From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 00:06:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:06:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] New Age of Contextually "Accurate" Scripture References: <005201cae82a$5aeca890$10c5f9b0$@com> <2755BC8BA5624D71BCB83C7BFCC9587B@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4BDBD2DA.00003A.04020@DON-B2514E06367> For some reason or other the ancient Hebrew translation was probably the most accurate. Translation to other languages in tails educated guesses wherever no phrase or word in another language equivalent exists. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 4/30/2010 11:55:55 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] New Age of Contextually "Accurate" Scripture Every translation makes it less viable without exception! Ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: Jeff Howden Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:59 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] New Age of Contextually "Accurate" Scripture http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project I'm shocked, stunned, disgusted, and absolutely not surprised, all at the same time. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/653b1bbc/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 00:13:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:13:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW References: <1388755323.13561741272571864604.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <054DFEE1-DF42-4565-9A9E-37C52BC6F60D@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BDBD49C.00003F.04020@DON-B2514E06367> They are cited by the administration as accomplishments by Obama. Items one through ten are his words, his claims. You decide if they were in keeping with the constitution. Some are good ideas I think, but he really has not completed any of them, not even one. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/29/2010 1:25:19 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FWIW Huh? Just fun, what part of the Constitution do you reference for the first 5 or 10. David On Apr 29, 2010, at 1:11 PM, donkelly wrote: > Pretty much so. YES. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > > But what about the Constitution? Aren't all these accomplishments non-constitutional? Even the swing set? > > > 1. Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending > > 2. Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices > > 3. Instituted enforcement for equal pay for women > > 4. Beginning the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq > > 5. Families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB > > 6. Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information > > 7. Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB; the media is now permitted to do so pending adherence to respectful rules and approval of fallen soldier's family > > 8. The White House and federal government are respecting the Freedom of Information Act > > 9. Instructed all federal agencies to promote openness and transparency as much as possible > > 10. Limits on lobbyist's access to the White House _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/53c4116a/attachment-0001.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat May 1 00:21:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDBCC34.000032.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDBCC34.000032.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01a601cae8fe$ec45e020$c4d1a060$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I repeat: Clinton fired a cruise missile into Afghanistan. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And so he did. What of it? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > He fired the first shot, not Bush big or small, just as I said. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/155252.stm > > How convenient is it to overlook established facts. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Competent and highly qualified scholars of history disagree with your position that the attack by Clinton that you mention was responsible (or even considered the beginning) of the war in Afghanistan. http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/conflicts/global_security/afghanistan_s ix_years ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Bush didn't START diddly squat. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< It's pretty clear from Bush's perspective that we were starting something in Afghanistan. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2001/10/mil-011007-usia0 1.htm Here's a different perspective, which of course, contains large amounts of speculation. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n20.shtml http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat May 1 00:21:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDBC6B8.000020.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> <4BDBC6B8.000020.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01ac01cae8fe$eee9d700$ccbd8500$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > One example that raises questions: Except during time of war, where > their assembly lines were available to build military vehicles, what > good is General Motors anyway? > > Do we need them? > > Does anyone need them? > > Losing money yet paying big bonuses to management, buying other > companies that became a drag on them? > > Well, the suggestion that TARP encouraged them to be reckless with > their money has some merit. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Indeed. I don't agree with the bailout of GM or Chrysler. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Forget Bush, the Obama congress paid out the money, and they chose > who to pay off and how much to pay off, and they authorized the > payoffs. Bush had zero to do with that, it was all 100% Obama. He > could have refused to sign off on them. He could have said no, but > he did not. So blame Bush for that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Apparently you were sick for the history lesson I already gave on that subject. All of the payments were made prior to Obama taking office. They were discussed, drafted, and authorized by the Congress while Bush was in office. Even the payments themselves were made before Obama took office. General Motors Date Entered: Dec. 29, 2008 Amount: $50,744,648,329 GMAC Date Entered: Dec. 29, 2008 Amount: $16,290,000,000 Chrysler Date Entered: Jan. 2, 2009 Amount: $12,812,130,642 Chrysler Financial Services Date Entered: Jan. 16, 2009 Amount: $1,500,000,000 Date Obama was sworn in? January 20, 2009 http://bailout.propublica.org/programs/3-automotive-industry-financing-progr am Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat May 1 00:21:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDBCA2D.00002F.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <003201cae7d4$212ada60$63808f20$@net> <351951111.13556181272571145813.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a901cae7de$9d61d1b0$d8257510$@com> <4BDBCA2D.00002F.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01a901cae8fe$ed79a530$c86cef90$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > > From: Jeff Howden > > > > [...] This position was not pushed by the administrations. It was > > pushed by the players in the auto and financial industries as a > > reason why they should be given billions in loans. Like it or not, > > it is what it is. > > Yes, it is what it is, which is Obamanism. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Now you're just being ridiculous. It wasn't Obama's idea. If you're going to call it something, call it corporate-socialism, lobbyism, I-need-money-for-my-mistakesism. Suggesting it had something to do with Obama is ludicrous. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 00:36:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:36:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW References: <813941517.13554831272570979285.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <2F429BF4-12AD-4E66-8753-CA7736459036@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BDBDA0F.000048.04020@DON-B2514E06367> You have it quite correct as far as you went David. Sadam was a threat to people within and from without his borders. One side had a don't shoot agreement and the other had a no fly zone agreement with borders patrolled by coalition aircraft, outside of the no fly zone. Sadam tried to bag coalition planes, failed, but kept on trying. He also kicked coalition inspectors out of Iraq. It seems the UN gets involved when asked to do so, but can also refuse to become involved if they wish to do so. Sadam had the opportunity early on to fly out of Iraq with a plane full of gold to live happily ever after, if he had chosen to do so. With him gone, there would be little reason to follow him. Do you suppose it ever crossed his mind that he could be captured and hanged? Could he have avoided the whole thing just by minding his own business? Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 4/29/2010 1:21:01 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FWIW I must have missed some history. Sadam Hussein started the war in Kuwait, and President Bush I responded with a world wide coalition. After that war, Sadam stayed within his borders, shooting missiles ( or threatening to shoot missiles ) at airplanes that were within his air space. Any opinion about whether shooting missiles was an act of war against the US would depend upon your willingness to allow the UN to dictate what goes on within a nation's borders. If you allow that the UN may sanction a nation and control what goes on within its borders, then you may be able to make an argument that he invited some military response, in excess of our military blowing up his missile sites and radar sites. If you deny the UN the authority to control what goes on within a nation's borders, then you cannot claim that Sadam was doing anything wrong by protecting his borders from armed intruders. So which is it? Is the UN allowed to control the airspace within the United States like they tried to control the airspace within Iraq? And then there is the question of "appropriate response". May one nation invade and conquer another nation over a rock throwing incident? Since Sadam didn't succeed in shooting down any American planes, we had no injury to revenge. And Sadam did not offer any other threat to us. According to the Constitution, Congress declares war. You do accept the concept that the Constitution is our guiding document? Neither Clinton nor the Congress then in session declared war in Afghanistan. President Bush II requested war powers for his declared "War on Terror", opened the war in Afghanistan and then he carried it forward against Iraq. David On Apr 29, 2010, at 12:56 PM, donkelly wrote: > Sadam Hussein started the war in Iraq. > > Bill Clinton fired the first shot in Afghanistan. > > Be accurate please. Bush, big or small, didn't start any war. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/76c16791/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 00:40:37 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 00:40:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Absolutely scary . . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BDAE189.6080406@gmail.com> References: <4BD9CF94.3080809@jurislex.com> <4BDAE189.6080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, meth could be made legal and manufactured somewhere. Just as recycling metals is legal and done in a properly zoned location. [ note: we may need to come back to the issue of zoning versus private property rights someday ] When the manufacturing location reaches its "end of life", as many of the "brown field" location have done, the site will move to an economic "higher and better use". A major example in Portland would be the former Snitzer steel recycling property on the Willamette River. The site was toxic from metal and petroleum contamination. You suggest that when you buy the factory you know what was produced there. Left to the free market, what naturally happens with such a contaminated site? I invite you to read the history of Love Canal. http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/lovecanal/01.htm That market was certainly free, not black. Love Canal was private property and that story demonstrates what happens to private property. The free market used Love canal as a toxic dump. The free market filled the dump in the most cost effective method. Once it was full, the free market transferred the canal into a "higher and better use". Then the free market built the homes on the property, and sold them to unsuspecting buyers. Testing the site for health problems would cost money. Actually knowing that health problems exist might cause someone to tell the buyers. And if the buyers know that the housing could kill their children, that could affect the selling price. So, don't test and don't tell. All of that is done by the free market, because it doesn't care about "externalities", only about bottom line. At the time that Hooker Chemical was filling Love Canal with toxic chemical, the various government bodies followed the "laissez faire" economic model. "Leave the market alone and it will provide a better life for everyone". It didn't make a better life for everyone. Some people, it killed, other it made very sick. That is a lesson of history, and those who fail to read history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. The proposal that the government get out of the marketplace has already been tested. Here in Oregon between 1840 and the 1970's, we had no government interference in economic activities that generated pollution or toxic waste. As a result, the laissez faire government policy allowed the Willamette River to become a fetid cesspool. There were fish kills regularly until they stopped. The free market didn't stop the fish kills, they stopped when there were no fish left to die. Today, the air and water in Oregon isn't pristine because it is unspoiled. It WAS spoiled. Today, the air and water is pretty good because we stopped doing many of the things that made it bad. The motive for correcting the lousy water and dirty air did not come from the free market. In fact, the proponents of the free market did not want Oregon to have clean air or clean water, they wanted to continue to dump toxic material into them. David On Apr 30, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > It's not so much the free market but the black market. The current state of things with meth requires for meth labs to be inside houses in residential areas. Other chemicals factories are in zoned parts of town, inside warehouses or properly built labs that are usually inspected and kept clean. It's not near schools, playgrounds and if you buy the factory you'll know what they produced in there. > > Kill the incentive to produce meth in someone's basement and you'll start having safer homes and neighborhoods. > > Adam From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 00:50:57 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:50:57 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty wasBlack References: <62780754.13928191272650323360.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BDBDD5C.000054.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Yes, quite a jump that. Guess we have two options: (1 wait to see what else he wants to do to us OR (2 Not like what we see so far and try to stop him from harming us further. People in Austria didn't think of Hitler as Attilla The Hun either, until he enslaved them. Does this sound at least familiar; take guns from the people, then when they cannot defend themselves, and don't have enough food to eat, or means to heat their homes, then enslave them. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 4/30/2010 5:47:57 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty wasBlack Well, that's a new one-- first he was "Muslim," then "Alien," then "Nazi," then "Socialist," then "Communist," now he's "Atilla the Hun." Tell me, how can any one human successfully be all those things at once, without raging contradictions or conflicting agendas? Obviously he is much more talented than his detractors care to admit.... ;^) On Apr 30, 2010, at 10:58 AM, donkelly wrote: > As a Parthinian Shot, one cannot dodge a million clipboards used to > elect an Atilla The Hun to brainwash and subvert our school children. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Morelli > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:24:18 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the > Teaparty was Black > > Why would you fear people who are working to politically organize > minority groups as more dangerous than people who feel the need to > carry weapons? > > I can avoid getting hit by a clipboard pretty easily, dodging a > spray of bullets is much more difficult. > > David > > > On Apr 29, 2010, at 12:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> I suggest that in the long run ACORN is the most dangerous. >> >>> >> From what I have seen, the Tea Party is Yellow, Red, Black and >> White, and they fly the red, white, and blue American flag. > >> Pretty awsome eh wat? >> >> don... > >> Just because he suggests that a crowd of Tea Party members >> carrying semi-automatic weapons through a downtown would be >> described in more favorable terms than a crowd of ACORN members >> carrying voter registration clipboards? > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100501/bd670ef6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/bd670ef6/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 32188 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/bd670ef6/attachment.jpe From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 01:09:05 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 01:09:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <1420320454.13926541272650084092.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1420320454.13926541272650084092.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A96EDC7-DA90-41ED-A847-E064B1536B14@verizon.net> Why was there a problem with voter count in Ohio? I don't know, could it be that Diebold makes the voting machines, and the company is part of the Republican political machine in Ohio? http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/08/21/voting_machines.html How could Ohio have more votes counted than pre-registered voters? That is a hard one. Let me guess? Do they allow SAME DAY REGISTRATION? http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=36892 David On Apr 30, 2010, at 10:54 AM, donkelly wrote: > 1 of 101 very obvious reasons is in ACORN use of clip boards to cover fraud in registrations so huge that elections could be thrown. > > One example if true, from four sources including CNN and Fox (do they ever tell the truth?) stated that more people voted in Ohio than there were pre registered voters. So how does one explain such an anomoly? Another example is that dead people and underage people, and criminals (verified) voted in Chicago and throughout Illinois. > > It lends new value to the quotation, "The word is mightier than the sword." > > don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 01:13:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 01:13:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . References: <4BDB3A58.3070706@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BDBE2AA.000064.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Professor Stephen Hawkins said he believes that aliens are out there, but it could be dangerous to try to talk to them. Anyone else know Stephen? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/30/2010 1:15:42 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . http://www.space.com/top10_alienencounters_debunked.html bob "skeptical as usual" browning -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/ce091a05/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 01:20:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 01:20:01 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW References: <003201cae7d4$212ada60$63808f20$@net> <351951111.13556181272571145813.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a901cae7de$9d61d1b0$d8257510$@com> <4BD9FDBE.9010606@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BDBE431.000069.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Pro military grandmas and grandpas? Outside of a ready made manufacturing base, the only people hurt if doors closed would be the employees. The big wigs would sink and rise again without a ripple. -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/29/2010 2:44:49 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FWIW However, I find it sort of hilarious that the TPers, who also tend to be pro military, are so opposed to the GM and Chrysler bailouts, since one rationale for the bailout was to protect what small base of heavy manufacturers that we do have and which we will need when the Chinese show up on our shores!! Remember, GM, Ford, and Chrysler got into heavy truck and tank manufacture in less than six months at the start of WW II. bob "thought is was cute that our new air tankers would be made in Europe" browning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ On 4/29/2010 1:57 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: Don, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If you are in busines, it is sink or swim. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Absolutely. Unfortunately, if a company gets so big that it going out of business represents a risk to the system as a whole (the claims made about GM directly and Chrysler indirectly), then something needs to be done. This position was not pushed by the administrations. It was pushed by the players in the auto and financial industries as a reason why they should be given billions in loans. Like it or not, it is what it is. Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100501/30da3f6c/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 01:38:56 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 01:38:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDBDA0F.000048.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <813941517.13554831272570979285.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <2F429BF4-12AD-4E66-8753-CA7736459036@verizon.net> <4BDBDA0F.000048.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <66350CB9-24D9-45A4-AEA9-03957FC134E4@verizon.net> On May 1, 2010, at 12:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > ... > > Could he have avoided the whole thing just by minding his own business? > > Don Don, Sadam was a dictator. His business was abusing the Iraqi people. His business is showing everyone how tough he is. His business was being a jerk. He WAS minding his business. And that is what he was doing until President George W. Bush invaded his country. "On my orders coalition forces have begun striking targets ..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkOCIfNQXP0 The Bush administration started the war. David From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 01:50:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 01:50:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BDBE2AA.000064.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BDB3A58.3070706@jurislex.com> <4BDBE2AA.000064.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <55DEECA4-D76F-4EC4-840A-9A2C675537C0@verizon.net> On May 1, 2010, at 1:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > Professor Stephen Hawkins said he believes that aliens are out there, but it could be dangerous to try to talk to them. > > Anyone else know Stephen? > > Don Yes, he drops by from time to time for racquet ball and a round of tongue twisters. Actually, he seems to think that aliens would take the same approach to our world as the Europeans took to their discovery of the Americas. They would determine if the local life form is suitable for extinction or slavery, and act on the decision. David From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 1 01:53:36 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 08:53:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <55DEECA4-D76F-4EC4-840A-9A2C675537C0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2098720668.14154381272704016980.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I would not be surprised David. Really. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, 1 May 2010 08:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . On May 1, 2010, at 1:13 AM, donkelly wrote: > Professor Stephen Hawkins said he believes that aliens are out there, but it could be dangerous to try to talk to them. > > Anyone else know Stephen? > > Don Yes, he drops by from time to time for racquet ball and a round of tongue twisters. Actually, he seems to think that aliens would take the same approach to our world as the Europeans took to their discovery of the Americas. They would determine if the local life form is suitable for extinction or slavery, and act on the decision. David From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 01:54:08 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 01:54:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty wasBlack In-Reply-To: <4BDBDD5C.000054.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <62780754.13928191272650323360.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4BDBDD5C.000054.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Familiar? I hear it from you a lot. But, I don't see any movement to actually do it. Well, the people who were put out of work by the economic collapse may not have enough food to eat or means to heat their homes, and they may be debt slaves. But, that is to the Corporate Socialists, not the government. And, unless you are planning on armed robbery, guns don't help you get food. David On May 1, 2010, at 12:50 AM, donkelly wrote: > ... > Does this sound at least familiar; take guns from the people, then when they cannot defend themselves, and don't have enough food to eat, or means to heat their homes, then enslave them. > > Don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat May 1 05:53:15 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 05:53:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> Message-ID: <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> We're clearly not doing better with TARP. I just hope Congress is smart enough the next time these fools come begging for more money. But since I don't believe in miracles................. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> Yes, even more so than President Obama. TARP was one of the worst >> decisions that came out of the Bush administration. It told >> businesses to be stupid, reckless and foolish with their money, >> we'll (taxpayers) will give you more. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > Unfortunately we'll probably never know if we'd have been better off letting > the institutions fail that were bailed out. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From steelem at pacificu.edu Sat May 1 08:07:17 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 08:07:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BDBE2AA.000064.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4BDB3A58.3070706@jurislex.com> <4BDBE2AA.000064.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E0DCEF9A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Hawking. The name is Hawking. Stephen Hawking. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 1:14 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . Professor Stephen Hawkins said he believes that aliens are out there, but it could be dangerous to try to talk to them. Anyone else know Stephen? Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 4/30/2010 1:15:42 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Hey, Don, here's ten for you . . . . http://www.space.com/top10_alienencounters_debunked.html bob "skeptical as usual" browning From edavie at verizon.net Sat May 1 09:59:16 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 09:59:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black In-Reply-To: <4BDBB8A2.00000B.04020@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E0DCE7BE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <430450008.13935141272651272651.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E0DCE800@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDBB8A2.00000B.04020@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: You do have a good imagination, I'll give you that! How do you make these thing up? Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 10:14 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] An interesting read. Imagine if the Teaparty was Black _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sat May 1 13:08:39 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 13:08:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022601cae96a$18e311a0$4aa934e0$@com> Adam, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Adam Mayer > > We're clearly not doing better with TARP. [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< That's very much open for debate. We can't go back and run the numbers without TARP in the picture so we'll never really know. Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat May 1 13:26:55 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 13:26:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <022601cae96a$18e311a0$4aa934e0$@com> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> <022601cae96a$18e311a0$4aa934e0$@com> Message-ID: <4BDC8E8F.6010706@gmail.com> Ok you're right, we can't go back and play what if. But if you keep giving money to businesses every time they lose money, they'll have no incentive not to lose money. What if I cash in my 401k, mutual funds, savings, etc and go to Las Vegas, bet everything on the roulette wheel on number 26, and lose all my money when it lands on 12. Who do I ask for my money back from? No one because I made a risky and rather stupid investment with my money. Other people should not be punished and have to give me some of their money, unless they want to. If I get my money back, what's to stop me from doing it again? How many times should other people pay for my financial foolishness? Businesses should be treated the same way. Corporate welfare takes money away from the necessary (rather few in my opinion) things that the government needs to pay for. But I like the idea of charity for businesses instead. Lets set up a donation fund for businesses to ask people for more money instead of taking tax money. I'm sure they'll get lots and lots of money :-D . Don't you feel sorry for the CEO who down to his last three BMW's? Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> We're clearly not doing better with TARP. [...] >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > That's very much open for debate. We can't go back and run the numbers > without TARP in the picture so we'll never really know. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 1 22:05:00 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 22:05:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <4BDC8E8F.6010706@gmail.com> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> <022601cae96a$18e311a0$4aa934e0$@com> <4BDC8E8F.6010706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E49D947-2D39-49EB-AEAD-7B9A159CBF4F@verizon.net> When a business fails, it tends to fall into two categories, I think. If it has more assets than liabilities, then, the assets get sold, the bills get paid, and the company ceases to exist. If it has more liabilities than assets, it goes bankrupt, the assets get sold, the stockholders lose their equity, and the vendors lose all or part of what is owed to them. Why is that? The stockholders chose the directors, and the directors chose the officers who ran the company into the ground, why aren't the stockholders, directors and officers personally responsible to provide additional money to pay the creditors? When it is suggested that companies should be allowed to fail, does that suggestion include the possibility that stockholders, directors and officers should bear the burden for the debts, rather than the creditors and workers? David On May 1, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > ... > > Businesses should be treated the same way. Corporate welfare takes money away from the necessary (rather few in my opinion) things that the government needs to pay for. But I like the idea of charity for businesses instead. Lets set up a donation fund for businesses to ask people for more money instead of taking tax money. I'm sure they'll get lots and lots of money :-D . Don't you feel sorry for the CEO who down to his last three BMW's? > > Adam From allnutt at verizon.net Sun May 2 07:56:46 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 07:56:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FWIW In-Reply-To: <3E49D947-2D39-49EB-AEAD-7B9A159CBF4F@verizon.net> References: <008a01cae7ce$3b6c8f50$b245adf0$@com> <1296055647.13535001272568216107.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <00a501cae7da$6c0f9dd0$442ed970$@com> <4BDA19EE.4070008@gmail.com> <014701cae8b9$8b882670$a2987350$@com> <4BDC243B.2050806@gmail.com> <022601cae96a$18e311a0$4aa934e0$@com> <4BDC8E8F.6010706@gmail.com> <3E49D947-2D39-49EB-AEAD-7B9A159CBF4F@verizon.net> Message-ID: Ah, the beauty of incorporation and limited liability. That is precisely what the laws were written to do. Protect individual investors so that when it all comes tumbling down, they are not on the hook for anything from their personal accounts. Only the amount that they have invested in the corporation is at risk. It works to the benefit of society when it greases the wheels of enterprise. It allows more risk in the market place. Back in the good old days corporations had an obligation to operate in ways that protected the public good as well. Unfortunately, that was all deregulated away and no one loses their corporate charter unless it is a total and utter disaster. Katie On May 1, 2010, at 10:05 PM, David Morelli wrote: > When a business fails, it tends to fall into two categories, I think. > > If it has more assets than liabilities, then, the assets get sold, > the bills get paid, and the company ceases to exist. > > If it has more liabilities than assets, it goes bankrupt, the > assets get sold, the stockholders lose their equity, and the > vendors lose all or part of what is owed to them. > > Why is that? The stockholders chose the directors, and the > directors chose the officers who ran the company into the ground, > why aren't the stockholders, directors and officers personally > responsible to provide additional money to pay the creditors? > > When it is suggested that companies should be allowed to fail, does > that suggestion include the possibility that stockholders, > directors and officers should bear the burden for the debts, rather > than the creditors and workers? > > David > > > On May 1, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> ... >> >> Businesses should be treated the same way. Corporate welfare >> takes money away from the necessary (rather few in my opinion) >> things that the government needs to pay for. But I like the idea >> of charity for businesses instead. Lets set up a donation fund >> for businesses to ask people for more money instead of taking tax >> money. I'm sure they'll get lots and lots of money :-D . Don't >> you feel sorry for the CEO who down to his last three BMW's? >> >> Adam > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun May 2 08:47:09 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 08:47:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History References: Message-ID: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> Another broadside from The Canadian cartoonist, Taral Wayne: Begin forwarded message: > That oil spill in the Gulf is building gradually to be one of the > biggest ecological disasters in US history. It was "only" 16 > million liters for two or three days, and now it's 34 million, only > 7 million short of the Exxon Valdez spill. And the Gulf spill is > not only still growing, indications are that its growing faster. > Officials don't want to speculate, but I saw one estimate place the > possible total spillage to over 70 million liters -- that was a day > or two ago. If it's growing faster than before, is 100 million now > a possibility? More? Expectations are that some of it is bound to > get caught in the Gulf Stream and be carried around the tip of > Florida, where it might threaten the Eastern Seaboard. Get ready, > New York. You might wake up one morning to find Lady Liberty > hiking up her skirts to keep them out of the oil sludge. > > You know... ? Maybe it's a damned good thing. It might scare > Americans, scare the administration and even scare the industry > into taking the risk of off-shore oil seriously. Industry has been > reassuring the public that their new drilling techniques and modern > rigs can drill the continental shelf for oil more safely than ever > before. They tell us that they can exploit resources hitherto out > of bounds without danger to the environment. Oh, really? So why > did thishappen? That this is the biggest oil spill in history, and > all those shiny new techno-baubles are junk at the bottom of the > Gulf, is not a persuasive selling point. > > Maybe at last Obama can put to rest industry fantasies of forever > extracting oil from miles down in the Earth's mantle, or of > harvesting methane-hydrates from the abyssal ooze. It's not safe. > It never was safe. And it's not likely to be safe in the > foreseeable future. Even carting the stuff around the globe in > giant steel balloons -- the nub of the Exxon Valdez disaster -- > isn't safe. > > In the meantime, I'd invest in seafood, particularly shrimp and > shellfish. They're going to be in short supply soon, and the price > will skyrocket. From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sun May 2 09:32:16 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 09:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History References: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> Message-ID: <00A5CA88C3974CA39803790CA13F5AA6@gerianehzkfhvy> I feel like I am continually grieving for the state of my native state of Louisiana... Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Wentz" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:47 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History > Another broadside from The Canadian cartoonist, Taral Wayne: > > Begin forwarded message: > >> That oil spill in the Gulf is building gradually to be one of the >> biggest ecological disasters in US history. It was "only" 16 >> million liters for two or three days, and now it's 34 million, only >> 7 million short of the Exxon Valdez spill. And the Gulf spill is >> not only still growing, indications are that its growing faster. >> Officials don't want to speculate, but I saw one estimate place the >> possible total spillage to over 70 million liters -- that was a day >> or two ago. If it's growing faster than before, is 100 million now >> a possibility? More? Expectations are that some of it is bound to >> get caught in the Gulf Stream and be carried around the tip of >> Florida, where it might threaten the Eastern Seaboard. Get ready, >> New York. You might wake up one morning to find Lady Liberty >> hiking up her skirts to keep them out of the oil sludge. >> >> You know... ? Maybe it's a damned good thing. It might scare >> Americans, scare the administration and even scare the industry >> into taking the risk of off-shore oil seriously. Industry has been >> reassuring the public that their new drilling techniques and modern >> rigs can drill the continental shelf for oil more safely than ever >> before. They tell us that they can exploit resources hitherto out >> of bounds without danger to the environment. Oh, really? So why >> did thishappen? That this is the biggest oil spill in history, and >> all those shiny new techno-baubles are junk at the bottom of the >> Gulf, is not a persuasive selling point. >> >> Maybe at last Obama can put to rest industry fantasies of forever >> extracting oil from miles down in the Earth's mantle, or of >> harvesting methane-hydrates from the abyssal ooze. It's not safe. >> It never was safe. And it's not likely to be safe in the >> foreseeable future. Even carting the stuff around the globe in >> giant steel balloons -- the nub of the Exxon Valdez disaster -- >> isn't safe. >> >> In the meantime, I'd invest in seafood, particularly shrimp and >> shellfish. They're going to be in short supply soon, and the price >> will skyrocket. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Sun May 2 09:41:03 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 09:41:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History In-Reply-To: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> References: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> Message-ID: <2894E71B-4BC4-46B7-83A0-61BF43CBBF0D@verizon.net> Do you suppose that the oil rig is owned by a small corporation that is not a major oil company? And that it is only leased to them? And that the liability for the damages from the oil spill are "capped"? While the economic damages and environmental damage are open ended? As this scenario plays out, we can review the story to see IF it matches Katie's description of corporate limited liability, and corporations' pretty slick way of spreading risk to non investors. "Pretty Slick" way of "Spreading Risk"? No, ugly slick. David On May 2, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Another broadside from The Canadian cartoonist, Taral Wayne: > > Begin forwarded message: > >> That oil spill in the Gulf is building gradually to be one of the >> biggest ecological disasters in US history. It was "only" 16 >> million liters for two or three days, and now it's 34 million, only >> 7 million short of the Exxon Valdez spill. And the Gulf spill is >> not only still growing, indications are that its growing faster. >> Officials don't want to speculate, but I saw one estimate place the >> possible total spillage to over 70 million liters -- that was a day >> or two ago. If it's growing faster than before, is 100 million now >> a possibility? More? Expectations are that some of it is bound to >> get caught in the Gulf Stream and be carried around the tip of >> Florida, where it might threaten the Eastern Seaboard. Get ready, >> New York. You might wake up one morning to find Lady Liberty >> hiking up her skirts to keep them out of the oil sludge. >> >> You know... ? Maybe it's a damned good thing. It might scare >> Americans, scare the administration and even scare the industry >> into taking the risk of off-shore oil seriously. Industry has been >> reassuring the public that their new drilling techniques and modern >> rigs can drill the continental shelf for oil more safely than ever >> before. They tell us that they can exploit resources hitherto out >> of bounds without danger to the environment. Oh, really? So why >> did thishappen? That this is the biggest oil spill in history, and >> all those shiny new techno-baubles are junk at the bottom of the >> Gulf, is not a persuasive selling point. >> >> Maybe at last Obama can put to rest industry fantasies of forever >> extracting oil from miles down in the Earth's mantle, or of >> harvesting methane-hydrates from the abyssal ooze. It's not safe. >> It never was safe. And it's not likely to be safe in the >> foreseeable future. Even carting the stuff around the globe in >> giant steel balloons -- the nub of the Exxon Valdez disaster -- >> isn't safe. >> >> In the meantime, I'd invest in seafood, particularly shrimp and >> shellfish. They're going to be in short supply soon, and the price >> will skyrocket. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Sun May 2 13:26:55 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 13:26:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History In-Reply-To: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> References: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> Message-ID: This is such an amazing disaster for all of us. The right wing has suddenly quit saying 'shrink our government' and has now started saying 'why hasn't the government been bigger in response to this'? Not particularly intellectually consistent but when all you can do is complain it is what we are going to hear. This will impact all of us for many years to come (negatively), but since we are all riding this big blue marble together it will serve as a lesson eventually. Katie On May 2, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Another broadside from The Canadian cartoonist, Taral Wayne: > > Begin forwarded message: > >> That oil spill in the Gulf is building gradually to be one of the >> biggest ecological disasters in US history. It was "only" 16 >> million liters for two or three days, and now it's 34 million, only >> 7 million short of the Exxon Valdez spill. And the Gulf spill is >> not only still growing, indications are that its growing faster. >> Officials don't want to speculate, but I saw one estimate place the >> possible total spillage to over 70 million liters -- that was a day >> or two ago. If it's growing faster than before, is 100 million now >> a possibility? More? Expectations are that some of it is bound to >> get caught in the Gulf Stream and be carried around the tip of >> Florida, where it might threaten the Eastern Seaboard. Get ready, >> New York. You might wake up one morning to find Lady Liberty >> hiking up her skirts to keep them out of the oil sludge. >> >> You know... ? Maybe it's a damned good thing. It might scare >> Americans, scare the administration and even scare the industry >> into taking the risk of off-shore oil seriously. Industry has been >> reassuring the public that their new drilling techniques and modern >> rigs can drill the continental shelf for oil more safely than ever >> before. They tell us that they can exploit resources hitherto out >> of bounds without danger to the environment. Oh, really? So why >> did thishappen? That this is the biggest oil spill in history, and >> all those shiny new techno-baubles are junk at the bottom of the >> Gulf, is not a persuasive selling point. >> >> Maybe at last Obama can put to rest industry fantasies of forever >> extracting oil from miles down in the Earth's mantle, or of >> harvesting methane-hydrates from the abyssal ooze. It's not safe. >> It never was safe. And it's not likely to be safe in the >> foreseeable future. Even carting the stuff around the globe in >> giant steel balloons -- the nub of the Exxon Valdez disaster -- >> isn't safe. >> >> In the meantime, I'd invest in seafood, particularly shrimp and >> shellfish. They're going to be in short supply soon, and the price >> will skyrocket. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Sun May 2 17:53:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 17:53:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Making History In-Reply-To: References: <5DD1B3D5-9B36-4985-8F88-4FF2DE466257@teleport.com> Message-ID: <78BBE708-693B-48B0-8F9C-F0EB5C61623A@verizon.net> Have they actually changed their tune, or are they just keeping quiet until it gets resolved? It does appear that the federal government is involved in the response. http://www.ogj.com/index/article-display/7788961414/articles/oil-gas-journal/general-interest-2/government/2010/04/obama-visits_oil_spill.html I note that our old friend Halliburton was involved on the platform at the time of the fire. They were cementing the final well casing, and that should have allowed the well to have been shut off until later. Pity they didn't finish that job. Or if they did finish it, too bad it doesn't work. I wonder what we will find about that David On May 2, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > This is such an amazing disaster for all of us. > > The right wing has suddenly quit saying 'shrink our government' and has now started saying 'why hasn't the government been bigger in response to this'? Not particularly intellectually consistent but when all you can do is complain it is what we are going to hear. > ... > Katie From k.wilke at mac.com Mon May 3 08:53:22 2010 From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 08:53:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> Message-ID: <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Mon May 3 09:29:21 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 09:29:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> Message-ID: <74BE7F2AD0AB4C8F95D7348441A11B3E@Office> I would love to try it out. Could be a real boon for those of us with limitations on our ability to walk long distances. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Wilke Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 8:53 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 09:49:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 09:49:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> Message-ID: <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Wow, that IS cool. Almost as incredible is the number of views of the video, almost one million. Don -------Original Message------- From: Kurt Wilke Date: 5/3/2010 8:54:02 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/345aa626/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 10:02:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 10:02:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> Looks like Honda took the Sedgeway concept and ran with it for indoor use... Hope they've got redundant backup in their balance/steering system, though. I can visualize one of these things going gunnybag and hurling the passenger through a plate-glass window. On May 3, 2010, at 9:49 AM, donkelly wrote: > Wow, that IS cool. Almost as incredible is the number of views of > the video, > almost one million. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Kurt Wilke > Date: 5/3/2010 8:54:02 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From chuck at grovenet.net Mon May 3 10:26:43 2010 From: chuck at grovenet.net (chuck) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 10:26:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BDF0753.4070909@grovenet.net> Reminds me of the Disney movie Wall-E. Only thing missing is the computer screen and sippy cup. Walt Wentz wrote: > Looks like Honda took the Sedgeway concept and ran with it for indoor > use... Hope they've got redundant backup in their balance/steering > system, though. I can visualize one of these things going gunnybag > and hurling the passenger through a plate-glass window. > On May 3, 2010, at 9:49 AM, donkelly wrote: > > >> Wow, that IS cool. Almost as incredible is the number of views of >> the video, >> almost one million. >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Kurt Wilke >> Date: 5/3/2010 8:54:02 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet_____________________________________ >> __________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From k.wilke at mac.com Mon May 3 10:45:43 2010 From: k.wilke at mac.com (Kurt Wilke) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 10:45:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <4BDF0753.4070909@grovenet.net> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF0753.4070909@grovenet.net> Message-ID: Its amazing how this works, especially the sideways motion. I can see it being used for tours of museums and such too where you have to be on your feet alot. Oh, my warped mind just thought of how fun it would be to play bumper people or jousting. How about basketball? =) Kurt On May 3, 2010, at 10:26 AM, chuck wrote: > Reminds me of the Disney movie Wall-E. > > Only thing missing is the computer screen and sippy cup. > > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Looks like Honda took the Sedgeway concept and ran with it for indoor >> use... Hope they've got redundant backup in their balance/steering >> system, though. I can visualize one of these things going gunnybag >> and hurling the passenger through a plate-glass window. >> On May 3, 2010, at 9:49 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> Wow, that IS cool. Almost as incredible is the number of views of >>> the video, >>> almost one million. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Kurt Wilke >>> Date: 5/3/2010 8:54:02 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >>> grovenet_____________________________________ >>> __________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 10:48:23 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 10:48:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <4BDF0753.4070909@grovenet.net> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF0753.4070909@grovenet.net> Message-ID: <7E2AE933-112A-4470-8D79-3ECB998FC546@teleport.com> On May 3, 2010, at 10:26 AM, chuck wrote: > Reminds me of the Disney movie Wall-E. > > Only thing missing is the computer screen and sippy cup. And a big, broad bench for the massive rumps of the overfed populace ;^) > > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Looks like Honda took the Sedgeway concept and ran with it for indoor >> use... Hope they've got redundant backup in their balance/steering >> system, though. I can visualize one of these things going gunnybag >> and hurling the passenger through a plate-glass window. >> On May 3, 2010, at 9:49 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >> >>> Wow, that IS cool. Almost as incredible is the number of views of >>> the video, >>> almost one million. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Kurt Wilke >>> Date: 5/3/2010 8:54:02 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >>> grovenet___________________________________ >>> __ >>> __________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 13:27:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:27:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> I saw a report on FOX that claimed the illegal emigrant supporters parades were peaceful and there were no arrests. Major media did not make the same claims- - -didn't say much at all about them. But now local papers in several cities report news that disputes what FOX said. So which are correct, FOX news or the involved local city news papers? NOTE: A copy of this e-mail is being sent to 30,000 American press sources as we have been told some major networks like FOX News are falsely reporting that the May 1 marches were all peaceful without arrests. Friends of ALIPAC, We are still gathering up information and we will officially respond on Monday. Here is some of the news coming in about Americans being assaulted by pro Amnesty demonstrators on May 1 and a major riot that occurred in California. Immigration Riot breaks out in downtown Santa Cruz windows smashed fires set http://www.alipac.us/article5217.html Anti-illegal immigration protesters attacked in San Francisco http://www.alipac.us/article5216.html The San Diego Minutemen report that the assailants are seen on bikes in this video of illegals marching with Mexican flags, communist and anarchist banners... VIDEO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H96O6cAO8U 17 detained after search for illegal immigrants who shot Sheriff's deputy http://www.alipac.us/article5214.html Rep. Gutierrez arrested outside of White House in immigration demonstration http://www.alipac.us/article-5213-thread-1-0.html The ALIPAC Team www.alipac.us IF FOX has lied about these demonstrations, whom at the top has instructed them to lie? And for what reasons? Two weeks ago we saw videos made in Arizona of American flags being taken down and Mexican flags put up in their place. So what are the implications here? Do the illegals plan to take military action against Americans- - -the legal kind!!! ? What do you all think about this? Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/1006b0ba/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 14:27:40 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:27:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E0DCE366@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the ENDA bill? don From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 15:00:21 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:00:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <006201caeb0c$096aa780$1c3ff680$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I saw a report on FOX that claimed the illegal emigrant supporters > parades were peaceful and there were no arrests. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/03/calif-immigrants-rights-march-ends-vand alism-arrests/ Malkin's claim that "the arrests and rioting were not reported by many mainstream media outlets" is absolute nonsense -- typical for Fox news -- while simultaneously downplaying the attack you cite below. Considering the men involved are members of the Golden Gate Minutemen, a group aligned with Tea Partiers, it makes it even more curious why they'd not give the attack more coverage. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Major media did not make the same claims- - -didn't say much at all > about them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The claim that "major media [...] didn't say much at all about them" is nonsense. There's plenty in the media about the riots, the vandalism and graffiti, about the men that were attacked, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > But now local papers in several cities report news that disputes > what FOX said. > > So which are correct, FOX news or the involved local city news > papers? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Well, based on Fox's lack of integrity on countless news stories in the past, I'd be inclined to automatically give the local newspapers the nod towards credibility. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Immigration Riot breaks out in downtown Santa Cruz windows smashed > fires set > > http://www.alipac.us/article5217.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Plenty of articles in mainstream media about this event: http://tinyurl.com/22qu5q5 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Anti-illegal immigration protesters attacked in San Francisco > > http://www.alipac.us/article5216.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=7417829 http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/05/felony_charges_for_two_alleged.p hp ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The San Diego Minutemen report that the assailants are seen on > bikes in this video of illegals marching with Mexican flags, > communist and anarchist banners... > > VIDEO > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H96O6cAO8U ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< How could the assailants be simultaneously in San Diego and San Francisco? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 17 detained after search for illegal immigrants who shot Sheriff's > deputy > > http://www.alipac.us/article5214.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/pinal-co-deputy-shot-4-30-2010 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gGgzImP2k9_40Sl_i3l7IX2Cn7 bgD9FECQK80 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Rep. Gutierrez arrested outside of White House in immigration > demonstration > > http://www.alipac.us/article-5213-thread-1-0.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/luis-gutierrez-arrested-i_n_560731. html He and others were arrested as immigrant advocates. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > IF FOX has lied about these demonstrations, whom at the top has > instructed them to lie? And for what reasons? Two weeks ago we saw > videos made in Arizona of American flags being taken down and > Mexican flags put up in their place. So what are the implications > here? Do the illegals plan to take military action against > Americans- - -the legal kind!!! ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If Fox has lied, this wouldn't be the first time. What's the point of all this anyway? Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 15:03:34 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:03:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I saw a report on FOX that claimed the illegal emigrant supporters > parades were peaceful and there were no arrests. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Speaking of Fox, this just popped up on my radar: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005030051 Beck can be such a twit sometimes (ok, nearly always). Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Mon May 3 15:06:16 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 15:06:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . Message-ID: <4BDF48D8.8040303@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100503/094ec68c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bw_logo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1297 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/094ec68c/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 15:11:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:11:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Car Bomb at Times Square? References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4BDF49EB.000093.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Administration Officials quote say this is probably a terrorist plot with overseas support. Is Obama ready for the first time to actually use the "T" word? What are your thoughts? Top News ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Newsfront Washington Post: Foreign Links Likely in Car Bomb Attempt Monday03 May 2010 02:45 PM Article Font Size The Washington Post reported late Monday afternoon that Obama administration officials were saying for the first time that Saturday night's attempt to detonate a car bomb in New York City's Times Square has foreign links. If true the report was the first time that officials actively have acknowledged the potential of a foreign-linked terrorist plot. Previously some officials seemed to discourage the notion. But there was also little definition of what a foreign "link" might mean. Officials quoted in the story said it didn't necessarily mean direct al-Qaida involvement. The Post story says that "The failed car bombing in Times Square increasingly appears to have been coordinated by several people in a plot with international linksObama administration officials said Monday.. "The disclosure while tentative came as the White House intensified its focus on the Saturday incident in New York City in which explosives inside a Nissan Pathfinder were set ablaze but failed to detonate at the tourist-crowded corner of Broadway and 45th Street." The Post story also quotes an unnamed official: "Don't be surprised if you find a foreign nexus . . . They're looking at some telltale signs and they re saying it's pointing in that direction." "Officials cautioned that even if the investigation points toward an international link rather than domestic or anti-government groups that does not mean al-Qaida or another terrorist organization is necessarily involved. Read the entire story at The Washington Post ? Newsmax. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/07aab85d/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 15:35:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:35:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> Message-ID: <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Yes Jeff, and I note just today that FOX has somewhat moderated their former viewpoint. Well, Beck can at times, not every time, be a brilliant speaker, so accurate that no one has an immediate response, and very persuasive of the masses. Twit at times, maybe- - - - - -but mostly considered by people who do not believe him. With some he might be a half twit, variable by subject matter. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/3/2010 3:03:52 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I saw a report on FOX that claimed the illegal emigrant supporters > parades were peaceful and there were no arrests. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Speaking of Fox, this just popped up on my radar: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005030051 Beck can be such a twit sometimes (ok, nearly always). Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/d5161c0f/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 15:47:49 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:47:49 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006201caeb0c$096aa780$1c3ff680$@com> Message-ID: <4BDF5294.0000AC.01520@DON-B2514E06367> I can say from personal experience that the Minute Men are not aligned with nor associated with the Tea Party or the Coffee Party. The aims of each are to make things better, but the difference is in how they do it. Coffee Party one and two, 1) support Obama, and 2) support Obama Policies. They have government support it appears, they discuss other issues, but do not march based on side issues. They are quite focused, and very close mouth about their finances. The Tea Party will march on any issue of the day, and they are self supported. Possible a billionaire may come along, but until then they support themselves. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/3/2010 3:00:49 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > I saw a report on FOX that claimed the illegal emigrant supporters > parades were peaceful and there were no arrests. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/03/calif-immigrants-rights-march-ends-vand alism-arrests/ Malkin's claim that "the arrests and rioting were not reported by many mainstream media outlets" is absolute nonsense -- typical for Fox news -- while simultaneously downplaying the attack you cite below. Considering the men involved are members of the Golden Gate Minutemen, a group aligned with Tea Partiers, it makes it even more curious why they'd not give the attack more coverage. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Major media did not make the same claims- - -didn't say much at all > about them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< The claim that "major media [...] didn't say much at all about them" is nonsense. There's plenty in the media about the riots, the vandalism and graffiti, about the men that were attacked, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > But now local papers in several cities report news that disputes > what FOX said. > > So which are correct, FOX news or the involved local city news > papers? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Well, based on Fox's lack of integrity on countless news stories in the past, I'd be inclined to automatically give the local newspapers the nod towards credibility. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Immigration Riot breaks out in downtown Santa Cruz windows smashed > fires set > > http://www.alipac.us/article5217.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Plenty of articles in mainstream media about this event: http://tinyurl.com/22qu5q5 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Anti-illegal immigration protesters attacked in San Francisco > > http://www.alipac.us/article5216.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=7417829 http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/05/felony_charges_for_two_alleged.p hp ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The San Diego Minutemen report that the assailants are seen on > bikes in this video of illegals marching with Mexican flags, > communist and anarchist banners... > > VIDEO > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H96O6cAO8U ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< How could the assailants be simultaneously in San Diego and San Francisco? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 17 detained after search for illegal immigrants who shot Sheriff's > deputy > > http://www.alipac.us/article5214.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/pinal-co-deputy-shot-4-30-2010 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gGgzImP2k9_40Sl_i3l7IX2Cn7 bgD9FECQK80 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Rep. Gutierrez arrested outside of White House in immigration > demonstration > > http://www.alipac.us/article-5213-thread-1-0.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/luis-gutierrez-arrested-i_n_560731. html He and others were arrested as immigrant advocates. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > IF FOX has lied about these demonstrations, whom at the top has > instructed them to lie? And for what reasons? Two weeks ago we saw > videos made in Arizona of American flags being taken down and > Mexican flags put up in their place. So what are the implications > here? Do the illegals plan to take military action against > Americans- - -the legal kind!!! ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If Fox has lied, this wouldn't be the first time. What's the point of all this anyway? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/ca21dfc9/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 16:18:26 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:18:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well, Beck can at times, not every time, be a brilliant speaker, > so accurate that no one has an immediate response, and very > persuasive of the masses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Brilliant implies intelligence. I'm certain that characteristic is probably more fairly attributed to his writers. Lack of an immediate response gives no credibility to the claim of "so accurate". More than likely no one has an immediate response because they're absolutely dumb-founded by the claims he's making. He's nothing more than a sensationalist talking-head employed purely for the purposes of getting ratings. His show sprinkles tidbits of fact amidst all the nonsense fodder on his show. He's no better than Limbaugh in that regard. It's op-ed at its worst -- couched under the guise of truth and then apologized away by the show host with the usual "I hope I'm wrong" falsity. Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow what he's peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever doing so much as the most rudimentary fact-checking. His claims *rarely* stand up to most basic of fact-checking. http://mediamatters.org/search/tag/glenn_beck_program Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 16:44:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:44:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . References: <4BDF48D8.8040303@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <4BDF5FCF.0000B8.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Good find Bob. It is information from people in various positions to know what they are talking about, thus provide us the consumers with reasons to hold a modicum of trust in what they say. And OH YES Walt, I think the real twit is Shepherd Smith. And thank another member with providing the correct spelling of Stephen hawking's name. He is an amazing individual as demonstrated by a couple of TV specials as they sat in on a couple of his university class lectures. From that he seems to be a very logical speaker. Don -------Original Message------- From: Bob Browning Date: 5/3/2010 3:06:30 PM To: Grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law Marcia Coyle 05-03-2010 As the U.S. Department of Justice and others weigh challenging Arizona's controversial new immigration law, the Missouri law professor who helped to draft it is preparing to defend it. A Yale Law School graduate, Kris Kobach teaches constitutional and immigration law at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law and is the Republican candidate for Missouri Secretary of State. He launched a detailed rebuttal of criticisms of the Arizona law in an op-ed article in The New York Times. A White House fellowship in 2001 brought Kobach to the nation's capital and a position in the office of then Attorney General John Ashcroft. When the fellowship ended, he stayed on as Ashcroft's counsel and chief adviser on immigration and border security. Kobach is no stranger to immigration controversy. After the 9/11 attacks, he oversaw the Justice Department's efforts to tighten border security. He led the team that designed and implemented the National Security Entry-Exit Registration System, which registers and fingerprints high-risk visitors to the United States, and which led to the deportation of about 13,000 illegal aliens. Kobach takes credit for leading the department's much-criticized reforms of the immigration court system, which reshaped the Board of Immigration Appeals in 2002. Those reforms led to a huge surge of immigration appeals to the federal appellate courts and complaints from federal judges about the summary nature of the board's rulings. He returned to teaching in 2003 and since then, he has developed a busy side career representing local governments in their efforts to attack illegal immigration. For example, he represents the city of Hazleton, Pa., in its so-far unsuccessful defense of its now widely-known ordinance prohibiting businesses from hiring illegal aliens and landlords from renting to them. He defended a similar ordinance from Valley Park, Mo., which a federal appellate court upheld last year. He also represents student citizens challenging states that give resident tuition rates to illegal aliens in Kansas and California. Kobach is also senior counsel at the Immigration Reform Law Institute, a Washington-based legal advocacy group which describes its work as protecting citizens from injuries caused by illegal immigration. And, he is currently on contract to Maricopa County, Ariz.'s Sheriff Joe Arpaio to train deputies on procedures for arresting illegal immigrants. The National Law Journal recently spoke with Kobach about the Arizona law and his role. NLJ: How did you become involved in the drafting of S.B. 1070? KK: I've been assisting the state of Arizona since 2006 when Maricopa County asked me to help defend Arizona's human smuggling statute of 2005 in state court. We prevailed in that case in 2007. I assisted [State Sen.] Russell Pearce in drafting the Arizona employment verification law. That one was challenged as well, this time in federal court. I helped the Arizona Attorney General's office defend it and we prevailed in 2008 in the [U.S. Court of Appeals for the] 9th Circuit. Sen. Pearce asked for my help and others in drafting this law as well as to ensure it conforms to what is permissible under federal preemption doctrine. NLJ: Did you anticipate the national controversy that S.B. 1070 is creating? KK: Frankly, I anticipated some critics to speak out but I did not anticipate it would be this loudly or widespread or become a national story. The prior laws Arizona has enacted were of rather sweeping effect and have been very significant but neither one triggered this sort of national discussion. Arizona in 2007 became the first state to require an e-verify system. There was some protest and some of the same people criticizing S.B. 1070 said that law was unconstitutional. But it didn't become a national story in the same way this has. At the end of the day, the e-verify law probably will have had broader impact in discouraging illegal immigration than S.B. 1070 will. They're both good laws and necessary, but it's somewhat surprising the law with the bigger impact did not create a national discussion. NLJ: How did you ensure that S.B. 1070 conforms with federal preemption doctrine, which is likely to be the major basis for challenging the law? KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the one makes it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration documents on his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only guilty if he is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those provisions have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to register or carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state statute if he is guilty under the federal statute. The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal principle of concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict-preempted if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already prohibited by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to assist the federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is already prohibited under federal law. That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. Bica. In that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact legislation to discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The mere fact that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects immigration in some way does not render it preempted. NLJ: Do you think the Department of Justice will step in to challenge the Arizona law? KK: It would be highly unusual for the Justice Department to do such a thing unless it was being motivated by political calculations. There have been numerous state statutes that represent state action in the area of illegal immigration and the Justice Department has never weighed in to stop states that are trying to reinforce federal law enforcement. I would imagine they would weigh their actions carefully, and they are not going to find any easy challenge in the text of the statute. NLJ: The Arizona law is not effective until this summer. Do you expect a challenge and when? KK: I expect a challenge will be filed and before the law goes into effect. I anticipate I probably will be providing some assistance to the Arizona attorney General's office. They are extremely competent attorneys there and have done very well in defending statutes in the past. They are familiar with preemption doctrine. NLJ: How are you able to juggle litigating immigration cases with teaching and running for political office? KK: The amount of time it consumes varies. Like any litigator, the schedule ebbs and flows. The fact that I'm in various corners of the country might create the impression I'm handling more cases than I am. It's just a handful of cases, and I can do it in my spare time. This Arizona law didn't take an extraordinary amount of time -- just phone calls and discussions with others helping to draft it. NLJ: Are you compensated for your litigation? KK: In most cases, if I'm defending a city or state for example, they'll pay me for my time in helping them. In other cases, it might not work out that way. I've represented plaintiffs suing on in-state tuition for illegal residents. There I'm representing students, so public interest organizations have supported the suits. NLJ: Since the law has become so controversial and your role in drafting and defending it is becoming more visible, how has the controversy affected you personally? KK: It has certainly affected me. There are some people who send nasty emails from time to time. But for every nasty one, I receive 50 or 60 supportive ones. It certainly determines how I spend my free time. But it also has been very enlightening and it has opened up some opportunities to meet some great people around the country. It has been very good. NLJ: Why have you chosen this area of the law in which to focus your energy and efforts? KK: I see my involvement in this area as something I can do to use what expertise I have to help enforce the rule of law in America. So many people look at immigration law and the immigration situation and see it as an unsolvable problem. But based on what I have been able to do -- the litigation I'm involved in and the statutory drafting -- I think our immigration problems can be solved through carefully considered action at the federal level and through state and local action. If you look at any of the categories of crime where there has been a national problem, usually the problem can only be solved when federal, state and local efforts are coordinating and working in concert to achieve the same objectives, and that is certainly true when dealing with illegal immigration. Copyright 2010. ALM Media Properties, LLC. All rights reserved. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1297 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/f7c57389/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/f7c57389/attachment-0003.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 16:52:43 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:52:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com> Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the > ENDA bill? > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon May 3 16:55:23 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:55:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Give me the Rhodes Scholar Rachel Maddow every time over the "opinion" of Beck---who took but did not complete the one college class in which he enrolled. What are his qualifications to be doing anything of a national or international scope? --Mike ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden [admin at jeffhowden.com] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:18 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well, Beck can at times, not every time, be a brilliant speaker, > so accurate that no one has an immediate response, and very > persuasive of the masses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Brilliant implies intelligence. I'm certain that characteristic is probably more fairly attributed to his writers. Lack of an immediate response gives no credibility to the claim of "so accurate". More than likely no one has an immediate response because they're absolutely dumb-founded by the claims he's making. He's nothing more than a sensationalist talking-head employed purely for the purposes of getting ratings. His show sprinkles tidbits of fact amidst all the nonsense fodder on his show. He's no better than Limbaugh in that regard. It's op-ed at its worst -- couched under the guise of truth and then apologized away by the show host with the usual "I hope I'm wrong" falsity. Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow what he's peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever doing so much as the most rudimentary fact-checking. His claims *rarely* stand up to most basic of fact-checking. http://mediamatters.org/search/tag/glenn_beck_program Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon May 3 17:03:45 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:03:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Right, Walt. ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz [waltw at teleport.com] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:52 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the > ENDA bill? > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 17:13:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:13:33 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a joking matter? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the > ENDA bill? > > don > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/3d7c2460/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 17:18:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:18:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Like Obama's only qualification, he is a good talker. Unlike Obama, Beck doesn't speak with forked tongue. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 5/3/2010 4:57:49 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Give me the Rhodes Scholar Rachel Maddow every time over the "opinion" of Beck---who took but did not complete the one college class in which he enrolled. What are his qualifications to be doing anything of a national or international scope? --Mike ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden [admin at jeffhowden.com] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:18 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well, Beck can at times, not every time, be a brilliant speaker, > so accurate that no one has an immediate response, and very > persuasive of the masses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Brilliant implies intelligence. I'm certain that characteristic is probably more fairly attributed to his writers. Lack of an immediate response gives no credibility to the claim of "so accurate". More than likely no one has an immediate response because they're absolutely dumb-founded by the claims he's making. He's nothing more than a sensationalist talking-head employed purely for the purposes of getting ratings. His show sprinkles tidbits of fact amidst all the nonsense fodder on his show. He's no better than Limbaugh in that regard. It's op-ed at its worst -- couched under the guise of truth and then apologized away by the show host with the usual "I hope I'm wrong" falsity. Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow what he's peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever doing so much as the most rudimentary fact-checking. His claims *rarely* stand up to most basic of fact-checking. http://mediamatters.org/search/tag/glenn_beck_program Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/838d35be/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 17:56:02 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:56:02 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> Message-ID: <4BDF709F.0000D0.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow what he's Peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever doing so much as the most Rudimentary fact-checking. Oh, you mean like the masses in congress who signed an important life and death bill without reading it? Is that the kind of fact finding you would like to see? Opinion depends on which shoe is on which foot doesn't it? And it's brilliant speech, but only if you agree with it kind of thing? Otherwise it is egregiously converted to garbage? How so? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/3/2010 4:19:10 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Well, Beck can at times, not every time, be a brilliant speaker, > so accurate that no one has an immediate response, and very > persuasive of the masses. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Brilliant implies intelligence. I'm certain that characteristic is probably more fairly attributed to his writers. Lack of an immediate response gives no credibility to the claim of "so accurate". More than likely no one has an immediate response because they're absolutely dumb-founded by the claims he's making. He's nothing more than a sensationalist talking-head employed purely for the purposes of getting ratings. His show sprinkles tidbits of fact amidst all the nonsense fodder on his show. He's no better than Limbaugh in that regard. It's op-ed at its worst -- couched under the guise of truth and then apologized away by the show host with the usual "I hope I'm wrong" falsity. Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow what he's peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever doing so much as the most rudimentary fact-checking. His claims *rarely* stand up to most basic of fact-checking. http://mediamatters.org/search/tag/glenn_beck_program Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/6aefb56b/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 19:10:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:10:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com> <4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> If you spell out the acronyms. maybe I'd know why it was such a howling emergency. On May 3, 2010, at 5:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a > joking matter? > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill > > Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. > > On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the >> ENDA bill? >> >> don >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at ronhowden.com Mon May 3 19:48:42 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:48:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com><4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> Message-ID: <301226756B024386A60711A95DFDD88E@PRINCE> ENDA = Employment Non-Discrimination Act FRC = Family Research Council (?) My best Google guess. Ron H. ********************************************************** If you spell out the acronyms. maybe I'd know why it was such a howling emergency. On May 3, 2010, at 5:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a > joking matter? > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill > > Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. > > On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the >> ENDA bill? >> >> don From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 19:54:22 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:54:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <301226756B024386A60711A95DFDD88E@PRINCE> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com><4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> <301226756B024386A60711A95DFDD88E@PRINCE> Message-ID: I thought it was Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, just missing the E. On May 3, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > > > ENDA = Employment Non-Discrimination Act > FRC = Family Research Council (?) > My best Google guess. > > Ron H. > ********************************************************** > If you spell out the acronyms. maybe I'd know why it was such a > howling emergency. > > On May 3, 2010, at 5:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a >> joking matter? >> >> Don >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill >> >> Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. >> >> On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the >>> ENDA bill? >>> >>> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 20:15:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 20:15:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com><4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> <301226756B024386A60711A95DFDD88E@PRINCE> Message-ID: <4BDF914D.0000FE.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Alphabet Soup is confusing like that. In 1996 I started a project in Ireland known as IGW, as in Ireland Genealogy Web. I got emails from all over the world about the acronym IGW. One was a wind turbine company from Germany. Eventually all gave permission to use IGW as long as we didn't compete with them in business. I apologize for the confusion I caused. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 5/3/2010 7:53:48 PM To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill I thought it was Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, just missing the E. On May 3, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > > > ENDA = Employment Non-Discrimination Act > FRC = Family Research Council (?) > My best Google guess. > > Ron H. > ********************************************************** > If you spell out the acronyms. maybe I'd know why it was such a > howling emergency. > > On May 3, 2010, at 5:13 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a >> joking matter? >> >> Don >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill >> >> Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. >> >> On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the >>> ENDA bill? >>> >>> don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/0234020d/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 3 22:31:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:31:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill In-Reply-To: <4BDF914D.0000FE.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <2007237086.14924941272922060015.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><19FC1243-1592-4FA5-A5A4-0848571F5290@teleport.com><4BDF66AD.0000C4.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <0293D38F-3C47-4EBB-B8F6-1ACC298A545D@teleport.com> <301226756B024386A60711A95DFDD88E@PRINCE> <4BDF914D.0000FE.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: So OK, Wikipedia says ENDA is a proposed bill in the United States Congress, first introduced in 1994, that would prohibit discrimination against employees on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity for civilian nonreligious employers with over 15 employees. So... sounds pretty limited in scope to me... Most of the objections would probably come from religious groups, and I note the Act is limited to civilian "nonreligious" employers with more than 15 employees. So... Who's opposing it? I googled FRC and got the answer... FRC is just another fundie outfit trumpeting about "the Homersexyuls are a-comin' to GET YOU!" All sorts of dire warnings about how you can get busted for "anti-gay harassment" if you keep a bible on your desk, and similar hysterical fantasies about what the "liberals in Washington" are plotting to do to honest, God-fearing folk.. The real nub of the pitch, however comes at the very end: "Please join with other loyal FRC supporters in our campaign to expose ENDA by sending a generous, tax-deductible donation." Tax deductible donations. Yep, sounds like this outfit is really being oppressed by the liberal establishment. WW On May 3, 2010, at 8:15 PM, donkelly wrote: > Alphabet Soup is confusing like that. In 1996 I started a project > in Ireland > known as IGW, as in Ireland Genealogy Web. > > I got emails from all over the world about the acronym IGW. One was > a wind > turbine company from Germany. > > Eventually all gave permission to use IGW as long as we didn't > compete with > them in business. > > I apologize for the confusion I caused. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 5/3/2010 7:53:48 PM > To: ron at ronhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill > > I thought it was Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, just missing > the E. > > On May 3, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Ron Howden wrote: > >> >> >> ENDA = Employment Non-Discrimination Act >> FRC = Family Research Council (?) >> My best Google guess. >> >> Ron H. >> ********************************************************** >> If you spell out the acronyms. maybe I'd know why it was such a >> howling emergency. >> >> On May 3, 2010, at 5:13 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> OK Walt, so nothing has happened to date and it now becomes a >>> joking matter? >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Walt Wentz >>> Date: 5/3/2010 4:52:16 PM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FRC fighting ENDA Bill >>> >>> Not since LSMFT took on KAMAG YOYO. >>> >>> On May 3, 2010, at 2:27 PM, donkelly wrote: >>> >>>> Has anyone else heard anything about FRC fighting to defeat the >>>> ENDA bill? >>>> >>>> don >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 22:54:13 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Like Obama's only qualification, he is a good talker. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Well, sure, minus all the other qualifications that got him elected. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unlike Obama, Beck doesn't speak with forked tongue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So now we're back to the "Obama is an alien" theory? Or have you gone full-bore into the conspiracy theories and thinking more along the lines of David Icke who thinks Obama is not only an alien, but a reptilian alien. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1526375/barack_obama_shape_shifting _reptilian.html?cat=9 Seriously though, Beck has a forked tongue, for real. Check the attachment if you don't believe me. Jeff -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: glenn-beck-tongue.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13432 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/eb21da39/attachment.jpg From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 23:14:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:14:17 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> Message-ID: <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> If you want to count as qualifications, being friends with the crooked ACORN group, and friends of known terrorists, getting Black Panthers to run interfearence for him, not to speak of CAIR the union organizing communists, and both democrats and republicans in government covering up for him, I suppose those could all be counted as a qualifying skill set. With that kind of help, you could easily become president. But this president is different, and a yellow bellied wimp afraid of grandmas. If he were the right kind of president, grandmas would love him. What's wrong with this picture? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/3/2010 10:54:29 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Like Obama's only qualification, he is a good talker. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Well, sure, minus all the other qualifications that got him elected. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Unlike Obama, Beck doesn't speak with forked tongue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< So now we're back to the "Obama is an alien" theory? Or have you gone full-bore into the conspiracy theories and thinking more along the lines of David Icke who thinks Obama is not only an alien, but a reptilian alien. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1526375/barack_obama_shape_shifting _reptilian.html?cat=9 Seriously though, Beck has a forked tongue, for real. Check the attachment if you don't believe me. Jeff ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/291269d1/attachment-0001.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 23:20:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > What's wrong with this picture? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Your twisted sense of reality is what's wrong with this picture. I have nothing else for you. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon May 3 23:20:30 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDF709F.0000D0.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <4BDF709F.0000D0.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <009b01caeb51$e9b3bf30$bd1b3d90$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > > From: Jeff Howden > > > > Oh, he's persuasive alright, but only to the masses that swallow > > what he's Peddling -- hook, line, and sinker -- without ever > > doing so much as the most Rudimentary fact-checking. > > Oh, you mean like the masses in congress who signed an important > life and death bill without reading it? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Glenn Beck wrote a "life and death bill"? When did we get a life and death bill written? You can't be talking about the recent health insurance bill that passed, are you? When did Congress start signing bills? I thought they passed bills and the POTUS signed them. Wow, and nobody read it? This is big news, please cite your source for that claim. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And it's brilliant speech, but only if you agree with it kind of > thing? > > Otherwise it is egregiously converted to garbage? > > How so? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< No, when it fails to stand up to the test of truth it's summarily (not egregiously) found (not converted) to be garbage. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with it or not. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with how many people agree with it or not. Lies are still lies no matter how you spin them, what you call them, how much you pretend to wish they weren't true, etc. This reminds me of a quote: "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if no one believes it." - Anon. I think you must have missed the link I posted earlier. "His claims *rarely* stand up to most basic of fact-checking. http://mediamatters.org/search/tag/glenn_beck_program " Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 3 23:41:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:41:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> Message-ID: <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> But if it were your reality, are you saying that would be somehow different? If you are in favor of the bill, you could at the very least support it, even defend it. I just think it is more government control, and not necessary. If you disagree, please defend your reasons. A bare disagreement without reason doesn't hold water. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/3/2010 11:20:57 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > What's wrong with this picture? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Your twisted sense of reality is what's wrong with this picture. I have nothing else for you. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100503/700b01dd/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 4 00:01:56 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 00:01:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > But if it were your reality, are you saying that would be somehow > different? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If it was based on hearsay, mistruths, and other fantasies collected from all about the Internet, but devoid of reasonable thought, research, and fact-checking, then that reality would be misplaced. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you are in favor of the bill, you could at the very least > support it, even defend it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't need to state my position on the bill. My position is irrelevant. What *is* relevant is whether or not the facts about the bill are being ignore, twisted, mis-represented, taken out of context so as to make it seem as though they mean something else, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I just think it is more government control, and not necessary. If > you disagree, please defend your reasons. A bare disagreement > without reason doesn't hold water. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What does any of this have to do with your disdain for Obama? Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Tue May 4 01:10:48 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 01:10:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6A69FCB4-E7C1-4A56-A1E5-55F16A5356D5@verizon.net> On May 3, 2010, at 11:14 PM, donkelly wrote: > ... both democrats and republicans in government covering up for him, ... > > ... a yellow bellied wimp afraid of grandmas. ... > What's wrong with this picture? > > Don Aw, gee willikers Don, now I suppose you are going to say that the last good presidential candidate to come out of the Democrat Party was Governor George Wallace. David From jo.david at verizon.net Tue May 4 01:12:25 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 01:12:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . In-Reply-To: <4BDF48D8.8040303@jurislex.com> References: <4BDF48D8.8040303@jurislex.com> Message-ID: At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. David On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > > > The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law > > Marcia Coyle > > 05-03-2010... > KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the one makes it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration documents on his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only guilty if he is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those provisions have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to register or carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state statute if he is guilty under the federal statute. > > The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal principle of concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict-preempted if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already prohibited by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to assist the federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is already prohibited under federal law. > > That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. > > The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. Bica. In that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact legislation to discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The mere fact that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects immigration in some way does not render it preempted. > ... From jo.david at verizon.net Tue May 4 01:13:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 01:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] How cool is this! In-Reply-To: <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> Message-ID: <41C5B252-F9A2-4646-A66D-66181FF31AC2@verizon.net> Great toy. I wonder how long the batteries last? David On May 3, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Kurt Wilke wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIJRsAuCHQ > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 4 02:50:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 02:50:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> Message-ID: <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> I don't see any direct relationship at all. I don't know if he supports it or not, or if he even knows what the bill says. How would I know? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/4/2010 12:02:44 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > But if it were your reality, are you saying that would be somehow > different? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If it was based on hearsay, mistruths, and other fantasies collected from all about the Internet, but devoid of reasonable thought, research, and fact-checking, then that reality would be misplaced. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you are in favor of the bill, you could at the very least > support it, even defend it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I don't need to state my position on the bill. My position is irrelevant. What *is* relevant is whether or not the facts about the bill are being ignore, twisted, mis-represented, taken out of context so as to make it seem as though they mean something else, etc. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I just think it is more government control, and not necessary. If > you disagree, please defend your reasons. A bare disagreement > without reason doesn't hold water. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< What does any of this have to do with your disdain for Obama? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100504/873736be/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 4 07:28:19 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 07:28:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > > From: Jeff Howden > > > > What does any of this have to do with your disdain for Obama? > > I don't see any direct relationship at all. I don't know if he > supports it or not, or if he even knows what the bill says. How > would I know? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yet you call the Health Insurance Reform Act "Obamacare" as if he wrote it. *shakes head* Jeff From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue May 4 07:32:38 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 07:32:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . In-Reply-To: References: <4BDF48D8.8040303@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <9E812A2B013841B18391065BEC8452D8@JeffVAIO> Although I'm not up on the most recent immigration requirements, annual registration has not been required since the early 80's or so. I became a citizen just prior to the 2000 election and although I was required to carry my "green card", there was no longer a requirement to report to immigration officials every January. January reporting was a requirement for many years, but I'm sure it was an overhead that didn't fit in with "less government" and "lower taxes". Not sure if David's reference, 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e), is the most current law or which provision removed the annual registration requirements and other tracking methods. I also remember that when I got married, Immigration didn't even care that I had a name change. And in the most recent years, I didn't even have to report address changes. Even at a young age when they did away with some of these requirements, I remember thinking, why wouldn't they want to keep track of "resident aliens" - those with "green cards"? Green cards, incidentally are no longer green :) Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Morelli" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:12 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . > At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. > > David > > On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > >> >> >> The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law >> >> Marcia Coyle >> >> 05-03-2010... >> KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the one makes >> it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration documents on >> his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only guilty if he >> is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those provisions >> have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to register or >> carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those >> federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state statute if >> he is guilty under the federal statute. >> >> The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal principle of >> concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, >> including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict-preempted >> if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already prohibited >> by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to assist the >> federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is >> already prohibited under federal law. >> >> That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. >> >> The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. Bica. In >> that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact legislation to >> discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The mere fact >> that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects immigration in >> some way does not render it preempted. >> > ... > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue May 4 07:49:39 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 07:49:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . Message-ID: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO> As I read my posting, I realize the second paragraph might be a bit confusing. I became a citizen in 2000, but the green card requirements only apply prior to becoming a citizen. My green card was turned in when I became a citizen of the US. Reporting requirements were in place for "resident aliens" until sometime around 1980. -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Marian Cakarnis" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:32 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . > Although I'm not up on the most recent immigration requirements, annual > registration has not been required since the early 80's or so. > > I became a citizen just prior to the 2000 election and although I was > required to carry my "green card", there was no longer a requirement to > report to immigration officials every January. January reporting was a > requirement for many years, but I'm sure it was an overhead that didn't > fit > in with "less government" and "lower taxes". > > Not sure if David's reference, 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e), is the > most current law or which provision removed the annual registration > requirements and other tracking methods. > > I also remember that when I got married, Immigration didn't even care that > I > had a name change. And in the most recent years, I didn't even have to > report address changes. Even at a young age when they did away with some > of > these requirements, I remember thinking, why wouldn't they want to keep > track of "resident aliens" - those with "green cards"? Green cards, > incidentally are no longer green :) > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "David Morelli" > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:12 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . > >> At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. >> >> David >> >> On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law >>> >>> Marcia Coyle >>> >>> 05-03-2010... >>> KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the one makes >>> it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration documents on >>> his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only guilty if he >>> is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those provisions >>> have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to register or >>> carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those >>> federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state statute if >>> he is guilty under the federal statute. >>> >>> The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal principle of >>> concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, >>> including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict-preempted >>> if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already prohibited >>> by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to assist >>> the >>> federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is >>> already prohibited under federal law. >>> >>> That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. >>> >>> The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. Bica. In >>> that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact legislation to >>> discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The mere fact >>> that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects immigration in >>> some way does not render it preempted. >>> >> ... >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue May 4 08:13:50 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 08:13:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . In-Reply-To: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO> References: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <240625B5-8CFE-458F-A336-9C8155CBAAE0@verizon.net> Thanks Marian, I was confused about the sentence and whether you had to carry the green card after citizenship. In theory I thought we only had one class of citizens and it didn't make sense that you would have to have the card afterward. (Of course in practice we unfortunately do have different classes of citizens - ie those who might be stopped just because they look different in AZ at least.) Katie On May 4, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > As I read my posting, I realize the second paragraph might be a bit > confusing. I became a citizen in 2000, but the green card > requirements only > apply prior to becoming a citizen. My green card was turned in when I > became a citizen of the US. Reporting requirements were in place for > "resident aliens" until sometime around 1980. > > -Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:32 AM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . > >> Although I'm not up on the most recent immigration requirements, >> annual >> registration has not been required since the early 80's or so. >> >> I became a citizen just prior to the 2000 election and although I was >> required to carry my "green card", there was no longer a >> requirement to >> report to immigration officials every January. January reporting >> was a >> requirement for many years, but I'm sure it was an overhead that >> didn't >> fit >> in with "less government" and "lower taxes". >> >> Not sure if David's reference, 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e), >> is the >> most current law or which provision removed the annual registration >> requirements and other tracking methods. >> >> I also remember that when I got married, Immigration didn't even >> care that >> I >> had a name change. And in the most recent years, I didn't even >> have to >> report address changes. Even at a young age when they did away >> with some >> of >> these requirements, I remember thinking, why wouldn't they want to >> keep >> track of "resident aliens" - those with "green cards"? Green cards, >> incidentally are no longer green :) >> >> Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "David Morelli" >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:12 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . >> >>> At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law >>>> >>>> Marcia Coyle >>>> >>>> 05-03-2010... >>>> KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the >>>> one makes >>>> it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration >>>> documents on >>>> his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only >>>> guilty if he >>>> is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those >>>> provisions >>>> have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to >>>> register or >>>> carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those >>>> federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state >>>> statute if >>>> he is guilty under the federal statute. >>>> >>>> The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal >>>> principle of >>>> concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, >>>> including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict- >>>> preempted >>>> if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already >>>> prohibited >>>> by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to >>>> assist >>>> the >>>> federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is >>>> already prohibited under federal law. >>>> >>>> That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. >>>> >>>> The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. >>>> Bica. In >>>> that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact >>>> legislation to >>>> discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The >>>> mere fact >>>> that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects >>>> immigration in >>>> some way does not render it preempted. >>>> >>> ... >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue May 4 08:18:35 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 08:18:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> Message-ID: <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> On May 4, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > *shakes head* > > Jeff > You are a saint Jeff with a greater level of patience than I have. My head has been shaking for a long time. Just thought you might like to know that I appreciate your reasoned replies that make it to the list before my frustrated ones get sent. Katie From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 08:27:13 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 08:27:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FB833@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ditto. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Katie Allnutt Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:19 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration On May 4, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > *shakes head* > > Jeff > You are a saint Jeff with a greater level of patience than I have. My head has been shaking for a long time. Just thought you might like to know that I appreciate your reasoned replies that make it to the list before my frustrated ones get sent. Katie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 08:28:37 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 08:28:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Pick up In-Reply-To: <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FB83C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Katie...I don't have your personal e-mail address. Can you send me a note off G-net? Thanks! --Mike From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue May 4 08:50:24 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 08:50:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . In-Reply-To: <240625B5-8CFE-458F-A336-9C8155CBAAE0@verizon.net> References: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO> <240625B5-8CFE-458F-A336-9C8155CBAAE0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <97F4CD9DCA084198B8399BAE524F36A3@JeffVAIO> Yes - there are definitely different classes of citizens. I doubt that anyone in Forest Grove, would consider me an immigrant, but I was for more than 40 years - legal, not illegal. There is a huge difference and yet I've found many people mix those two classes together. But they divide the classes by skin color and appearance. Hmmmm.... I would much prefer to have the classes defined by what matters: whether someone is here legally or illegally. The legal class has as much right to the privileges of being a US citizen as natural born citizens (barring a few minor privileges), regardless of skin color and appearance. The problem is with illegal residents. They are here for a variety of reasons, not the least of which, are the policies the US has chosen to take over the past 50 years. The illegal residents came here for the same reasons anyone would leave an impoverished situation - to try and better their situation, for themselves and their families. Was it right? No. But they wouldn't be here if they hadn't been able to find work. Or, if our government policies had been designed better, supported by the taxpayers and enforced on a continuing basis. Blaming the illegal residents (and often the children) for an environment which looked the other way for years, is unfair. Many of these people have lived here for many years, paid taxes and Social Security (which they won't benefit from), and have children who only know life in the United States. Perhaps we should have supported our government to enforce the polices which worked, instead of removing all oversight. Isn't it funny that all the things which seem to be going wrong lately could have been prevented with better oversight: financial crisis, immigration crisis, environmental disasters, etc? Oh, but I forgot - that costs money and no one wants to pay taxes for "bigger government". I was under the mistaken impression that government exists to help protect our citizenry from financial, social and environmental disasters, etc. Hhhmmmmm...... -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:13 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . > Thanks Marian, > I was confused about the sentence and whether you had to carry the > green card after citizenship. In theory I thought we only had one > class of citizens and it didn't make sense that you would have to > have the card afterward. > > (Of course in practice we unfortunately do have different classes of > citizens - ie those who might be stopped just because they look > different in AZ at least.) > > Katie > > > On May 4, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> As I read my posting, I realize the second paragraph might be a bit >> confusing. I became a citizen in 2000, but the green card >> requirements only >> apply prior to becoming a citizen. My green card was turned in when I >> became a citizen of the US. Reporting requirements were in place for >> "resident aliens" until sometime around 1980. >> >> -Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:32 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . >> >>> Although I'm not up on the most recent immigration requirements, >>> annual >>> registration has not been required since the early 80's or so. >>> >>> I became a citizen just prior to the 2000 election and although I was >>> required to carry my "green card", there was no longer a >>> requirement to >>> report to immigration officials every January. January reporting >>> was a >>> requirement for many years, but I'm sure it was an overhead that >>> didn't >>> fit >>> in with "less government" and "lower taxes". >>> >>> Not sure if David's reference, 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e), >>> is the >>> most current law or which provision removed the annual registration >>> requirements and other tracking methods. >>> >>> I also remember that when I got married, Immigration didn't even >>> care that >>> I >>> had a name change. And in the most recent years, I didn't even >>> have to >>> report address changes. Even at a young age when they did away >>> with some >>> of >>> these requirements, I remember thinking, why wouldn't they want to >>> keep >>> track of "resident aliens" - those with "green cards"? Green cards, >>> incidentally are no longer green :) >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "David Morelli" >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:12 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . >>> >>>> At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law >>>>> >>>>> Marcia Coyle >>>>> >>>>> 05-03-2010... >>>>> KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the >>>>> one makes >>>>> it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration >>>>> documents on >>>>> his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only >>>>> guilty if he >>>>> is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those >>>>> provisions >>>>> have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to >>>>> register or >>>>> carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those >>>>> federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state >>>>> statute if >>>>> he is guilty under the federal statute. >>>>> >>>>> The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal >>>>> principle of >>>>> concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, >>>>> including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict- >>>>> preempted >>>>> if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already >>>>> prohibited >>>>> by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to >>>>> assist >>>>> the >>>>> federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is >>>>> already prohibited under federal law. >>>>> >>>>> That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. >>>>> >>>>> The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. >>>>> Bica. In >>>>> that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact >>>>> legislation to >>>>> discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The >>>>> mere fact >>>>> that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects >>>>> immigration in >>>>> some way does not render it preempted. >>>>> >>>> ... >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue May 4 08:51:34 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 08:51:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FB833@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <33355D47-7A84-40C6-9FA4-DD9B6C035085@verizon.