here on grovenet, a book of poster revelations would meet with a ready-made audience, and even recruit hordes of New Believers... My only worry is that recruitment might add enough to the sum total of human irrationality to send us past some psychic tipping point, and cause the species to slide into an abyss of squalling insanity that would make the St. Vitus' Dance mania look like a Sunday social at the old folks' home... But then again, since when has the threat of disastrous consequences ever deterred a good capitalist from pursuit of the Almighty Buck..? ;^) WW On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:12 PM, David Morelli wrote: > LOL. If they were a best-seller, it certainly would qualify as > "strange times". > > David > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Dave: >> Would you like to collaborate on a book of your poster revelations? >> In these strange times, it would be a best-seller! >> Walt > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 09:35:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:35:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <454419779.14320901268551621310.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <454419779.14320901268551621310.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <092C81D3-E61D-4AB0-BEEB-5CA6DCDFFD09@teleport.com> Don, dear fellow, any person has two parents (except for corporations, which apparently were granted Immaculate Conception personhood by the Supremes). OK, so one parent is the father. Now, who might the other parent be? Think hard... that's right... it's the MOTHER! And what is the nationality of that mother? And what does American law say of a child born to an American mother? I met one local er-- enthusiast during the vigil outside the library, who shoved a Xerox of a copy of a copy of a photograph at me, and declared this "proved" that Obama was born in Indonesia, not Africa or Afghanistan or East Rattbaggistan or any of the other places so far "proven" by other enthusiasts. Does any of this really amount to a f-rt in a hurricane? The Hawaii birth certificates must be genuine because there is no real incentive to fake them. This whole birth certificate brouhaha is just the frantic thrashing of an age-encrusted prejudice that dare not speak its name. However-- I am disgusted to see I have been pulled back into more futile schoolboy bickering over idiocies that should have been long forgotten. The h-ll with it. I've got real things to do today, involving real physical work on real physical objects. WW On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > David, have you seen a birth certificate for Jobama? If so, you are > the only person I know who has seen a copy of his birth certificate. > Many people have tried to get it, even filed lawsuits to get it, > still no birth certificate. > > And please do not overlook the fact that his father was not a > natural born citizen, in fact not a citizen at all. > > Should we just ignore all of this stuff? Are we to assume he sealed > all of his past records for innocent reasons? Are you not the least > suspicious that Jobama is deliberately, and very expensively, > hiding something? > > I really and honestly, and objectively, see a prima facia case of > fraud. > What do you think is the reason for sealing records? > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:09:19 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > All of the various offered birth certificates agree on the birth > date, the birth mother and the birth father. > > Those three pieces of information are sufficient to demonstrate the > eligibility of Barack Obama Jr. to be elected president. > > Birth location is immaterial. > > David > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > >>>> http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? >>>> h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E5 >>>> 67 >>>> D6FA749C49D0B6B2 >> >> Alabama... seems an appropriate place for this silly and mindless >> obsession to end up... >> And the obvious answer is, of course, "right where it's always >> been... in the appropriate file cabinet in Hawaii." > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 09:41:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:41:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1953939047.14322201268553115848.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1953939047.14322201268553115848.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I really don't know, Don. It was just one of those little unsolved mysteries that make life so interesting. Incidentally, my little joking exchange with David about publishing a collection is not so far-fetched-- some years ago in Powell's, I actually saw a book consisting of schizo poster rants that somebody had collected from various places. The fact it was on the remainder shelf back then means nothing... the world seems much crazier and more receptive now. WW On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:51 PM, donkelly wrote: > What's the ending of the story Walt? > Did he go on to become Governor of Oregon or something like that, > perhaps a famous college professor? > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:02:49 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Dave: > Would you like to collaborate on a book of your poster revelations? > In these strange times, it would be a best-seller! > Walt > On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:27 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> Gee, I was afraid that no one read them. >> >> >> But, I am feeling much better now. >> >> Would you like to hear me sing? >> >> "Daisy, Daisy, give me you answer do, I'm half crazy ..." >> >> "I'm Sorry" Dave >> >> On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> ... >>> In my days in the U of O, way back in the Stone Age, a >>> schizophrenic lived in my neighborhood. I never actually met him, >>> because he only came out at night, to fasten his strident >>> manifestoes to telephone poles. It seems he felt a compulsion to >>> share his hallucinatory revelations with all humanity, but could >>> not communicate face to face; so he painstakingly typed out his >>> dire warnings with a faded typewriter ribbon, and many >>> overstrikings and scribblings-out, and illustrated them with crude >>> ball-point drawings. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 10:26:08 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:26:08 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] 3 copies...here too Message-ID: When I read your note about this, I didn?t ?recognize the problem? here...but guess what I just found in my junk mail box?!! My email notifies me of junk mail...but I certainly do not recall getting this many notifications. So one more vote for ?too much of the same? mail. Kristy From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 11:37:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:37:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <543559122.14398601268591847558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> 1. No question of paternity or date of birth. 2. A copy of the BC has never been released. (Source: Hawaii Bureau of Vital Statics. Same office says copies of BC are released only to a family member) 3. A COLB can be obtained by anyone and it was released to the internet. It is a computer generated certificate containing the vital information, a seal of authenticity, and the number of the cert normally found in the upper right hand corner of the COLB. Do you see all of those things on the internet version of Barry's COLB? If you do not see everything that is supposed to be there, you are not alone. The certificate number, generated by a computer, has a number, but that number on all copies is blanked out. Why? Possible answer: The number allows the cert to be tracked back to the exact day the computer generated it. That day should correspond to the day the BC (if there is one) was filed. Why is it blank? So no one can verify authenticity? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:44:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Don, Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician because no one is going to carry the original of anything to Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient for you, what is sufficient? If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack Obama eligible to be elected President? We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, mother's maiden name, and father's name. We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 11:51:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:51:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <25758-4B9BDE2E-6988@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <516452409.14402831268592693662.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Thanks Hoss. Always a feel good. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:49:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 16:49:53 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:49:53 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1181948549-1268610603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508677477-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I find all the birther stuff intriguing. But I agree with the hillary concept. That is, of course, obama didn't have more dirt on her to counter the blackmail. -----Original Message----- From: Adam Mayer Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:47:12 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Add to this that if there was proof that President Obama was not born in Hawaii, don't you think Hillary Clinton would have used this during the primaries? If the Clinton's with their all of their money and power couldn't find anything, I think it's pretty safe to say that the matter is closed. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Don, > > Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. > > If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. > > Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. > > The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. > > No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician because no one is going to carry the original of anything to Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient for you, what is sufficient? > > If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". > > You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. > > All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack Obama eligible to be elected President? > > We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, mother's maiden name, and father's name. > > We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. > > David > > > > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: > > >> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. >> >> Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news organization. >> >> If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and the courts it seems. >> >> No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his birth certificate. >> >> Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a million light years from a certified birth certificate. >> >> Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? >> >> don >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 17:02:05 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:02:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <543559122.14398601268591847558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Nor needs to! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs ? So no one can verify authenticity? > > don From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 17:02:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:02:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1143793821-1268582450-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1207405600-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <00b701cac328$d15dbd10$74193730$@net><1555292240.14323751268556334880.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1143793821-1268582450-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1207405600-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: No, I said that a lot of people who are obsessively repeating the same tired old lies and fantasies about Obama are impelled by racism. Whether they disagree with me or not was not mentioned. Why don't you repeat my supposed "specific statement," instead of just doing the old "Obama has specifically stated this is a Muslem country" routine you did previously? On Mar 14, 2010, at 9:00 AM, Steve wrote: > Walt has specifically stated that anyone who disagrees with walt is > a racist. > -----Original Message----- > From: donkelly > Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:45:34 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > That Joker thing is despicable, but has been distributed around the > world. > I'm sure of two things about this group: > 1. No one here had anything to do with that cartoon. > 2. No one here has discussed, that I have heard, the color of > anyone's skin, or more generally, racism. I don't read every post > so I'm sure I missed that one. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Julie Larson > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:45:40 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > I just googled that term and it came up with that horrific image > that is > supposed to be the President as the joker but always look more like a > minstrel show performer to me. The ignorance and hatred in this > country and > on grovenet makes me ashamed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Geri > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:27 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > MSSG: GroveNet Administrator(s): Just how much racism is okay here on > GroveNet? > > Geri > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "donkelly" > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > >> Don't dummy up on us Walt. You heard his speech in Oregon. >> >> Also, you know there are 57 muslim countries (of 60) that are >> actually > members of the organized muslim coalition. >> >> I know you are smart, so please let your candle shine. Don't dummy >> up on > us. >> We know that you know what we are talking about. >> >> When Jobama makes a statement, do you believe it? Or do you >> question it? >> >> > http://email.wnd.com/hostedemail/email.htm? > h=de018b75630424ca8f448a0e206e1f8 > a&CID=5982912917&ch=35A6D5BD69C9E567D6FA749C49D0B6B2 >> >> don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 17:06:21 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:06:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com> <4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86006B40-0067-494C-8F89-D188C72FE27F@teleport.com> Or try the more obvious answer, already proposed by somebody else: 8: He's human. And I know I am getting bloody tired of watching people trying to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp discloth. On Mar 14, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I'm sorry Walt, I now understand. Anytime George Bush made a > mistake it > was because he didn't know what he was doing. Anytime Barack Obama > makes a mistake it's because: > 1) it's his staff's fault, 2) he's tired, 3) someone from the Bush > administration is doing it on purpose, 4) he isn't making a mistake > just > testing us, 5) solar flares, 6) bad weather, 7) and/or the moon men > that > were mentioned that he is associated with in a post I saw yesterday. > > Thank you for clearing that up for me. > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there >>> were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading >>> hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? >>> >> >> True... I might have "misunderestimated" Dubya... yet if Obama makes >> mistakes, he makes them in English, and in connected sentences. >> If not knowing how many men have served as President presents a >> critical danger to the country, how great a danger is presented by >> not being able to distinguish between apertures in animal and mineral >> matter? >> >>> You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as >>> president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine >>> tooth comb? What does that say about him then? >>> >> >> I dunno... overconfidence in his staff, perhaps? Fatigue? A momentary >> brainf-rt such as we all experience? Or maybe he was just checking on >> YOU, personally, to see how you'd react? >> Talk about a fine-tooth comb... you can be damn sure the RNC's >> hatchetmen were raking and sifting over his speech with obsessive >> care, checking every semicolon for possible negative connotations, >> trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang a hysterical warning of >> doom on... and if THIS is the best they could come up with, it's >> pretty damn pitiful... and petty... maybe "pettyful". I know I'm >> pretty damn tired of it... people who agonize over this minor gaffe >> (note spelling) should be able to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a >> damp dishcloth. >> >> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? >>>> I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama >>>> on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya >>>> practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his >>>> mouth. >>>> . >>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Walt, >>>>> >>>>> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not >>>>> defending >>>>> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It >>>>> should be >>>>> the same for both. >>>>> >>>>> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >>>>> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his >>>>> predecessors? >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would >>>>>> notice at >>>>>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of >>>>>> which he >>>>>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were >>>>>> published. >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said anything either, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And another. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake >>>>>>>>> during his >>>>>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one >>>>>>>>> American, >>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is >>>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" >>>>>>>> Factor, >>>>>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>>>>> administration? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Adam >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the video >>>>>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of >>>>>>>>>> forty >>>>>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 17:15:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:15:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1181948549-1268610603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508677477-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> <1181948549-1268610603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508677477-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Excellent point, Adam. And you can be sure the RNC Dirty Tricks department, all the conservative think tanks and anyone connected with the other candidates were digging desperately, trying to come up with some bombshell that would blow Obama out of the water. The fact they didn't succeed, despite all the money and the operates they must have thrown into the project, speaks volumes. But, knowing that a constant drip will wear away even stone, they left the job of defamation to the yell-radio hucksters, the bloggers and the hysterics. On Mar 14, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Steve wrote: > I find all the birther stuff intriguing. But I agree with the > hillary concept. That is, of course, obama didn't have more dirt on > her to counter the blackmail. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Mayer > Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:47:12 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Add to this that if there was proof that President Obama was not > born in > Hawaii, don't you think Hillary Clinton would have used this during > the > primaries? If the Clinton's with their all of their money and power > couldn't find anything, I think it's pretty safe to say that the > matter > is closed. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> Don, >> >> Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann >> Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded >> that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in >> August 1961. >> >> If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, >> mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. >> >> Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. >> >> The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. >> >> No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical >> piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician >> because no one is going to carry the original of anything to >> Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original >> paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a >> copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If >> the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient >> for you, what is sufficient? >> >> If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and >> "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide >> some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like >> did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a >> "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". >> >> You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, >> you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. >> If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was >> hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form >> in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, >> and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be >> correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. >> >> All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack >> Obama eligible to be elected President? >> >> We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, >> mother's maiden name, and father's name. >> >> We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. >> >> David >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. >>> >>> Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news >>> organization. >>> >>> If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and >>> the courts it seems. >>> >>> No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his >>> birth certificate. >>> >>> Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone >>> can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a >>> million light years from a certified birth certificate. >>> >>> Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not >>> to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? >>> >>> don >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 17:17:18 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:17:18 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <86006B40-0067-494C-8F89-D188C72FE27F@teleport.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com><4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com><86006B40-0067-494C-8F89-D188C72FE27F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <584118367-1268612249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1686836940-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> He is human but everyone else is a racist. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:06:21 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Or try the more obvious answer, already proposed by somebody else: 8: He's human. And I know I am getting bloody tired of watching people trying to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp discloth. On Mar 14, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I'm sorry Walt, I now understand. Anytime George Bush made a > mistake it > was because he didn't know what he was doing. Anytime Barack Obama > makes a mistake it's because: > 1) it's his staff's fault, 2) he's tired, 3) someone from the Bush > administration is doing it on purpose, 4) he isn't making a mistake > just > testing us, 5) solar flares, 6) bad weather, 7) and/or the moon men > that > were mentioned that he is associated with in a post I saw yesterday. > > Thank you for clearing that up for me. > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents there >>> were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading >>> hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? >>> >> >> True... I might have "misunderestimated" Dubya... yet if Obama makes >> mistakes, he makes them in English, and in connected sentences. >> If not knowing how many men have served as President presents a >> critical danger to the country, how great a danger is presented by >> not being able to distinguish between apertures in animal and mineral >> matter? >> >>> You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first speech as >>> president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine >>> tooth comb? What does that say about him then? >>> >> >> I dunno... overconfidence in his staff, perhaps? Fatigue? A momentary >> brainf-rt such as we all experience? Or maybe he was just checking on >> YOU, personally, to see how you'd react? >> Talk about a fine-tooth comb... you can be damn sure the RNC's >> hatchetmen were raking and sifting over his speech with obsessive >> care, checking every semicolon for possible negative connotations, >> trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang a hysterical warning of >> doom on... and if THIS is the best they could come up with, it's >> pretty damn pitiful... and petty... maybe "pettyful". I know I'm >> pretty damn tired of it... people who agonize over this minor gaffe >> (note spelling) should be able to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a >> damp dishcloth. >> >> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? >>>> I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" Obama >>>> on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya >>>> practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his >>>> mouth. >>>> . >>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Walt, >>>>> >>>>> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not >>>>> defending >>>>> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It >>>>> should be >>>>> the same for both. >>>>> >>>>> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is pretty >>>>> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his >>>>> predecessors? >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would >>>>>> notice at >>>>>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of >>>>>> which he >>>>>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were >>>>>> published. >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said anything either, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And another. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake >>>>>>>>> during his >>>>>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one >>>>>>>>> American, >>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least two >>>>>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is >>>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" >>>>>>>> Factor, >>>>>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify this >>>>>>>> administration? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Adam >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the video >>>>>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards from 50 >>>>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of >>>>>>>>>> forty >>>>>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 17:30:52 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:30:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <584118367-1268612249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1686836940-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com><4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com><86006B40-0067-494C-8F89-D188C72FE27F@teleport.com> <584118367-1268612249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1686836940-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <17260987-1F71-4312-AB67-8ACA1E804349@teleport.com> Aw gee, ain't that a kinda broad and sweeping generalization? However, the subject of "Obama's Gaffs" (sic) is "pettyful" (I think I'll patent that word-- it seems increasingly useful these days), and I'm tired of it. I think other members of the communty have expressed themselves as bored also. WW On Mar 14, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Steve wrote: > He is human but everyone else is a racist. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:06:21 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Or try the more obvious answer, already proposed by somebody else: > 8: He's human. > And I know I am getting bloody tired of watching people trying to > wring the Johnstown Flood out of a damp discloth. > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> I'm sorry Walt, I now understand. Anytime George Bush made a >> mistake it >> was because he didn't know what he was doing. Anytime Barack Obama >> makes a mistake it's because: >> 1) it's his staff's fault, 2) he's tired, 3) someone from the Bush >> administration is doing it on purpose, 4) he isn't making a mistake >> just >> testing us, 5) solar flares, 6) bad weather, 7) and/or the moon men >> that >> were mentioned that he is associated with in a post I saw yesterday. >> >> Thank you for clearing that up for me. >> >> Adam >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> So if his staff isn't smart enough to know how many presidents >>>> there >>>> were? OK, I'll buy that. Which means that George Bush was reading >>>> hurriedly cranked out speeches by his staff too, right? >>>> >>> >>> True... I might have "misunderestimated" Dubya... yet if Obama makes >>> mistakes, he makes them in English, and in connected sentences. >>> If not knowing how many men have served as President presents a >>> critical danger to the country, how great a danger is presented by >>> not being able to distinguish between apertures in animal and >>> mineral >>> matter? >>> >>>> You get one chance to make a first impression. Your first >>>> speech as >>>> president of the United States and you don't go over it with a fine >>>> tooth comb? What does that say about him then? >>>> >>> >>> I dunno... overconfidence in his staff, perhaps? Fatigue? A >>> momentary >>> brainf-rt such as we all experience? Or maybe he was just >>> checking on >>> YOU, personally, to see how you'd react? >>> Talk about a fine-tooth comb... you can be damn sure the RNC's >>> hatchetmen were raking and sifting over his speech with obsessive >>> care, checking every semicolon for possible negative connotations, >>> trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang a hysterical warning of >>> doom on... and if THIS is the best they could come up with, it's >>> pretty damn pitiful... and petty... maybe "pettyful". I know I'm >>> pretty damn tired of it... people who agonize over this minor gaffe >>> (note spelling) should be able to wring the Johnstown Flood out of a >>> damp dishcloth. >>> >>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> >>>>> Or he was reading a speech hurriedly cranked out by his staff? >>>>> I thiknk it sets a pretty poor standard to "misunderestimate" >>>>> Obama >>>>> on the grounds of one piddly little goof like this, when Dubya >>>>> practically had to tie his feet together to keep them out of his >>>>> mouth. >>>>> . >>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:18 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Walt, >>>>>> >>>>>> You may think that but that's not what happened. I'm not >>>>>> defending >>>>>> Bush, but Obama is not being held to the same standard. It >>>>>> should be >>>>>> the same for both. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I would say it's a bit more than a little goof, that is >>>>>> pretty >>>>>> embarrassing. Not knowing how many men have been his >>>>>> predecessors? >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> If Dubya made a simple little goof like this, nobody would >>>>>>> notice at >>>>>>> all! They were too used to his more outrageous howlers, of >>>>>>> which he >>>>>>> committed so many that books and calendars of them were >>>>>>> published. >>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're right. If George Bush make a mistake like this nobody >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> said anything either, right? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:40 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And another. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Less than five minutes into the job his first mistake >>>>>>>>>> during his >>>>>>>>>> inaugural speech: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Forty-four Americans have now taken the presidential oath." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Obama is the forty-third American to take the oath. Grover >>>>>>>>>> Cleveland >>>>>>>>>> did it twice (1885 & 1893), which still counts as one >>>>>>>>>> American, >>>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, Grover Cleveland was fat enough to count for at least >>>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>>> Americans-- look at his pictures! ;^) >>>>>>>>> Seriously, however, do you think this obsessive nit-picking of >>>>>>>>> speechwriter errors and spoonerisms and verbal slips is >>>>>>>>> enough to >>>>>>>>> offset the actual qualities of a person? Where is the "WMD" >>>>>>>>> Factor, >>>>>>>>> or the Cheney/Rove-type puppeteers, which would disqualify >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> administration? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Adam >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jeff Howden wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jamsm at aol.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Had to dig this one up... just too funny! >>>>>>>>>>>> As it happened in Portland. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> How many states do we have ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlfdIif9vQ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, he is real intelligent - NOT! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yup, definitely a gaff, a mathematical one at that. We've >>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>>> boneheaded things before. In this case, it's quite obvious >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> the video >>>>>>>>>>> that he's tired and I'll bet he was working backwards >>>>>>>>>>> from 50 >>>>>>>>>>> down >>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>> number of states he's been in. Fifty came out instead of >>>>>>>>>>> forty >>>>>>>>>>> and then the >>>>>>>>>>> seven after a long pause. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 17:36:44 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:36:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <181F5D1E-B72A-4304-A8FB-A83EA48E6154@teleport.com> <4B991C48.5030700@gmail.com> <4B996C45.7000306@gmail.com> <51C29702-C8BD-4174-ADF1-727CAFB614D0@teleport.com> <4B9AAC47.90602@gmail.com><4B9CF237.1020902@gmail.com><86006B40-0067-494C-8F89-D188C72FE27F@teleport.com> <584118367-1268612249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1686836940-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <17260987-1F71-4312-AB67-8ACA1E804349@teleport.com> Message-ID: <44F059C3A2A3457B84BC2D4D22E45F09@EdsPortable> Yes. Why don't you people just give it up. You're never going to convince anyone as bigoted as these. (And while you're at it, delete some of the past stuff. It is taking up too much bandwidth.) Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Aw gee, ain't that a kinda broad and sweeping generalization? > However, the subject of "Obama's Gaffs" (sic) is "pettyful" (I think > I'll patent that word-- it seems increasingly useful these days), and > I'm tired of it. I think other members of the communty have expressed > themselves as bored also. > WW > On Mar 14, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Steve wrote: > >> He is human but everyone else is a racist. From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Mar 14 18:13:22 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:13:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:36:44 -0700 Message-ID: <25677-4B9D89B2-4536@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Right On Mr Ed .. give them the what for! ~A~ {;?) Thats my storty and I'm sticking to IT Mr Ed wrote.. Why don't you people just give it up. You're never going to convince anyone as bigoted as these. (And while you're at it, delete some of the past stuff. It is taking up too much bandwidth.) Ed From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 19:25:59 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> <1181948549-1268610603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508677477-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4B9D9AB7.60403@gmail.com> In 2008 I was one of the seven Libertarian electors for the state of Oregon. I knew Bob Barr wouldn't win the state, but every political party has to name them or your candidate cannot appear on the ballot. Right after the election I got at least five letters mailed to me by these people. I mainly found it funny that they didn't realize that I wasn't going to DC to vote since I'm not a Democrat and even if I was, I believe Oregon is a state where you cannot vote for someone else than who won the state (could be wrong). Most were hand written, Unabomber style, that carried on about how he is not an American, called him by his real Muslim name (forgot it know) and other crazy allegations. I'll admit it did raise some interesting points, but nothing that offered any proof. The birther's I've seen are not associated with the RNC, these are the midnight telephone poll posters. Now to raise the level of paranoia and conspiracy, how do we know that it's not the DNC behind this? If they can get people worked up about his birth certificate then they won't be paying attention to their real agenda, confiscating all automobiles, firearms, factories and AM radios and grinding them into a soyant green style cracker that we will be required to eat twice a day. >:o Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Excellent point, Adam. > And you can be sure the RNC Dirty Tricks department, all the > conservative think tanks and anyone connected with the other > candidates were digging desperately, trying to come up with some > bombshell that would blow Obama out of the water. > The fact they didn't succeed, despite all the money and the operates > they must have thrown into the project, speaks volumes. But, knowing > that a constant drip will wear away even stone, they left the job of > defamation to the yell-radio hucksters, the bloggers and the hysterics. > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Steve wrote: > > >> I find all the birther stuff intriguing. But I agree with the >> hillary concept. That is, of course, obama didn't have more dirt on >> her to counter the blackmail. