From bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com Wed Sep 1 08:49:36 2010 From: bevwilson at prudhoebay.zzn.com (Beverly Wilson) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 08:49:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 69, Issue 26 Message-ID: <1EB05900CB522CA4F8FB6663AF0BAD7E@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100901/129a2c9f/attachment.html From khourym at verizon.net Wed Sep 1 09:53:20 2010 From: khourym at verizon.net (Martha Khoury) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:53:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Woodworking class Message-ID: My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, there's always a project. In between, picture frames. Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking equipment and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance around east side facing health center. For info: Higginbotham, Christopher [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us ] First 10 Weeks 1. Sept. 20 2. Sept. 27 3. Oct. 4 4. Oct. 11 5. Oct. 18 6. Oct. 25 7. Nov. 1 8. Nov. 8 9. Nov. 15 10. Nov. 22 Second 10 Weeks 1. Nov. 29 2. Dec. 2 3. Dec. 13 4. Jan. 3 5. Jan. 10 Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday 6. Jan. 24 7. Jan. 31 8. Feb. 7 9. Feb. 14 Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day 10. Feb. 28 Third 10 Weeks 1. Mar. 7 2. Mar. 14 Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break 3. Mar. 28 4. Apr. 4 5. Apr. 11 6. Apr. 18 7. Apr. 25 8. May 2 9. May 9 10. May 16 From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Sep 1 23:58:18 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 23:58:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 69, Issue 26 In-Reply-To: <1EB05900CB522CA4F8FB6663AF0BAD7E@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> References: <1EB05900CB522CA4F8FB6663AF0BAD7E@bevwilson.prudhoebay.zzn.com> Message-ID: I'll bite. What caused the Ice Ages? David On Sep 1, 2010, at 8:49 AM, Beverly Wilson wrote: > Good morning Grove Netters, Walt, Jeff and Don. > > ROFLOL, this is Classic Don, interested in all sciences. > > He drove the Earth Science and Astrology Professors at UAA bonkers with his theory on what caused ice ages on earth. > > Yet later they admitted that Don's theories did not contradict any scientific theories they knew of, so was worthy of further research. > > Has anyone figured out how Dry Water could be useful? > > Bev > > Thank you for joining our free email service! > Get your own email service at ZZN.COM. > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 08:44:21 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 08:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Women & Men: a workshop 9/24-9/25/10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <576662.15556.qm@web55606.mail.re4.yahoo.com> The Power of Reconciliatio n:? Between Women and Men The future of humanity will be decided not by relations between nations, but by relations between women and men. -- DH Lawrence Workshop sponsored by Pacific University?s Center for Gender Equity What is Gender Reconciliation? Both women and men are afflicted by gender disharmony, and each needs the other for a true and complete healing. The time has come for women and men to join together to confront and transform gender injustice. Gender Reconciliation synthesizes wisdom from the world's spiritual traditions to bring new dimensions of healing and reconciliation between the sexes. Gender Reconciliation creates a rare forum that builds trust and compassionate communication through a skillful combination of ???? interactive exercises ???? contemplative practices ???? group process and workshops ???? facilitator presentations. Where does it come from? Satyana Institute has developed Gender Reconciliation over the past 15 years. Satyana facilitators have presented workshops, retreats and trainings in the United States, South Africa, India, Canada, Croatia and Australia for organizations from parliaments, churches, prisons, community groups, and universities.? For more information about the workshop (pacificu.edu/cge) and the Satyana Institute see (http://www.satyana.org/) Details of the Workshop English Language Workshop Date:? September 24-25 Time:? 5:00 to 9:00 (24th) ??? ? 9:00 to 4:30 (25th) Place: Taylor Auditorium ??? ? Pacific University, 2043 College Way ? ? ?????? ? Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 ??? ? For directions www.pacificu.edu Spanish Language Workshop Date:? September 25-26 Time:? 7:00 to 9:00 (25th) ? ? ? ? ???9:00 to 3:00 (26th) Place:? Taylor Auditorium ? ? ? ? ???Pacific University, 2043 College Way ? ? ?????? ???Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 ??? ???For directions www.pacificu.edu Fees $50.00 single participant $75.00 couple Meals Included Scholarships Available ??? To Register:? pacificu.edu/cge Advance Registration due by Sept. 7? ??? For questions about Gender Reconciliation, scholarships, and childcare contact Dr. Martha Rampton at ramptonm at pacificu.edu Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ From allnutt at frontier.com Thu Sep 2 11:51:44 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 11:51:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Woodworking class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Women are welcome too. I did this for a semester and it was great! (Hope to get back again soon.) Katie On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no > experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, > there's always a project. In between, picture frames. > > > > Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule > > Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking equipment > and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all > levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. > > Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. > Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance > around east side facing health center. > > For info: Higginbotham, Christopher > [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us > ] > > First 10 Weeks > 1. Sept. 20 > > 2. Sept. 27 > > 3. Oct. 4 > > 4. Oct. 11 > > 5. Oct. 18 > > 6. Oct. 25 > > 7. Nov. 1 > > 8. Nov. 8 > > 9. Nov. 15 > > 10. Nov. 22 > > Second 10 Weeks > 1. Nov. 29 > > 2. Dec. 2 > > 3. Dec. 13 > > 4. Jan. 3 > > 5. Jan. 10 > > Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday > > 6. Jan. 24 > > 7. Jan. 31 > > 8. Feb. 7 > > 9. Feb. 14 > > Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day > > 10. Feb. 28 > > Third 10 Weeks > 1. Mar. 7 > > 2. Mar. 14 > > Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break > > 3. Mar. 28 > > 4. Apr. 4 > > 5. Apr. 11 > > 6. Apr. 18 > > 7. Apr. 25 > > 8. May 2 > > 9. May 9 > > 10. May 16 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 4 13:52:18 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back Message-ID: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Howdy everyone... Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so -: ..Have A Good Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/lostmind.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100904/fa4cc124/attachment.html From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 4 13:57:08 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 13:57:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <1D52C926-4415-4403-A353-5C4B61BBB8F5@frontier.com> Welcome back Alan! Katie On Sep 4, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Howdy everyone... > Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I > decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. > > Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so > > -: ..Have A Good Weekend.. :- > http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/lostmind.html > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 14:20:47 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:20:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <1D52C926-4415-4403-A353-5C4B61BBB8F5@frontier.com> References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1D52C926-4415-4403-A353-5C4B61BBB8F5@frontier.com> Message-ID: Hi, Alan! You have a good weekend, too! Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Katie Allnutt" Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:57 PM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm back > Welcome back Alan! > > Katie > > > On Sep 4, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> Howdy everyone... >> Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I >> decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. >> >> Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so >> >> -: ..Have A Good Weekend.. :- >> http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/lostmind.html >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 14:21:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:21:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C82B861.00003F.03612@DON-B2514E06367> Welcome back Hoss. We missed you. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/4/2010 1:52:40 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100904/fe8f3715/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Sat Sep 4 15:48:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 15:48:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <1D52C926-4415-4403-A353-5C4B61BBB8F5@frontier.com> Message-ID: Welcome back, Hoss! But I hope you don't get any rain totals to post for a while... summer has been too dang short! Walt On Sep 4, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Geri Steele wrote: > Hi, Alan! You have a good weekend, too! > > Geri > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Katie Allnutt" > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:57 PM > To: "Forest Grove local interests list" > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm back > >> Welcome back Alan! >> >> Katie >> >> >> On Sep 4, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >>> Howdy everyone... >>> Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I >>> decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. >>> >>> Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so >>> >>> -: ..Have A Good Weekend.. :- >>> http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/lostmind.html >>> >>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>> roses >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Sep 4 17:44:22 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:44:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <6854E46316814C32A1DF1A869E130A4E@EdDaviePC> Hey, welcome back Hoss! What are you using? (I have 57.29 inches of rain to date. (from Oct. first) Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:52 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back Howdy everyone... Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so -: ..Have A Good Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html4/lostmind.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 4 20:04:31 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 20:04:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:44:22 -0700 Message-ID: <15885-4C8308BF-2945@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Ed... I have 67.3 from sept 2, 2009 total to now. for last season, and re started 8/22/10 at ,15, and .20 on 8/29/20, and .35 on 8/31/10 , so this season a total thus far at .70. the weather guessers say more to come some time this week end. how are your tomatoes doing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100904/cd3f06ab/attachment.html From jo.david at verizon.net Sat Sep 4 20:57:38 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2010 20:57:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13921-4C82B182-7560@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <691D67DE-0839-4A40-9B29-6C743B033A69@verizon.net> Say-Hey! David On Sep 4, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Howdy everyone... > Got REAL Board, and when Miss "B" told me I was being miss quoted, I decided it might be a good idea to start putting my 2? in again. > > Also I will be starting another rain fall url in a day or so From edavie at verizon.net Sun Sep 5 08:44:00 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 08:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <15885-4C8308BF-2945@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15885-4C8308BF-2945@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Poorly. Way behind in ripening. Ugg. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:04 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm back Ed... I have 67.3 from sept 2, 2009 total to now. for last season, and re started 8/22/10 at ,15, and .20 on 8/29/20, and .35 on 8/31/10 , so this season a total thus far at .70. the weather guessers say more to come some time this week end. how are your tomatoes doing? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 08:59:24 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 08:59:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Sun, 05 Sep 2010 08:44:00 -0700 Message-ID: <15887-4C83BE5C-1866@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> My tomatoes are also doing the same as yours, and I planted then way back in July from plants I got from Jim's Market, and they were already starting to flower... Remember the ole adage "It ain't nice to fool Mother Nature? ... well me thinks she is trying to to tell us something! I am starting to build my rain url this morning. and according to the weather guesser's it is not supposed to rain late Monday night. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/eae76f7c/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 10:33:23 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:33:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <4340-4C83D463-783@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Good Day Forest Grove ..This Greeting Is Just For You - Sunday :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html3/sg1.html and your ten day forecast... http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/97116 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/c4e7a5b6/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 10:39:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:39:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back References: <15887-4C83BE5C-1866@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C83D5E1.000024.01480@DON-B2514E06367> Garden here not doing well. Tomatoes slow to grow, but finally see some red in there. Corn stopped growing 16 inches high; won't get much there. Cucumbers seem healthy, but growing very slowly; should cover 64 square feet by now. Even onions look bad, and they grow anywhere. Some roses, but nothing near normal. Weeds however are growing just fine. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/5/2010 9:01:09 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] I'm back ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100905/47fbeb5d/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 11:01:25 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 11:01:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] gardens In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 10:39:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <4343-4C83DAF5-265@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Don... wrote ... Garden here not doing well. Tomatoes slow to grow, but finally see some red in there. Corn stopped growing 16 inches high; won't get much there. Cucumbers seem healthy, but growing very slowly; should cover 64 square feet by now. Even onions look bad, and they grow anywhere. Some roses, but nothing near normal. Weeds however are growing just fine. ''''''''''' Don... remember the age old adage... "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature"? Well she seems to be paying us back by not helping with our gardens. >From what I've seen from the imported veggies and fruit .. they aren't much better either .. As far as the weeds go, I do not have any, for my helper has made it his duty to keep them all mowed down, for he is afraid of fire danger. He even has the acre or so between my pump house and my home watered and mowed down to look like a golf course. Oh well, such is life! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/95f4a633/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Sun Sep 5 09:38:51 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:38:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] I'm back In-Reply-To: <15887-4C83BE5C-1866@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15887-4C83BE5C-1866@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: The tomatoes out at the Community Garden are just now starting to ripen. A lot of them stayed yellow for a week during the last cool spell. Seems the various varieties ripened at different speeds... the cherry tomatoes a couple of weeks ago, then a small variety called Chocolate Drop, and now finally the larger ones... Looks like the Romas are still lagging a bit. WW On Sep 5, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > My tomatoes are also doing the same as yours, and I planted then way > back in July from plants I got from Jim's Market, and they were > already > starting to flower... > > Remember the ole adage "It ain't nice to fool Mother Nature? ... > well me > thinks she is trying to to tell us something! > > I am starting to build my rain url this morning. and according to the > weather guesser's it is not supposed to rain late Monday night. > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 14:16:11 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:16:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios Message-ID: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/ac0f54b5/attachment.html From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 14:27:27 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Action_Needed_by_September_27th_to_Stop?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Nestl=E9=27s_Plans_to_Bottle_Oregon=27s_Water!?= In-Reply-To: <788709.51474.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <788709.51474.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <246959.483.qm@web112419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The Oregon Water Resources Department is considering a water exchange proposal that would effectively enable Nestl? to access Oregon's water and bottle it. This water exchange is a major and dangerous step forward in Nestl?'s plan to bottle Oregon's water in the town of Cascade Locks in the Columbia River Gorge. If we stop this exchange, we could effectively shut down Nestl?'s plan's to bottle Oregon's water. If you take action by the 27th we will deliver your message in time for the deadline of September 30th. Even if you have already taken action on this campaign by signing our petition (thank you!), please take the next stepto stop the water exchange between Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife and Cascade Locks by taking action below. http://action.foodandwaterwatch.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=4285 From allnutt at frontier.com Sun Sep 5 14:27:46 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:27:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5DBB1016-9C4B-4316-A52B-11D64CFA5CED@frontier.com> I've always enjoyed herbal teas more than stodgy 'Earl Gray'. Katie (Sorry I couldn't resist the parallels.) On Sep 5, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been > wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 14:49:56 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:49:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:27:46 -0700 Message-ID: <13925-4C841084-3039@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I too like earl gray, but is that got to do with politics, or are you just pulling my tea bag string? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/95ff66c1/attachment.html From NoSpam03 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 15:01:42 2010 From: NoSpam03 at comcast.net (Steven) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:01:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <000e01cb4d45$ecf284f0$c6d78ed0$@net> Started out being people who don't agree with either republican or democrat. Both parties have since tried to take it as theirs. Personally, I don't know why these folks don't connect with some of the other parties, libertarian, green and so on. Maybe because these parties have platforms that the general population can not agree with. Bottom line, a lot of folks don't agree with Washington politics. > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Alan Domenghini > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] just curios > > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been > wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? From allnutt at frontier.com Sun Sep 5 15:09:27 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:09:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <13925-4C841084-3039@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13925-4C841084-3039@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <781A48D6-570F-4796-A979-AFDC42A50A34@frontier.com> Just as tea comes in many flavors, the Tea Party folks seems to come in a wide variety as well. Some are truly concerned and would like to work toward a brighter future. There are several guys who all claim to have started the Tea Party and they are fighting tooth and nail over where the party is headed. Some powerful interests have stepped in and usurped the original intent and they are using it for their own financial gain. Others are using it to take the republican party to the edge of lunacy. It is very difficult to say whether one 'likes' or 'dislikes' the Tea Party because it is a lot of different factions with no clear leader or direction. Right now it is a lot like a dog that is a mutt. If you take such a dog to the vet and ask, 'what kind of dog is it?' The vet is likely to say, 'What do you want it to be?' That is the Tea Party. You can find what ever you want in it, in some of the people, some of the time. It takes a lot of hard work and consistent work to form a new party or steer an existing party in a new direction. And anger at an existing problem does not sustain a movement over time. While they seemed to start out with the white hot heat of indignation, they are discovering that they have to find a way to define the movement for the future. There are no quick fixes for what ails us as a country and they need to decide which way to pull. What do you think of them Alan? Katie On Sep 5, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I too like earl gray, but is that got to do with politics, or are you > just pulling my tea bag string? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jbcoops at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 15:10:26 2010 From: jbcoops at yahoo.com (Jeff Cooper) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <5DBB1016-9C4B-4316-A52B-11D64CFA5CED@frontier.com> Message-ID: <484318.90380.qm@web55007.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I think tea partiers have alotta curios... they seem like glass menagerie types to me. Welcome back, Alan (and your typos!) Personally I'm concerned about tea partiers who hold signs like "I'm teabagging for Jesus"... because... teabagging has a very different connotation than I think they know. --Jeff --- On Sun, 9/5/10, Katie Allnutt wrote: From: Katie Allnutt Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Date: Sunday, September 5, 2010, 2:27 PM I've always enjoyed herbal teas more than stodgy 'Earl Gray'. Katie (Sorry I couldn't resist the parallels.) On Sep 5, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been? > wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group.???any thougts? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 15:19:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:19:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:09:27 -0700 Message-ID: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> The Tea Party... Katie... I am still studying the pros and cons, but hope to decide before the next Presidential Election... so far as I can tell they and they and the green party are not much different -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/b9c6c723/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 15:20:30 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:20:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: "Steven" 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:01:42 -0700 Message-ID: <15887-4C8417AE-2104@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> good points steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/23bbf069/attachment.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 15:22:25 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 22:22:25 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <781A48D6-570F-4796-A979-AFDC42A50A34@frontier.com> References: <13925-4C841084-3039@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><781A48D6-570F-4796-A979-AFDC42A50A34@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1177778879-1283725348-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1805030326-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The concept of a new coalition running things is appealing to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they get to washington. A sad commentary on our government. -----Original Message----- From: Katie Allnutt Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:09:27 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Just as tea comes in many flavors, the Tea Party folks seems to come in a wide variety as well. Some are truly concerned and would like to work toward a brighter future. There are several guys who all claim to have started the Tea Party and they are fighting tooth and nail over where the party is headed. Some powerful interests have stepped in and usurped the original intent and they are using it for their own financial gain. Others are using it to take the republican party to the edge of lunacy. It is very difficult to say whether one 'likes' or 'dislikes' the Tea Party because it is a lot of different factions with no clear leader or direction. Right now it is a lot like a dog that is a mutt. If you take such a dog to the vet and ask, 'what kind of dog is it?' The vet is likely to say, 'What do you want it to be?' That is the Tea Party. You can find what ever you want in it, in some of the people, some of the time. It takes a lot of hard work and consistent work to form a new party or steer an existing party in a new direction. And anger at an existing problem does not sustain a movement over time. While they seemed to start out with the white hot heat of indignation, they are discovering that they have to find a way to define the movement for the future. There are no quick fixes for what ails us as a country and they need to decide which way to pull. What do you think of them Alan? Katie On Sep 5, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I too like earl gray, but is that got to do with politics, or are you > just pulling my tea bag string? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 15:28:32 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:28:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: Jeff Cooper 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <15887-4C841990-2111@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Also good points Jeff... as far a s any tea bagging ... I'm just thankful for the slogan "Foot Prints In The Send" for if nit for that... I would of not survived 25 years ago when a drunk ran me over while still in uniform in the cross walk right in front th the Morro Bat , Calif.. Police Dept where I one worked as a beat/beet Cop. Typos not with standing, either way I get my point across. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/24fed643/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 15:34:50 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:34:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: "Steve" 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 22:22:25 +0000 Message-ID: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is appealing to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they get to washington. ======= Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party sure as heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/f6a8d5a4/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 5 15:41:43 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 15:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] speaking of politics Message-ID: <15885-4C841CA7-4082@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> any thoughts on the Kizhhaber and Dudley? You can bet I'll be watching the debate on Sept 30th.. to see who tells the biggest whopper! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100905/eea7bb4f/attachment.html From allnutt at frontier.com Sun Sep 5 16:36:42 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 16:36:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > The Tea Party... > > Katie... > I am still studying the pros and cons, but hope to decide before the > next Presidential Election... so far as I can tell they and they > and the > green party are not much different > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! I haven't seen any movement yet from the Tea Party that they will have a presidential candidate. If Sarah Palin runs I see her aiming for the Republican nomination. As far as the similarities between the Tea Party and the Green Party - I don't see too many similarities. On the Green Party website they list the 10 Key Values of the Party. (Listed Below) Number 2 is Social Justice and Equal Opportunity. (Glenn Beck is against social justice and he says so loudly.) Number 3 is Ecological Wisdom (Not at all compatible with 'Drill Here and Drill Now') Number 4 is Non Violence (Contrary to those who want more '2nd Amendment remedies' and another war with Iran) What do you see as similarities between the Greens and the Tea Party? Katie (Hope the Green Party info comes through...) ? Ten Key Values of the Green Party Originally ratified at the Green Party Convention in Denver, CO, June 2000. 1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process. 2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law. 3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems. 4. NON-VIOLENCE It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society?s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self- defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace. 5. DECENTRALIZATION Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens. 6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a ?living wage? which reflects the real value of a person?s work. Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers? rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our ?quality of life.? We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation. 7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want. 8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines. We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity. 9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet. 10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or ?unmaking? all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions. From edavie at verizon.net Sun Sep 5 16:41:14 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2010 16:41:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> Garbage! Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] just curios as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Sep 5 18:06:24 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 18:06:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <6873F61E-E298-403F-8479-BAB3AD4804CE@teleport.com> One funny description I read was, "A group of people who prepare an opulent banquet for the very wealthy and then go home empty themselves, but convinced they have never had a better meal in their lives." WW On Sep 5, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been > wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sun Sep 5 18:13:08 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 18:13:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] speaking of politics In-Reply-To: <15885-4C841CA7-4082@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15885-4C841CA7-4082@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <60812124-0491-4553-8FD3-F01E5F737D4F@teleport.com> Seems to me that Kitzhaber is "old-line politico," all words and no action, while Dudley is all image and no ideas... He has seemed awfully shallow and evasive so far. On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:41 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > any thoughts on the Kizhhaber and Dudley? > You can bet I'll be watching the debate on Sept 30th.. to see who > tells > the biggest whopper! > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Sun Sep 5 18:53:50 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 18:53:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] speaking of politics In-Reply-To: <60812124-0491-4553-8FD3-F01E5F737D4F@teleport.com> References: <15885-4C841CA7-4082@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <60812124-0491-4553-8FD3-F01E5F737D4F@teleport.com> Message-ID: <007001cb4d66$5af3ef50$10dbcdf0$@com> Walt, > From: Walt Wentz > > Seems to me that Kitzhaber is "old-line politico," all > words and no action, while Dudley is all image and no > ideas... He has seemed awfully shallow and evasive so > far. You're not the only one. You nailed how I would describe what I've observed so far. Jeff From redhead854 at msn.com Sun Sep 5 19:48:46 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:48:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Action_Needed_by_September_27th_to_Stop?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Nestl=E9=27s_Plans_to_Bottle_Oregon=27s_Water!_and_Walmar?= =?iso-8859-1?q?t_traffic?= In-Reply-To: <246959.483.qm@web112419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <788709.51474.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <246959.483.qm@web112419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have to admit that I don't really understand why its bad to let nestle bottle water. Does the local coke/pepsi/crystal springs and all the other places that sell water to us in those 5 gallon jugs bottle water from Oregon too? Or do the normal company's pay fees to bottle the water and this is a change that makes Nestle be able to just get water for free. Would they have to have there own treatment facility? Are we granting rights to them that are unlimited so they could pipeline it down to california? If anyone can clarify that would be great! thanks Holly BTW the Walmart traffic change for me is seemingly non-existant. I notice no change in traffic. We will have to see what happens when school starts. > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:27:27 -0700 > From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Action Needed by September 27th to Stop Nestl?'s Plans to Bottle Oregon's Water! > > The Oregon Water Resources Department is considering a water exchange > proposal that would effectively enable Nestl? to access Oregon's water and > bottle it. This water exchange is a major and dangerous step forward in > Nestl?'s plan to bottle Oregon's water in the town of Cascade Locks in the > Columbia River Gorge. If we stop this exchange, we could effectively shut > down Nestl?'s plan's to bottle Oregon's water. If you take action by the 27th > we will deliver your message in time for the deadline of September 30th. > > > Even if you have already taken action on this campaign by signing our petition > (thank you!), please take the next stepto stop the water exchange between Oregon > Department of Fish and Wildlife and Cascade Locks by taking action below. > > > http://action.foodandwaterwatch.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=4285 > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 20:10:00 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 03:10:00 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?Action_Needed_by_September_27th_to_St?= =?windows-1252?q?op_Nestl=E9=27s_Plans_to_Bottle_Oregon=27s_Water!?= =?windows-1252?q?_and_Walmart_traffic?= In-Reply-To: References: <788709.51474.qm@web55003.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <246959.483.qm@web112419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <923215946-1283742602-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-475632712-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> FG water? We only have so much. A bottle plat could eventually cost us all the money to find more water sources. -----Original Message----- From: Holly Di Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:48:46 To: grovenet Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Action Needed by September 27th to Stop Nestl?'s Plans to Bottle Oregon's Water! and Walmar t traffic I have to admit that I don't really understand why its bad to let nestle bottle water. Does the local coke/pepsi/crystal springs and all the other places that sell water to us in those 5 gallon jugs bottle water from Oregon too? Or do the normal company's pay fees to bottle the water and this is a change that makes Nestle be able to just get water for free. Would they have to have there own treatment facility? Are we granting rights to them that are unlimited so they could pipeline it down to california? If anyone can clarify that would be great! thanks Holly BTW the Walmart traffic change for me is seemingly non-existant. I notice no change in traffic. We will have to see what happens when school starts. > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 14:27:27 -0700 > From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Action Needed by September 27th to Stop Nestl?'s Plans to Bottle Oregon's Water! > > The Oregon Water Resources Department is considering a water exchange > proposal that would effectively enable Nestl? to access Oregon's water and > bottle it. This water exchange is a major and dangerous step forward in > Nestl?'s plan to bottle Oregon's water in the town of Cascade Locks in the > Columbia River Gorge. If we stop this exchange, we could effectively shut > down Nestl?'s plan's to bottle Oregon's water. If you take action by the 27th > we will deliver your message in time for the deadline of September 30th. > > > Even if you have already taken action on this campaign by signing our petition > (thank you!), please take the next stepto stop the water exchange between Oregon > Department of Fish and Wildlife and Cascade Locks by taking action below. > > > http://action.foodandwaterwatch.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=4285 > > > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 23:40:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 23:40:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> If approval ratings were handed out by political parties for PACs, the Tea Party would get 95% from the Republicans and about 5% from the Democrats. Even Obama stated that they were effective. By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins approval rating in Alaska. Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the lower 48. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 9/5/2010 4:41:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Garbage! Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] just curios as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100905/b0208cf7/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 6 08:34:11 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:34:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <15886-4C8509F3-3663@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/coffeemorn-l.html It is going to take some real strong Hosstyle motion-lotion/coffee to get me started on Labor Day, Holiday or not! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100906/22301f8a/attachment.html From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:34:32 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:34:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Interesting, Don. I just came from 2 weeks in AK, and my dyed-in-the-wool conservative Republican in-laws despise Palin and fear for the country if people take her seriously. They can't believe people in the lower-48 are so bamboozled by her. They say it's just because no one here knows what she's really like, or understands what a mess she was as governor of Alaska. Deb Bratland On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:40 PM, donkelly wrote: > If approval ratings were handed out by political parties for PACs, the Tea > Party would get 95% from the Republicans and about 5% from the Democrats. > Even Obama stated that they were effective. > > By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins approval rating in Alaska. > > Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the lower 48. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Ed Davie > Date: 9/5/2010 4:41:26 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > Garbage! > Ed > > > From: Alan Domenghini > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] just curios > > > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 6 08:36:52 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:36:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Sun, 5 Sep 2010 23:40:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I wonder if anyone besides Sara or Hillery will run for President in 2012? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100906/fddc53c0/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 08:45:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 08:45:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I have my doubts. It's my own humble opinion that Hillary has reached the apex of her career, doing well at what she does, but will remain an appointed official; while Sarah has become a joke and an embarrassment to any Republican who is not playing to the loon wing of the party. About the best she could do would be to launch a third party, like George Wallace, which would siphon off some votes from the reactionaries, then sink without a trace. WW On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I wonder if anyone besides Sara or Hillery will run for President in > 2012? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 09:11:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:11:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C8512A0.000008.00504@DON-B2514E06367> Hillery looks like toast for her UN crap, and Sara doesn't currently elicit enough support for a run at the top spot. Possibles? How about Newt or Mike? They are broadly liked. And I forget his name, but there is a very smart governor in the north east coast that seems (without vetting) a good candidate. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 9/6/2010 8:46:28 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I have my doubts. It's my own humble opinion that Hillary has reached The apex of her career, doing well at what she does, but will remain An appointed official; while Sarah has become a joke and an Embarrassment to any Republican who is not playing to the loon wing Of the party. About the best she could do would be to launch a third Party, like George Wallace, which would siphon off some votes from The reactionaries, then sink without a trace. WW On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I wonder if anyone besides Sara or Hillery will run for President in > 2012? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 09:33:45 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:33:45 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8512A0.000008.00504@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4C8512A0.000008.00504@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <954CE257-3DDC-49A5-A140-7C5BBDCE9AA0@teleport.com> I think Newt is a has-been, who tries to become more extreme just to attract attention. Dunno who MiKe might be... Huckabee? Wallace? Mouse? But I think there will in fact be some more plausible and surprising dark-horse candidates emerging from the Repubs, as soon as the initial furore dies down. At any rate, there had better be, for the country's sake. If we elect a Know-Nothing, we'll be on the skids for good... WW On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:11 AM, donkelly wrote: > Hillery looks like toast for her UN crap, and Sara doesn't > currently elicit > enough support for a run at the top spot. > > Possibles? How about Newt or Mike? They are broadly liked. > > And I forget his name, but there is a very smart governor in the > north east > coast that seems (without vetting) a good candidate. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/6/2010 8:46:28 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > I have my doubts. It's my own humble opinion that Hillary has reached > The apex of her career, doing well at what she does, but will remain > An appointed official; while Sarah has become a joke and an > Embarrassment to any Republican who is not playing to the loon wing > Of the party. About the best she could do would be to launch a third > Party, like George Wallace, which would siphon off some votes from > The reactionaries, then sink without a trace. > WW > On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone besides Sara or Hillery will run for President in >> 2012? >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 6 09:59:35 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:59:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4340-4C851DF7-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> any thoughts on Nador trying again? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100906/9ccd837e/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 6 10:00:53 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:00:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Mon, 6 Sep 2010 09:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4340-4C851E45-2136@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Anyone ever seen a Green Rose? http://tinyurl.com/GreenRose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100906/04db4dad/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 11:00:09 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8512A0.000008.00504@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15889-4C850A94-1171@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <4C8512A0.000008.00504@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C852C29.20308@gmail.com> Don, I think you may be referring to Chris Christie governor of New Jersey. He has been gaining notice amongst the conservative ranks, but has expressed that he is currently not interested in making a run for President (definition - not 2012 but maybe 2016?). I doubt if Hillary Clinton would make a run in 2012 unless she resigns within the next six months. There may be one or two people who will try to run against President Obama in the primary, they will not get the nomination but how well they do will show if Obama will win re-election. In 1976 and 1980 Ford and Carter faced tough battles in their primaries (Regan and Kennedy) which hurt them in the general election. In 1968 President Johnson lost the New Hampshire and then decided not to run for re-election. Newt Gingrich has no chance since it's too late. His time would have been in 1996, maybe 2000. Huckabee does have a chance, he is milk toast enough to win the primary and has a shot to become President. It's not that he will unite all the different factions in the Republican party, but a lot of people will be willing to throw their eggs in one basket to take down President Obama. Of course the thought of President Huckabee scares me as much as another term of President Obama. ;-) Adam donkelly wrote: > Hillery looks like toast for her UN crap, and Sara doesn't currently elicit > enough support for a run at the top spot. > > Possibles? How about Newt or Mike? They are broadly liked. > > And I forget his name, but there is a very smart governor in the north east > coast that seems (without vetting) a good candidate. > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/6/2010 8:46:28 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > I have my doubts. It's my own humble opinion that Hillary has reached > The apex of her career, doing well at what she does, but will remain > An appointed official; while Sarah has become a joke and an > Embarrassment to any Republican who is not playing to the loon wing > Of the party. About the best she could do would be to launch a third > Party, like George Wallace, which would siphon off some votes from > The reactionaries, then sink without a trace. > WW > On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > >> I wonder if anyone besides Sara or Hillery will run for President in >> 2012? >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 11:02:33 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:02:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. (not!) :-! Adam Ed Davie wrote: > Garbage! > Ed > > > From: Alan Domenghini > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] just curios > > > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 6 14:07:22 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 14:07:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <00a601cb4e07$80ee9c90$82cbd5b0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins > approval rating in Alaska. > > Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the > lower 48. Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll bite. What do you think it is? For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her approval rating: http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in-alaska.html http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/sarah_palin_favorite _trails_in.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/sarah_palin_and_ the_tea_party.html#more Jeff From edavie at verizon.net Mon Sep 6 14:38:33 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 14:38:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! Ed From: Adam Mayer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. (not!) :-! Adam Ed Davie wrote: > Garbage! > Ed > > > From: Alan Domenghini > Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] just curios > > > as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering > about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Mon Sep 6 16:11:00 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:11:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <00a601cb4e07$80ee9c90$82cbd5b0$@com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367> <00a601cb4e07$80ee9c90$82cbd5b0$@com> Message-ID: <6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> I like playing along at home... Here is another from July of this year "Palin's 76% Favorable Among Republicans Tops Others in GOP": http://www.gallup.com/poll/141341/Palin-Favorable-Among-Republicans- Tops-Others-GOP.aspx Granted this was not Alaska only and not a question of whether she should run for president, just whether folks viewed her favorably. But nonetheless telling. Katie I am waiting to see what Don's reply is and where he gets the number from. On Sep 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >> approval rating in Alaska. >> >> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >> lower 48. > > Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it > matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll > bite. What > do you think it is? > > For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her > approval > rating: > > http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- > alaska.html > > http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ > sarah_palin_favorite > _trails_in.html > > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ > sarah_palin_and_ > the_tea_party.html#more > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 16:31:57 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:31:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4340-4C851DF7-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4340-4C851DF7-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <3D2F4920-0620-48F9-BF85-045B55A13C8C@teleport.com> I think Nader is pretty much ancient history with the Youth vote, and he generated a lot of resentment as a "spoiler." WW On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > any thoughts on Nador trying again? > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 16:32:00 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 23:32:00 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC><4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367><00a601cb4e07$80ee9c90$82cbd5b0$@com><6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1879977050-1283815922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1760175569-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Not fair. Look at the list of "other top republicans". I think hillary would poll higher. -----Original Message----- From: Katie Allnutt Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 16:11:00 To: ; Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I like playing along at home... Here is another from July of this year "Palin's 76% Favorable Among Republicans Tops Others in GOP": http://www.gallup.com/poll/141341/Palin-Favorable-Among-Republicans- Tops-Others-GOP.aspx Granted this was not Alaska only and not a question of whether she should run for president, just whether folks viewed her favorably. But nonetheless telling. Katie I am waiting to see what Don's reply is and where he gets the number from. On Sep 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >> approval rating in Alaska. >> >> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >> lower 48. > > Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it > matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll > bite. What > do you think it is? > > For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her > approval > rating: > > http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- > alaska.html > > http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ > sarah_palin_favorite > _trails_in.html > > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ > sarah_palin_and_ > the_tea_party.html#more > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 17:17:51 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:17:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. Adam Ed Davie wrote: > It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! > Ed > > > > From: Adam Mayer > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > > Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. > (not!) :-! > > Adam > > Ed Davie wrote: > >> Garbage! >> Ed >> >> >> From: Alan Domenghini >> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> >> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering >> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at frontier.com Mon Sep 6 17:25:57 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:25:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <1879977050-1283815922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1760175569-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC><4C848CF0.000003.02576@DON-B2514E06367><00a601cb4e07$80ee9c90$82cbd5b0$@com><6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> <1879977050-1283815922-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1760175569-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <3506A595-C9EB-4AF7-B2DA-4BD848B74E23@frontier.com> ??? Who would be better in the 'other republican' category to make it more fair? And in a way it doesn't really matter does it? Palin would likely still get a 76% approval rating if she was polled with different republicans. The question wasn't which republican do you prefer, the question was do you have a favorable opinion of each of these republicans. And the results are that most republicans polled like those republicans. How hard is that to believe? (Jindal is less well known so his numbers are explainable.) How hard is that to believe? I don't really understand what you think is unfair. Katie On Sep 6, 2010, at 4:32 PM, Steve wrote: > Not fair. Look at the list of "other top republicans". I think > hillary would poll higher. > -----Original Message----- > > > I like playing along at home... > > Here is another from July of this year > "Palin's 76% Favorable Among Republicans Tops Others in GOP": > > http://www.gallup.com/poll/141341/Palin-Favorable-Among-Republicans- > Tops-Others-GOP.aspx > > Granted this was not Alaska only and not a question of whether she > should run for president, just whether folks viewed her favorably. > But nonetheless telling. > > Katie > I am waiting to see what Don's reply is and where he gets the number > from. > > > On Sep 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> Don, >> >>> From: donkelly >>> >>> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >>> approval rating in Alaska. >>> >>> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >>> lower 48. >> >> Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it >> matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll >> bite. What >> do you think it is? >> >> For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her >> approval >> rating: >> >> http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- >> alaska.html >> >> http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ >> sarah_palin_favorite >> _trails_in.html >> >> http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ >> sarah_palin_and_ >> the_tea_party.html#more >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 17:40:38 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:40:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- taking the majority." Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that most readily comes to mind. WW On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and > information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. > > Adam > > Ed Davie wrote: >> It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! >> Ed >> >> >> >> From: Adam Mayer >> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> >> Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. >> (not!) :-! >> >> Adam >> >> Ed Davie wrote: >> >>> Garbage! >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> From: Alan Domenghini >>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios >>> >>> >>> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been >>> wondering >>> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------------ >>> >>> >>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>> roses >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------------ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 17:43:35 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:43:35 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] FW: just curios In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops! Sent this back to you folks rather than on to a friend. You probably wondered...sometimes I wonder too. Kristy ------ Forwarded Message From: Kristy Gravlin Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:07:13 -0500 To: ".open minds [2508--1113]" Conversation: [Grovenet] just curios Subject: FW: [Grovenet] just curios Since I started this with the last note, I decided I should give you a chance to see it. There are 3 websites. The third has a word-chart (not a bar graph) saying how many of which category of folks like/dislike Sarah. But they are all saying just what you would expect ... no one likes her overly much and the Dem's really don't like her. So feel free to skip this without missing much if that's your choice. KG Don, > From: donkelly > > By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins > approval rating in Alaska. > > Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the > lower 48. Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll bite. What do you think it is? For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her approval rating: http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in-alaska.html http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/sarah_palin_favorite _trails_in.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/sarah_palin_and_ the_tea_party.html#more Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 18:57:02 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:57:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> Walt, I have no problem with your posts or opinions, they are well thought out and you explain your reasons. I don't always agree but I can't remember you making a blanket statement without explaining. That being said, I do agree with the point that people this election will be voting against President Obama. Just as people were voting against President Bush two years ago, the see-saw bouncing doesn't accomplish anything. But the mistake you are making is mixing the Republican party and the Tea Party. The Republican party (and Democrat party as well) really doesn't have much of an agenda except trying to gain power. This is why I don't trust either of them and very rarely vote for their candidates. But the Tea Party is made up of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, Constitution, Non-Affiliated, a few Greens and other political parties I may have forgotten, maybe with the exception of the Progressive party. The Tea Party will end up supporting a number of Republicans but it doesn't mean they are Republicans. Since the original question was about the Tea Party and since they can only support candidates, their support of candidates who only want to be the group in power may hurt them in the long run. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- > taking the majority." Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning > the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not > "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the > people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long > as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the > thought that most readily comes to mind. > WW > On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and >> information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. >> >> Adam >> >> Ed Davie wrote: >> >>> It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >>> >>> >>> Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. >>> (not!) :-! >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Ed Davie wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Garbage! >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alan Domenghini >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios >>>> >>>> >>>> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been >>>> wondering >>>> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>>> roses >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From allnutt at frontier.com Mon Sep 6 19:03:11 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 19:03:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] FW: just curios In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7799E183-ADEB-4784-B288-F93A817CC306@frontier.com> Welcome to the club Kristy. Several of us have done this at some point. Maybe it is a true sign of a grovenut. Katie On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:43 PM, Kristy Gravlin wrote: > Oops! Sent this back to you folks rather than on to a friend. You > probably > wondered...sometimes I wonder too. Kristy > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Kristy Gravlin > Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:07:13 -0500 > To: ".open minds [2508--1113]" > Conversation: [Grovenet] just curios > Subject: FW: [Grovenet] just curios > > > Since I started this with the last note, I decided I should give you a > chance to see it. There are 3 websites. The third has a word-chart > (not a > bar graph) saying how many of which category of folks like/dislike > Sarah. > But they are all saying just what you would expect ... no one likes > her > overly much and the Dem's really don't like her. So feel free to > skip this > without missing much if that's your choice. KG > > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >> approval rating in Alaska. >> >> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >> lower 48. > > Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it > matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll > bite. What > do you think it is? > > For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her > approval > rating: > > http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- > alaska.html > > http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ > sarah_palin_favorite > _trails_in.html > > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ > sarah_palin_and_ > the_tea_party.html#more > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 19:27:31 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 02:27:31 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com><78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com><4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <353432433-1283826453-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-569180867-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Good description. Kind of a voting recommendation. What the heck, some folks vote party line. This is just a new line. -----Original Message----- From: Adam Mayer Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:57:02 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Walt, I have no problem with your posts or opinions, they are well thought out and you explain your reasons. I don't always agree but I can't remember you making a blanket statement without explaining. That being said, I do agree with the point that people this election will be voting against President Obama. Just as people were voting against President Bush two years ago, the see-saw bouncing doesn't accomplish anything. But the mistake you are making is mixing the Republican party and the Tea Party. The Republican party (and Democrat party as well) really doesn't have much of an agenda except trying to gain power. This is why I don't trust either of them and very rarely vote for their candidates. But the Tea Party is made up of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, Constitution, Non-Affiliated, a few Greens and other political parties I may have forgotten, maybe with the exception of the Progressive party. The Tea Party will end up supporting a number of Republicans but it doesn't mean they are Republicans. Since the original question was about the Tea Party and since they can only support candidates, their support of candidates who only want to be the group in power may hurt them in the long run. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- > taking the majority." Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning > the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not > "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the > people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long > as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the > thought that most readily comes to mind. > WW > On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and >> information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. >> >> Adam >> >> Ed Davie wrote: >> >>> It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! >>> Ed >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Adam Mayer >>> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >>> >>> >>> Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. >>> (not!) :-! >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Ed Davie wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Garbage! >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Alan Domenghini >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM >>>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >>>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios >>>> >>>> >>>> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been >>>> wondering >>>> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>>> roses >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 6 20:27:50 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:27:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> <4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c401cb4e3c$a72b53f0$f581fbd0$@com> Adam, > From: Adam Mayer > > [...] But the Tea Party is made up of Republicans, > Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, Constitution, > Non-Affiliated, a few Greens and other political > parties I may have forgotten, maybe with the exception > of the Progressive party. The Tea Party will end up > supporting a number of Republicans but it doesn't > mean they are Republicans. So, if the net result is they end up supporting Republican candidates, what difference does it make what their party affiliation is? Conversely, the Republican party (and FOX) is putting loads of money behind the Tea Party, essentially making it into the lunatic faction of the Republican party thereby making the individual party affiliations, once again, a moot point. Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 20:27:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 03:27:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1797525167.895133.1283830064971.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Katie, the overall number 76% sounds about right for the whole 50 states. My oldest son lives in Alaska and, in summary, there have been several polls within the state of Alaska. One interesting to him asked for opinion on six things, the last one asking opinion on Palins resignation as governor. 37% didn't like that resignation at all, but the overall approval rating from that poll was 91% favorable. The other favorable ratings ran from 82% to 94%. So it seems that Alaska likes Palin. It also appears that The Tea Party, 9-12, Patriots, one million mom's, one million fathers, and other associated groups with total memberships close to 30 million, all like Palin, not great on all points (feet of clay), yet rate her very high. The interesting thing will be watching the trends between now and election. More groups than ever before are demanding impeachment. If the Repubs sweep most of the seats from the Dems, watch for more fireworks. Obama just lost a bunch more support with turning his issue with Arizona over to the UN. His support is also falling with Hispanics, though no one has quantified how much it has fallen yet. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:11:00 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I like playing along at home... Here is another from July of this year "Palin's 76% Favorable Among Republicans Tops Others in GOP": http://www.gallup.com/poll/141341/Palin-Favorable-Among-Republicans- Tops-Others-GOP.aspx Granted this was not Alaska only and not a question of whether she should run for president, just whether folks viewed her favorably. But nonetheless telling. Katie I am waiting to see what Don's reply is and where he gets the number from. On Sep 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >> approval rating in Alaska. >> >> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >> lower 48. > > Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it > matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll > bite. What > do you think it is? > > For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her > approval > rating: > > http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- > alaska.html > > http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ > sarah_palin_favorite > _trails_in.html > > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ > sarah_palin_and_ > the_tea_party.html#more > > Jeff From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 6 20:35:49 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:35:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] 2010 Scarecrow Show Message-ID: <201009062035.49187.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> The 2010 Scarecrow Show is coming up with the Sidewalk Chalk Art Festival! This year's theme is "Kinetics: It All About Movement." Bring your scarecrows (self supporting please, but we can drive stakes into the ground for extra support) to the UCC Church lawn facing Main Street on Saturday, Sept. 18th between 8 and 9am. There will also be a table for the small ones. Questions? Call Scarecrow Queen Mary Beth at 503-357-3902. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 20:35:07 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 03:35:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <6A591603-A9FF-46AF-B8C9-FEA865A03695@frontier.com> Message-ID: <2138563674.895475.1283830507513.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Seems typical of the Washington Post. Swamp Politics sounds a bit swampy, bottom feeding. Public Policy? Donno about them. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:11:00 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I like playing along at home... Here is another from July of this year "Palin's 76% Favorable Among Republicans Tops Others in GOP": http://www.gallup.com/poll/141341/Palin-Favorable-Among-Republicans- Tops-Others-GOP.aspx Granted this was not Alaska only and not a question of whether she should run for president, just whether folks viewed her favorably. But nonetheless telling. Katie I am waiting to see what Don's reply is and where he gets the number from. On Sep 6, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> By the way, is anyone interested in Sarah Palins >> approval rating in Alaska. >> >> Hint: It is much higher there than it is in the >> lower 48. > > Considering the political "might" that Alaska wields, I'm not sure it > matters what her approval rating is there. Just the same, I'll > bite. What > do you think it is? > > For those playing along at home, here's some recent info on her > approval > rating: > > http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2010/09/palin-2012-in- > alaska.html > > http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2010/07/ > sarah_palin_favorite > _trails_in.html > > http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/03/ > sarah_palin_and_ > the_tea_party.html#more > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 20:36:58 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:36:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- taking the majority." Hi Walt - The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. I get really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup either. Deb Bratland On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning > the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not > "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the > people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long > as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the > thought that most readily comes to mind. > WW > On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and > > information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. > > > > Adam > > > > Ed Davie wrote: > >> It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! > >> Ed > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Adam Mayer > >> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM > >> To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > >> > >> > >> Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. > >> (not!) :-! > >> > >> Adam > >> > >> Ed Davie wrote: > >> > >>> Garbage! > >>> Ed > >>> > >>> > >>> From: Alan Domenghini > >>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM > >>> To: grovenet at rdrop.com > >>> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios > >>> > >>> > >>> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been > >>> wondering > >>> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> ------------ > >>> > >>> > >>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > >>> roses > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> ------------ > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From smithsmith at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 20:44:31 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 20:44:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] 2010 Scarecrow Show In-Reply-To: <201009062035.49187.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> References: <201009062035.49187.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Any electricity available this year? :) On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Meredith Bliss wrote: > The 2010 Scarecrow Show is coming up with the Sidewalk Chalk Art Festival! > This year's theme is "Kinetics: It All About Movement." Bring your > scarecrows > (self supporting please, but we can drive stakes into the ground for extra > support) to the UCC Church lawn facing Main Street on Saturday, Sept. 18th > between 8 and 9am. There will also be a table for the small ones. > Questions? > Call Scarecrow Queen Mary Beth at 503-357-3902. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From mbliss at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 6 21:00:15 2010 From: mbliss at agora.rdrop.com (Meredith Bliss) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:00:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] 2010 Scarecrow Show In-Reply-To: References: <201009062035.49187.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <201009062100.15854.mbliss@agora.rdrop.com> Oh good! Bring an extension cord just to be sure, we'll save a spot at the end for you! MB says "Hey!" On Monday 06 September 2010 08:44:31 pm b Smith wrote: > Any electricity available this year? > > :) > > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Meredith Bliss wrote: > > The 2010 Scarecrow Show is coming up with the Sidewalk Chalk Art > > Festival! This year's theme is "Kinetics: It All About Movement." Bring > > your scarecrows > > (self supporting please, but we can drive stakes into the ground for > > extra support) to the UCC Church lawn facing Main Street on Saturday, > > Sept. 18th between 8 and 9am. There will also be a table for the small > > ones. Questions? > > Call Scarecrow Queen Mary Beth at 503-357-3902. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 21:03:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 04:03:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking about me like a dog" Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Debra Bratland To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- taking the majority." Hi Walt - The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. I get really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup either. Deb Bratland On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning > the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not > "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the > people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long > as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the > thought that most readily comes to mind. > WW From edavie at verizon.net Mon Sep 6 21:07:20 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:07:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> Message-ID: So am I! Ed From: Adam Mayer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:17 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I though you had a legitimate reason based on facts, opinions and information gathered. I'm sorry I made that mistake. Adam Ed Davie wrote: > It simply isn't worth any more effort than that! > Ed > > > > From: Adam Mayer > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 11:02 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > > Wow Ed, that was a well thought out, factual, intelligent response. > (not!) :-! > > Adam > > Ed Davie wrote: > >> Garbage! >> Ed >> >> >> From: Alan Domenghini >> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:16 PM >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> >> as most of you know that I'm not polictical at all, but I been wondering >> about any thought of this Tea Party group. any thougts? >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 21:14:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 04:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: <4340-4C851E45-2136@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <473879662.897081.1283832853451.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Must have a lot of chloraphil there Alan. Anxious to follow this opening. All my roses in several colors are opening. Garden is rather worse though. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Domenghini To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 17:00:53 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios Anyone ever seen a Green Rose? http://tinyurl.com/GreenRose From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 6 21:31:16 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:31:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Tue, 7 Sep 2010 04:14:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <15884-4C85C014-8176@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> no don. it is just my green thumb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100906/aab58c80/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 21:57:28 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 04:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: <15884-4C85C014-8176@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <574611520.898104.1283835448387.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Despite a membership of 30 million, plus even more when including regular followers, many people want to know more about the Tea Part and the (now 63) other associated groups. >From my point they look at how they are like, and downplay how they are different. Out of this policy have emerged several common agreements. When asked what they will do if their candidates win and after they lay down their signs. Today Congress.org listed several common agreements between the groups. 1. Repeal Obamacare 2. Cut entitlements 3. Hold polititians accountable. 4. Continue to focus on local elections. 5. Pick and support the next presidential candidate. 6. Beat the EPA world plan. Curious that impeachment was not on the lists. As a throw in, the NRA ammendment was signed by the president and became law. Opinion: Bet it was part of their payoff. don PS: Alan, I think you got the talent. I can kill a house plant by looking at it. From adamsmayer at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 21:56:44 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:56:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <00c401cb4e3c$a72b53f0$f581fbd0$@com> References: <15884-4C84089B-5423@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <681807C1C43442F2A69A441E4F6952D5@EdDaviePC> <4C852CB9.5010407@gmail.com> <78BDEC0F153344159CEFF01BBFC69DC2@EdDaviePC> <4C8584AF.3040106@gmail.com> <4C859BEE.9000409@gmail.com> <00c401cb4e3c$a72b53f0$f581fbd0$@com> Message-ID: <4C85C60C.8050700@gmail.com> That's because there is no major third party that has grouped the Tea Party into their ranks. It is similar and different to the Reform party in various ways, they are angry at the two major parties but they don't have a Ross Perot. This time around it is easier for the Tea Party to jump on the Republican bandwagon, but they may be supporting Democrats in 2014 and 2016. The Republican party has tried to incorporate the Tea Party but at the same time, from what I've seen and heard, they shun them. They are like the Log Cabin Republicans, the GOP wants to use them when it benefits them but pushes them aside if they think it will hurt them. FOX news, like any other TV channel just wants ratings, so they're just cashing in and seem to be doing pretty well with it. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> [...] But the Tea Party is made up of Republicans, >> Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, Constitution, >> Non-Affiliated, a few Greens and other political >> parties I may have forgotten, maybe with the exception >> of the Progressive party. The Tea Party will end up >> supporting a number of Republicans but it doesn't >> mean they are Republicans. >> > > So, if the net result is they end up supporting Republican candidates, what > difference does it make what their party affiliation is? > > Conversely, the Republican party (and FOX) is putting loads of money behind > the Tea Party, essentially making it into the lunatic faction of the > Republican party thereby making the individual party affiliations, once > again, a moot point. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 6 22:12:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 05:12:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C85C60C.8050700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <744147049.898394.1283836333770.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think one reason why they have many parties in their groups is from the git go they decided to be party-independent, to appeal to everyone instead of glombing onto one political party. Seems to have worked. They can bitch about anyone they want, irreguardless of the party affiliation. They don't seem to like RINO's or Dino's very much. Religious groups of several denominations, and even Israel it'self, supports these patriotic groups as one loud voice for the people. No one is sacrosanct. don ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Mayer To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 04:56:44 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios That's because there is no major third party that has grouped the Tea Party into their ranks. It is similar and different to the Reform party in various ways, they are angry at the two major parties but they don't have a Ross Perot. This time around it is easier for the Tea Party to jump on the Republican bandwagon, but they may be supporting Democrats in 2014 and 2016. The Republican party has tried to incorporate the Tea Party but at the same time, from what I've seen and heard, they shun them. They are like the Log Cabin Republicans, the GOP wants to use them when it benefits them but pushes them aside if they think it will hurt them. FOX news, like any other TV channel just wants ratings, so they're just cashing in and seem to be doing pretty well with it. Adam Jeff Howden wrote: > Adam, > > >> From: Adam Mayer >> >> [...] But the Tea Party is made up of Republicans, >> Democrats, Libertarians, Independents, Constitution, >> Non-Affiliated, a few Greens and other political >> parties I may have forgotten, maybe with the exception >> of the Progressive party. The Tea Party will end up >> supporting a number of Republicans but it doesn't >> mean they are Republicans. >> > > So, if the net result is they end up supporting Republican candidates, what > difference does it make what their party affiliation is? > > Conversely, the Republican party (and FOX) is putting loads of money behind > the Tea Party, essentially making it into the lunatic faction of the > Republican party thereby making the individual party affiliations, once > again, a moot point. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Mon Sep 6 22:32:39 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 22:32:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: <574611520.898104.1283835448387.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <574611520.898104.1283835448387.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <23C28232-5900-4973-B267-AD100DCFE4D7@frontier.com> Interesting that there is nothing there about jobs. Nothing there about holding polluters accountable. Nothing there about getting health care for people (once you repeal Obama care and cut entitlements how do the folks on the bottom rungs get health care beyond an ER visit or is that all they get?) Nothing there about bridges that fall into rivers or eggs that have salmonella. Nothing there about ending the war in Afghanistan (guess they are happy with unending wars) Nothing there about small business loans or mine safety either. Those are so much less important that picking the next presidential candidate early aren't they? These things will probably come after they take two years to try to impeach Obama. Because the priorities are as you listed below and impeachment will be #7. You can tell what they believe in by what they agree on. Katie On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:57 PM, donkelly wrote: > Despite a membership of 30 million, plus even more when including > regular followers, many people want to know more about the Tea Part > and the (now 63) other associated groups. > >> From my point they look at how they are like, and downplay how >> they are different. > > Out of this policy have emerged several common agreements. When > asked what they will do if their candidates win and after they lay > down their signs. > > Today Congress.org listed several common agreements between the > groups. > > 1. Repeal Obamacare > 2. Cut entitlements > 3. Hold polititians accountable. > 4. Continue to focus on local elections. > 5. Pick and support the next presidential candidate. > 6. Beat the EPA world plan. > > Curious that impeachment was not on the lists. > > As a throw in, the NRA ammendment was signed by the president and > became law. > Opinion: Bet it was part of their payoff. > > don > > PS: Alan, I think you got the talent. I can kill a house plant by > looking at it. > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Mon Sep 6 22:36:49 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:36:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> Alan, If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian Party. There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and support going from APF to the tea party groups. Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. If you are interested in what the government would look like should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make assumptions. I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their training. Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton administration. David Funding for APF comes from David Koch, On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is appealing > to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they get to > washington. > ======= > Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party sure as > heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 6 23:08:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 23:08:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that fashion. On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in > Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) > "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking > about me like a dog" > > Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? > > Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Debra Bratland > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- > taking the majority." > > Hi Walt - > > The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but > unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. > I get > really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup > either. > > Deb Bratland > > > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning >> the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not >> "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the >> people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long >> as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the >> thought that most readily comes to mind. >> WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 07:29:43 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 07:29:43 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com> David, While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the Libertarian Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party hasn't really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You have people who are religious social conservatives all the way to libertarian social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer clear of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti-incumbent stands. They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never done politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm glad to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really love this group. But remember back to when you first started to become aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and pretty as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how to be politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get bored and go back to their lives. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Alan, > > If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian Party. > > There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and support going from APF to the tea party groups. > > Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. > > If you are interested in what the government would look like should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make assumptions. > > I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their training. > > Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton administration. > > David > > > Funding for APF comes from David Koch, > On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > >> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is appealing >> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they get to >> washington. >> ======= >> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party sure as >> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 09:15:54 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:15:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> <4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> Well, yeah, Adam, I agree, the Tea Party folks will have to get educated-- and in a hurry. And you can't discuss economic issues without also discussing social and religious issues. For instance, how can the economy be strengthened as long as so many people have no jobs? How can societal norms be preserved when the middle class is shrinking instead of expanding? How can the nation be defended when our all-volunteer military is overextended and running on borrowed money? How can we have freedom of belief, when one "brand" of religion insists upon dictating public morality? How can we claim to be a "moral" society, when people can be marginalized, denounced or discarded as "the Other" because of their religion or lack of same, their mental health, their income level, their physical disabilities, their sexual orientation or national origin? How can we individuals direct our nation's politics through our votes, when giant corporations are granted "personhood" which frees them from individual responsibility for their actions, yet allows them to pour unlimited funds into national elections, and to monopolize public debate? How can we control our borders, when so many industries are eager to hire desperate, low-paid, intimidated employees who can be abused without fear of reprisal or retaliation? And finally, how can we have national prosperity and realize the "American Dream" when a tiny minority of the population controls over 90 percent of the nation's wealth-- a percentage that continues to grow, even while American jobs are being shipped overseas? Hard questions, those. but critical for our nation's survival as America the Free. Face it, a simplistic feel-good platform of "lower taxes and throw the bums out" isn't going to solve our real problems. If Tea Party candidates run-- and win-- on a platform like that, then we will indeed get "the government we deserve." WW On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > David, > > While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the Libertarian > Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party > hasn't > really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political > party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The > meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are > generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You > have > people who are religious social conservatives all the way to > libertarian > social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer > clear > of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti- > incumbent stands. > > They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never > done > politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. > Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, > educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm > glad > to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really > love this group. But remember back to when you first started to > become > aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and pretty > as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information > given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of > the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how > to be > politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get > bored and go back to their lives. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> Alan, >> >> If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian >> Party. >> >> There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea >> Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and >> support going from APF to the tea party groups. >> >> Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the >> Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of >> Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for >> Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. >> >> If you are interested in what the government would look like >> should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make >> assumptions. >> >> I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their >> training. >> >> Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would >> expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton >> administration. >> >> David >> >> >> Funding for APF comes from David Koch, >> On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >> >>> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is >>> appealing >>> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they >>> get to >>> washington. >>> ======= >>> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party >>> sure as >>> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >>> >>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>> roses _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 09:26:29 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:26:29 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net><4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com><3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> So quit eating at McDonald's. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:15:54 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Well, yeah, Adam, I agree, the Tea Party folks will have to get educated-- and in a hurry. And you can't discuss economic issues without also discussing social and religious issues. For instance, how can the economy be strengthened as long as so many people have no jobs? How can societal norms be preserved when the middle class is shrinking instead of expanding? How can the nation be defended when our all-volunteer military is overextended and running on borrowed money? How can we have freedom of belief, when one "brand" of religion insists upon dictating public morality? How can we claim to be a "moral" society, when people can be marginalized, denounced or discarded as "the Other" because of their religion or lack of same, their mental health, their income level, their physical disabilities, their sexual orientation or national origin? How can we individuals direct our nation's politics through our votes, when giant corporations are granted "personhood" which frees them from individual responsibility for their actions, yet allows them to pour unlimited funds into national elections, and to monopolize public debate? How can we control our borders, when so many industries are eager to hire desperate, low-paid, intimidated employees who can be abused without fear of reprisal or retaliation? And finally, how can we have national prosperity and realize the "American Dream" when a tiny minority of the population controls over 90 percent of the nation's wealth-- a percentage that continues to grow, even while American jobs are being shipped overseas? Hard questions, those. but critical for our nation's survival as America the Free. Face it, a simplistic feel-good platform of "lower taxes and throw the bums out" isn't going to solve our real problems. If Tea Party candidates run-- and win-- on a platform like that, then we will indeed get "the government we deserve." WW On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > David, > > While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the Libertarian > Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party > hasn't > really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political > party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The > meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are > generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You > have > people who are religious social conservatives all the way to > libertarian > social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer > clear > of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti- > incumbent stands. > > They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never > done > politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. > Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, > educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm > glad > to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really > love this group. But remember back to when you first started to > become > aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and pretty > as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information > given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of > the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how > to be > politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get > bored and go back to their lives. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: >> Alan, >> >> If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian >> Party. >> >> There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea >> Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and >> support going from APF to the tea party groups. >> >> Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the >> Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of >> Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for >> Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. >> >> If you are interested in what the government would look like >> should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make >> assumptions. >> >> I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their >> training. >> >> Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would >> expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton >> administration. >> >> David >> >> >> Funding for APF comes from David Koch, >> On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >> >>> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is >>> appealing >>> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they >>> get to >>> washington. >>> ======= >>> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party >>> sure as >>> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >>> >>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>> roses _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 09:45:23 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Artists wanted: Mensch Fest 9/17/10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <91218.68590.qm@web55606.mail.re4.yahoo.com> ARTISTS WANTED DISPLAY AND SELL YOUR ARTWORK FOR FREE @ the MENSCH Festival of Music and Art September 17th? 5:00? 10:00 pm Pacific University, Forest Grove To participate, fill out the following form and send it to Chloe Kessinger kess4310 at pacificu.edu ARTIST SIGN-UP SHEET 1. Name and contact information (phone number, e-mail, address): 2. Type of Art Work: 3. Number of pieces you intend to display and their dimensions: 4. Do you wish to sell any of your artwork?? Yes? ? /? ? No 5. Can you bring your own easel or display table?? Yes???/? ? No Contact Chloe Kessinger for more information: Kess4310 at pacificu.edu Sponsored by Pacific?s Center for Gender Equity and ACE Board Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? ? ? From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 09:47:42 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:47:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios In-Reply-To: donkelly 's message of Tue, 7 Sep 2010 04:57:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4339-4C866CAE-4787@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Don... I spent time yesterday chatting with some friends that I hold in high esteem. Some of which are or were politicians at one time. I promised them not to repeat their statements here. However, I learned one thing which is that the so called tea party is just clouding up the waters so to speak, and causing miss-trust by their actions. So ..... an OleHoss is still an independent..... pss Don... If you have any special plants that you want to save ... bring them to an olehoss. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/b59d20c0/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Sep 7 09:47:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:47:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net><4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com><3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> <984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <001801cb4eac$6e6eaec0$4b4c0c40$@com> > From: Steve > > So quit eating at McDonald's. Quit pointing the finger and realize that when you do there are four more pointing back at you. Yeah, I think fewer people should eat at McDonald's. Yes, I think McDonald's shouldn't be allowed to sell the food they do, contributing to the epidemic of obesity that is partially responsible for our skyrocketing healthcare costs. Yes, I wouldn't be at all sad to see McDonald's go out of business. Yes, I think that McDonald's owner(s), executives, and shareholders are getting rich off the backs of the millions of underpaid workers they employ. However, how precisely does Walt no longer eating at McDonald's have *anything* to do with addressing the questions he raised? Perhaps, more importantly, what is your position on and what are you doing about the issues he raised? Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 09:49:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:49:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> <4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C866D12.000010.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Pretty close there Adam. I define them as looking at how they are alike and not how they are different. At first there were few, about the same as the number of citizens on this list, and they didn't even have a website. When they put up their webpage they had about 100 members, yet in not long a time they turned out over a hundred thousand demonstrators at Washington. Members were mostly retirees with funds to help, so they were self supporting. The Coffee party started this year with one person and now has about 125,000 supporters. Their problem preventing faster growth is they support the president and advocate cooperation with anything he wants to do. Lately, because that isn't really working, they are losing supporters to the Tea Party which is working. So even there they have a few common agreements. Finally, how hard is it to get democrats, republicans, libertarians, independents, greens, and more, to set down and agree on a single point? Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 09/07/10 07:30:25 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios David, While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the Libertarian Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party hasn't really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You have people who are religious social conservatives all the way to libertarian social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer clear of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti-incumbent stands. They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never done politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm glad to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really love this group. But remember back to when you first started to become aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and pretty as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how to be politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get bored and go back to their lives. Adam David Morelli wrote: > Alan, > > If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian Party. > > There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea Parties and Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and support going from APF to the tea party groups. > > Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. > > If you are interested in what the government would look like should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make assumptions. > > I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their training. > > Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton administration. > > David > > > Funding for APF comes from David Koch, > On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > >> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is appealing >> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they get to >> washington. >> ======= >> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party sure as >> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >> >> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >> roses _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/e81944f6/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 09:50:59 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:50:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net><4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com><3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> <984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <6EEAB780-571A-4B7E-B9BA-8858B5F52DD4@teleport.com> Eh? So what's that got to with anything? McDonald's is gone (for the moment) and I never eat there anyhow (a little greaseburger goes a Looong way)... Or did you think you were answering some other, humorous thread? I assure you, there ain't much to laugh about here... WW On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:26 AM, Steve wrote: > So quit eating at McDonald's. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:15:54 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > Well, yeah, Adam, I agree, the Tea Party folks will have to get > educated-- and in a hurry. > And you can't discuss economic issues without also discussing social > and religious issues. > For instance, how can the economy be strengthened as long as so many > people have no jobs? > How can societal norms be preserved when the middle class is > shrinking instead of expanding? > How can the nation be defended when our all-volunteer military is > overextended and running on borrowed money? > How can we have freedom of belief, when one "brand" of religion > insists upon dictating public morality? > How can we claim to be a "moral" society, when people can be > marginalized, denounced or discarded as "the Other" because of their > religion or lack of same, their mental health, their income level, > their physical disabilities, their sexual orientation or national > origin? > How can we individuals direct our nation's politics through our > votes, when giant corporations are granted "personhood" which frees > them from individual responsibility for their actions, yet allows > them to pour unlimited funds into national elections, and to > monopolize public debate? > How can we control our borders, when so many industries are eager to > hire desperate, low-paid, intimidated employees who can be abused > without fear of reprisal or retaliation? > And finally, how can we have national prosperity and realize the > "American Dream" when a tiny minority of the population controls over > 90 percent of the nation's wealth-- a percentage that continues to > grow, even while American jobs are being shipped overseas? > Hard questions, those. but critical for our nation's survival as > America the Free. > Face it, a simplistic feel-good platform of "lower taxes and throw > the bums out" isn't going to solve our real problems. If Tea Party > candidates run-- and win-- on a platform like that, then we will > indeed get "the government we deserve." > WW > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> David, >> >> While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the >> Libertarian >> Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party >> hasn't >> really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political >> party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The >> meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are >> generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You >> have >> people who are religious social conservatives all the way to >> libertarian >> social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer >> clear >> of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti- >> incumbent stands. >> >> They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never >> done >> politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. >> Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, >> educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm >> glad >> to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really >> love this group. But remember back to when you first started to >> become >> aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and >> pretty >> as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information >> given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of >> the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how >> to be >> politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get >> bored and go back to their lives. >> >> Adam >> >> David Morelli wrote: >>> Alan, >>> >>> If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian >>> Party. >>> >>> There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea >>> Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and >>> support going from APF to the tea party groups. >>> >>> Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the >>> Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of >>> Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for >>> Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from >>> oil. >>> >>> If you are interested in what the government would look like >>> should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make >>> assumptions. >>> >>> I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their >>> training. >>> >>> Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would >>> expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton >>> administration. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> Funding for APF comes from David Koch, >>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is >>>> appealing >>>> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they >>>> get to >>>> washington. >>>> ======= >>>> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party >>>> sure as >>>> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >>>> >>>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>>> roses _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 09:55:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:55:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Mon, 06 Sep 2010 22:36:49 -0700 Message-ID: <4343-4C866E86-1376@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> If Fred Dalton runs in 2012, and no matter what ticket he represents ... I shall vote for him! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/80531887/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 10:00:47 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:00:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4343-4C866E86-1376@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4343-4C866E86-1376@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: What's a Fred Dalton? Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 9:55 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios If Fred Dalton runs in 2012, and no matter what ticket he represents ... I shall vote for him! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 10:05:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:05:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. It is in his power to prove them wrong. The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would embarrass the president. Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without discovery without embarrassing the president? Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? What is the difference? That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are the judges in Obama's pocket? If so, that is a huge problem. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that fashion. On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in > Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) > "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking > about me like a dog" > > Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? > > Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. > > don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Debra Bratland > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- > taking the majority." > > Hi Walt - > > The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but > unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. > I get > really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup > either. > > Deb Bratland > > > On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning >> the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not >> "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the >> people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long >> as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the >> thought that most readily comes to mind. >> WW > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/a8db53f5/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 10:09:35 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:09:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios References: <4339-4C866CAE-4787@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C8671CB.00001C.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Thanks Hoss. I'll watch my special plants. Don't know how many, but many members of the Tea Party are independents. They take anybody who supports good government. Missed you. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/7/2010 9:48:29 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] an speaking of curios ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/79559f57/attachment-0001.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 10:13:17 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 10:13:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] another typo In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:00:47 -0700 Message-ID: <4340-4C8672AD-3651@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mr Ed asked ... What is a Fred Dalton? Well read this and find out ... http://tinyurl.com/Fred-D-Thompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/4ee30352/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 10:30:10 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:30:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net> <4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com> <3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C8676A2.4010206@gmail.com> This is why I don't consider the Tea Party a political party but more of a movement. Movements come and go depending on the interest of the people involved or the charisma of their leader. Political parties stay. Adam Walt Wentz wrote: > Well, yeah, Adam, I agree, the Tea Party folks will have to get > educated-- and in a hurry. > And you can't discuss economic issues without also discussing social > and religious issues. > For instance, how can the economy be strengthened as long as so many > people have no jobs? > How can societal norms be preserved when the middle class is > shrinking instead of expanding? > How can the nation be defended when our all-volunteer military is > overextended and running on borrowed money? > How can we have freedom of belief, when one "brand" of religion > insists upon dictating public morality? > How can we claim to be a "moral" society, when people can be > marginalized, denounced or discarded as "the Other" because of their > religion or lack of same, their mental health, their income level, > their physical disabilities, their sexual orientation or national > origin? > How can we individuals direct our nation's politics through our > votes, when giant corporations are granted "personhood" which frees > them from individual responsibility for their actions, yet allows > them to pour unlimited funds into national elections, and to > monopolize public debate? > How can we control our borders, when so many industries are eager to > hire desperate, low-paid, intimidated employees who can be abused > without fear of reprisal or retaliation? > And finally, how can we have national prosperity and realize the > "American Dream" when a tiny minority of the population controls over > 90 percent of the nation's wealth-- a percentage that continues to > grow, even while American jobs are being shipped overseas? > Hard questions, those. but critical for our nation's survival as > America the Free. > Face it, a simplistic feel-good platform of "lower taxes and throw > the bums out" isn't going to solve our real problems. If Tea Party > candidates run-- and win-- on a platform like that, then we will > indeed get "the government we deserve." > WW > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> David, >> >> While it's true that the Tea Party may come closest to the Libertarian >> Party, that is only on economic issues. But since the Tea Party >> hasn't >> really made a stand on social issues they are not really a political >> party yet, just a group of people dissatisfied with government. The >> meetings and events I have gone to and the people I have met are >> generally economic conservative but socially all over the map. You >> have >> people who are religious social conservatives all the way to >> libertarian >> social liberals. Since this would be a dividing point they steer >> clear >> of social issues and stick with the popular anti-tax, anti- >> incumbent stands. >> >> They are clearly not anarchists, just average people who have never >> done >> politics before and are now realizing that just voting is not enough. >> Voting is important but being a good American means being involved, >> educated and speaking up. I have known this for many years and I'm >> glad >> to see that many people on this list do as well, this is why I really >> love this group. But remember back to when you first started to >> become >> aware, involved, concerned. It probably wasn't as graceful and pretty >> as it is for you know. You learned how to look at the information >> given, develop your opinion and how to state it effectively. Many of >> the Tea Party people are like this, brand new and not aware of how >> to be >> politically active. Give them time, they will learn or they will get >> bored and go back to their lives. >> >> Adam >> >> David Morelli wrote: >> >>> Alan, >>> >>> If they are close to a third party, I would guess the Libertarian >>> Party. >>> >>> There appears to be a symbiotic relationship between the Tea >>> Parties and "Americans for Prosperity Foundation". Funding and >>> support going from APF to the tea party groups. >>> >>> Back in 1980 I voted for Ed Clark when he ran for President on the >>> Libertarian Party ticket. His V.P. candidate was David H. Koch of >>> Koch Enterprises. The same David Koch who funds Americans for >>> Prosperity Foundation. The same David Koch who makes money from oil. >>> >>> If you are interested in what the government would look like >>> should the tea party have a dominant voice, you will need to make >>> assumptions. >>> >>> I don't claim to know, but Koch likes them enough to finance their >>> training. >>> >>> Based upon the connection between Koch and Tea Parties, I would >>> expect a return to the Big Oil focus of the Arbusto-Haliburton >>> administration. >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> Funding for APF comes from David Koch, >>> On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Steve says ...The concept of a new coalition running things is >>>> appealing >>>> to me. I feel that it would be the status quo by the time they >>>> get to >>>> washington. >>>> ======= >>>> Never thought I would sort of agree with Steve... The Tea Party >>>> sure as >>>> heck can't do any worse than what is in play now... >>>> >>>> ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! >>>> roses _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Sep 7 11:00:20 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:00:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> > From: donkelly > > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. Getting caught up in proving all the lies wrong (in some cases nigh on impossible to do as proving something doesn't exist that doesn't actually exist is difficult indeed) is a distraction and a waste of time and energy. It's better that he spends his time on trying to address the economy and other pertinent issues of our nation. You'd find a way to make him wrong if he defended himself too. > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. That's an interesting twist of the truth. The trial wasn't Lakin vs Obama. It was Lakin vs the US Army. Lakin is charged with disobeying orders. The Army judge ruled that Lakin's claims that Obama is somehow connected to Lakin's case and behavior was ruled null. Lakin is a disgrace and deserves whatever time he gets in the hole for his unfounded activism. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38982059/ns/us_news-life/ > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. There aren't any constitutional grounds. Orly Taitz already exhausted all those angles and was thrown out of court on her ear for doing so. Lakin certainly isn't going to get anywhere in the Army Judicial system using the same approach. > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, > would embarrass the president. Nonsense! What the judge actually said was "any evidence or witnesses related to Obama's citizenship is irrelevant to the charges against Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin". The judge went on to say that "any contention that any orders are invalid if the president is ineligible 'is erroneous'". http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/02/birther.court.martial/ > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges > without discovery without embarrassing the president? No, the guy can't defend himself because he doesn't have a reasonable defense for his actions. He messed up. He disobeyed legal orders. Now he gets to face the consequences for his actions. > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? Doubtful. What sort of parallel are you trying to draw between Obama and Capone? > That inability to defend one's self is > unconstitutional. Please cite the specific part of the Constitution you use to arrive at that conclusion. > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality > of discovery. The Constitution doesn't protect "discovery". The judge actually ruled on the defenses claims from a Constitutional perspective. "The prosecutors in the case argued that Obama's eligibility is not relevant because the officers who ordered Lakin to go to Fort Campbell and then ordered him to answer questions about why he didn't go were his proper superiors in the military chain of command, and they gave him legal orders. Jensen later conceded that point. The judge ruled that the matter of Obama's eligibility is not relevant because he did not give any orders in the case. She pointed out that while the president is commander-in- chief of the military, it is Congress that is constitutionally empowered to raise armies, pay them and equip them." Even Lakin's lawyer agrees. > Are the judges in Obama's pocket? Lakin was tried by "one of his own", an Army judge, not in a civilian court. Surely you don't think Obama's "evil influence" has stretched that far, do you? Nevermind, I already know the answer to that question. Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 11:34:23 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:34:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party In-Reply-To: Adam Mayer 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 10:30:10 -0700 Message-ID: <13930-4C8685AF-346@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I do not think that they can muddy up the waters any more than the original part did in the 1750's It has been raining for about an hour up here, ad as I said before ... I'm build a url web site fro this season.... and between Mr Ed you will be kept well informed.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/e289b6b1/attachment.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 11:35:44 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 18:35:44 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <001801cb4eac$6e6eaec0$4b4c0c40$@com> References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net><4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com><3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com><984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><001801cb4eac$6e6eaec0$4b4c0c40$@com> Message-ID: <67848913-1283884546-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-271157877-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I told folks I would use it next time they complained about corporations. What are the dems or reps doing about those issues? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Howden Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:47:58 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Reply-To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > From: Steve > > So quit eating at McDonald's. Quit pointing the finger and realize that when you do there are four more pointing back at you. Yeah, I think fewer people should eat at McDonald's. Yes, I think McDonald's shouldn't be allowed to sell the food they do, contributing to the epidemic of obesity that is partially responsible for our skyrocketing healthcare costs. Yes, I wouldn't be at all sad to see McDonald's go out of business. Yes, I think that McDonald's owner(s), executives, and shareholders are getting rich off the backs of the millions of underpaid workers they employ. However, how precisely does Walt no longer eating at McDonald's have *anything* to do with addressing the questions he raised? Perhaps, more importantly, what is your position on and what are you doing about the issues he raised? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 11:36:45 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:36:45 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> Message-ID: <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Do you mean like securing the borders in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas? Do you mean like reducing the level of medical care for seniors while also increasing their costs, and increasing the taxes of everyone to support reduced services? Do you mean like increasing the cost of utilities by $2,000 per year, while not removing one ton of pollutants from the atmosphere? Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide who lives and who dies, to reduce the costs of health care? Do you mean by putting 35 cronies on the government payroll, as Czars making six figure salaries, during a bad economy, without approval, or funding, from congress? Do you mean by turning state problems over to the UN for resolution? Do you mean by forming his own private army, as well staffed and equipt as the regular army, to do his bidding? Do you mean by blowing eleven trillion dollars without commensurate affect, except driving every American deeper into the abyss of debt. Do you men by dismissing the charge of the birthers by stating on national TV that, "A president doesn't need a birth certificate"? Do you mean by dissing our friends in Israel? Do you mean by supporting a mosque being built at ground zero? Do you mean, "when push comes to shove, I'll support the Muslims"? Do you mean, by blaming all government problems on Bush? If not, what do you mean Jeff? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 9/7/2010 11:00:44 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > From: donkelly > > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. Getting caught up in proving all the lies wrong (in some cases nigh on impossible to do as proving something doesn't exist that doesn't actually exist is difficult indeed) is a distraction and a waste of time and energy. It's better that he spends his time on trying to address the economy and other pertinent issues of our nation. You'd find a way to make him wrong if he defended himself too. > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. That's an interesting twist of the truth. The trial wasn't Lakin vs Obama. It was Lakin vs the US Army. Lakin is charged with disobeying orders. The Army judge ruled that Lakin's claims that Obama is somehow connected to Lakin's case and behavior was ruled null. Lakin is a disgrace and deserves whatever time he gets in the hole for his unfounded activism. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38982059/ns/us_news-life/ > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. There aren't any constitutional grounds. Orly Taitz already exhausted all those angles and was thrown out of court on her ear for doing so. Lakin certainly isn't going to get anywhere in the Army Judicial system using the same approach. > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, > would embarrass the president. Nonsense! What the judge actually said was "any evidence or witnesses related to Obama's citizenship is irrelevant to the charges against Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin". The judge went on to say that "any contention that any orders are invalid if the president is ineligible 'is erroneous'". http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/02/birther.court.martial/ > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges > without discovery without embarrassing the president? No, the guy can't defend himself because he doesn't have a reasonable defense for his actions. He messed up. He disobeyed legal orders. Now he gets to face the consequences for his actions. > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? Doubtful. What sort of parallel are you trying to draw between Obama and Capone? > That inability to defend one's self is > unconstitutional. Please cite the specific part of the Constitution you use to arrive at that conclusion. > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality > of discovery. The Constitution doesn't protect "discovery". The judge actually ruled on the defenses claims from a Constitutional perspective. "The prosecutors in the case argued that Obama's eligibility is not relevant because the officers who ordered Lakin to go to Fort Campbell and then ordered him to answer questions about why he didn't go were his proper superiors in the military chain of command, and they gave him legal orders. Jensen later conceded that point. The judge ruled that the matter of Obama's eligibility is not relevant because he did not give any orders in the case. She pointed out that while the president is commander-in- chief of the military, it is Congress that is constitutionally empowered to raise armies, pay them and equip them." Even Lakin's lawyer agrees. > Are the judges in Obama's pocket? Lakin was tried by "one of his own", an Army judge, not in a civilian court. Surely you don't think Obama's "evil influence" has stretched that far, do you? Nevermind, I already know the answer to that question. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/c2d66713/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 11:40:48 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:40:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party In-Reply-To: <13930-4C8685AF-346@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13930-4C8685AF-346@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <62B26CE90EC14FF680C4888A2AED126A@EdDaviePC> Can you read "yellow on white"? I can't Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:34 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party I do not think that they can muddy up the waters any more than the original part did in the 1750's It has been raining for about an hour up here, ad as I said before ... I'm build a url web site fro this season.... and between Mr Ed you will be kept well informed.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses Sigs by Anna -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 11:42:08 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:42:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. Message-ID: <13924-4C868780-5980@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 11:43:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <360744F3-CE08-4EF5-B3D9-C592D91579B1@teleport.com> On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his privacy irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be President? > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or documentation Obama provides, his detractors will always call them false, fabricated, forged, etc. > > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given by his superiors, he can be held to that oath. > > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds > > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would > embarrass the > president. > I doubt it. > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without > discovery > without embarrassing the president? Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn-out and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. > > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the right wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing evidence against the President's citizenship. > > What is the difference? Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal Sicilian crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and made crime into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely elected President of the United States, who has been struggling to undo the corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and has been hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self-declared "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences there? > > That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. Yep... But the President and other high public officials not protected by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. > > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are > the > judges in Obama's pocket? Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... WW > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, > propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently > promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the > display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an > "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be > smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that > fashion. > > On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >> about me like a dog" >> >> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >> >> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >> >> don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Debra Bratland >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >> taking the majority." >> >> Hi Walt - >> >> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >> I get >> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup >> either. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning >>> the economy around," not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not >>> "bringing American jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the >>> people who elect them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So >>> long >>> as that is their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the >>> thought that most readily comes to mind. >>> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 11:45:09 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:45:09 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <15885-4C841B0A-4078@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net><85B433E7-0447-4067-8232-3EB6273834D1@verizon.net><4C864C57.9040504@gmail.com><3CCD2707-CB43-4D0F-B07E-465EC4D77DFF@teleport.com><984009101-1283876791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1442531063-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><001801cb4eac$6e6eaec0$4b4c0c40$@com> <67848913-1283884546-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-271157877-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4C868831.00003A.03336@DON-B2514E06367> They are not doing anything that Americans by majority will want. They are the issue. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steve Date: 9/7/2010 11:36:11 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios I told folks I would use it next time they complained about corporations. What are the dems or reps doing about those issues? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Howden Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:47:58 To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Reply-To: jeff at jeffhowden.com, Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > From: Steve > > So quit eating at McDonald's. Quit pointing the finger and realize that when you do there are four more pointing back at you. Yeah, I think fewer people should eat at McDonald's. Yes, I think McDonald's shouldn't be allowed to sell the food they do, contributing to the epidemic of obesity that is partially responsible for our skyrocketing healthcare costs. Yes, I wouldn't be at all sad to see McDonald's go out of business. Yes, I think that McDonald's owner(s), executives, and shareholders are getting rich off the backs of the millions of underpaid workers they employ. However, how precisely does Walt no longer eating at McDonald's have *anything* to do with addressing the questions he raised? Perhaps, more importantly, what is your position on and what are you doing about the issues he raised? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/35e56734/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Sep 7 11:58:38 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:58:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Walt wrote: "I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again...: Dear Walt: In Outlook e-mail, go to the Delete Section of the Home tab, click on the junk icon, click "block sender," then affirm on the pop-up screen. Voila! Join the happy group... --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:43 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his privacy irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be President? > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or documentation Obama provides, his detractors will always call them false, fabricated, forged, etc. > > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given by his superiors, he can be held to that oath. > > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds > > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would > embarrass the president. > I doubt it. > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without > discovery without embarrassing the president? Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn-out and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. > > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the right wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing evidence against the President's citizenship. > > What is the difference? Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal Sicilian crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and made crime into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely elected President of the United States, who has been struggling to undo the corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and has been hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self-declared "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences there? > > That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. Yep... But the President and other high public officials not protected by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. > > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are > the judges in Obama's pocket? Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... WW > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, > propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently > promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the > display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an > "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be > smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that > fashion. > > On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >> about me like a dog" >> >> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >> >> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >> >> don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Debra Bratland >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >> taking the majority." >> >> Hi Walt - >> >> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >> I get >> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup >> either. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy around," >>> not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American >>> jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect >>> them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is >>> their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that >>> most readily comes to mind. >>> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 12:00:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:00:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. References: <13924-4C868780-5980@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C868BDB.00003F.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Tour of the planets is good. Kids are almost universally interested in the solar system. Someone needs to remind the editor that there are eight (not nine) planets. And little is said of much larger bodies well beyond the dwarf planet Pluto Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/7/2010 11:42:16 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/73bca4f7/attachment.gif From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Sep 7 12:05:53 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:05:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB93A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Here's the problem-dump the 20th century: See below... --Mike From: Media Matters for America [mailto:info at mediamatters.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:04 PM To: Steele, Mike Subject: Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century To UNSUBSCRIBE from Media Matters for America emails, click here: http://mediamatters.org/users/unsubscribe?u=d5b35368a81d7606c3b30a9b9d30e70a&rid=53030894. [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/email/2007-item/masthead.gif] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century http://mediamatters.org/research/201009070031 Since President Obama's election, Fox personalities have expressed opposition to or called for the repeal of virtually every progressive achievement of the 20th century, including Social Security, Medicare, the Americans with Disabilities Act, portions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the 16th and 17th Amendments to the Constitution. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid 17th Amendment 16th Amendment Americans with Disabilities Act Civil Rights Act of 1964 Voting Rights Act of 1965 Nuclear arms control Abortion rights Labor unions Department of Education Unemployment insurance Environmental Protection Agency Progressive taxation Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid Social Security is a federal social insurance program funded through payroll taxes that provides benefits to the elderly and disabled and their survivors. It was signed into law by President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935. Medicare and Medicaid were established by the Social Security Act of 1965, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson. They provide health insurance to the elderly and the poor. All three programs have been defended by progressives and opposed by conservatives for decades. Beck: Social Security and Medicare "represent socialism and should have never been created." On the January 27 edition of his Fox News program, Glenn Beck said: Do you think programs like Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created in the first place? Oh, gosh, Democrats, this is a scary question. Another trap. You know what? It's only scary if you don't know who you are or what you believe in. I'm an American. I read. I believe in the Constitution. And, of course, Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created. Since FDR and his progressive buddies started Social Security, not our Founding Fathers, that should be fairly obvious to people. Beck's "Plan": Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are "going away." On the April 12 edition of his Fox News program, promoting the next day's show about his "Plan" for entitlement spending, Beck said: "Tomorrow, we're going to roll up our sleeves and begin. We're going to cut health care. Right now, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are 40 percent of our budget. They're going away. It's going to be ugly, a lot of crying, but America needs a cure." Tucker Carlson: "Unfortunately" Republicans won't "state unequivocally" they "want to do away with" Medicare and "most" Social Security. On the April 19 edition of Fox News' Hannity (accessed from the Nexis database), Fox News contributor Bob Beckel asked Fox News contributor Tucker Carlson, "Why don't you just state unequivocally that you want to do away with Medicare, which is what the Republicans want to do, and do away with most Social Security?" Carlson replied, "Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, most Republicans in positions of elected authority are unwilling to -- are unwilling to look right in the camera and say, 'We're going to have to pull back on entitlements.' " Bolling is glad the young will have to work rather than rely on the "Ponzi scheme" of Social Security. On the July 24 edition of Fox News' Bulls & Bears, Fox Business host Eric Bolling said that "it's good" that a poll indicates that many young adults don't expect to receive Social Security -- which he called a "Ponzi scheme" -- because "they realize that they're not going to be able to suck at the teat of the nanny state too much longer, get off their butt, work, put some money away, and not have to rely on a system that's going to fold probably by the time they collect a check." On the August 14, 2009, edition of Fox News' The Live Desk, Bolling said "they should rename it the Madoff Social Security system." Hannity relentlessly pushes false claim that Social Security and Medicare are "bankrupt." Since January 1, Sean Hannity has falsely claimed that Social Security is "bankrupt" or will shortly become bankrupt at least ten times, and falsely claimed Medicare is "bankrupt" or on the verge of bankruptcy at least 11 times. In fact, according to the 2010 report from the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds, Social Security is estimated to pay out full benefits "by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about 75 percent of scheduled benefits through 2084." The report likewise says of Medicare, "The projected date of HI [Hospital Insurance] Trust Fund exhaustion is 2029 ... at which time dedicated revenues would be sufficient to pay 85 percent of HI costs. The share of HI expenditures that can be financed with HI dedicated revenues is projected to decline slowly to 76 percent in 2045 and then to rise slowly, reaching 89 percent in 2084." 17th Amendment The 17th Amendment provides for the direct election of U.S. Senators, rather than their selection by state legislators. It was passed by Congress with the support of progressives and submitted to the states in 1912 under President William Howard Taft. It was ratified under President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Recently, tea party activists and Republican members of Congress have called for its repeal. Napolitano: "I would repeal the 17th Amendment." In an interview with Reason magazine published April 8, Fox Business host Andrew Napolitano was asked what he considered "the single most important reform." He replied, "I would repeal the 17th Amendment," which he called "unconstitutional" because it "abolished bicameralism." He added that the amendment "was an assault, an invasion on the infrastructure of constitutional government." Huckabee: 17th Amendment "one of the dumbest things we ever did." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Fox News host Mike Huckabee said that Republicans should consider calling for the repeal of the 16th Amendment, then said that we should "talk about -- this is one of those things that senators would never agree, but one of the dumbest things we ever did in this country was the 17th Amendment." He added: The original Constitution and the way we operated for the first 120 years of our existence, senators were appointed by state legislators to represent the broader interests of the states to make sure the federal government didn't take too much power into itself. And most people don't even remember that. But we have had an increasing problem of too much centralization of federal power at the expense of local and state governments -- the antithesis of our Constitution -- because we've put all this power in the popular election of senators and representatives. Beck: Wilson "supported" amendment, "when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing!" On the June 11 edition of his Fox News show, Beck said of the 17th Amendment, "Like all bad things it started in 1913, Woodrow Wilson yet again. He supported this. Immediately now, when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing! You can be quite certain that something is not going to have a good outcome if Woodrow Wilson was involved." He also commented that "Thomas Jefferson warned about" direct representation, and said that that absent the 17th Amendment, "Obama's health care bill would have never seen the light of day. A lot of things that they do in Washington would never have seen the light of day. Why? Because it wouldn't in the interest of your state." Beck later added that "it's taken them over 200 years to remove all those roadblocks, but they're almost done. Maybe it's time to put a few of them back." 16th Amendment The 16th Amendment allows Congress to collect income taxes. It was passed by Congress and submitted to the states in 1909 and ratified in 1913, both under President Taft. Republican congressmen have called for the amendment's repeal. Huckabee: "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Huckabee said, "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment, which authorizes the IRS." Napolitano has repeatedly called for "floating" a constitutional amendment that "abolishes the 16th Amendment." On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck (accessed from Nexis), Napolitano said, "How about floating a constitutional amendment amongst the states? Let's rescind the 16th Amendment. That's the income tax. If 25, 30 states start thinking about it and talking about it seriously, the Congress will take note because they will be scared to death it will starve them out of existence. And they won't be able to regulate progressively or retrogressively how we live." Likewise, on the May 6, 2009, edition of The Glenn Beck Program, asked by Beck about "this solution that you and I have talked about on a constitutional amendment, or a threat of a constitutional amendment," Napolitano said: If two-thirds of the states ask the Congress to call a constitutional convention to consider the adoption of this amendment, which I'll describe in a moment, as it gets closer and closer to the two-thirds necessary and Congress would be required to call the convention, you'll see some reaction on the part of congress to attempt to placate the states that want to call this. Now, the constitutional amendment is a simple one. It simply abolishes the 16th Amendment and states affirmatively that Congress shall have no power to tax the personal incomes of individual persons. If that were enacted, it would starve the federal government back into the original footprint that the founders intended for it. But as it gets closer to enactment, Congress will have to do something for fear that it might be enacted. Americans with Disabilities Act The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), originally sponsored by Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) and then-Representative Tony Coehlo (D-CA) and signed by President George H.W. Bush, "prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in employment, transportation, public accommodation, communications, and governmental activities." Recently, it has been attacked by conservative pundits and candidates. Stossel: "well-intentioned" ADA "unleashed a landslide of lawsuits," "requires that people be treated unequally." In his September 1 column, Stossel attacked the ADA, saying that it "requires that people be treated unequally" by requiring employers to accommodate disabled employees. He added: The law has also unleashed a landslide of lawsuits by "professional litigants" who file a hundred suits at a time. Disabled people visit businesses to look for violations, but instead of simply asking that a violation be corrected, they partner with lawyers who (legally) extort settlement money from the businesses. Stossel: ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." On the September 2 edition of Fox & Friends, Stossel said that the ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." Stossel said that "all these laws mean well," but that "these laws always have unintended consequences, and often they are worse than the good that the law was supposed to do." Civil Rights Act of 1964 The Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- signed by President Lyndon Johnson and opposed by then-Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater -- "prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal." Stossel calls for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights Act. On the May 20 edition of Fox News' America Live, Stossel said that "it's time now to repeal" the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act, which outlaws discrimination by private businesses, "because private business ought to get to discriminate." Stossel repeatedly defended his advocacy for a right to discriminate. Stossel reiterated his call to eliminate the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act in two FoxBusiness.com blog posts, on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, and in his syndicated column. Voting Rights Act of 1965 The Voting Rights Act of 1965, signed by President Johnson after he "issued a call for a strong voting rights law," outlawed a number of discriminatory voting practices, including requiring literacy tests as a prerequisite for voting. Briggs: Enforcement of Voting Rights Act "not a proper use of funds." During the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, guest host Dave Briggs claimed that the Department of Justice "is demanding" that election officials in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, "print ballots in Spanish," and said, "The cost, again, $500,000 estimated, for what some say is 6,000 voters, which does sound like not a proper use of funds." He then asked a guest, "But, beyond that, I mean, do you think this is something that is absolutely required, is necessary, in our country?" According to media reports, at issue is a provision of federal law originally enacted in the Voting Rights Act explicitly protecting the right to vote of Puerto Rican voters educated in U.S. schools regardless of their ability to understand English. Nuclear arms control For decades, presidents of both parties negotiated and signed treaties with the Soviet Union (later Russia) to reduce the nuclear arsenals of both nations. President Ronald Reagan, who signed the START I treaty, repeatedly stated that his "ultimate goal" was the "total elimination of nuclear weapons." More recently, conservatives have panned President Obama's new START treaty, which would further reduce nuclear arsenals, and even questioned the importance of nuclear reductions in the first place. Hannity: "We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons," "we can never return to a world" without them. In Sean Hannity's 2010 book, Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: [W]e must be committed to retaining our position as the world's greatest superpower, by maintaining the world's strongest military and supporting our troops on and off the battlefield. We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons and must persist in perfecting our strategic missile defenses. [Page 222] He also writes: Conservatives, on the other hand, recognize that we live in a dangerous world, and that the world will always be dangerous because human beings are fallen. The nuclear genie is out of the bottle; the world has changed; much as we would like, we can never return to a world without nuclear weapons. [Page 209] Abortion rights In the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court held that the constitutional right to privacy extends to a woman's decision to have an abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy, and in the second and third trimesters under certain circumstances. Since then, progressives have traditionally argued in favor of the decision and the right it preserved, while conservatives have opposed it. Napolitano compared Roe v. Wade to Dred Scott case. On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck, Napolitano said: Dred Scott is a slave who was taken to a free state, Illinois, and while there, sues for his freedom. The case goes up and down, up and down. It finally goes to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court could have said slavery is lawful. The Supreme Court could have said all human beings are free and he's free. Instead it said, blacks are not persons and therefore don't have the right to bring lawsuits. This horrific determination by a court that a class of human beings are denied personhood -- fast forward a hundred years -- is the same logic the Supreme Court used in Roe versus Wade -- babies in the wombs are not persons. Hannity calls for "protecting the lives of the innocent unborn" by "striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges." In Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: I certainly can't, in good conscience, make a raw political calculation about protecting the lives of the innocent unborn as casually as if we were talking about a no-smoking ban in a restaurant. We must continue to press for restrictions on abortion (such as parental notification) while striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges and continuing our nonpolitical efforts to persuade Americans of the horrors and immorality of abortion. [Page 152] Ingraham: "49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible." On the June 4, 2009, edition of The O'Reilly Factor, contributor Laura Ingraham said (accessed from Nexis): [W]hen you talk about the issue of abortion, and someone killing an abortion doctor, that allows you to create sympathy for the entire abortion movement. And 60,000 dead as you pointed out by the hands of George Tiller. Five abortion doctors have been killed since Roe versus Wade. Five. Now it's horrible, but 49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible. O'Reilly repeatedly called Dr. Tiller "the baby killer." On numerous instances in 2009, Bill O'Reilly referred to Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller as "Tiller the baby killer." After Tiller's murder, O'Reilly repeatedly falsely claimed that he had only "reported" anti-abortion groups referring to Tiller in that fashion. Labor unions In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt signed the National Labor Relations Act "to protect the rights of employees and employers, to encourage collective bargaining, and to curtail certain private sector labor and management practices." Labor unions have long been part of the progressive coalition, while conservatives have worked to limit their right to bargain collectively. Regular Fox segment: "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Fox News and Fox Business regularly run segments titled, "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Varney: Unions are "the antithesis of freedom," "fortunately" private sector unions "have retreated," but public sector unions are still a "problem." On the September 4 edition of Fox Business' Freedom Watch, asked by Napolitano for his "observations from your native country in England" about whether "unions help or hurt the average worker," Varney replied: "Unions were a disaster for the British economy. They are the antithesis of freedom. They impose rigid workplace rules that have no place in a modern economy." Later, Varney commented: "Fortunately, unions have retreated in the private sector. It is in the public sector where they rule, and that is the nature of some of our problems." He added that "taxpayers" and "the concept of freedom and liberty" "suffer" from the existence of unions. Kristol: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." On the October 18, 2009, edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, contributor Bill Kristol declared: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." Beck says unions have "raped" police and fire fighters. On the August 4 edition of his radio program, Glenn Beck said of unions: "Look what they've done to the police and firemen. They've raped these guys. Along with politicians. Along with politicians -- raped them. The bravest among us." Beck went on to ask, "What, do you think the politicians are not in bed with the unions?" Beck blames unions for woes of local governments and industries. On the February 25 edition of The Glenn Beck Program, Beck blamed unions for the financial woes of local governments, the auto industry, airlines, schools, the steel industry, and the textile industry. He continued: "Mr. President, until you get the unions out of this business, I don't think we have anything to talk about." Beck regularly attacks union members as "thugs." On numerous occasions on both his Fox News and radio programs, Beck has referred to union members as "thugs" or "enforcers." Carlson blames cost of living in NYC on "union pensions" and "raising taxes" for "schools." On the August 5 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson asserted that the cost of living in New York City, California, and Honolulu is "so expensive" "because of union pensions; because of raising costs for other things; for raising taxes along the way for schools." Carlson concluded: "If you go back in history and look at who incorporated a lot of that, maybe the blame comes right back to the same party. Or maybe it doesn't." Cavuto tells union spokesman: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there." During the January 11 edition of Your World, Stewart Acuff of the Utility Workers Union of America appeared to discuss union leader opposition to a tax on health care plans backed by President Obama. Host Neil Cavuto told Acuff: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there, 'cause you're such a decent guy, but you're saying 'Mr. President, may I remind you that you are sitting in this room because of us.' Which is a very nice way of saying, 'Tread slowly, big guy.' " Cavuto likened unions to Hurricane Earl on a "collision course on our towns." During the September 2 edition of Your World, Cavuto compared unions to Hurricane Earl, saying, "The monster and the mess. Your World on top of Earl's collision course with our coast and what could be unions' collision course with our towns." Cavuto added: "And get ready for Earl's wallop and, to hear some state and local governments tell it, unions' direct hit on their wallet." Department of Education The Department of Education was established by President Jimmy Carter in 1979 and serves to "to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access." Conservatives have long called for the Department's dissolution. Beck's "Plan": "[A]bolish the Department of Education." On the April 14 edition of his Fox News show, while detailing his "Plan" for the U.S. budget, Beck said: "We need to get control of our schools back to the parents, back to the states. The best way to do this is to abolish the Department of Education. We certainly don't need to be giving them more money. The federal government should only be responsible for the things that the states cannot do." Unemployment insurance The Federal Unemployment Tax Act, signed by President Roosevelt in 1939, together with the Social Security Act of 1935, established the modern U.S. system of unemployment insurance, in which employers pay payroll taxes to the federal and state governments which are used by the states to finance benefits to those who become unemployed through no fault of their own. Conservatives have often attacked the system of unemployment insurance as well as those who receive unemployment benefits. Varney seizes on claim that "unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9.5 percent," if Congress hadn't "extended unemployment benefits." On the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, Varney cited a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Harvard economics professor and Hoover Institute senior fellow Robert Barro to claim that, in Varney's words, "If we had not extended unemployment benefits to 99 weeks from the standard 26 weeks, [Barro] says, unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9.5 percent." According to Varney, Barro argued that "you extend benefits like this, and it discourages people from going out to look for work especially, you know, the start of the benefit period, because it's nearly two years." Barro's theory and similar claims -- that extending unemployment benefits in the current recession provide a disincentive for people to find work -- have been widely disputed by experts. Kilmeade: "Maybe" eliminating "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up" and get jobs. On the July 15 edition of Fox & Friends, referencing Senate Republicans who had blocked extending unemployment benefits, co-host Brian Kilmeade told Partnership Staffing Inc. CEO Bill Auchmoody that "maybe" the elimination of "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up and take some of your offers." Hannity falsely suggested Fed said unemployment benefit extension increased ranks of those without jobs. On the February 22 edition of his show, Hannity claimed that the economic recovery act "actually raised unemployment," citing minutes from a January Federal Reserve meeting to falsely suggest that the extension of unemployment benefits in the recovery act increased the number of people who don't have jobs. In fact, the Federal Reserve minutes Hannity cited actually stated that the provision had the effect of raising the measured unemployment rate because people who lost their jobs sought to remain in the workforce in order to receive benefits rather than leaving the workforce and being counted as "discouraged workers" instead of "unemployed." Bolling: Unemployment benefits are about "allowing someone to stay out of work for longer." On the February 11 edition of Your World, Christian Dorsey of the Economic Policy Institute explained to guest host Bolling how unemployment benefits provide economic stimulus and create jobs. Bolling replied, "Had you told me that some of the tax credits, or the payroll tax holidays were a good thing, I probably would have agreed with you, but when you tell me that another entitlement program -- allowing someone to stay out of work for longer -- and you tell me that's a job creator, I'm just going to have to disagree with you." Beck: Unemployed workers who don't take low-paying jobs have "sold their soul" to the government." On the August 12 edition of his radio show, Beck said that "you now have people who are on unemployment, but they wont' take another job," purportedly because they pay less than unemployment benefits. Beck said that those people "have sold their soul to the government, they have sold their pride." Beck on "some" protesting expiration of unemployment benefits: "I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans." On the August 16 edition of his Fox News show, Beck discussed a protest of "99ers," people whose unemployment insurance benefits have run out after 99 weeks. Beck said: The 99ers. These people, some of which I -- frankly, I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans. They think that 99 weeks on unemployment benefits just aren't enough. Last week, they went out to Wall Street and they protested. Ninety-niner Connie Kaplan asked, "Are you going to tell us, Mr. President and Congress, that our lives are not worth saving?" Connie, here's an idea. I'll save your life. Don't spend your remaining money on travel to get to a protest. Go out and get a job. You may not want the job. Work at McDonald's. Work two jobs. Environmental Protection Agency The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was established in 1970 under President Richard Nixon and works to "protect human health and to safeguard the natural environment -- air, water and land -- upon which life depends." Its work has long been opposed by conservatives. Gingrich: EPA "needs to be replaced." In his 2010 book, To Save America: Stopping Obama's Secular-Socialist Machine, Fox contributor Newt Gingrich writes: "The EPA has become an engine of undemocratic bureaucracy filled with people who seek to impose their fanatical views on an unwilling American population. The EPA and its entire regulation-litigation, Washington-centered, command-and-control bureaucracy needs to be replaced." (Page 151) Gingrich does not explain in the book what he proposes to replace the EPA with. Asked that question during a May 17 interview on Fox News Sunday, Gingrich did not answer directly, instead saying: Well, first of all, in the case of the Environmental Protection Agency, you have a -- you have a bureaucracy which is self- selected of people who believe they have the right to make the most amazing micro-management judgments around the whole country. And if you look at the degree to which they now issue rules, believe they can regulate the entire carbon economy -- and again, you want to talk about socialism. How about having a government agency of unelected people who decide they can literally rewrite the entire economy based on carbon? And I think it's very hard to reform an agency which has spent two generations recruiting people who are more and more anti-business, more and more anti-commercial activity, and who represent a value system that's very hard to deal with. Progressive taxation Liberals traditionally support progressive taxation, in which those with less income are taxed at a lower rate than those with higher incomes. Conservatives have opposed that system of taxation in favor of "flat taxes" in which everyone pays the same tax rate. Beck lashed out at "protected poor" taking tax money from the rich. On the January 12 edition of his Fox News show, Glenn Beck used pie as a prop to show how the "protected poor" in the "bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend" while the "evil rich people" in the top one percent of income earners pay much more: Here's the pie. This represents all of the money that we have in the federal government, all the taxes that are paid. Well, let's see who isn't paying their fair share. You decide. Is it the top 1 percent? This is the entire budget, all of our revenue, all of our revenue. How much do the top 1 percent pay? Only -- only about this much. That's it. Only -- it's gonna be -- if I can get underneath here, and it's going to be yummy. Only about this much. That's the top 1 percent. Oh, I hate those evil rich people! When will they pay their fair share? This again is 1 percent. OK? Now, how about the top 2 percent to the top 10 percent? OK? So, this would include the 1 percent here and the rest of them in the top 10 percent. That would be -- let's see -- that would be about here. We have from 2 percent to 10 percent, they're paying -- hmm, doesn't the pie look yummy now? I want some, seriously. OK, so that's -- this is the top 10 percent. So, I got to put 10 people in the pie. That's 10 people. Now, we've got now 71 percent of the pie. The top 50 percent of pie- eaters account for -- now, this is the rest of the top 50 percent -- and that's going to be these people. Got it? We got to put 50 people to pay for that piece of pie. One, nine, fifty. This represents the bottom 50 percent. They pay -- do I have any more? Yes. They pay the bottom 3 percent. OK? So, don't you hate this one guy? Oh, my gosh, he's just not paying enough. Got it? He's paying 40 percent. Now, the top -- the bottom 3 percent I have to -- I have to let you know, the bottom 50 percent, that 3 percent, they pay -- the bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend. The rest of it is put in a protected poor pie place. They got their own pie, never even touched. In fact, from time to time -- it's so great -- from time to time, we just whip people up in such a frenzy where we're like, "I hate those people. Give them some pie!" Every year, we just give them some of the more -- yeah, we just give it to them, because we hate the top 1 percent. We just take more of their pie and we put it in the protected zone now. Nobody, nobody could get in the protected zone. No! Don't take the poor pie. It's these people that we hate. These people are good. Got it? Hannity repeatedly makes false complaint that "half of Americans ... don't pay taxes." Sean Hannity has complained over and over that "50 percent of American households no longer pay taxes," using the purported fact to ask, "What does that mean for America if you have a voting electorate that's not paying any taxes?" In fact, while 47 percent of U.S. households will reportedly pay no federal income tax in fiscal 2010, as the Associated Press noted, "[t]he vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property." Contact: Fox News Channel FOX News Channel 1-888-369-4762 1211 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 http://twitter.com/foxnews You can help support our work: donate to Media Matters for America. This mail was sent by Media Matters for America to 'steelem at pacificu.edu'. To change your email subscription preferences, visit http://mediamatters.org/users/account_preferences [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tracker.gif?rid=53030894] From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 12:11:44 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:11:44 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> What you don't know can't hurt you. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:58:38 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] Walt wrote: "I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again...: Dear Walt: In Outlook e-mail, go to the Delete Section of the Home tab, click on the junk icon, click "block sender," then affirm on the pop-up screen. Voila! Join the happy group... --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:43 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his privacy irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be President? > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or documentation Obama provides, his detractors will always call them false, fabricated, forged, etc. > > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given by his superiors, he can be held to that oath. > > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds > > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would > embarrass the president. > I doubt it. > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without > discovery without embarrassing the president? Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn-out and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. > > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the right wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing evidence against the President's citizenship. > > What is the difference? Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal Sicilian crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and made crime into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely elected President of the United States, who has been struggling to undo the corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and has been hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self-declared "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences there? > > That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. Yep... But the President and other high public officials not protected by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. > > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are > the judges in Obama's pocket? Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... WW > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, > propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently > promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the > display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an > "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be > smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that > fashion. > > On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >> about me like a dog" >> >> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >> >> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >> >> don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Debra Bratland >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >> taking the majority." >> >> Hi Walt - >> >> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >> I get >> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup >> either. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy around," >>> not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American >>> jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect >>> them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is >>> their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that >>> most readily comes to mind. >>> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 12:13:33 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:13:33 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB93A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB93A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <274895332-1283886814-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1761282015-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> The 19th had issues too. The mid west land grants caused the dust bowl. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:05:53 To: Forest Grove local interests list(grovenet at rdrop.com) Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century Here's the problem-dump the 20th century: See below... --Mike From: Media Matters for America [mailto:info at mediamatters.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:04 PM To: Steele, Mike Subject: Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century To UNSUBSCRIBE from Media Matters for America emails, click here: http://mediamatters.org/users/unsubscribe?u=d5b35368a81d7606c3b30a9b9d30e70a&rid=53030894. [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/email/2007-item/masthead.gif] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century http://mediamatters.org/research/201009070031 Since President Obama's election, Fox personalities have expressed opposition to or called for the repeal of virtually every progressive achievement of the 20th century, including Social Security, Medicare, the Americans with Disabilities Act, portions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the 16th and 17th Amendments to the Constitution. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid 17th Amendment 16th Amendment Americans with Disabilities Act Civil Rights Act of 1964 Voting Rights Act of 1965 Nuclear arms control Abortion rights Labor unions Department of Education Unemployment insurance Environmental Protection Agency Progressive taxation Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid Social Security is a federal social insurance program funded through payroll taxes that provides benefits to the elderly and disabled and their survivors. It was signed into law by President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935. Medicare and Medicaid were established by the Social Security Act of 1965, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson. They provide health insurance to the elderly and the poor. All three programs have been defended by progressives and opposed by conservatives for decades. Beck: Social Security and Medicare "represent socialism and should have never been created." On the January 27 edition of his Fox News program, Glenn Beck said: Do you think programs like Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created in the first place? Oh, gosh, Democrats, this is a scary question. Another trap. You know what? It's only scary if you don't know who you are or what you believe in. I'm an American. I read. I believe in the Constitution. And, of course, Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created. Since FDR and his progressive buddies started Social Security, not our Founding Fathers, that should be fairly obvious to people. Beck's "Plan": Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are "going away." On the April 12 edition of his Fox News program, promoting the next day's show about his "Plan" for entitlement spending, Beck said: "Tomorrow, we're going to roll up our sleeves and begin. We're going to cut health care. Right now, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are 40 percent of our budget. They're going away. It's going to be ugly, a lot of crying, but America needs a cure." Tucker Carlson: "Unfortunately" Republicans won't "state unequivocally" they "want to do away with" Medicare and "most" Social Security. On the April 19 edition of Fox News' Hannity (accessed from the Nexis database), Fox News contributor Bob Beckel asked Fox News contributor Tucker Carlson, "Why don't you just state unequivocally that you want to do away with Medicare, which is what the Republicans want to do, and do away with most Social Security?" Carlson replied, "Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, most Republicans in positions of elected authority are unwilling to -- are unwilling to look right in the camera and say, 'We're going to have to pull back on entitlements.' " Bolling is glad the young will have to work rather than rely on the "Ponzi scheme" of Social Security. On the July 24 edition of Fox News' Bulls & Bears, Fox Business host Eric Bolling said that "it's good" that a poll indicates that many young adults don't expect to receive Social Security -- which he called a "Ponzi scheme" -- because "they realize that they're not going to be able to suck at the teat of the nanny state too much longer, get off their butt, work, put some money away, and not have to rely on a system that's going to fold probably by the time they collect a check." On the August 14, 2009, edition of Fox News' The Live Desk, Bolling said "they should rename it the Madoff Social Security system." Hannity relentlessly pushes false claim that Social Security and Medicare are "bankrupt." Since January 1, Sean Hannity has falsely claimed that Social Security is "bankrupt" or will shortly become bankrupt at least ten times, and falsely claimed Medicare is "bankrupt" or on the verge of bankruptcy at least 11 times. In fact, according to the 2010 report from the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds, Social Security is estimated to pay out full benefits "by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about 75 percent of scheduled benefits through 2084." The report likewise says of Medicare, "The projected date of HI [Hospital Insurance] Trust Fund exhaustion is 2029 ... at which time dedicated revenues would be sufficient to pay 85 percent of HI costs. The share o f HI expenditures that can be financed with HI dedicated revenues is projected to decline slowly to 76 percent in 2045 and then to rise slowly, reaching 89 percent in 2084." 17th Amendment The 17th Amendment provides for the direct election of U.S. Senators, rather than their selection by state legislators. It was passed by Congress with the support of progressives and submitted to the states in 1912 under President William Howard Taft. It was ratified under President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Recently, tea party activists and Republican members of Congress have called for its repeal. Napolitano: "I would repeal the 17th Amendment." In an interview with Reason magazine published April 8, Fox Business host Andrew Napolitano was asked what he considered "the single most important reform." He replied, "I would repeal the 17th Amendment," which he called "unconstitutional" because it "abolished bicameralism." He added that the amendment "was an assault, an invasion on the infrastructure of constitutional government." Huckabee: 17th Amendment "one of the dumbest things we ever did." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Fox News host Mike Huckabee said that Republicans should consider calling for the repeal of the 16th Amendment, then said that we should "talk about -- this is one of those things that senators would never agree, but one of the dumbest things we ever did in this country was the 17th Amendment." He added: The original Constitution and the way we operated for the first 120 years of our existence, senators were appointed by state legislators to represent the broader interests of the states to make sure the federal government didn't take too much power into itself. And most people don't even remember that. But we have had an increasing problem of too much centralization of federal power at the expense of local and state governments -- the antithesis of our Constitution -- because we've put all this power in the popular election of senators and representatives. Beck: Wilson "supported" amendment, "when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing!" On the June 11 edition of his Fox News show, Beck said of the 17th Amendment, "Like all bad things it started in 1913, Woodrow Wilson yet again. He supported this. Immediately now, when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing! You can be quite certain that something is not going to have a good outcome if Woodrow Wilson was involved." He also commented that "Thomas Jefferson warned about" direct representation, and said that that absent the 17th Amendment, "Obama's health care bill would have never seen the light of day. A lot of things that they do in Washington would never have seen the light of day. Why? Because it wouldn't in the interest of your state." Beck later added that "it's taken them over 200 years to remove all those roadblocks, but they're almost done. Maybe it's time to put a few of them back." 16th Amendment The 16th Amendment allows Congress to collect income taxes. It was passed by Congress and submitted to the states in 1909 and ratified in 1913, both under President Taft. Republican congressmen have called for the a mendment's repeal. Huckabee: "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Huckabee said, "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment, which authorizes the IRS." Napolitano has repeatedly called for "floating" a constitutional amendment that "abolishes the 16th Amendment." On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck (accessed from Nexis), Napolitano said, "How about floating a constitutional amendment amongst the states? Let's rescind the 16th Amendment. That's the income tax. If 25, 30 states start thinking about it and talking about it seriously, the Congress will take note because they will be scared to death it will starve them out of existence. And they won't be able to regulate progressively or retrogressively how we live." Likewise, on the May 6, 2009, edition of The Glenn Beck Program, asked by Beck about "this solution that you and I have talked about on a constitutional amendment, or a threat of a constitutional amendment," Napolitano said: If two-thirds of the states ask the Congress to call a constitutional convention to consider the adoption of this amendment, which I'll describe in a moment, as it gets closer and closer to the two-thirds necessary and Congress would be required to call the convention, you'll see some reaction on the part of congress to attempt to placate the states that want to call this. Now, the constitutional amendment is a simple one. It simply abolishes the 16th Amendment and states affirmatively that Congress shall have no power to tax the personal incomes of individual persons. If that were enacted, it would starve the federal government back into the original footprint that the founders intended for it. But as it gets closer to enactment, Congress will have to do something for fear that it might be enacted. Americans with Disabilities Act The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), originally sponsored by Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) and then-Representative Tony Coehlo (D-CA) and signed by President George H.W. Bush, "prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in employment, transportation, public accommodation, communications, and governmental activities." Recently, it has been attacked by conservative pundits and candidates. Stossel: "well-intentioned" ADA "unleashed a landslide of lawsuits," "requires that people be treated unequally." In his September 1 column, Stossel attacked the ADA, saying that it "requires that people be treated unequally" by requiring employers to accommodate disabled employees. He added: The law has also unleashed a landslide of lawsuits by "professional litigants" who file a hundred suits at a time. Disabled people visit businesses to look for violations, but instead of simply asking that a violation be corrected, they partner with lawyers who (legally) extort settlement money from the businesses. Stossel: ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." On the September 2 edition of Fox & Friends, Stossel said that the ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." Stossel said that "all these laws mean well," but that "these laws always have unintended consequences, and often they are worse than the good that the law was supposed to do." Civil Rights Act of 1964 The Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- signed by President Lyndon Johnson and opposed by then-Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater -- "prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal." Stossel calls for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights Act. On the May 20 edition of Fox News' America Live, Stossel said that "it's time now to repeal" the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act, which outlaws discrimination by private businesses, "because private business ought to get to discriminate." Stossel repeatedly defended his advocacy for a right to discriminate. Stossel reiterated his call to eliminate the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act in two FoxBusiness.com blog posts, on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, and in his syndicated column. Voting Rights Act of 1965 The Voting Rights Act of 1965, signed by President Johnson after he "issued a call for a strong voting rights law," outlawed a number of discriminatory voting practices, including requiring literacy tests as a prerequisite for voting. Briggs: Enforcement of Voting Rights Act "not a proper use of funds." During the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, guest host Dave Briggs claimed that the Department of Justice "is demanding" that election officials in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, "print ballots in Spanish," and said, "The cost, again, $500,000 estimated, for what some say is 6,000 voters, which does sound like not a proper use of funds." He then asked a guest, "But, beyond that, I mean, do you think this is something that is absolutely required, is necessary, in our country?" According to media reports, at issue is a provision of federal law originally enacted in the Voting Rights Act explicitly protecting the right to vote of Puerto Rican voters educated in U.S. schools regardless of their ability to understand English. Nuclear arms control For decades, presidents of both parties negotiated and signed treaties with the Soviet Union (later Russia) to reduce the nuclear arsenals of both nations. President Ronald Reagan, who signed the START I treaty, repeatedly stated that his "ultimate goal" was the "total elimination of nuclear weapons." More recently, conservatives have panned President Obama's new START treaty, which would further reduce nuclear arsenals, and even questioned the importance of nuclear reductions in the first place. Hannity: "We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons," "we can never return to a world" without them. In Sean Hannity's 2010 book, Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: [W]e must be committed to retaining our position as the world's greatest superpower, by maintaining the world's strongest military and supporting our troops on and off the battlefield. We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons and must persist in perfecting our strategic missile defenses. [Page 222] He also writes: Conservatives, on the other hand, recognize that we live in a dangerous world, and that the world will always be dangerous because human beings are fallen. The nuclear genie is out of the bottle; the world has changed; much as we would like, we can never return to a world without nuclear weapons. [Page 209] Abortion rights In the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court held that the constitutional right to privacy extends to a woman's decision to have an abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy, and in the second and third trimesters under certain circumstances. Since then, progressives have traditionally argued in favor of the decision and the right it preserved, while conservatives have opposed it. Napolitano compared Roe v. Wade to Dred Scott case. On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck, Napolitano said: Dred Scott is a slave who was taken to a free state, Illinois, and while there, sues for his freedom. The case goes up and down, up and down. It finally goes to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court could have said slavery is lawful. The Supreme Court could have said all human beings are free and he's free. Instead it said, blacks are not persons and therefore don't have the right to bring lawsuits. This horrific determination by a court that a class of human beings are denied personhood -- fast forward a hundred years -- is the same logic the Supreme Court used in Roe versus Wade -- babies in the wombs are not persons. Hannity calls for "protecting the lives of the innocent unborn" by "striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges." In Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: I certainly can't, in good conscience, make a raw political calculation about protecting the lives of the innocent unborn as casually as if we were talking about a no-smoking ban in a restaurant. We must continue to press for restrictions on abortion (such as parental notification) while striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges and continuing our nonpolitical efforts to persuade Americans of the horrors and immorality of abortion. [Page 152] Ingraham: "49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible." On the June 4, 2009, edition of The O'Reilly Factor, contributor Laura Ingraham said (accessed from Nexis): [W]hen you talk about the issue of abortion, and someone killing an abortion doctor, that allows you to create sympathy for the entire abortion movement. And 60,000 dead as you pointed out by the hands of George Tiller. Five abortion doctors have been killed since Roe versus Wade. Five. Now it's horrible, but 49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible. O'Reilly repeatedly called Dr. Tiller "the baby killer." On numerous instances in 2009, Bill O'Reilly referred to Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller as "Tiller the baby killer." After Tiller's murder, O'Reilly repeatedly falsely claimed that he had only "reported" anti-abortion groups referring to Tiller in that fashion. Labor unions In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt signed the National Labor Relations Act "to protect the rights of employees and employers, to encourage collective bargaining, and to curtail certain private sector labor and management practices." Labor unions have long been part of the progressive coalition, while conservatives have worked to limit their right to bargain collectively. Regular Fox segment: "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Fox News and Fox Business regularly run segments titled, "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Varney: Unions are "the antithesis of freedom," "fortunately" private sector unions "have retreated," but public sector unions are still a "problem." On the September 4 edition of Fox Business' Freedom Watch, asked by Napolitano for his "observations from your native country in England" about whether "unions help or hurt the average worker," Varney replied: "Unions were a disaster for the British economy. They are the antithesis of freedom. They impose rigid workplace rules that have no place in a modern economy." Later, Varney commented: "Fortunately, unions have retreated in the private sector. It is in the public sector where they rule, and that is the nature of some of our problems." He added that "taxpayers" and "the concept of freedom and liberty" "suffer" from the existence of unions. Kristol: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." On the October 18, 2009, edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, contributor Bill Kristol declared: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." Beck says unions have "raped" police and fire fighters. On the August 4 edition of his radio program, Glenn Beck said of unions: "Look what they've done to the police and firemen. They've raped these guys. Along with politicians. Along with politicians -- raped them. The bravest among us." Beck went on to ask, "What, do you think the politicians are not in bed with the unions?" Beck blames unions for woes of local governments and industries. On the February 25 edition of The Glenn Beck Program, Beck blamed unions for the financial woes of local governments, the auto industry, airlines, schools, the steel industry, and the textile industry. He continued: "Mr. President, until you get the unions out of this business, I don't think we have anything to talk about." Beck regularly attacks union members as "thugs." On numerous occasions on both his Fox News and radio programs, Beck has referred to union members as "thugs" or "enforcers." Carlson blames cost of living in NYC on "union pensions" and "raising taxes" for "schools." On the August 5 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson asserted that the cost of living in New York City, California, and Honolulu is "so expensive" "because of union pensions; because of raising costs for other things; for raising taxes along the way for schools." Carlson concluded: "If you go back in history and look at who incorporated a lot of that, maybe the blame comes right back to the same party. Or maybe it doesn't." Cavuto tells union spokesman: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there." During the January 11 edition of Your World, Stewart Acuff of the Utility Workers Union of America appeared to discuss union leader opposition to a tax on health care plans backed by President Obama. Host Neil Cavuto told Acuff: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there, 'cause you're such a decent guy, but you're saying 'Mr. President, may I remind you that you are sitting in this room because of us.' Which is a very nice way of saying, 'Tread slowly, big guy.' " Cavuto likened unions to Hurricane Earl on a "collision course on our towns." During the September 2 edition of Your World, Cavuto compared unions to Hurricane Earl, saying, "The monster and the mess. Your World on top of Earl's collision course with our coast and what could be unions' collision course with our towns." Cavuto added: "And get ready for Earl's wallop and, to hear some state and local governments tell it, unions' direct hit on their wallet." Department of Education The Department of Education was established by President Jimmy Carter in 1979 and serves to "to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access." Conservatives have long called for the Department's dissolution. Beck's "Plan": "[A]bolish the Department of Education." On the April 14 edition of his Fox News show, while detailing his "Plan" for the U.S. budget, Beck said: "We need to get control of our schools back to the parents, back to the states. The best way to do this is to abolish the Department of Education. We certainly don't need to be giving them more money. The federal government should only be responsible for the things that the states cannot do." Unemployment insurance The Federal Unemployment Tax Act, signed by President Roosevelt in 1939, together with the Social Security Act of 1935, established the modern U.S. system of unemployment insurance, in which employers pay payroll taxes to the federal and state governments which are used by the states to finance benefits to those who become unemployed through no fault of their own. Conservatives have often attacked the system of unemployment insurance as well as those who receive unemployment benefits. Varney seizes on claim that "unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9.5 percent," if Congress hadn't "extended unemployment benefits." On the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, Varney cited a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Harvard economics professor and Hoover Institute senior fellow Robert Barro to claim that, in Varney's words, "If we had not extended unemployment benefits to 99 weeks from the standard 26 weeks, [Barro] says, unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9.5 percent." According to Varney, Barro argued that "you extend benefits like this, and it discourages people from going out to look for work especially, you know, the start of the benefit period, because it's nearly two years." Barro's theory a nd similar claims -- that extending unemployment benefits in the current recession provide a disincentive for people to find work -- have been widely disputed by experts. Kilmeade: "Maybe" eliminating "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up" and get jobs. On the July 15 edition of Fox & Friends, referencing Senate Republicans who had blocked extending unemployment benefits, co-host Brian Kilmeade told Partnership Staffing Inc. CEO Bill Auchmoody that "maybe" the elimination of "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up and take some of your offers." Hannity falsely suggested Fed said unemployment benefit extension increased ranks of those without jobs. On the February 22 edition of his show, Hannity claimed that the economic recovery act "actually raised unemployment," citing minutes from a January Federal Reserve meeting to falsely suggest that the extension of unemployment benefits in the recovery act increased the number of people who don't have jobs. In fact, the Federal Reserve minutes Hannity cited actually stated that the provision had the effect of raising the measured unemployment rate because people who lost their jobs sought to remain in the workforce in order to receive benefits rather than leaving the workforce and being counted as "discouraged workers" instead of "unemployed." Bolling: Unemployment benefits are about "allowing someone to stay out of work for longer." On the February 11 edition of Your World, Christian Dorsey of the Economic Policy Institute explained to guest host Bolling how unemployment benefits provide economic stimulus and create jobs. Bolling replied, "Had you told me that some of the tax credits, or the payroll tax holidays were a good thing, I probably would have agreed with you, but when you tell me that another entitlement program -- allowing someone to stay out of work for longer -- and you tell me that's a job creator, I'm just going to have to disagree with you." Beck: Unemployed workers who don't take low-paying jobs have "sold their soul" to the government." On the August 12 edition of his radio show, Beck said that "you now have people who are on unemployment, but they wont' take another job," purportedly because they pay less than unemployment benefits. Beck said that those people "have sold their soul to the government, they have sold their pride." Beck on "some" protesting expiration of unemployment benefits: "I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans." On the August 16 edition of his Fox News show, Beck discussed a protest of "99ers," people whose unemployment insurance benefits have run out after 99 weeks. Beck said: The 99ers. These people, some of which I -- frankly, I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans. They think that 99 weeks on unemployment benefits just aren't enough. Last week, they went out to Wall Street and they protested. Ninety-niner Connie Kaplan asked, "Are you going to tell us, Mr. President and Congress, that our lives are not worth saving?" Connie, here's an idea. I'll save your life. Don't spend your remaining money on travel to get to a protest. Go out and get a job. You may not want the job. Work at McDonald's. Work two jobs. Environmental Protection Agency The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was established in 1970 under President Richard Nixon and works to "protect human health and to safeguard the natural environment -- air, water and land -- upon which life depends." Its work has long been opposed by conservatives. Gingrich: EPA "needs to be replaced." In his 2010 book, To Save America: Stopping Obama's Secular-Socialist Machine, Fox contributor Newt Gingrich writes: "The EPA has become an engine of undemocratic bureaucracy filled with people who seek to impose their fanatical views on an unwilling American population. The EPA and its entire regulation-litigation, Washington-centered, command-and-control bureaucracy needs to be replaced." (Page 151) Gingrich does not explain in the book what he proposes to replace the EPA with. Asked that question during a May 17 interview on Fox News Sunday, Gingrich did not answer directly, instead saying: Well, first of all, in the case of the Environmental Protection Agency, you have a -- you have a bureaucracy which is self- selected of people who believe they have the right to make the most amazing micro-management judgments around the whole country. And if you look at the degree to which they now issue rules, believe they can regulate the entire carbon economy -- and again, you want to talk about socialism. How about having a government agency of unelected people who decide they can literally rewrite the entire economy based on carbon? And I think it's very hard to reform an agency which has spent two generations recruiting people who are more and more anti-business, more and more anti-commercial activity, and who represent a value system that's very hard to deal with. Progressive taxation Liberals traditionally support progressive taxation, in which those with less income are taxed at a lower rate than those with higher incomes. Conservatives have opposed that system of taxation in favor of "flat taxes" in which everyone pays the same tax rate. Beck lashed out at "protected poor" taking tax money from the rich. On the January 12 edition of his Fox News show, Glenn Beck used pie as a prop to show how the "protected poor" in the "bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend" while the "evil rich people" in the top one percent of income earners pay much more: Here's the pie. This represents all of the money that we have in the federal government, all the taxes that are paid. Well, let's see who isn't paying their fair share. You decide. Is it the top 1 percent? This is the entire budget, all of our revenue, all of our revenue. How much do the top 1 percent pay? Only -- only about this much. That's it. Only -- it's gonna be -- if I can get underneath here, and it's going to be yummy. Only about this much. That's the top 1 percent. Oh, I hate those evil rich people! When will they pay their fair share? This again is 1 percent. OK? Now, how about the top 2 percent to the top 10 percent? OK? So, this would include the 1 percent here and the rest of them in the top 10 percent. That would be -- let's see -- that would be about here. We have from 2 percent to 10 percent, they're paying -- hmm, doesn't the pie look yummy now? I want some, seriously. OK, so that's -- this is the top 10 percent. So, I got to put 10 people in the pie. That's 10 people. Now, we've got now 71 percent of the pie. The top 50 percent of pie- eaters account for -- now, this is the rest of the top 50 percent -- and that's going to be these people. Got it? We got to put 50 people to pay for that piece of pie. One, nine, fifty. This represents the bottom 50 percent. They pay -- do I have any more? Yes. They pay the bottom 3 percent. OK? So, don't you hate this one guy? Oh, my gosh, he's just not paying enough. Got it? He's paying 40 percent. Now, the top -- the bottom 3 percent I have to -- I have to let you know, the bottom 50 percent, that 3 percent, they pay -- the bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend. The rest of it is put in a protected poor pie place. They got their own pie, never even touched. In fact, from time to time -- it's so great -- from time to time, we just whip people up in such a frenzy where we're like, "I hate those people. Give them some pie!" Every year, we just give them some of the more -- yeah, we just give it to them, because we hate the top 1 percent. We just take more of their pie and we put it in the protected zone now. Nobody, nobody could get in the protected zone. No! Don't take the poor pie. It's these people that we hate. These people are good. Got it? Hannity repeatedly makes false complaint that "half of Americans ... don't pay taxes." Sean Hannity has complained over and over that "50 percent of American households no longer pay taxes," using the purported fact to ask, "What does that mean for America if you have a voting electorate that's not paying any taxes?" In fact, while 47 percent of U.S. households will reportedly pay no federal income tax in fiscal 2010, as the Associated Press noted, "[t]he vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, a viation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property." Contact: Fox News Channel FOX News Channel 1-888-369-4762 1211 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 http://twitter.com/foxnews You can help support our work: donate to Media Matters for America. This mail was sent by Media Matters for America to 'steelem at pacificu.edu'. To change your email subscription preferences, visit http://mediamatters.org/users/account_preferences [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tracker.gif?rid=53030894] _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Sep 7 12:14:56 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:14:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB97F@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> After hundreds of ridiculous claims, I know plenty about what I don't want to see again. Knowing is a totally different matter...as a professional educator for 43 years, I know something about knowing. I also know it when it's not knowledge. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:12 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] What you don't know can't hurt you. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:58:38 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] Walt wrote: "I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again...: Dear Walt: In Outlook e-mail, go to the Delete Section of the Home tab, click on the junk icon, click "block sender," then affirm on the pop-up screen. Voila! Join the happy group... --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:43 AM To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his privacy irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be President? > > It is in his power to prove them wrong. That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or documentation Obama provides, his detractors will always call them false, fabricated, forged, etc. > > The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given by his superiors, he can be held to that oath. > > It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds > > The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would > embarrass the president. > I doubt it. > Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without > discovery without embarrassing the president? Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn-out and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. > > Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the right wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing evidence against the President's citizenship. > > What is the difference? Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal Sicilian crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and made crime into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely elected President of the United States, who has been struggling to undo the corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and has been hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self-declared "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences there? > > That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. Yep... But the President and other high public officials not protected by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. > > The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are > the judges in Obama's pocket? Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... WW > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, > propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently > promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the > display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an > "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be > smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that > fashion. > > On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >> about me like a dog" >> >> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >> >> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >> >> don >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Debra Bratland >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >> taking the majority." >> >> Hi Walt - >> >> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >> I get >> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my cup >> either. >> >> Deb Bratland >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy around," >>> not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American >>> jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect >>> them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is >>> their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that >>> most readily comes to mind. >>> WW >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 12:18:20 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:18:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Conversely, what you do "know"-- and refuse to consider any contradictory evidence on-- can hurt your credibility on anything else you say, and can bore and exasperate anybody you come in contact with WW On Sep 7, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Steve wrote: > What you don't know can't hurt you. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:58:38 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] > > Walt wrote: "I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and > baseless argument again and again...: > > Dear Walt: In Outlook e-mail, go to the Delete Section of the Home > tab, click on the junk icon, click "block sender," then affirm on > the pop-up screen. Voila! Join the happy group... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. > > Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his > privacy irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be > President? >> >> It is in his power to prove them wrong. > > That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or > documentation Obama provides, his detractors will always call them > false, fabricated, forged, etc. >> >> The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. > > Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given > by his superiors, he can be held to that oath. >> >> It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. > > And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds >> >> The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would >> embarrass the president. >> > I doubt it. > >> Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without >> discovery without embarrassing the president? > > Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn- > out and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. >> >> Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? > > He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent > investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the > right wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing > evidence against the President's citizenship. >> >> What is the difference? > > Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal > Sicilian crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and > made crime into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely > elected President of the United States, who has been struggling to > undo the corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and > has been hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self- > declared "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences > there? >> >> That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. > > Yep... But the President and other high public officials not > protected by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. >> >> The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are >> the judges in Obama's pocket? > > Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with > the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... > > But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of > going over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... > WW >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, >> propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently >> promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the >> display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an >> "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be >> smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that >> fashion. >> >> On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >>> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >>> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >>> about me like a dog" >>> >>> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >>> >>> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >>> >>> don >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Debra Bratland >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >>> >>> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >>> taking the majority." >>> >>> Hi Walt - >>> >>> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >>> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >>> I get >>> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my >>> cup >>> either. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy >>>> around," >>>> not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American >>>> jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect >>>> them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is >>>> their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that >>>> most readily comes to mind. >>>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet____________________________________ >> _ >> __________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Tue Sep 7 12:24:10 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:24:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB9C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Right Walt...after hundreds of ridiculous claims, I know plenty about what I don't want to see again. Knowing is a totally different matter...as a professional educator for 43 years, I know something about knowing. I also know it when it's not knowledge. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:18 PM To: nospam03 at comcast.net; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] Conversely, what you do "know"-- and refuse to consider any contradictory evidence on-- can hurt your credibility on anything else you say, and can bore and exasperate anybody you come in contact with WW On Sep 7, 2010, at 12:11 PM, Steve wrote: > What you don't know can't hurt you. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:58:38 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] > > Walt wrote: "I am bloody tired of going over this same silly and > baseless argument again and again...: > > Dear Walt: In Outlook e-mail, go to the Delete Section of the Home > tab, click on the junk icon, click "block sender," then affirm on the > pop-up screen. Voila! Join the happy group... > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- bounces at rdrop.com] > On Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: donkelly; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> I wouldn't worry about what he considers lies. > > Obviously not. His real history obviously isn't important, his privacy > irrelevant, his dignity of no consequence. Who wants to be President? >> >> It is in his power to prove them wrong. > > That statement itself is wrong. No matter what facts or documentation > Obama provides, his detractors will always call them false, > fabricated, forged, etc. >> >> The recent court decision on Lakin vs Obama was dismissed. > > Yep. Turns out when a military officer swears to obey orders given by > his superiors, he can be held to that oath. >> >> It will be appealed on constitutional grounds. > > And will be dismissed on Constitutional grounds >> >> The judge said the Obama papers, if presented in court, would >> embarrass the president. >> > I doubt it. > >> Gee whiz. The guy can't defend himself against the charges without >> discovery without embarrassing the president? > > Say rather, wasting public resources in a futile and already worn- out > and frivolous debate about a proven fraud by right wing racists. >> >> Was Al Capone emarrased when he had to produce his records? > > He didn't produce them. They were dug out by patient and persistent > investigative work... almost as patient and persistent and the right > wing's patient and persistent effort to dig out convincing evidence > against the President's citizenship. >> >> What is the difference? > > Well, lemme see... on one side, a smirking, arrogant, brutal Sicilian > crime lord, who ruthlessly gunned down his opponents and made crime > into a corporate enterprise... on the other, the freely elected > President of the United States, who has been struggling to undo the > corporate-criminal actions of past administrations, and has been > hamstrung, harassed and slandered endlessly by self- declared > "patriots..." Hmmm, I diunno, can you see any differences there? >> >> That inability to defend one's self is unconstitutional. > > Yep... But the President and other high public officials not protected > by the laws against libel, slander and defamation. >> >> The judge didn't care about the constitutionality of discovery. Are >> the judges in Obama's pocket? > > Well, considering the present state of American law, beginning with > the makeup of the Supreme Court, one may seriously doubt it... > > But, in conclusion, i have said repeatedly, I am bloody tired of going > over this same silly and baseless argument again and again... > WW >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Walt Wentz >> Date: 09/06/10 23:08:59 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >> >> He's probably finally becoming indignant about all the calumny, >> propaganda and outright lies about him being so persistently >> promulgated by Faux News, its clones and cronies. Actually, the >> display of a little human anger might make him seem a bit more of an >> "average Joe" to the general public. "Joe Sixpack" would already be >> smashing noses and breaking jaws if people talked about him in that >> fashion. >> >> On Sep 6, 2010, at 9:03 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> The president usually sticks to his written text they say, but in >>> Wisconsin today he became less presidential by saying, (summary) >>> "Powerful interests for a very long time in washington are talking >>> about me like a dog" >>> >>> Is this guy finally becomming more sensitive to public opinion? >>> >>> Opinion: Nut cases on both side? Yes, more than enough to go around. >>> >>> don >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Debra Bratland >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Sent: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 03:36:58 -0000 (UTC) >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios >>> >>> Seems the entire focus of the Repubs in the coming election is "re- >>> taking the majority." >>> >>> Hi Walt - >>> >>> The Republicans are only concerned with retaking the majority, but >>> unfortunately the Democrats only care about keeping the majority. >>> I get >>> really disgusted with both parties, though the Tea Party isn't my >>> cup either. >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Not "rescuing the working class," not "turning the economy >>>> around," >>>> not "stopping the drain of useless wars," not "bringing American >>>> jobs home," nor any other goals of serving the people who elect >>>> them. It is simply "re-taking the majority." So long as that is >>>> their sole, obsessive focus, I think "garbage" is the thought that >>>> most readily comes to mind. >>>> WW >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ >> grovenet____________________________________ >> _ >> __________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Sep 7 12:30:22 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:30:22 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <006401cb4ec3$1e75b190$5b6114b0$@com> Don, > From: donkelly [mailto:ocollaugh at comcast.net] > > Do you mean like securing the borders in Arizona, New Mexico, > and Texas? As evidenced by border crossing estimates, the borders are more secure now than they've ever been. > Do you mean like reducing the level of medical care for > seniors while also increasing their costs, and increasing > the taxes of everyone to support reduced services? Well, the government doesn't control the price of care that's provided by private enterprise. So, in an effort to make sure they pay for care something has to give. > Do you mean like increasing the cost of utilities by $2,000 > per year, while not removing one ton of pollutants from the > atmosphere? The President doesn't control the cost of utilities as, in most cases, they are provided by, you guessed it, private enterprise. Last I checked, you were against anything to do with addressing the issue of pollutants, including, but not limited to, cap and trade, regulation, Al Gore, etc. > Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide > who lives and who dies, to reduce the costs of health > care? Never happened. Won't ever happen as a function of any current legislation. > Do you mean by putting 35 cronies on the government payroll, > as Czars making six figure salaries, during a bad economy, > without approval, or funding, from congress? These are approved positions with approved salaries and budgets. They aren't cronies. I've thoroughly addressed this ridiculous claim several times in the past. You, sir, are pants on fire with this one. > Do you mean by turning state problems over to the UN for > resolution? Citing issues with the law in AZ as part of a report on human rights that's submitted every four years by member nations is *not* "turning state problems over to the UN for resolution". > Do you mean by forming his own private army, as well staffed > and equipt as the regular army, to do his bidding? This "private army" you speak of isn't his own private army or of his making. It has never been there to "do his bidding". Ease up on the koolaid. http://www.truthistreason.net/obamas-ready-reserve-corp-within-the-healthcar e-bill-explained > Do you mean by blowing eleven trillion dollars without > commensurate affect, except driving every American > deeper into the abyss of debt. It isn't 11 trillion dollars, numerous economic experts agree there has been a considerable positive impact, and yes sadly we're headed deeper into debt. Considering the alternative (the economy imploding and unemployment figures being *much* higher than they are now), I'll take the current course of action and its consequences. > Do you men by dismissing the charge of the birthers by > stating on national TV that, "A president doesn't need > a birth certificate"? Who are you claiming said that? Actually, it doesn't much matter because it's ridiculous to think anyone would make that sort of childish statement when the President's eligibility was no doubt thoroughly checked by multiple agencies when he put his name in the race and then again when it was clear he was going to get elected. > Do you mean by dissing our friends in Israel? What friends? Are you talking about the ones that refuse to work out some sort of peaceful arrangement with the Palestinians and continue to imprison them in the narrow strip of land (if you can call it that) through the use of sanctions, blockades, and closed borders by neighboring countries? Or, are you talking about those that would welcome an attack on Iran? > Do you mean by supporting a mosque being built at ground zero? Two and a half blocks away is not *at* ground zero. Does the 1st Amendment right not extend to Muslims? > Do you mean, "when push comes to shove, I'll support > the Muslims"? More silliness. > Do you mean, by blaming all government problems on Bush? All is a tricky word. To be fair, *most* of the government problems can be traced back to Bush and his administration. > If not, what do you mean Jeff? Whatever do I mean about what, Don? Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 12:45:20 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:45:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:40:48 -0700 Message-ID: <4341-4C869650-2952@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> thanks Ed... I sahll fix it From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 12:48:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:48:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party In-Reply-To: "Ed Davie" 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:40:48 -0700 Message-ID: <4342-4C869711-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mr Ed,. This one ok? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/392fcbc7/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 12:55:03 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 12:55:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Tea Party In-Reply-To: <4342-4C869711-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4342-4C869711-2133@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <162D683CEECB4C08A77CC2E9C092E5E1@EdDaviePC> Fine! Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:48 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Tea Party Mr Ed,. This one ok? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! roses > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 13:03:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:03:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century In-Reply-To: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <4346-4C869A95-361@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Mike... what makes you think this would make any difference, or considering we live long enough for the 22nd? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/a0621e51/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 13:37:41 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:37:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB9C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C86A272.000049.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Why does Obama say people talk about him as a dog? Dogs are good. At least his dog Bo has papers. Memo to Obama: This is Why they talk about you like a ?dog? By Ben Johnson, Floyd Reports Seeing his popularity diminishing before his eyes, Barack Obama sought comfort in the steely arms of Big Labor yesterday. The most criticism-averse president in history whined that it was ?special interests? who opposed his agenda ? and these people were not very nice. Looking deliberately into the camera, he tried out a down-home phrase to show solidarity with the union rabble. ?They talk about me like a dog,? said the Cornpone Kenyan. ?That?s not in my prepared remarks,? he lied, ?but it?s true.? By recent standards, he?s lived a charmed life. His left-wing friends in the anti-(American) war movement are not in the streets comparing him to Hitler or calling for his assassination. Glenn Beck?s crowds gather to pray. But there may be a reason he receives less than universal adulation, even occasionally scathing remarks about his job as president: he deserves them, and a Hell of a lot more. This president has elevated members of the radical Left to the heights of power. He selected ?Green Jobs? czar Van Jones, the 9/11 Truther and Marxist who also believed Hurricane Katrina might be an inside job. His current Science Czar, John Holdren, has written in support of compulsory abortion for American woman and absorbing our national soveriegnty into ?A Comprehensive Planetary Regime.? The man entrusted with enforcing justice, Eric Holder, once sought Bill Clinton?s pardon of Marc Rich, believes America is ?a nation of cowards,? and is busy dragging tough sheriffs to court while letting Black Panthers get off scot free. -================ Question: Who is the racist here? GASP, who is plying the time worn dog eared racist card here? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/7ee2269e/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 13:49:46 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:49:46 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB93A@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C86A566.00004F.03336@DON-B2514E06367> WOW, a very big DUMP. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 9/7/2010 12:06:16 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list (grovenet at rdrop.com) Subject: [Grovenet] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century Here's the problem-dump the 20th century: See below... --Mike From: Media Matters for America [mailto:info at mediamatters.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 12:04 PM To: Steele, Mike Subject: Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century To UNSUBSCRIBE from Media Matters for America emails, click here: http://mediamatters org/users/unsubscribe?u=d5b35368a81d7606c3b30a9b9d30e70a&rid=53030894. [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/email/2007-item/masthead gif] Fox calls for repeal of the 20th century http://mediamatters.org/research/201009070031 Since President Obama's election, Fox personalities have expressed opposition to or called for the repeal of virtually every progressive achievement of the 20th century, including Social Security, Medicare, the Americans with Disabilities Act, portions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the 16th and 17th Amendments to the Constitution. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid 17th Amendment 16th Amendment Americans with Disabilities Act Civil Rights Act of 1964 Voting Rights Act of 1965 Nuclear arms control Abortion rights Labor unions Department of Education Unemployment insurance Environmental Protection Agency Progressive taxation Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid Social Security is a federal social insurance program funded through payroll taxes that provides benefits to the elderly and disabled and their survivors. It was signed into law by President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935. Medicare and Medicaid were established by the Social Security Act of 1965, signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson. They provide health insurance to the elderly and the poor. All three programs have been defended by progressives and opposed by conservatives for decades. Beck: Social Security and Medicare "represent socialism and should have never been created." On the January 27 edition of his Fox News program, Glenn Beck said: Do you think programs like Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created in the first place? Oh, gosh, Democrats, this is a scary question. Another trap. You know what? It's only scary if you don't know who you are or what you believe in. I'm an American. I read. I believe in the Constitution. And, of course, Social Security and Medicare represent socialism and should have never been created. Since FDR and his progressive buddies started Social Security, not our Founding Fathers, that should be fairly obvious to people. Beck's "Plan": Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are "going away." On the April 12 edition of his Fox News program, promoting the next day's show about his "Plan" for entitlement spending, Beck said: "Tomorrow, we're going to roll up our sleeves and begin. We're going to cut health care. Right now, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are 40 percent of our budget. They're going away. It's going to be ugly, a lot of crying, but America needs a cure " Tucker Carlson: "Unfortunately" Republicans won't "state unequivocally" they "want to do away with" Medicare and "most" Social Security. On the April 19 edition of Fox News' Hannity (accessed from the Nexis database), Fox News contributor Bob Beckel asked Fox News contributor Tucker Carlson, "Why don't you just state unequivocally that you want to do away with Medicare, which is what the Republicans want to do, and do away with most Social Security?" Carlson replied, "Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, they don't. Unfortunately, most Republicans in positions of elected authority are unwilling to -- are unwilling to look right in the camera and say, 'We're going to have to pull back on entitlements.' " Bolling is glad the young will have to work rather than rely on the "Ponzi scheme" of Social Security. On the July 24 edition of Fox News' Bulls & Bears, Fox Business host Eric Bolling said that "it's good" that a poll indicates that many young adults don't expect to receive Social Security -- which he called a "Ponzi scheme" -- because "they realize that they're not going to be able to suck at the teat of the nanny state too much longer, get off their butt, work, put some money away, and not have to rely on a system that's going to fold probably by the time they collect a check." On the August 14, 2009, edition of Fox News' The Live Desk, Bolling said they should rename it the Madoff Social Security system." Hannity relentlessly pushes false claim that Social Security and Medicare are "bankrupt." Since January 1, Sean Hannity has falsely claimed that Social Security is "bankrupt" or will shortly become bankrupt at least ten times, and falsely claimed Medicare is "bankrupt" or on the verge of bankruptcy at least 11 times. In fact, according to the 2010 report from the trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds, Social Security is estimated to pay out full benefits "by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about 75 percent of scheduled benefits through 2084." The report likewise says of Medicare, "The projected date of HI [Hospital Insurance] Trust Fund exhaustion is 2029 ... at which time dedicated revenues would be sufficient to pay 85 percent of HI costs. The share o f HI expenditures that can be financed with HI dedicated revenues is projected to decline slowly to 76 percent in 2045 and then to rise slowly, reaching 89 percent in 2084." 17th Amendment The 17th Amendment provides for the direct election of U.S. Senators, rather than their selection by state legislators. It was passed by Congress with the support of progressives and submitted to the states in 1912 under President William Howard Taft. It was ratified under President Woodrow Wilson in 1913. Recently, tea party activists and Republican members of Congress have called for its repeal. Napolitano: "I would repeal the 17th Amendment." In an interview with Reason magazine published April 8, Fox Business host Andrew Napolitano was asked what he considered "the single most important reform." He replied, "I would repeal the 17th Amendment," which he called unconstitutional" because it "abolished bicameralism." He added that the amendment "was an assault, an invasion on the infrastructure of constitutional government." Huckabee: 17th Amendment "one of the dumbest things we ever did." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Fox News host Mike Huckabee said that Republicans should consider calling for the repeal of the 16th Amendment, then said that we should "talk about -- this is one of those things that senators would never agree, but one of the dumbest things we ever did in this country was the 17th Amendment." He added: The original Constitution and the way we operated for the first 120 years of our existence, senators were appointed by state legislators to represent the broader interests of the states to make sure the federal government didn't take too much power into itself. And most people don't even remember that. But we have had an increasing problem of too much centralization of federal power at the expense of local and state governments -- the antithesis of our Constitution -- because we've put all this power in the popular election of senators and representatives. Beck: Wilson "supported" amendment, "when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing!" On the June 11 edition of his Fox News show, Beck said of the 17th Amendment, "Like all bad things it started in 1913, Woodrow Wilson yet again. He supported this. Immediately now, when I see Woodrow Wilson, I immediately know -- bad thing! You can be quite certain that something is not going to have a good outcome if Woodrow Wilson was involved." He also commented that "Thomas Jefferson warned about" direct representation, and said that that absent the 17th Amendment, "Obama's health care bill would have never seen the light of day. A lot of things that they do in Washington would never have seen the light of day. Why? Because it wouldn't in the interest of your state." Beck later added that it's taken them over 200 years to remove all those roadblocks, but they're almost done. Maybe it's time to put a few of them back." 16th Amendment The 16th Amendment allows Congress to collect income taxes. It was passed by Congress and submitted to the states in 1909 and ratified in 1913, both under President Taft. Republican congressmen have called for the a mendment's repeal. Huckabee: "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment." On the October 16, 2009, edition of Fox News Radio's Brian & The Judge, Huckabee said, "I think we ought to talk about repealing the 16th Amendment, which authorizes the IRS." Napolitano has repeatedly called for "floating" a constitutional amendment that "abolishes the 16th Amendment." On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck (accessed from Nexis), Napolitano said, "How about floating a constitutional amendment amongst the states? Let's rescind the 16th Amendment. That's the income tax. If 25, 30 states start thinking about it and talking about it seriously, the Congress will take note because they will be scared to death it will starve them out of existence. And they won't be able to regulate progressively or retrogressively how we live." Likewise, on the May 6, 2009, edition of The Glenn Beck Program, asked by Beck about this solution that you and I have talked about on a constitutional amendment or a threat of a constitutional amendment," Napolitano said: If two-thirds of the states ask the Congress to call a constitutional convention to consider the adoption of this amendment, which I'll describe in a moment, as it gets closer and closer to the two-thirds necessary and Congress would be required to call the convention, you'll see some reaction on the part of congress to attempt to placate the states that want to call this. Now, the constitutional amendment is a simple one. It simply abolishes the 16th Amendment and states affirmatively that Congress shall have no power to tax the personal incomes of individual persons. If that were enacted, it would starve the federal government back into the original footprint that the founders intended for it. But as it gets closer to enactment, Congress will have to do something for fear that it might be enacted. Americans with Disabilities Act The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), originally sponsored by Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) and then-Representative Tony Coehlo (D-CA) and signed by President George H.W. Bush, "prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in employment, transportation, public accommodation, communications, and governmental activities." Recently, it has been attacked by conservative pundits and candidates. Stossel: "well-intentioned" ADA "unleashed a landslide of lawsuits," requires that people be treated unequally." In his September 1 column, Stossel attacked the ADA, saying that it "requires that people be treated unequally" by requiring employers to accommodate disabled employees. He added: The law has also unleashed a landslide of lawsuits by "professional litigants" who file a hundred suits at a time. Disabled people visit businesses to look for violations, but instead of simply asking that a violation be corrected, they partner with lawyers who (legally) extort settlement money from the businesses. Stossel: ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." On the September 2 edition of Fox & Friends, Stossel said that the ADA is "doing the disabled more harm than good." Stossel said that "all these laws mean well," but that "these laws always have unintended consequences, and often they are worse than the good that the law was supposed to do." Civil Rights Act of 1964 The Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- signed by President Lyndon Johnson and opposed by then-Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater -- "prohibited discrimination in public places, provided for the integration of schools and other public facilities, and made employment discrimination illegal." Stossel calls for repeal of public accommodations section of Civil Rights Act. On the May 20 edition of Fox News' America Live, Stossel said that "it's time now to repeal" the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act, which outlaws discrimination by private businesses, "because private business ought to get to discriminate." Stossel repeatedly defended his advocacy for a right to discriminate. Stossel reiterated his call to eliminate the public accommodations section of the Civil Rights Act in two FoxBusiness.com blog posts, on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, and in his syndicated column. Voting Rights Act of 1965 The Voting Rights Act of 1965, signed by President Johnson after he "issued a call for a strong voting rights law," outlawed a number of discriminatory voting practices, including requiring literacy tests as a prerequisite for voting. Briggs: Enforcement of Voting Rights Act "not a proper use of funds." During the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, guest host Dave Briggs claimed that the Department of Justice "is demanding" that election officials in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, print ballots in Spanish," and said, "The cost, again, $500,000 estimated, for what some say is 6,000 voters, which does sound like not a proper use of funds." He then asked a guest, "But, beyond that, I mean, do you think this is something that is absolutely required, is necessary, in our country?" According to media reports, at issue is a provision of federal law originally enacted in the Voting Rights Act explicitly protecting the right to vote of Puerto Rican voters educated in U.S. schools regardless of their ability to understand English. Nuclear arms control For decades, presidents of both parties negotiated and signed treaties with the Soviet Union (later Russia) to reduce the nuclear arsenals of both nations. President Ronald Reagan, who signed the START I treaty, repeatedly stated that his "ultimate goal" was the "total elimination of nuclear weapons." More recently, conservatives have panned President Obama's new START treaty, which would further reduce nuclear arsenals, and even questioned the importance of nuclear reductions in the first place. Hannity: "We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons," "we can never return to a world" without them. In Sean Hannity's 2010 book, Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: [W]e must be committed to retaining our position as the world's greatest superpower, by maintaining the world's strongest military and supporting our troops on and off the battlefield. We must not dismantle our nuclear weapons and must persist in perfecting our strategic missile defenses. [Page 222] He also writes: Conservatives, on the other hand, recognize that we live in a dangerous world, and that the world will always be dangerous because human beings are fallen. The nuclear genie is out of the bottle; the world has changed; much as we would like, we can never return to a world without nuclear weapons. [Page 209] Abortion rights In the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court held that the constitutional right to privacy extends to a woman's decision to have an abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy, and in the second and third trimesters under certain circumstances. Since then, progressives have traditionally argued in favor of the decision and the right it preserved, while conservatives have opposed it. Napolitano compared Roe v. Wade to Dred Scott case. On the April 28, 2009, edition of Glenn Beck, Napolitano said: Dred Scott is a slave who was taken to a free state, Illinois, and while there, sues for his freedom. The case goes up and down, up and down. It finally goes to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court could have said slavery is lawful. The Supreme Court could have said all human beings are free and he's free. Instead it said, blacks are not persons and therefore don't have the right to bring lawsuits. This horrific determination by a court that a class of human beings are denied personhood -- fast forward a hundred years -- is the same logic the Supreme Court used in Roe versus Wade -- babies in the wombs are not persons. Hannity calls for "protecting the lives of the innocent unborn" by "striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges." In Conservative Victory, Hannity writes: I certainly can't, in good conscience, make a raw political calculation about protecting the lives of the innocent unborn as casually as if we were talking about a no-smoking ban in a restaurant. We must continue to press for restrictions on abortion (such as parental notification) while striving for the appointment of Constitution-respecting judges and continuing our nonpolitical efforts to persuade Americans of the horrors and immorality of abortion. [Page 152] Ingraham: "49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible." On the June 4, 2009, edition of The O'Reilly Factor, contributor Laura Ingraham said (accessed from Nexis): [W]hen you talk about the issue of abortion, and someone killing an abortion doctor, that allows you to create sympathy for the entire abortion movement. And 60,000 dead as you pointed out by the hands of George Tiller. Five abortion doctors have been killed since Roe versus Wade. Five. Now it's horrible, but 49 million babies have been aborted since Roe versus Wade. Five abortion doctors. It's all killing and it's all terrible. O'Reilly repeatedly called Dr. Tiller "the baby killer." On numerous instances in 2009, Bill O'Reilly referred to Kansas abortion provider Dr. George Tiller as "Tiller the baby killer." After Tiller's murder, O'Reilly repeatedly falsely claimed that he had only reported" anti-abortion groups referring to Tiller in that fashion. Labor unions In 1935, President Franklin Roosevelt signed the National Labor Relations Act "to protect the rights of employees and employers, to encourage collective bargaining, and to curtail certain private sector labor and management practices." Labor unions have long been part of the progressive coalition, while conservatives have worked to limit their right to bargain collectively. Regular Fox segment: "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Fox News and Fox Business regularly run segments titled, "Unions: Can America Afford Them?" Varney: Unions are "the antithesis of freedom," "fortunately" private sector unions "have retreated," but public sector unions are still a "problem." On the September 4 edition of Fox Business' Freedom Watch, asked by Napolitano for his "observations from your native country in England" about whether unions help or hurt the average worker," Varney replied: "Unions were a disaster for the British economy. They are the antithesis of freedom. They impose rigid workplace rules that have no place in a modern economy." Later, Varney commented: "Fortunately, unions have retreated in the private sector. It is in the public sector where they rule, and that is the nature of some of our problems." He added that "taxpayers" and "the concept of freedom and liberty" "suffer" from the existence of unions. Kristol: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." On the October 18, 2009, edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, contributor Bill Kristol declared: "Thank God most of the workforce isn't unionized." Beck says unions have "raped" police and fire fighters. On the August 4 edition of his radio program, Glenn Beck said of unions: "Look what they ve done to the police and firemen. They've raped these guys. Along with politicians. Along with politicians -- raped them. The bravest among us." Beck went on to ask, "What, do you think the politicians are not in bed with the unions?" Beck blames unions for woes of local governments and industries. On the February 25 edition of The Glenn Beck Program, Beck blamed unions for the financial woes of local governments, the auto industry, airlines, schools, the steel industry, and the textile industry. He continued: "Mr. President, until you get the unions out of this business, I don't think we have anything to talk about." Beck regularly attacks union members as "thugs." On numerous occasions on both his Fox News and radio programs, Beck has referred to union members as "thugs" or "enforcers." Carlson blames cost of living in NYC on "union pensions" and "raising taxes" for "schools." On the August 5 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson asserted that the cost of living in New York City, California, and Honolulu is "so expensive" "because of union pensions; because of raising costs for other things; for raising taxes along the way for schools." Carlson concluded: "If you go back in history and look at who incorporated a lot of that, maybe the blame comes right back to the same party. Or maybe it doesn't." Cavuto tells union spokesman: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there." During the January 11 edition of Your World, Stewart Acuff of the Utility Workers Union of America appeared to discuss union leader opposition to a tax on health care plans backed by President Obama. Host Neil Cavuto told Acuff: "You politely do your Tony Soprano thing, albeit in your little sweater vest there, 'cause you're such a decent guy, but you're saying 'Mr. President, may I remind you that you are sitting in this room because of us.' Which is a very nice way of saying, 'Tread slowly, big guy.' " Cavuto likened unions to Hurricane Earl on a "collision course on our towns. During the September 2 edition of Your World, Cavuto compared unions to Hurricane Earl, saying, "The monster and the mess. Your World on top of Earl's collision course with our coast and what could be unions' collision course with our towns." Cavuto added: "And get ready for Earl's wallop and, to hear some state and local governments tell it, unions' direct hit on their wallet." Department of Education The Department of Education was established by President Jimmy Carter in 1979 and serves to "to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access." Conservatives have long called for the Department's dissolution. Beck's "Plan": "[A]bolish the Department of Education." On the April 14 edition of his Fox News show, while detailing his "Plan" for the U.S. budget Beck said: "We need to get control of our schools back to the parents, back to the states. The best way to do this is to abolish the Department of Education. We certainly don't need to be giving them more money. The federal government should only be responsible for the things that the states cannot do." Unemployment insurance The Federal Unemployment Tax Act, signed by President Roosevelt in 1939, together with the Social Security Act of 1935, established the modern U.S. system of unemployment insurance, in which employers pay payroll taxes to the federal and state governments which are used by the states to finance benefits to those who become unemployed through no fault of their own. Conservatives have often attacked the system of unemployment insurance as well as those who receive unemployment benefits. Varney seizes on claim that "unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9 5 percent," if Congress hadn't "extended unemployment benefits." On the August 31 edition of Fox & Friends, Varney cited a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Harvard economics professor and Hoover Institute senior fellow Robert Barro to claim that, in Varney's words, "If we had not extended unemployment benefits to 99 weeks from the standard 26 weeks, [Barro] says, unemployment would be at 6.8 percent, not the 9.5 percent." According to Varney, Barro argued that "you extend benefits like this, and it discourages people from going out to look for work especially, you know, the start of the benefit period, because it's nearly two years." Barro's theory a nd similar claims -- that extending unemployment benefits in the current recession provide a disincentive for people to find work -- have been widely disputed by experts. Kilmeade: "Maybe" eliminating "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up" and get jobs. On the July 15 edition of Fox & Friends, referencing Senate Republicans who had blocked extending unemployment benefits, co-host Brian Kilmeade told Partnership Staffing Inc CEO Bill Auchmoody that "maybe" the elimination of "unemployment benefits will get people to sober up and take some of your offers." Hannity falsely suggested Fed said unemployment benefit extension increased ranks of those without jobs. On the February 22 edition of his show, Hannity claimed that the economic recovery act "actually raised unemployment," citing minutes from a January Federal Reserve meeting to falsely suggest that the extension of unemployment benefits in the recovery act increased the number of people who don't have jobs. In fact, the Federal Reserve minutes Hannity cited actually stated that the provision had the effect of raising the measured unemployment rate because people who lost their jobs sought to remain in the workforce in order to receive benefits rather than leaving the workforce and being counted as "discouraged workers" instead of unemployed." Bolling: Unemployment benefits are about "allowing someone to stay out of work for longer." On the February 11 edition of Your World, Christian Dorsey of the Economic Policy Institute explained to guest host Bolling how unemployment benefits provide economic stimulus and create jobs. Bolling replied, "Had you told me that some of the tax credits, or the payroll tax holidays were a good thing, I probably would have agreed with you, but when you tell me that another entitlement program -- allowing someone to stay out of work for longer -- and you tell me that's a job creator, I'm just going to have to disagree with you." Beck: Unemployed workers who don't take low-paying jobs have "sold their soul" to the government." On the August 12 edition of his radio show, Beck said that "you now have people who are on unemployment, but they wont' take another job," purportedly because they pay less than unemployment benefits. Beck said that those people "have sold their soul to the government, they have sold their pride." Beck on "some" protesting expiration of unemployment benefits: "I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans." On the August 16 edition of his Fox News show, Beck discussed a protest of "99ers," people whose unemployment insurance benefits have run out after 99 weeks. Beck said: The 99ers. These people, some of which I -- frankly, I bet you'd be ashamed to call them Americans. They think that 99 weeks on unemployment benefits just aren't enough. Last week, they went out to Wall Street and they protested. Ninety-niner Connie Kaplan asked, "Are you going to tell us, Mr. President and Congress, that our lives are not worth saving?" Connie, here's an idea. I'll save your life. Don't spend your remaining money on travel to get to a protest. Go out and get a job. You may not want the job. Work at McDonald's. Work two jobs. Environmental Protection Agency The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was established in 1970 under President Richard Nixon and works to "protect human health and to safeguard the natural environment -- air, water and land -- upon which life depends." Its work has long been opposed by conservatives. Gingrich: EPA "needs to be replaced." In his 2010 book, To Save America: Stopping Obama's Secular-Socialist Machine, Fox contributor Newt Gingrich writes: "The EPA has become an engine of undemocratic bureaucracy filled with people who seek to impose their fanatical views on an unwilling American population. The EPA and its entire regulation-litigation, Washington-centered, command-and-control bureaucracy needs to be replaced." (Page 151) Gingrich does not explain in the book what he proposes to replace the EPA with. Asked that question during a May 17 interview on Fox News Sunday, Gingrich did not answer directly, instead saying: Well, first of all, in the case of the Environmental Protection Agency, you have a -- you have a bureaucracy which is self- selected of people who believe they have the right to make the most amazing micro-management judgments around the whole country. And if you look at the degree to which they now issue rules, believe they can regulate the entire carbon economy -- and again, you want to talk about socialism. How about having a government agency of unelected people who decide they can literally rewrite the entire economy based on carbon? And I think it's very hard to reform an agency which has spent two generations recruiting people who are more and more anti-business, more and more anti-commercial activity, and who represent a value system that's very hard to deal with. Progressive taxation Liberals traditionally support progressive taxation, in which those with less income are taxed at a lower rate than those with higher incomes. Conservatives have opposed that system of taxation in favor of "flat taxes" in which everyone pays the same tax rate. Beck lashed out at "protected poor" taking tax money from the rich. On the January 12 edition of his Fox News show, Glenn Beck used pie as a prop to show how the "protected poor" in the "bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend" while the "evil rich people" in the top one percent of income earners pay much more: Here's the pie. This represents all of the money that we have in the federal government, all the taxes that are paid. Well, let's see who isn't paying their fair share. You decide. Is it the top 1 percent? This is the entire budget, all of our revenue, all of our revenue. How much do the top 1 percent pay? Only -- only about this much. That's it. Only -- it's gonna be -- if I can get underneath here, and it's going to be yummy. Only about this much. That s the top 1 percent. Oh, I hate those evil rich people! When will they pay their fair share? This again is 1 percent. OK? Now, how about the top 2 percent to the top 10 percent? OK? So, this would include the 1 percent here and the rest of them in the top 10 percent. That would be -- let's see -- that would be about here. We have from 2 percent to 10 percent, they're paying -- hmm, doesn't the pie look yummy now? I want some, seriously. OK, so that's -- this is the top 10 percent. So, I got to put 10 people in the pie. That's 10 people. Now, we've got now 71 percent of the pie. The top 50 percent of pie- eaters account for -- now, this is the rest of the top 50 percent -- and that's going to be these people. Got it? We got to put 50 people to pay for that piece of pie. One, nine, fifty. This represents the bottom 50 percent. They pay -- do I have any more? Yes. They pay the bottom 3 percent. OK? So, don't you hate this one guy? Oh, my gosh, he's just not paying enough. Got it? He's paying 40 percent. Now, the top -- the bottom 3 percent I have to -- I have to let you know, the bottom 50 percent, that 3 percent, they pay -- the bottom 50 percent pays only 3 percent of everything that we spend. The rest of it is put in a protected poor pie place. They got their own pie, never even touched. In fact, from time to time -- it's so great -- from time to time, we just whip people up in such a frenzy where we're like, "I hate those people. Give them some pie!" Every year, we just give them some of the more -- yeah, we just give it to them, because we hate the top 1 percent. We just take more of their pie and we put it in the protected zone now. Nobody, nobody could get in the protected zone. No! Don't take the poor pie. It's these people that we hate. These people are good. Got it? Hannity repeatedly makes false complaint that "half of Americans ... don't pay taxes." Sean Hannity has complained over and over that "50 percent of American households no longer pay taxes," using the purported fact to ask, What does that mean for America if you have a voting electorate that's not paying any taxes?" In fact, while 47 percent of U.S. households will reportedly pay no federal income tax in fiscal 2010, as the Associated Press noted, "[t]he vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, a viation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property." Contact: Fox News Channel FOX News Channel 1-888-369-4762 1211 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10036 http://twitter.com/foxnews You can help support our work: donate to Media Matters for America. This mail was sent by Media Matters for America to 'steelem at pacificu.edu'. To change your email subscription preferences, visit http://mediamatters org/users/account_preferences [http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tracker.gif?rid=53030894] _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/c806c2dd/attachment-0001.gif From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 13:51:34 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 13:51:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: <4C86A272.000049.03336@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB9C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <4C86A272.000049.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Nawgonna. On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > Why does Obama say people talk about him as a dog? Dogs are good. > At least > his dog Bo has papers. > > > > Memo to Obama: This is Why they talk about you like a ?dog? > By Ben Johnson, Floyd Reports > > Seeing his popularity diminishing before his eyes, Barack Obama sought > comfort in the steely arms of Big Labor yesterday. The most > criticism-averse > president in history whined that it was ?special interests? who > opposed his > agenda ? and these people were not very nice. Looking deliberately > into the > camera, he tried out a down-home phrase to show solidarity with the > union > rabble. ?They talk about me like a dog,? said the Cornpone Kenyan. > ?That?s > not in my prepared remarks,? he lied, ?but it?s true.? > > By recent standards, he?s lived a charmed life. His left-wing > friends in the > anti-(American) war movement are not in the streets comparing him > to Hitler > or calling for his assassination. > > Glenn Beck?s crowds gather to pray. But there may be a reason he > receives > less than universal adulation, even occasionally scathing remarks > about his > job as president: he deserves them, and a Hell of a lot more. > > This president has elevated members of the radical Left to the > heights of > power. He selected ?Green Jobs? czar Van Jones, the 9/11 Truther > and Marxist > who also believed Hurricane Katrina might be an inside job. His > current > Science Czar, John Holdren, has written in support of compulsory > abortion > for American woman and absorbing our national soveriegnty into ?A > Comprehensive Planetary Regime.? The man entrusted with enforcing > justice, > Eric Holder, once sought Bill Clinton?s pardon of Marc Rich, believes > America is ?a nation of cowards,? and is busy dragging tough > sheriffs to > court while letting Black Panthers get off scot free. - > ================ > > Question: Who is the racist here? > > GASP, who is plying the time worn dog eared racist card here? > ___________________________ > ____________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From g-g-steele at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 14:53:59 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 14:53:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] In-Reply-To: References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB9C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C86A272.000049.