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FB833@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: I "third" it.... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steele, Mike" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:27 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration > Ditto. > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Katie Allnutt > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:19 AM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration > > > On May 4, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> >> >> *shakes head* >> >> Jeff >> > > > You are a saint Jeff with a greater level of patience than I have. > My head has been shaking for a long time. Just thought you might > like to know that I appreciate your reasoned replies that make it to > the list before my frustrated ones get sent. > > > Katie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 10:19:12 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:19:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> In an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff, I subscribe to Media Matters for America, a progressive non-profit organization that surveys the media scene and _immediately_ identifies lies, distortions, myths, fables, hypocrisy, double speak, poor logic, about faces, etc. If you like Fox News, then there's no real need to watch Fox News. They're on Media Matters all the time. Same for Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, and Malkin. Media matters skewers with equal disregard for political stance, but my soft impression is that Fox, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Times (owned by Rev. Moon) show up with suspicious regularity. Try subscribing to Media Matters: https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and those who sustain them. The Oregonian's page two often has a section that deals with false claims (Caribou Sarah's death panels come to mind). Media Matters serves the same purpose...just several times a day + the previously mentioned contact info. Have a Groverly day! --Mike From khourym at verizon.net Tue May 4 10:31:58 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 10:31:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Curbside Cleanup Message-ID: <6BEA609F-FE7C-4ABB-AB03-D7EAB7FA2413@verizon.net> Reminder: This is the week that we can put out extra bags of garbage for pick up. From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 11:13:51 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:13:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBE3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> A few weeks ago, Gratteri's very quickly put in a new battery for my '97 Acura; I was in a hurry on a nice afternoon to get over to McKay Golf Course for 9 holes with my son...but they noted a loose battery cable that would need repair/replacement. They recommended an Acura dealer do the job. So, I drifted by Ron Tonkin's Acura dealership a few days later and they agreed...it needed a replacement. It would take half a day and cost $350. Hmmm...I thought I could do better than that...so I called Jim's here in town. He has always done a very quick, good job for me. Once I took it in for a tune up and he told me that it didn't need a tune up. So, a little while ago, around 10:30 am, I went over and he took a look and had a young mechanic replace the battery connection (but not the whole wire). It took 35 minutes and cost $10. Jim's Automotive: my hero!! Have a Groverly day! --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Kathy.Ayala at nike.com Tue May 4 11:20:01 2010 From: Kathy.Ayala at nike.com (Ayala, Kathy) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:20:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBE3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBE3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <201005041820.o44IK3gN060287@barrierL241.nike.com> I agree 100% they are great! -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Mike Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:14 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive A few weeks ago, Gratteri's very quickly put in a new battery for my '97 Acura; I was in a hurry on a nice afternoon to get over to McKay Golf Course for 9 holes with my son...but they noted a loose battery cable that would need repair/replacement. They recommended an Acura dealer do the job. So, I drifted by Ron Tonkin's Acura dealership a few days later and they agreed...it needed a replacement. It would take half a day and cost $350. Hmmm...I thought I could do better than that...so I called Jim's here in town. He has always done a very quick, good job for me. Once I took it in for a tune up and he told me that it didn't need a tune up. So, a little while ago, around 10:30 am, I went over and he took a look and had a young mechanic replace the battery connection (but not the whole wire). It took 35 minutes and cost $10. Jim's Automotive: my hero!! Have a Groverly day! --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue May 4 11:47:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:47:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive In-Reply-To: <201005041820.o44IK3gN060287@barrierL241.nike.com> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBE3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <201005041820.o44IK3gN060287@barrierL241.nike.com> Message-ID: Me too! They found and fixed a bad connection for no charge on my old heap. WW On May 4, 2010, at 11:20 AM, Ayala, Kathy wrote: > I agree 100% they are great! > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Mike > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:14 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive > > A few weeks ago, Gratteri's very quickly put in a new battery for > my '97 Acura; I was in a hurry on a nice afternoon to get over to > McKay Golf Course for 9 holes with my son...but they noted a loose > battery cable that would need repair/replacement. They recommended > an Acura dealer do the job. So, I drifted by Ron Tonkin's Acura > dealership a few days later and they agreed...it needed a > replacement. It would take half a day and cost $350. > > Hmmm...I thought I could do better than that...so I called Jim's > here in town. He has always done a very quick, good job for me. > Once I took it in for a tune up and he told me that it didn't need > a tune up. > > So, a little while ago, around 10:30 am, I went over and he took a > look and had a young mechanic replace the battery connection (but > not the whole wire). It took 35 minutes and cost $10. > > Jim's Automotive: my hero!! > > Have a Groverly day! > > --Mike > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Tue May 4 11:50:44 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:50:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive In-Reply-To: References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBE3E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <201005041820.o44IK3gN060287@barrierL241.nike.com> Message-ID: I have been very impressed with Brian from Right Choice Auto - by Dutch Brothers. Quick and honest work. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Me too! They found and fixed a bad connection for no charge on my old > heap. > WW > > On May 4, 2010, at 11:20 AM, Ayala, Kathy wrote: > > > I agree 100% they are great! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Mike > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:14 AM > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: [Grovenet] Jim's Automotive > > > > A few weeks ago, Gratteri's very quickly put in a new battery for > > my '97 Acura; I was in a hurry on a nice afternoon to get over to > > McKay Golf Course for 9 holes with my son...but they noted a loose > > battery cable that would need repair/replacement. They recommended > > an Acura dealer do the job. So, I drifted by Ron Tonkin's Acura > > dealership a few days later and they agreed...it needed a > > replacement. It would take half a day and cost $350. > > > > Hmmm...I thought I could do better than that...so I called Jim's > > here in town. He has always done a very quick, good job for me. > > Once I took it in for a tune up and he told me that it didn't need > > a tune up. > > > > So, a little while ago, around 10:30 am, I went over and he took a > > look and had a young mechanic replace the battery connection (but > > not the whole wire). It took 35 minutes and cost $10. > > > > Jim's Automotive: my hero!! > > > > Have a Groverly day! > > > > --Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 4 11:56:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:56:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4BE06DEF.00000F.00352@DON-B2514E06367> Thanks Mike, I subbed. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 05/04/10 10:19:18 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff, I subscribe to Media Matters for America, a progressive non-profit organization that surveys the media scene and _immediately_ identifies lies, distortions, myths, fables, hypocrisy, double speak, poor logic, about faces, etc. If you like Fox News, then there's no real need to watch Fox News. They're on Media Matters all the time. Same for Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, and Malkin. Media matters skewers with equal disregard for political stance, but my soft impression is that Fox, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Times (owned by Rev. Moon) show up with suspicious regularity. Try subscribing to Media Matters: https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and those who sustain them. The Oregonian's page two often has a section that deals with false claims (Caribou Sarah's death panels come to mind). Media Matters serves the same purpose...just several times a day + the previously mentioned contact info. Have a Groverly day! --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100504/a2ff3824/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 12:00:17 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:00:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In-Reply-To: <4BE06DEF.00000F.00352@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BE06DEF.00000F.00352@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBF9A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> OK...let me know what you think. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:57 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Media Matters Thanks Mike, I subbed. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 05/04/10 10:19:18 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff, I subscribe to Media Matters for America, a progressive non-profit organization that surveys the media scene and _immediately_ identifies lies, distortions, myths, fables, hypocrisy, double speak, poor logic, about faces, etc. If you like Fox News, then there's no real need to watch Fox News. They're on Media Matters all the time. Same for Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, and Malkin. Media matters skewers with equal disregard for political stance, but my soft impression is that Fox, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Times (owned by Rev. Moon) show up with suspicious regularity. Try subscribing to Media Matters: https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and those who sustain them. The Oregonian's page two often has a section that deals with false claims (Caribou Sarah's death panels come to mind). Media Matters serves the same purpose...just several times a day + the previously mentioned contact info. Have a Groverly day! --Mike _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 4 12:02:26 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:02:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <000c01caebbc$589fb100$09df1300$@com> Mike, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Steele, Mike > > Try subscribing to Media Matters: > https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up > > One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise > contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and > those who sustain them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I subscribe to Media Matters too, but not by email. For those that use Twitter, they're also regularly posting their findings there as well. They can be followed by going to: http://twitter.com/mmfa In addition to Media Matters, I keep up with the following: The Sunlight Foundation http://sunlightfoundation.com/ http://twitter.com/SunFoundation Open Secrets http://www.opensecrets.org/ http://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC Fact Check http://www.factcheck.org/ http://twitter.com/factcheckdotorg PolitiFact http://www.politifact.com/ http://twitter.com/politifact For me, the nice thing about following sources on Twitter is that my phone regularly checks my Twitter account and notifies me of new tweets which usually contain links straight to the posted articles. If others have other sources of regular politically neutral info, I'd love to know what they are. Thanks, Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 4 12:05:01 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:05:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In-Reply-To: <000c01caebbc$589fb100$09df1300$@com> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <000c01caebbc$589fb100$09df1300$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBFB8@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Jeff...I knew that you would be way ahead of me on this. I'm stuck in 2002, pre-Tweet days. Working on it though... :-) --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:02 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Media Matters Mike, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Steele, Mike > > Try subscribing to Media Matters: > https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up > > One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise > contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and > those who sustain them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I subscribe to Media Matters too, but not by email. For those that use Twitter, they're also regularly posting their findings there as well. They can be followed by going to: http://twitter.com/mmfa In addition to Media Matters, I keep up with the following: The Sunlight Foundation http://sunlightfoundation.com/ http://twitter.com/SunFoundation Open Secrets http://www.opensecrets.org/ http://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC Fact Check http://www.factcheck.org/ http://twitter.com/factcheckdotorg PolitiFact http://www.politifact.com/ http://twitter.com/politifact For me, the nice thing about following sources on Twitter is that my phone regularly checks my Twitter account and notifies me of new tweets which usually contain links straight to the posted articles. If others have other sources of regular politically neutral info, I'd love to know what they are. Thanks, Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Tue May 4 12:21:58 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 12:21:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Media Matters In-Reply-To: <000c01caebbc$589fb100$09df1300$@com> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E11FBC65@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <000c01caebbc$589fb100$09df1300$@com> Message-ID: Thanks for the links. : ) Katie On May 4, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Mike, > >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Steele, Mike >> >> Try subscribing to Media Matters: >> https://mediamatters.org/u/sign_up >> >> One of the nice features is that each release contains the precise >> contact info so that you can write directly to the offenders and >> those who sustain them. >> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I subscribe to Media Matters too, but not by email. For those that > use > Twitter, they're also regularly posting their findings there as > well. They > can be followed by going to: > > http://twitter.com/mmfa > > In addition to Media Matters, I keep up with the following: > > The Sunlight Foundation > http://sunlightfoundation.com/ > http://twitter.com/SunFoundation > > Open Secrets > http://www.opensecrets.org/ > http://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC > > Fact Check > http://www.factcheck.org/ > http://twitter.com/factcheckdotorg > > PolitiFact > http://www.politifact.com/ > http://twitter.com/politifact > > For me, the nice thing about following sources on Twitter is that > my phone > regularly checks my Twitter account and notifies me of new tweets > which > usually contain links straight to the posted articles. > > If others have other sources of regular politically neutral info, > I'd love > to know what they are. > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Tue May 4 12:30:07 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 12:30:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Curbside Cleanup In-Reply-To: <6BEA609F-FE7C-4ABB-AB03-D7EAB7FA2413@verizon.net> References: <6BEA609F-FE7C-4ABB-AB03-D7EAB7FA2413@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE075BF.2080803@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100504/acd1ca79/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 4 13:02:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:02:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . References: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO> <240625B5-8CFE-458F-A336-9C8155CBAAE0@verizon.net> <97F4CD9DCA084198B8399BAE524F36A3@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BE07D5D.00001D.00352@DON-B2514E06367> 100% ON Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 5/4/2010 8:46:45 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . Yes - there are definitely different classes of citizens. I doubt that anyone in Forest Grove, would consider me an immigrant, but I was for more than 40 years - legal, not illegal. There is a huge difference and yet I've found many people mix those two classes together. But they divide the classes by skin color and appearance. Hmmmm.... I would much prefer to have the classes defined by what matters: whether someone is here legally or illegally. The legal class has as much right to the privileges of being a US citizen as natural born citizens (barring a few minor privileges), regardless of skin color and appearance. The problem is with illegal residents. They are here for a variety of reasons, not the least of which, are the policies the US has chosen to take over the past 50 years. The illegal residents came here for the same reasons anyone would leave an impoverished situation - to try and better their situation, for themselves and their families. Was it right? No. But they wouldn't be here if they hadn't been able to find work. Or, if our government policies had been designed better, supported by the taxpayers and enforced on a continuing basis. Blaming the illegal residents (and often the children) for an environment which looked the other way for years, is unfair. Many of these people have lived here for many years, paid taxes and Social Security (which they won't benefit from), and have children who only know life in the United States. Perhaps we should have supported our government to enforce the polices which worked, instead of removing all oversight. Isn't it funny that all the things which seem to be going wrong lately could have been prevented with better oversight: financial crisis, immigration crisis, environmental disasters, etc? Oh, but I forgot - that costs money and no one wants to pay taxes for "bigger government". I was under the mistaken impression that government exists to help protect our citizenry from financial, social and environmental disasters, etc. Hhhmmmmm...... -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:13 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . > Thanks Marian, > I was confused about the sentence and whether you had to carry the > green card after citizenship. In theory I thought we only had one > class of citizens and it didn't make sense that you would have to > have the card afterward. > > (Of course in practice we unfortunately do have different classes of > citizens - ie those who might be stopped just because they look > different in AZ at least.) > > Katie > > > On May 4, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > >> As I read my posting, I realize the second paragraph might be a bit >> confusing. I became a citizen in 2000, but the green card >> requirements only >> apply prior to becoming a citizen. My green card was turned in when I >> became a citizen of the US. Reporting requirements were in place for >> "resident aliens" until sometime around 1980. >> >> -Marian >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Marian Cakarnis" >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:32 AM >> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . >> >>> Although I'm not up on the most recent immigration requirements, >>> annual >>> registration has not been required since the early 80's or so. >>> >>> I became a citizen just prior to the 2000 election and although I was >>> required to carry my "green card", there was no longer a >>> requirement to >>> report to immigration officials every January. January reporting >>> was a >>> requirement for many years, but I'm sure it was an overhead that >>> didn't >>> fit >>> in with "less government" and "lower taxes". >>> >>> Not sure if David's reference, 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e), >>> is the >>> most current law or which provision removed the annual registration >>> requirements and other tracking methods. >>> >>> I also remember that when I got married, Immigration didn't even >>> care that >>> I >>> had a name change. And in the most recent years, I didn't even >>> have to >>> report address changes. Even at a young age when they did away >>> with some >>> of >>> these requirements, I remember thinking, why wouldn't they want to >>> keep >>> track of "resident aliens" - those with "green cards"? Green cards, >>> incidentally are no longer green :) >>> >>> Marian >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "David Morelli" >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:12 AM >>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] FYI re immigration . . . . >>> >>>> At least this contains some explanation of the proposal. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On May 3, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Bob Browning wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Law Professor Behind the Arizona Immigration Law >>>>> >>>>> Marcia Coyle >>>>> >>>>> 05-03-2010... >>>>> KK: The provision of the law that many have focused on is the >>>>> one makes >>>>> it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry registration >>>>> documents on >>>>> his person. They fail to mention that an individual is only >>>>> guilty if he >>>>> is in violation of 8 USC sec 1304(a) or 8 USC 1306(e). Those >>>>> provisions >>>>> have been around since 1940, making it a crime to fail to >>>>> register or >>>>> carry certain documents. The state statue literally refers to those >>>>> federal statutes. A person can only be guilty under the state >>>>> statute if >>>>> he is guilty under the federal statute. >>>>> >>>>> The principle that protects the Arizona law is the legal >>>>> principle of >>>>> concurrent enforcement. This has been recognized by several courts, >>>>> including the 9th Circuit. It holds that a law is not conflict- >>>>> preempted >>>>> if the state law prohibits the same behavior that is already >>>>> prohibited >>>>> by federal law. Similarly, if a state officer acts in a way to >>>>> assist >>>>> the >>>>> federal government in that action, he concurrently enforces what is >>>>> already prohibited under federal law. >>>>> >>>>> That principle guides any interpretation of S.B. 1070. >>>>> >>>>> The controlling Supreme Court precedent is 1976's De Canas v. >>>>> Bica. In >>>>> that case, the Supreme Court recognized states may enact >>>>> legislation to >>>>> discourage illegal immigration within their jurisdictions. The >>>>> mere fact >>>>> that a state law concerns illegal immigration or affects >>>>> immigration in >>>>> some way does not render it preempted. >>>>> >>>> ... >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100504/42133c86/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 4 13:09:54 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:09:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> Message-ID: <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> Didn't write (not directly anyway), but support? YES. I didn't expect the Washington Post to support conservative opinion in this manner. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/4/2010 7:28:40 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > > From: Jeff Howden > > > > What does any of this have to do with your disdain for Obama? > > I don't see any direct relationship at all. I don't know if he > supports it or not, or if he even knows what the bill says. How > would I know? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yet you call the Health Insurance Reform Act "Obamacare" as if he wrote it. *shakes head* Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100504/9b9c5e79/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 4 14:04:19 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:04:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Legal Emigration In-Reply-To: <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Didn't write (not directly anyway), but support? YES. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Of course he did. It was one of his campaign promises. All of our Democrat Representatives from Oregon supported it to. Maybe we should call it one of the following: - WuCare - BlumenauerCare - DeFazioCare - SchraderCare I fail to see how backing something means it should be labeled with the name of the backer. Or, maybe we should just refer to it as health insurance reform act rather than by the two obtuse titles that reflect the two very large pieces of legislation that make up the whole. - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I didn't expect the Washington Post to support conservative opinion > in this manner. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Entirely clueless to what, specifically, you're referring to here. Jeff From schubots at gmail.com Tue May 4 14:55:28 2010 From: schubots at gmail.com (Susan Schubothe) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:55:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Used Book Sale May 17 - 22 at FG Library Message-ID: The Friends of the Forest Grove Library will hold their spring used books sale at the Rogers Room in the Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific Ave., May 17-22. Thousands of popular titles in good condition will be available at bargain prices. A members-only pre-sale will be held on Monday, May 17 from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. Memberships may be purchased at the door: $5 for individuals and $10 for families. During the week, the sale will be open the same hours as the library. On Tuesday, May 18 and Wednesday, May 19, the sale will be open from 10:00 a.m. to 8 p.m. Thursday and Friday hours will be 10:00 a.m. to 5 p.m. Prices at the sale are $2 each for hardbound books and $1 each for paperbacks unless otherwise marked. On Saturday, May 22 the sale will be open from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. On Saturday only, shoppers can fill grocery bags with sale books and pay just $5 per bag. Please bring your own bag. Library supporters are encouraged to bring donations of serviceable books (no textbooks or magazines, please) to the library between May 10 and May 15. All proceeds from the sale will be used for the benefit of the Forest Grove City Library. We hope to see you there! Susan Schubothe Friends of the FG Library From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue May 4 15:13:46 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:13:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Used Book Sale May 17 - 22 at FG Library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the last sale, I got tons of children's books at 25 cents to 50 cents each which I will be using in October to give books instead of treats to the kids. Jane B-P On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Susan Schubothe wrote: > The Friends of the Forest Grove Library will hold their spring used books > sale at the Rogers Room in the Forest Grove City Library, 2114 Pacific > Ave., > May 17-22. > > > > Thousands of popular titles in good condition will be available at bargain > prices. > > > > A members-only pre-sale will be held on Monday, May 17 from 10 a.m. to 8 > p.m. Memberships may be purchased at the door: $5 for individuals and $10 > for families. > > > > During the week, the sale will be open the same hours as the library. On > Tuesday, May 18 and Wednesday, May 19, the sale will be open from 10:00 > a.m. > to 8 p.m. Thursday and Friday hours will be 10:00 a.m. to 5 p.m. > > > > Prices at the sale are $2 each for hardbound books and $1 each for > paperbacks unless otherwise marked. > > > > On Saturday, May 22 the sale will be open from 10:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. On > Saturday only, shoppers can fill grocery bags with sale books and pay just > $5 per bag. Please bring your own bag. > > > > Library supporters are encouraged to bring donations of serviceable books > (no textbooks or magazines, please) to the library between May 10 and May > 15. > > > > All proceeds from the sale will be used for the benefit of the Forest Grove > City Library. > > > We hope to see you there! > > > Susan Schubothe > > Friends of the FG Library > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From jo.david at verizon.net Tue May 4 19:12:05 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 19:12:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Used Book Sale May 17 - 22 at FG Library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like it. Thinking outside of the book case. David On May 4, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Jane Burch-Pesses wrote: > At the last sale, I got tons of children's books at 25 cents to 50 cents each which I will be using in October to give books instead of treats to the kids. > > Jane B-P From jo.david at verizon.net Tue May 4 19:45:16 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 19:45:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New Age of Contextually "Accurate" Scripture In-Reply-To: <83D9BE29-1AA7-423E-83C0-FB0B531EFB48@verizon.net> References: <005201cae82a$5aeca890$10c5f9b0$@com> <83D9BE29-1AA7-423E-83C0-FB0B531EFB48@verizon.net> Message-ID: If anyone is really interested in going back to what the Bible originally said, reading a copy of the 4th Century St Catherine of Sinai Codex would be in order. It is one of the two earliest bibles known to exist, and it is online! You can even second guess the translations by reading from the scanned original pages. http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/ They say, Codex Sinaiticus is one of the most important books in the world. Handwritten well over 1600 years ago, the manuscript contains the Christian Bible in Greek, including the oldest complete copy of the New Testament. Its heavily corrected text is of outstanding importance for the history of the Bible and the manuscript ? the oldest substantial book to survive Antiquity ? is of supreme importance for the history of the book. We don't need to tolerate claims that the message has been taken over by liberals. This is what it said over 1600 years ago. Luke 12:16 And he said to them: Take heed and beware of all covetousness, for no one has his life in the abundance of the things which he possesses. Matthew 25:34-36 Then shall the king say to those on his right: Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you took me to your homes; I was naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me. David > On Apr 29, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project >> >> I'm shocked, stunned, disgusted, and absolutely not surprised, all at the same time. >> >> Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 5 00:27:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 00:27:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> Message-ID: <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> Does anyone else here see what is happening in this manner? Understanding the tactics of the Left -- Saul Alinksy There's been a lot in the news about Saul Alinsky and the current tactics of the Left in America. But how many of you know just what Alinsky's ideas and tactics are and how they are being used against you today? Saul Alinsky, who died in 1972, began as a hardcore community organizer. Borrowing from Marx, Lenin, and others, he developed effective tactics for social revolution in this country. His disciples and organizations have spread across the nation. But more than that, Alinsky and his ideas changed and radicalized the entire progressive/liberal movement in America. Hillary Clinton wrote her 92-page senior thesis on Alinsky, met him, and was planning to work for him but instead went to Yale Law School and met Bill Clinton. Barack Obama spent years in Chicago working in Alinsky organizations and teaching Alinsky methods. ACORN, which Barack Obama worked for, in an Alinsky organization. Explaining Alinsky's philosophy, tactics, etc. David Horowitz's excellent booklet which explains in layman's language Alinsky's ideas, philosophy and tactics, where they came from, and most importantly how they are being used against you in government and elsewhere. Titled "Barack Obama's Rules for Revolution; The Alinsky Model", it's the best description we've seen on this subject -- all in just 51 pages. The left-wing tactic of "Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It" is from Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals. An Alinsky strategy -- which we are experiencing through Kevin Jennings and his sexual radical cohorts -- is to destabilize the social order. Horowitz writes: ... The radical's only real world efforts are those which are aimed at subverting the society he lives in. He is a nihilist. ... Marx himself summed up the radical's passion by invoking a comment of Goethe's Mephistopheles: "Everything that exists deserves to perish." ... Conservatives think of war as a metaphor when applied to politics. For radicals, the war is real. That is why when partisans of the left go into battle, they set out to destroy their opponents by stigmatizing them as racists," "sexists," "homophobes" and "Islamophobes." ... Alinsky's advice can be summed up in the following way. Even though you are at war with the system, don't confront it as an opposing army; join it and undermine it as a fifth column from within. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/6de7bea3/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 5 00:59:20 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 00:59:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic In-Reply-To: <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00a401caec28$e1010d70$a3032850$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Does anyone else here see what is happening in this manner? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Now I totally understand where you get your approach to things you don't like. Label it worse than it really is and wait for everyone else to grab hold and at worst reel it back in to the happy medium. If you're lucky, they won't put that much energy in and the accepted position on the topic will be further right than the middle and you'll have scored a small victory. Very sneaky of you to use Alinsky's methods. Apparently the Tea Parties have been reading some Alinsky too. http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=7D78B2CE-18FE-70B2-A889E10B1C707 BA6 Just for the record, employing Alinsky tactics when falsely describing Alinsky is rather ironic, don't you think? He's not the demon you describe him to be. Have any of us here done even a 10th of what he's done for humanity? I seriously doubt it. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 5 01:31:12 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 01:31:12 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> <00a401caec28$e1010d70$a3032850$@com> Message-ID: <4BE12CC8.000013.02156@DON-B2514E06367> Yes Jeff. The Coffee Party too. I belong to both and I often howl at the wild charges leveled at both groups. To understand where both are coming from, ya just gotta be there. Many reporters are just clueless, or perhaps just willingly ignorant, Think you got me on one Jeff. BUT since Alinsky has been thrown about so often this past year, and in different contexts, perhaps we can learn something about how such methods work in government today. You know if you disagree with one group you are a bigot or homophobe. If you disagree with another group you are a racist. If you dare disagree with the president, watch out, you are again a racist, or worst, a terrorist. You just cannot win where every possible objecting point of view is smothered by a derogatory label of some ilk. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/5/2010 12:59:36 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > Does anyone else here see what is happening in this manner? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Now I totally understand where you get your approach to things you don't like. Label it worse than it really is and wait for everyone else to grab hold and at worst reel it back in to the happy medium. If you're lucky, they won't put that much energy in and the accepted position on the topic will be further right than the middle and you'll have scored a small victory. Very sneaky of you to use Alinsky's methods. Apparently the Tea Parties have been reading some Alinsky too. http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=7D78B2CE-18FE-70B2-A889E10B1C707 BA6 Just for the record, employing Alinsky tactics when falsely describing Alinsky is rather ironic, don't you think? He's not the demon you describe him to be. Have any of us here done even a 10th of what he's done for humanity? I seriously doubt it. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/62c2d459/attachment-0001.gif From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 5 08:47:35 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 08:47:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . References: <29311B22DA2C4F9B94A0BA7659AAECB4@JeffVAIO><240625B5-8CFE-458F-A336-9C8155CBAAE0@verizon.net> <97F4CD9DCA084198B8399BAE524F36A3@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <602DBA816B4241B98B5711894DB3660C@gerianehzkfhvy> Marian, I've appreciated your sharing your experiences regarding immigration with us. :-) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marian Cakarnis" To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: FYI re immigration . . . . > ................... > Perhaps we should have supported our government to enforce the polices which > worked, instead of removing all oversight. Isn't it funny that all the > things which seem to be going wrong lately could have been prevented with > better oversight: financial crisis, immigration crisis, environmental > disasters, etc? Oh, but I forgot - that costs money and no one wants to pay > taxes for "bigger government". I was under the mistaken impression that > government exists to help protect our citizenry from financial, social and > environmental disasters, etc. Hhhmmmmm...... > > -Marian > ................... > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 5 09:35:27 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 09:35:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic In-Reply-To: <4BE12CC8.000013.02156@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> <00a401caec28$e1010d70$a3032850$@com> <4BE12CC8.000013.02156@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Especially with your vivid imagination! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: donkelly Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 1:31 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 5 10:00:34 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 10:00:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Evolution Message-ID: Interesting! http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th Ed From waltw at teleport.com Wed May 5 10:04:17 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:04:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Saul Alinsky subverting the republic In-Reply-To: <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> References: <893-4BD1DFC6-7775@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4BD5C521.8080204@jurislex.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC167@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03D95EC6D0@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1FCB0466-47B5-4DEF-958E-AAA5DA2F643B@mac.com> <7EF7E3C0-1F4A-47A4-A008-D16D7760FB91@mac.com> <4BDEFE7C.000011.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <50BD607F-BCD1-4C31-A9BF-9ACDD2895EF1@teleport.com> <4BDF19A4.00003A.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <4BDF3190.00005F.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <006501caeb0c$7c3b33b0$74b19b10$@com> <4BDF4F98.0000A3.01520@DON-B2514E06367>, <002401caeb16$f099f570$d1cde050$@com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052A61C@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4BDF67BE.0000C7.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <007b01caeb4e$3aa50470$afef0d50$@com> <4BDFBB34.000122.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <009801caeb51$e6e31300$b4a93900$@com> <4BDFC194.000130.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <00bc01caeb57$b0ce9090$126bb1b0$@com> <4BDFEDCC.000137.01520@DON-B2514E06367> <018d01caeb 96$0cc836b0$2658a410$@com> <4BE07F0F.000020.00352@DON-B2514E06367> <004701caebcd$5f4411c0$1dcc3540$@com> <4BE11DCC.00000A.02156@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7BE4CC18-6DBA-429C-8B13-3D47D7EC0B84@teleport.com> Aw gee, so now "community organizer" is joining "liberal" as one of the right's targeted phrases, to be slowly bastardized until it loses its actual meaning and becomes equivalent to "communist," Marxist," "sexual radical" (whatzat mean? Free Love? Homosexuality? Pansexuality? Obsessive re-watching of old "Lassie" episodes?). For a brisk and cogent look at how this "re-framing" or hijacking of language is accomplished, I can't recommend better than Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant," a slim little book that details how the right-wing think tanks have analyzed the psychology inherent in certain phrases, and how to use them to change the meaning of words and thus subvert communication. The bottomless funds made available to these think tanks has resulted in a powerful arsenal being made available to even the most clueless and downright ignorant of right- wing speakers, such as Sarah Palin. Also instructive is a little "how-to" blurb sheet prepared by none other than Newt Gingrich (he of the "Contract On America"), titled "Language: A Key Mechanism of Control," and distributed by GOPAC in 1996. Note that key word, "Control." This memo consisted of two long lists of words-- one of "Optimistic Positive Governing" words, decreed for use in any reference to GOP programs, proposals, candidates, etc.; the other list, of "negative" words, to be equally obsessively applied to anyone or anything else. This latter list includes "traitors," "unionized," "sick," "welfare," "taxes," and-- no surprise there-- "liberal." The use of the Gingrigh List is glaringly obvious today in speeches made by anyone to the right of Howdy Doody. It's simple. It's blatant. It's downright silly. And it works. "Control" is the name of the game, and so long as "community organizers" can be demonized, marginalized or otherwise kept away from the public, "control" can be maintained by "the right people" over the disorganized and powerless "little people." Gee-- I never thought of it before, but I must be one of those monstrous "community organizers!" After all, a Community Garden is a community organizing effort, generally by and for people who actually need more food. If that's the case, all I can say is, it's a ripoff... where's the Free Love? ;^) Footnote, on Saul Alinsky being "communist:" "I've never joined any organization -- not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever- gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide." --Saul Alinisky, Interview for Playboy Magazine, 1972 "Doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated--" I love it. Describes so many people and institutions in a nutshell. WW On May 5, 2010, at 12:27 AM, donkelly wrote: > Does anyone else here see what is happening in this manner? > > > Understanding the tactics of the Left -- Saul Alinksy > > There's been a lot in the news about Saul Alinsky and the current > tactics of > the Left in America. But how many of you know just what Alinsky's > ideas and > tactics are and how they are being used against you today? > > Saul Alinsky, who died in 1972, began as a hardcore community > organizer. > Borrowing from Marx, Lenin, and others, he developed effective > tactics for > social revolution in this country. His disciples and organizations > have > spread across the nation. But more than that, Alinsky and his ideas > changed > and radicalized the entire progressive/liberal movement in America. > > Hillary Clinton wrote her 92-page senior thesis on Alinsky, met > him, and was > planning to work for him but instead went to Yale Law School and > met Bill > Clinton. Barack Obama spent years in Chicago working in Alinsky > organizations and teaching Alinsky methods. ACORN, which Barack > Obama worked > for, in an Alinsky organization. > > Explaining Alinsky's philosophy, tactics, etc. > > David Horowitz's excellent booklet which explains in layman's language > Alinsky's ideas, philosophy and tactics, where they came from, and > most > importantly how they are being used against you in government and > elsewhere. > > > Titled "Barack Obama's Rules for Revolution; The Alinsky Model", > it's the > best description we've seen on this subject -- all in just 51 pages. > > The left-wing tactic of "Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It > and > Polarize It" is from Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals. > > An Alinsky strategy -- which we are experiencing through Kevin > Jennings and > his sexual radical cohorts -- is to destabilize the social order. > > Horowitz writes: > ... The radical's only real world efforts are those which are aimed at > subverting the society he lives in. He is a nihilist. ... Marx himself > summed up the radical's passion by invoking a comment of Goethe's > Mephistopheles: "Everything that exists deserves to perish." > > ... Conservatives think of war as a metaphor when applied to > politics. For > radicals, the war is real. That is why when partisans of the left > go into > battle, they set out to destroy their opponents by stigmatizing > them as > racists," "sexists," "homophobes" and "Islamophobes." ... > Alinsky's advice can be summed up in the following way. Even though > you are at war with the system, don't confront it as an opposing > army; join it and undermine it as a fifth column from within. > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Wed May 5 11:06:57 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:06:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Evolution References: Message-ID: <733C934E7743482CA60D8EFCAEAEBEF6@gerianehzkfhvy> Thanks, Ed! :) Geri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Davie" To: "Grovenet F.G." Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:00 AM Subject: [Grovenet] Evolution > Interesting! > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th > Ed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed May 5 13:33:47 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:33:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? Message-ID: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction zone. http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove? It sounds like he would be a great storyteller to have. Could this be one of the library events, similar to the archeologist who was here recently? And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort to attend! Just wondering.... Marian From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Wed May 5 14:13:37 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:13:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? In-Reply-To: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> References: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <0471A9DDC5A9474884C46C9761469BF7@Office> Great article, Marian. Thanks for the link. We definitely need to prepare. Leslie -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 1:34 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction zone. http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove? It sounds like he would be a great storyteller to have. Could this be one of the library events, similar to the archeologist who was here recently? And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort to attend! Just wondering.... Marian _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com Wed May 5 14:22:35 2010 From: Leslie.Neyman at pobox.com (Leslie.Neyman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:22:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update In-Reply-To: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> References: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and tsunamis. Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view and excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one place. Thanks again for all of your suggestions, Leslie From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 5 14:41:54 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:41:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update In-Reply-To: References: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <26DFEF655A5C448BBC20BA894254B418@EdDaviePC> I would certainly agree on Pirate's Cove restaurant! One of my favorites. Great Oyster stew! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leslie.Neyman Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:22 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and tsunamis. Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view and excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one place. Thanks again for all of your suggestions, Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed May 5 14:49:00 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:49:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Printer to donate Message-ID: Hi all, I have a large format, black & white, hp LaserJet 5100, available to donate to a deserving organization. Email me off site at edavie at verizon.net. Thanks, Ed From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 5 20:26:44 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:26:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance Message-ID: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. Jeff http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw bwD9FH0N000 Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed for liquidation. NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied natural gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators over zoning and salmon protection issues. The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand for LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next five years." Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million. Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to Bradwood Landing. NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas as demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC as subsidiaries. Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. From allnutt at verizon.net Wed May 5 20:35:48 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:35:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: <9B3EC8E4-00B4-4C7A-9B54-A8DE032B6D9E@verizon.net> Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" Katie On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > liquefied natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > demand for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > natural gas as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > Port LLC as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 5 20:40:03 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:40:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <9B3EC8E4-00B4-4C7A-9B54-A8DE032B6D9E@verizon.net> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <9B3EC8E4-00B4-4C7A-9B54-A8DE032B6D9E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <024701caeccd$d23dd980$76b98c80$@com> Katie, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Katie Allnutt [mailto:allnutt at verizon.net] > > Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I wouldn't be so sure. Someone else might go after the same proposal, but not NorthernStar. Their balance sheet is horrific. Assets: $165,930 Liabilities: about $129.5 million Ouch! Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 5 20:41:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:41:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: <4BE23A7E.000025.02572@DON-B2514E06367> Jeeze folks, there goes part of my retirement. But the best upside is less environmental issues to worry about locally. They can fly their gas offshore if they want to sell it bad enough. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/5/2010 8:26:59 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. Jeff http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw bwD9FH0N000 Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed for liquidation. NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied natural gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators over zoning and salmon protection issues. The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand for LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next five years." Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million. Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to Bradwood Landing. NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas as demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC as subsidiaries. Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/d0556668/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Wed May 5 20:48:50 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:48:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1@JeffVAIO> This was an interesting paragraph: "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million." Did I read that correctly? I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for bankruptcy. Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that private property and then bilked all the contractors? And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have provided hundreds of jobs..... not sure how they would have paid for them.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 5 20:50:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:50:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572@DON-B2514E06367> But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint projects. 130 million is chicken feed to them. Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. Goode goode Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 5/5/2010 8:44:45 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance This was an interesting paragraph: "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million." Did I read that correctly? I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for bankruptcy. Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that private property and then bilked all the contractors? And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have provided hundreds of jobs..... not sure how they would have paid for them.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/796dc75e/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed May 5 22:12:04 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:12:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive and dangerous project. WW On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > liquefied natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > demand for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > natural gas as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > Port LLC as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu May 6 00:41:38 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 00:41:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: Jeff, As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and drawn out battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were not alone, hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar pipeline. When the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal politicians fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, we are diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe Northerstar picked Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times to build LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they thought that pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River and a 220 mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. They were wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate juggernauts every step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process that pose potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't tell you the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly meetings. But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We have our heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of how an organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the cause is right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous and irreversible. The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that they had spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of that money was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of political improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of many of us, there was many more activities between the corporations, politicians and regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money in the pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some politicians move to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose land would be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that were the victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us trouble makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of intimidation of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but this is not the place to list them here. And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and protest. We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, and used every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should be proud of this example of democracy in action. And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and home town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, organizations and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that we killed a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for Oregonians, but they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing and distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after learning the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in diameter and running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first anti-LNG proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this proclamation became the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline routes. You should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand and often led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance organizations followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were incredibly resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects you, or why you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of keeping Oregon green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative solutions to complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is paramount to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to giants of the oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and what we stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint projects whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of profit. We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not lay down our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. jimz PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some informative links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 6 01:46:09 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:46:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572@DON-B2514E06367> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1@JeffVAIO> <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7DEEB05F-C8C4-4117-BC8A-59EC6BFA0565@verizon.net> At a time like this, it may seem like a silly question, but if they have liabilities of 130 million dollars, and they cannot pay their bills, who is taking the loss? Remember the issue with limited corporate liability rules, the owners of the LLC took a calculated gamble. They ran up bills of 130 million dollars with the expectation that an approved LNG project would be salable for big bucks as soon as it was granted. They had bills, who is holding the worthless paper? Is it small time contractors? Or some big time venture capitalist? Or,... since one source of natural gas is GASPROM of Russia, is the money owed to them? Remember how they treated Europe when politics got mixed up with oil and gas deliveries. Was there a connection here to get some Russian control over American energy infrastructure? No smoking gun, just curiosity. David On May 5, 2010, at 8:50 PM, donkelly wrote: > But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint projects. > 130 million is chicken feed to them. > > Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. > > Goode goode > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 6 01:49:16 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:49:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EF6E023-53E1-4D0E-9FD0-1BD37C582FD9@verizon.net> Interesting, but he claimed to have planted a million trees by himself. He must be a lot older than he looks. David On May 5, 2010, at 10:00 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Interesting! > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th > Ed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redhead854 at msn.com Thu May 6 08:13:40 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:13:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Summer Series : Forest Grove Music in the Park. Message-ID: Looking for something to do thats Local, Fun and supporting the schools? It will be the 3rd Sunday, June 20, July 18, August 15 and September 19. I have one last group to get conformation and I will head to the print shop at Pacific probably Monday. Watch for posters around town late next week. 1:00 Open Mic -early sign-ups will be on the group website and I will close early sign-up Sunday Morning before I head to the park. 2:00 Featured Musicians 3:30 JamAll volunteer group of musicians, performers and community members, to help keep the arts alive in Forest Grove School District. We gave $900 to the district last year which gave opportunities to some of our students to go to state to perform. Face book group to keep up to date ask questions about this summers events. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105321679512251#!/group.php?gid=105321679512251 From allnutt at verizon.net Thu May 6 08:34:25 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 08:34:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: I see this effort as the wave of the future. As corporations grow in size and power and political influence above their incredible influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from being steam rolled in every arena. This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people across ideological lines to work together too. Katie On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Jeff, > > As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines > (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and > drawn out > battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were > not alone, > hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across > Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar > pipeline. When > the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal > politicians > fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, > we are > diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe > Northerstar picked > Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times > to build > LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they > thought that > pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River > and a 220 > mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. > They were > wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. > > While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate > juggernauts every > step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and > vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process > that pose > potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. > > Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't > tell you > the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small > fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly > meetings. > But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We > have our > heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the > corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of > how an > organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the > cause is > right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and > distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact > (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous > and > irreversible. > > The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were > withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that > they had > spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of > that money > was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political > maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of > political > improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of > many of us, > there was many more activities between the corporations, > politicians and > regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money > in the > pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some > politicians move > to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose > land would > be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that > were the > victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us > trouble > makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of > intimidation > of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but > this is not > the place to list them here. > > And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and > protest. > We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, > and used > every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should > be proud > of this example of democracy in action. > > And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included > people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and > home > town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, > environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, > organizations > and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a > quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. > > There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that > we killed > a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for > Oregonians, but > they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the > disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing > and > distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. > > Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after > learning > the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in > diameter and > running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes > across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first > anti-LNG > proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this > proclamation became > the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline > routes. You > should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand > and often > led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance > organizations > followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled > successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were > incredibly > resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. > > You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects > you, or why > you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of > keeping Oregon > green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative > solutions to > complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is > paramount > to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to > giants of the > oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and > what we > stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint > projects > whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of > profit. > > We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not > lay down > our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. > > jimz > > PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some > informative > links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden > wrote: > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River >> has filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >> Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >> comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >> natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >> Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >> regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, >> Calif., under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >> activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >> demand >> for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >> in Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >> country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >> fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >> and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >> the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been >> trying to win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >> developing a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >> pipeline near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >> on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >> on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >> natural gas >> as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only >> go forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline >> Co. LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >> Port LLC >> as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu May 6 09:02:28 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:02:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: Yes, crossing ideological lines will be the major challenge. Being of a low, suspicious mind myself, I believe that part of the reason for the increasing coarsening and polarization of public debate... liberals vs. conservatives, pro-environment vs. environment debunkers, freethinkers vs. fundamentalists, progressives vs. Tea Partiers, etc. etc., is that this polarization is being deliberately fostered by politicians and yell-radio hosts, in cahoots with Big Business, so as to fragment and render powerless the general public. Nothing else would seem to completely explain the hysteria (and money) behind the climate-change denial crowd or the Obamaphobes, for instance. So, in simple self-defense, those of us who can't live in fenced wilderness enclaves or private islands had better learn to recognize a manufactured conflict when we see one, and sidestep it to work together on things that really matter... such as surviving in an environment that hasn't been ruined and poisoned in Big Business' remorseless pursuit of ever bigger profits. WW On May 6, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I see this effort as the wave of the future. As corporations grow in > size and power and political influence above their incredible > influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood > to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from > being steam rolled in every arena. > > This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of > people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people > across ideological lines to work together too. > > Katie > > On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The >> Pipelines >> (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and >> drawn out >> battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were >> not alone, >> hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations >> across >> Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar >> pipeline. When >> the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal >> politicians >> fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, >> we are >> diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe >> Northerstar picked >> Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times >> to build >> LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they >> thought that >> pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River >> and a 220 >> mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. >> They were >> wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. >> >> While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate >> juggernauts every >> step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious >> and >> vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process >> that pose >> potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. >> >> Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't >> tell you >> the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with >> small >> fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly >> meetings. >> But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We >> have our >> heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the >> corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of >> how an >> organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the >> cause is >> right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and >> distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact >> (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous >> and >> irreversible. >> >> The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they >> were >> withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that >> they had >> spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of >> that money >> was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and >> political >> maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of >> political >> improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of >> many of us, >> there was many more activities between the corporations, >> politicians and >> regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money >> in the >> pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some >> politicians move >> to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose >> land would >> be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that >> were the >> victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us >> trouble >> makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of >> intimidation >> of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but >> this is not >> the place to list them here. >> >> And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and >> protest. >> We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, >> and used >> every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should >> be proud >> of this example of democracy in action. >> >> And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers >> included >> people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and >> home >> town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, >> environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, >> organizations >> and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had >> become a >> quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. >> >> There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that >> we killed >> a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for >> Oregonians, but >> they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne >> the >> disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing >> and >> distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. >> >> Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after >> learning >> the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in >> diameter and >> running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning >> routes >> across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first >> anti-LNG >> proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this >> proclamation became >> the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline >> routes. You >> should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand >> and often >> led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance >> organizations >> followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled >> successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were >> incredibly >> resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. >> >> You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects >> you, or why >> you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of >> keeping Oregon >> green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative >> solutions to >> complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is >> paramount >> to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to >> giants of the >> oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and >> what we >> stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint >> projects >> whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of >> profit. >> >> We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not >> lay down >> our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. >> >> jimz >> >> PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some >> informative >> links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden >> wrote: >> >>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>> bwD9FH0N000>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >>> >>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>> >>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>> >>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development >>> of a >>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River >>> has filed >>> for liquidation. >>> >>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>> Chapter 7 >>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>> >>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>> comment on >>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>> Landing >>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>> >>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>> abandoned >>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >>> natural >>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>> Federal >>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>> regulators >>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>> >>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, >>> Calif., under >>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>> activity. >>> >>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>> increased >>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>> demand >>> for >>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>> in Oregon >>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>> >>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>> country >>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>> fruition," he >>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>> and the >>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>> the next >>> five years." >>> >>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been >>> trying to win >>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>> >>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>> liabilities >>> of about $129.5 million. >>> >>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>> developing a >>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>> pipeline near >>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>> on to >>> Bradwood Landing. >>> >>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>> on the >>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>> natural gas >>> as >>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only >>> go forward >>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>> >>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>> >>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline >>> Co. LLC, >>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>> Port LLC >>> as >>> subsidiaries. >>> >>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu May 6 09:11:57 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:11:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> Message-ID: Walt, Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous battle. Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and courage of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal regulatory authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what energy resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few trump cards to stop them). For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run parallel lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" environmental impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even this last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big Oil. It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual proof in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the system, you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The investment speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an iceberg called Oregon Activism. Be proud. jimz On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > and dangerous project. > WW > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > > bwD9FH0N000 > > > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > > filed > > for liquidation. > > > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > > comment on > > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > > Landing > > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > > abandoned > > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > > liquefied natural > > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > > Federal > > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > > regulators > > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > > under > > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > > activity. > > > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > > increased > > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > > demand for > > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > > in Oregon > > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > > country > > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > > fruition," he > > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > > and the > > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > > the next > > five years." > > > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > > to win > > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > > liabilities > > of about $129.5 million. > > > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > > developing a > > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > > pipeline near > > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > > on to > > Bradwood Landing. > > > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > > on the > > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > > natural gas as > > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > > forward > > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > > LLC, > > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > > Port LLC as > > subsidiaries. > > > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu May 6 09:25:04 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:25:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Jim...we are all indebted to you and your co-workers for this amazing result. Please accept my personal thanks. I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning. Clueless. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zaleski Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance Walt, Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous battle. Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and courage of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal regulatory authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what energy resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few trump cards to stop them). For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run parallel lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" environmental impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even this last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big Oil. It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual proof in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the system, you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The investment speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an iceberg called Oregon Activism. Be proud. jimz On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > and dangerous project. > WW > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > > bwD9FH0N000 > > > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > > filed > > for liquidation. > > > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > > comment on > > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > > Landing > > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > > abandoned > > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > > liquefied natural > > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > > Federal > > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > > regulators > > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > > under > > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > > activity. > > > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > > increased > > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > > demand for > > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > > in Oregon > > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > > country > > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > > fruition," he > > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > > and the > > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > > the next > > five years." > > > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > > to win > > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > > liabilities > > of about $129.5 million. > > > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > > developing a > > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > > pipeline near > > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > > on to > > Bradwood Landing. > > > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > > on the > > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > > natural gas as > > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > > forward > > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > > LLC, > > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > > Port LLC as > > subsidiaries. > > > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu May 6 09:28:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:28:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <6670D713-60C6-4807-ADF0-0CC2E1869CBE@teleport.com> True enough, Jim-- the united opposition of so many people must have had some influence on the financiers, while local politicians realized they could doom their future careers by rolling over for Big Oil. And the oil rig disaster off Louisiana might have been the last nail in the coffin. The rationale the market analysts put forward, of course, is that natural gas supplies are high and prices stagnant, therefore the project was "postponed" as a bad investment. Maybe so, maybe no. But the relentless pursuit of profits by the "Rape, Ruin & Run" crowd will continue for the foreseeable future, so hopefully we can ignore divisive distractions to stay united in defense of the place we live. WW On May 6, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Walt, > > Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous > battle. > Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence > and courage > of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout > Oregon, > the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully > expected > the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen > watchdog > groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and > federal > regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory > Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal > regulatory > authority took much of the power of individual states to decide > what energy > resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held > very few > trump cards to stop them). > > For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing > pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run > parallel > lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than > a miles > apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this > process, > they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" > environmental > impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving > approval > based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to > determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say > in the > process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other > environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But > even this > last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying > by Big > Oil. > > It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were > holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable > investment, > including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no > actual proof > in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of > some > officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of > high paid > lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent > the system, > you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. > > So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, > I put > that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The > investment > speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been > breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran > into an > iceberg called Oregon Activism. > > Be proud. > > jimz > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the >> thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic >> calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all >> the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive >> and dangerous project. >> WW >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>> bwD9FH0N000 >>> >>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>> >>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>> >>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development >>> of a >>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >>> filed >>> for liquidation. >>> >>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>> Chapter 7 >>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>> >>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>> comment on >>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>> Landing >>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>> >>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>> abandoned >>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >>> liquefied natural >>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>> Federal >>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>> regulators >>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>> >>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >>> under >>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>> activity. >>> >>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>> increased >>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>> demand for >>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>> in Oregon >>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>> >>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>> country >>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>> fruition," he >>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>> and the >>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>> the next >>> five years." >>> >>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >>> to win >>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>> >>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>> liabilities >>> of about $129.5 million. >>> >>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>> developing a >>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>> pipeline near >>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>> on to >>> Bradwood Landing. >>> >>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>> on the >>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>> natural gas as >>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >>> forward >>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>> >>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>> >>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >>> LLC, >>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>> Port LLC as >>> subsidiaries. >>> >>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu May 6 09:38:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:38:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Message-ID: <4BE2F070.00000B.00784@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Jim, and good morning all. Because I wasn't looking in the right place, a whispered rumor of a pipeline around here did not take shape until I heard about it in greater detail on this list. On the Internet, as no surprise, there were a lot of pro and con comments about it. With all of that, the nagging question in mind was, what is in it for Oregon? I had to laugh as you described the grass roots movement, the meetings, the confrontations, and the very scope of people in diverse groups all working together to a common end to protect Oregon. I had to laugh because had the Tea Party been around when this effort was started, they would have added their voices and supported it too. In closing I commend your efforts, and everyone else who supported it. Donkelly, member of Coffee and Tea Parties. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/6703f506/attachment-0001.gif From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu May 6 09:57:18 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] James Roddey, the Earth Science guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <981190.35428.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have passed the request to have James Roddy come out here to speak on to the programming person at the library.? If it happened it would be next year as the current round of library programs has ended for now.? Of course, the Rogers Room at the library is always available ($10.00 an hours to rent) if anyone out there wants to arrange a program separate from what the library itself arranges..... ? Alana --- On Thu, 5/6/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com wrote: From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:38 AM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? (Marian Cakarnis) ???2. Re: Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? (Leslie.Neyman) ???3. Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update (Leslie.Neyman) ???4. Re: Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update (Ed Davie) ???5. Printer to donate (Ed Davie) ???6. Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jeff Howden) ???7. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Katie Allnutt) ???8. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jeff Howden) ???9. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) ? 10. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Marian Cakarnis) ? 11. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) ? 12. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) ? 13. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jim Zaleski) ? 14. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (David Morelli) ? 15. Re: Evolution (David Morelli) ? 16. Summer Series : Forest Grove Music in the Park. (Holly Di) ? 17. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Katie Allnutt) ? 18. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) ? 19. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jim Zaleski) ? 20. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Steele, Mike) ? 21. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) ? 22. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:33:47 -0700 From: "Marian Cakarnis" Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9 at JeffVAIO> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction zone.? http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove?? It sounds like he would be a great storyteller to have.? Could this be one of the library events, similar to the archeologist who was here recently? And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort to attend! Just wondering.... Marian ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:13:37 -0700 From: "Leslie.Neyman" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <0471A9DDC5A9474884C46C9761469BF7 at Office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great article, Marian. Thanks for the link. We definitely need to prepare. Leslie -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 1:34 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction zone.? http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove?? It sounds like he would be a great storyteller to have.? Could this be one of the library events, similar to the archeologist who was here recently? And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort to attend! Just wondering.... Marian _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:22:35 -0700 From: "Leslie.Neyman" Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and tsunamis. Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view and excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one place. Thanks again for all of your suggestions, Leslie ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:41:54 -0700 From: "Ed Davie" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <26DFEF655A5C448BBC20BA894254B418 at EdDaviePC> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" I would certainly agree on Pirate's Cove restaurant! One of my favorites. Great Oyster stew! Ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Leslie.Neyman Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:22 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and tsunamis. Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view and excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one place. Thanks again for all of your suggestions, Leslie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:49:00 -0700 From: "Ed Davie" Subject: [Grovenet] Printer to donate To: "Grovenet F.G." Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, I have a large format, black & white, hp LaserJet 5100, available to donate to a deserving organization. Email me off site at edavie at verizon.net. Thanks, Ed ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:26:44 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii" I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. Jeff http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw bwD9FH0N000 Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed for liquidation. NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied natural gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators over zoning and salmon protection issues. The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand for LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next five years." Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million. Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to Bradwood Landing. NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas as demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC as subsidiaries. Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:35:48 -0700 From: Katie Allnutt Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list ??? Message-ID: <9B3EC8E4-00B4-4C7A-9B54-A8DE032B6D9E at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" Katie On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has? > filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not? > comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood? > Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an? > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive? > liquefied natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the? > Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state? > regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif.,? > under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of? > activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said? > increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the? > demand for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities? > in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this? > country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to? > fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices? > and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over? > the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying? > to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and? > liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been? > developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest? > pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and? > on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work? > on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic? > natural gas as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go? > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co.? > LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater? > Port LLC as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:40:03 -0700 From: Jeff Howden Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Message-ID: <024701caeccd$d23dd980$76b98c80$@com> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="us-ascii" Katie, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Katie Allnutt [mailto:allnutt at verizon.net] > > Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I wouldn't be so sure.? Someone else might go after the same proposal, but not NorthernStar.? Their balance sheet is horrific. ? ???Assets: $165,930 Liabilities: about $129.5 million Ouch! Jeff ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:41:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: ,??? "Forest Grove local interests list" ??? Message-ID: <4BE23A7E.000025.02572 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jeeze folks, there goes part of my retirement. But the best upside is less environmental issues to worry about locally. They can fly their gas offshore if they want to sell it bad enough. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/5/2010 8:26:59 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. Jeff http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw bwD9FH0N000 Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed for liquidation. NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied natural gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators over zoning and salmon protection issues. The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand for LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next five years." Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million. Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to Bradwood Landing. NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas as demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC as subsidiaries. Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/d0556668/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:48:50 -0700 From: "Marian Cakarnis" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: ,??? "Forest Grove local interests list" ??? Message-ID: <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1 at JeffVAIO> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; ??? reply-type=original This was an interesting paragraph: "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million." Did I read that correctly? I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for bankruptcy.? Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that private property and then bilked all the contractors? And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have provided hundreds of jobs.....? not sure how they would have paid for them.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:50:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint projects. 130 million is chicken feed to them. Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. Goode goode Don -------Original Message------- From: Marian Cakarnis Date: 5/5/2010 8:44:45 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com;? Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance This was an interesting paragraph: "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities of about $129.5 million." Did I read that correctly? I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for bankruptcy.? Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that private property and then bilked all the contractors? And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have provided hundreds of jobs.....? not sure how they would have paid for them.... Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Howden" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/796dc75e/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:12:04 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list ??? Message-ID: <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the? thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic? calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all? the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive? and dangerous project. WW On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has? > filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not? > comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood? > Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an? > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive? > liquefied natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the? > Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state? > regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif.,? > under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of? > activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said? > increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the? > demand for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities? > in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this? > country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to? > fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices? > and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over? > the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying? > to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and? > liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been? > developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest? > pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and? > on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work? > on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic? > natural gas as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go? > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co.? > LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater? > Port LLC as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 00:41:38 -0700 From: Jim Zaleski Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list ??? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jeff, As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and drawn out battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were not alone, hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar pipeline. When the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal politicians fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, we are diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe Northerstar picked Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times to build LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they thought that pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River and a 220 mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. They were wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate juggernauts every step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process that pose potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't tell you the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly meetings. But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We have our heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of how an organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the cause is right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous and irreversible. The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that they had spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of that money was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of political improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of many of us, there was many more activities between the corporations, politicians and regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money in the pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some politicians move to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose land would be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that were the victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us trouble makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of intimidation of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but this is not the place to list them here. And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and protest. We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, and used every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should be proud of this example of democracy in action. And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and home town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, organizations and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that we killed a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for Oregonians, but they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing and distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after learning the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in diameter and running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first anti-LNG proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this proclamation became the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline routes. You should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand and often led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance organizations followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were incredibly resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects you, or why you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of keeping Oregon green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative solutions to complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is paramount to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to giants of the oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and what we stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint projects whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of profit. We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not lay down our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. jimz PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some informative links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:46:09 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: donkelly ,??? Forest Grove local interests ??? list Message-ID: <7DEEB05F-C8C4-4117-BC8A-59EC6BFA0565 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At a time like this, it may seem like a silly question, but if they have liabilities of 130 million dollars, and they cannot pay their bills, who is taking the loss? Remember the issue with limited corporate liability rules, the owners of the LLC took a calculated gamble.? They ran up bills of 130 million dollars with the expectation that an approved LNG project would be salable for big bucks as soon as it was granted.? They had bills, who is holding the worthless paper? Is it small time contractors?? Or some big time venture capitalist? Or,... since one source of natural gas is GASPROM of Russia, is the money owed to them?? Remember how they treated Europe when politics got mixed up with oil and gas deliveries.? Was there a connection here to get some Russian control over American energy infrastructure?? No smoking gun, just curiosity. David On May 5, 2010, at 8:50 PM, donkelly wrote: > But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint projects. > 130 million is chicken feed to them. > > Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. > > Goode goode > > Don ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:49:16 -0700 From: David Morelli Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Evolution To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <7EF6E023-53E1-4D0E-9FD0-1BD37C582FD9 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Interesting, but he claimed to have planted a million trees by himself.? He must be a lot older than he looks. David On May 5, 2010, at 10:00 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Interesting! > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th > Ed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:13:40 -0700 From: Holly Di Subject: [Grovenet] Summer Series : Forest Grove Music in the Park. To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Looking for something to do thats Local, Fun and supporting the schools? ? ? ? ? It will be the 3rd Sunday, June 20, July 18, August 15 and September 19. I have one last group to get conformation and I will head to the print shop at Pacific probably Monday. Watch for posters around town late next week. 1:00 Open Mic -early sign-ups will be on the group website and I will close early sign-up Sunday Morning before I head to the park. 2:00 Featured Musicians 3:30 JamAll volunteer group of musicians, performers and community members, to help keep the arts alive in Forest Grove School District. We gave $900 to the district last year which gave opportunities to some of our students to go to state to perform. Face book group to keep up to date ask questions about this summers events.? http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105321679512251#!/group.php?gid=105321679512251 ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 08:34:25 -0700 From: Katie Allnutt Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I see this effort as the wave of the future.? As corporations grow in? size and power and political influence above their incredible? influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood? to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from? being steam rolled in every arena. This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of? people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people? across ideological lines to work together too. Katie On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Jeff, > > As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines > (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and? > drawn out > battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were? > not alone, > hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across > Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar? > pipeline. When > the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal? > politicians > fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many,? > we are > diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe? > Northerstar picked > Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times? > to build > LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they? > thought that > pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River? > and a 220 > mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap.? > They were > wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. > > While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate? > juggernauts every > step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and > vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process? > that pose > potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. > > Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't? > tell you > the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small > fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly? > meetings. > But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We? > have our > heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the > corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of? > how an > organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the? > cause is > right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and > distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact > (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous? > and > irreversible. > > The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were > withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that? > they had > spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of? > that money > was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political > maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of? > political > improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of? > many of us, > there was many more activities between the corporations,? > politicians and > regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money? > in the > pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some? > politicians move > to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose? > land would > be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that? > were the > victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us? > trouble > makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of? > intimidation > of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but? > this is not > the place to list them here. > > And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and? > protest. > We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could,? > and used > every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should? > be proud > of this example of democracy in action. > > And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included > people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and? > home > town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, > environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen,? > organizations > and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a > quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. > > There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that? > we killed > a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for? > Oregonians, but > they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the > disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing? > and > distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. > > Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after? > learning > the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in? > diameter and > running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes > across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first? > anti-LNG > proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this? > proclamation became > the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline? > routes. You > should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand? > and often > led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance? > organizations > followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled > successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were? > incredibly > resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. > > You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects? > you, or why > you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of? > keeping Oregon > green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative? > solutions to > complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is? > paramount > to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to? > giants of the > oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and? > what we > stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint? > projects > whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of? > profit. > > We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not? > lay down > our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. > > jimz > > PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some? > informative > links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden ? > wrote: > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River? >> has filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for? >> Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not? >> comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood? >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an? >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >> natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the? >> Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state? >> regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard,? >> Calif., under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of? >> activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said? >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the? >> demand >> for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities? >> in Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this? >> country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to? >> fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices? >> and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over? >> the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been? >> trying to win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and? >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been? >> developing a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest? >> pipeline near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and? >> on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work? >> on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic? >> natural gas >> as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only? >> go forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline? >> Co. LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater? >> Port LLC >> as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:02:28 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Yes, crossing ideological lines will be the major challenge. Being of a low, suspicious mind myself, I believe that part of the? reason for the increasing coarsening and polarization of public? debate... liberals vs. conservatives, pro-environment vs. environment? debunkers, freethinkers vs. fundamentalists, progressives vs. Tea? Partiers, etc. etc., is that this polarization is being deliberately? fostered by politicians and yell-radio hosts, in cahoots with Big? Business, so as to fragment and render powerless the general public.? Nothing else would seem to completely explain the hysteria (and? money) behind the climate-change denial crowd or the Obamaphobes, for? instance. So, in simple self-defense, those of us who can't live in fenced? wilderness enclaves or private islands had better learn to recognize? a manufactured conflict when we see one, and sidestep it to work? together on things that really matter... such as surviving in an? environment that hasn't been ruined and poisoned in Big Business'? remorseless pursuit of ever bigger profits. WW On May 6, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > I see this effort as the wave of the future.? As corporations grow in > size and power and political influence above their incredible > influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood > to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from > being steam rolled in every arena. > > This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of > people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people > across ideological lines to work together too. > > Katie > > On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The? >> Pipelines >> (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and >> drawn out >> battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were >> not alone, >> hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations? >> across >> Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar >> pipeline. When >> the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal >> politicians >> fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, >> we are >> diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe >> Northerstar picked >> Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times >> to build >> LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they >> thought that >> pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River >> and a 220 >> mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. >> They were >> wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. >> >> While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate >> juggernauts every >> step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious? >> and >> vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process >> that pose >> potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. >> >> Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't >> tell you >> the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with? >> small >> fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly >> meetings. >> But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We >> have our >> heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the >> corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of >> how an >> organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the >> cause is >> right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and >> distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact >> (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous >> and >> irreversible. >> >> The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they? >> were >> withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that >> they had >> spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of >> that money >> was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and? >> political >> maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of >> political >> improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of >> many of us, >> there was many more activities between the corporations, >> politicians and >> regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money >> in the >> pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some >> politicians move >> to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose >> land would >> be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that >> were the >> victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us >> trouble >> makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of >> intimidation >> of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but >> this is not >> the place to list them here. >> >> And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and >> protest. >> We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, >> and used >> every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should >> be proud >> of this example of democracy in action. >> >> And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers? >> included >> people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and >> home >> town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, >> environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, >> organizations >> and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had? >> become a >> quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. >> >> There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that >> we killed >> a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for >> Oregonians, but >> they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne? >> the >> disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing >> and >> distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. >> >> Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after >> learning >> the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in >> diameter and >> running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning? >> routes >> across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first >> anti-LNG >> proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this >> proclamation became >> the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline >> routes. You >> should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand >> and often >> led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance >> organizations >> followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled >> successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were >> incredibly >> resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. >> >> You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects >> you, or why >> you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of >> keeping Oregon >> green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative >> solutions to >> complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is >> paramount >> to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to >> giants of the >> oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and >> what we >> stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint >> projects >> whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of >> profit. >> >> We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not >> lay down >> our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. >> >> jimz >> >> PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some >> informative >> links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden >> wrote: >> >>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>> bwD9FH0N000>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >>> >>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>> >>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>> >>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development? >>> of a >>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River >>> has filed >>> for liquidation. >>> >>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>> Chapter 7 >>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>> >>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>> comment on >>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>> Landing >>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>> >>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>> abandoned >>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >>> natural >>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>> Federal >>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>> regulators >>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>> >>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, >>> Calif., under >>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>> activity. >>> >>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>> increased >>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>> demand >>> for >>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>> in Oregon >>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>> >>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>> country >>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>> fruition," he >>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>> and the >>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>> the next >>> five years." >>> >>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been >>> trying to win >>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>> >>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>> liabilities >>> of about $129.5 million. >>> >>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>> developing a >>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>> pipeline near >>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>> on to >>> Bradwood Landing. >>> >>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>> on the >>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>> natural gas >>> as >>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only >>> go forward >>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>> >>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>> >>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline >>> Co. LLC, >>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>> Port LLC >>> as >>> subsidiaries. >>> >>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:11:57 -0700 From: Jim Zaleski Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Walt, Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous battle. Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and courage of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal regulatory authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what energy resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few trump cards to stop them). For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run parallel lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" environmental impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even this last gasp modicum of? control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big Oil. It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual proof in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the system, you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The investment speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an iceberg called Oregon Activism. Be proud. jimz On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > and dangerous project. > WW > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > > bwD9FH0N000 > > > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > > filed > > for liquidation. > > > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > > comment on > > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > > Landing > > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > > abandoned > > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > > liquefied natural > > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > > Federal > > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > > regulators > > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > > under > > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > > activity. > > > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > > increased > > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > > demand for > > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > > in Oregon > > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > > country > > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > > fruition," he > > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > > and the > > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > > the next > > five years." > > > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > > to win > > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > > liabilities > > of about $129.5 million. > > > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > > developing a > > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > > pipeline near > > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > > on to > > Bradwood Landing. > > > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > > on the > > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > > natural gas as > > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > > forward > > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > > LLC, > > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > > Port LLC as > > subsidiaries. > > > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:25:04 -0700 From: "Steele, Mike" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: ??? <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim...we are all indebted to you and your co-workers for this amazing result.? Please accept my personal thanks. I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning.? Clueless. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zaleski Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:12 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance Walt, Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous battle. Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and courage of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal regulatory authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what energy resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few trump cards to stop them). For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run parallel lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" environmental impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even this last gasp modicum of? control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big Oil. It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual proof in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the system, you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The investment speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an iceberg called Oregon Activism. Be proud. jimz On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > and dangerous project. > WW > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > > bwD9FH0N000 > > > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > > filed > > for liquidation. > > > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > > comment on > > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > > Landing > > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > > abandoned > > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > > liquefied natural > > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > > Federal > > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > > regulators > > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > > under > > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > > activity. > > > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > > increased > > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > > demand for > > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > > in Oregon > > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > > country > > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > > fruition," he > > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > > and the > > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > > the next > > five years." > > > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > > to win > > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > > liabilities > > of about $129.5 million. > > > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > > developing a > > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > > pipeline near > > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > > on to > > Bradwood Landing. > > > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > > on the > > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > > natural gas as > > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > > forward > > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > > LLC, > > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > > Port LLC as > > subsidiaries. > > > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:28:20 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <6670D713-60C6-4807-ADF0-0CC2E1869CBE at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed True enough, Jim-- the united opposition of so many people must have? had some influence on the financiers, while local politicians? realized they could doom their future careers by rolling over for Big? Oil. And the oil rig disaster off Louisiana might have been the last? nail in the coffin. The rationale the market analysts put forward, of course, is that? natural gas supplies are high and prices stagnant, therefore the? project was "postponed" as a bad investment. Maybe so, maybe no. But? the relentless pursuit of profits by the "Rape, Ruin & Run" crowd? will continue for the foreseeable future, so hopefully we can ignore? divisive distractions to stay united in defense of the place we live. WW On May 6, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Walt, > > Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous? > battle. > Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence? > and courage > of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout? > Oregon, > the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully? > expected > the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen? > watchdog > groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and? > federal > regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory > Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal? > regulatory > authority took much of the power of individual states to decide? > what energy > resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held? > very few > trump cards to stop them). > > For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing > pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run? > parallel > lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than? > a miles > apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this? > process, > they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined"? > environmental > impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving? > approval > based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to > determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say? > in the > process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other > environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But? > even this > last gasp modicum of? control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying? > by Big > Oil. > > It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were > holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable? > investment, > including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no? > actual proof > in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of? > some > officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of? > high paid > lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent? > the system, > you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. > > So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down,? > I put > that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The? > investment > speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been > breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran? > into an > iceberg called Oregon Activism. > > Be proud. > > jimz > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz ? > wrote: > >> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the >> thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic >> calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all >> the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive >> and dangerous project. >> WW >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> >>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>> bwD9FH0N000 >>> >>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>> >>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>> >>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development? >>> of a >>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >>> filed >>> for liquidation. >>> >>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for? >>> Chapter 7 >>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>> >>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>> comment on >>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>> Landing >>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>> >>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>> abandoned >>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >>> liquefied natural >>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>> Federal >>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>> regulators >>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>> >>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >>> under >>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>> activity. >>> >>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>> increased >>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>> demand for >>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>> in Oregon >>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>> >>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>> country >>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>> fruition," he >>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>> and the >>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>> the next >>> five years." >>> >>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >>> to win >>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>> >>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>> liabilities >>> of about $129.5 million. >>> >>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>> developing a >>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>> pipeline near >>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>> on to >>> Bradwood Landing. >>> >>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>> on the >>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>> natural gas as >>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >>> forward >>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>> >>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>> >>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >>> LLC, >>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>> Port LLC as >>> subsidiaries. >>> >>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:38:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4BE2F070.00000B.00784 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you Jim, and good morning all. Because I wasn't looking in the right place, a whispered rumor of a pipeline around here did not take shape until I heard about it in greater detail on this list. On the Internet, as no surprise, there were a lot of pro and con comments about it. With all of that, the nagging question in mind was, what is in it for Oregon? I had to laugh as you described the grass roots movement, the meetings, the confrontations, and the very scope of people in diverse groups all working together to a common end to protect Oregon. I had to laugh because had the Tea Party been around when this effort was started, they would have added their voices and supported it too. In closing I commend your efforts, and everyone else who supported it. Donkelly, member of Coffee and Tea Parties. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/6703f506/attachment.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 **************************************** From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu May 6 10:03:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:03:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Evolution References: <7EF6E023-53E1-4D0E-9FD0-1BD37C582FD9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE2F645.000010.00784@DON-B2514E06367> I don't think even Johnnie Appleseed planted that many trees. Another controversy is heating up, and so far it is touted as being Net Neutrality. Discussion link: FCC Pushing Anew for "Net Neutrality" (hostile government takeover of Internet) Who or what would benefit by a net takeover by government, EXCEPT during a real national emergency in an effort to help Americans in eminent danger? Don David On May 5, 2010, at 10:00 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > Interesting! > http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th > Ed > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/bb397836/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu May 6 10:13:29 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:13:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <02d801caed3f$74ff2040$5efd60c0$@com> > From: Steele, Mike > > I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning. > Clueless. For those interested in that editorial, I believe this is the one Mike is referring to. http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/05/endless_process_defeats_ lng.html Jeff From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu May 6 10:15:30 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Poetry Reading, 5/13, 9:30 AM, Pacific U In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <743723.47592.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Date:? Thurs. May 13, 2010 Time:? 9:30 to 11:15 am Place:? Taylor Auditorium, 2nd Floor Marsh Hall (for map www.pacificu.edu) The event is free and open to the public Poetry Reading to Mark Completion Ceremony for Center for Gender Equity/Adelante Mujeres Bridge Program Students from the CGE Adelante Mujeres Bridge Program will read from their original works of poetry.? The event is a celebration to recognize the achievement of the women who have been taking classes at Pacific under the direction of Dr. Nancy Christoph. Adelante Mujeres (Women Rising) is a community-based organization located in Forest Grove and designed to educate and train low-income Latina women in the Cornelius and Forest Grove areas to the GED level.? The Bridge Program is a collaboration among Adelante Mujeres, Pacific?s Center for Gender Equity and the English Language Institute.? The Bridge Program provides classes especially designed for the students to give them a sense of the material and pacing of college courses with the goal that some of the students may matriculate into college.? Additionally, the Bridge Program provides a model of college attendance for the women?s children. Date:? Thurs. May 13, 2010 Time:? 9:30 to 11:15 am Place:? Taylor Auditorium, 2nd Floor Marsh Hall (for map www.pacificu.edu) The event is free and open to the public For more information contact: Dr. Martha Rampton (ramptonm at pacificu.edu) ? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu May 6 10:17:01 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:17:01 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1@JeffVAIO> <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572@DON-B2514E06367> <7DEEB05F-C8C4-4117-BC8A-59EC6BFA0565@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE2F98A.00001B.00784@DON-B2514E06367> Just asking David, but worthy to consider, based on recent government bailouts. If these companies file bankruptcy, but then the government feels sorry for them and gives them a billion dollar bailout, small contractors might recover their financial loss, but then we the tax payers would hold the paper. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 5/6/2010 1:46:57 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance At a time like this, it may seem like a silly question, but if they have liabilities of 130 million dollars, and they cannot pay their bills, who is taking the loss? Remember the issue with limited corporate liability rules, the owners of the LLC took a calculated gamble. They ran up bills of 130 million dollars with the expectation that an approved LNG project would be salable for big bucks as soon as it was granted. They had bills, who is holding the worthless paper? Is it small time contractors? Or some big time venture capitalist? Or,... since one source of natural gas is GASPROM of Russia, is the money owed to them? Remember how they treated Europe when politics got mixed up with oil and gas deliveries. Was there a connection here to get some Russian control over American energy infrastructure? No smoking gun, just curiosity. David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/451d4686/attachment.gif From oldredwagon at verizon.net Thu May 6 10:44:09 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 10:44:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] James Roddey, the Earth Science guy In-Reply-To: <981190.35428.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <981190.35428.qm@web55608.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36BB025A84CE49B79E95D836A04FE1BC@JeffVAIO> Thanks Alana! I really appreciate the effort to bring in these wonderful speakers. I think James Roddy would be pretty popular because a massive earthquake could affect everyone - you never know where you will be when it happens! Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alana Graham" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:57 AM To: Subject: [Grovenet] James Roddey, the Earth Science guy > I have passed the request to have James Roddy come out here to speak on to > the programming person at the library. If it happened it would be next > year as the current round of library programs has ended for now. Of > course, the Rogers Room at the library is always available ($10.00 an > hours to rent) if anyone out there wants to arrange a program separate > from what the library itself arranges..... > > Alana > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, grovenet-request at rdrop.com > wrote: > > > From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com > Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:38 AM > > > Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to > grovenet at rdrop.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > grovenet-request at rdrop.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > grovenet-owner at rdrop.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? (Marian Cakarnis) > 2. Re: Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? (Leslie.Neyman) > 3. Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update (Leslie.Neyman) > 4. Re: Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update (Ed Davie) > 5. Printer to donate (Ed Davie) > 6. Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jeff Howden) > 7. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Katie Allnutt) > 8. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jeff Howden) > 9. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) > 10. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Marian Cakarnis) > 11. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) > 12. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) > 13. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jim Zaleski) > 14. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (David Morelli) > 15. Re: Evolution (David Morelli) > 16. Summer Series : Forest Grove Music in the Park. (Holly Di) > 17. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Katie Allnutt) > 18. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) > 19. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Jim Zaleski) > 20. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Steele, Mike) > 21. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (Walt Wentz) > 22. Re: Goodbye & Good Riddance (donkelly) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:33:47 -0700 > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <57D1C8F8E8E0416180999C48CDBFA0B9 at JeffVAIO> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction > zone. > http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS > > Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information > Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove? It sounds like he would > be a great storyteller to have. Could this be one of the library events, > similar to the archeologist who was here recently? > > And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort > to attend! > > Just wondering.... > Marian > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:13:37 -0700 > From: "Leslie.Neyman" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Message-ID: <0471A9DDC5A9474884C46C9761469BF7 at Office> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Great article, Marian. Thanks for the link. We definitely need to prepare. > > Leslie > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Marian Cakarnis > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 1:34 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Who organizes speakers in Forest Grove? > > I just came across this article while researching the Cascadia Subduction > zone. > http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS > > Wouldn't it be cool to have James Roddey, the Earth Sciences Information > Officer, come and do a talk here in Forest Grove? It sounds like he would > be a great storyteller to have. Could this be one of the library events, > similar to the archeologist who was here recently? > > And no, I don't have time to organize this - but I would make every effort > to attend! > > Just wondering.... > Marian > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:22:35 -0700 > From: "Leslie.Neyman" > Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp > Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a > funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually > worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and > tsunamis. > Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your > days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). > We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view > and > excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one > place. > > Thanks again for all of your suggestions, > > Leslie > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:41:54 -0700 > From: "Ed Davie" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <26DFEF655A5C448BBC20BA894254B418 at EdDaviePC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I would certainly agree on Pirate's Cove restaurant! One of my favorites. > Great Oyster stew! > Ed > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Leslie.Neyman > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:22 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: [Grovenet] Anniversary Getaway Ideas Update > > > I just wanted to thank Mike Steele for the recommendation of Happy Camp > Hideaway at Netarts. What a great, out-of-the-way location. We stayed in a > funky old cabin with a hand-crank phonograph and records that actually > worked! So relaxing-as long as you don't think of earthquakes and > tsunamis. > Or at the least you have to decide that it's not a bad place to end your > days if the earthquake does hit while you're there ;-). > We also recommend Pirate's Cove restaurant in Garibaldi. Fantastic view > and > excellent food, two attributes that don't often come together in one > place. > > Thanks again for all of your suggestions, > > Leslie > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:49:00 -0700 > From: "Ed Davie" > Subject: [Grovenet] Printer to donate > To: "Grovenet F.G." > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi all, > I have a large format, black & white, hp LaserJet 5100, available to > donate to a deserving organization. > Email me off site at edavie at verizon.net. > Thanks, > Ed > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:26:44 -0700 > From: Jeff Howden > Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Message-ID: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:35:48 -0700 > From: Katie Allnutt > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list > > Message-ID: <9B3EC8E4-00B4-4C7A-9B54-A8DE032B6D9E at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" > > Katie > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000 >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >> filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >> comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >> liquefied natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >> Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >> regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >> under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >> activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >> demand for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >> in Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >> country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >> fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >> and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >> the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >> to win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >> developing a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >> pipeline near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >> on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >> on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >> natural gas as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >> LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >> Port LLC as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:40:03 -0700 > From: Jeff Howden > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Message-ID: <024701caeccd$d23dd980$76b98c80$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Katie, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Katie Allnutt [mailto:allnutt at verizon.net] >> >> Just like the Terminator I have a feeling that 'They'll be Baaaack" >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I wouldn't be so sure. Someone else might go after the same proposal, but > not NorthernStar. Their balance sheet is horrific. > > Assets: $165,930 > Liabilities: about $129.5 million > > Ouch! > > Jeff > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:41:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Message-ID: <4BE23A7E.000025.02572 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Jeeze folks, there goes part of my retirement. > > But the best upside is less environmental issues to worry about locally. > > They can fly their gas offshore if they want to sell it bad enough. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jeff Howden > Date: 5/5/2010 8:26:59 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > Jeff > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > bwD9FH0N000 > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed > for liquidation. > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood Landing > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > abandoned > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied > natural > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said increased > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand > for > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in > Oregon > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next > five years." > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to win > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and liabilities > of about $129.5 million. > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing > a > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline near > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to > Bradwood Landing. > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas > as > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > forward > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC > as > subsidiaries. > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 46417 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/d0556668/attachment-0001.gif > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:48:50 -0700 > From: "Marian Cakarnis" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: , "Forest Grove local interests list" > > Message-ID: <0E5E1A9AC3294C43B93D00B0B80732E1 at JeffVAIO> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > This was an interesting paragraph: > "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > liabilities > of about $129.5 million." > > Did I read that correctly? > > I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for > bankruptcy. Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that > private property and then bilked all the contractors? > > And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have > provided hundreds of jobs..... not sure how they would have paid for > them.... > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jeff Howden" > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000 >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >> natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand >> for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in >> Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to >> win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing >> a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline >> near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas >> as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC >> as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:50:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <4BE23C8B.00002A.02572 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other > international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint > projects. > 130 million is chicken feed to them. > > Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had > any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. > > Goode goode > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Marian Cakarnis > Date: 5/5/2010 8:44:45 PM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > > This was an interesting paragraph: > "NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > liabilities > of about $129.5 million." > > Did I read that correctly? > > I'd say it's a good thing they didn't make more progress before filing for > bankruptcy. Can you imagine if they had gone thru and torn up all that > private property and then bilked all the contractors? > > And I heard people on the news complaining about how they would have > provided hundreds of jobs..... not sure how they would have paid for > them.... > > Marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Jeff Howden" > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:26 PM > To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" > Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> http://www.google > com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000 >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >> natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand >> for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in >> Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to >> win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing >> a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline >> near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas >> as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC >> as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 46417 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100505/796dc75e/attachment-0001.gif > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:12:04 -0700 > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list > > Message-ID: <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C at teleport.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > and dangerous project. > WW > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000 >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >> filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >> comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >> liquefied natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >> Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >> regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >> under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >> activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >> demand for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >> in Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >> country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >> fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >> and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >> the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >> to win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >> developing a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >> pipeline near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >> on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >> on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >> natural gas as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >> LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >> Port LLC as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 00:41:38 -0700 > From: Jim Zaleski > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Jeff, > > As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines > (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and drawn out > battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were not > alone, > hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across > Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar pipeline. > When > the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal > politicians > fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, we are > diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe Northerstar > picked > Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times to > build > LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they thought that > pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River and a 220 > mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. They were > wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. > > While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate juggernauts > every > step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and > vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process that > pose > potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. > > Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't tell you > the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small > fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly > meetings. > But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We have > our > heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the > corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of how an > organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the cause is > right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and > distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact > (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous and > irreversible. > > The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were > withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that they had > spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of that > money > was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political > maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of political > improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of many of > us, > there was many more activities between the corporations, politicians and > regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money in the > pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some politicians move > to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose land would > be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that were > the > victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us > trouble > makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of > intimidation > of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but this is > not > the place to list them here. > > And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and protest. > We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, and used > every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should be > proud > of this example of democracy in action. > > And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included > people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and home > town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, > environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, organizations > and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a > quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. > > There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that we > killed > a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for Oregonians, > but > they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the > disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing and > distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. > > Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after learning > the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in diameter and > running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes > across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first > anti-LNG > proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this proclamation > became > the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline routes. You > should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand and > often > led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance organizations > followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled > successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were incredibly > resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. > > You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects you, or > why > you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of keeping > Oregon > green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative solutions to > complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is > paramount > to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to giants of > the > oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and what we > stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint > projects > whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of profit. > > We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not lay > down > our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. > > jimz > > PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some informative > links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> bwD9FH0N000 >> >> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> >> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> >> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has filed >> for liquidation. >> >> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> >> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not comment on >> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> Landing >> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> >> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> abandoned >> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >> natural >> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the Federal >> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state regulators >> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> >> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., under >> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of activity. >> >> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> increased >> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the demand >> for >> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities in >> Oregon >> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> >> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this country >> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to fruition," he >> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices and the >> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over the next >> five years." >> >> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying to >> win >> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> >> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> liabilities >> of about $129.5 million. >> >> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been developing >> a >> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest pipeline >> near >> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and on to >> Bradwood Landing. >> >> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work on the >> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic natural gas >> as >> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> forward >> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> >> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> >> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. LLC, >> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater Port LLC >> as >> subsidiaries. >> >> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:46:09 -0700 > From: David Morelli > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests > list > Message-ID: <7DEEB05F-C8C4-4117-BC8A-59EC6BFA0565 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > At a time like this, it may seem like a silly question, but if they have > liabilities of 130 million dollars, and they cannot pay their bills, who > is taking the loss? > > Remember the issue with limited corporate liability rules, the owners of > the LLC took a calculated gamble. They ran up bills of 130 million > dollars with the expectation that an approved LNG project would be salable > for big bucks as soon as it was granted. They had bills, who is holding > the worthless paper? > > Is it small time contractors? Or some big time venture capitalist? > > Or,... since one source of natural gas is GASPROM of Russia, is the money > owed to them? Remember how they treated Europe when politics got mixed up > with oil and gas deliveries. Was there a connection here to get some > Russian control over American energy infrastructure? No smoking gun, just > curiosity. > > David > > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:50 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> But it seems like companies like that are loosely associated with other >> international companies, and all have deepless pockets to do joint >> projects. >> 130 million is chicken feed to them. >> >> Evidently in this case they were unable to bribe anyone in Oregon who had >> any juice with regulators and or those in Oregon who approve permits. >> >> Goode goode >> >> Don > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 01:49:16 -0700 > From: David Morelli > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Evolution > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: <7EF6E023-53E1-4D0E-9FD0-1BD37C582FD9 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Interesting, but he claimed to have planted a million trees by himself. > He must be a lot older than he looks. > > David > > On May 5, 2010, at 10:00 AM, Ed Davie wrote: > >> Interesting! >> http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/darwin-got-it-going-on/?th&emc=th >> Ed >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:13:40 -0700 > From: Holly Di > Subject: [Grovenet] Summer Series : Forest Grove Music in the Park. > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Looking for something to do thats Local, Fun and supporting the schools? > > > It > will be the 3rd Sunday, June 20, July 18, August 15 and September 19. I > have one last group to get conformation and I will head to the print > shop at Pacific probably Monday. Watch for posters around town late > next week. > 1:00 Open Mic -early sign-ups will be on the group > website and I will close early sign-up Sunday Morning before I head to > the park. > 2:00 Featured Musicians > 3:30 JamAll volunteer group of musicians, performers and community > members, to > help keep the arts alive in Forest Grove School District. We gave $900 > to the district last year which gave opportunities to some of our > students to go to state to perform. > > Face book group to keep up to date ask questions about this summers > events. > > > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105321679512251#!