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Adam Mayer >> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:47:12 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> Add to this that if there was proof that President Obama was not >> born in >> Hawaii, don't you think Hillary Clinton would have used this during >> the >> primaries? If the Clinton's with their all of their money and power >> couldn't find anything, I think it's pretty safe to say that the >> matter >> is closed. >> >> Adam >> >> David Morelli wrote: >> >>> Don, >>> >>> Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann >>> Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded >>> that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in >>> August 1961. >>> >>> If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, >>> mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please reference it. >>> >>> Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. >>> >>> The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin reason. >>> >>> No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical >>> piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician >>> because no one is going to carry the original of anything to >>> Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original >>> paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a >>> copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If >>> the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient >>> for you, what is sufficient? >>> >>> If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and >>> "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide >>> some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like >>> did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a >>> "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". >>> >>> You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, >>> you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. >>> If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was >>> hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form >>> in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, >>> and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be >>> correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. >>> >>> All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack >>> Obama eligible to be elected President? >>> >>> We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, >>> mother's maiden name, and father's name. >>> >>> We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein Obama. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. >>>> >>>> Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news >>>> organization. >>>> >>>> If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and >>>> the courts it seems. >>>> >>>> No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his >>>> birth certificate. >>>> >>>> Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone >>>> can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a >>>> million light years from a certified birth certificate. >>>> >>>> Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not >>>> to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? >>>> >>>> don >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Mar 14 19:29:27 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:29:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] end of the saga pg 1? Message-ID: <25675-4B9D9B87-5777@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/friendship3.html My Dear Friends.. I contemplated a long while today about posting this one. However, after reading the grove mission statement again, I decided, what the heck. So, here it comes.. Most times a person when in a bad way often times will see a counselor or therapist, and spend $$$, for goodness knows for how long, or even if it does help? However, an OleHoss, referring to myself of course, is a different breed of cat. So, why would I go to a counselor or therapist when I have the grove to vent my frustrations? And besides it's free... As the subject says... End of the Saga. I'll begin by saying thanks for being my friends, and if it had not been for Miss"B" more than ten years ago, I would not writing this now. Now that I think about, I wonder where the time went, and so damn fast. During those ten years mentioned, I have made some very good friends. One or more of those have given me very good console, and did help both physically and mentally as well. For some time now you have read my troubles about my shoulder. I do not remember if I mentioned that at that time to incision was not healing right and weeping. right. However, I did not mention that just a day before last xmas my brother Spike aka Andrew surprised the family clan with a visit from Calif. After a few days of doing brother type things Spike said that I was looking real crappy, and I must admit I felt it too. But, I only blamed the Flu, and was Horse doctoring myself.. Spike said nope that ain't good enough, and took me to Hillsburo to see Dr. Joe Kim at Tuality. The Dr took a culture from my open wound, and sent it to the hospital for an analyses, Early xmas eve morning Dr Joe calls me and said I had a staph infection called Mirsa +1. Shocked I said ok, when do I have to go to hospital, he says why, you want to go back where you got it? I msn searched Mirsa, and found more that I really wanted to, and that almost everyone has a bit of it on their bodies. He prescribed a BIG BOTTLE of Broad Spectrum of Horse pills, and to drink a lot water, and call him in a week, or so. Well I did just that, and I'm a lot better, but the rest of the saga gets worse. Another addition of this Hoss-Style Saga will follow later. And Please!! If anyone has a comment good or bad, please do not post in on the grove, however, If anyone wants, even to tell I'm nuts, and or says I should stop, please feel free to post to my directly. I'll not let it go any farther than myself. Hummm, I wonder how many trash files will be added to after this? ~A~ {;?( Thats my story and I'm sticking to IT! From waltw at teleport.com Sun Mar 14 20:17:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:17:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9D9AB7.60403@gmail.com> References: <960915065.14323071268554489983.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><4B9CF6F0.4020504@gmail.com> <1181948549-1268610603-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-508677477-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4B9D9AB7.60403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83CA0813-D766-4579-BBC0-BB89BD0B760E@teleport.com> > Now to raise the level of paranoia and > conspiracy, how do we know that it's not the DNC behind this? If they > can get people worked up about his birth certificate then they > won't be > paying attention to their real agenda, confiscating all automobiles, > firearms, factories and AM radios and grinding them into a soyant > green > style cracker that we will be required to eat twice a day. >:o Well, that'll put some iron in your diet!!! ;^) > > Adam > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Excellent point, Adam. >> And you can be sure the RNC Dirty Tricks department, all the >> conservative think tanks and anyone connected with the other >> candidates were digging desperately, trying to come up with some >> bombshell that would blow Obama out of the water. >> The fact they didn't succeed, despite all the money and the operates >> they must have thrown into the project, speaks volumes. But, knowing >> that a constant drip will wear away even stone, they left the job of >> defamation to the yell-radio hucksters, the bloggers and the >> hysterics. >> >> On Mar 14, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Steve wrote: >> >> >>> I find all the birther stuff intriguing. But I agree with the >>> hillary concept. That is, of course, obama didn't have more dirt on >>> her to counter the blackmail. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:47:12 >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >>> >>> Add to this that if there was proof that President Obama was not >>> born in >>> Hawaii, don't you think Hillary Clinton would have used this during >>> the >>> primaries? If the Clinton's with their all of their money and power >>> couldn't find anything, I think it's pretty safe to say that the >>> matter >>> is closed. >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> David Morelli wrote: >>> >>>> Don, >>>> >>>> Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann >>>> Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded >>>> that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in >>>> August 1961. >>>> >>>> If you have anything that indicates that the date of birth, >>>> mother's maiden name or father's name are false, please >>>> reference it. >>>> >>>> Otherwise, please explain why you choose to doubt it. >>>> >>>> The fact that you have not seen a birth certificate is a thin >>>> reason. >>>> >>>> No one is going to appear at your door with the original physical >>>> piece of paper that was filled out by the attending physician >>>> because no one is going to carry the original of anything to >>>> Forest Grove for you to review on this matter. The original >>>> paperwork will remain on file in Hawaii, at best we will see a >>>> copy of it circulated in some fashion. That has been done. If >>>> the copies that are currently in circulation are not sufficient >>>> for you, what is sufficient? >>>> >>>> If someone wants to claim that "Birth Certificate" and >>>> "Certificate of Live Birth" are different, they should provide >>>> some references. Otherwise the phrasing looks like fashion. Like >>>> did you receive an "Honorable Discharge", or did you receive a >>>> "Discharge under Honorable Conditions". >>>> >>>> You have never seen the original document of your birth. At best, >>>> you have seen a "birth certificate" or a print from a microfiche. >>>> If you got a "birth certificate" you got a piece of paper that was >>>> hand typed by a secretary at the time of the request, on the form >>>> in use at the time of the request, from the information on file, >>>> and the information on that piece of paper was "certified" to be >>>> correct. Hence the name, Birth Certificate. >>>> >>>> All of that takes us away from the original issue. Is Barack >>>> Obama eligible to be elected President? >>>> >>>> We only need three pieces of data in his case. Date of birth, >>>> mother's maiden name, and father's name. >>>> >>>> We have August 4, 1961, Stanley Ann Dunham, and Barack Hussein >>>> Obama. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:14 AM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well I can't comment on them because I have never seen one. >>>>> >>>>> Neither has anyone at Fox, CNN, CNBC or CSPAN, or any other news >>>>> organization. >>>>> >>>>> If there is a birth certificate, it is sealed to the public, and >>>>> the courts it seems. >>>>> >>>>> No one, until now, has stated that anyone has seen a copy of his >>>>> birth certificate. >>>>> >>>>> Please tell me you are not referring instead to the COLB. Anyone >>>>> can get one of those, even anyone not born in Hawaii. COLB is a >>>>> million light years from a certified birth certificate. >>>>> >>>>> Where did you see one? If they were fake, it would be stupid not >>>>> to make the DOB agree, wouldn't you agree? >>>>> >>>>> don >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Sun Mar 14 21:08:45 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:08:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The list Message-ID: <201003142108.45453.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Agora has been having difficulty lately, so you may find it unavailable from time to time. The owner is a bit overwhelmed at the moment and won't be able to get back to work on it until next weekend. You can check http://status.rdrop.com to get updates. I don't know how much of that is relevant to the list, but may give you some idea. Sorry for the inconvenience ... From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 21:18:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:18:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <543559122.14398601268591847558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <543559122.14398601268591847558.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <728F233F-F425-4E42-8FE3-CAC8B02DBBA9@verizon.net> On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, donkelly wrote: > 1. No question of paternity or date of birth. Great. A child born in 1961 to a British subject would have their citizenship based upon the 1948 British Nationality Act. That act requires that, at the time of birth, the father and the mother must have a valid marriage under the laws governing their marriage. Barack Obama Sr. was married in Kenya to Keziah Grace Aoko Obama prior and had children prior to traveling to Hawaii and meeting Stanley Ann Dunham. Hawaiian Law 572-1 (3) stipulates the "requisites of valid marriage contract" ... "the man does not at the time have any lawful wife living..." So, even if Dunham and Obama had a wedding, it was not valid under Hawaiian law, and therefore the child of that union would not be eligible for British citizenship. A child born in 1961 to an American citizen would have their citizenship based upon Section 301 of 8 United States Code 1409. Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C 1409] regulates Obama's citizenship. (a) says, "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: a person born in the United States... and (c) says, "... a person born, after December 23, 11952, outside of the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother..." Stanley Ann Dunham was born of American parents within the continental United States, therefore she was an American citizen. So, the out of wedlock child of Stanley and Barack Sr. is a United States citizen, no matter where he was born. > 2. A copy of the BC has never been released. (Source: Hawaii Bureau of Vital Statics. Same office says copies of BC are released only to a family member) We don't need know where Obama was born to determine his citizenship. > 3. A COLB can be obtained by anyone and it was released to the internet. It is a computer generated certificate containing the vital information, a seal of authenticity, and the number of the cert normally found in the upper right hand corner of the COLB. > > Do you see all of those things on the internet version of Barry's COLB? They are a meaningless distraction. We don't need it to determine citizenship. We need to know the citizenship of his mother and whether she had a valid marriage. > > If you do not see everything that is supposed to be there, you are not alone. > The certificate number, generated by a computer, has a number, but that number on all copies is blanked out. > > Why? > > Possible answer: The number allows the cert to be tracked back to the exact day the computer generated it. That day should correspond to the day the BC (if there is one) was filed. Why is it blank? So no one can verify authenticity? A meaningless distraction. Stanley's out of wedlock child is an American citizen at birth. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:44:23 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Don, > > Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. > Barack Hussein Obama Jr. was of sufficient age and a natural born citizen at the time of his election to President of the United States. From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sun Mar 14 21:37:43 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] PFLAG in Forest Grove Tues. 3/16, 7 PM, UCC Don't Ask, Don't tell Message-ID: <451782.80082.qm@web55605.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi Folks, New and important things are happening with the Don?t Ask Don?t Tell anti-gay military policy and with your local Forest Grove PFLAG chapter. ? Come join us for an engaging and educational program on the status of the official military policy affecting our gay and lesbian service personnel. ? Ron Rasmussen from Veterans for Human Rights ? Will be joined by local gay and lesbian ex-service members to discuss this very timely topic. ? Tuesday, Mar. 16th at 7:00 PM at the FG UCC (College Way entrance) ? Joe Lieberman (of all people), has introduced a bill in the Senate to overturn this current policy.? Come to hear about this and more current details about DADT. We?ll also be sharing important information and wanting to get your input on FG PFLAG?s future plans.? There?s lots of stuff in the works. Call me if you have any questions: John Hock 503 359-9719 See you Tuesday!? John From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sun Mar 14 21:41:42 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Paint or Plastic? Tues. 3/16, 12 PM, PU In-Reply-To: <201003142108.45453.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <602852.22767.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Pacific University - Center for Gender Equity Brown Bag Series: ?PAINT OR PLASTIC? What?s the deal with plastic surgery? Do just motorcycle gangs get tattoos and emo kids get piercings? Is this art or self-mutilation?? Discuss with panelists Adam Arola, Jey Strangfeld, and local artists. Date:? Tuesday, March 16th Time:? 12:00-1:00PM Place:? UC Fireside, Student center, Pacific U.? Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 22:37:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:37:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <728F233F-F425-4E42-8FE3-CAC8B02DBBA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Still does not meet our constitutional law governing the definition of natural born citizen. So this is your opinion, but until the facts meet the standard, this is so much drivel, a cop out. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:18:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:37 AM, donkelly wrote: > 1. No question of paternity or date of birth. Great. A child born in 1961 to a British subject would have their citizenship based upon the 1948 British Nationality Act. That act requires that, at the time of birth, the father and the mother must have a valid marriage under the laws governing their marriage. Barack Obama Sr. was married in Kenya to Keziah Grace Aoko Obama prior and had children prior to traveling to Hawaii and meeting Stanley Ann Dunham. Hawaiian Law 572-1 (3) stipulates the "requisites of valid marriage contract" ... "the man does not at the time have any lawful wife living..." So, even if Dunham and Obama had a wedding, it was not valid under Hawaiian law, and therefore the child of that union would not be eligible for British citizenship. A child born in 1961 to an American citizen would have their citizenship based upon Section 301 of 8 United States Code 1409. Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C 1409] regulates Obama's citizenship. (a) says, "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: a person born in the United States... and (c) says, "... a person born, after December 23, 11952, outside of the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother..." Stanley Ann Dunham was born of American parents within the continental United States, therefore she was an American citizen. So, the out of wedlock child of Stanley and Barack Sr. is a United States citizen, no matter where he was born. > 2. A copy of the BC has never been released. (Source: Hawaii Bureau of Vital Statics. Same office says copies of BC are released only to a family member) We don't need know where Obama was born to determine his citizenship. > 3. A COLB can be obtained by anyone and it was released to the internet. It is a computer generated certificate containing the vital information, a seal of authenticity, and the number of the cert normally found in the upper right hand corner of the COLB. > > Do you see all of those things on the internet version of Barry's COLB? They are a meaningless distraction. We don't need it to determine citizenship. We need to know the citizenship of his mother and whether she had a valid marriage. > > If you do not see everything that is supposed to be there, you are not alone. > The certificate number, generated by a computer, has a number, but that number on all copies is blanked out. > > Why? > > Possible answer: The number allows the cert to be tracked back to the exact day the computer generated it. That day should correspond to the day the BC (if there is one) was filed. Why is it blank? So no one can verify authenticity? A meaningless distraction. Stanley's out of wedlock child is an American citizen at birth. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:44:23 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Don, > > Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The state of Hawaii recorded that information and released it to the Hawaiian newspapers in August 1961. > Barack Hussein Obama Jr. was of sufficient age and a natural born citizen at the time of his election to President of the United States. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Mar 14 22:50:42 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] end of the saga pg 1? In-Reply-To: <25675-4B9D9B87-5777@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1382577850.14591701268632242744.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Please recover fast from this crappy infection Hoss. It could take awhile, but worth it to get well again. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:29:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] end of the saga pg 1? http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/friendship3.html My Dear Friends.. I contemplated a long while today about posting this one. However, after reading the grove mission statement again, I decided, what the heck. So, here it comes.. Most times a person when in a bad way often times will see a counselor or therapist, and spend $$$, for goodness knows for how long, or even if it does help? However, an OleHoss, referring to myself of course, is a different breed of cat. So, why would I go to a counselor or therapist when I have the grove to vent my frustrations? And besides it's free... As the subject says... End of the Saga. I'll begin by saying thanks for being my friends, and if it had not been for Miss"B" more than ten years ago, I would not writing this now. Now that I think about, I wonder where the time went, and so damn fast. During those ten years mentioned, I have made some very good friends. One or more of those have given me very good console, and did help both physically and mentally as well. For some time now you have read my troubles about my shoulder. I do not remember if I mentioned that at that time to incision was not healing right and weeping. right. However, I did not mention that just a day before last xmas my brother Spike aka Andrew surprised the family clan with a visit from Calif. After a few days of doing brother type things Spike said that I was looking real crappy, and I must admit I felt it too. But, I only blamed the Flu, and was Horse doctoring myself.. Spike said nope that ain't good enough, and took me to Hillsburo to see Dr. Joe Kim at Tuality. The Dr took a culture from my open wound, and sent it to the hospital for an analyses, Early xmas eve morning Dr Joe calls me and said I had a staph infection called Mirsa +1. Shocked I said ok, when do I have to go to hospital, he says why, you want to go back where you got it? I msn searched Mirsa, and found more that I really wanted to, and that almost everyone has a bit of it on their bodies. He prescribed a BIG BOTTLE of Broad Spectrum of Horse pills, and to drink a lot water, and call him in a week, or so. Well I did just that, and I'm a lot better, but the rest of the saga gets worse. Another addition of this Hoss-Style Saga will follow later. And Please!! If anyone has a comment good or bad, please do not post in on the grove, however, If anyone wants, even to tell I'm nuts, and or says I should stop, please feel free to post to my directly. I'll not let it go any farther than myself. Hummm, I wonder how many trash files will be added to after this? ~A~ {;?( Thats my story and I'm sticking to IT! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 23:05:19 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:05:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] end of the saga pg 1? In-Reply-To: <1382577850.14591701268632242744.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1382577850.14591701268632242744.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7427B314-D965-4CA1-B7D8-20CC59C1E19D@verizon.net> Yes, do get better. We can agree on the important stuff. David On Mar 14, 2010, at 10:50 PM, donkelly wrote: > Please recover fast from this crappy infection Hoss. It could take awhile, but worth it to get well again. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alan AKA Hoss > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Sent: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:29:27 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: [Grovenet] end of the saga pg 1? > > http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/friendship3.html > > My Dear Friends.. > I contemplated a long while today about posting this one. However, > after reading the grove mission statement again, > I decided, what the heck. So, here it comes.. > Most times a person when in a bad way often times will see a counselor > or therapist, and spend $$$, for goodness knows for how long, or even if > it does help? > However, an OleHoss, referring to myself of course, is a different > breed of cat. So, why would I go to a counselor or therapist when I > have the grove to vent my frustrations? And besides it's free... > > As the subject says... > End of the Saga. > I'll begin by saying thanks for being my friends, and if it had not been > for Miss"B" more than ten years ago, I would not writing this now. Now > that I think about, I wonder where the time went, and so damn fast. > During those ten years mentioned, I have made some very good friends. > One or more of those have given me very good console, and did help both > physically and mentally as well. > For some time now you have read my troubles about my shoulder. I do not > remember if I mentioned that at that time to incision was not healing > right and weeping. right. However, I did not mention that just a day > before last xmas my brother Spike aka Andrew surprised the family clan > with a visit from Calif. > After a few days of doing brother type things Spike said that I was > looking real crappy, and I must admit I felt it too. But, I only blamed > the Flu, and was Horse doctoring myself.. Spike said nope that ain't > good enough, and took me to Hillsburo to see Dr. Joe Kim at Tuality. > The Dr took a culture from my open wound, and sent it to the hospital > for an analyses, Early xmas eve morning Dr Joe calls me and said I had > a staph infection called Mirsa +1. > Shocked I said ok, when do I have to go to hospital, he says why, you > want to go back where you got it? > I msn searched Mirsa, and found more that I really wanted to, and that > almost everyone has a bit of it on their bodies. > He prescribed a BIG BOTTLE of Broad Spectrum of Horse pills, and to > drink a lot water, and call him in a week, or so. Well I did just that, > and I'm a lot better, but the rest of the saga gets worse. > Another addition of this Hoss-Style Saga will follow later. And > Please!! If anyone has a comment good or bad, please do not post in on > the grove, however, If anyone wants, even to tell I'm nuts, and or says > I should stop, please feel free to post to my directly. I'll not let it > go any farther than myself. Hummm, I wonder how many trash files will > be added to after this? > > ~A~ {;?( > Thats my story and I'm sticking to IT! > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sun Mar 14 23:50:14 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:50:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <728F233F-F425-4E42-8FE3-CAC8B02DBBA9@verizon.net> <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <02d401cac40b$c4b71e60$4e255b20$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Still does not meet our constitutional law governing the definition > of natural born citizen. So this is your opinion, but until the > facts meet the standard, this is so much drivel, a cop out. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< David responds with a well-reasoned, well-argued position and this is your retort? His position makes sense. Your continued argument against it simply does not make sense. The reality is, it's done and over with. NO amount of bickering and bitter unhappiness about it is going to change the facts as they stand today. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=hr111-593&version=eh&nid=t 0%3Aeh%3A9 And it passed uncontested: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2009-647 Good day sir, Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 23:52:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Don, My opinion is based upon my research of the documents. The Constitution does not define "natural born citizen". That term originated in the colonies between our 1776 Declaration of Independence and our 1787 Constitutional Convention. It came from the British legal term "natural born subject", defined in Blackstone, as anyone born under British dominion. With the Declaration of Independence, we were no longer subjects of the British crown, we are citizens of a free nation. And anyone who was born under our dominion was a "natural born citizen". The state of Massachusetts enacted several laws between 1776 and 1787 for the purpose of naturalizing foreigners and granting them the same rights as possessed by the "natural born". Some of the laws used the ancient term "subject", while others used the modern term "citizen". Always the context was identical. The legal standard of "parallel construction" says that the same term, used in the same manner, in the same application, has the same meaning. "Natural born" means the same whether it applies to citizen or subject. Does Massachusetts' definition apply to the nation as whole? Yes. The Judiciary Act of 1789, Sec. 34. "And be it further enacted, That the laws of the several states, except where the constitution, treaties or statutes of the United States shall otherwise require or provide, shall be regarded as rules of decision in trials at common law in the courts of the United States in cases where they apply." Has the definition been tested by our courts? Yes. Lynch v. Clarke "every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States whatever the situation of his parents, was a natural-born citizen," A move to overturn Lynch v. Clarke was made in U.S. v Kim Won Ark where the state of California argued that it be thrown out. The Supreme court declined. Therefore it stands as United States law. Section 301 of 8 U.S.C 1901 says that Obama was a citizen at birth, which means that he was "born under the dominions and allegiance of the United States". That isn't my opinion, it is the law of the land. What more do you need? David On Mar 14, 2010, at 10:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > Still does not meet our constitutional law governing the definition of natural born citizen. So this is your opinion, but until the facts meet the standard, this is so much drivel, a cop out. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Sun Mar 14 23:52:59 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:52:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <4B9CF3D8.9090909@gmail.com> References: <4b399.7fd4051c.38c9df0a@aol.com> <056401cac0e3$7a2b07b0$6e811710$@com> <4B9900EC.80409@gmail.com> <9CCC7B00-F018-40E8-9ADD-8C7E9A41DB55@verizon.net> <4B9CF3D8.9090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, the Chester Arthur question is unresolvable and I only included it to show that even if Obama had said "Forty-Three Americans" someone could have criticized him for not knowing that C.A. Arthur was Canadian. Yes, people read a lot into the words spoken by a President. When President Bush met with Mahmoud Abbas and Nabil Shaath in 2003 he used words that could be translated as "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." Since the only record is English translations of the Arabic translation of the English original, we cannot be certain of the real words. I will accept that he said something consistent with his other quotations, "I know this is within our reach, because we are guided by a power larger than ourselves, Who creates us equal in His image." "We are not this story's Author, Who fills time and eternity with His purpose. Yet His purpose is achieved in our duty;" "And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm." G. W. Bush 2001 Inauguration Speech. Or we may consider the use of "crusade" when talking about a battle between the Christian American nation and the Muslim Al-Quaeda. Especially as it is understood by other Muslim people. "This crusade, this war on terrorism is gonna take awhile." G. W. Bush Sept, 2001 In the grand scheme of things, we should consider the consequences of the President's intentional "mistakes". "We agree that the Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons." "Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?" "We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States." "We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." G. W. Bush Oct 7, 2002 Somehow, the consequences of Obama making a mistake between "Forty-four" and "Forty-three" pales by comparison. David On Mar 14, 2010, at 7:34 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > Please don't tell me that you are a Chester Arthur birther? ;-) > > The difference between saying 44 times as opposed to 44 people is significant. Does it mean he should be impeached, no. Does it mean he should be held to a higher standard, yes. President is not something appointed by lottery, you choose to become president. Therefore any mistake you make, no matter how small will be noticed. > > I didn't disagree with Bush being held to the fire no matter how big or small his errors were. I just believe that Obama must be held to the same standard. > > Adam From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 15 00:23:31 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 00:23:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] ArborDay Reminder an on going Saga... Message-ID: <25758-4B9DE073-10116@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> My Dear Folks in the Grove.... I have just one more post, for I hit the hay. I promise, for I don't think an OleHoss would fit in grove net trash box If anyone noticed that I forgot to remind the grove to spring forward, is because I forgot. Now I know why I've sort of been off kilter most of the day. As for the subject matter .. Arbor Day in Oregon falls the second week of April. The Cc. is to my good friend Robert Smith who is an Arborist for Arbor Day of Nebraska. We he and spoke last week when I signed on for my 10 or 12 th year. And after he told me he had stopped off in PDX on his way to Seattle for business I could of hit for not getting touch. He said he would the next time. Anyway, I want to mention that I am willing to donate any volunteer Douglas Firs in case any grove-nutter wants to plant. They can have as many as the would like I have sizes anywhere from one to 36 inches. Now would be a good idea to pick out your next tree free. Now that I think about it, I have never of any function that are even held in Oregon, same on me. I belong to Oregon Tree Org, and ya would of think an OleHoss would have know this. In on April 16 th of 1996 my arborist, and his crew of seven or eight, I don't recall 9,000 give or take hybrid Douglas First. The started at 0630 at the top on my side of Green Mt, and were done by 2:30 pm. And before you say "doesn't that kid ever stop"? Well being an ex-cop who likes to write by using a lot of details, examples, and struggling novelist with a serious writers- block, for everything except writing stories like this. I like to say that it is just my nature. When an OleHoss is put out to pasture, I hope to be at the Pearly Gates, with my trusty quill in hand to add your name to Saint Peters BIG LOG BOOK. I know some folks in the grove get a big kick, out of my OleHoss Tales, and a few have even let me know, and commented I have already received some from my last post"The End Of The Saga Story" Those kinds comments It makes me feel real warm and fuzzy inside. If I don't slide of my mountain, and Dairy Creek doesn't rise.. I will keep doing what I like to do. And that's Telling OleHoss Tales. By the way, my Big John Story has been presented to Readers Digest, and I had it looked over by a professional. When I hear anything I shall let everyone know. ~A~ {:?) That's my story and I'm sticking to IT! From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Mar 15 07:19:28 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:19:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hoss-style Monday Morning Greeting Message-ID: <25765-4B9E41F0-2816@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It Is Monday! :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html/mondaymax.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100315/eb43b698/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Mar 15 08:37:02 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:37:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D559E935@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> The 1796-1797 treaty between the US and Tripoli contains Article 11, a direct claim regarding the historical fact of the creation of this country less than a full generation before. It was unanimously passed by the US Senate. One would think that Senators, serving with George Washington in his second term as president, and with many of the Founders still alive, would have some faint recollection of the founding principles that many of them had fought for against the Brits. A google search reveals this: "Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of the United States. Article 11 reads: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,-and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. Advocates of the separation of church and state claim [17] that this text constitutes evidence that the United States Government was not founded on the Christian religion. The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent." --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zaleski Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:52 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is perhaps one of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of the American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they believed in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical figure, they did not believe he was divined. I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the Christian "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the following link, but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about it, if the Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think they would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think further, that given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, don't you think they would have created a system of government where the laws of Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, why do you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a division between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted nothing to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion had done to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from happening here. So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so with some proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html peace, jimz On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. is > far > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are > no, > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in > recent > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 15 09:04:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:04:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I wonder if one hole remaining in our citizenship laws has ever been fixed. Although the child from an invalid marriage (or no marriage) of an American mother is automatically an American citizen, what about children of an American father and an unwed foreign mother? There are a great many elderly half-Americans in Europe and Japan, and many aging half-Americans in Korea (where they were heavily discriminated against in their childhood), and many adult half- Americans in Vietnam. (I doubt there will be many, if any, in the Middle East, due to the draconian local laws against females fraternizing with infidels, or with any unrelated male for that matter). Dave, do you know if this situation has ever been addressed in American law? Walt (just askin' --it wasn't me, really) Wentz On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:52 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Don, > > My opinion is based upon my research of the documents. > > The Constitution does not define "natural born citizen". That term > originated in the colonies between our 1776 Declaration of > Independence and our 1787 Constitutional Convention. It came from > the British legal term "natural born subject", defined in > Blackstone, as anyone born under British dominion. With the > Declaration of Independence, we were no longer subjects of the > British crown, we are citizens of a free nation. And anyone who > was born under our dominion was a "natural born citizen". The > state of Massachusetts enacted several laws between 1776 and 1787 > for the purpose of naturalizing foreigners and granting them the > same rights as possessed by the "natural born". Some of the laws > used the ancient term "subject", while others used the modern term > "citizen". Always the context was identical. The legal standard > of "parallel construction" says that the same term, used in the > same manner, in the same application, has the same meaning. > "Natural born" means the same w > hether it applies to citizen or subject. > > Does Massachusetts' definition apply to the nation as whole? Yes. > > The Judiciary Act of 1789, Sec. 34. > "And be it further enacted, That the laws of the several states, > except where the constitution, treaties or statutes of the United > States shall otherwise require or provide, shall be regarded as > rules of decision in trials at common law in the courts of the > United States in cases where they apply." > > Has the definition been tested by our courts? Yes. > > Lynch v. Clarke > "every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the > United States whatever the situation of his parents, was a natural- > born citizen," > > A move to overturn Lynch v. Clarke was made in U.S. v Kim Won Ark > where the state of California argued that it be thrown out. The > Supreme court declined. Therefore it stands as United States law. > > Section 301 of 8 U.S.C 1901 says that Obama was a citizen at birth, > which means that he was "born under the dominions and allegiance of > the United States". That isn't my opinion, it is the law of the land. > > What more do you need? > > David > > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 10:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Still does not meet our constitutional law governing the >> definition of natural born citizen. So this is your opinion, but >> until the facts meet the standard, this is so much drivel, a cop out. >> >> don > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 10:30:34 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:30:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D559E935@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com> <3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D559E935@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <3da285b1003151030o695e3daq2585f5ca74fae9aa@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Mike. You nailed it. Although this is unquestionably, incontrovertible (historical) evidence that this nation was not founded upon Christian principles, it will be dismissed and ignored by Christian extremists (as witnessed by the Christian Right, and by certain members of this list,) as untruth. No amount of tangible, historic or incontestable facts will change the minds of those who live their lives by "faith" alone, (and frankly, it's a waste of time to try to convince them otherwise). The "Birther" controversy is another case in point, an enormous amount of time and energy has been placed upon this issues (from both sides) and despite the fact that the "historical" record has been proven by the highest authorities to be indisputably correct, those who believe otherwise are not, and will never be convinced to the contrary. That is why our Founding Fathers saw fit to exclude "faith" from governance. One only need look at those nation's where faith rides dominion over all aspects of life and government to be convinced that our Founding Fathers were truly enlightened men. And through this enlightenment, they crafted one of the greatest, most enduring documents in the history of the human experience, the US Constitution. Had even a pinch of faith or religion been included, our lives and our liberties would be forever changed for the worse, and we would not be enjoying our enormous freedoms, our unfettered pursuits of happiness, and our unabashed love affair with the American Dream. All hail the Founding Fathers!!! peace, jimz On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > The 1796-1797 treaty between the US and Tripoli contains Article 11, a > direct claim regarding the historical fact of the creation of this country > less than a full generation before. It was unanimously passed by the US > Senate. One would think that Senators, serving with George Washington in > his second term as president, and with many of the Founders still alive, > would have some faint recollection of the founding principles that many of > them had fought for against the Brits. A google search reveals this: > > "Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of > separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of > the United States. > > Article 11 reads: > > Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in > any sense, founded on the Christian religion,-as it has in itself no > character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of > Mussulmen,-and as the said States never entered into any war or act of > hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that > no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an > interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. > > Advocates of the separation of church and state claim [17] that this text > constitutes evidence that the United States Government was not founded on > the Christian religion. The Senate's ratification was only the third > recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the > Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public > dissent." > > --Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Zaleski > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:52 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is perhaps one > of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of the > American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our > founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they believed > in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian > bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical figure, > they > did not believe he was divined. > > I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the Christian > "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the following link, > but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. > > In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about it, if > the > Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think they > would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think further, > that > given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, don't you > think they would have created a system of government where the laws of > Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians > (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, why do > you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a division > between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted nothing > to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion had done > to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from happening > here. > > So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so with some > proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. > > http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html > > peace, > jimz > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > > > > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. > is > > far > > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are > > no, > > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in > > recent > > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Mar 15 10:36:13 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:36:13 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? In-Reply-To: <3da285b1003151030o695e3daq2585f5ca74fae9aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a99f.33a89f1f.38cb4ef1@aol.com><3da285b1003122152i4f9b85aet1b9501b9f40463ed@mail.gmail.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D559E935@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><3da285b1003151030o695e3daq2585f5ca74fae9aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <994523847-1268674585-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-551194824-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Too bad we've screwed it up so bad. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Zaleski Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:30:34 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? Thanks Mike. You nailed it. Although this is unquestionably, incontrovertible (historical) evidence that this nation was not founded upon Christian principles, it will be dismissed and ignored by Christian extremists (as witnessed by the Christian Right, and by certain members of this list,) as untruth. No amount of tangible, historic or incontestable facts will change the minds of those who live their lives by "faith" alone, (and frankly, it's a waste of time to try to convince them otherwise). The "Birther" controversy is another case in point, an enormous amount of time and energy has been placed upon this issues (from both sides) and despite the fact that the "historical" record has been proven by the highest authorities to be indisputably correct, those who believe otherwise are not, and will never be convinced to the contrary. That is why our Founding Fathers saw fit to exclude "faith" from governance. One only need look at those nation's where faith rides dominion over all aspects of life and government to be convinced that our Founding Fathers were truly enlightened men. And through this enlightenment, they crafted one of the greatest, most enduring documents in the history of the human experience, the US Constitution. Had even a pinch of faith or religion been included, our lives and our liberties would be forever changed for the worse, and we would not be enjoying our enormous freedoms, our unfettered pursuits of happiness, and our unabashed love affair with the American Dream. All hail the Founding Fathers!!! peace, jimz On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > The 1796-1797 treaty between the US and Tripoli contains Article 11, a > direct claim regarding the historical fact of the creation of this country > less than a full generation before. It was unanimously passed by the US > Senate. One would think that Senators, serving with George Washington in > his second term as president, and with many of the Founders still alive, > would have some faint recollection of the founding principles that many of > them had fought for against the Brits. A google search reveals this: > > "Article 11 has been a point of contention in disputes on the doctrine of > separation of church and state as it applies to the founding principles of > the United States. > > Article 11 reads: > > Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in > any sense, founded on the Christian religion,-as it has in itself no > character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of > Mussulmen,-and as the said States never entered into any war or act of > hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that > no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an > interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. > > Advocates of the separation of church and state claim [17] that this text > constitutes evidence that the United States Government was not founded on > the Christian religion. The Senate's ratification was only the third > recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the > Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public > dissent." > > --Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Zaleski > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:52 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Can you spell "hypocrite" ? ? ? > > The "myth" that this country was founded on Christian values is perhaps one > of the most maligned and endearing misconceptions in the history of the > American people. It was never founded upon Christian principles. Our > founding fathers were not Christians. They were Deists. While they believed > in a "Superior Being" they did not believe in the God of the Christian > bible. And while they believed that Jesus was a true historical figure, > they > did not believe he was divined. > > I'm not naive enough to believe that any true believer of the Christian > "myth" will be convinced by the information supplied by the following link, > but I thought I'd try to provide a little enlightenment. > > In sum: we are not and never were a Christian nation. Think about it, if > the > Founding Fathers were truly and devoutly Christian, don't you think they > would have exclaimed that somewhere in the constitution? Think further, > that > given that they were responsible for the birth of a new nation, don't you > think they would have created a system of government where the laws of > Christianity overshadowed the rule of law, and where Christians > (Christianity) would have dominion over all? If they believed that, why do > you think they would have made it so clear that there should be a division > between church and state? They weren't Christians, and they wanted nothing > to do with the Church. They certainly had seen the damage religion had done > to other nations, and they were determined to prevent it from happening > here. > > So please, if you are intent upon perpetuating this myth, do so with some > proof. I'm doubtful you will find any to substantiate your claim. > > http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html > > peace, > jimz > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, wrote: > > > > > What 'We' is he talking about. This nation was founded on Christian > > values and has had many Christian influences over the years. The U.S. > is > > far > > more Christian than any other belief. Most of our laws, though some are > > no, > > longer enforced are Christian based. There have been many people in > > recent > > years actively attempting to re-write history to be something it wasn't. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Mon Mar 15 10:38:18 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (oldredwagon at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:38:18 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] Health Reform by the Numbers | The White House Message-ID: <293926245.547046.1268674698498.JavaMail.brainiac@v0104-08.clearspring.local> The number for today is "1" 1 -- in every six dollars in the U.S. economy is spent on health care today. -from Department of Health and Human Services: http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/tables.pdf http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/by-the-numbers?utm_source=email40&utm_medium=image&utm_campaign=healthreform --- This message was sent by oldredwagon at verizon.net via http://addthis.com. Please note that AddThis does not verify email addresses. Make sharing easier with the AddThis Toolbar: http://www.addthis.com/go/toolbar-em From rab at jurislex.com Mon Mar 15 11:47:24 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:47:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Message-ID: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100315/459cb6fc/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Mar 15 14:24:10 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:24:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> References: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <064501cac485$daca0e90$905e2bb0$@com> Bob, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Bob Browning > > Ah, Texas, home of Dubya and other true believers . . . > > http://tinyurl.com/yag2kv3 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I find this Jefferson quote quite ironic: "Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."- Thomas Jefferson Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 15 21:06:12 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:06:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: The rules change over time. The current rules include this section, does this cover your question: TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > 1401 Nationals and citizens of United States at birth (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > I wonder if one hole remaining in our citizenship laws has ever been fixed. Although the child from an invalid marriage (or no marriage) of an American mother is automatically an American citizen, what about children of an American father and an unwed foreign mother? There are a great many elderly half-Americans in Europe and Japan, and many aging half-Americans in Korea (where they were heavily discriminated against in their childhood), and many adult half-Americans in Vietnam. (I doubt there will be many, if any, in the Middle East, due to the draconian local laws against females fraternizing with infidels, or with any unrelated male for that matter). > Dave, do you know if this situation has ever been addressed in American law? > Walt (just askin' --it wasn't me, really) Wentz From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 15 21:25:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5ECBFAD3-9096-4056-9BE8-A7BC1356AA65@teleport.com> OK, I guess, since it no longer mentions marriage, that kids sired by American servicemen (or born of American servicewomen) with an alien are now citizens. So long as the service person was willing to admit parentage (and maybe provide DNA proof), we might have an influx of new citizens with every new war. Thanks, Dave! WW On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:06 PM, David Morelli wrote: > The rules change over time. The current rules include this > section, does this cover your question: > > TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > 1401 > > Nationals and citizens of United States at birth > > (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United > States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an > alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to > the birth of such person, was physically present in the United > States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling > not less than five years, at least two of which were after > attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of > honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or > periods of employment with the United States Government or with an > international organization as that term is defined in section 288 > of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which > such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent > unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person > (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or > (B) employed by the United States Government or an international > organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included > in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this > paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or > after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become > effective in its present form on that date; > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> I wonder if one hole remaining in our citizenship laws has ever >> been fixed. Although the child from an invalid marriage (or no >> marriage) of an American mother is automatically an American >> citizen, what about children of an American father and an unwed >> foreign mother? There are a great many elderly half-Americans in >> Europe and Japan, and many aging half-Americans in Korea (where >> they were heavily discriminated against in their childhood), and >> many adult half-Americans in Vietnam. (I doubt there will be many, >> if any, in the Middle East, due to the draconian local laws >> against females fraternizing with infidels, or with any unrelated >> male for that matter). >> Dave, do you know if this situation has ever been addressed in >> American law? >> Walt (just askin' --it wasn't me, really) Wentz > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Mar 15 21:36:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:36:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <5ECBFAD3-9096-4056-9BE8-A7BC1356AA65@teleport.com> References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <5ECBFAD3-9096-4056-9BE8-A7BC1356AA65@teleport.com> Message-ID: <0E3D4798-5053-4138-9376-150C2702A65F@verizon.net> Much of our legal structure is deals with parentage and generations. Citizenship is an obvious example for issues like entry, exit and employment. I have found that much of the legal case law is based upon inheritance. Early in our history, foreigners could not inherit American property, so the citizenship was important, even when the person never set foot within the United States, or if they left as a child and never returned. David On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > OK, I guess, since it no longer mentions marriage, that kids sired by American servicemen (or born of American servicewomen) with an alien are now citizens. So long as the service person was willing to admit parentage (and maybe provide DNA proof), we might have an influx of new citizens with every new war. > Thanks, Dave! > WW From waltw at teleport.com Mon Mar 15 21:44:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <0E3D4798-5053-4138-9376-150C2702A65F@verizon.net> References: <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <5ECBFAD3-9096-4056-9BE8-A7BC1356AA65@teleport.com> <0E3D4798-5053-4138-9376-150C2702A65F@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2BEE748C-0025-47F8-8B39-1E959E47BBF2@teleport.com> Considering how even the most ancient legal systems were concerned with property, family and inheritance both of titles and estates, I suppose this is to be expected. > Much of our legal structure is deals with parentage and > generations. Citizenship is an obvious example for issues like > entry, exit and employment. I have found that much of the legal > case law is based upon inheritance. Early in our history, > foreigners could not inherit American property, so the citizenship > was important, even when the person never set foot within the > United States, or if they left as a child and never returned. > > David > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> OK, I guess, since it no longer mentions marriage, that kids sired >> by American servicemen (or born of American servicewomen) with an >> alien are now citizens. So long as the service person was willing >> to admit parentage (and maybe provide DNA proof), we might have an >> influx of new citizens with every new war. >> Thanks, Dave! >> WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 07:56:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:56:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <02d401cac40b$c4b71e60$4e255b20$@com> References: <728F233F-F425-4E42-8FE3-CAC8B02DBBA9@verizon.net> <1459984231.14590471268631452850.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <02d401cac40b$c4b71e60$4e255b20$@com> Message-ID: <961BD6D4-10BB-445E-82EC-7FF3792D2CDC@verizon.net> Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this issue remains because it is rooted in opinion rather than fact. This eligibility issue has been kicked around since Obama started his campaign. Mostly it is done to raise dust and obscure the real issues. But, there may be some who see more substance than really exists. We can try to clear the air for them. If we allow the opposition an opportunity for their best champions stand up and make their best arguments, the facts will blow away the dust cloud, and everyone can see that it is all opinion without basis in fact. It isn't like the filibuster in Congress where they can stop discussion of other issues. And those bored by the discussion have already ignored this thread. David On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:50 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > ... The reality is, it's done and over with. NO amount of bickering and bitter unhappiness about it is going to change the facts as they stand today. From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 12:04:11 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:04:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> References: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> Message-ID: I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. David On Mar 15, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > Ah, Texas, home of Dubya and other true believers . . . > > bob "just the facts, ma'am" browning > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > http://tinyurl.com/yag2kv3 > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 12:46:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:46:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, what would you like to talk about? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:04:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. David From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 16 13:02:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:02:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4B9E80BC.4020801@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <7B1FA44C-BAFF-4E49-B01A-F01E25072952@teleport.com> The Oregonian ran an article yesterday on Creationist "science" texts published for home-schoolers. Apparently no "straight" science texts are offered by that publisher. Question: If it is OK for parents to home-school their kids because local schools are too backward, overcrowded or violent to provide a quality education, is it also OK for them to home-school their kids because they want to avoid exposing them to science, scientific thinking and other concepts and processes which might conflict with the parents' religious beliefs? Is this analogous to "home-healing" your children's ailments with prayer, laying on of hands and anointing with Crisco oil because you have no money or health insurance, or because trusting in human doctors would indicate a lack of faith on your part? Walt "Just tryin' to start something, Ma'am" W-- On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:04 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would > be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? > > Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical > evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. > > David > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Ah, Texas, home of Dubya and other true believers . . . >> >> bob "just the facts, ma'am" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> http://tinyurl.com/yag2kv3 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 13:12:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:12:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <961BD6D4-10BB-445E-82EC-7FF3792D2CDC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1794048768.15302081268770335899.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I am not greatly concerned by gaffs as all humans suffer from them. All the gaffs say is that the president does not speak as well without a teleprompter than he does with one. That too seems pretty normal. What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:56:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this issue remains because it is rooted in opinion rather than fact. This eligibility issue has been kicked around since Obama started his campaign. Mostly it is done to raise dust and obscure the real issues. But, there may be some who see more substance than really exists. We can try to clear the air for them. If we allow the opposition an opportunity for their best champions stand up and make their best arguments, the facts will blow away the dust cloud, and everyone can see that it is all opinion without basis in fact. It isn't like the filibuster in Congress where they can stop discussion of other issues. And those bored by the discussion have already ignored this thread. David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 13:20:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:20:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <7B1FA44C-BAFF-4E49-B01A-F01E25072952@teleport.com> Message-ID: <875044712.15305761268770802938.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The wording you use in 'trying to start something' is telling Walt But yes, if the children get bad teaching in school, what do they need that for? What good is learning how to put a condum on a pickle? To preserve the right to maintain religious faith, home schooling might be one answer- - - -private schools another. At least it would keep the government liberalists, screwball CZARS, etc., out of the school room, and out of the private home. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:02:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . The Oregonian ran an article yesterday on Creationist "science" texts published for home-schoolers. Apparently no "straight" science texts are offered by that publisher. Question: If it is OK for parents to home-school their kids because local schools are too backward, overcrowded or violent to provide a quality education, is it also OK for them to home-school their kids because they want to avoid exposing them to science, scientific thinking and other concepts and processes which might conflict with the parents' religious beliefs? Is this analogous to "home-healing" your children's ailments with prayer, laying on of hands and anointing with Crisco oil because you have no money or health insurance, or because trusting in human doctors would indicate a lack of faith on your part? Walt "Just tryin' to start something, Ma'am" W-- On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:04 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would > be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? > > Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical > evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. > > David > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> Ah, Texas, home of Dubya and other true believers . . . >> >> bob "just the facts, ma'am" browning >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> http://tinyurl.com/yag2kv3 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 16 13:21:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> The next free lecture at the FG Public Library will feature an Oregon archaeologist who claims to have discovered ancient human DNA in Southeast Oregon. It seems that humans have arrived here in several waves, dating back much farther than previously suspected. "Prehistoric Humans in Southeastern Oregon" with Dr. Dennis Jenkins, University of Oregon Archeologist. Presented by the Friends of the Forest Grove Library Location: Rogers Room at Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific Avenue. Contact: (503) 992-3247. FREE I don't know that we have any Creationists on Grovenet, actually. Since Native Oregonians have been around since well before the traditional date of Creation, this might generate an interesting discussion. The ancient races apparently did slop around quite a bit more than previously believed. An interesting NY Times article on European DNA intruding into ancient China-- only one of several similar recent discoveries: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/science/16archeo.html?emc=eta1 And locally we have some interesting parallels between Ainu, Maori, Polynesian and Northwest Coast Indian art... WW On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the > earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. > > Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the > earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. > > The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various > locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. > > Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, > dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to > the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, > Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and > the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. > > Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, > what would you like to talk about? > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:04:11 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would > be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? > > Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical > evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 16 13:51:53 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:51:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <875044712.15305761268770802938.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <875044712.15305761268770802938.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: In a constantly-expanding pool of human knowledge, seems on the one hand that "screwballs" and "liberalists" might have a legitimate presence in an expanding curriculum... but then, others propose education should be strictly limited to an "approved" and strictly limited circle of information, heavy on Creationism and conformity, and with a grudging exposure to physical science itself, but no instruction in scientific thinking. If the former approach is taken, are we attempting to cover too much ground, leaving students confused, overwhelmed and/or bored? If the latter, are we imposing a mental straitjacket that will hamper individuals' thinking for the rest of their lives, and endanger America's future position in scientific discovery and innovation? Any teachers are welcome to jump in here and give their take on the question... On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > The wording you use in 'trying to start something' is telling Walt > > > But yes, if the children get bad teaching in school, what do they > need that for? What good is learning how to put a condum on a pickle? > > To preserve the right to maintain religious faith, home schooling > might be one answer- - - -private schools another. > > At least it would keep the government liberalists, screwball CZARS, > etc., out of the school room, and out of the private home. > > donkelly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:02:14 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > The Oregonian ran an article yesterday on Creationist "science" > texts published for home-schoolers. Apparently no "straight" science > texts are offered by that publisher. > Question: If it is OK for parents to home-school their kids because > local schools are too backward, overcrowded or violent to provide a > quality education, is it also OK for them to home-school their kids > because they want to avoid exposing them to science, scientific > thinking and other concepts and processes which might conflict with > the parents' religious beliefs? > Is this analogous to "home-healing" your children's ailments with > prayer, laying on of hands and anointing with Crisco oil because you > have no money or health insurance, or because trusting in human > doctors would indicate a lack of faith on your part? > > Walt "Just tryin' to start something, Ma'am" W-- > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:04 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would >> be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? >> >> Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical >> evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. >> >> David >> >> On Mar 15, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >>> Ah, Texas, home of Dubya and other true believers . . . >>> >>> bob "just the facts, ma'am" browning >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/yag2kv3 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Mar 16 14:23:06 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:23:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D3172326@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, spoke on the PU campus two years ago and pointed out that the Babylonians had invented beer about 2,000 years before Bishop Ussher's "young earth" date going back 6,000 years. Hoppily yours, --Mike ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz [waltw at teleport.