/group.php?gid=105321679512251 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 08:34:25 -0700 > From: Katie Allnutt > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I see this effort as the wave of the future. As corporations grow in > size and power and political influence above their incredible > influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood > to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from > being steam rolled in every arena. > > This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of > people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people > across ideological lines to work together too. > > Katie > > On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The Pipelines >> (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and >> drawn out >> battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were >> not alone, >> hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations across >> Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar >> pipeline. When >> the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal >> politicians >> fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, >> we are >> diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe >> Northerstar picked >> Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times >> to build >> LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they >> thought that >> pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River >> and a 220 >> mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. >> They were >> wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. >> >> While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate >> juggernauts every >> step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious and >> vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process >> that pose >> potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. >> >> Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't >> tell you >> the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with small >> fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly >> meetings. >> But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We >> have our >> heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the >> corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of >> how an >> organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the >> cause is >> right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and >> distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact >> (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous >> and >> irreversible. >> >> The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they were >> withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that >> they had >> spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of >> that money >> was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and political >> maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of >> political >> improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of >> many of us, >> there was many more activities between the corporations, >> politicians and >> regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money >> in the >> pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some >> politicians move >> to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose >> land would >> be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that >> were the >> victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us >> trouble >> makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of >> intimidation >> of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but >> this is not >> the place to list them here. >> >> And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and >> protest. >> We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, >> and used >> every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should >> be proud >> of this example of democracy in action. >> >> And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers included >> people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and >> home >> town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, >> environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, >> organizations >> and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had become a >> quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. >> >> There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that >> we killed >> a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for >> Oregonians, but >> they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne the >> disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing >> and >> distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. >> >> Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after >> learning >> the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in >> diameter and >> running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning routes >> across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first >> anti-LNG >> proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this >> proclamation became >> the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline >> routes. You >> should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand >> and often >> led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance >> organizations >> followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled >> successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were >> incredibly >> resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. >> >> You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects >> you, or why >> you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of >> keeping Oregon >> green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative >> solutions to >> complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is >> paramount >> to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to >> giants of the >> oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and >> what we >> stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint >> projects >> whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of >> profit. >> >> We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not >> lay down >> our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. >> >> jimz >> >> PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some >> informative >> links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden >> wrote: >> >>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>> bwD9FH0N000>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >>> >>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>> >>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>> >>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River >>> has filed >>> for liquidation. >>> >>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>> Chapter 7 >>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>> >>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>> comment on >>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>> Landing >>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>> >>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>> abandoned >>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >>> natural >>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>> Federal >>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>> regulators >>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>> >>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, >>> Calif., under >>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>> activity. >>> >>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>> increased >>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>> demand >>> for >>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>> in Oregon >>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>> >>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>> country >>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>> fruition," he >>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>> and the >>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>> the next >>> five years." >>> >>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been >>> trying to win >>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>> >>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>> liabilities >>> of about $129.5 million. >>> >>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>> developing a >>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>> pipeline near >>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>> on to >>> Bradwood Landing. >>> >>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>> on the >>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>> natural gas >>> as >>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only >>> go forward >>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>> >>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>> >>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline >>> Co. LLC, >>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>> Port LLC >>> as >>> subsidiaries. >>> >>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:02:28 -0700 > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Yes, crossing ideological lines will be the major challenge. > Being of a low, suspicious mind myself, I believe that part of the > reason for the increasing coarsening and polarization of public > debate... liberals vs. conservatives, pro-environment vs. environment > debunkers, freethinkers vs. fundamentalists, progressives vs. Tea > Partiers, etc. etc., is that this polarization is being deliberately > fostered by politicians and yell-radio hosts, in cahoots with Big > Business, so as to fragment and render powerless the general public. > Nothing else would seem to completely explain the hysteria (and > money) behind the climate-change denial crowd or the Obamaphobes, for > instance. > So, in simple self-defense, those of us who can't live in fenced > wilderness enclaves or private islands had better learn to recognize > a manufactured conflict when we see one, and sidestep it to work > together on things that really matter... such as surviving in an > environment that hasn't been ruined and poisoned in Big Business' > remorseless pursuit of ever bigger profits. > WW > > On May 6, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> I see this effort as the wave of the future. As corporations grow in >> size and power and political influence above their incredible >> influence now (with the Roberts/Alito court handing over personhood >> to corporations), the people will have to work harder to keep from >> being steam rolled in every arena. >> >> This was a long hard battle as you describe and it took a lot of >> people a lot of time and work. The next battle will take people >> across ideological lines to work together too. >> >> Katie >> >> On May 6, 2010, at 12:41 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: >> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> As an active member of the Forest Grove Citizens Against The >>> Pipelines >>> (fgocap) for the past 3 years, I can tell you it was a long and >>> drawn out >>> battle. It was David against Goliath, and David won. And we were >>> not alone, >>> hundreds, perhaps thousands of other citizens and Organizations >>> across >>> Oregon joined forces against Bradwood Landing and the Palomar >>> pipeline. When >>> the facts became known, many local, regional, state and federal >>> politicians >>> fell in line and joined forces with us (tho not all). We are many, >>> we are >>> diverse, and we are smart and tenacious. I truly believe >>> Northerstar picked >>> Oregon because they underestimated us. They had tried several times >>> to build >>> LNG import facilities in California and failed. I think they >>> thought that >>> pushing through a LNG regasification plant on the Columbia River >>> and a 220 >>> mile pipeline through the heart of rural Oregon would be a snap. >>> They were >>> wrong. The whole project was wrong for Oregon from the get-go. >>> >>> While those of us across Oregon who fought these corporate >>> juggernauts every >>> step of the way are celebrating, we have reason to remain cautious >>> and >>> vigilant. There are two more proposals still in the review process >>> that pose >>> potential threats in the same manner as did Northern Star. >>> >>> Being part of the LNG resistance has been an eye-opener. I can't >>> tell you >>> the many up and downs we experienced battling big oil money with >>> small >>> fundraisers and stuffing dollars into a collection jar at monthly >>> meetings. >>> But there were many dedicated and resourceful people who helped. We >>> have our >>> heroes, people who worked tirelessly and didn't let anything the >>> corporations threw at us go unanswered. It is a success story of >>> how an >>> organized group of citizens can win against the big boys if the >>> cause is >>> right. And we were on the right side of this issue. LNG import and >>> distribution was just plain bad for Oregon. The environmental impact >>> (although, downplayed by the corporations) would have been enormous >>> and >>> irreversible. >>> >>> The Northerstar company admitted in their announcement (that they >>> were >>> withdrawing their pursuit of a facility at Bradwood Landing) that >>> they had >>> spent $100 million dollars in preparing for the project. Much of >>> that money >>> was spent in environmental studies, engineering designs, and >>> political >>> maneuvering. While there are a few well documented instances of >>> political >>> improprieties throughout the process, from the point of view of >>> many of us, >>> there was many more activities between the corporations, >>> politicians and >>> regulators that were suspect to say the least. With so much money >>> in the >>> pipeline (pun intended) it was not surprising to see some >>> politicians move >>> to the dark side. And all the while it was the landowners whose >>> land would >>> be lost to these companies under the threat of eminent domain, that >>> were the >>> victims. We were a constant thorn in their sides and they called us >>> trouble >>> makers and ill-informed malcontents. There are many stories of >>> intimidation >>> of landowners who refused to cooperate with the developers, but >>> this is not >>> the place to list them here. >>> >>> And we were good citizens exercising our right to free speech and >>> protest. >>> We attended rallies, we testified whenever and wherever we could, >>> and used >>> every legal avenue at our disposal to topple this giant. You should >>> be proud >>> of this example of democracy in action. >>> >>> And you could not call this a partisan issue, for our numbers >>> included >>> people of every political persuasion, age, gender, occupation, and >>> home >>> town. Students, doctors, attorneys, farmers, foresters, fisherman, >>> environmentalists, Indian tribesmen, fisheries, businessmen, >>> organizations >>> and an uncommon force of just plain ordinary citizens. We had >>> become a >>> quintessential example of citizen activism. And it worked. >>> >>> There are many, of course, who will say we had it all wrong, that >>> we killed >>> a project that would have reaped great economic rewards for >>> Oregonians, but >>> they would be wrong. In the final analysis Oregon would have borne >>> the >>> disastrous environmental impact of a massive natural gas processing >>> and >>> distribution system, without the economic rewards that were promised. >>> >>> Did you know that the Forest Grove Mayor and City Council, after >>> learning >>> the facts behind plans that two competing pipelines (42" in >>> diameter and >>> running billions of cubic feet a day at 1500 psi) were planning >>> routes >>> across farmland not more than a mile west of town, wrote the first >>> anti-LNG >>> proclamations in Oregon? And did you also know that this >>> proclamation became >>> the prototype for many other cities located along the pipeline >>> routes. You >>> should feel proud that the Forest Grove OCAP was a real firebrand >>> and often >>> led the charge, while the rest of the pipeline resistance >>> organizations >>> followed. But we were not the only ones, folks in Astoria had battled >>> successfully for over 6 years. They never gave up. They were >>> incredibly >>> resilient. They are to be commended for their hard earned victory. >>> >>> You may still be shaking your head now, unclear how this affects >>> you, or why >>> you should even care. Well, Oregon's environmental record of >>> keeping Oregon >>> green and being on the forefront of innovative and creative >>> solutions to >>> complex environmental issues was at stake. Keeping Oregon green is >>> paramount >>> to the continued livability of this great state. Giving in to >>> giants of the >>> oil industry would have had a profound impact on who we are and >>> what we >>> stand for. Oregon should not be dirtied with high carbon-footprint >>> projects >>> whose sole purpose is to exploit our great state for the sake of >>> profit. >>> >>> We have won an important battle, but the war rages on. We will not >>> lay down >>> our principles for short term gain. Oregon is better than that. >>> >>> jimz >>> >>> PS: If there is interest on the list I will gladly supply some >>> informative >>> links for those who wish to delve deeper into this complex issue. >>> >>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>>> bwD9FH0N000>>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw%0AbwD9FH0N000> >>>> >>>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>>> >>>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>>> >>>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development >>>> of a >>>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River >>>> has filed >>>> for liquidation. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>>> Chapter 7 >>>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>>> >>>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>>> comment on >>>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>>> Landing >>>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>>> >>>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>>> abandoned >>>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive liquefied >>>> natural >>>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>>> Federal >>>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>>> regulators >>>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>>> >>>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, >>>> Calif., under >>>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>>> activity. >>>> >>>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>>> increased >>>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>>> demand >>>> for >>>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>>> in Oregon >>>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>>> >>>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>>> country >>>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>>> fruition," he >>>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>>> and the >>>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>>> the next >>>> five years." >>>> >>>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been >>>> trying to win >>>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>>> liabilities >>>> of about $129.5 million. >>>> >>>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>>> developing a >>>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>>> pipeline near >>>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>>> on to >>>> Bradwood Landing. >>>> >>>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>>> on the >>>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>>> natural gas >>>> as >>>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only >>>> go forward >>>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>>> >>>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline >>>> Co. LLC, >>>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>>> Port LLC >>>> as >>>> subsidiaries. >>>> >>>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:11:57 -0700 > From: Jim Zaleski > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Walt, > > Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous > battle. > Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and > courage > of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, > the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected > the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog > groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal > regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory > Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal > regulatory > authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what > energy > resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few > trump cards to stop them). > > For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing > pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run > parallel > lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles > apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, > they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" > environmental > impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval > based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to > determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the > process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other > environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even > this > last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big > Oil. > > It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were > holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, > including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual > proof > in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some > officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid > lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the > system, > you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. > > So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put > that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The > investment > speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been > breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an > iceberg called Oregon Activism. > > Be proud. > > jimz > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the >> thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic >> calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all >> the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive >> and dangerous project. >> WW >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> >> > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > >> > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> > bwD9FH0N000 >> > >> > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> > >> > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> > >> > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >> > filed >> > for liquidation. >> > >> > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> > >> > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >> > comment on >> > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> > Landing >> > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> > >> > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> > abandoned >> > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >> > liquefied natural >> > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >> > Federal >> > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >> > regulators >> > over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> > >> > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >> > under >> > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >> > activity. >> > >> > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> > increased >> > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >> > demand for >> > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >> > in Oregon >> > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> > >> > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >> > country >> > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >> > fruition," he >> > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >> > and the >> > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >> > the next >> > five years." >> > >> > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >> > to win >> > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> > >> > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> > liabilities >> > of about $129.5 million. >> > >> > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >> > developing a >> > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >> > pipeline near >> > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >> > on to >> > Bradwood Landing. >> > >> > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >> > on the >> > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >> > natural gas as >> > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> > forward >> > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> > >> > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> > >> > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >> > LLC, >> > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >> > Port LLC as >> > subsidiaries. >> > >> > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:25:04 -0700 > From: "Steele, Mike" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: > <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF at everest.ad.pacificu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Jim...we are all indebted to you and your co-workers for this amazing > result. Please accept my personal thanks. > > I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning. Clueless. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Zaleski > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:12 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > > Walt, > > Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous > battle. > Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and > courage > of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, > the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected > the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog > groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal > regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory > Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal > regulatory > authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what > energy > resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few > trump cards to stop them). > > For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing > pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run > parallel > lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles > apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, > they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" > environmental > impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval > based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to > determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the > process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other > environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even > this > last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big > Oil. > > It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were > holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, > including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual > proof > in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some > officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid > lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the > system, > you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. > > So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put > that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The > investment > speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been > breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an > iceberg called Oregon Activism. > > Be proud. > > jimz > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the >> thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic >> calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all >> the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive >> and dangerous project. >> WW >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >> >> > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > >> > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >> > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >> > bwD9FH0N000 >> > >> > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >> > >> > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >> > >> > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a >> > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >> > filed >> > for liquidation. >> > >> > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 >> > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >> > >> > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >> > comment on >> > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >> > Landing >> > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >> > >> > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >> > abandoned >> > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >> > liquefied natural >> > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >> > Federal >> > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >> > regulators >> > over zoning and salmon protection issues. >> > >> > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >> > under >> > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >> > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >> > activity. >> > >> > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >> > increased >> > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >> > demand for >> > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >> > in Oregon >> > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >> > >> > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >> > country >> > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >> > fruition," he >> > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >> > and the >> > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >> > the next >> > five years." >> > >> > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >> > to win >> > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >> > >> > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >> > liabilities >> > of about $129.5 million. >> > >> > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >> > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >> > developing a >> > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >> > pipeline near >> > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >> > on to >> > Bradwood Landing. >> > >> > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >> > on the >> > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >> > natural gas as >> > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >> > forward >> > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >> > >> > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >> > >> > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >> > LLC, >> > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >> > Port LLC as >> > subsidiaries. >> > >> > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:28:20 -0700 > From: Walt Wentz > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Message-ID: <6670D713-60C6-4807-ADF0-0CC2E1869CBE at teleport.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > True enough, Jim-- the united opposition of so many people must have > had some influence on the financiers, while local politicians > realized they could doom their future careers by rolling over for Big > Oil. And the oil rig disaster off Louisiana might have been the last > nail in the coffin. > The rationale the market analysts put forward, of course, is that > natural gas supplies are high and prices stagnant, therefore the > project was "postponed" as a bad investment. Maybe so, maybe no. But > the relentless pursuit of profits by the "Rape, Ruin & Run" crowd > will continue for the foreseeable future, so hopefully we can ignore > divisive distractions to stay united in defense of the place we live. > WW > On May 6, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Walt, >> >> Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous >> battle. >> Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence >> and courage >> of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout >> Oregon, >> the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully >> expected >> the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen >> watchdog >> groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and >> federal >> regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory >> Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal >> regulatory >> authority took much of the power of individual states to decide >> what energy >> resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held >> very few >> trump cards to stop them). >> >> For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing >> pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run >> parallel >> lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than >> a miles >> apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this >> process, >> they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" >> environmental >> impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving >> approval >> based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to >> determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say >> in the >> process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other >> environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But >> even this >> last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying >> by Big >> Oil. >> >> It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were >> holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable >> investment, >> including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no >> actual proof >> in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of >> some >> officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of >> high paid >> lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent >> the system, >> you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. >> >> So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, >> I put >> that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The >> investment >> speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been >> breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran >> into an >> iceberg called Oregon Activism. >> >> Be proud. >> >> jimz >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the >>> thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic >>> calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all >>> the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive >>> and dangerous project. >>> WW >>> >>> On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: >>> >>>> I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ >>>> ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw >>>> bwD9FH0N000 >>>> >>>> Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation >>>> >>>> By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago >>>> >>>> GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development >>>> of a >>>> liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has >>>> filed >>>> for liquidation. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for >>>> Chapter 7 >>>> bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. >>>> >>>> Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not >>>> comment on >>>> the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood >>>> Landing >>>> project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. >>>> >>>> The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an >>>> abandoned >>>> lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive >>>> liquefied natural >>>> gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the >>>> Federal >>>> Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state >>>> regulators >>>> over zoning and salmon protection issues. >>>> >>>> The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., >>>> under >>>> the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated >>>> NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of >>>> activity. >>>> >>>> Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said >>>> increased >>>> domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the >>>> demand for >>>> LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities >>>> in Oregon >>>> would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. >>>> >>>> "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this >>>> country >>>> would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to >>>> fruition," he >>>> said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices >>>> and the >>>> rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over >>>> the next >>>> five years." >>>> >>>> Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying >>>> to win >>>> permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and >>>> liabilities >>>> of about $129.5 million. >>>> >>>> Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a >>>> partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been >>>> developing a >>>> 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest >>>> pipeline near >>>> Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and >>>> on to >>>> Bradwood Landing. >>>> >>>> NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work >>>> on the >>>> eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic >>>> natural gas as >>>> demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go >>>> forward >>>> with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. >>>> >>>> Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. >>>> >>>> NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. >>>> LLC, >>>> Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater >>>> Port LLC as >>>> subsidiaries. >>>> >>>> Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:38:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) > From: "donkelly" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Message-ID: <4BE2F070.00000B.00784 at DON-B2514E06367> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you Jim, and good morning all. > > Because I wasn't looking in the right place, a whispered rumor of a > pipeline > around here did not take shape until I heard about it in greater detail on > this list. > > On the Internet, as no surprise, there were a lot of pro and con comments > about it. > > With all of that, the nagging question in mind was, what is in it for > Oregon? > > I had to laugh as you described the grass roots movement, the meetings, > the > confrontations, and the very scope of people in diverse groups all working > together to a common end to protect Oregon. > > I had to laugh because had the Tea Party been around when this effort was > started, they would have added their voices and supported it too. > > In closing I commend your efforts, and everyone else who supported it. > > Donkelly, member of Coffee and Tea Parties. > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/gif > Size: 46417 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/6703f506/attachment.gif > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 66, Issue 11 > **************************************** > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu May 6 10:43:28 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:43:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed Message-ID: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> Students were told at a school in California that they couldn't wear clothing displaying an American flag yesterday, May 5, for fear it could cause unrest with other students that were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Personally, I find this offensive. I'm waiting for the conservative media (and others) to try to spin this to be somehow related to Obama, our children being subverted, etc. However, the simple truth is this is a case of a school official with too much power violating the rights of students. I hope the ACLU takes the school district to court over it. For those students who found the wearing of a flag offensive on "their holiday", I suggest they stop and seriously rethink what country they're in and whether or not their allegiance is correctly placed. Perhaps if they find something as simple as wearing our nation's flag to be offensive, they ought to move. Jeff http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca / Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees By George Kiriyama NBCBayArea.com On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population. Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office. "They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today." The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus. "They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said. The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense." "I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality." But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday. "I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July." As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.' "I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American." The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school do not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement: The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions. The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt. From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu May 6 10:49:24 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:49:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: Mike, While I gave time, effort, support and money to this cause, I was merely a foot soldier. There were others who rose up and became leaders, and tirelessly pursued the invaders (I'm reminded of the French resistance fighters during WW II). It was an example of ordinary folks rising to the occasion with exceptional (and often untried,) leadership abilities. It is an example of the magnificence of the human spirit adapting to adversity. There is a long list of true heroes in this battle, without which we could not have achieved the victory we now enjoy. My hat is off to them, and as we celebrate our success, I'm sure these extraordinary individuals will be recognized and rewarded, at the very least, with our utmost respect and gratitude. jimz PS: As I mentioned in my initial post, this war is not over. There are still two more companies vying for rights to do the same thing that Northernstar attempted. Our groups will not be disbanding anytime soon. As we had speculated all along, the LNG import terminal projects had an underlying objective: EXPORT. These investors knew all along that importation was not the ultimate goal. They knew that new drilling techniques of extracting gas deposits trapped in oil shale would turn the US from an import to an export country. When domestic natural gas was in shorter supply, they put the import projects on the fast track, knowing all along that major changes in supply were coming. Now, oil industry reports project that new drilling sites from Oklahoma to Pennsylvania will eventually produce enough natural gas to supply the US for the next hundred years! And for the last 6 years Oregonians had fought against the falsehoods spread by oil and gas speculators (including our own NW Natural) that supplies were woefully inadequate to sustain current and emerging demands. So it was a ruse, a bait and switch master plan to fool the public. Thank goodness we saw through it. To reinforce this thought, I give you the following link to a Bloomberg article about US efforts to sell OUR natural gas to China. Truly seems like Big Oil has been bamboozling the American public into believing in a shortage where none actually existed. Not surprising. Never trust big money in any of it's devious disguises. Where profit is God, even deceit is an act of devotion. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-28/u-s-may-sell-lng-to-china-on-surplus-standard-chartered-says.html On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Jim...we are all indebted to you and your co-workers for this amazing > result. Please accept my personal thanks. > > I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning. Clueless. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Zaleski > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:12 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance > > Walt, > > Don't underestimate the power of "the little people" in a righteous battle. > Had it not been for the spunk, tenacity,resilience, intelligence and > courage > of so many individuals and organized groups of citizens throughout Oregon, > the project would have been a done deal by now. Northerstar fully expected > the project to be operational by 2007. Keen over-site by citizen watchdog > groups prevented them from riding rough shod over both state and federal > regulatory bodies. Our experience with the Federal Energy Regulatory > Commission (FERC) was a frustrating one. When changes in federal regulatory > authority took much of the power of individual states to decide what energy > resources could operate within their jurisdictions, states held very few > trump cards to stop them). > > For example: FERC gave a number of approvals to the "two" competing > pipelines projects (Northerstar and NW Natural) who planned to run parallel > lines through Oregon (which were, in most instances were less than a miles > apart, and in some cases, even crossed over each other). In this process, > they failed (and actually refused) to consider the "combined" environmental > impact of these competing projects, saying the they were giving approval > based upon individual applications, and would allow "market forces" to > determine which project would win out. Oregon had little or no say in the > process, except retaining rights to approve clean water, air and other > environmental/land use and other natural resource use permits. But even > this > last gasp modicum of control was jeapordized by corporate lobbying by Big > Oil. > > It doesn't take much to conclude that the investment speculators were > holding nothing back in pursuit of a return on their sizable investment, > including political hanky-panky with a number of officials (no actual proof > in most instances, but strong suspicions based upon the conduct of some > officials). When you have to fight big money and a small army of high paid > lawyers looking for every way possible to exploit and circumvent the > system, > you have a very, very difficult fight on your hands. > > So, in answer to your question of who brought the corporation down, I put > that victory squarely in the hands of the citizens of Oregon. The > investment > speculators merely jumped ship when they realized their bow had been > breached, and their ship was going down. Northerstar simply ran into an > iceberg called Oregon Activism. > > Be proud. > > jimz > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > Sometimes the good little guys win. I am discouraged, however, by the > > thought this victory may have been due to the cheese-paring economic > > calculations of the banks, rather than the organized protests of all > > the little people who would have been impacted by this destructive > > and dangerous project. > > WW > > > > On May 5, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > > > > I wasn't at all upset to hear about the demise of NorthernStar. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ > > > ALeqM5gibv1sL76itKmT1T9Fij0xoRFw > > > bwD9FH0N000 > > > > > > Ore. LNG port developer files for liquidation > > > > > > By JEFF BARNARD (AP) - 2 hours ago > > > > > > GRANTS PASS, Ore. - The company that recently halted development of a > > > liquefied natural gas port near the mouth of the Columbia River has > > > filed > > > for liquidation. > > > > > > NorthernStar Natural Gas Inc. and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 7 > > > bankruptcy Tuesday in Houston. > > > > > > Company spokesman Joe Desmond said Wednesday that he could not > > > comment on > > > the filings, but in a statement about halting work on the Bradwood > > > Landing > > > project, NorthernStar President Paul Soanes blamed permit delays. > > > > > > The company launched the project six years ago, hoping to turn an > > > abandoned > > > lumber mill site into the first deep-water port to receive > > > liquefied natural > > > gas tankers on the West Coast. The project won approval from the > > > Federal > > > Energy Regulatory Commission but ran into problems from state > > > regulators > > > over zoning and salmon protection issues. > > > > > > The company also was working on an offshore site at Oxnard, Calif., > > > under > > > the name Clearwater Port LLC, but California recently terminated > > > NorthernStar's application for a right-of-way, citing a lack of > > > activity. > > > > > > Cameron Horowitz, an analyst at SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, said > > > increased > > > domestic supplies of natural gas have slashed prices, killing the > > > demand for > > > LNG imports. Two other companies trying to develop LNG facilities > > > in Oregon > > > would face "slim" prospects of success, he said. > > > > > > "Every year for the past five years, there's been talk that this > > > country > > > would be flooded with LNG imports, but it has never come to > > > fruition," he > > > said from Houston. "Given the outlook for U.S. natural gas prices > > > and the > > > rest of the world, I don't see it coming to fruition at all over > > > the next > > > five years." > > > > > > Horowitz said LNG facilities on the Gulf of Mexico have been trying > > > to win > > > permission to ship LNG stockpiles back overseas. > > > > > > NorthernStar's bankruptcy filing listed assets of $165,930 and > > > liabilities > > > of about $129.5 million. > > > > > > Among the creditors is Palomar Gas Transmission LLC of Portland, a > > > partnership including NW Natural of Portland. Palomar has been > > > developing a > > > 220-mile gas pipeline linking the Gas Transmission Northwest > > > pipeline near > > > Madras to the NW Natural pipeline system southeast of Portland and > > > on to > > > Bradwood Landing. > > > > > > NW Natural spokeswoman Kim Heiting said it was continuing to work > > > on the > > > eastern half of the pipeline to assure deliveries of domestic > > > natural gas as > > > demand increased for gas-powered power plants, and it would only go > > > forward > > > with the western half if an LNG site is built on the Columbia. > > > > > > Court filings say Palomar is owed $17.2 million. > > > > > > NorthernStar listed Bradwood Landing LLC, NorthernStar Pipeline Co. > > > LLC, > > > Clearwater Port Holdings LLC, NSNG Management LLC and Clearwater > > > Port LLC as > > > subsidiaries. > > > > > > Copyright C 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu May 6 11:08:34 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 11:08:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <4BE2F070.00000B.00784@DON-B2514E06367> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <4BE2F070.00000B.00784@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: While we had a number of conservative Republican supporters, I express doubt that our efforts would have been supported by the far right, especially the tea baggers. Although there are probably some issues we could agree on, I feel there are just too many left-leaning concepts in the mix to overcome far right-leaning ideologies. If I would hazard a guess, one issue we might agree on is the Feds having the authority to make major decisions for states on energy issues. Another might be the use of eminent domain to seize property from private landowners land for commercial enterprise. As this threat was used time and again to coerce property owners into cooperating with Northernstar. Those in the know, didn't budge. And when they refused to be intimidated, they slowed the process down to a crawl. These delays played in our favor, and help win the war. jimz On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:38 AM, donkelly wrote: > Thank you Jim, and good morning all. > > Because I wasn't looking in the right place, a whispered rumor of a > pipeline > around here did not take shape until I heard about it in greater detail on > this list. > > On the Internet, as no surprise, there were a lot of pro and con comments > about it. > > With all of that, the nagging question in mind was, what is in it for > Oregon? > > I had to laugh as you described the grass roots movement, the meetings, the > confrontations, and the very scope of people in diverse groups all working > together to a common end to protect Oregon. > > I had to laugh because had the Tea Party been around when this effort was > started, they would have added their voices and supported it too. > > In closing I commend your efforts, and everyone else who supported it. > > Donkelly, member of Coffee and Tea Parties. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu May 6 11:23:42 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 11:23:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Goodbye & Good Riddance In-Reply-To: <02d801caed3f$74ff2040$5efd60c0$@com> References: <024401caeccb$f5dfedd0$e19fc970$@com> <086E87F1-2F49-44B2-BEBB-1E37EEFD6C8C@teleport.com> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E14266EF@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <02d801caed3f$74ff2040$5efd60c0$@com> Message-ID: Jeff, The Oregonian editorial board has never been kind to us, and has often appeared to be getting their data from the wrong sources. The fact that they still feel the Palomar pipeline is still needed is ludicrous. Palomar and Bradwood were intimately linked, as one cannot exist without the other. I doubt that another effort to build a terminal at Bradwood will arise any time soon, if at all. And building a pipeline with no terminal to supply it is like building a bridge to nowhere. It will never happen. Hail to the people! jimz On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > > From: Steele, Mike > > > > I note the rather sour editorial in the O this morning. > > Clueless. > > For those interested in that editorial, I believe this is the one Mike is > referring to. > > > http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/05/endless_process_defeats_ > lng.html > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu May 6 11:59:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 11:59:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed References: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> Message-ID: <4BE31173.000036.00784@DON-B2514E06367> I kinda doubt that ACLU would take the school to task over that issue. It is far more likely ACLU would have taken the Hispanic view of it. But it's just a guess based on past issues, and how they were legally addressed. ACLU tend at times to take cases that give them higher exposure, and increase their financial support base. Beyond the PR thingie, no one can guess for sure what viewpoint ACLU will take. They are accused of everything under the sun. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/6/2010 10:43:42 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed Students were told at a school in California that they couldn't wear clothing displaying an American flag yesterday, May 5, for fear it could cause unrest with other students that were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Personally, I find this offensive. I'm waiting for the conservative media (and others) to try to spin this to be somehow related to Obama, our children being subverted, etc. However, the simple truth is this is a case of a school official with too much power violating the rights of students. I hope the ACLU takes the school district to court over it. For those students who found the wearing of a flag offensive on "their holiday", I suggest they stop and seriously rethink what country they're in and whether or not their allegiance is correctly placed. Perhaps if they find something as simple as wearing our nation's flag to be offensive, they ought to move. Jeff http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca / Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees By George Kiriyama NBCBayArea.com On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population. Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office. "They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today." The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus. "They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said. The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense." "I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality." But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday. "I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July." As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.' "I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American." The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school do not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement: The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions. The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100506/3374f5ae/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu May 6 12:05:16 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 12:05:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed In-Reply-To: <4BE31173.000036.00784@DON-B2514E06367> References: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> <4BE31173.000036.00784@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E15427BD@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Note: the ACLU represented American Nazis in the legal challenge in Skokie, Illinois, years ago, 1977, when the Nazis were denied a parade permit in the one US city with the highest percentage of Holocaust survivors. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:59 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed I kinda doubt that ACLU would take the school to task over that issue. It is far more likely ACLU would have taken the Hispanic view of it. But it's just a guess based on past issues, and how they were legally addressed. ACLU tend at times to take cases that give them higher exposure, and increase their financial support base. Beyond the PR thingie, no one can guess for sure what viewpoint ACLU will take. They are accused of everything under the sun. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/6/2010 10:43:42 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed Students were told at a school in California that they couldn't wear clothing displaying an American flag yesterday, May 5, for fear it could cause unrest with other students that were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Personally, I find this offensive. I'm waiting for the conservative media (and others) to try to spin this to be somehow related to Obama, our children being subverted, etc. However, the simple truth is this is a case of a school official with too much power violating the rights of students. I hope the ACLU takes the school district to court over it. For those students who found the wearing of a flag offensive on "their holiday", I suggest they stop and seriously rethink what country they're in and whether or not their allegiance is correctly placed. Perhaps if they find something as simple as wearing our nation's flag to be offensive, they ought to move. Jeff http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36981179/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca / Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees By George Kiriyama NBCBayArea.com On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population. Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office. "They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today." The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus. "They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said. The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense." "I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality." But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday. "I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July." As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.' "I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American." The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school do not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement: The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions. The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 6 21:23:38 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 21:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed In-Reply-To: <4BE31173.000036.00784@DON-B2514E06367> References: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> <4BE31173.000036.00784@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9465D25A-0B58-4A23-A64D-075183EC7966@verizon.net> Don't rule out ACLU yet. After all they supported Rush Limbaugh when his privacy was assaulted by government investigators. http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/aclu-asks-court-protect-confidentiality-rush-limbaughs-medical-records David On May 6, 2010, at 11:59 AM, donkelly wrote: > I kinda doubt that ACLU would take the school to task over that issue. > > It is far more likely ACLU would have taken the Hispanic view of it. > > But it's just a guess based on past issues, and how they were legally addressed. ACLU tend at times to take cases that give them higher exposure, and increase their financial support base. Beyond the PR thingie, no one can guess for sure what viewpoint ACLU will take. They are accused of everything under the sun. > > Don From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 6 22:17:17 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 22:17:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed In-Reply-To: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> References: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> Message-ID: <0C1D7B3F-BBFD-440D-9223-5CC29FBF2E4C@verizon.net> There are provisions in the law about making a U.S. flag in to an article of clothing. That was tested during the Vietnam War era. Otherwise, the proper and respectful display of an American flag should be protected free speech. Especially when disrespect is considered free speech. Mexican Independence Day is September 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day Cinco de Mayo celebrates the Mexican army's victory over a French invasion force in the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. After the battle, the French army did succeed in placing Maximilian as the Mexican Emperor. Louis Napoleon had hoped to use Mexico as a base to support the Confederate states in a move to establish French dominance over the Americas. Instead, the success at Puebla encouraged the republican guerillas and their activity kept the French army busy until the end of the American Civil War. At the end of our civil war, the Union army supported the Mexican republicans in their effort to expel Maximilian. So at least one writer says, the United States should celebrate Cinco de Mayo as a battle that helped preserve our Union. http://www.vivacincodemayo.org/history.htm If that is the case, displaying the U.S. flag at a celebration of Cinco de Mayo within the United States would be appropriate. On the other hand, if someone was a "states rights" advocate, they could display "Dixie" in opposition to the celebration. David On May 6, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Students were told at a school in California that they couldn't wear clothing displaying an American flag yesterday, May 5, for fear it could cause unrest with other students that were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. > > Personally, I find this offensive. ... > Jeff From jo.david at verizon.net Thu May 6 22:25:07 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 22:25:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dog Breeds That Just Didn't Make It References: Message-ID: <3BFA7D97-8636-4575-BE7F-A6076994E3FF@verizon.net> This may have been around before. David Dog Breeds That Just Didn't Make It Deerhound + Terrier = Derriere, a dog that's true to the end Spitz + Chow Chow = Spitz-Chow, a dog that throws up a lot Kerry Blue Terrier + Skye Terrier = Blue Skye, a dog for visionaries Great Pyrenees + Dachshund = Pyradachs, a puzzling breed Pekingnese + Lhasa Apso = Peekasso, an abstract dog Irish Water Spaniel + English Springer = Spaniel Irish Springer, a dog fresh and clean as a whistle Labrador Retriever + Curly Coated Retriever = Lab Coat Retriever, the choice of research scientists Newfoundland + Basset Hound = Newfound Asset Hound, a dog for financial advisors Terrier + Bulldog = Terribull, a dog that makes awful mistakes Bloodhound + Labrador = Blabador, a dog that barks (or drools) incessantly Malamute + Pointer = Moot Point, owned by ... oh, well, it doesn't matter anyway Collie + Malamute = Commute, a dog that travels to work with you Bloodhound + Borzoi = Bloody Bore, a dog that's not much fun Pointer + Setter = Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet Collie + Lhasa Apso = Collapso, a dog that folds up for easy transport From waltw at teleport.com Thu May 6 22:44:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 22:44:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dog Breeds That Just Didn't Make It In-Reply-To: <3BFA7D97-8636-4575-BE7F-A6076994E3FF@verizon.net> References: <3BFA7D97-8636-4575-BE7F-A6076994E3FF@verizon.net> Message-ID: You forgot Bulldog + Shi-tzu,= Bullsh-- (Not new with me, it was in the Oregonian comics page a few days ago). On May 6, 2010, at 10:25 PM, David Morelli wrote: > This may have been around before. > David > > Dog Breeds That Just Didn't Make It > > Deerhound + Terrier = Derriere, a dog that's true to the end > > Spitz + Chow Chow = Spitz-Chow, a dog that throws up a lot > > Kerry Blue Terrier + Skye Terrier = Blue Skye, a dog for > visionaries > > Great Pyrenees + Dachshund = Pyradachs, a puzzling breed > > Pekingnese + Lhasa Apso = Peekasso, an abstract dog > > Irish Water Spaniel + English Springer = Spaniel Irish > Springer, a dog fresh and clean as a whistle > > Labrador Retriever + Curly Coated Retriever = Lab Coat > Retriever, the choice of research scientists > > Newfoundland + Basset Hound = Newfound Asset Hound, a dog > for financial advisors > > Terrier + Bulldog = Terribull, a dog that makes awful > mistakes > > Bloodhound + Labrador = Blabador, a dog that barks (or > drools) incessantly > > Malamute + Pointer = Moot Point, owned by ... oh, well, it > doesn't matter anyway > > Collie + Malamute = Commute, a dog that travels to work with > you > > Bloodhound + Borzoi = Bloody Bore, a dog that's not much fun > > Pointer + Setter = Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet > > Collie + Lhasa Apso = Collapso, a dog that folds up for easy > transport > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ebgenly at yahoo.com Fri May 7 07:23:16 2010 From: ebgenly at yahoo.com (Elisabeth Genly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 07:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Local doctor speaking at Whole Foods Message-ID: <656334.88962.qm@web38004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I thought some folks might be interested in this. Dr. Vannoy is a wonderful naturopathic physician, and a delightful person. Beth To Celebrate Mother's Day: Women's Wellness Event Saturday, May 8th 12-4pm | Calling all of you who have a Mother, friend, co-worker, significant other, spouse: Don't miss this unique event! * Our Whole Body Department will be hosting several key vendors , handing out samples, and talking about many unique and useful products from our wellness area. * We'll also have Naturopathic Doctor Wendy Vannoy, specializing in Women's Health, with us at 2pm talking about all aspects of women's health. * We'll also feature Dr. Tori Hudson's book on Women's Health. * Massage Envy will be also be generously providing chair massages. * Don't miss our drawing for a Whole Body gift basket, valued at $100!!! * The first 100 guests to sign up and be present will receive a wonderful wellness gift bag to enjoy! Sign up today at Guest Services for the 2pm talk and also for a massage- spaces will be limited! At Whole Foods Tanasbourne 19440 NW Cornell Rd Hillsboro, OR 97124 USA Phone 503.645.9200 From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 08:32:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 08:32:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed References: <02e101caed43$a52fb780$ef8f2680$@com> <0C1D7B3F-BBFD-440D-9223-5CC29FBF2E4C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE43297.00001B.03560@DON-B2514E06367> Even more offensive it gets, but a legal emigrant from Mexico, now an American citizen, sets the record straight. Two videos cover these two events. http://www.the912project us/forum/topic/show?id=2881797%3ATopic%3A760845&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_top c Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 5/6/2010 10:18:17 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Students Rights Infringed There are provisions in the law about making a U.S. flag in to an article of clothing. That was tested during the Vietnam War era. Otherwise, the proper and respectful display of an American flag should be protected free speech. Especially when disrespect is considered free speech. Mexican Independence Day is September 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day Cinco de Mayo celebrates the Mexican army's victory over a French invasion force in the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. After the battle, the French army did succeed in placing Maximilian as the Mexican Emperor. Louis Napoleon had hoped to use Mexico as a base to support the Confederate states in a move to establish French dominance over the Americas. Instead, the success at Puebla encouraged the republican guerillas and their activity kept the French army busy until the end of the American Civil War. At the end of our civil war, the Union army supported the Mexican republicans in their effort to expel Maximilian. So at least one writer says, the United States should celebrate Cinco de Mayo as a battle that helped preserve our Union. http://www.vivacincodemayo.org/history.htm If that is the case, displaying the U.S. flag at a celebration of Cinco de Mayo within the United States would be appropriate. On the other hand, if someone was a "states rights" advocate, they could display "Dixie" in opposition to the celebration. David On May 6, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Students were told at a school in California that they couldn't wear clothing displaying an American flag yesterday, May 5, for fear it could cause unrest with other students that were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. > > Personally, I find this offensive. ... > Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/e3f34cd9/attachment.gif From admin at ronhowden.com Fri May 7 11:02:02 2010 From: admin at ronhowden.com (Ron Howden) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:02:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights Message-ID: <00a301caee0f$676828c0$36387a40$@com> Washington County is in the process of converting 370 traffic signals to flashing yellow to make it easier to turn left when there isn't any oncoming traffic. I have included a video link explaining this new system. http://www.youtube.com/washingtoncntyoregon Enjoy, Ron H. From allnutt at verizon.net Fri May 7 11:11:35 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 11:11:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights In-Reply-To: <00a301caee0f$676828c0$36387a40$@com> References: <00a301caee0f$676828c0$36387a40$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Ron! I have passed this along to other lists. Katie On May 7, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Ron Howden wrote: > Washington County is in the process of converting 370 traffic > signals to > flashing yellow to make it easier to turn left when there isn't any > oncoming > traffic. > > I have included a video link explaining this new system. > > http://www.youtube.com/washingtoncntyoregon > > > > Enjoy, > > Ron H. > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 11:12:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:12:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights References: <00a301caee0f$676828c0$36387a40$@com> Message-ID: <4BE457F5.000038.03560@DON-B2514E06367> Terrific idea for drivers who use the flashing yellow arrow safely. It should facilitate movement of traffic, if safely used. If not, train wreck bigtime. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ron Howden Date: 5/7/2010 11:02:41 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights Washington County is in the process of converting 370 traffic signals to flashing yellow to make it easier to turn left when there isn't any oncoming traffic. I have included a video link explaining this new system. http://www.youtube.com/washingtoncntyoregon Enjoy, Ron H. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/8e0bae47/attachment.gif From christianamayer at gmail.com Fri May 7 12:04:48 2010 From: christianamayer at gmail.com (Christiana Mayer) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:04:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette Message-ID: Here are some sites that cover Flag etiquette. http://www.usa-flag-site.org/etiquette.shtml http://www.usa-flag-site.org/etiquette-display.shtml http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code Christiana =============================== Christiana Mayer christianamayer at gmail.com "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Fri May 7 12:16:22 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:16:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag to protest all the drug killings there. Will he be arrested? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 12:34:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:34:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> Message-ID: <4BE46B5C.000042.03560@DON-B2514E06367> If arrested, on what grounds, littering? In which case ACLU might defend him on the concept of freedom of speech. Don, wondering with you. -------Original Message------- From: Steven Date: 5/7/2010 12:16:34 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag to protest all the drug killings there. Will he be arrested? _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/d3d22bf6/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Fri May 7 12:46:18 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:46:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <4BE46B5C.000042.03560@DON-B2514E06367> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <4BE46B5C.000042.03560@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <03f701caee1d$fd9345b0$f8b9d110$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > If arrested, on what grounds, littering? > > In which case ACLU might defend him on the concept of freedom of > speech. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Littering isn't protected under the 1st Amendment. ;P Jeff From jbcoops at yahoo.com Fri May 7 12:57:35 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights In-Reply-To: <4BE457F5.000038.03560@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <190963.55885.qm@web55004.mail.re4.yahoo.com> This is already in place through most of Hillsboro, and is set up for late night when traffic flow is at a minimum.? I doubt that the system will be used 24/7, especially at busy intersections like Pacific and 47.? It makes complete sense to put this in place, sensors often take over a minute to "kick in" and give someone the "left arrow green light" when there is no one around for miles.? Bottom line is the flashing yellow makes total sense for late night settings.? Anyone who turns left with a flashing arrow when there is oncoming traffic thereby causing a "train wreck" probably shouldn't be driving anyway. --- On Fri, 5/7/10, donkelly wrote: From: donkelly Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flashing Yellow lights To: ron at ronhowden.com, "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:12 AM Terrific idea for drivers who use the flashing yellow arrow safely. It should facilitate movement of traffic, if safely used. If not, train wreck bigtime. Don? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 13:01:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:01:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <4BE46B5C.000042.03560@DON-B2514E06367> <03f701caee1d$fd9345b0$f8b9d110$@com> Message-ID: <4BE4718A.000045.03560@DON-B2514E06367> Just pointing out, in a sneaky manner, that if a flag is burned as an exercise in free speech, littering will result. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 5/7/2010 12:46:50 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > If arrested, on what grounds, littering? > > In which case ACLU might defend him on the concept of freedom of > speech. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Littering isn't protected under the 1st Amendment. ;P Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/1841be20/attachment.gif From allnutt at verizon.net Fri May 7 13:25:25 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 13:25:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> Message-ID: <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> Well Steven it depends. Is he burning the flag here or in Mexico? And do you want him arrested for it or do you want him to be able to burn the flag in protest? Katie A lot depends on the details.... On May 7, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Steven wrote: > I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag > to protest > all the drug killings there. > > Will he be arrested? > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri May 7 13:38:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:38:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> Message-ID: <69CC8577-B021-4453-A4A5-664182C63CD1@teleport.com> American flags are routinely (and legally) burned when they become tattered or dirty. The only legal stipulation is that they be be burned "respectfully." If they raally wanted to protest the drug killings in Mexico, they'd have to invent a new flag for all the American dope addicts who ultimately finance those killings. A hundred-dollar bill and a hypodermic needle rampant upon a field of caps and pills, maybe? WW On May 7, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Well Steven it depends. > Is he burning the flag here or in Mexico? > And do you want him arrested for it or do you want him to be able to > burn the flag in protest? > > > > Katie > A lot depends on the details.... > > > On May 7, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Steven wrote: > >> I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag >> to protest >> all the drug killings there. >> >> Will he be arrested? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 14:40:55 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:40:55 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> <69CC8577-B021-4453-A4A5-664182C63CD1@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BE488E7.000007.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Not a bad tongue in cheek idea Walt. If America wasn't a rich market place, drug dealers would go somewhere else. As for burning flags, I couldn't support burning any nation's flag because it is a stab to the heart of people who love and honor their flag. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 05/07/10 13:37:32 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette American flags are routinely (and legally) burned when they become tattered or dirty. The only legal stipulation is that they be be burned "respectfully." If they raally wanted to protest the drug killings in Mexico, they'd have to invent a new flag for all the American dope addicts who ultimately finance those killings. A hundred-dollar bill and a hypodermic needle rampant upon a field of caps and pills, maybe? WW On May 7, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Well Steven it depends. > Is he burning the flag here or in Mexico? > And do you want him arrested for it or do you want him to be able to > burn the flag in protest? > > > > Katie > A lot depends on the details.... > > > On May 7, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Steven wrote: > >> I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag >> to protest >> all the drug killings there. >> >> Will he be arrested? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/14bcd5d6/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Fri May 7 15:03:52 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:03:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <4BE488E7.000007.03048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> <69CC8577-B021-4453-A4A5-664182C63CD1@teleport.com> <4BE488E7.000007.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Not really. The flag is only a symbol! It's the country you need to burn. Ed From: donkelly Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 2:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Fri May 7 15:33:41 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:33:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Printer to donate Message-ID: <54AF4DD47BA04B81ADA1AD05DAF6CFA9@EdDaviePC> To elaborate. It works fine at 8.5 x 11 but is capable of 11 x 17 paper. Ed From: Ed Davie Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:49 PM To: Grovenet F.G. Subject: Printer to donate Hi all, I have a large format, black & white, hp LaserJet 5100, available to donate to a deserving organization. Email me off site at edavie at verizon.net. Thanks, Ed From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 15:36:14 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:36:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Printer to donate References: <54AF4DD47BA04B81ADA1AD05DAF6CFA9@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4BE495D1.000010.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Ed, have you contacted the Forest Grove Library? Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 5/7/2010 3:33:51 PM To: Grovenet F.G. Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Printer to donate To elaborate. It works fine at 8.5 x 11 but is capable of 11 x 17 paper. Ed From: Ed Davie Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:49 PM To: Grovenet F.G. Subject: Printer to donate Hi all, I have a large format, black & white, hp LaserJet 5100, available to donate to a deserving organization. Email me off site at edavie at verizon.net. Thanks, Ed _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/7a4a0e4b/attachment.gif From rab at jurislex.com Fri May 7 16:57:21 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 16:57:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <03f701caee1d$fd9345b0$f8b9d110$@com> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <4BE46B5C.000042.03560@DON-B2514E06367> <03f701caee1d$fd9345b0$f8b9d110$@com> Message-ID: <4BE4A8E1.40202@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100507/2b5f43c7/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Fri May 7 18:22:53 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 18:22:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? Message-ID: From the Oregon Heritage News: STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO POWER UP ON SATURDAY The historic steam locomotive SP 4449, the SP&S 600 sleeper/lounge, and a UP caboose will be on display from 10 a.m.-2:30 p.m. May 8 at the historic Union Station, 800 NW Sixth St., in Portland during National Train Day celebrations. Displays will be presented by the Pacific Northwest chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, the Friends of SP 4449, the SP&S Railway Historical Society, the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation, the Pacific Railroad Preservation Association, and others. For more information, visit www.nationaltrainday.org From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri May 7 18:44:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:44:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? References: Message-ID: <4BE4C1DE.000019.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Hope they can bring it down the tracks to Forest Grove again. That was really neat, a train like they had when I was a kid. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 5/7/2010 6:23:56 PM To: grovenet Subject: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? >From the Oregon Heritage News: STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO POWER UP ON SATURDAY The historic steam locomotive SP 4449, the SP&S 600 sleeper/lounge, and a UP caboose will be on display from 10 a.m.-2:30 p.m. May 8 at the historic Union Station, 800 NW Sixth St., in Portland during National Train Day celebrations. Displays will be presented by the Pacific Northwest chapter of the National Railway Historical Society, the Friends of SP 4449, the SP&S Railway Historical Society, the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation, the Pacific Railroad Preservation Association, and others. For more information, visit www.nationaltrainday.org _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100507/094619c0/attachment-0001.gif From edavie at verizon.net Fri May 7 19:48:39 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 19:48:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: Printer to donate In-Reply-To: <4BE495D1.000010.03048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <54AF4DD47BA04B81ADA1AD05DAF6CFA9@EdDaviePC> <4BE495D1.000010.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: No, but they usually monitor Grovenet. Ed From: donkelly Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 3:36 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: Printer to donate _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri May 7 21:19:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 21:19:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D9C57E3-8CF4-42B1-9D66-6821A91A9302@verizon.net> Thank you. David On May 7, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Christiana Mayer wrote: > Here are some sites that cover Flag etiquette. > > http://www.usa-flag-site.org/etiquette.shtml > http://www.usa-flag-site.org/etiquette-display.shtml > > http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code > > > Christiana > =============================== > Christiana Mayer > christianamayer at gmail.com > "Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a > touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri May 7 21:47:56 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:47:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <4BE488E7.000007.03048@DON-B2514E06367> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> <69CC8577-B021-4453-A4A5-664182C63CD1@teleport.com> <4BE488E7.000007.03048@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: True, America is a rich marketplace-- not only for the weakness/self- indulgence/desperation of our drug addicts, but because of the pervasive insecurity that encourages addiction. If we had a solid economy and a decent employment picture, I think the drug problem would be much less, and the American market much less tempting to the drug gangs. Of course, the destructive effects of NAFTA on Mexico haven't helped, either. When smuggling or dealing dope is the only job that brings in a good wage, naturally young men will gravitate in that direction. WW On May 7, 2010, at 2:40 PM, donkelly wrote: > Not a bad tongue in cheek idea Walt. If America wasn't a rich > market place, > drug dealers would go somewhere else. > > As for burning flags, I couldn't support burning any nation's flag > because > it is a stab to the heart of people who love and honor their flag. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 05/07/10 13:37:32 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette > > American flags are routinely (and legally) burned when they become > tattered or dirty. The only legal stipulation is that they be be > burned "respectfully." > If they raally wanted to protest the drug killings in Mexico, they'd > have to invent a new flag for all the American dope addicts who > ultimately finance those killings. > A hundred-dollar bill and a hypodermic needle rampant upon a field of > caps and pills, maybe? > WW > On May 7, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Well Steven it depends. >> Is he burning the flag here or in Mexico? >> And do you want him arrested for it or do you want him to be able to >> burn the flag in protest? >> >> >> >> Katie >> A lot depends on the details.... >> >> >> On May 7, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Steven wrote: >> >>> I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag >>> to protest >>> all the drug killings there. >>> >>> Will he be arrested? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat May 8 08:09:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 08:09:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] All you fans out there References: <7a86ca-4f3a-4be57a1f@web01.moveon.org> Message-ID: <11C26FC1-EC24-4592-B447-803E3E32C62A@teleport.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kat Barr, MoveOn.org Political Action" help at list.moveon.org> > Date: May 8, 2010 7:50:07 AM PDT > To: "Walter J. Wentz" > Subject: Move the game > > Clicking here will add your name to MoveTheGame.org's petition to > baseball Commissioner Bud Selig: > "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All-Star Game unless > Arizona changes its harmful and hateful immigration law." > > Sign the petition > Dear MoveOn member, > > The new anti-immigration law in Arizona?which allows police to stop > anyone they "reasonably" suspect of being in the U.S. illegally, > and demand their papers?is an affront to basic American values.1 > > And a recent round of calls for repeal is coming from an unusual > source: Major League Baseball players, nearly 30% of whom are Latino.2 > > Players are demanding that the 2011 All-Star Game be moved from > Phoenix, AZ unless the law is repealed?and we've got to get their > backs. MLB Commissioner Bud Selig has the final decision on whether > to move the All-Star Game, but he isn't likely to listen to the > players unless he hears from fans too. > Our friends at MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org, have > launched a petition to urge Commissioner Selig to move the game?can > you sign today? Clicking here will add your name: > > http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=5 > > The petition says: "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All- > Star Game unless Arizona changes its harmful and hateful > immigration law." > > The Arizona law has outraged many ball players and fans alike. > Among those who've spoken out against the law are All-Star Adrian > Gonzalez of the San Diego Padres and World Series-winning manager > Ozzie Guillen of the Chicago White Sox, and the MLB Players > Association condemned the law recently.3 > > Given that Arizona stands to make upwards of $60 million from the > All-Star Game, calling for a change of venue is a powerful demand > both politically and economically.4 > > And there's precedent here: in 1993, the NFL pulled Super Bowl > XXVII out of Tempe, Arizona because the state didn't recognize > Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. We can do it again, and send a clear > message to Arizona lawmakers that players and fans won't stand for > this new law.5 > > Our friends at www.MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org and > Fenton, will deliver the petition signatures to MLB headquarters, > join with players, managers, and veterans to speak out, and make > sure both Selig and the press hear the call that the game must be > moved. Presente.org will also keep you updated by email about > progress and further developments. > > Can you sign MoveTheGame.org's petition today? The more folks who > sign, the stronger the message?so click below to sign, then send > this email to ten of your friends today. > > http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=6 > > Thanks for all you do. > > ?Kat, Steven, Tim, Milan, Amy, and the rest of the team > > P.S. Check out www.MoveTheGame.org and www.Presente.org for more > information. > > Sources: > 1. "Arizona Immigration Law Threatens Civil Rights And Public > Safety, Says ACLU," April 23, 2010, ACLU.org > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88173&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=7 > > "Arizona Enacts Stringent Law on Immigration," The New York Times, > April 23, 2010 > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html > > 2. "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 > http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 > > "Could immigration furor create positive evolution?" The Associated > Press, May 3, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88182&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=8 > > 3. "Adrian Gonzalez speaks out against Arizona immigration law," > The Chicago Sun-Times, May 3, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88176&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=9 > > 4. "Can Major League Baseball Reverse Arizona's Immigration Law?" > Atlantic Politics, April 27, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88169&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=10 > > "Arizona Immigration Boycott Zeroes in on Baseball," CBS News, > April 29, 2010 > http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20003747-503544.html > > "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 > http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 > > 5. Ibid. > > Want to support our work? We're entirely funded by our 5 million > members?no corporate contributions, no big checks from CEOs. And > our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. Chip > in here. > > PAID FOR BY MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION, http://pol.moveon.org/. > Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. This > email was sent to Walter J. Wentz on May 8, 2010. To change your > email address or update your contact info, click here. To remove > yourself from this list, click here. From tosca at prodigy.net Sat May 8 12:31:56 2010 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie B. Combs) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 12:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? Message-ID: <921549.29608.qm@web81404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I hope this is? the beginning of a trend in train travel.? On a recent overnight trip to visit friends in California, via? the wonderful Coast Starlingt, I was impressed by the improved levels of service.? It certainly is morre pleasant than air travel if one has the time.? And the food is great. Bonnie --- On Fri, 5/7/10, donkelly wrote: > From: donkelly > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 6:44 PM >? > Hope they can bring it down the tracks to Forest Grove > again. That was > really neat, a train like they had when I was a kid. > > Don >? >? > -------Original Message------- >? > From: David Morelli > Date: 5/7/2010 6:23:56 PM > To: grovenet > Subject: [Grovenet] Hot air or steam? >? > >From the Oregon Heritage News: >? > STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO POWER UP ON SATURDAY >? > The historic steam locomotive SP 4449, the SP&S 600 > sleeper/lounge, and a UP > caboose will be on display from 10 a.m.-2:30 p.m. May 8 at > the historic > Union Station, 800 NW Sixth St., in Portland during > National Train Day > celebrations. >? > Displays will be presented by the Pacific Northwest chapter > of the National > Railway Historical Society, the Friends of SP 4449, the > SP&S Railway > Historical Society, the? Oregon Rail Heritage > Foundation, the Pacific > Railroad Preservation Association, and others. For more > information, visit > www.nationaltrainday.org > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat May 8 13:45:32 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:45:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My Name Is "Old Glory" Message-ID: <7875-4BE5CD6C-338@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> This my response to yesterdays post about the use of the flag. I was huntin' around for some mothers day e-cards when I came upon this site. Ya know ... that no matter how many times I view a pix of Old Glory ... I still get a tear in my eye, and makes me proud to be an American .. Oregon Red Neck not with-standing. Even though it has been more than 40 years give or take .. I still can envision Old Glory flying some what the worse for ware above my bunker, I can even remember seeing it be picked up off the ground of the muddy rice paddies, I'm even getting teary eyed as I am posting this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100508/82225d37/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.dobhran.com/greetings/GRinspire466.htm From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 8 20:12:56 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:12:56 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] My Name Is "Old Glory" References: <7875-4BE5CD6C-338@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4BE62834.00000C.03128@DON-B2514E06367> I know the feeling Alan. I still salute the flag in honor of millions who have died defending it. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 5/8/2010 1:45:43 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] My Name Is "Old Glory" ~A~This is my story and I'm sticking to it -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100508/ded7d141/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat May 8 20:30:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:30:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] All you fans out there References: <7a86ca-4f3a-4be57a1f@web01.moveon.org> <11C26FC1-EC24-4592-B447-803E3E32C62A@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BE62C49.000014.03128@DON-B2514E06367> Oh my GAWD. Kat Barr has way too much time on her hands. She needs to spend some her excess time to actually read the bill. But perhaps that is too much to ask of a blind person. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 5/8/2010 8:09:15 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] All you fans out there Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kat Barr, MoveOn.org Political Action" help at list.moveon.org> > Date: May 8, 2010 7:50:07 AM PDT > To: "Walter J. Wentz" > Subject: Move the game > > Clicking here will add your name to MoveTheGame.org's petition to > baseball Commissioner Bud Selig: > "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All-Star Game unless > Arizona changes its harmful and hateful immigration law." > > Sign the petition > Dear MoveOn member, > > The new anti-immigration law in Arizona?which allows police to stop > anyone they "reasonably" suspect of being in the U.S. illegally, > and demand their papers?is an affront to basic American values.1 > > And a recent round of calls for repeal is coming from an unusual > source: Major League Baseball players, nearly 30% of whom are Latino.2 > > Players are demanding that the 2011 All-Star Game be moved from > Phoenix, AZ unless the law is repealed?and we've got to get their > backs. MLB Commissioner Bud Selig has the final decision on whether > to move the All-Star Game, but he isn't likely to listen to the > players unless he hears from fans too. > Our friends at MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org, have > launched a petition to urge Commissioner Selig to move the game?can > you sign today? Clicking here will add your name: > > http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=5 > > The petition says: "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All- > Star Game unless Arizona changes its harmful and hateful > immigration law." > > The Arizona law has outraged many ball players and fans alike. > Among those who've spoken out against the law are All-Star Adrian > Gonzalez of the San Diego Padres and World Series-winning manager > Ozzie Guillen of the Chicago White Sox, and the MLB Players > Association condemned the law recently.3 > > Given that Arizona stands to make upwards of $60 million from the > All-Star Game, calling for a change of venue is a powerful demand > both politically and economically.4 > > And there's precedent here: in 1993, the NFL pulled Super Bowl > XXVII out of Tempe, Arizona because the state didn't recognize > Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. We can do it again, and send a clear > message to Arizona lawmakers that players and fans won't stand for > this new law.5 > > Our friends at www.MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org and > Fenton, will deliver the petition signatures to MLB headquarters, > join with players, managers, and veterans to speak out, and make > sure both Selig and the press hear the call that the game must be > moved. Presente.org will also keep you updated by email about > progress and further developments. > > Can you sign MoveTheGame.org's petition today? The more folks who > sign, the stronger the message?so click below to sign, then send > this email to ten of your friends today. > > http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=6 > > Thanks for all you do. > > ?Kat, Steven, Tim, Milan, Amy, and the rest of the team > > P.S. Check out www.MoveTheGame.org and www.Presente.org for more > information. > > Sources: > 1. "Arizona Immigration Law Threatens Civil Rights And Public > Safety, Says ACLU," April 23, 2010, ACLU.org > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88173&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=7 > > "Arizona Enacts Stringent Law on Immigration," The New York Times, > April 23, 2010 > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html > > 2. "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 > http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 > > "Could immigration furor create positive evolution?" The Associated > Press, May 3, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88182&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=8 > > 3. "Adrian Gonzalez speaks out against Arizona immigration law," > The Chicago Sun-Times, May 3, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88176&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=9 > > 4. "Can Major League Baseball Reverse Arizona's Immigration Law?" > Atlantic Politics, April 27, 2010 > http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88169&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=10 > > "Arizona Immigration Boycott Zeroes in on Baseball," CBS News, > April 29, 2010 > http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20003747-503544.html > > "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 > http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 > > 5. Ibid. > > Want to support our work? We're entirely funded by our 5 million > members?no corporate contributions, no big checks from CEOs. And > our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. Chip > in here. > > PAID FOR BY MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION, http://pol.moveon.org/. > Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. This > email was sent to Walter J. Wentz on May 8, 2010. To change your > email address or update your contact info, click here. To remove > yourself from this list, click here. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100508/35b175f7/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Sat May 8 21:09:11 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:09:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] My Name Is "Old Glory" In-Reply-To: <4BE62834.00000C.03128@DON-B2514E06367> References: <7875-4BE5CD6C-338@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4BE62834.00000C.03128@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2AD143E4-99F8-47AA-B705-0D98BE54001B@verizon.net> I also salute the flag as a representation of those who have sacrificed for the principles we share. Good news, sort of. While many millions have served this country in the military, the deaths of military personnel from all causes from Revolutionary time to the present is "only" about one million. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/american%20war%20casualty.htm That is a large number, and suitable reason to salute them as the flag goes by. It would still be suitable to honor those who died to preserve the principles of our nation, even if the number who died was only ... one. It isn't the quantity, it is the quality of the sacrifice. And there are others in addition to the military who have sacrificed to ensure the preservation of our rights and freedoms. I am proud to salute them as well. David On May 8, 2010, at 8:12 PM, donkelly wrote: > I know the feeling Alan. I still salute the flag in honor of millions who have died defending it. > > Don From waltw at teleport.com Sat May 8 22:30:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 22:30:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] All you fans out there In-Reply-To: <4BE62C49.000014.03128@DON-B2514E06367> References: <7a86ca-4f3a-4be57a1f@web01.moveon.org> <11C26FC1-EC24-4592-B447-803E3E32C62A@teleport.com> <4BE62C49.000014.03128@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: The point of the posting was, even the baseball players are calling for a boycott. What's more American than Apple Pie and Baseball? WW On May 8, 2010, at 8:30 PM, donkelly wrote: > > Oh my GAWD. > > Kat Barr has way too much time on her hands. She needs to spend > some her > excess time to actually read the bill. But perhaps that is too much > to ask > of a blind person. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 5/8/2010 8:09:15 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] All you fans out there > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Kat Barr, MoveOn.org Political Action" > help at list.moveon.org> >> Date: May 8, 2010 7:50:07 AM PDT >> To: "Walter J. Wentz" >> Subject: Move the game >> >> Clicking here will add your name to MoveTheGame.org's petition to >> baseball Commissioner Bud Selig: >> "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All-Star Game unless >> Arizona changes its harmful and hateful immigration law." >> >> Sign the petition >> Dear MoveOn member, >> >> The new anti-immigration law in Arizona?which allows police to stop >> anyone they "reasonably" suspect of being in the U.S. illegally, >> and demand their papers?is an affront to basic American values.1 >> >> And a recent round of calls for repeal is coming from an unusual >> source: Major League Baseball players, nearly 30% of whom are >> Latino.2 >> >> Players are demanding that the 2011 All-Star Game be moved from >> Phoenix, AZ unless the law is repealed?and we've got to get their >> backs. MLB Commissioner Bud Selig has the final decision on whether >> to move the All-Star Game, but he isn't likely to listen to the >> players unless he hears from fans too. >> Our friends at MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org, have >> launched a petition to urge Commissioner Selig to move the game?can >> you sign today? Clicking here will add your name: >> >> http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=5 >> >> The petition says: "Do what's best for baseball: Move the 2011 All- >> Star Game unless Arizona changes its harmful and hateful >> immigration law." >> >> The Arizona law has outraged many ball players and fans alike. >> Among those who've spoken out against the law are All-Star Adrian >> Gonzalez of the San Diego Padres and World Series-winning manager >> Ozzie Guillen of the Chicago White Sox, and the MLB Players >> Association condemned the law recently.3 >> >> Given that Arizona stands to make upwards of $60 million from the >> All-Star Game, calling for a change of venue is a powerful demand >> both politically and economically.4 >> >> And there's precedent here: in 1993, the NFL pulled Super Bowl >> XXVII out of Tempe, Arizona because the state didn't recognize >> Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. We can do it again, and send a clear >> message to Arizona lawmakers that players and fans won't stand for >> this new law.5 >> >> Our friends at www.MoveTheGame.org, a project of Presente.org and >> Fenton, will deliver the petition signatures to MLB headquarters, >> join with players, managers, and veterans to speak out, and make >> sure both Selig and the press hear the call that the game must be >> moved. Presente.org will also keep you updated by email about >> progress and further developments. >> >> Can you sign MoveTheGame.org's petition today? The more folks who >> sign, the stronger the message?so click below to sign, then send >> this email to ten of your friends today. >> >> http://pol.moveon.org/move_the_game/o.pl?id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=6 >> >> Thanks for all you do. >> >> ?Kat, Steven, Tim, Milan, Amy, and the rest of the team >> >> P.S. Check out www.MoveTheGame.org and www.Presente.org for more >> information. >> >> Sources: >> 1. "Arizona Immigration Law Threatens Civil Rights And Public >> Safety, Says ACLU," April 23, 2010, ACLU.org >> http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88173&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=7 >> >> "Arizona Enacts Stringent Law on Immigration," The New York Times, >> April 23, 2010 >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html >> >> 2. "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 >> http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 >> >> "Could immigration furor create positive evolution?" The Associated >> Press, May 3, 2010 >> http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88182&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=8 >> >> 3. "Adrian Gonzalez speaks out against Arizona immigration law," >> The Chicago Sun-Times, May 3, 2010 >> http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88176&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=9 >> >> 4. "Can Major League Baseball Reverse Arizona's Immigration Law?" >> Atlantic Politics, April 27, 2010 >> http://www.moveon.org/r?r=88169&id=20282-8029898-HmrzQUx&t=10 >> >> "Arizona Immigration Boycott Zeroes in on Baseball," CBS News, >> April 29, 2010 >> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20003747-503544.html >> >> "Will All-Star Game Boycott Arizona?" ABC News, May 3, 2010 >> http://abcnews.go.com/m/screen?id=10511724&pid=4380645 >> >> 5. Ibid. >> >> Want to support our work? We're entirely funded by our 5 million >> members?no corporate contributions, no big checks from CEOs. And >> our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. Chip >> in here. >> >> PAID FOR BY MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION, http://pol.moveon.org/. >> Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee. This >> email was sent to Walter J. Wentz on May 8, 2010. To change your >> email address or update your contact info, click here. To remove >> yourself from this list, click here. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon May 10 13:35:13 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:35:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Flag etiquette In-Reply-To: <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE86E01.7060407@gmail.com> I always like my Dad's response to burning the flag. He had no problem with it as long as you wrapped it around yourself first ;-) Adam Katie Allnutt wrote: > Well Steven it depends. > Is he burning the flag here or in Mexico? > And do you want him arrested for it or do you want him to be able to > burn the flag in protest? > > > > Katie > A lot depends on the details.... > > > On May 7, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Steven wrote: > > >> I'm waiting for the news to hit of a guy burning the Mexican flag >> to protest >> all the drug killings there. >> >> Will he be arrested? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Mon May 10 15:46:31 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Barnes & Noble bookfair May 15th & 16th In-Reply-To: <4BE86E01.7060407@gmail.com> References: <009601caee19$c8611880$59234980$@net> <0B6AA614-309B-4F6B-A0E4-150CDA6E7CB2@verizon.net> <4BE86E01.7060407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <927309.33575.qm@web112419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Forest Grove Community School bookfair will take place on Saturday and Sunday, May 15th and 16th. Customers will need to tell the cashier their purchase is for FGCS. EVERYONE, all over the country can participate on those two days at Barnes and Noble. They may also be used for online purchases, our code for customers to use is 10190882 bn.com/bookfairs Thank you in advance for helping support the growth of our school library. Vickie From rab at jurislex.com Mon May 10 15:51:04 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:51:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] White flight? Suburbs lose young whites to cities Message-ID: <4BE88DD8.7050405@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100510/6c2d640e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: news.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100510/6c2d640e/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ap_logo_106.png Type: image/png Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100510/6c2d640e/attachment.png From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon May 10 16:36:13 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:36:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?Tire_incineration_is_not_=93renewable?= =?windows-1252?q?_energy=94?= Message-ID: <4BE8986D.9040408@gmail.com> The winner of the 2010 Exxon outstanding achievement in environmentalism............ http://www.postcarbon.org/blog-post/88655-tire-incineration-is-not-renewable-energy Tire incineration is not ?renewable energy? /[Excerpt]/ How do you solve a problem like David Miller? According to the Chicago Tribune, he is the Illinois representative who last month, with little fanfare and notice at the time, attempted to modify legislation to include tire burning in the state?s definition of renewable energy. The bill failed to pass initially but it isn?t dead yet ? supporters may attempt to add it to another bill before the General Assembly adjourns. The amendment was mainly done to allow a company called Geneva Energy to obtain green energy credits for its incinerator in Ford Heights, a village in Cook County approximately 25 miles south of downtown Chicago. In 2000, the village was 96 percent African-American and had a per capita income less than $9,000, making it one of the poorest suburbs in the United States. The incinerator has had difficulty complying with environmental regulations regarding its pollution and toxic releases at the site, the Tribune reports. After Rep. Miller changed the language in the bill, and concern from environmental groups increased, he removed his name from the bill and recently absolved himself of all responsibility by declaring it ?no longer his bill.? Through our public health lens, one with which we try to maximize the health and well-being of populations of people, there are several aspects of this that are very wrong. To start with, we must get serious about real renewable energy... From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon May 10 19:20:42 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 02:20:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] =?utf-8?q?Tire_incineration_is_not_=E2=80=9Crenewable_?= =?utf-8?b?ZW5lcmd54oCd?= In-Reply-To: <4BE8986D.9040408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1003435556.17761781273544442020.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Turn old tires into oil is renewable energy. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:36:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Tire incineration is not ?renewable energy? The winner of the 2010 Exxon outstanding achievement in environmentalism............ http://www.postcarbon.org/blog-post/88655-tire-incineration-is-not-renewable-energy Tire incineration is not ?renewable energy? /[Excerpt]/ How do you solve a problem like David Miller? According to the Chicago Tribune, he is the Illinois representative who last month, with little fanfare and notice at the time, attempted to modify legislation to include tire burning in the state?s definition of renewable energy. The bill failed to pass initially but it isn?t dead yet ? supporters may attempt to add it to another bill before the General Assembly adjourns. The amendment was mainly done to allow a company called Geneva Energy to obtain green energy credits for its incinerator in Ford Heights, a village in Cook County approximately 25 miles south of downtown Chicago. In 2000, the village was 96 percent African-American and had a per capita income less than $9,000, making it one of the poorest suburbs in the United States. The incinerator has had difficulty complying with environmental regulations regarding its pollution and toxic releases at the site, the Tribune reports. After Rep. Miller changed the language in the bill, and concern from environmental groups increased, he removed his name from the bill and recently absolved himself of all responsibility by declaring it ?no longer his bill.? Through our public health lens, one with which we try to maximize the health and well-being of populations of people, there are several aspects of this that are very wrong. To start with, we must get serious about real renewable energy... _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon May 10 20:45:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?Tire_incineration_is_not_=93renewable?= =?windows-1252?q?_energy=94?= In-Reply-To: <1003435556.17761781273544442020.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1003435556.17761781273544442020.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <580D6F46-71D7-4755-B7E6-D303777B866A@teleport.com> Well, not technically-- it's "recycled" energy, since you're using up the energy that was previously bound up in synthetic rubber. And you have to put energy in to get energy out, so there is some loss-- and unless you use some more energy to recapture the pollutants, there is a pollution problem as well. So it is good to find some use for old tires, but they aren't really renewable energy. Probably we're going to have to get our energy from many different sources in the future, as the price of oil keeps going up enough to make those alternatives economically viable. WW On May 10, 2010, at 7:20 PM, donkelly wrote: > Turn old tires into oil is renewable energy. > > don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Adam Mayer > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:36:13 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: [Grovenet] Tire incineration is not ?renewable energy? > > The winner of the 2010 Exxon outstanding achievement in > environmentalism............ > > http://www.postcarbon.org/blog-post/88655-tire-incineration-is-not- > renewable-energy > > > Tire incineration is not ?renewable energy? > > /[Excerpt]/ How do you solve a problem like David Miller? > > According to the Chicago Tribune, he is the Illinois representative > who > last month, with little fanfare and notice at the time, attempted to > modify legislation to include tire burning in the state?s > definition of > renewable energy. > > The bill failed to pass initially but it isn?t dead yet ? > supporters may > attempt to add it to another bill before the General Assembly > adjourns. > > The amendment was mainly done to allow a company called Geneva > Energy to > obtain green energy credits for its incinerator in Ford Heights, a > village in Cook County approximately 25 miles south of downtown > Chicago. > > In 2000, the village was 96 percent African-American and had a per > capita income less than $9,000, making it one of the poorest > suburbs in > the United States. > > The incinerator has had difficulty complying with environmental > regulations regarding its pollution and toxic releases at the site, > the > Tribune reports. > > After Rep. Miller changed the language in the bill, and concern from > environmental groups increased, he removed his name from the bill and > recently absolved himself of all responsibility by declaring it ?no > longer his bill.? > > Through our public health lens, one with which we try to maximize the > health and well-being of populations of people, there are several > aspects of this that are very wrong. > > To start with, we must get serious about real renewable energy... > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ebgenly at yahoo.com Mon May 10 20:48:24 2010 From: ebgenly at yahoo.com (Elisabeth Genly) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Reminder: FGHAN Day of Service This Saturday Message-ID: <817612.58809.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Forest Grove Healing Arts Network practitioners are offering a day of service this Saturday. I know that many of the doctors and massage folks still have open slots. My nutrition talks are open to all (fat and sugar show for kids, "Cravings" for adults) and also our yoga teacher now have a venue, at Curves. Check http://fghan.net for details. I hope to see some of you on Saturday! --Beth From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 11 08:49:06 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:49:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <817612.58809.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> What do you all think about the recent crop of nominees to the supreme court? ============= CBS news has reported Elena Kagan is privately a closet lesbian, but regardless of her private sex life, her public views of the law opposing traditional values are far outside the mainstream. Elena Kagan wrote against religious organizations, defended homosexual marriage, and kicked the military off campus because they enforced the "don't ask, don't tell" law, a move so extremist Kagan was overruled 9-0 by the Supreme Court. Elena Kagan has never served as a Judge and is neither qualified nor experienced. PLEASE VOTE NO AND FILIBUSTER KAGAN. Kagan's opposition to federal law in the Defense of Marriage Act is a 'gift to the gay-marriage movement...helping knock out a leg from under the opposition to gay marriage.' Kagan wrote a memo while clerking for the late Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall that said religious organizations that provide care for teen pregnancies shouldn't get federal funds because of a strict line separating church and state. Kagan is a pro-abortion proverbial bomb-thrower, who will rule as a pro-homosexual, anti-Christian activist, and she must be filibustered if nominated. ============== Personally I strongly believe that a nominee to our highest court should at a minimum have served as a Federal judge at some level, and should not enter the position with pre concieved notions of morality, or lack of same. don From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue May 11 09:17:02 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:17:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BE982FE.7000500@gmail.com> Hmmmm, what do I think? (Answer's embedded below) donkelly wrote: > What do you all think about the recent crop of nominees to the supreme court? > ============= > > CBS news has reported Elena Kagan is privately a closet lesbian, but regardless of her private sex life, her public views of the law opposing traditional values are far outside the mainstream. > So what? As long as she is not infringing upon the rights of others then she can believe whatever she wants. Whether I or anyone else agrees, who cares. > Elena Kagan wrote against religious organizations, defended homosexual marriage, and kicked the military off campus because they enforced the "don't ask, don't tell" law, a move so extremist Kagan was overruled 9-0 by the Supreme Court. > Don't ask, don't tell is discrimination and needs to be eliminated. Again she is expressing her opinions, something we still can do right? > Elena Kagan has never served as a Judge and is neither qualified nor experienced. PLEASE VOTE NO AND FILIBUSTER KAGAN. > This could be a issue of not having served as a judge, it is good to have some experience. But officially it's not required. This would be a toss. > Kagan's opposition to federal law in the Defense of Marriage Act is a 'gift to the gay-marriage movement...helping knock out a leg from under the opposition to gay marriage.' > Good. Discrimination against gay marriage is wrong. > Kagan wrote a memo while clerking for the late Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall that said religious organizations that provide care for teen pregnancies shouldn't get federal funds because of a strict line separating church and state. > _No one_ should be getting federal funds for teen pregnancies. > Kagan is a pro-abortion proverbial bomb-thrower, who will rule as a pro-homosexual, anti-Christian activist, and she must be filibustered if nominated. > Not sure of her "bomb-thrower" status from her past positions (wonder what that makes me?) but she appears to be pro-abortion, pro-homosexual and pro-separation of church and state. Personally I am more interested in her positions on the constitution and the bill of rights. Why is this not being discussed? If this was all I had to go on then I wouldn't be concerned about her getting the nomination. Adam > ============== > > Personally I strongly believe that a nominee to our highest court should at a minimum have served as a Federal judge at some level, and should not enter the position with pre concieved notions of morality, or lack of same. > > don > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 11 12:10:47 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:10:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <817612.58809.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > CBS news has reported Elena Kagan is privately a closet lesbian, but > regardless of her private sex life, her public views of the law > opposing traditional values are far outside the mainstream. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Who cares what her sexual orientation is. For the record, you've mischaracterized the situation regarding CBS news. The "report" was an op-ed piece by a guy named Ben Domenech that they received permission to reprint. It wasn't a news piece. It was an blog-published opinion piece. Further, it was an opinion piece based on rumors and the original author retracted his statements and offered an apology. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-domenech/the-white-house-elena-kag_b_54063 3.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Elena Kagan wrote against religious organizations, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm guessing you're referring to a memo she wrote while clerking for Justice Marshall in which she opined that religious organizations should not be granted federal funding for providing sexual health, abortions, etc. However, during her Solicitor General confirmation hearing, she stated: "I indeed believe that my 22-year-old analysis, written for Justice Marshall, was deeply mistaken. It seems now utterly wrong to me to say that religious organizations generally should be precluded from receiving funds for providing the kinds of services contemplated by the Adolescent Family Life Act. I instead agree with the Bowen Court's statement that '[t]he facially neutral projects authorized by the AFLA-including pregnancy testing, adoption counseling and referral services, prenatal and postnatal care, educational services, residential care, child care, consumer education, etc. are not themselves "specifically religious activities," and they are not converted into such activities by the fact that they are carried out by organizations with religious affiliations.' As that Court recognized, the use of a grant in a particular way by a particular religious organization might constitute a violation of the Establishment Clause - for example, if the organization used the grant to fund what the Court called 'specifically religious activity.' But I think it incorrect (or, as I more colorfully said at the hearing, 'the dumbest thing I ever heard') essentially to presume that a religious organization will use a grant of this kind in an impermissible manner." If that's *not* what you're referring to, please cite the specifics. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] defended homosexual marriage, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< During her Solicitor General confirmation hearing she was asked: "Do you believe that there is a federal constitutional right to samesex marriage?" She responded: "There is no federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage." I'm not sure how you can say she's defending homosexual marriage. If anything, she demonstrates a very intelligent understanding of the Constitution and how the question asked applies to the Constitution. Here's a better analysis of the issues surrounding that statement. http://www.towleroad.com/2010/05/kagan-there-is-no-federal-constitutional-ri ght-to-samesex-marriage.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] and kicked the military off campus because they enforced the > "don't ask, don't tell" law, a move so extremist Kagan was overruled > 9-0 by the Supreme Court. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Being overruled by the Supreme Court doesn't mean her views were extremist. It means there wasn't sufficient legal justification for her position. It's also important to note that she wasn't the primary member of the case, but one of many schools that opposed the Solomon Amendment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Amendment Further, she barred military recruiters from the campus because the military discriminates against individuals based on sexual orientation, a specific policy requirement by Association of American Law Schools, of which Harvard is a member. This wasn't just her own personal position she was pushing. When the case was decided by the Supreme Court, she allowed them on campus (in keeping with the law), but encouraged those against "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" to protest visibly it. For those interested, here's the opinion from the SCOTUS on the case: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1152.pdf Worse, upon following the law, she's then been characterized as a prostitute by Ed Whelan, a member of the right opposition to her. "But, as George Bernard Shaw would have said to Kagan for selling out her supposedly deeply held principles, 'We've already established what you are, ma'am. Now we're just haggling over the price.'" http://mediamatters.org/press/releases/201005090009 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Elena Kagan has never served as a Judge and is neither qualified nor > experienced. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< First and foremost: "Because the Constitution does not set any qualifications for service as a Justice, the President may nominate anyone to serve." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States#Appointment_ and_confirmation Some far more experienced and qualified than you or the individual that wrote the bit you copy-and-pasted this from actually think not being a judge is a plus, not a minus. From Abner Mikva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_J._Mikva "First, Ms. Kagan, the solicitor general, has an unusual vantage since, unlike everyone else now on the Supreme Court, she's never been a judge. 'It's good to have someone like that,' Mr. Mikva said. 'Being a judge narrows your vision too much. All you talk to are other judges. It's like being in Washington too long.' Some of the nation's best justices - including Louis Brandeis, Hugo Black and Earl Warren -never had experience on the bench before going to the top court, Mr. Mikva said." http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/blogs/hinz.pl?plckController=Blog&plc kScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPost Id=Blog%3A1daca073-2eab-468e-9f19-ec177090a35cPost%3Acf97d174-0212-488a-9153 -b09a1e0c9fe7&sid=sitelife.chicagobusiness.com Further, it is not a requirement to serve as a judge to be a justice. There have been other justices that never served as judges, yet established themselves as great legal minds during their tenure on the Supreme Court. Some of them are, as follows: - Justice William Rehnquist, the former Chief Justice who was initially appointed by Nixon and then elevated to Chief by Reagan after the resignation of Warren Burger. - Lewis F. Powell Jr. - Earl Warren - William O. Douglas - Felix Frankfurter - Louis Brandeis - Hugo Black Of the 111 justices in the nation's history, 40 came from non-judicial backgrounds, according to Findlaw.com. "Three of the most famous justices of the 20th century (Felix Frankfurter, Louis Brandeis and Earl Warren) were not judges before they became justices," noted Supreme Court historian Peter Hoffer, a professor at the University of Georgia. http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/10/1937496/supreme-court-nominees-record.h tml Qualifications not being a relevant issue (or requirement), that leaves only the claim as to experience. Her extensive career in various facets of the legal world, including her role as the Solicitor General (basically the lawyer of the Supreme Court), indicates she's definitely experienced enough to be a justice. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan's opposition to federal law in the Defense of Marriage Act is > a 'gift to the gay-marriage movement...helping knock out a leg from > under the opposition to gay marriage.' ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Please cite your sources for this statement. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan wrote a memo while clerking for the late Supreme Court Justice > Thurgood Marshall that said religious organizations that provide > care for teen pregnancies shouldn't get federal funds because of a > strict line separating church and state. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Writing memos when you clerk for someone isn't about stating your own position, but channeling the Justice you've been assigned to clerk for. She stated the difference between what she wrote and what her actual position is, as I stated above. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan is a pro-abortion proverbial bomb-thrower, who will rule as a > pro-homosexual, anti-Christian activist, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Gotta end an emotional tone, right, even if there's little merit to the claims? Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 11 12:29:42 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:29:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> References: <817612.58809.qm@web38001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E181F957@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> On the matter of Kagan not being a judge prior to being nominated, we should keep in mind that the Senate Republicans killed her nomination to a judgeship in 1999: "On June 17, 1999, President Clinton nominated Kagan to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, to replace James L. Buckley, who had taken senior status in 1996. The Senate Judiciary Committee's Republican chairman Orrin Hatch scheduled no hearing, effectively ending her nomination. When Clinton's term ended, her nomination to the D.C. Circuit Court lapsed, as did the nomination of fellow Clinton nominee Allen Snyder.[13] In 2001, President George W. Bush nominated John G. Roberts to the seat to which Kagan had been nominated; Roberts was confirmed in 2003, and was elevated to the Supreme Court in 2005 upon his confirmation as Chief Justice of the United States" (Wikipedia). How ironic...on at least three levels: a Republican Senator kills her nomination in 1999...the person who does get that position is now on the Supreme Court...and now she's accused (by Rs and their media pundits) of not having judicial experience. Absolutely brilliant "thinking." --Mike From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 11 12:32:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:32:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> Message-ID: <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> This is the way we get past the flak to the truth. I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And right Jeff. Getting past the pure emotion into objectivity I think good. Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution agenda. I hope not, but we shall see, don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:10:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly > > CBS news has reported Elena Kagan is privately a closet lesbian, but > regardless of her private sex life, her public views of the law > opposing traditional values are far outside the mainstream. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Who cares what her sexual orientation is. For the record, you've mischaracterized the situation regarding CBS news. The "report" was an op-ed piece by a guy named Ben Domenech that they received permission to reprint. It wasn't a news piece. It was an blog-published opinion piece. Further, it was an opinion piece based on rumors and the original author retracted his statements and offered an apology. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-domenech/the-white-house-elena-kag_b_54063 3.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Elena Kagan wrote against religious organizations, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I'm guessing you're referring to a memo she wrote while clerking for Justice Marshall in which she opined that religious organizations should not be granted federal funding for providing sexual health, abortions, etc. However, during her Solicitor General confirmation hearing, she stated: "I indeed believe that my 22-year-old analysis, written for Justice Marshall, was deeply mistaken. It seems now utterly wrong to me to say that religious organizations generally should be precluded from receiving funds for providing the kinds of services contemplated by the Adolescent Family Life Act. I instead agree with the Bowen Court's statement that '[t]he facially neutral projects authorized by the AFLA-including pregnancy testing, adoption counseling and referral services, prenatal and postnatal care, educational services, residential care, child care, consumer education, etc. are not themselves "specifically religious activities," and they are not converted into such activities by the fact that they are carried out by organizations with religious affiliations.' As that Court recognized, the use of a grant in a particular way by a particular religious organization might constitute a violation of the Establishment Clause - for example, if the organization used the grant to fund what the Court called 'specifically religious activity.' But I think it incorrect (or, as I more colorfully said at the hearing, 'the dumbest thing I ever heard') essentially to presume that a religious organization will use a grant of this kind in an impermissible manner." If that's *not* what you're referring to, please cite the specifics. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] defended homosexual marriage, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< During her Solicitor General confirmation hearing she was asked: "Do you believe that there is a federal constitutional right to samesex marriage?" She responded: "There is no federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage." I'm not sure how you can say she's defending homosexual marriage. If anything, she demonstrates a very intelligent understanding of the Constitution and how the question asked applies to the Constitution. Here's a better analysis of the issues surrounding that statement. http://www.towleroad.com/2010/05/kagan-there-is-no-federal-constitutional-ri ght-to-samesex-marriage.html ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] and kicked the military off campus because they enforced the > "don't ask, don't tell" law, a move so extremist Kagan was overruled > 9-0 by the Supreme Court. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Being overruled by the Supreme Court doesn't mean her views were extremist. It means there wasn't sufficient legal justification for her position. It's also important to note that she wasn't the primary member of the case, but one of many schools that opposed the Solomon Amendment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Amendment Further, she barred military recruiters from the campus because the military discriminates against individuals based on sexual orientation, a specific policy requirement by Association of American Law Schools, of which Harvard is a member. This wasn't just her own personal position she was pushing. When the case was decided by the Supreme Court, she allowed them on campus (in keeping with the law), but encouraged those against "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" to protest visibly it. For those interested, here's the opinion from the SCOTUS on the case: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1152.pdf Worse, upon following the law, she's then been characterized as a prostitute by Ed Whelan, a member of the right opposition to her. "But, as George Bernard Shaw would have said to Kagan for selling out her supposedly deeply held principles, 'We've already established what you are, ma'am. Now we're just haggling over the price.'" http://mediamatters.org/press/releases/201005090009 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Elena Kagan has never served as a Judge and is neither qualified nor > experienced. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< First and foremost: "Because the Constitution does not set any qualifications for service as a Justice, the President may nominate anyone to serve." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States#Appointment_ and_confirmation Some far more experienced and qualified than you or the individual that wrote the bit you copy-and-pasted this from actually think not being a judge is a plus, not a minus. From Abner Mikva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_J._Mikva "First, Ms. Kagan, the solicitor general, has an unusual vantage since, unlike everyone else now on the Supreme Court, she's never been a judge. 'It's good to have someone like that,' Mr. Mikva said. 'Being a judge narrows your vision too much. All you talk to are other judges. It's like being in Washington too long.' Some of the nation's best justices - including Louis Brandeis, Hugo Black and Earl Warren -never had experience on the bench before going to the top court, Mr. Mikva said." http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/blogs/hinz.pl?plckController=Blog&plc kScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPost Id=Blog%3A1daca073-2eab-468e-9f19-ec177090a35cPost%3Acf97d174-0212-488a-9153 -b09a1e0c9fe7&sid=sitelife.chicagobusiness.com Further, it is not a requirement to serve as a judge to be a justice. There have been other justices that never served as judges, yet established themselves as great legal minds during their tenure on the Supreme Court. Some of them are, as follows: - Justice William Rehnquist, the former Chief Justice who was initially appointed by Nixon and then elevated to Chief by Reagan after the resignation of Warren Burger. - Lewis F. Powell Jr. - Earl Warren - William O. Douglas - Felix Frankfurter - Louis Brandeis - Hugo Black Of the 111 justices in the nation's history, 40 came from non-judicial backgrounds, according to Findlaw.com. "Three of the most famous justices of the 20th century (Felix Frankfurter, Louis Brandeis and Earl Warren) were not judges before they became justices," noted Supreme Court historian Peter Hoffer, a professor at the University of Georgia. http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/10/1937496/supreme-court-nominees-record.h tml Qualifications not being a relevant issue (or requirement), that leaves only the claim as to experience. Her extensive career in various facets of the legal world, including her role as the Solicitor General (basically the lawyer of the Supreme Court), indicates she's definitely experienced enough to be a justice. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan's opposition to federal law in the Defense of Marriage Act is > a 'gift to the gay-marriage movement...helping knock out a leg from > under the opposition to gay marriage.' ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Please cite your sources for this statement. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan wrote a memo while clerking for the late Supreme Court Justice > Thurgood Marshall that said religious organizations that provide > care for teen pregnancies shouldn't get federal funds because of a > strict line separating church and state. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Writing memos when you clerk for someone isn't about stating your own position, but channeling the Justice you've been assigned to clerk for. She stated the difference between what she wrote and what her actual position is, as I stated above. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Kagan is a pro-abortion proverbial bomb-thrower, who will rule as a > pro-homosexual, anti-Christian activist, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Gotta end an emotional tone, right, even if there's little merit to the claims? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue May 11 12:36:27 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:36:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E181F998@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Why would a constitutional law professor be anti-constitution? What are your credentials, vis-?-vis that law professor's credentials, that make you qualified to indulge in this kind of a charge? How many constitutional law classes have you taken? What law school did you go to? Inquiring minds want to know. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:32 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com Cc: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court This is the way we get past the flak to the truth. I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And right Jeff. Getting past the pure emotion into objectivity I think good. Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution agenda. I hope not, but we shall see, don From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 11 12:40:58 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E181F998@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <654200803.18069351273606858229.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If a person walked into a bank and robbed it, a reasonable person would observe that the person is a bank robber. There is no need to attend law school to make such a conclusion. The constitution is being stomped on before our eyes, Get it? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:36:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Why would a constitutional law professor be anti-constitution? What are your credentials, vis-?-vis that law professor's credentials, that make you qualified to indulge in this kind of a charge? How many constitutional law classes have you taken? What law school did you go to? Inquiring minds want to know. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:32 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com Cc: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court This is the way we get past the flak to the truth. I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And right Jeff. Getting past the pure emotion into objectivity I think good. Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution agenda. I hope not, but we shall see, don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 11 12:44:27 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:44:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <000a01caf13d$b66c4b50$2344e1f0$@com> <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <002701caf142$6238b6e0$26aa24a0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she > supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< This is an issue I'm particularly interested in and haven't yet researched. Care to share your sources? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution > agenda. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< And in only a few sentences, we've death-spiraled back from truth into the mire of flak. Your position on him being anti-Constitution is tiring and baseless. Seriously, give it a rest. Jeff From edavie at verizon.net Tue May 11 12:50:21 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:50:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <788766213.18064961273606335115.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <76AA0513F294433CA4ADEE46A8E9BF33@EdDaviePC> What, exactly is this "Anti-constitution" agenda? Some documentation, please. Ed From: donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:32 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com Cc: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court This is the way we get past the flak to the truth. I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And right Jeff. Getting past the pure emotion into objectivity I think good. Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution agenda. I hope not, but we shall see, don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:10:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Don, From edavie at verizon.net Tue May 11 12:51:18 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <654200803.18069351273606858229.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <654200803.18069351273606858229.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <297F110DA26F4BA199D49FD08EAC0EC8@EdDaviePC> Not that I can determine! Ed From: donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:40 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court If a person walked into a bank and robbed it, a reasonable person would observe that the person is a bank robber. There is no need to attend law school to make such a conclusion. The constitution is being stomped on before our eyes, Get it? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Steele To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 11 May 2010 19:36:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Why would a constitutional law professor be anti-constitution? What are your credentials, vis-?-vis that law professor's credentials, that make you qualified to indulge in this kind of a charge? How many constitutional law classes have you taken? What law school did you go to? Inquiring minds want to know. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 12:32 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com Cc: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court This is the way we get past the flak to the truth. I just learned what I believe is a plus for her. It is said she supports the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And right Jeff. Getting past the pure emotion into objectivity I think good. Aparently the president feels she will support his anti-constitution agenda. I hope not, but we shall see, don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue May 11 13:26:35 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:26:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4DBB3742-C555-4F66-8568-E644FE488D79@teleport.com> Oooo-kay, shall we instead elect another reactionary conservative, who will "legislate from the bench" to drive the country back to the 1850s? On May 11, 2010, at 8:49 AM, donkelly wrote: > What do you all think about the recent crop of nominees to the > supreme court? > ============= > > CBS news has reported Elena Kagan is privately a closet lesbian, > but regardless of her private sex life, her public views of the law > opposing traditional values are far outside the mainstream. > > Elena Kagan wrote against religious organizations, defended > homosexual marriage, and kicked the military off campus because > they enforced the "don't ask, don't tell" law, a move so extremist > Kagan was overruled 9-0 by the Supreme Court. > > Elena Kagan has never served as a Judge and is neither qualified > nor experienced. PLEASE VOTE NO AND FILIBUSTER KAGAN. > > Kagan's opposition to federal law in the Defense of Marriage Act is > a 'gift to the gay-marriage movement...helping knock out a leg from > under the opposition to gay marriage.' > > Kagan wrote a memo while clerking for the late Supreme Court > Justice Thurgood Marshall that said religious organizations that > provide care for teen pregnancies shouldn't get federal funds > because of a strict line separating church and state. > > Kagan is a pro-abortion proverbial bomb-thrower, who will rule as a > pro-homosexual, anti-Christian activist, and she must be > filibustered if nominated. > ============== > > Personally I strongly believe that a nominee to our highest court > should at a minimum have served as a Federal judge at some level, > and should not enter the position with pre concieved notions of > morality, or lack of same. > > don > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue May 11 14:30:18 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Geologist booked for library program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <136661.35103.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Your request to have James Roddey, of the OR State Dept of Geology, discuss? the possibility of a massive earthquake in Portland's future is booked at the library for early 2011 as part of the Friends of the Fg Library cultural program series.?Here is the link for the story which generated the request: http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS ? Alana? P.S.? THE FG Library BOOK SALE is Mon. 5/17 - Sat. 5/22 - same hours as the library is open except for the Sat when it ends at 3 PM ? From oldredwagon at verizon.net Tue May 11 15:08:04 2010 From: oldredwagon at verizon.net (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:08:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Geologist booked for library program In-Reply-To: <136661.35103.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <136661.35103.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2EA5AEBE081D4717A5FC374FC8CFA6DD@JeffVAIO> Thanks Alana - I'll look forward to attending this program! -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alana Graham" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:30 PM To: Subject: [Grovenet] Geologist booked for library program > Your request to have James Roddey, of the OR State Dept of Geology, > discuss the possibility of a massive earthquake in Portland's future is > booked at the library for early 2011 as part of the Friends of the Fg > Library cultural program series. Here is the link for the story which > generated the request: > > http://wweek.com/editorial/3612/13620/SOURCE=RSS > > Alana P.S. THE FG Library BOOK SALE is Mon. 5/17 - Sat. 5/22 - same > hours as the library is open except for the Sat when it ends at 3 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From rab at jurislex.com Tue May 11 15:41:15 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:41:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] REPORT: Kagan's legal experience comparable to Rehnquist, Thomas, Roberts Message-ID: <4BE9DD0B.9010109@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100511/1714bc69/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue May 11 16:19:46 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:19:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court Message-ID: <005401caf160$8213ca90$863b5fb0$@com> Panel savages Bay Buchanan's claim that Obama "dummied down" Supreme Court with Sotomayor and Kagan nominations http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005110005 My absolute favorite comment is regarding Bay Buchanan's use of the phrase "dummied down": "she's dumbed down 'dumbed down' for the dumbed down" Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue May 11 23:02:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:02:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <005401caf160$8213ca90$863b5fb0$@com> Message-ID: <1420621208.18311831273644148420.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> That's really,really, dumbed down Jeff. Doesn't our laderhave any smarter people to slelct? That Sotomayor appears to be an emotionless lump on the court. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:19:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court Panel savages Bay Buchanan's claim that Obama "dummied down" Supreme Court with Sotomayor and Kagan nominations http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005110005 My absolute favorite comment is regarding Bay Buchanan's use of the phrase "dummied down": "she's dumbed down 'dumbed down' for the dumbed down" Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed May 12 00:17:54 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:17:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <1420621208.18311831273644148420.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1420621208.18311831273644148420.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <7A86AEC9-FC5F-4626-A78F-531A884F66F3@verizon.net> Perhaps you would do well to check the names of the Supreme Court Justices. Justice Thomas is the quiet one who says nothing. Justice Sotomayor is the one who has been asking questions. When she was being considered, you opposed the concept that a "wise Latina" would make better judgements, and now you are disappointed that she isn't jumping up and down during the hearings? But all of that is okay. Everyone has figured out that you cannot say a positive thing about the President, the administration or anything associated with it. And we recognize that when the truth doesn't provide you with something to complain about, you will start repeating lies. There may be better qualified jurists, but they may also be "smart enough" to avoid the slurs, slander and lies of ignorant people by staying away from the Conservative "No" brains. What do you think? David On May 11, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > That's really,really, dumbed down Jeff. Doesn't our laderhave any smarter people to slelct? That Sotomayor appears to be an emotionless lump on the court. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Wed May 12 00:23:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:23:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <297F110DA26F4BA199D49FD08EAC0EC8@EdDaviePC> References: <654200803.18069351273606858229.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <297F110DA26F4BA199D49FD08EAC0EC8@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <9E45CCD5-85B6-442B-8A54-74485701B033@verizon.net> Absolutely correct, and the sooner we get back to the Constitutional protection for speedy trial, trail by jury of peers, ability to meet accusers, search warrants issued by a judge for probable cause, access to qualified counsel, and rule of law the better I will like it. These Supreme Court Justices that can't tell the difference between a corporation and real person, need to get out from behind the bench and find out what is going on in the real world. David > If a person walked into a bank and robbed it, a reasonable person would observe that the person is a bank robber. There is no need to attend law school to make such a conclusion. The constitution is being stomped on before our eyes, Get it? > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Wed May 12 00:28:35 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:28:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: You are kidding me, right? You don't subscribe to the litmus test of the Conservatives? You don't believe that any candidate for the Supreme Court should bring in moral outrage over abortions and homosexual behavior? David On May 11, 2010, at 8:49 AM, donkelly wrote: > ... > Personally I strongly believe that a nominee to our highest court should at a minimum have served as a Federal judge at some level, and should not enter the position with pre concieved notions of morality, or lack of same. > > don From jo.david at verizon.net Wed May 12 00:31:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:31:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <4BE982FE.7000500@gmail.com> References: <59020122.17949961273592946593.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4BE982FE.7000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94E6A434-7051-4F77-A18A-7F749C23CEF1@verizon.net> Much too reasonable. David On May 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > ... Personally I am more interested in her positions on the constitution and the bill of rights. Why is this not being discussed? If this was all I had to go on then I wouldn't be concerned about her getting the nomination. > > Adam From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 12 01:07:22 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 01:07:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <1420621208.18311831273644148420.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <005401caf160$8213ca90$863b5fb0$@com> <1420621208.18311831273644148420.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <007001caf1aa$2a11e2b0$7e35a810$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > [...] Doesn't our laderhave any smarter people to slelct? [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Our laderhas slelcted (sic) someone that by many accounts from both sides of the aisle is one of the most brilliant legal minds in the country. http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/65545 "President Barack Obama has chosen a brilliant legal scholar with liberal views and conservative friends." http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=7541402 "Kagan, 50, is considered one of the finest legal scholars in the country, dazzling both fellow liberal and conservative friends with her intellectual and analytical prowess but also her ability to find consensus among ideological opposites." http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005090014 Fox News via Media Matters "Because She?s Had a Very Distinguished Career. No One Would Argue Anything But That She is a Brilliant Individual ? She?s Got a Fantastic Resume. And She Is Known as Being a Consensus-Builder." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2010-05-09-kagan_N.htm "A Highly Credentialed Lawyer" "Had a Reputation for Bringing Together Ideological Factions." http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-12/hatch-conservative-groups-say-kagan-probably-will-be-confirmed.html "she?s an intelligent woman,? [Senator Orrin] Hatch[, a Utah Republican,] said in an interview." ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] That Sotomayor appears to be an emotionless lump on the court. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I think I'd like for her to just sit, watch, and learn for a little bit before wading in on cases the SCOTUS is presiding over. It should be noted that in the recent "corporate personhood" debacle that came out of the SCOTUS earlier this year, Sotomayor was a dissenter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission#Dissents Strong, intelligent women in positions of authority will always be misunderstood and inaccurately characterized, often to the extreme negative traits of their male counterparts. Jeff From adamsmayer at gmail.com Wed May 12 06:06:45 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:06:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] [Fwd: Why Women Must Vote [interesting history] Message-ID: <4BEAA7E5.7040306@gmail.com> A reminder to _everyone_ that the election is less than a week away. Get your ballots in if you haven't already. Adam ----- Forwarded Message ---- ** /*Subject:*/ Why Women Must Vote- interesting history This is the story of our Mothers and Grandmothers who lived only 90 years ago. cid:003201c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 Remember, it was not until 1920 That women were granted the right to go to the polls and vote. cid:003401c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 The women were innocent and defenseless, but they were jailed Nonetheless for picketing the White House, carrying signs asking For the vote. cid:003601c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 And by the end of the night, they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their warden's blessing Went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly convicted of 'obstructing sidewalk traffic.' (Lucy Burns) They beat Lucy Burns, chained her hands to the cell bars above Her head and left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping For air. cid:003801c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 (Dora Lewis) They hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her Head against an iron bed and knocked her out cold. Her cellmate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe the guards grabbing, dragging, Beating, choking, slamming, pinching, twisting and kicking the women. Thus unfolded the 'Night of Terror' on Nov. 15, 1917, When the warden at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his Guards to teach a lesson to the suffragists imprisoned there because They dared to picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right To vote. For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their Food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. cid:003a01c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 (Alice Paul) When one of the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks Until word was smuggled out to the press. _http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/suffrage/nwp/prisoners.pdf_ So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because- -why, exactly? We have carpool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote doesn't matter? It's raining? http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147002r.jpg (Mrs. Pauline Adams in the prison garb she wore while serving a sixty-day sentence.) Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new Movie 'Iron Jawed Angels.' It is a graphic depiction of the battle These women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling Booth and have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147004r.jpg (Miss Edith Ainge, of Jamestown , New York ) All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the Actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote. Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege. Sometimes it was inconvenient. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147007r.jpg (Berthe Arnold, CSU graduate) My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, Saw the HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk About it, she looked angry. She was--with herself. 'One thought Kept coming back to me as I watched that movie,' she said. 'What would those women think of the way I use, or don't use, My right to vote? All of us take it for granted now, not just Younger women, but those of us who did seek to learn.' The Right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her 'all over again.' HBO released the movie on video and DVD . I wish all history, Social studies and government teachers would include the movie in Their curriculum I want it shown on Bunco night, too, and anywhere Else women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, But we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think A little shock therapy is in order. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/160/160067r.jpg (Conferring over ratification [of the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution] at [National Woman's Party] headquarters, Jackson Pl [ace] [ Washington , D.C. ]. L-R Mrs. Lawrence Lewis, Mrs. Abby Scott Baker, Anita Pollitzer, Alice Paul, Florence Boeckel, Mabel Vernon (standing, right)) It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make her crazy. The doctor admonished the men: 'Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity.' Please, if you are so inclined, pass this on to all the women you know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought so hard for by these very courageous women. Whether you vote democratic, republican or independent party - remember to vote. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/275/275034r.jpg (Helena Hill Weed, Norwalk , Conn. Serving 3 day sentence in D.C. prison for carrying banner, 'Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.') History is being made. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 07:50:47 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:50:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <007001caf1aa$2a11e2b0$7e35a810$@com> Message-ID: <1597553119.18399231273675847133.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Thank you Jeff. I found a citation today on Wikipedia about property rights under the constitution. I know the Wik should not be considered the final authority on any subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property#Whether_and_to_what_extent_the_State_may_interfere_with_property It leads into a discussion of Kleptocracy type of government (governed by thieves) which seems related to some of the things the government is doing under the radar. Thank you for the thoughtfull summary below. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 08:07:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > [...] Doesn't our laderhave any smarter people to slelct? [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Our laderhas slelcted (sic) someone that by many accounts from both sides of the aisle is one of the most brilliant legal minds in the country. http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/65545 "President Barack Obama has chosen a brilliant legal scholar with liberal views and conservative friends." http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=7541402 "Kagan, 50, is considered one of the finest legal scholars in the country, dazzling both fellow liberal and conservative friends with her intellectual and analytical prowess but also her ability to find consensus among ideological opposites." http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201005090014 Fox News via Media Matters "Because She?s Had a Very Distinguished Career. No One Would Argue Anything But That She is a Brilliant Individual ? She?s Got a Fantastic Resume. And She Is Known as Being a Consensus-Builder." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2010-05-09-kagan_N.htm "A Highly Credentialed Lawyer" "Had a Reputation for Bringing Together Ideological Factions." http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-12/hatch-conservative-groups-say-kagan-probably-will-be-confirmed.html "she?s an intelligent woman,? [Senator Orrin] Hatch[, a Utah Republican,] said in an interview." ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > [...] That Sotomayor appears to be an emotionless lump on the court. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< I think I'd like for her to just sit, watch, and learn for a little bit before wading in on cases the SCOTUS is presiding over. It should be noted that in the recent "corporate personhood" debacle that came out of the SCOTUS earlier this year, Sotomayor was a dissenter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission#Dissents Strong, intelligent women in positions of authority will always be misunderstood and inaccurately characterized, often to the extreme negative traits of their male counterparts. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 09:17:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:17:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] [Fwd: Why Women Must Vote [interesting history] In-Reply-To: <4BEAA7E5.7040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1483110474.18445431273681031525.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Thank you Adam. Your research points out facts told me by my mother who voted the first time she could. It focuses once again on a government that not always serves the people, and it focuses on the necessity that our grandmothers, mothers, sisters and wives, take the vote seariously. The vote was gained through bloodshed and is now more than ever before, for women to take their opinions to the voting booth. don The Foundation: Quote of the day "Judges should be always men of learning and experience in the laws, of exemplary morals, great patience, calmness, coolness, and attention. Their minds should not be distracted with jarring interests; they should not be dependent upon any man, or body of men." --John Adams John Adams may have been sexist, I don't know, but apparently the trend of his day was that government and courts be run by men. d ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] [Fwd: Why Women Must Vote [interesting history] A reminder to _everyone_ that the election is less than a week away. Get your ballots in if you haven't already. Adam ----- Forwarded Message ---- ** /*Subject:*/ Why Women Must Vote- interesting history This is the story of our Mothers and Grandmothers who lived only 90 years ago. cid:003201c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 Remember, it was not until 1920 That women were granted the right to go to the polls and vote. cid:003401c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 The women were innocent and defenseless, but they were jailed Nonetheless for picketing the White House, carrying signs asking For the vote. cid:003601c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 And by the end of the night, they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their warden's blessing Went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly convicted of 'obstructing sidewalk traffic.' (Lucy Burns) They beat Lucy Burns, chained her hands to the cell bars above Her head and left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping For air. cid:003801c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 (Dora Lewis) They hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her Head against an iron bed and knocked her out cold. Her cellmate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe the guards grabbing, dragging, Beating, choking, slamming, pinching, twisting and kicking the women. Thus unfolded the 'Night of Terror' on Nov. 15, 1917, When the warden at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his Guards to teach a lesson to the suffragists imprisoned there because They dared to picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right To vote. For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their Food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. cid:003a01c90660$0d5d86b0$6402a8c0 at YOUR4CFD40D048 (Alice Paul) When one of the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks Until word was smuggled out to the press. _http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/suffrage/nwp/prisoners.pdf_ So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because- -why, exactly? We have carpool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote doesn't matter? It's raining? http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147002r.jpg (Mrs. Pauline Adams in the prison garb she wore while serving a sixty-day sentence.) Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new Movie 'Iron Jawed Angels.' It is a graphic depiction of the battle These women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling Booth and have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147004r.jpg (Miss Edith Ainge, of Jamestown , New York ) All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the Actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote. Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege. Sometimes it was inconvenient. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/147/147007r.jpg (Berthe Arnold, CSU graduate) My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, Saw the HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk About it, she looked angry. She was--with herself. 'One thought Kept coming back to me as I watched that movie,' she said. 'What would those women think of the way I use, or don't use, My right to vote? All of us take it for granted now, not just Younger women, but those of us who did seek to learn.' The Right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her 'all over again.' HBO released the movie on video and DVD . I wish all history, Social studies and government teachers would include the movie in Their curriculum I want it shown on Bunco night, too, and anywhere Else women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, But we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think A little shock therapy is in order. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/160/160067r.jpg (Conferring over ratification [of the 19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution] at [National Woman's Party] headquarters, Jackson Pl [ace] [ Washington , D.C. ]. L-R Mrs. Lawrence Lewis, Mrs. Abby Scott Baker, Anita Pollitzer, Alice Paul, Florence Boeckel, Mabel Vernon (standing, right)) It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make her crazy. The doctor admonished the men: 'Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity.' Please, if you are so inclined, pass this on to all the women you know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought so hard for by these very courageous women. Whether you vote democratic, republican or independent party - remember to vote. http://memory.loc.gov/service/mss/mnwp/275/275034r.jpg (Helena Hill Weed, Norwalk , Conn. Serving 3 day sentence in D.C. prison for carrying banner, 'Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed.') History is being made. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 10:22:08 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:22:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <94E6A434-7051-4F77-A18A-7F749C23CEF1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <538939254.18481011273684928216.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I am with some of you on this one, as a judge or lawyer, what are her viewpoints on the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I would welcome participation in that question. Trying to learn the answers, the paper trail so far has not disclosed her viewpoint, but rest assured, the president knows, and I'll bet the congress finds out. Confirmation may not be as cut and dried over this question. don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 07:31:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Much too reasonable. David On May 11, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > ... Personally I am more interested in her positions on the constitution and the bill of rights. Why is this not being discussed? If this was all I had to go on then I wouldn't be concerned about her getting the nomination. > > Adam _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 10:38:16 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:38:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <9E45CCD5-85B6-442B-8A54-74485701B033@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2097328436.18489081273685896801.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> PS: Thanks David. And for those who seek legal authority, I do have legal training and a very good record of winning cases, In the supreme courts of the states of California and Alaska and in varouus municipal courts in both states. I hold a mini law degree, but am not a lawyer. Big deal? NOT. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 07:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Nominees To The Supreme Court Absolutely correct, and the sooner we get back to the Constitutional protection for speedy trial, trail by jury of peers, ability to meet accusers, search warrants issued by a judge for probable cause, access to qualified counsel, and rule of law the better I will like it. These Supreme Court Justices that can't tell the difference between a corporation and real person, need to get out from behind the bench and find out what is going on in the real world. David > If a person walked into a bank and robbed it, a reasonable person would observe that the person is a bank robber. There is no need to attend law school to make such a conclusion. The constitution is being stomped on before our eyes, Get it? > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 10:48:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:48:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court In-Reply-To: <7A86AEC9-FC5F-4626-A78F-531A884F66F3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1242724270.18494801273686531329.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Not lies, but news that could be lies. Granted. For those who have time to view them, six videos. http://www.the912project.us/forum/topics/mccains-vomitinducing?commentId=2881797%3AComment%3A766555&xg_source=msg_com_forum How bad are things anyway? You all be the judge. PS: Sotomayer could have objected when the president accused the court of doing something they didn't do. He clearly lied. Is he exempt from criticism for lieing? If so, why? Isn't he supposed to be an example of honesty and integrity? don ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 07:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Obama Nominations are simultaneously elitists *and* "dummying down" the Supreme Court Perhaps you would do well to check the names of the Supreme Court Justices. Justice Thomas is the quiet one who says nothing. Justice Sotomayor is the one who has been asking questions. When she was being considered, you opposed the concept that a "wise Latina" would make better judgements, and now you are disappointed that she isn't jumping up and down during the hearings? But all of that is okay. Everyone has figured out that you cannot say a positive thing about the President, the administration or anything associated with it. And we recognize that when the truth doesn't provide you with something to complain about, you will start repeating lies. There may be better qualified jurists, but they may also be "smart enough" to avoid the slurs, slander and lies of ignorant people by staying away from the Conservative "No" brains. What do you think? David On May 11, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > That's really,really, dumbed down Jeff. Doesn't our laderhave any smarter people to slelct? That Sotomayor appears to be an emotionless lump on the court. > > don _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 11:57:51 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:57:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <136661.35103.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <959501751.18533081273690671494.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Is this report another lie? I am unable to verify, but it has a slight ring of truth to it. More legal manipulation to avoid telling the truth? Or is it mere coincidence? http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=7775 don From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 12 13:24:04 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:24:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <959501751.18533081273690671494.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <136661.35103.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <959501751.18533081273690671494.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <008501caf211$129438b0$37bcaa10$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > Is this report another lie? > > http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=7775 Considering the source, I'd say it's quite suspect. "Founded in 1991 by Joseph Farah (the brains behind WorldNetDaily.com website)" http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2 > I am unable to verify, but it has a slight ring of > truth to it. Propaganda and conspiracy theories all rely on there being a small percentage of truth; a sauce or seasoning that's particularly palatable to get you to swallow the rotten meat they want you to ingest. > More legal manipulation to avoid telling the truth? Or much ado about nothing. If it was not nothing, wouldn't it be easier to just not disclose it for others to then form all manner of opinion, from the sublime to the ridiculous, about the nature of it? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 13:29:33 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:29:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <008501caf211$129438b0$37bcaa10$@com> Message-ID: <784133385.18579261273696173114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Did Obama or did he not waive ethics rules for eligibility lawyer? That was the question. Did he or did he not waive the ethics rulefor his lawyer? don ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Howden To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:24:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Government Lies Don, > From: donkelly > > Is this report another lie? > > http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=7775 Considering the source, I'd say it's quite suspect. "Founded in 1991 by Joseph Farah (the brains behind WorldNetDaily.com website)" http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2 > I am unable to verify, but it has a slight ring of > truth to it. Propaganda and conspiracy theories all rely on there being a small percentage of truth; a sauce or seasoning that's particularly palatable to get you to swallow the rotten meat they want you to ingest. > More legal manipulation to avoid telling the truth? Or much ado about nothing. If it was not nothing, wouldn't it be easier to just not disclose it for others to then form all manner of opinion, from the sublime to the ridiculous, about the nature of it? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed May 12 13:49:41 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:49:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <784133385.18579261273696173114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <008501caf211$129438b0$37bcaa10$@com> <784133385.18579261273696173114.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <008b01caf214$a6036af0$f20a40d0$@com> Don, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Did Obama or did he not waive ethics rules for eligibility lawyer? > > That was the question. Did he or did he not waive the ethics > rulefor his lawyer? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< There was a limited waiver granted, yes. That's obvious from the executive order that's publicly available from the WH. http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/bauer_ltd_pledge_waiver.pdf However, in reading the waiver in full, I don't see how it matters. It seems to be nothing more than dealing with aspects of the original "Ethics Commitments by Executive Branch Personnel" executive order that didn't anticipate this sort of situation. It's the sort of thing that the exceptions portion of that original ethics executive order were created to deal with. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/96755-white-house-counsel-bauer-granted-limited-waiver-of-ethics-rules http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/36950.html You wave about birther "eligibility lawyer" nonsense as if that makes this waiver somehow part of a conspiracy or cover-up. Is it not conceivable that while dealing with the numerous, ridiculous birther claims and frivolous lawsuits, that Perkins Coie and Bauer would also represent their client in other legal matters the client had? Again, I think this is much ado about nothing. Jeff From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 12 13:57:59 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:57:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Gravity revealed to be a fake . . . Message-ID: <4BEB1657.4020201@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100512/4468e064/attachment.html From obrzl at verizon.net Wed May 12 14:06:34 2010 From: obrzl at verizon.net (obrzl at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:06:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies Message-ID: <1587426647.289121.1273698394797.JavaMail.root@vms170055> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100512/11b8a208/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed May 12 14:12:30 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:12:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <1587426647.289121.1273698394797.JavaMail.root@vms170055> References: <1587426647.289121.1273698394797.JavaMail.root@vms170055> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E18D1904@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Mark, Mark, Mark...tsk, tsk, tsk....you're spoiling the tea party!! --Mike ________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of obrzl at verizon.net Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 2:07 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Government Lies I'm absolutely certain the government is always lying to us because I know for sure that people like Ron Wyden, Al Gore, Madeline Albright, Hillary and Bill Clinton, and yes, Barak Obama, simply want to enslave all of us in their global Commie-Nazi conspiracy. I'm equally certain that people who are paid millions to tweak the news, find anecdotes to 'prove' generalities, to make us all believe that there is too much government regulation, that there are too many environmental, health, and safety protections, that working people, especially union members, are overpaid, that the wealthy don't get a fair deal and that if they just had more money they would create utopia for all of us, that we've got to love our country and its flag but simultaneously hate our government -and turn in anyone we suspect isn't as American as we are -that these folks who are paid millions to sell us these messages- are telling the absolute and obvious truth. They put the "paid" in "patriot." And so I'm absoultely convinced that Barak Obama is an illegal alien, a crook, a Commie, a Nazi, and a fanatic Muslim extremist terrorist. Thank you for continually bring these issues to my attention via grovenet; without your constant vigilance I might have slipped, I might have become ...one of.... one of them! Mark Oberzil May 12, 2010 01:59:24 PM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: >Is this report another lie? I am unable to verify, but it has a slight ring of truth >to it. > >More legal manipulation to avoid telling the truth? > >Or is it mere coincidence? > >http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=7775 > >don > > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet at rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Wed May 12 14:15:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:15:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Gravity revealed to be a fake . . . In-Reply-To: <4BEB1657.4020201@jurislex.com> References: <4BEB1657.4020201@jurislex.com> Message-ID: This is fun! On May 12, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's a really good one, and a couple of more - - - > > > http://tinyurl.com/33wzz6x > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at verizon.net Wed May 12 14:42:24 2010 From: allnutt at verizon.net (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:42:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fwd: Gravity revealed to be a fake . . . In-Reply-To: <4BEB1657.4020201@jurislex.com> References: <4BEB1657.4020201@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <0E5A693B-FB57-4B18-B15D-5B2B9BCE8147@verizon.net> Call World Net Daily! Gravity is a fake of the Obama administration and I've seen it on TV! He wants to take away our constitutional right to have balls roll down hill..... Katie A perfect blend of recent topics On May 12, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Bob Browning wrote: > Here's a really good one, and a couple of more - - - > > > http://tinyurl.com/33wzz6x > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dafracks at hotmail.com Wed May 12 14:54:39 2010 From: dafracks at hotmail.com (Tracy Irwin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:54:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Government Lies In-Reply-To: <1587426647.289121.1273698394797.JavaMail.root@vms170055> References: <1587426647.289121.1273698394797.JavaMail.root@vms170055> Message-ID: HAHAHAHA I love this Mark. Scuze my french, but where the hell does he find this sh*t? In the worst days of Bush/Cheney I never saw so much nonsense in my life. Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:06:34 -0500 From: obrzl at verizon.net To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Government Lies I'm absolutely certain the government is always lying to us because I know for sure that people like Ron Wyden, Al Gore, Madeline Albright, Hillary and Bill Clinton, and yes, Barak Obama, simply want to enslave all of us in their global Commie-Nazi conspiracy. I'm equally certain that people who are paid millions to tweak the news, find anecdotes to 'prove' generalities, to make us all believe that there is too much government regulation, that there are too many environmental, health, and safety protections, that working people, especially union members, are overpaid, that the wealthy don't get a fair deal and that if they just had more money they would create utopia for all of us, that we've got to love our country and its flag but simultaneously hate our government -and turn in anyone we suspect isn't as American as we are -that these folks who are paid millions to sell us these messages- are telling the absolute and obvious truth. They put the "paid" in "patriot." And so I'm absoultely convinced that Barak Obama is an illegal alien, a crook, a Commie, a Nazi, and a fanatic Muslim extremist terrorist. Thank you for continually bring these issues to my attention via grovenet; without your constant vigilance I might have slipped, I might have become ...one of.... one of them! Mark Oberzil May 12, 2010 01:59:24 PM, grovenet at rdrop.com wrote: >Is this report another lie? I am unable to verify, but it has a slight ring of truth >to it. > >More legal manipulation to avoid telling the truth? > >Or is it mere coincidence? > >http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=7775 > >don > > > >_______________________________________________ >GroveNet mailing list >GroveNet at rdrop.com >http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From rab at jurislex.com Wed May 12 14:57:24 2010 From: rab at jurislex.com (Bob Browning) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:57:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Maybe this is Don's and others' problem . . . Message-ID: <4BEB2444.7050509@jurislex.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100512/a83759bb/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed May 12 15:52:17 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 22:52:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Maybe this is Don's and others' problem . . . In-Reply-To: <4BEB2444.7050509@jurislex.com> Message-ID: <1185123659.18648021273704737704.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> No, mom always said I was two things, and optomist and a sceptic. As an adult I am both and that is the problem. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Browning To: Grovenet Sent: Wed, 12 May 2010 21:57:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] Maybe this is Don's and others' problem . . .
So, maybe there is scientific explanation for Rush, Glen Beck, etc.

"And, as everyone knows, strong emotions can make us nearly blind to certain facts. ­Breit­meyer concludes that 'to see in the fullest sense of the word, it is not enough to open your eyes; you also must come with an open mind'."

Maybe Don was neglected as a child ? ! ? !

bob "open eyes, open mind" browning

PS: But not so open that your brains fall out ! ! !
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Scientific American Mind -  May 12, 2010

MIND Reviews: Blindspots: The Many Ways We Cannot See

By Nicole Branan