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:21 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . The next free lecture at the FG Public Library will feature an Oregon archaeologist who claims to have discovered ancient human DNA in Southeast Oregon. It seems that humans have arrived here in several waves, dating back much farther than previously suspected. "Prehistoric Humans in Southeastern Oregon" with Dr. Dennis Jenkins, University of Oregon Archeologist. Presented by the Friends of the Forest Grove Library Location: Rogers Room at Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific Avenue. Contact: (503) 992-3247. FREE I don't know that we have any Creationists on Grovenet, actually. Since Native Oregonians have been around since well before the traditional date of Creation, this might generate an interesting discussion. The ancient races apparently did slop around quite a bit more than previously believed. An interesting NY Times article on European DNA intruding into ancient China-- only one of several similar recent discoveries: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/science/16archeo.html?emc=eta1 And locally we have some interesting parallels between Ainu, Maori, Polynesian and Northwest Coast Indian art... WW On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the > earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. > > Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the > earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. > > The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various > locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. > > Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, > dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to > the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, > Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and > the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. > > Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, > what would you like to talk about? > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:04:11 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would > be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? > > Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical > evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 16 14:41:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D3172326@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D3172326@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <76151FF0-8800-4AF4-8915-6405A2BA7DBF@teleport.com> Yep! In fact, the invention of beer might well have played a part in the invention of religion. What might have inspired the idea of Paradise better than a happy beer buzz? What but the Morning After might have inspired the concept of Hell? WW On Mar 16, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, spoke on the PU campus > two years ago and pointed out that the Babylonians had invented > beer about 2,000 years before Bishop Ussher's "young earth" date > going back 6,000 years. > > Hoppily yours, > > --Mike > ________________________________________ > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz [waltw at teleport.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:21 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > The next free lecture at the FG Public Library will feature an Oregon > archaeologist who claims to have discovered ancient human DNA in > Southeast Oregon. It seems that humans have arrived here in several > waves, dating back much farther than previously suspected. > "Prehistoric Humans in Southeastern Oregon" with Dr. Dennis Jenkins, > University of Oregon Archeologist. > Presented by the Friends of the Forest Grove Library > Location: Rogers Room at Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific > Avenue. > Contact: (503) 992-3247. FREE > > I don't know that we have any Creationists on Grovenet, actually. > Since Native Oregonians have been around since well before the > traditional date of Creation, this might generate an interesting > discussion. The ancient races apparently did slop around quite a bit > more than previously believed. An interesting NY Times article on > European DNA intruding into ancient China-- only one of several > similar recent discoveries: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/science/16archeo.html?emc=eta1 > > And locally we have some interesting parallels between Ainu, Maori, > Polynesian and Northwest Coast Indian art... > > WW > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the >> earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. >> >> Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the >> earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. >> >> The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various >> locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. >> >> Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, >> dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to >> the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, >> Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and >> the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. >> >> Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, >> what would you like to talk about? >> >> don >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: David Morelli >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:04:11 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> I wonder if Oregon has any supporters of Creation Science who would >> be interested in discussing it on Grovenet? >> >> Their "science" has seemed a bit thin compared to the physical >> evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old. >> >> David >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 17:29:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:29:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <5ECBFAD3-9096-4056-9BE8-A7BC1356AA65@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1439818456.15418701268785789735.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> 1952 heh? I wonder why they didn't make the law retroactive to 1960 instead of 1952. So if anyone knows, when was this signed into law, and who (what president) signed it into law? ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 04:25:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs OK, I guess, since it no longer mentions marriage, that kids sired by American servicemen (or born of American servicewomen) with an alien are now citizens. So long as the service person was willing to admit parentage (and maybe provide DNA proof), we might have an influx of new citizens with every new war. Thanks, Dave! WW On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:06 PM, David Morelli wrote: > The rules change over time. The current rules include this > section, does this cover your question: > > TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part I > 1401 > > Nationals and citizens of United States at birth > > (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United > States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an > alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to > the birth of such person, was physically present in the United > States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling > not less than five years, at least two of which were after > attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of > honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or > periods of employment with the United States Government or with an > international organization as that term is defined in section 288 > of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which > such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent > unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person > (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or > (B) employed by the United States Government or an international > organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included > in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this > paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or > after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become > effective in its present form on that date; > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> I wonder if one hole remaining in our citizenship laws has ever >> been fixed. Although the child from an invalid marriage (or no >> marriage) of an American mother is automatically an American >> citizen, what about children of an American father and an unwed >> foreign mother? There are a great many elderly half-Americans in >> Europe and Japan, and many aging half-Americans in Korea (where >> they were heavily discriminated against in their childhood), and >> many adult half-Americans in Vietnam. (I doubt there will be many, >> if any, in the Middle East, due to the draconian local laws >> against females fraternizing with infidels, or with any unrelated >> male for that matter). >> Dave, do you know if this situation has ever been addressed in >> American law? >> Walt (just askin' --it wasn't me, really) Wentz > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From khourym at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 18:40:06 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:40:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes Message-ID: <73337606-7CCC-4C33-AB96-4766CA772DE0@verizon.net> For those of you doing your own taxes, be sure to check out the "Making Work Pay" tax CREDIT 1040 line 63 If you qualify, it's money in your pocket. We'd have missed it if a friend didn't point it out. If you qualify and would have missed it otherwise, you can owe me a coffee at BJs! Martha K. From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 21:00:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:00:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1794048768.15302081268770335899.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1794048768.15302081268770335899.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6B8C75E9-6D0B-4119-93D6-816CB409A311@verizon.net> Have you looked at the images at http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html If so, what remains "hidden"? David On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... > What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. > > There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. > > Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 21:12:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:12:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <6B8C75E9-6D0B-4119-93D6-816CB409A311@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1585889931.15506081268799121578.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What is missing? Everything that could prove who he is and what he is, including his birth certificate. What he released is his COLB. If you will check all sources you will find that no one has seen his birth certificate, no one, not the five major news agencies, no one. And whom wrote that report, and why did that person write it. It's just another coverup lie- - - -and the beat goes on. Someone said if you tell a lie enough times, people will begin to believe it. I'll believe it when I see it. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Have you looked at the images at http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html If so, what remains "hidden"? David On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... > What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. > > There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. > > Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 21:18:50 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:18:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs References: <1585889931.15506081268799121578.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <008776FDA3304C3FB3CA366D9A01BB2A@EdsPortable> David, his mind is made up! Don't confuse him with facts! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > What is missing? > > Everything that could prove who he is and what he is, including his birth certificate. > > What he released is his COLB. If you will check all sources you will find that no one has seen his birth certificate, no one, not the five major news agencies, no one. > > And whom wrote that report, and why did that person write it. It's just another coverup lie- - - -and the beat goes on. > > Someone said if you tell a lie enough times, people will begin to believe it. > > I'll believe it when I see it. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Have you looked at the images at > http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html > > If so, what remains "hidden"? > > David > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> ... >> What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. >> >> There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. >> >> Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 21:27:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:27:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <008776FDA3304C3FB3CA366D9A01BB2A@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <186267649.15511001268800033810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, I know what Hawaian birth certificates look like, and a COLB is not it and not even close. I have the real thing on my hard drive from a women who had twins on the same day Obama was supposed to have been born. Her birth certificates look authentic, almost like BC's issued for my eight children in California. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Davie To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:18:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs David, his mind is made up! Don't confuse him with facts! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > What is missing? > > Everything that could prove who he is and what he is, including his birth certificate. > > What he released is his COLB. If you will check all sources you will find that no one has seen his birth certificate, no one, not the five major news agencies, no one. > > And whom wrote that report, and why did that person write it. It's just another coverup lie- - - -and the beat goes on. > > Someone said if you tell a lie enough times, people will begin to believe it. > > I'll believe it when I see it. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Have you looked at the images at > http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html > > If so, what remains "hidden"? > > David > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> ... >> What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. >> >> There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. >> >> Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 21:35:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:35:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <008776FDA3304C3FB3CA366D9A01BB2A@EdsPortable> Message-ID: <1109189793.15513631268800557835.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> For those who believe what they read. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/ This is preposterous of course, but some people believe it anyway. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Davie To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:18:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs David, his mind is made up! Don't confuse him with facts! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "donkelly" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > What is missing? > > Everything that could prove who he is and what he is, including his birth certificate. > > What he released is his COLB. If you will check all sources you will find that no one has seen his birth certificate, no one, not the five major news agencies, no one. > > And whom wrote that report, and why did that person write it. It's just another coverup lie- - - -and the beat goes on. > > Someone said if you tell a lie enough times, people will begin to believe it. > > I'll believe it when I see it. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Have you looked at the images at > http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html > > If so, what remains "hidden"? > > David > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> ... >> What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. >> >> There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. >> >> Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 21:48:28 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:48:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1439818456.15418701268785789735.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1439818456.15418701268785789735.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <977B1A96-6B76-4D01-8A1C-DF1EC00B25F9@verizon.net> The Immigration and Nationalization laws go back a long time with a lot of changes. The 1952 date likely was chosen mesh with the McCarran-Walter Act (Immigration and Naturalization) of Dec 24, 1952. There were other acts as well, Johnson-Reed Act of 1924, Luce -Celler Act of 1946, Hart-Celler Act of 1965, 1980 refugee act, 1990 Immigration Act and the Imigration and Naturalization Act of 1996. Depending upon which part of the code was changed by different acts, the effective dates could be different. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 5:29 PM, donkelly wrote: > 1952 heh? I wonder why they didn't make the law retroactive to 1960 instead of 1952. > > So if anyone knows, when was this signed into law, and who (what president) signed it into law? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 22:03:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:03:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <6B8C75E9-6D0B-4119-93D6-816CB409A311@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1846734955.15521161268802238968.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Attached is a blank copy of a standard United States Birth Certificate. This form filled out has never been seen by anyone who admitted it. You check it out, compare it to the green form provided by the president, then see if there are any differences. I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Have you looked at the images at http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html If so, what remains "hidden"? David On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... > What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. > > There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. > > Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to know. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: United_States_long_form_birth_certificate.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118115 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100317/729bf88b/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 22:05:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <977B1A96-6B76-4D01-8A1C-DF1EC00B25F9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <590930069.15521451268802334524.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Thanks David. In fairness I will check it out. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:48:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs The Immigration and Nationalization laws go back a long time with a lot of changes. The 1952 date likely was chosen mesh with the McCarran-Walter Act (Immigration and Naturalization) of Dec 24, 1952. There were other acts as well, Johnson-Reed Act of 1924, Luce -Celler Act of 1946, Hart-Celler Act of 1965, 1980 refugee act, 1990 Immigration Act and the Imigration and Naturalization Act of 1996. Depending upon which part of the code was changed by different acts, the effective dates could be different. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 5:29 PM, donkelly wrote: > 1952 heh? I wonder why they didn't make the law retroactive to 1960 instead of 1952. > > So if anyone knows, when was this signed into law, and who (what president) signed it into law? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 22:10:34 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:10:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <186267649.15511001268800033810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <186267649.15511001268800033810.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No doubt that you recognize Hawaiian Birth Certificates, you may even recognize Hawaiian Certificates of Live Birth. And then there are Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth. So, how are they different for important stuff, like knowing if someone was born within Hawaii? Hawaii has an indigenous people, and they have certain legal status. So, what document is used to determine who is a "real" Hawaiian? "Primary Documents Birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth) and Certificates ofHawaiian Birth are the primary documents used to determine native Hawaiian qualification. The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth (original birth certificate) and Certifications of Live Birth because they are official government records documenting an individual?s birth. The Certificate of Live Birth generally has more information which is useful for genealogical purposes as compared to the Certification ofLive Birth which is a computer-generated printout that provides specific details of a person?s birth. Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth." http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl BTW, the site is a hawaiian state government site. So, if it is good enough for the state of Hawaii to determine native Hawaiians, why isn't it good enough for you? David On Mar 16, 2010, at 9:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well, I know what Hawaian birth certificates look like, and a COLB is not it and not even close. I have the real thing on my hard drive from a women who had twins on the same day Obama was supposed to have been born. Her birth certificates look authentic, almost like BC's issued for my eight children in California. From allnutt at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 22:19:58 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:19:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1846734955.15521161268802238968.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1846734955.15521161268802238968.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: You may not realize this, but birth certificates are issued by the individual states if you claim to be born in one of them. (If you are born on a military base they are different.) My kids were born in Oregon so they have Oregon birth certificates, not 'Standard US Birth Certificates'. So I don't see how comparing a 'standard US Birth Certificate' to a legitimate Hawaiian one will solve anything. And no one admitted filling out a form???????? Are you talking about Obama's? (Lots of people have admitted seeing it.) Or are you talking about something that a conspiracy theorist filled out? (why admit that?) Katie On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > Attached is a blank copy of a standard United States Birth > Certificate. > > This form filled out has never been seen by anyone who admitted it. > > You check it out, compare it to the green form provided by the > president, then see if there are any differences. > > I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Have you looked at the images at > http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html > > If so, what remains "hidden"? > > David > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> ... >> What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a >> person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. >> >> There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con >> throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. >> >> Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done >> deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to >> know. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________ > ________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 22:40:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:40:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54347544.15527651268804444052.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> My birth certificate is like the US standard one. It is filled out by hand and copied in that manner. I have it next to me and it is a copy of the long form, not a short form COLB generated bu computer. Not sure how the laws of citizenship view the difference. Guess we will see as there is a lawsuit in court as we speak to establish that. Hawaii says both forms are legal. Sooooo we shall see I hope. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:19:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs You may not realize this, but birth certificates are issued by the individual states if you claim to be born in one of them. (If you are born on a military base they are different.) My kids were born in Oregon so they have Oregon birth certificates, not 'Standard US Birth Certificates'. So I don't see how comparing a 'standard US Birth Certificate' to a legitimate Hawaiian one will solve anything. And no one admitted filling out a form???????? Are you talking about Obama's? (Lots of people have admitted seeing it.) Or are you talking about something that a conspiracy theorist filled out? (why admit that?) Katie On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > Attached is a blank copy of a standard United States Birth > Certificate. > > This form filled out has never been seen by anyone who admitted it. > > You check it out, compare it to the green form provided by the > president, then see if there are any differences. > > I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:00:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > Have you looked at the images at > http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html > > If so, what remains "hidden"? > > David > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> ... >> What does bother me is conventional wisdom holds true that if a >> person hides the records of his past, he has something to hide. >> >> There has been plenty of hyperbole elucidated pro and con >> throughout the factual, and speculative, spectrum. >> >> Until we know what the president is hiding, this is not a done >> deal. Enquiring minds need to know, and Americans have a right to >> know. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________ > ________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 22:55:07 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:55:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net> Also include the estimation for the natural Oklo uranium reactor. http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be on the same side of the discussion. It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can hope. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. > > Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. > > The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. > > Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. > > Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, what would you like to talk about? > > don From waltw at teleport.com Tue Mar 16 23:04:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:04:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1846734955.15521161268802238968.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1846734955.15521161268802238968.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7BA4C272-F7C6-4835-B443-C0311F4F8B79@teleport.com> > > > I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Mar 16 23:16:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:16:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <54347544.15527651268804444052.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <54347544.15527651268804444052.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <898FEA4A-E28B-419E-B231-2D7D58E5035D@verizon.net> Hawaii sets the standard for births in Hawaii. Congress sets the standard for "citizenship at birth". Lynch v. Clark set the standard that every person born in the United States is a "natural born citizen". Massachusetts set the standard that "natural born citizen" is an American term. What more is there to determine? I appreciate that many people do not want Obama to be the President. The birth question is just a way for some people to reconcile a desire to support a strict interpretation of the Constitution while denying the result of the election. Obama was elected in accord with the Constitution, the election was legal. Hey, I still think the Supreme Court overstepped the Constitution when they stopped the recount required by Florida election law in Bush v. Gore. That meant that G.W. Bush got to be President. He was a really poor example of the office, but he really was the President. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:40 PM, donkelly wrote: > My birth certificate is like the US standard one. > It is filled out by hand and copied in that manner. I have it next to me and it is a copy of the long form, not a short form COLB generated bu computer. > Not sure how the laws of citizenship view the difference. > Guess we will see as there is a lawsuit in court as we speak to establish that. > Hawaii says both forms are legal. Sooooo we shall see I hope. > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 23:23:00 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:23:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> How one would find, document, and report an error would be a challenge. Of note is nature's ability to concentrate minerals, like pure silica found in geostones located in east Iowa and other places. On another note is how various colors of silica replaced the cellulose cells to form petrified wood. The cause of course was volcanic activity + several other simultaneous physical acts coupled with great pressure, and the result a million years or so later was petrified wood. If natural processes can degrade uranium to plutonium, and that process could be duplicated by man, using centrafuges could become a technological innovation of the past. And where it happened could make a country super rich. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Also include the estimation for the natural Oklo uranium reactor. http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be on the same side of the discussion. It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can hope. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. > > Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. > > The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. > > Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, to the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. > > Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, what would you like to talk about? > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 23:34:05 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:34:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <898FEA4A-E28B-419E-B231-2D7D58E5035D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1280137631.15534191268807645027.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The difference may be we were hurt a little in Florida, but few invision the hurt hurt we are in for now. I respect the office, but have every reason to distrust the man. I like discussing science better. It is more predictable, and ACORN cannot fraudulently skew our findings. don PS: The real Hawaii birth certificate looks like the US version I attached, with differences minimal. They are hand written and hand signed. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:16:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Hawaii sets the standard for births in Hawaii. Congress sets the standard for "citizenship at birth". Lynch v. Clark set the standard that every person born in the United States is a "natural born citizen". Massachusetts set the standard that "natural born citizen" is an American term. What more is there to determine? I appreciate that many people do not want Obama to be the President. The birth question is just a way for some people to reconcile a desire to support a strict interpretation of the Constitution while denying the result of the election. Obama was elected in accord with the Constitution, the election was legal. Hey, I still think the Supreme Court overstepped the Constitution when they stopped the recount required by Florida election law in Bush v. Gore. That meant that G.W. Bush got to be President. He was a really poor example of the office, but he really was the President. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:40 PM, donkelly wrote: > My birth certificate is like the US standard one. > It is filled out by hand and copied in that manner. I have it next to me and it is a copy of the long form, not a short form COLB generated bu computer. > Not sure how the laws of citizenship view the difference. > Guess we will see as there is a lawsuit in court as we speak to establish that. > Hawaii says both forms are legal. Sooooo we shall see I hope. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Mar 16 23:37:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:37:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <7BA4C272-F7C6-4835-B443-C0311F4F8B79@teleport.com> Message-ID: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on that one. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > > I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 00:12:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:12:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1280137631.15534191268807645027.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1280137631.15534191268807645027.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: The push by the petroleum industry after the Florida event has hurt us plenty. After our allies in Afghanistan threw out the Taliban, we turned our back on them when the money was diverted to the Iraq buildup. Our military was tied down in Iraq while Korea was going nuclear. Iran's government got eight years of internal cohesion thanks to their perception of the US as an enemy next door that was on a "Crusade" against Muslims. Science that could replace carbon combustion was shelved. For all intents and purposes, it was like the oil lobby owned the Administration. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:34 PM, donkelly wrote: > The difference may be we were hurt a little in Florida, but few invision the hurt hurt we are in for now. > > I respect the office, but have every reason to distrust the man. > > I like discussing science better. It is more predictable, and ACORN cannot fraudulently skew our findings. > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 00:22:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:22:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <581153283.15537481268810531153.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> cannot disagree with that. But we are in for a wild ride, and huge raises in cost of living. We don't have the money (nationally) to do otherwise, unless the government decides to cut back on expenses. But don't count on it. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:12:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs The push by the petroleum industry after the Florida event has hurt us plenty. After our allies in Afghanistan threw out the Taliban, we turned our back on them when the money was diverted to the Iraq buildup. Our military was tied down in Iraq while Korea was going nuclear. Iran's government got eight years of internal cohesion thanks to their perception of the US as an enemy next door that was on a "Crusade" against Muslims. Science that could replace carbon combustion was shelved. For all intents and purposes, it was like the oil lobby owned the Administration. David On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:34 PM, donkelly wrote: > The difference may be we were hurt a little in Florida, but few invision the hurt hurt we are in for now. > > I respect the office, but have every reason to distrust the man. > > I like discussing science better. It is more predictable, and ACORN cannot fraudulently skew our findings. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Mar 17 06:11:05 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:11:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Happy St. Patricks Day Message-ID: <10073-4BA0D4E9-3944@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> It think today would a good day to pin a real small Doug Fir a bit of ole green for Saint Paddy! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100317/79e7a070/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://exclusives.250free.com/html5/HSPDGarfield.html From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 07:37:07 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:37:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <1280137631.15534191268807645027.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: David, You have an amazing amount of patience! I could use some of that sometime, because I lost mine about 20 posts ago. Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:12 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > The push by the petroleum industry after the Florida event has hurt us > plenty. After our allies in Afghanistan threw out the Taliban, we turned > our back on them when the money was diverted to the Iraq buildup. Our > military was tied down in Iraq while Korea was going nuclear. Iran's > government got eight years of internal cohesion thanks to their perception > of the US as an enemy next door that was on a "Crusade" against Muslims. > Science that could replace carbon combustion was shelved. For all intents > and purposes, it was like the oil lobby owned the Administration. > > David > > > On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:34 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The difference may be we were hurt a little in Florida, but few invision >> the hurt hurt we are in for now. >> >> I respect the office, but have every reason to distrust the man. >> >> I like discussing science better. It is more predictable, and ACORN >> cannot fraudulently skew our findings. >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 07:56:41 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:56:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <898FEA4A-E28B-419E-B231-2D7D58E5035D@verizon.net> References: <54347544.15527651268804444052.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <898FEA4A-E28B-419E-B231-2D7D58E5035D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000101cac5e2$0e712fa0$2b538ee0$@net> Really? The correct path for Gore to redress the issue was with the Florida legislature. Instead, Gore went to the State Court system. The Supreme court said this was the case and set aside the Florida court ruling. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:17 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > > Hey, I still think the Supreme Court overstepped the Constitution when > they stopped the recount required by Florida election law in Bush v. > Gore. That meant that G.W. Bush got to be President. He was a really > poor example of the office, but he really was the President. > > David > From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 07:56:41 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:56:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001cac5e2$0e37f730$2aa7e590$@net> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey showed a 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from Hunter Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have been near perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/G would have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of seeds making the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the Golden Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could describe an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I liked to read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and verified his info with local tales and folk lore. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of David Morelli > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be on the > same side of the discussion. > > It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can > hope. From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 08:46:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae is another example. All the iron used in ancient northern Europe (in forging Viking swords, etc) was bog iron, which had to be folded and hammered repeatedly in forging to get out most of the impurities, resulting in the damascene appearance of the blades. The problem from a human standpoint is, the concentration both of iron and of uranium by microorganisms is a very slow process. Whether the uranium-concentrating organism has any modern representatives I don't know. If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water, I imagine any other life form in the immediate area would either die, or become super-hardy itself. Cockroaches are supposedly highly resistant to radiation, meaning they might be one of the few survivors of a major war. And they are very ancient. Perhaps this is significant? If one could genetically create a super-microorganism to concentrate uranium, one could either use it to clean up groundwater contamination (a major concern at Hanford, which will eventually leach into the Columbia River) or, as you suggest, to produce nuclear fuel. But if the process is geologically slow, it might not be practicable for human needs. An interesting question! On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:23 PM, donkelly wrote: > How one would find, document, and report an error would be a > challenge. > > Of note is nature's ability to concentrate minerals, like pure > silica found in geostones located in east Iowa and other places. > > On another note is how various colors of silica replaced the > cellulose cells to form petrified wood. > > The cause of course was volcanic activity + several other > simultaneous physical acts coupled with great pressure, and the > result a million years or so later was petrified wood. > > If natural processes can degrade uranium to plutonium, and that > process could be duplicated by man, using centrafuges could become > a technological innovation of the past. And where it happened could > make a country super rich. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:55:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Also include the estimation for the natural Oklo uranium reactor. > http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/ > Lovelock_Oklo.html > > Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be on > the same side of the discussion. > > It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can > hope. > > David > On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the >> earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. >> >> Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the >> earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. >> >> The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various >> locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. >> >> Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, >> dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, >> to the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, >> Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and >> the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. >> >> Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, >> what would you like to talk about? >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 08:57:50 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:57:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. > Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on > that one. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > >> >> >> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. > > Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 09:09:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <000001cac5e2$0e37f730$2aa7e590$@net> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net> <000001cac5e2$0e37f730$2aa7e590$@net> Message-ID: <9D021544-D097-4DD4-8F16-D8012CB78E6C@teleport.com> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those floods. Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding thereafter as if in fact it was. On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey > showed a > 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from > Hunter > Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have > been near > perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ > G would > have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of > seeds making > the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the > Golden > Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. > > Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could > describe > an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. > > But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I > liked to > read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and > verified his > info with local tales and folk lore. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >> on the >> same side of the discussion. >> >> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >> hope. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 09:46:26 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:46:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: OK - so now I had to go take a look at my birth certificate because I didn't remember what information was included. It's important to know there are lots of different records of birth within the United States, and and even more variation among different governments. My original birth certificate is a laminated card which looks a lot like a driver's license. It has a blue border with the title "Province of Ontario" at the top - yes, I was born in Canada. It includes my name, DOB, sex, location of birth, date of registration, number and issue date. This information was typed very neatly next to the printed title. Also printed on the card is a replicaq of the signature of the Deputy Registrar-General (whoever that is). I found it interesting that my mother's or father's name wasn't listed anywhere. Nor is there a footprint or other identifying information - other than the fact that the card is in my possession. It's a good think I have no political aspirations and no one is questioning me! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:57 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one > requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the > standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as > convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of > being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio > hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth > certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative > photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by > California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's > certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was > applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully > nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. > On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. >> Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on >> that one. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> >>> >>> >>> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. >> >> Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From obrzl at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 09:53:51 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <552761.37915.qm@web84206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The great Hank Williams put it thus: ? "A distant uncle passed away, and left me quite a stash; And I was livin' high until that fateful day, A Lawyer proved I wasn't born'd, but only hatched!" ? ??? .????? .????? . --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Marian Cakarnis wrote: From: Marian Cakarnis Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 4:46 PM OK - so now I had to go take a look at my birth certificate because I didn't remember what information was included.? It's important to know there are lots of different records of birth within the United States, and and even more variation among different governments. My original birth certificate is a laminated card which looks a lot like a driver's license.? It has a blue border with the title "Province of Ontario" at the top - yes, I was born in Canada.? It includes my name, DOB, sex, location of birth, date of registration, number and issue date.? This information was typed very neatly next to the printed title.? Also printed on the card is a replicaq of the signature of the Deputy Registrar-General (whoever that is). I found it interesting that my mother's or father's name wasn't listed anywhere.? Nor is there a footprint or other identifying information - other than the fact that the card is in my possession. It's a good think I have no political aspirations and no one is questioning me! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:57 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one > requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the > standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as > convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of > being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio > hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth > certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative > photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by > California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's > certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was > applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully > nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. > On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. >> Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on >> that one. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> >>> >>> >>> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. >> >> Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 10:18:43 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:18:43 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <9D021544-D097-4DD4-8F16-D8012CB78E6C@teleport.com> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net><000001cac5e2$0e37f730$2aa7e590$@net><9D021544-D097-4DD4-8F16-D8012CB78E6C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1695069046-1268846324-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1614723501-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those floods. Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding thereafter as if in fact it was. On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey > showed a > 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from > Hunter > Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have > been near > perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ > G would > have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of > seeds making > the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the > Golden > Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. > > Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could > describe > an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. > > But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I > liked to > read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and > verified his > info with local tales and folk lore. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >> on the >> same side of the discussion. >> >> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >> hope. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 10:28:55 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:28:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1695069046-1268846324-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1614723501-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><8C04ED43-0BE4-4D8F-A814-3EA73AB70627@verizon.net><000001cac5e2$0e37f730$2aa7e590$@net><9D021544-D097-4DD4-8F16-D8012CB78E6C@teleport.com> <1695069046-1268846324-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1614723501-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders that dammed the river for a time. WW On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: > The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through > its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend > of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something > to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging > from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans > around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those > floods. > > Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he > attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then > prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding > thereafter as if in fact it was. > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >> showed a >> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >> Hunter >> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >> been near >> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >> G would >> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >> seeds making >> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >> Golden >> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >> >> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >> describe >> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >> >> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >> liked to >> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >> verified his >> info with local tales and folk lore. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>> on the >>> same side of the discussion. >>> >>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>> hope. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Mar 17 10:30:35 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:30:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: References: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D56B559F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Marian...I also have a plastic card...in my case, from Virginia, with DOB and a "birth Number" that runs for about 10 digits. Since such cards were not used in my birth year, 1945, the card is obviously an ex post facto device, in this case from 1970. The "birth number" gets you to the original document on file in Richmond. There is no reference to "a standard United States Birth Certificate." Interestingly, I'm the only one of my father's three sons born in the US. My younger brother was born in 1947 in Pearl Harbor, long before Hawaii became a state...my older brother was born in the Panama Canal Zone in 1937 (much like Sen. McCain). No one has ever doubted the rights of my brothers to run for office. Skip, my older brother, served 30 years in the Navy. And, of course, Sen. McCain has run for president as well as other offices. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:46 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs OK - so now I had to go take a look at my birth certificate because I didn't remember what information was included. It's important to know there are lots of different records of birth within the United States, and and even more variation among different governments. My original birth certificate is a laminated card which looks a lot like a driver's license. It has a blue border with the title "Province of Ontario" at the top - yes, I was born in Canada. It includes my name, DOB, sex, location of birth, date of registration, number and issue date. This information was typed very neatly next to the printed title. Also printed on the card is a replicaq of the signature of the Deputy Registrar-General (whoever that is). I found it interesting that my mother's or father's name wasn't listed anywhere. Nor is there a footprint or other identifying information - other than the fact that the card is in my possession. It's a good think I have no political aspirations and no one is questioning me! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:57 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one > requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the > standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as > convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of > being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio > hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth > certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative > photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by > California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's > certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was > applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully > nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. > On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. >> Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on >> that one. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> >>> >>> >>> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. >> >> Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 10:43:25 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D56B559F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <662243000.15534411268807828890.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D56B559F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1CF13FC111D5438DB2FE8BA826FA773E@JeffVAIO> I was born in 1959, so it's not like my card is all that recent. But then, Canadians are sometimes more progressive at managing information and services :) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:30 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Marian...I also have a plastic card...in my case, from Virginia, with DOB > and a "birth Number" that runs for about 10 digits. Since such cards were > not used in my birth year, 1945, the card is obviously an ex post facto > device, in this case from 1970. The "birth number" gets you to the > original document on file in Richmond. There is no reference to "a > standard United States Birth Certificate." > > Interestingly, I'm the only one of my father's three sons born in the US. > My younger brother was born in 1947 in Pearl Harbor, long before Hawaii > became a state...my older brother was born in the Panama Canal Zone in > 1937 (much like Sen. McCain). No one has ever doubted the rights of my > brothers to run for office. Skip, my older brother, served 30 years in > the Navy. And, of course, Sen. McCain has run for president as well as > other offices. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:46 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > > OK - so now I had to go take a look at my birth certificate because I > didn't > remember what information was included. It's important to know there are > lots of different records of birth within the United States, and and even > more variation among different governments. > > My original birth certificate is a laminated card which looks a lot like a > driver's license. It has a blue border with the title "Province of > Ontario" > at the top - yes, I was born in Canada. It includes my name, DOB, sex, > location of birth, date of registration, number and issue date. This > information was typed very neatly next to the printed title. Also printed > on the card is a replicaq of the signature of the Deputy Registrar-General > (whoever that is). > > I found it interesting that my mother's or father's name wasn't listed > anywhere. Nor is there a footprint or other identifying information - > other > than the fact that the card is in my possession. > > It's a good think I have no political aspirations and no one is > questioning > me! > Marian > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Walt Wentz" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:57 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > >> Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one >> requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the >> standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as >> convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of >> being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio >> hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth >> certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative >> photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by >> California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's >> certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was >> applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully >> nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. >> On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. >>> Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on >>> that one. >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. >>> >>> Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 11:07:28 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:07:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Taxes In-Reply-To: <73337606-7CCC-4C33-AB96-4766CA772DE0@verizon.net> References: <73337606-7CCC-4C33-AB96-4766CA772DE0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2AB521A1-7BD9-40A8-BA1D-BDF6BE3875ED@verizon.net> Good advice. I do mine by hand to estimate and then when we sit down to do taxes officially we use an off the shelf tax software package. Sure enough, I would have missed it and the software caught it. (I'll still buy you a coffee sometime though.) And since it is St. Pat's day (hope everyone has some green on) it is a good time to say Thank You president Obama for actually making my taxes go down. This credit is one that has helped. We are in turn trying to spend it locally to boost the businesses here. (Shout out to Pac Thai who will get some of it for sure). Katie On Mar 16, 2010, at 6:40 PM, Martha Khoury wrote: > For those of you doing your own taxes, be sure to check out the > "Making Work Pay" tax CREDIT > > 1040 line 63 > > If you qualify, it's money in your pocket. > > We'd have missed it if a friend didn't point it out. > > If you qualify and would have missed it otherwise, you can owe me a > coffee at BJs! > > Martha K. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 12:49:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:49:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D56B559F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Hi all. I think the thread is about played out, but part with some thought provolking incidents: Read, investigate, decide for yourself. Birthers: Two Attorney Generals and a Governor question birth information. http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Virginia_AG_Obama_birth_certificate_will_get_tested.html Pass Porters: President's passport files hacked three times, NBC did not report it, the President (Senator at the time) was upset, clearly shaken when speaking publicly of the events: The hackers are known, one still works for the government, but none of the three are talking, and a witness is dead. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23736254/ Passport peeking is a big deal on Hillery and Me. These issues were initiated months before any question of duel citizenship, or birth certificates were mentioned. What is so bad with viewing passport information, name, date of birth, resident address, and country visited? Is that totally safe information? http://www.hillarynme.com/2009/02/27/obama-passort-breach-birth-certificate-tie-ins-olbermann-connects-the-dots/ President, then Senator, admitted to visiting Afganistan in 1981, two weeks after his passport file was hacked. The main witness to the hacking is dead, shot in the head. 1981 Pakistan and Afganistan were closed to Americans, no American Citizen could get a passport to travel there. Again, the passport it'self alone is amazing, but information on the passport was telling of more than the president admitted. Again, the main witness is dead and the others aren't talking. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/02/john-brennan-involved-in-obama-passport-breach.html Occidental College transcripts and application for enrollment for Barry Obama or alternate name, remain sealed. Same for two other universities attended, so says the president. For the record, Barry Obama did not attend Occidental with money from Indonesia. Off the record nothing was said where tuition and books and housing came from. Obama was a poor kid of 19, yet he managed to attend school and visit Afganistan and Pakistan in the same year, without visible financing? http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp Tax Returns: None on record for a Barry Sotero, Berry Obama, or Barack Hussein (or H) Obama, between the years of 1980 and 1985. Yet he had to have income of some kind during those years. Tax returns of record do exist for 2000 thru 2009, but no identifiable tax filing records found for years 1980 thru 2000. Anyone interested can do the footwork again and learn from over 250 sources what I learned. It is accepted that not all records, even under ordinary circumstances, could be accessed via the internet. Same here as some information like occidental) arrived by Fax or Phone. In my opinion it is a no brainer to assume that no one would spend nearly one million dollers to seal records of their past, unless there were multiple things in those records that had to be hidden. Where there is smoke, there is fire. You read, you decide. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:30:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs Marian...I also have a plastic card...in my case, from Virginia, with DOB and a "birth Number" that runs for about 10 digits. Since such cards were not used in my birth year, 1945, the card is obviously an ex post facto device, in this case from 1970. The "birth number" gets you to the original document on file in Richmond. There is no reference to "a standard United States Birth Certificate." Interestingly, I'm the only one of my father's three sons born in the US. My younger brother was born in 1947 in Pearl Harbor, long before Hawaii became a state...my older brother was born in the Panama Canal Zone in 1937 (much like Sen. McCain). No one has ever doubted the rights of my brothers to run for office. Skip, my older brother, served 30 years in the Navy. And, of course, Sen. McCain has run for president as well as other offices. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:46 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs OK - so now I had to go take a look at my birth certificate because I didn't remember what information was included. It's important to know there are lots of different records of birth within the United States, and and even more variation among different governments. My original birth certificate is a laminated card which looks a lot like a driver's license. It has a blue border with the title "Province of Ontario" at the top - yes, I was born in Canada. It includes my name, DOB, sex, location of birth, date of registration, number and issue date. This information was typed very neatly next to the printed title. Also printed on the card is a replicaq of the signature of the Deputy Registrar-General (whoever that is). I found it interesting that my mother's or father's name wasn't listed anywhere. Nor is there a footprint or other identifying information - other than the fact that the card is in my possession. It's a good think I have no political aspirations and no one is questioning me! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:57 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs > Well, an indication of one's mindset is the degree of proof one > requires to be proven wrong. "Preponderance of evidence" is still the > standard. If the vast majority of people see the evidence as > convincing, the question should logically become moot, instead of > being constantly resuscitated by the frantic gyrations of yell-radio > hosts and reactionary Southern businessmen.. My own "birth > certificate" is a tiny, much-folded, white-on-black negative > photostat of a crudely-typed "Certificate of Live Birth" issued by > California, which repeats the same basic information as in Obama's > certificate, along with the added note that silver nitrate was > applied to my eyes. Yet nobody denies my existence, and hopefully > nobody will do so for another ten or 20 years. > On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well, it is unfair to accuse someone of something they did not do. >> Fair is fair, and I don't mind being proven mistaken. Trust me on >> that one. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:04:07 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs >> >> >>> >>> >>> I really hope my suspicions are unfounded. >> >> Sure, you do! Suuuuuuuurrrrre, you do! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 13:39:32 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:39:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <746329608.15779491268858372122.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> There was more than one huge flood that came down the Columbia River. One was named the Missoula Flood. It hit where Portland is now with enough water to reverse the flow of the Willamet River all the way up to Eugene. That was one massive flood, but apparently occured long before humans were in this area. Theory: As the last ice age retreated, melt water collected in temporary lakes held back by ice dams. When the dams melted through, billions of gallons of water were released. One theory held that erosion of Kelly's Butte (an old volcano vent in Portland) on the eastern flank indicated water 200 feet deep had hit it. I doubt we shall see another like it until another ice age arrives and then melts away. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:28:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders that dammed the river for a time. WW On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: > The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through > its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend > of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something > to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging > from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans > around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those > floods. > > Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he > attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then > prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding > thereafter as if in fact it was. > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >> showed a >> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >> Hunter >> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >> been near >> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >> G would >> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >> seeds making >> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >> Golden >> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >> >> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >> describe >> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >> >> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >> liked to >> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >> verified his >> info with local tales and folk lore. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>> on the >>> same side of the discussion. >>> >>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>> hope. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 14:21:05 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1695069046-1268846324-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1614723501-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <25470500.15796551268860865882.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Nothing like verifying the veracity of a theory by talking to the old Methusala type guys It appears the last ice age did not reach that part of the country with glaciers, yet the area must have been cold, perhaps too cold to grow crops. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:18:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those floods. Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding thereafter as if in fact it was. On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey > showed a > 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from > Hunter > Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have > been near > perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ > G would > have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of > seeds making > the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the > Golden > Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. > > Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could > describe > an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. > > But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I > liked to > read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and > verified his > info with local tales and folk lore. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >> on the >> same side of the discussion. >> >> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >> hope. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Jamsm at aol.com Wed Mar 17 14:22:21 2010 From: Jamsm at aol.com (Jamsm at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:22:21 EDT Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Message-ID: I understand that the Missoula flooding occurred multiple times. The flooding occurred repeatedly - sometimes, with the flooding worse than others: glacier ice formed (grew) then an ice dam formed re-damming waters as the ice melted - then the ice dam melted/broke. Is suspected that it might have been a semi-seasonal occurrence. Where in some summers the ice dam did not break or the glacier did not melt that much (and/or the glacier grew more) letting the waters get even greater for when the ice dam broke again. [From the science channel.] I could be wrong but that is I got from the show I watched. Back to the taxes - when done, will return to the old discussion The Grouch In a message dated 3/17/2010 4:39:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ocollaugh at comcast.net writes: There was more than one huge flood that came down the Columbia River. One was named the Missoula Flood. It hit where Portland is now with enough water to reverse the flow of the Willamette River all the way up to Eugene. That was one massive flood, but apparently occurred long before humans were in this area. Theory: As the last ice age retreated, melt water collected in temporary lakes held back by ice dams. When the dams melted through, billions of gallons of water were released. One theory held that erosion of Kelly's Butte (an old volcano vent in Portland) on the eastern flank indicated water 200 feet deep had hit it. I doubt we shall see another like it until another ice age arrives and then melts away. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:28:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders that dammed the river for a time. WW On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: > The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through > its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend > of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something > to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging > from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans > around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those > floods. > > Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he > attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then > prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding > thereafter as if in fact it was. > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >> showed a >> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >> Hunter >> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >> been near >> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >> G would >> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >> seeds making >> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >> Golden >> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >> >> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >> describe >> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >> >> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >> liked to >> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >> verified his >> info with local tales and folk lore. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>> on the >>> same side of the discussion. >>> >>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>> hope. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 14:52:08 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <746329608.15779491268858372122.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <746329608.15779491268858372122.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Yep, the floods were periodic. On I-5, the way down to Eugene, you will see round hillocks, called "drumlins," that are vestiges of rock outcrops that were scoured by the raging waters. Some of them are mined as rock quarries. On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:39 PM, donkelly wrote: > There was more than one huge flood that came down the Columbia River. > One was named the Missoula Flood. It hit where Portland is now with > enough water to reverse the flow of the Willamet River all the way > up to Eugene. > > That was one massive flood, but apparently occured long before > humans were in this area. > > Theory: As the last ice age retreated, melt water collected in > temporary lakes held back by ice dams. When the dams melted > through, billions of gallons of water were released. > > One theory held that erosion of Kelly's Butte (an old volcano vent > in Portland) on the eastern flank indicated water 200 feet deep had > hit it. > > I doubt we shall see another like it until another ice age arrives > and then melts away. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list > > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:28:55 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders > that dammed the river for a time. > WW > On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: > >> The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through >> its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something >> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those >> floods. >> >> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >> thereafter as if in fact it was. >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>> showed a >>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>> Hunter >>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>> been near >>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >>> G would >>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>> seeds making >>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>> Golden >>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>> >>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>> describe >>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>> >>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>> liked to >>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>> verified his >>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>> on the >>>> same side of the discussion. >>>> >>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>> hope. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 15:15:47 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:15:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <702174223.15820001268864147941.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If there were any humans here then Walt, the floods ruined their day. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:52:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Yep, the floods were periodic. On I-5, the way down to Eugene, you will see round hillocks, called "drumlins," that are vestiges of rock outcrops that were scoured by the raging waters. Some of them are mined as rock quarries. On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:39 PM, donkelly wrote: > There was more than one huge flood that came down the Columbia River. > One was named the Missoula Flood. It hit where Portland is now with > enough water to reverse the flow of the Willamet River all the way > up to Eugene. > > That was one massive flood, but apparently occured long before > humans were in this area. > > Theory: As the last ice age retreated, melt water collected in > temporary lakes held back by ice dams. When the dams melted > through, billions of gallons of water were released. > > One theory held that erosion of Kelly's Butte (an old volcano vent > in Portland) on the eastern flank indicated water 200 feet deep had > hit it. > > I doubt we shall see another like it until another ice age arrives > and then melts away. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list > > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:28:55 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders > that dammed the river for a time. > WW > On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: > >> The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through >> its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something >> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those >> floods. >> >> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >> thereafter as if in fact it was. >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>> showed a >>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>> Hunter >>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>> been near >>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >>> G would >>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>> seeds making >>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>> Golden >>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>> >>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>> describe >>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>> >>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>> liked to >>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>> verified his >>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>> on the >>>> same side of the discussion. >>>> >>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>> hope. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Wed Mar 17 15:54:44 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Oregon Food Bank has a chance to receive 1 free truckload of food In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <105121.91951.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> OFB Alert: 1 free truckload of food! Hello OFB Volunteer Community! We have the chance to receive 1 free truckload of food(equivalent to 150,000 meals) through www.wecanendthis.com! All we need is a few clicks! Unfortunately, we only have 2 days to act! If you have an extra 60 seconds either today or tomorrow(You have until 5pm ET on March 18th), please make a virtual pledge. Here's all you need to do: 1. Click this link(or paste in your browser): www.wecanendthis.com 2. Pledge to either "Give", "Volunteer" or "Share" 3. Choose "Oregon" as the state. 4. Add your name and email address and click "Submit" If we make it into the top 10 for states, Oregon will receive a free truck load of food! Thanks so much! If you'd like to keep up-to-date on positive actions you can take to help fight hunger in Oregon, join us on Facebook by clicking here. Jeff Horne Volunteer Coordinator Oregon Food Bank (O) 503.282.0555 x 233 (F) 503.282.0922 www.oregonfoodbank.org Our mission: To eliminate hunger and its root causes ... because no one should be hungry. Forward email From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 17:19:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:19:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <9D021544-D097-4DD4-8F16-D8012CB78E6C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1744826710.15872301268871552513.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those floods. Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding thereafter as if in fact it was. On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey > showed a > 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from > Hunter > Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have > been near > perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ > G would > have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of > seeds making > the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the > Golden > Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. > > Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could > describe > an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. > > But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I > liked to > read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and > verified his > info with local tales and folk lore. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of David Morelli >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >> on the >> same side of the discussion. >> >> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >> hope. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 17:31:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:31:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <190747127.15877371268872318648.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes carbon, it might also like you. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:46:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae is another example. All the iron used in ancient northern Europe (in forging Viking swords, etc) was bog iron, which had to be folded and hammered repeatedly in forging to get out most of the impurities, resulting in the damascene appearance of the blades. The problem from a human standpoint is, the concentration both of iron and of uranium by microorganisms is a very slow process. Whether the uranium-concentrating organism has any modern representatives I don't know. If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water, I imagine any other life form in the immediate area would either die, or become super-hardy itself. Cockroaches are supposedly highly resistant to radiation, meaning they might be one of the few survivors of a major war. And they are very ancient. Perhaps this is significant? If one could genetically create a super-microorganism to concentrate uranium, one could either use it to clean up groundwater contamination (a major concern at Hanford, which will eventually leach into the Columbia River) or, as you suggest, to produce nuclear fuel. But if the process is geologically slow, it might not be practicable for human needs. An interesting question! On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:23 PM, donkelly wrote: > How one would find, document, and report an error would be a > challenge. > > Of note is nature's ability to concentrate minerals, like pure > silica found in geostones located in east Iowa and other places. > > On another note is how various colors of silica replaced the > cellulose cells to form petrified wood. > > The cause of course was volcanic activity + several other > simultaneous physical acts coupled with great pressure, and the > result a million years or so later was petrified wood. > > If natural processes can degrade uranium to plutonium, and that > process could be duplicated by man, using centrafuges could become > a technological innovation of the past. And where it happened could > make a country super rich. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:55:07 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Also include the estimation for the natural Oklo uranium reactor. > http://www.alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/ > Lovelock_Oklo.html > > Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be on > the same side of the discussion. > > It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can > hope. > > David > On Mar 16, 2010, at 12:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Well David, I am no scientist, but I do study deep history of the >> earth, and this subject might be interesting to others. >> >> Starting with theories, some conflicts exist on the age of the >> earth, but most compromise at about 4.6 billion years. >> >> The earliest radiometric examination of rocks, taken from various >> locations of earth, point back in time to 3.9 billion years. >> >> Older science by radio-carbon dating is also used; for examples, >> dating of dynosaur bones back a couple of hundred million years, >> to the Kinnewick Man dating back in America to about 9,000 years, >> Alaska diggings of bones in the Aleutians and Kodiak Island, and >> the southern Alaska coast, date back to around 7,000 years. >> >> Granting that radioncarbon and radiometric dating are not precise, >> what would you like to talk about? >> >> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 17:48:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:48:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <702174223.15820001268864147941.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <702174223.15820001268864147941.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1A9A4FE5-BD27-4569-9350-522B080C60CD@teleport.com> True... but the survivors ate well for a week or so. More, if they knew how to make jerky or pemmican from the drowned critters. ;^) On Mar 17, 2010, at 3:15 PM, donkelly wrote: > If there were any humans here then Walt, the floods ruined their day. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:52:08 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Yep, the floods were periodic. On I-5, the way down to Eugene, you > will see round hillocks, called "drumlins," that are vestiges of rock > outcrops that were scoured by the raging waters. Some of them are > mined as rock quarries. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:39 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> There was more than one huge flood that came down the Columbia River. >> One was named the Missoula Flood. It hit where Portland is now with >> enough water to reverse the flow of the Willamet River all the way >> up to Eugene. >> >> That was one massive flood, but apparently occured long before >> humans were in this area. >> >> Theory: As the last ice age retreated, melt water collected in >> temporary lakes held back by ice dams. When the dams melted >> through, billions of gallons of water were released. >> >> One theory held that erosion of Kelly's Butte (an old volcano vent >> in Portland) on the eastern flank indicated water 200 feet deep had >> hit it. >> >> I doubt we shall see another like it until another ice age arrives >> and then melts away. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: nospam03 at comcast.net, Forest Grove local interests list >> >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:28:55 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> I thought it was just a simple land bridge, perhaps fallen boulders >> that dammed the river for a time. >> WW >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Steve wrote: >> >>> The is folk lore that tells of people going under this or through >>> its tunnel. I'm not sure of projected date for its falling. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:09:24 >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >>> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have >>> something >>> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >>> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >>> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of >>> those >>> floods. >>> >>> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >>> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >>> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >>> thereafter as if in fact it was. >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >>> >>>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>>> showed a >>>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>>> Hunter >>>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>>> been near >>>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. >>>> A H/ >>>> G would >>>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>>> seeds making >>>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>>> Golden >>>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>>> >>>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>>> describe >>>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>>> >>>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>>> liked to >>>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>>> verified his >>>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>>> on the >>>>> same side of the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>>> hope. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 18:01:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:01:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1744826710.15872301268871552513.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1744826710.15872301268871552513.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. > don You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air involved there... ;^) Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known evidence. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend > of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something > to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging > from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans > around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those > floods. > > Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he > attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then > prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding > thereafter as if in fact it was. > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >> showed a >> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >> Hunter >> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >> been near >> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >> G would >> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >> seeds making >> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >> Golden >> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >> >> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >> describe >> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >> >> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >> liked to >> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >> verified his >> info with local tales and folk lore. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>> on the >>> same side of the discussion. >>> >>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>> hope. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 18:03:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:03:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <190747127.15877371268872318648.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <190747127.15877371268872318648.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E70FE16-6ACB-4B40-A353-4359FC1781B0@teleport.com> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: > Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. > > They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska > (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of > oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope > you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes > carbon, it might also like you. Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 18:08:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:08:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <130314704.15888941268874490223.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were ever proven. Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. > don You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air involved there... ;^) Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known evidence. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend > of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something > to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging > from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans > around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those > floods. > > Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he > attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then > prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding > thereafter as if in fact it was. > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: > >> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >> showed a >> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >> Hunter >> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >> been near >> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >> G would >> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >> seeds making >> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >> Golden >> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >> >> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >> describe >> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >> >> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >> liked to >> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >> verified his >> info with local tales and folk lore. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>> on the >>> same side of the discussion. >>> >>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>> hope. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 18:13:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:13:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <4E70FE16-6ACB-4B40-A353-4359FC1781B0@teleport.com> Message-ID: <2064335214.15890841268874832459.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: > Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. > > They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska > (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of > oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope > you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes > carbon, it might also like you. Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 18:16:46 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:16:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <130314704.15888941268874490223.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <130314704.15888941268874490223.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were > ever proven. > Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues > under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage > of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. > don True enough... reason to start up a really sustained effort to find and catalog orbit-crossing asteroids (or planets, in this case). If nothing else, a few months of warning would at least allow us to stockpile as much knowledge and technology as possible in various hardened sites, and hope that some survivors knew how to retrieve it. Another premise for a good sci-fi book or movie. I hope you're taking this down... ;^) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. >> don > You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air > involved there... ;^) > > Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is > Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" > and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the > fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- > crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of > a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh > theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although > impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been > discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is > also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known > evidence. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something >> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those >> floods. >> >> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >> thereafter as if in fact it was. >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>> showed a >>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>> Hunter >>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>> been near >>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >>> G would >>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>> seeds making >>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>> Golden >>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>> >>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>> describe >>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>> >>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>> liked to >>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>> verified his >>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>> on the >>>> same side of the discussion. >>>> >>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>> hope. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 18:32:27 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:32:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <2064335214.15890841268874832459.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2064335214.15890841268874832459.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring such cataclysms. Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the > middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to > come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, > still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >> >> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >> carbon, it might also like you. > > Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely > better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another > Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 18:36:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:36:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1215598580.15899001268876182846.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Some things I never forget, at least until I get too old to remember anything. Then just beam me up Scotti and see what ski fi medical practice can do for me. Man cannot even imagine what will be available to us in 100 years. Perhaps they could even teach me to spell. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:16:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were > ever proven. > Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues > under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage > of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. > don True enough... reason to start up a really sustained effort to find and catalog orbit-crossing asteroids (or planets, in this case). If nothing else, a few months of warning would at least allow us to stockpile as much knowledge and technology as possible in various hardened sites, and hope that some survivors knew how to retrieve it. Another premise for a good sci-fi book or movie. I hope you're taking this down... ;^) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. >> don > You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air > involved there... ;^) > > Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is > Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" > and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the > fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- > crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of > a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh > theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although > impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been > discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is > also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known > evidence. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have something >> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of those >> floods. >> >> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >> thereafter as if in fact it was. >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >> >>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>> showed a >>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>> Hunter >>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>> been near >>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. A H/ >>> G would >>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>> seeds making >>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>> Golden >>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>> >>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>> describe >>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>> >>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>> liked to >>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>> verified his >>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>> on the >>>> same side of the discussion. >>>> >>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>> hope. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 18:44:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <702322521.15901971268876671294.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe in extinct? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring such cataclysms. Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the > middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to > come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, > still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >> >> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >> carbon, it might also like you. > > Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely > better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another > Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 19:34:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Happy St. Patricks Day In-Reply-To: <10073-4BA0D4E9-3944@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <773154789.15921401268879673523.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> You did it again Hoss. Very nice. The Irishman ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan AKA Hoss To: grovenet at rdrop.com Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:11:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Happy St. Patricks Day It think today would a good day to pin a real small Doug Fir a bit of ole green for Saint Paddy! From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 20:49:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:49:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1215598580.15899001268876182846.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1215598580.15899001268876182846.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <66756932-F497-4CA7-9460-1C4AAA28D937@teleport.com> No telling what medical discoveries they will make even in the next 10 years-- but the trouble is, how many people will be able to take advantage of them? As medicine gets more advanced, it also gets more expensive. And even if I could afford all the latest artificial whatevers, I don't think i'd care to live to 150 if most of it had to be spent with an ever-increasing load of mechanical replacement parts. On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Some things I never forget, at least until I get too old to > remember anything. Then just beam me up Scotti and see what ski fi > medical practice can do for me. Man cannot even imagine what will > be available to us in 100 years. Perhaps they could even teach me > to spell. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:16:46 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were >> ever proven. >> Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues >> under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage >> of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. >> don > > True enough... reason to start up a really sustained effort to find > and catalog orbit-crossing asteroids (or planets, in this case). If > nothing else, a few months of warning would at least allow us to > stockpile as much knowledge and technology as possible in various > hardened sites, and hope that some survivors knew how to retrieve it. > Another premise for a good sci-fi book or movie. I hope you're taking > this down... ;^) > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. >>> don >> You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air >> involved there... ;^) >> >> Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is >> Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" >> and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the >> fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- >> crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of >> a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh >> theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although >> impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been >> discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is >> also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known >> evidence. >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >>> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have >>> something >>> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >>> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >>> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of >>> those >>> floods. >>> >>> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >>> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >>> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >>> thereafter as if in fact it was. >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >>> >>>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>>> showed a >>>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>>> Hunter >>>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>>> been near >>>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. >>>> A H/ >>>> G would >>>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>>> seeds making >>>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>>> Golden >>>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>>> >>>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>>> describe >>>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>>> >>>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>>> liked to >>>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>>> verified his >>>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>>> on the >>>>> same side of the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>>> hope. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 20:55:39 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <702322521.15901971268876671294.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <702322521.15901971268876671294.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6F941F0F-FE60-479C-8C0F-B4BB1125379F@teleport.com> Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years could be retained by that remnant. On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by > that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe > in extinct? > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short > human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring > such cataclysms. > Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, > which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a > cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>> >>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>> carbon, it might also like you. >> >> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 21:05:58 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:05:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? Message-ID: I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't make a note. Anyone have that handy? David From edavie at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 21:11:46 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? References: Message-ID: Horton's Office supply in FG. Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Morelli" To: "grovenet" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:05 PM Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? >I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't make a note. > > Anyone have that handy? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 21:17:39 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:17:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2F06CE-6C2D-47E7-BBA8-804F55FD88FC@verizon.net> Thank you. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > Horton's Office supply in FG. > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Morelli" > To: "grovenet" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:05 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? > > >> I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't make a note. >> >> Anyone have that handy? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 21:19:35 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:19:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <6F941F0F-FE60-479C-8C0F-B4BB1125379F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <96474330.15957371268885975132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Extinct volcanos? If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. Clean air to breath would be in short supply. In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. Not a positive outlook I feel. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years could be retained by that remnant. On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by > that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe > in extinct? > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short > human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring > such cataclysms. > Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, > which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a > cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>> >>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>> carbon, it might also like you. >> >> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 21:20:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:20:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wasn't there one in a gift shop next to BJ's Coffee? Or is that closed now? On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:05 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't > make a note. > > Anyone have that handy? > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 21:21:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:21:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? In-Reply-To: <4F2F06CE-6C2D-47E7-BBA8-804F55FD88FC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2036718704.15957891268886073782.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Corner of 18th in Cornelius. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:17:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? Thank you. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > Horton's Office supply in FG. > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Morelli" > To: "grovenet" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:05 PM > Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? > > >> I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't make a note. >> >> Anyone have that handy? >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 21:35:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <66756932-F497-4CA7-9460-1C4AAA28D937@teleport.com> Message-ID: <228068183.15962221268886939370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Don't worry Walt. They will grow new legs or arms from bone, new teeth when they discover how sharks grow teeth, or how lizards grow new tails. There is a brave new world out there. I know you have heard that one before. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:49:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . No telling what medical discoveries they will make even in the next 10 years-- but the trouble is, how many people will be able to take advantage of them? As medicine gets more advanced, it also gets more expensive. And even if I could afford all the latest artificial whatevers, I don't think i'd care to live to 150 if most of it had to be spent with an ever-increasing load of mechanical replacement parts. On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > Some things I never forget, at least until I get too old to > remember anything. Then just beam me up Scotti and see what ski fi > medical practice can do for me. Man cannot even imagine what will > be available to us in 100 years. Perhaps they could even teach me > to spell. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:16:46 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were >> ever proven. >> Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues >> under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage >> of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. >> don > > True enough... reason to start up a really sustained effort to find > and catalog orbit-crossing asteroids (or planets, in this case). If > nothing else, a few months of warning would at least allow us to > stockpile as much knowledge and technology as possible in various > hardened sites, and hope that some survivors knew how to retrieve it. > Another premise for a good sci-fi book or movie. I hope you're taking > this down... ;^) > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. >>> don >> You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air >> involved there... ;^) >> >> Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is >> Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in Chaos" >> and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, the >> fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an orbit- >> crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of >> a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh >> theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although >> impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been >> discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is >> also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known >> evidence. >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >>> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have >>> something >>> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >>> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been humans >>> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of >>> those >>> floods. >>> >>> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >>> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >>> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >>> thereafter as if in fact it was. >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >>> >>>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>>> showed a >>>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>>> Hunter >>>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>>> been near >>>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. >>>> A H/ >>>> G would >>>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>>> seeds making >>>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in the >>>> Golden >>>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>>> >>>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area could >>>> describe >>>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>>> >>>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>>> liked to >>>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>>> verified his >>>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>>> on the >>>>> same side of the discussion. >>>>> >>>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I can >>>>> hope. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 21:39:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:39:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <96474330.15957371268885975132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <96474330.15957371268885975132.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a chance, and some would be likely to make it. A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for "civilization storage," however. It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus excellent kindling. On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > Extinct volcanos? > > If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple > volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could > keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by > tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for > blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and > canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be > very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. > Clean air to breath would be in short supply. > > In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within > five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, > or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. > > The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in > Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. > > Not a positive outlook I feel. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human > stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant > of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- > type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether > the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years > could be retained by that remnant. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >> in extinct? >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >> such cataclysms. >> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>>> >>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>> >>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 21:41:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:41:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1097135204.15963551268887276985.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I believe Alexander the great burned that library. Could be wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:39:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a chance, and some would be likely to make it. A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for "civilization storage," however. It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus excellent kindling. On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > Extinct volcanos? > > If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple > volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could > keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by > tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for > blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and > canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be > very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. > Clean air to breath would be in short supply. > > In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within > five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, > or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. > > The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in > Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. > > Not a positive outlook I feel. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human > stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant > of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- > type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether > the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years > could be retained by that remnant. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >> in extinct? >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >> such cataclysms. >> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>>> >>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>> >>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 21:42:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:42:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <228068183.15962221268886939370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <228068183.15962221268886939370.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <49D6D148-8A08-4242-AF4A-4E287779E710@teleport.com> On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:35 PM, donkelly wrote: > Don't worry Walt. They will grow new legs or arms from bone, new > teeth when they discover how sharks grow teeth, or how lizards grow > new tails. > > There is a brave new world out there. I know you have heard that > one before. Or as Stanislaw Lec said, " 'A better tomorrow' is no guarantee against 'an even better day after tomorrow.' " > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:49:58 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > No telling what medical discoveries they will make even in the next > 10 years-- but the trouble is, how many people will be able to take > advantage of them? As medicine gets more advanced, it also gets more > expensive. And even if I could afford all the latest artificial > whatevers, I don't think i'd care to live to 150 if most of it had to > be spent with an ever-increasing load of mechanical replacement parts. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:36 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Some things I never forget, at least until I get too old to >> remember anything. Then just beam me up Scotti and see what ski fi >> medical practice can do for me. Man cannot even imagine what will >> be available to us in 100 years. Perhaps they could even teach me >> to spell. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:16:46 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:08 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> I suspect we would be in deep hurt if Velikovsky's theories were >>> ever proven. >>> Writers need some credibility to survive as writers. Twenty Leagues >>> under the sea had some credibility, and perhaps with more passage >>> of time, even more credibility. All fun reading. >>> don >> >> True enough... reason to start up a really sustained effort to find >> and catalog orbit-crossing asteroids (or planets, in this case). If >> nothing else, a few months of warning would at least allow us to >> stockpile as much knowledge and technology as possible in various >> hardened sites, and hope that some survivors knew how to retrieve it. >> Another premise for a good sci-fi book or movie. I hope you're taking >> this down... ;^) >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:01:57 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Sounds a bit like Climate Warming. >>>> don >>> You mean Von Daniken? Yeah, there was an awful lot of hot air >>> involved there... ;^) >>> >>> Another very popular "radical science" author you might enjoy is >>> Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote "Worlds in Collision." "Ages in >>> Chaos" >>> and "Earth in Upheaval"... his theory is that the flood legends, >>> the >>> fire legends, etc. are all connected to ancient memories of an >>> orbit- >>> crossing planet that sweeps through the solar system at intervals of >>> a few thousand years, disrupting the planets, including Earth... teh >>> theory is interesting and plausible, the way he writes it, although >>> impossible to prove absolutely.... some of his theories have been >>> discredited in part. In archaeology, his "Oedipus and Akhenaton" is >>> also great reading... his theories there at least tie in with known >>> evidence. >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:09:24 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> Well, you might also take a look at the "Bridge of the Gods" legend >>>> of the Columbia River area, which might (or might not) have >>>> something >>>> to do with the Missoula Floods or later periodic deluges. Judging >>>> from a dig I participated in at Woodburn, there may have been >>>> humans >>>> around to scavenge the floating carcasses left behind by one of >>>> those >>>> floods. >>>> >>>> Von Daniken's stuff is entertaining, but also annoying since he >>>> attempts to "prove" things by stating an interesting fact, then >>>> prefacing an exotic theory with "could it be?" and then proceeding >>>> thereafter as if in fact it was. >>>> >>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Steven wrote: >>>> >>>>> I find the bible to be interesting. Just recently a site in Turkey >>>>> showed a >>>>> 15,000 year old possible alter. It seemed that as we shifted from >>>>> Hunter >>>>> Gatherer to agriculture, it started there. This site would have >>>>> been near >>>>> perfect for humans at that time. Plenty of forests and animals. >>>>> A H/ >>>>> G would >>>>> have had no trouble living there. But the alter shows signs of >>>>> seeds making >>>>> the society that built it agriculture based. And the site is in >>>>> the >>>>> Golden >>>>> Triangle, not far from the garden of eden. >>>>> >>>>> Also the Noah's Ark story and the similar stories in the area >>>>> could >>>>> describe >>>>> an flood of the black sea about the time period estimated. >>>>> >>>>> But then I found it fun to read VonDanken's UFO/gods stuff. And I >>>>> liked to >>>>> read about the guy that identified ancient asteroid strikes and >>>>> verified his >>>>> info with local tales and folk lore. >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >>>>>> bounces at rdrop.com] On >>>>>> Behalf Of David Morelli >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 PM >>>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Should anyone ever rise to support Creation Science, we could be >>>>>> on the >>>>>> same side of the discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> It isn't too likely that we will have that opportunity. But I >>>>>> can >>>>>> hope. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 21:45:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:45:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? In-Reply-To: <2036718704.15957891268886073782.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2036718704.15957891268886073782.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <371D14A9-D240-488C-8AB1-23A2BF839B41@verizon.net> Thank you David On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:21 PM, donkelly wrote: > Corner of 18th in Cornelius. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:17:39 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? > > Thank you. > > David > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > >> Horton's Office supply in FG. >> Ed >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Morelli" >> To: "grovenet" >> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:05 PM >> Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? >> >> >>> I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't make a note. >>> >>> Anyone have that handy? >>> >>> David >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at ronhowden.com Wed Mar 17 21:58:38 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:58:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013801cac657$aca4db20$05ee9160$@com> Walt, It closed sometime ago. It was called Fax and Gifts I believe. Ron H. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:20 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? Wasn't there one in a gift shop next to BJ's Coffee? Or is that closed now? On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:05 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't > make a note. > > Anyone have that handy? > > David From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 22:16:46 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:16:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> References: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae ... > ... > If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water... Learn something new every day. Bog iron. Who would have guessed? ---- Isotopes of Uranium are chemically identical, whether it is U-235 or U-238. That's why we cannot use a chemical process to separate it. Bacteria use chemical processes to concentrate minerals, so it is very unlikely that they could concentrate U-235 in any degree that is different from the concentration of U-238. Whatever the cause, uranium was concentrated in the Olko deposit. The general understanding is that uranium of all types is only produced in the furnace of stars. What is available on earth came from that source. Here on earth we had both U-235 and U-238. Both decay over time. U-235 decays much faster. So, if you started with 50%-50% ratio of U-235 and U-238 on some date, after sufficient time, you would have the current 99.3%-0.7% ratio. Given the current ratio, and the known half-lives of the two isotopes, scientists can compute how long ago there was sufficient density of U-235 to achieve a critical mass and have a sustained nuclear reaction. David From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 22:23:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:23:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1097135204.15963551268887276985.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1097135204.15963551268887276985.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: It suffered several disasters, but the final and fatal one came at the hands of a rabid mob led by the bishop of Alexandria. On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:41 PM, donkelly wrote: > I believe Alexander the great burned that library. Could be wrong. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:39:02 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come > close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene > pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of > modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA > evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. > What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival > than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, > but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a > chance, and some would be likely to make it. > A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for > "civilization storage," however. > It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying > vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of > Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had > already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius > Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on > obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus > excellent kindling. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Extinct volcanos? >> >> If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple >> volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could >> keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by >> tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for >> blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and >> canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be >> very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. >> Clean air to breath would be in short supply. >> >> In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within >> five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, >> or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. >> >> The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in >> Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. >> >> Not a positive outlook I feel. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human >> stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant >> of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- >> type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether >> the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years >> could be retained by that remnant. >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >>> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >>> in extinct? >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >>> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >>> such cataclysms. >>> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >>> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >>> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >>>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >>>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>>>> >>>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>>> >>>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >>>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 22:26:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:26:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Horton's In-Reply-To: <013801cac657$aca4db20$05ee9160$@com> References: <013801cac657$aca4db20$05ee9160$@com> Message-ID: <38C1A472-FA39-4BFC-A9CB-1C07C766FA17@teleport.com> OK! Shows how much I get around. I was talking to the proprietor of Horton's on Tuesday, and he said he intended to close the store within a month. Apparently he tried to find a buyer, but had no luck. It will a real loss to the town if Horton's does go away. Walt On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > > Walt, > It closed sometime ago. It was called Fax and Gifts I believe. > Ron H. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:20 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? > > Wasn't there one in a gift shop next to BJ's Coffee? Or is that > closed now? > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:05 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't >> make a note. >> >> Anyone have that handy? >> >> David > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Mar 17 22:29:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:29:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: References: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> Message-ID: <5022E4AD-04F7-498C-B832-9D666F42E006@teleport.com> Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in a swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae ... >> ... >> If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of >> starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water... > > Learn something new every day. Bog iron. Who would have guessed? > > ---- > Isotopes of Uranium are chemically identical, whether it is U-235 > or U-238. That's why we cannot use a chemical process to separate > it. Bacteria use chemical processes to concentrate minerals, so it > is very unlikely that they could concentrate U-235 in any degree > that is different from the concentration of U-238. Whatever the > cause, uranium was concentrated in the Olko deposit. > > The general understanding is that uranium of all types is only > produced in the furnace of stars. What is available on earth came > from that source. Here on earth we had both U-235 and U-238. Both > decay over time. U-235 decays much faster. So, if you started > with 50%-50% ratio of U-235 and U-238 on some date, after > sufficient time, you would have the current 99.3%-0.7% ratio. > > Given the current ratio, and the known half-lives of the two > isotopes, scientists can compute how long ago there was sufficient > density of U-235 to achieve a critical mass and have a sustained > nuclear reaction. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 22:29:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:29:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1559979443.15973961268890178667.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, a pox on him, for all the good it will do now. All the knowledge of the ages in one library was a disaster waiting to happen. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:23:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . It suffered several disasters, but the final and fatal one came at the hands of a rabid mob led by the bishop of Alexandria. On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:41 PM, donkelly wrote: > I believe Alexander the great burned that library. Could be wrong. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:39:02 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come > close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene > pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of > modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA > evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. > What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival > than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, > but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a > chance, and some would be likely to make it. > A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for > "civilization storage," however. > It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying > vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of > Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had > already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius > Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on > obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus > excellent kindling. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Extinct volcanos? >> >> If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple >> volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could >> keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by >> tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for >> blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and >> canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be >> very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. >> Clean air to breath would be in short supply. >> >> In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within >> five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, >> or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. >> >> The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in >> Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. >> >> Not a positive outlook I feel. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human >> stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant >> of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- >> type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether >> the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years >> could be retained by that remnant. >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >>> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >>> in extinct? >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >>> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >>> such cataclysms. >>> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >>> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >>> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >>>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >>>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>>>> >>>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>>> >>>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >>>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 22:34:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:34:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1403859514.15974901268890477322.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In such a disaster, unless the trouble, make your way south to warmer weather. With water, and game to hunt, and a good cave, and plenty of firewood, you could make it. I agree that, as an example, nomads would probably have a greater chance at survival. They take their households with them and set up a house in a day; with livestock they have wool and milk, make their own clothes; they would be the people we look up to, and look to for help. night don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:23:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . It suffered several disasters, but the final and fatal one came at the hands of a rabid mob led by the bishop of Alexandria. On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:41 PM, donkelly wrote: > I believe Alexander the great burned that library. Could be wrong. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:39:02 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come > close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene > pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of > modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA > evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. > What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival > than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, > but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a > chance, and some would be likely to make it. > A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for > "civilization storage," however. > It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying > vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of > Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had > already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius > Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on > obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus > excellent kindling. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Extinct volcanos? >> >> If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple >> volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could >> keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by >> tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for >> blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and >> canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be >> very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. >> Clean air to breath would be in short supply. >> >> In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within >> five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, >> or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. >> >> The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in >> Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. >> >> Not a positive outlook I feel. >> >> don >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human >> stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant >> of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- >> type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether >> the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years >> could be retained by that remnant. >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >>> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >>> in extinct? >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >>> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >>> such cataclysms. >>> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >>> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >>> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is the >>>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much worse, to >>>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats oil. >>>>> >>>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and hope >>>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe likes >>>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>>> >>>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... defrinitely >>>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 22:46:35 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:46:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <5022E4AD-04F7-498C-B832-9D666F42E006@teleport.com> Message-ID: <705504543.15976611268891195545.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Consider Walt that uranium has a relatively low reading of radioactivity. As it is processes the radiation factor becomes larger. Living next to a swamp slowly radiating radioactivity would probably result in a slow and painful death. But remember something else about swamps. Radon gas kills. Methane gas kills. You need protection or you die anyway. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:29:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in a swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae ... >> ... >> If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of >> starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water... > > Learn something new every day. Bog iron. Who would have guessed? > > ---- > Isotopes of Uranium are chemically identical, whether it is U-235 > or U-238. That's why we cannot use a chemical process to separate > it. Bacteria use chemical processes to concentrate minerals, so it > is very unlikely that they could concentrate U-235 in any degree > that is different from the concentration of U-238. Whatever the > cause, uranium was concentrated in the Olko deposit. > > The general understanding is that uranium of all types is only > produced in the furnace of stars. What is available on earth came > from that source. Here on earth we had both U-235 and U-238. Both > decay over time. U-235 decays much faster. So, if you started > with 50%-50% ratio of U-235 and U-238 on some date, after > sufficient time, you would have the current 99.3%-0.7% ratio. > > Given the current ratio, and the known half-lives of the two > isotopes, scientists can compute how long ago there was sufficient > density of U-235 to achieve a critical mass and have a sustained > nuclear reaction. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 22:57:55 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:57:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <5022E4AD-04F7-498C-B832-9D666F42E006@teleport.com> References: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> <5022E4AD-04F7-498C-B832-9D666F42E006@teleport.com> Message-ID: <00455D76-A14C-454C-A8A4-04973FE8F8BF@verizon.net> Since the reactor was active about 2 Billion years ago, there wasn't much life around. The blue-green algae was busy killing its environment by creating an Oxygen rich atmosphere, and the aerobic bacteria were starting to make use of that. I don't know how sensitive they are to radiation. It would be very interesting to consider if the radiation had any favorable mutations. Of course, in the absence of ozone, the radiation reaching the earth from space may have been more significant. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in a swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? From allnutt at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 23:03:03 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:03:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Horton's In-Reply-To: <38C1A472-FA39-4BFC-A9CB-1C07C766FA17@teleport.com> References: <013801cac657$aca4db20$05ee9160$@com> <38C1A472-FA39-4BFC-A9CB-1C07C766FA17@teleport.com> Message-ID: <22F57DBF-2367-4092-ABD0-857657CF8872@verizon.net> I will miss Hortons. They had great service and allowed customers to use their comb binder equipment (a real service not found any where else that I know). This makes me very sad to hear it. Katie On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > OK! Shows how much I get around. > I was talking to the proprietor of Horton's on Tuesday, and he said > he intended to close the store within a month. Apparently he tried to > find a buyer, but had no luck. It will a real loss to the town if > Horton's does go away. > Walt > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > >> >> Walt, >> It closed sometime ago. It was called Fax and Gifts I believe. >> Ron H. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- >> bounces at rdrop.com] On >> Behalf Of Walt Wentz >> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:20 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Where is the UPS drop off? >> >> Wasn't there one in a gift shop next to BJ's Coffee? Or is that >> closed now? >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:05 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> I remember that the UPS drop location was mentioned, but I didn't >>> make a note. >>> >>> Anyone have that handy? >>> >>> David >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 23:39:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1629327277.15756221268855395464.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <207F1B3B-5D9D-4E1F-99D6-A428B3EFFD42@verizon.net> On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, donkelly wrote: > Hi all. I think the thread is about played out, but part with some thought provoking incidents: Read, investigate, decide for yourself. > > Birthers: > > Two Attorney Generals and a Governor question birth information. > > http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Virginia_AG_Obama_birth_certificate_will_get_tested.html I only see one named in the article, who are the others? And he doesn't reference any on going suits. There was a comment about Orly Tatz, but she got tossed from one of her suits. How have the others faired? > Pass Porters: > > President's passport files hacked three times, NBC did not report it, the President (Senator at the time) was upset, clearly shaken when speaking publicly of the events: The hackers are known, one still works for the government, but none of the three are talking, and a witness is dead. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23736254/ The investigation of the passport hacking was done by the G.W. Bush Administration. Do you suppose they withheld the information so that Obama could beat McCain? The murdered person was described on April 5, 2008 by the Washington Times as having been arrested as part of a credit card fraud ring that took information from the Passport files. He was listed as cooperating with the FBI. Two weeks later, April 17, 2008, he was shot dead. There was no public statement that he was involved or witness to the two people who opened the Passport files of Obama, Clinton and McCain. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/05/passport-official-quits-amid-probes/ > ... > President, then Senator, admitted to visiting Afganistan in 1981, Funny. The public statement was that he visited Pakistan. Are you embellishing the story for better effect? Or is your source doing that? > two weeks after his passport file was hacked. The main witness to the hacking is dead, shot in the head. "main witness"? That would qualify as more embellishment. But it does sound better to those who are looking for "smoke". > > 1981 Pakistan and Afganistan were closed to Americans, no American Citizen could get a passport to travel there. Lahore Pakistan was open to Americans http://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/14/travel/lahore-a-survivor-with-a-bittersweet-history.html?scp=1&sq=lahore%20travel%201981&st=cse There was a travel advisory. i.e. get a 30 day visa for Pakistan in advance if coming in from India, because the border station doesn't issue visas. Not exactly what the "doom and gloom" crowd tells us. http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/travel/cis/southasia/TA_Pakistan1981.pdf http://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/23/travel/l-lahore-243000.html?sec=&spon=&scp=3&sq=lahore%20travel%201981&st=cse > ... > Obama was a poor kid of 19, yet he managed to attend school and visit Afganistan and Pakistan in the same year, without visible financing? He was traveling on a trip to visit his mother in Indonesia and his father in Kenya. Gosh, do you suppose he was flying standby with support from his grandparents? Just a thought. BTW, he stopped in Pakistan. The Russians stopped in Afghanistan. With all of the aid we were pouring into Pakistan, maybe Obama was working for the CIA to finance his trip? It could happen. > Tax Returns: > > None on record for a Barry Sotero, Berry Obama, or Barack Hussein (or H) Obama, between the years of 1980 and 1985. .. The IRS doesn't release tax returns. So unless you have someone who is stealing federal documents and feeding your mail box (and I would be real quiet about that if you do - smile), you have no way of knowing if he filed or not. What your source is really saying is, "Obama didn't give us copies of his tax documents". And since there is only a seven year requirement for saving tax returns, why would anyone have them from 1980? But it REALLY sounds better the way your source wrote it. > In my opinion it is a no brainer to assume that no one would spend nearly one million dollers to seal records of their past, unless there were multiple things in those records that had to be hidden. > > Where there is smoke, there is fire. You read, you decide. > > don As you indicated the other day, if someone tells the same lies about Obama long enough, some people start to believe them. Smoke? Don't inhale. This stuff will corrupt your insides. David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 23:55:30 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:55:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <00455D76-A14C-454C-A8A4-04973FE8F8BF@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1347439518.15983091268895330069.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Those specialized bacteria were quite adaptable. If they ran out of oxygen they would switch to methane. In a swamp setting they act in distinctly different ways to iron, or copper, or alumanum or uranium. These tests are described in technical terms in science forums. One can join those forums as a guest. Two, when talking about nuclear energy vs fossell fuel energy, in terms of heat generated, a nuclear plant produces little CO2, but dissapates four times the heat of a similar size fossel fuel generating plant. In global warming, heat dissapated from the ground and by mechanical means is the primary concern, not CO2. Only about 7% of our heat is in the atmosphere, and about 28% is lost (whom knows where?) and the other 65% comes not from the sun, but from the earth, or what is on the earth. Clear that scientists cannot solve heating problems by focusing on one issue. One more goodie in closing. 55 milllion years ago the earth was steaming tropical, and a whole lot warmer than it is now, and with a lot of methane to boot. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:57:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . Since the reactor was active about 2 Billion years ago, there wasn't much life around. The blue-green algae was busy killing its environment by creating an Oxygen rich atmosphere, and the aerobic bacteria were starting to make use of that. I don't know how sensitive they are to radiation. It would be very interesting to consider if the radiation had any favorable mutations. Of course, in the absence of ozone, the radiation reaching the earth from space may have been more significant. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in a swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 23:55:02 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:55:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <581153283.15537481268810531153.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <581153283.15537481268810531153.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5AC7F091-8FAF-4237-9353-436C3AC2303D@verizon.net> The government cutting back isn't going to keep us from having huge raises in the cost of living. It is just a question when the bill arrives for the consumption orgy of our past. We purchase on the world market. We depend upon that market for too much of our food, too much of our material goods, and too much of our raw resources. We are heavy in debt both as a nation and as individuals and foreign organizations hold too much of our banknotes. If they call the debt, we cannot pay. Which means, they are going to "get wise" one of these days and reduce our line of credit. When that happens we can expect to see the dollar lose value against the other currencies, which will drive up the price of everything. And then we won't have anything to say about it. The funny thing, is that we could do ourselves a favor by reducing the dollar ourselves, now, before they do it. Reduced dollar makes our products more competitive overseas to raise our export related employment, and it raises the cost of imports which makes our products more competitive for domestic related employment. If we control the exchange rate, we can try to keep it at a level that doesn't scare away our mortgage holders while allowing us to get more people employed and paying taxes, to reduce our national debt which reduces our foreign debt. We can reduce the dollar through the exchange rate, or by putting a tax on all international transactions. The tax would return the government to the original source of funding, import taxes. But the exchange rate would be less obvious, and more in line with "free market" principles. Initiating action shows the world that we are serious about reducing our role as a "debtor nation" which could improve our credit rating and buy time to get this thing straight. Of course, going into another Trillion dollar war wouldn't help matters. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:22 AM, donkelly wrote: > cannot disagree with that. But we are in for a wild ride, and huge raises in cost of living. We don't have the money (nationally) to do otherwise, unless the government decides to cut back on expenses. But don't count on it. > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 23:58:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:58:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <5AC7F091-8FAF-4237-9353-436C3AC2303D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <276670928.15983301268895513909.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Looks like we are both saying the same things, but in different words. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:55:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs The government cutting back isn't going to keep us from having huge raises in the cost of living. It is just a question when the bill arrives for the consumption orgy of our past. We purchase on the world market. We depend upon that market for too much of our food, too much of our material goods, and too much of our raw resources. We are heavy in debt both as a nation and as individuals and foreign organizations hold too much of our banknotes. If they call the debt, we cannot pay. Which means, they are going to "get wise" one of these days and reduce our line of credit. When that happens we can expect to see the dollar lose value against the other currencies, which will drive up the price of everything. And then we won't have anything to say about it. The funny thing, is that we could do ourselves a favor by reducing the dollar ourselves, now, before they do it. Reduced dollar makes our products more competitive overseas to raise our export related employment, and it raises the cost of imports which makes our products more competitive for domestic related employment. If we control the exchange rate, we can try to keep it at a level that doesn't scare away our mortgage holders while allowing us to get more people employed and paying taxes, to reduce our national debt which reduces our foreign debt. We can reduce the dollar through the exchange rate, or by putting a tax on all international transactions. The tax would return the government to the original source of funding, import taxes. But the exchange rate would be less obvious, and more in line with "free market" principles. Initiating action shows the world that we are serious about reducing our role as a "debtor nation" which could improve our credit rating and buy time to get this thing straight. Of course, going into another Trillion dollar war wouldn't help matters. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:22 AM, donkelly wrote: > cannot disagree with that. But we are in for a wild ride, and huge raises in cost of living. We don't have the money (nationally) to do otherwise, unless the government decides to cut back on expenses. But don't count on it. > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Mar 17 23:58:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:58:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> References: <1088872740.15290211268768773748.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <06ADEF4B-CC04-4008-B00A-D5D46907073F@teleport.com> Message-ID: When? On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:21 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > The next free lecture at the FG Public Library will feature an Oregon archaeologist who claims to have discovered ancient human DNA in Southeast Oregon. It seems that humans have arrived here in several waves, dating back much farther than previously suspected. "Prehistoric Humans in Southeastern Oregon" with Dr. Dennis Jenkins, University of Oregon Archeologist. > Presented by the Friends of the Forest Grove Library > Location: Rogers Room at Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific Avenue. > Contact: (503) 992-3247. FREE From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 18 00:12:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:12:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1347439518.15983091268895330069.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1347439518.15983091268895330069.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: The earth is in a dynamic equilibrium. It could be compared to a black box. For input, there is a heat source in the core from nuclear decay, and a heat source in the core of the sun from nuclear fusion. For output, there is radiant heat loss to space. There is also chemical storage of the heat input as hydrocarbons. The issue is the change in the equilibrium point by the introduction into today's heat balance of chemical energy captured millions of years ago, and the reduction of the radiant heat loss by "green house gasses" and cloud cover. We have also changed the incoming solar heat collection, increasing the efficiency of collection by replacing white ice with dark water and dark land, and decreasing efficiency by increasing cloud cover. Because the change in "white" and the green house gasses are influenced by human activities, we have some responsibility for the change in the equilibrium temperature. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:55 PM, donkelly wrote: > Those specialized bacteria were quite adaptable. If they ran out of oxygen they would switch to methane. In a swamp setting they act in distinctly different ways to iron, or copper, or alumanum or uranium. These tests are described in technical terms in science forums. One can join those forums as a guest. > > Two, when talking about nuclear energy vs fossell fuel energy, in terms of heat generated, a nuclear plant produces little CO2, but dissapates four times the heat of a similar size fossel fuel generating plant. > > In global warming, heat dissapated from the ground and by mechanical means is the primary concern, not CO2. Only about 7% of our heat is in the atmosphere, > and about 28% is lost (whom knows where?) and the other 65% comes not from the sun, but from the earth, or what is on the earth. > > Clear that scientists cannot solve heating problems by focusing on one issue. > > One more goodie in closing. 55 milllion years ago the earth was steaming tropical, and a whole lot warmer than it is now, and with a lot of methane to boot. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Mar 18 00:17:23 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:17:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Gaffs In-Reply-To: <276670928.15983301268895513909.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <276670928.15983301268895513909.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Maybe. I just want someone at the top, who can grasp the concepts without beating his chest and hollering "bring them on". Or someone who believes that "war is good business, invest your son". I grant that Obama has not dealt well with investment industry's stupidity, but that is because he is too conservative. And I know that that goes against the claim that he is a socialist. David On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:58 PM, donkelly wrote: > Looks like we are both saying the same things, but in different words. > > don From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 18 08:37:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:37:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <1403859514.15974901268890477322.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1403859514.15974901268890477322.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4AB46917-9193-4C66-87FB-69147B071692@teleport.com> Don: We might not have to move south to warmer weather... the warmer weather might come to us! Of all the knowledge and science to be preserved, that dealing with tropical diseases might be most valuable-- along with soil management and animal husbandry. Barring plentiful supplies of fuel to re-work old scrap iron and steel, the knowledge of knapping flint might also be handy! On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:34 PM, donkelly wrote: > In such a disaster, unless the trouble, make your way south to > warmer weather. > With water, and game to hunt, and a good cave, and plenty of > firewood, you could make it. > > I agree that, as an example, nomads would probably have a greater > chance at survival. They take their households with them and set up > a house in a day; with livestock they have wool and milk, make > their own clothes; they would be the people we look up to, and look > to for help. > > night > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:23:43 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > It suffered several disasters, but the final and fatal one came at > the hands of a rabid mob led by the bishop of Alexandria. > On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:41 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> I believe Alexander the great burned that library. Could be wrong. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Walt Wentz >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:39:02 +0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >> >> Nope, not exactly a positive outlook, but remember, humanity has come >> close to extinction many times in the past. We had a very small gene >> pool for the first few hundred thousand years, and apparently all of >> modern humanity is descended, according to mitachondrial DNA >> evidence, from a very few females, even as late as 20,000 years ago. >> What we call the third world might have a better chance at survival >> than civilized folk suddenly deprived of their Mr. Coffee and SUV, >> but the tougher and more ingenious back-to-landers would have a >> chance, and some would be likely to make it. >> A good idea to use abandoned missile and command sites for >> "civilization storage," however. >> It is customary to blame the early Christian fanatics for destroying >> vast stores of human knowledge by burning the great Library of >> Alexandria, but the truth was by that time most of the good stuff had >> already disappeared-- carted off by such collectors as Julius >> Caesar-- and had been replaced by tons of driveling commentary on >> obscure theological points which made very dry reading, and thus >> excellent kindling. >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:19 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Extinct volcanos? >>> >>> If a huge volcano blast went off, or the unusual event of multiple >>> volcanos going off (like in Arizona), remnants of humanity could >>> keep warm in caves by burning wood, and get by a few years by >>> tapping grocery stores for canned goods, and hardware stores for >>> blankets and clothing, but food could not be raised for years, and >>> canned goods would eventually play out, open water would not be >>> very good to drink, and probably frozen anyway. >>> Clean air to breath would be in short supply. >>> >>> In all, if 10% of the earthlings survived, most would die within >>> five years of exposure, by starvation, by thurst, by suffocation, >>> or by illnesses they have no medicine for.. >>> >>> The great library of Alexandria might survive if reposed in >>> Cheyenne Mountain, or another hardened bunker complex. >>> >>> Not a positive outlook I feel. >>> >>> don >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:55:39 +0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>> >>> Well, seems to me that extinction would be more likely from human >>> stupidity than natural causes. Barring a major war, a small remnant >>> of humanity would survive, somewhere, even after a Dinosaur-killer- >>> type asteroid strike or a Yellowstone blast. The question is whether >>> the knowledge accumulated so painfully over the last 10,000 years >>> could be retained by that remnant. >>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:44 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Oh yea, Yellowstone. Still we have three other volcanos close by >>>> that could cross a hot spot and jump up and bite us. Do you believe >>>> in extinct? >>>> >>>> don >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:32:27 +0000 (UTC) >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>> >>>> Well, in geologic long terms, "worse" is always to come. Our short >>>> human life-spans, however, will keep most people from ever enduring >>>> such cataclysms. >>>> Unless the Yellowstone "hot spot" should happen to blow, of course, >>>> which would make Krakatoa seem like a wet firecracker... just a >>>> cheerful thought to sleep on... :^) >>>> >>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>> >>>>> Perhaps so. It is scary when nature turns against man. Haiti is >>>>> the >>>>> middle of a very long list.......with much more, and much >>>>> worse, to >>>>> come. Those techtonic plates under our feet are still grinding, >>>>> still spawning volcanos, still triggering earth quakes. >>>>> don >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Walt Wentz >>>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>>> Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:03:49 +0000 (UTC) >>>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:31 PM, donkelly wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Someplace petrolium scientists discovered a microbe that eats >>>>>> oil. >>>>>> >>>>>> They cultured it then sprayed it on beaches and rocks in Alaska >>>>>> (Exxon Valdez spill)and it did rather well. To clean up a lot of >>>>>> oil you need to culture hundreds of tons of the microbes, and >>>>>> hope >>>>>> you don't stumble onto a microbe that eats you. If a microbe >>>>>> likes >>>>>> carbon, it might also like you. >>>>> >>>>> Would make an interesting premise for a horror movie... >>>>> defrinitely >>>>> better than "the Crazies," which I just saw... Pfui, just another >>>>> Zombie flick, but with germ warfare for an excuse. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 18 08:40:12 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:40:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <705504543.15976611268891195545.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <705504543.15976611268891195545.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7D43D8E6-E1C7-475B-A59F-009455FADDD7@teleport.com> True... humans have generally avoided swamps. They were spirit- infested places in North Europe, malarial in the south. Maybe the critters that generally lived there (reptiles, amphibians, bugs) were tool short-lived to be greatly affected. Would be interesting to find some two-headed fish fossils in one of those ancient natural reactors, however.... On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:46 PM, donkelly wrote: > Consider Walt that uranium has a relatively low reading of > radioactivity. > > As it is processes the radiation factor becomes larger. > > Living next to a swamp slowly radiating radioactivity would > probably result in a slow and painful death. > > But remember something else about swamps. Radon gas kills. Methane > gas kills. > > You need protection or you die anyway. > > don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:29:28 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . > > Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in a > swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> >> On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> The concentration of iron ore in swamp water by certain algae ... >>> ... >>> If the ancient bugs could really concentrate U-235 to the point of >>> starting off a nuclear reaction moderated by the water... >> >> Learn something new every day. Bog iron. Who would have guessed? >> >> ---- >> Isotopes of Uranium are chemically identical, whether it is U-235 >> or U-238. That's why we cannot use a chemical process to separate >> it. Bacteria use chemical processes to concentrate minerals, so it >> is very unlikely that they could concentrate U-235 in any degree >> that is different from the concentration of U-238. Whatever the >> cause, uranium was concentrated in the Olko deposit. >> >> The general understanding is that uranium of all types is only >> produced in the furnace of stars. What is available on earth came >> from that source. Here on earth we had both U-235 and U-238. Both >> decay over time. U-235 decays much faster. So, if you started >> with 50%-50% ratio of U-235 and U-238 on some date, after >> sufficient time, you would have the current 99.3%-0.7% ratio. >> >> Given the current ratio, and the known half-lives of the two >> isotopes, scientists can compute how long ago there was sufficient >> density of U-235 to achieve a critical mass and have a sustained >> nuclear reaction. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Mar 18 08:47:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:47:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Just for the Record . . . In-Reply-To: <00455D76-A14C-454C-A8A4-04973FE8F8BF@verizon.net> References: <1511898899.15532781268806980703.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <701B797B-2934-4561-872D-245F4BEFC9F3@teleport.com> <5022E4AD-04F7-498C-B832-9D666F42E006@teleport.com> <00455D76-A14C-454C-A8A4-04973FE8F8BF@verizon.net> Message-ID: True enough, I hadn't thought of that. But since bacteria reproduce so rapidly, seems although the larger percentage of mutations would be benign but useless, or outright lethal, there would be a tiny percentage of advantageous mutations that would lead to thriving new species. On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:57 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Since the reactor was active about 2 Billion years ago, there > wasn't much life around. The blue-green algae was busy killing its > environment by creating an Oxygen rich atmosphere, and the aerobic > bacteria were starting to make use of that. I don't know how > sensitive they are to radiation. > > It would be very interesting to consider if the radiation had any > favorable mutations. Of course, in the absence of ozone, the > radiation reaching the earth from space may have been more > significant. > > David > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Am I correct in assuming, then, that a natural nuclear reaction in >> a swamp would irradiate and kill most life in the immediate vicinity? > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Mar 18 09:28:58 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan AKA Hoss) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:28:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] U.S. schools in 'category 5' budget crisis - MSNBC Articles Message-ID: <18817-4BA254CA-710@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Any one have any idea the categories that Oregon's Schools fall into? http://tinyurl.com/y94tvv2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100318/cad6b860/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=35883971 From obrzl at verizon.net Thu Mar 18 09:45:21 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (mark oberzil) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: All in the Family -worth reading to the end Message-ID: <796855.84290.qm@web84201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/18/10, Doug Willbanks wrote: From: Doug Willbanks Subject: All in the Family To: "AUPHR NEWS" Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 3:48 PM ? February 26 - 28, 2010 Media Reporting on Israel All in the Family By ALISON WEIR Recent expos?s revealing that Ethan Bronner, the New York Times' Israel-Palestine bureau chief, has a son in the Israeli military have caused a storm of controversy that continues to swirl and generate further revelations. (See my piece for CounterPunch, The NYT's Ethan Bronner's Conflict With Impartiality.) Many people find such a sign of family partisanship in an editor covering a foreign conflict troubling ? especially given the Times? record of Israel-centric journalism. Times management at first refused to confirm Bronner?s situation, then refused to comment on it. Finally, public outcry forced Times Public Editor Clark Hoyt to confront the problem in a February 7th column. After bending over backwards to praise the institution that employs him, Hoyt ultimately opined that Bronner should be re-assigned to a different sphere of reporting to avoid the ?appearance? of bias. Times Editor Bill Keller declined to do so, however, instead writing a column calling Bronner?s connections to Israel valuable because they ?supply a measure of sophistication about Israel and its adversaries that someone with no connections would lack.? If such ?sophistication? is valuable, the Times? espoused commitment to the ?impartiality and neutrality of the company's newsrooms? would seem to require it to have a balancing editor equally sophisticated about Palestine and its adversary, but Keller did not address that. Bronner is far from alone As it turns out, Bronner?s ties to the Israeli military are not the rarity one might expect. ? A previous Times bureau chief, Joel Greenberg, before he was bureau chief but after he was already publishing in the Times from Israel, actually served in the Israeli army. ? Media pundit and Atlantic staffer Jeffrey Goldberg also served in the Israeli military; it's unclear when, how, or even if his military service ended. ? Richard Chesnoff, who has been covering Mideast events for more than 40 years, had a son serving in the Israeli military while Chesnoff covered Israel as US News & World Report's senior foreign correspondent. ? NPR's Linda Gradstein?s husband was an Israeli sniper and may still be in the Israeli reserves. NPR refuses to disclose whether Gradstein herself is also an Israeli citizen, as are her children and husband. ? Mitch Weinstock, national editor for the San Diego Union-Tribune, served in the Israeli military. ? The New York Times? other correspondent from the region, Isabel Kershner, is an Israeli citizen. Israel has universal compulsory military service, which suggests that Kershner herself and/or family members may have military connections. The Times refuses to answer questions about whether she and/or family members have served or are currently serving in the Israeli military. Is it possible that Times Foreign Editor Susan Chira herself has such connections? The Times refuses to answer. ? Many Associated Press writers and editors are Israeli citizens or have Israeli families. AP will not reveal how many of the journalists in its control bureau for the region currently serve in the Israeli military, how many have served in the past, and how many have family members with this connection. ? Similarly, many TV correspondents such as Martin Fletcher have been Israeli citizens and/or have Israeli families. Do they have family connections to the Israeli military? ? Time Magazine's bureau chief several years ago became an Israeli citizen after he had assumed his post. Does he have relatives in the military? ? CNN's Wolf Blitzer, while not an Israeli citizen, was based in Israel for many years, wrote a book whitewashing Israeli spying on the US , and used to work for the Israel lobby in the US . None of this is divulged to CNN viewers. Tikkun's editor Michael Lerner has a son who served in the Israeli military. While Lerner has been a strong critic of many Israeli policies, in an interview with Jewish Week, Lerner explains: ?Having a son in the Israeli army was a manifestation of my love for Israel , and I assume that having a son in the Israeli army is a manifestation of Bronner?s love of Israel ." Lerner goes on to make a fundamental point: "...there is a difference in my emotional and spiritual connection to these two sides [Israelis and Palestinians]. On the one side is my family; on the other side are decent human beings. I want to support human beings all over the planet but I have a special connection to my family. I don?t deny it.? For a great many of the reporters and editors determining what Americans learn about Israel-Palestine , Israel is family. Jonathan Cook, a British journalist based in Nazareth , writes of a recent meeting with a Jerusalem based bureau chief, who explained: ?? Bronner?s situation is ?the rule, not the exception. I can think of a dozen foreign bureau chiefs, responsible for covering both Israel and the Palestinians, who have served in the Israeli army, and another dozen who like Bronner have kids in the Israeli army.? Cooks writes that the bureau chief explained: ?It is common to hear Western reporters boasting to one another about their Zionist credentials, their service in the Israeli army or the loyal service of their children.? Apparently, intimate ties to Israel are among the many open secrets in the region that are hidden from the American public. If, as the news media insist, these ties present no problem or even, as the Times? Keller insists, enhance the journalists? work, why do the news agencies consistently refuse to admit them? The reason is not complicated. While Israel may be family for these journalists and editors, for the vast majority of Americans, Israel is a foreign country. In survey after survey, Americans say they don?t wish to ?take sides? on this conflict. In other words, the American public wants full, unfiltered, unslanted coverage. Quite likely the news media refuse to answer questions about their journalists? affiliations because they suspect, accurately, that the public would be displeased to learn that the reporters and editors charged with supplying news on a foreign nation and conflict are, in fact, partisans. While Keller claims that the New York Times is covering this conflict ?even-handedly,? studies indicate otherwise: * The Times covers international reports documenting Israeli human rights abuses at a rate 19 times lower than it reports on the far smaller number of international reports documenting Palestinian human rights abuses. * The Times covers Israeli children?s deaths at rates seven times greater than they cover Palestinian children?s deaths, even though there are vastly more of the latter and they occurred first. * The Times fails to inform its readers that Israel ?s Jewish-only colonies on confiscated Palestinian Christian and Muslim land are illegal; that its collective punishment of 1.5 million men, women, and children in Gaza is not only cruel and ruthless, it is also illegal; and that its use of American weaponry is routinely in violation of American laws. * The Times covers the one Israeli (a soldier) held by Palestinians at a rate incalculably higher than it reports on the Palestinian men, women, and children ? the vast majority civilians ? imprisoned by Israel (currently over 7,000). ? The Times neglects to report that hundreds of Israel?s captives have never even been charged with a crime and that those who have were tried in Israeli military courts under an array of bizarre military statutes that make even the planting of onions without a permit a criminal offense ? a legal system, if one can call it that, that changes at the whim of the current military governor ruling over a subject population; a system in which parents are without power to protect their children. * The Times fails to inform its readers that 40 percent of Palestinian males have been imprisoned by Israel , a statistic that normally would be considered highly newsworthy, but that Bronner, Kershner, and Chira apparently feel is unimportant to report. Americans, whose elected representatives give Israel uniquely gargantuan sums of our tax money (a situation also not covered by the media), want and need all the facts, not just those that Israel ?s family members decree reportable. We?re not getting them. Alison Weir is executive director of If Americans Knew and a board member of the Council for the National Interest (CNI). For more information on Ethan Bronner and his upcoming speaking tour on college campuses, join IAK?S email list. Alison can be reached at contact at ifamericansknew.org ?Doug Willbanks 6580 SW Wilson Ave. Beaverton, Ore. 97008 503-646-5634 From rab at jurislex.com Thu Mar 18 10:32:16 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Did you hear the one about . . . Message-ID: <4BA263A0.5060209@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100318/3f22b6e7/attachment-0001.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Mar 18 10:50:18 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Did you hear the one about . . . In-Reply-To: <4BA263A0.5060209@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1517922054.16140161268934618817.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> There are plenty of agnostics and insomniacs around, some of them friends, but dyslexics I rarely see, but suspect due to my inability to spell that I in part are one. Agnostics and insomniacs would probably recognize a dog when they saw one. Dyslexics might have a problem recognizing a dog, but if their ears are OK they can get by. If it looks like a dog, runs like a dog, smells like a dog, and barks like a dog, it's a dog, or close enough, part wolf or cuyote. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet , Lisa Maisel , Amy Moore - Legal Assistant , Kathy Hammond , Kristi Clark , Doug Browning - KFRM BPA Sent: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:32:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Did you hear the one about . . . Did you hear the one about the agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac, who lay awake all night wondering if there really is a Dog?  Well, maybe he was more on the right track than is often thought.

bob "is there a dog?" browning
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Scientific American Mind -  March 19, 2010

The Ethical Dog

Looking for the roots of human morality in the animal kingdom? Focus on canines, who know how to play fair

By MARC BEKOFF and Jessica Pierce