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7B47E35E816046EE85D87AB63119B8CA@GeriPC> LOL, Walt... yeah, ridiculous tripe. :) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:51 PM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] > Nawgonna. > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Why does Obama say people talk about him as a dog? Dogs are good. >> At least >> his dog Bo has papers. >> >> >> >> Memo to Obama: This is Why they talk about you like a ?dog? >> By Ben Johnson, Floyd Reports >> >> Seeing his popularity diminishing before his eyes, Barack Obama sought >> comfort in the steely arms of Big Labor yesterday. The most >> criticism-averse >> president in history whined that it was ?special interests? who >> opposed his >> agenda ? and these people were not very nice. Looking deliberately >> into the >> camera, he tried out a down-home phrase to show solidarity with the >> union >> rabble. ?They talk about me like a dog,? said the Cornpone Kenyan. >> ?That?s >> not in my prepared remarks,? he lied, ?but it?s true.? >> >> By recent standards, he?s lived a charmed life. His left-wing >> friends in the >> anti-(American) war movement are not in the streets comparing him >> to Hitler >> or calling for his assassination. >> >> Glenn Beck?s crowds gather to pray. But there may be a reason he >> receives >> less than universal adulation, even occasionally scathing remarks >> about his >> job as president: he deserves them, and a Hell of a lot more. >> >> This president has elevated members of the radical Left to the >> heights of >> power. He selected ?Green Jobs? czar Van Jones, the 9/11 Truther >> and Marxist >> who also believed Hurricane Katrina might be an inside job. His >> current >> Science Czar, John Holdren, has written in support of compulsory >> abortion >> for American woman and absorbing our national soveriegnty into ?A >> Comprehensive Planetary Regime.? The man entrusted with enforcing >> justice, >> Eric Holder, once sought Bill Clinton?s pardon of Marc Rich, believes >> America is ?a nation of cowards,? and is busy dragging tough >> sheriffs to >> court while letting Black Panthers get off scot free. - >> ================ >> >> Question: Who is the racist here? >> >> GASP, who is plying the time worn dog eared racist card here? >> ___________________________ >> ____________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 16:10:52 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 16:10:52 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB759@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><1781165294-1283886705-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-839155845-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E41DB9C9@everest.ad.pacificu.edu><4C86A272.000049.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <7B47E35E816046EE85D87AB63119B8CA@GeriPC> Message-ID: <4C86C677.00005A.03336@DON-B2514E06367> The scary part is it is true tripe. That is no joke. Don -------Original Message------- From: Geri Steele Date: 9/7/2010 2:54:10 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] LOL, Walt... yeah, ridiculous tripe. :) Geri -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:51 PM To: "donkelly" ; "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios [sic] > Nawgonna. > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 1:37 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Why does Obama say people talk about him as a dog? Dogs are good. >> At least >> his dog Bo has papers. >> >> >> >> Memo to Obama: This is Why they talk about you like a ?dog? >> By Ben Johnson, Floyd Reports >> >> Seeing his popularity diminishing before his eyes, Barack Obama sought >> comfort in the steely arms of Big Labor yesterday. The most >> criticism-averse >> president in history whined that it was ?special interests? who >> opposed his >> agenda ? and these people were not very nice. Looking deliberately >> into the >> camera, he tried out a down-home phrase to show solidarity with the >> union >> rabble. ?They talk about me like a dog,? said the Cornpone Kenyan. >> ?That?s >> not in my prepared remarks,? he lied, ?but it?s true.? >> >> By recent standards, he?s lived a charmed life. His left-wing >> friends in the >> anti-(American) war movement are not in the streets comparing him >> to Hitler >> or calling for his assassination. >> >> Glenn Beck?s crowds gather to pray. But there may be a reason he >> receives >> less than universal adulation, even occasionally scathing remarks >> about his >> job as president: he deserves them, and a Hell of a lot more. >> >> This president has elevated members of the radical Left to the >> heights of >> power. He selected ?Green Jobs? czar Van Jones, the 9/11 Truther >> and Marxist >> who also believed Hurricane Katrina might be an inside job. His >> current >> Science Czar, John Holdren, has written in support of compulsory >> abortion >> for American woman and absorbing our national soveriegnty into ?A >> Comprehensive Planetary Regime.? The man entrusted with enforcing >> justice, >> Eric Holder, once sought Bill Clinton?s pardon of Marc Rich, believes >> America is ?a nation of cowards,? and is busy dragging tough >> sheriffs to >> court while letting Black Panthers get off scot free. - >> ================ >> >> Question: Who is the racist here? >> >> GASP, who is plying the time worn dog eared racist card here? >> ___________________________ >> ____________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100907/cda0d893/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 22:27:19 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:27:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: <13924-4C868780-5980@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13924-4C868780-5980@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I'm a kid. David On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > http://www.grovenet.org/General/kids.html > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 22:57:15 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:57:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5403EA0E-2E61-49D9-A99D-9A7A1B81A270@verizon.net> There was a short piece on TV tonight. Chris Dudley wants to build up a "rainy day" fund. Not a bad idea. I wonder if he intends to repeal the "kicker" completely? David On Sep 5, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > The Tea Party... > > Katie... > I am still studying the pros and cons, but hope to decide before the > next Presidential Election... so far as I can tell they and they and the > green party are not much different > > ~A~ That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 23:06:50 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 23:06:50 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] another typo In-Reply-To: <4340-4C8672AD-3651@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <4340-4C8672AD-3651@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I wonder if we will hear the old complaint that "Hollywood actors shouldn't get involved in politics". David On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Mr Ed asked ... What is a Fred Dalton? > > Well read this and find out ... > http://tinyurl.com/Fred-D-Thompson > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! > roses _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Tue Sep 7 23:16:34 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2010 23:16:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> That particular death panel has been in place for decades. Every time a health insurance company denies benefits, they are deciding who gets care and who doesn't. Every time a health insurance company determines that a chronic, fatal condition is "pre-existing and not subject to coverage" it is a potential death sentence. And there are good statistics to support the argument that some private health insurance companies routinely deny benefits which are covered, just to delay the payments. In come cases, the companies intentionally deny benefits because the legal expense to delay the payments until the insured dies is less than the medical expense of keeping them alive. So, please, don't get on a high horse on this issue. David On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > ... > Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide who lives and who dies, to reduce the costs of health care? From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 23:51:49 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 23:51:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 is still young at heart most of the time. anyway, I posted this just for fun.. and I think is a good idea for the grove folks take a look at the grove nets pages, and its mission statement! I'm still trying to figure out who the board of directors are. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/e918989e/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 7 23:51:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 23:51:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <25697-4C873287-12@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 is still young at heart most of the time. anyway, I posted this just for fun.. and I think is a good idea for the grove folks take a look at the grove nets pages, and its mission statement! I'm still trying to figure out who the board of directors are. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100907/3dbf7ffc/attachment.html From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 01:05:06 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 01:05:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> Message-ID: David, I certainly agree with you on this issue. I'm reminded of a surgeon I talked to some years ago regarding a surgery that my son needed. Although the long term negative effects of my son not having the surgery were well known, and even though he was eligible for the surgery in every regard, the fact that it was not an immediate, life-threatening condition, put his future care in a class where it was common practice by insurance providers to deny the procedure until all other alternatives had been explored (even tho in the surgeon's learned opinion, the alternatives would not ameliorate the problem in this case and would only serve to delay the inevitable). In a very rare moment (and in whispered tones), the surgeon pulled me aside and told me what he thought of the corporate practice of denying medically necessities. The colorful language he used was certainly not for prime time. I also remembering him saying that our health care system in this country was basically at the mercy of non-medical, know-nothings sitting in tiny cubicles making decisions on whether to approve or deny services based solely upon actuarial data (that ultimately favored their bottom line) and NOT upon compassionate concerns for our health and well being. He went further to say that they routinely denied eligible benefits time after again (he said it was a common practice that was meant to discourage policy holders and to ultimately encourage some to give up and drop their pursuit of the care they so desperately needed). I wonder how many people have actually died from these delays (my guess is 10's of thousands a year). So much for compassion (a word that is no where to be found in the corporate vernacular). So yes, the death panels have been there all along (and they ain't the government). Corporations have had a strangle hold on our national health care system since the rise of their greed (where the almighty dollar is worshiped at the expense of compassionate care). And in an unregulated business environment, we humans of flesh and blood will continue to be further marginalized. I continue to be nonplussed with those people who see the government as the evil doer in this miserable mess we call a health care system. Without the reforms that are working their way down the political pipelines, our system of health care under these dispassionate corporations would further decay into a morass of shameful practices that would leave all but the very rich lacking adequate care. When I hear the phony outcries against these false government death panels, I must admit that I both laugh and cry at the shear stupidity in those who actually believe in them. How sad. How wrong. How very, very wrong. jimz PS: The wolves are at the door and they have a name, and these names can be found on Wall Street and not on Pennsylvania Avenue. Ask not for whom the Teabagger Trolls, he trolls for thee! On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > That particular death panel has been in place for decades. > > Every time a health insurance company denies benefits, they are deciding > who gets care and who doesn't. Every time a health insurance company > determines that a chronic, fatal condition is "pre-existing and not subject > to coverage" it is a potential death sentence. And there are good > statistics to support the argument that some private health insurance > companies routinely deny benefits which are covered, just to delay the > payments. In come cases, the companies intentionally deny benefits because > the legal expense to delay the payments until the insured dies is less than > the medical expense of keeping them alive. > > So, please, don't get on a high horse on this issue. > > David > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > ... > > Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide who lives and > who dies, to reduce the costs of health care? > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 06:34:52 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 13:34:52 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com><4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367><004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com><4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367><1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1407506792-1283952895-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-907149853-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I don't think it will change with the government system. We have had laws and courts to oversee private insurance. Who will be th watchdog over government? I read the bill. It is set up under the executive branch. No congressional oversight. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Zaleski Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 01:05:06 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios David, I certainly agree with you on this issue. I'm reminded of a surgeon I talked to some years ago regarding a surgery that my son needed. Although the long term negative effects of my son not having the surgery were well known, and even though he was eligible for the surgery in every regard, the fact that it was not an immediate, life-threatening condition, put his future care in a class where it was common practice by insurance providers to deny the procedure until all other alternatives had been explored (even tho in the surgeon's learned opinion, the alternatives would not ameliorate the problem in this case and would only serve to delay the inevitable). In a very rare moment (and in whispered tones), the surgeon pulled me aside and told me what he thought of the corporate practice of denying medically necessities. The colorful language he used was certainly not for prime time. I also remembering him saying that our health care system in this country was basically at the mercy of non-medical, know-nothings sitting in tiny cubicles making decisions on whether to approve or deny services based solely upon actuarial data (that ultimately favored their bottom line) and NOT upon compassionate concerns for our health and well being. He went further to say that they routinely denied eligible benefits time after again (he said it was a common practice that was meant to discourage policy holders and to ultimately encourage some to give up and drop their pursuit of the care they so desperately needed). I wonder how many people have actually died from these delays (my guess is 10's of thousands a year). So much for compassion (a word that is no where to be found in the corporate vernacular). So yes, the death panels have been there all along (and they ain't the government). Corporations have had a strangle hold on our national health care system since the rise of their greed (where the almighty dollar is worshiped at the expense of compassionate care). And in an unregulated business environment, we humans of flesh and blood will continue to be further marginalized. I continue to be nonplussed with those people who see the government as the evil doer in this miserable mess we call a health care system. Without the reforms that are working their way down the political pipelines, our system of health care under these dispassionate corporations would further decay into a morass of shameful practices that would leave all but the very rich lacking adequate care. When I hear the phony outcries against these false government death panels, I must admit that I both laugh and cry at the shear stupidity in those who actually believe in them. How sad. How wrong. How very, very wrong. jimz PS: The wolves are at the door and they have a name, and these names can be found on Wall Street and not on Pennsylvania Avenue. Ask not for whom the Teabagger Trolls, he trolls for thee! On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:16 PM, David Morelli wrote: > That particular death panel has been in place for decades. > > Every time a health insurance company denies benefits, they are deciding > who gets care and who doesn't. Every time a health insurance company > determines that a chronic, fatal condition is "pre-existing and not subject > to coverage" it is a potential death sentence. And there are good > statistics to support the argument that some private health insurance > companies routinely deny benefits which are covered, just to delay the > payments. In come cases, the companies intentionally deny benefits because > the legal expense to delay the payments until the insured dies is less than > the medical expense of keeping them alive. > > So, please, don't get on a high horse on this issue. > > David > > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:36 AM, donkelly wrote: > > > ... > > Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide who lives and > who dies, to reduce the costs of health care? > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:05:03 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:05:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: <255-4C87980F-539@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> here is another item an OleHoss thinks would be a good idea for every one reads. I review it now and again to remind me what the grove net is all about. http://www.grovenet.org/Grovenet/mission.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/113e4433/attachment.html From hannah at teleport.com Wed Sep 8 07:07:06 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:07:06 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2E?= Message-ID: We?ve been through some fun things with medical care and the insurance companies too. When she was young, my daughter needed a surgical procedure. Back then the ?rules? were far less detrimental to the patient. But the doctor said, we could do this as a day patient...but your insurance won?t pay for that, so bring her in the afternoon before. We did and all went well. But there came a time when the money counters figured out that a 3 day stay was cheaper than a 4 or 5 day stay...and suddenly there was a set limit to how long a patient could stay in the hospital. It did not make a difference whether the patient was a kid who bounces back with the speed of light...or an 85 year old who just takes longer (and may have less care available at home too)...or a person who was not so old but just didn?t respond well to something and took longer than expected to recover. Three days was it. How do you suppose that effected a person?s life? And one final story. My son had in-out day surgery for a hernia. They sent him home with ?if it bleeds too much, call us? as a directive. Our family has no medical training (tho lots of experience with things that can happen). We had no idea what ?too much? might mean. It bled. I called the doctor as directed. He was out. No one seemed able to ?find? him or make any other decision. After about 2 hours of that, the last call I made reached the same ?we?re still trying? response...and I told them not to bother because we were headed for the hospital as soon as we could get him seated in the car. (I believe I pulled out my Grandpa?s vocabulary to do so.) And yes, it was serious. And they kept him a couple days that time. So you can see that even the insurance company could see a problem of import. Indeed, there are people out there playing with our health...it?s not the doctor and his experience...it?s not the government who knows only long after and in the ?generic data?...it is the ones who run that insurance company and think making more money will be good?for someone. Kristy From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:09:56 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:09:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:57:15 -0700 Message-ID: <258-4C879934-201@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> David wrote...There was a short piece on TV tonight. Chris Dudley wants to build up a "rainy day" fund. Not a bad idea. I wonder if he intends to repeal the "kicker" completely? ============== David ... I missed this... Please expain the rainy day fund and a kicker, and what if anything would they be used for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/88e4f14e/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:19:04 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:19:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Greeting For You Message-ID: <257-4C879B58-249@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Morning :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/coffeemorn-l.html A good read: http://tinyurl.com/26c8j2t -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/93a0814e/attachment.html From nospam03 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 07:28:09 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:28:09 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] =?windows-1252?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?windows-1252?q?=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <699106204-1283956092-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-858861448-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> How will that be with government insurance? -----Original Message----- From: Kristy Gravlin Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:07:06 To: nospam03 at comcast.net,Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] And my 2 ? on insurance rules.. . We?ve been through some fun things with medical care and the insurance companies too. When she was young, my daughter needed a surgical procedure. Back then the ?rules? were far less detrimental to the patient. But the doctor said, we could do this as a day patient...but your insurance won?t pay for that, so bring her in the afternoon before. We did and all went well. But there came a time when the money counters figured out that a 3 day stay was cheaper than a 4 or 5 day stay...and suddenly there was a set limit to how long a patient could stay in the hospital. It did not make a difference whether the patient was a kid who bounces back with the speed of light...or an 85 year old who just takes longer (and may have less care available at home too)...or a person who was not so old but just didn?t respond well to something and took longer than expected to recover. Three days was it. How do you suppose that effected a person?s life? And one final story. My son had in-out day surgery for a hernia. They sent him home with ?if it bleeds too much, call us? as a directive. Our family has no medical training (tho lots of experience with things that can happen). We had no idea what ?too much? might mean. It bled. I called the doctor as directed. He was out. No one seemed able to ?find? him or make any other decision. After about 2 hours of that, the last call I made reached the same ?we?re still trying? response...and I told them not to bother because we were headed for the hospital as soon as we could get him seated in the car. (I believe I pulled out my Grandpa?s vocabulary to do so.) And yes, it was serious. And they kept him a couple days that time. So you can see that even the insurance company could see a problem of import. Indeed, there are people out there playing with our health...it?s not the doctor and his experience...it?s not the government who knows only long after and in the ?generic data?...it is the ones who run that insurance company and think making more money will be good?for someone. Kristy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:31:05 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:31:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] another typo In-Reply-To: David Morelli 's message of Tue, 07 Sep 2010 23:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: <256-4C879E29-427@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> David wrote ...I wonder if we will hear the old complaint that "Hollywood actors shouldn't get involved in politics". ----- David... I thought that an OleHoss was the only one guilty of typo's -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/9382b519/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 8 07:39:31 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:39:31 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com> <4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com> <4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367> <1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46602E75-0BA2-4209-BBE1-2C362F81A7AB@teleport.com> Jim: Your post is eloquent, sensible and unanswerable! Is "pure Capitalism" the answer to all our problems? I submit it is the cause of many of them. Any "absolute good," followed to its logical conclusion, leads to evil consequences. A pragmatic mixture of approaches to any problem, picking and choosing to find whatever works in the best interests of the people and the nation-- and adapting those approaches according to changing situations-- would seem the best and most rational way for us to live. Unfortunately, pragmatism and rationality seem largely absent from government today, being replaced by corporate bribery and bullying, interminable scare campaigns and political "disinformation" disguised as "news." Not that I am being pessimistic, of course... WW On Sep 8, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > David, I certainly agree with you on this issue. I'm reminded of a > surgeon I > talked to some years ago regarding a surgery that my son needed. > Although > the long term negative effects of my son not having the surgery > were well > known, and even though he was eligible for the surgery in every > regard, the > fact that it was not an immediate, life-threatening condition, put his > future care in a class where it was common practice by insurance > providers > to deny the procedure until all other alternatives had been > explored (even > tho in the surgeon's learned opinion, the alternatives would not > ameliorate > the problem in this case and would only serve to delay the > inevitable). > > In a very rare moment (and in whispered tones), the surgeon pulled > me aside > and told me what he thought of the corporate practice of denying > medically > necessities. The colorful language he used was certainly not for > prime time. > I also remembering him saying that our health care system in this > country > was basically at the mercy of non-medical, know-nothings sitting in > tiny > cubicles making decisions on whether to approve or deny services based > solely upon actuarial data (that ultimately favored their bottom > line) and > NOT upon compassionate concerns for our health and well being. He went > further to say that they routinely denied eligible benefits time > after again > (he said it was a common practice that was meant to discourage policy > holders and to ultimately encourage some to give up and drop their > pursuit > of the care they so desperately needed). I wonder how many people have > actually died from these delays (my guess is 10's of thousands a > year). So > much for compassion (a word that is no where to be found in the > corporate > vernacular). > > So yes, the death panels have been there all along (and they ain't the > government). Corporations have had a strangle hold on our national > health > care system since the rise of their greed (where the almighty > dollar is > worshiped at the expense of compassionate care). And in an unregulated > business environment, we humans of flesh and blood will continue to be > further marginalized. I continue to be nonplussed with those people > who see > the government as the evil doer in this miserable mess we call a > health care > system. Without the reforms that are working their way down the > political > pipelines, our system of health care under these dispassionate > corporations > would further decay into a morass of shameful practices that would > leave all > but the very rich lacking adequate care. > > When I hear the phony outcries against these false government death > panels, > I must admit that I both laugh and cry at the shear stupidity in > those who > actually believe in them. How sad. How wrong. How very, very wrong. > > jimz > > PS: The wolves are at the door and they have a name, and these > names can be > found on Wall Street and not on Pennsylvania Avenue. Ask not for > whom the > Teabagger Trolls, he trolls for thee! > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:16 PM, David Morelli > wrote: > >> That particular death panel has been in place for decades. >> >> Every time a health insurance company denies benefits, they are >> deciding >> who gets care and who doesn't. Every time a health insurance company >> determines that a chronic, fatal condition is "pre-existing and >> not subject >> to coverage" it is a potential death sentence. And there are good >> statistics to support the argument that some private health insurance >> companies routinely deny benefits which are covered, just to delay >> the >> payments. In come cases, the companies intentionally deny >> benefits because >> the legal expense to delay the payments until the insured dies is >> less than >> the medical expense of keeping them alive. >> >> So, please, don't get on a high horse on this issue. >> >> David >> >> >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:36 AM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> ... >>> Do you mean by forming non doctor death panels to decide who >>> lives and >> who dies, to reduce the costs of health care? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:44:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:44:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2E?= In-Reply-To: Kristy Gravlin 's message of Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:07:06 -0500 Message-ID: <260-4C87A152-134@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> You will not any comments either way on this one, rules or not, for I'm damn lucky to be in as good as shape as I am now. If I was not... Mr Bliss and others would not get their firewood. Now I have a mechanical wood splitter. However, the only thing now is that it just takes me all day to do what I used could do all day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/6a715776/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 07:55:39 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2E?= In-Reply-To: "Steve" 's message of Wed, 8 Sep 2010 14:28:09 +0000 Message-ID: <260-4C87A3EB-138@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Steven wrote...How will that be with government insurance? ......... Steven ... stop and think a bit.... no matter where the insurance comes from ... what the hell would you do with out any kind of insurance in your time of need? In some cases it is a matter of life and death, so you have your choice; it is life or death ... I sure as hell hope you make the right decision. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/2a076bbf/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 8 08:53:10 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 08:53:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] rain up date Message-ID: <261-4C87B166-100@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> http://tinyurl.com/RainUpDate As I promissed here is the rain amouts for thi season. My brother "Spike" sent a fancy weather station like Mr Ed's, however I have not set it up, and don't know if I will or not.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100908/8be49d2c/attachment.html From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Sep 8 09:04:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:04:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2E?= In-Reply-To: <699106204-1283956092-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-858861448-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <699106204-1283956092-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-858861448-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <012901cb4f6f$7d86c6e0$789454a0$@com> Steve, > From: Steve > > How will that be with government insurance? To find the answer to that one needs only look as far as Medicare/Medicaid and the Oregon Health Plan. However, what I think you're implying is that the healthcare legislation will create government insurance. That part didn't make it into the bill so I'm not sure why it matters how it'd be different with government insurance. Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Sep 8 09:04:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:04:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <1407506792-1283952895-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-907149853-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <331182521.896721.1283832219847.JavaMail.root@sz0024a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><29AAE646-14EF-47A0-A7A1-A9B5D03CA7F8@teleport.com><4C8670CA.000019.03336@DON-B2514E06367><004501cb4eb6$8a362610$9ea27230$@com><4C86862F.000034.03336@DON-B2514E06367><1C1A28C9-5C03-4ED3-8A26-6B66517EF3AE@verizon.net> <1407506792-1283952895-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-907149853-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <012d01cb4f6f$7fcbd4e0$7f637ea0$@com> Steve, > From: Steve > > I don't think it will change with the government > system. We have had laws and courts to oversee > private insurance. Who will be th watchdog over > government? I read the bill. It is set up under > the executive branch. No congressional oversight. Interesting, that's not the way I read it. It's also not the way others that are trying to explain it in simple terms to folks have read it either. Care to elaborate on what specifically in the bill gives you that idea (page numbers, quoted portions of the bill, etc.)? Thanks, Jeff From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Sep 8 09:04:15 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:04:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <5403EA0E-2E61-49D9-A99D-9A7A1B81A270@verizon.net> References: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <5403EA0E-2E61-49D9-A99D-9A7A1B81A270@verizon.net> Message-ID: <013001cb4f6f$81b41ce0$851c56a0$@com> David, > From: David Morelli > > There was a short piece on TV tonight. Chris Dudley > wants to build up a "rainy day" fund. Not a bad idea. > > I wonder if he intends to repeal the "kicker" completely? >From Dudley's own site: "State government should have a savings account to protect funding for essential services, like schools, in tough economic times. However, Chris doesn't believe the only way for state government to create a "rainy day" savings account is to raise taxes or keep taxpayers' income tax "kicker" refunds. As Governor, Chris will create the Oregon Future Fund, making saving for a rainy day the first - not last - priority of state government. He will set aside 3% of forecast revenue into a fund only accessible for schools and essential services in times of economic downturn; a 2/3 vote of the legislature will be required to use the funds." http://www.chrisdudley.com/issues.html#rainyday The wording suggests to the layperson that he won't touch the kicker, but the way I read it it says keeping the kicker isn't the only way to raise the money, but one of several. The difficulty with the Dudley campaign, as I see it, is they refuse to provide specific answers to anything. They speak in all sorts of political platitudes, but when pressed for specific answers to specific issues they fall flat. Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Wed Sep 8 09:12:33 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:12:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] =?iso-8859-1?q?And_my_2_=A2_on_insurance_rules=2E=2E?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=2E?= In-Reply-To: <012901cb4f6f$7d86c6e0$789454a0$@com> References: <699106204-1283956092-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-858861448-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <012901cb4f6f$7d86c6e0$789454a0$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E4259D22@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thanks for this info, Jeff. It strikes me that the approach quoted here is yet another band-aid solution to a near-fatal problem...the Oregon tax base and its volatility in hard times. Years ago, I wrote to the Iowa State Dept. of Education...as I had heard that they remained stable in their state expenditures/revenue stream in tough time--even though their demographics were very similar to ours. We go in the tank with the tough times and they don't. They replied with a great explanation of how their system rides out the tough times in fine shape. Basic reason: differences in the tax base...read--they have a state sales tax. But even mentioning that in Oregon is anathema and political hari-kiri. Go figure. We prefer to stay on the roller coaster and apply band-aids...but the track is busted. Send more band-aids. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:04 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] And my 2 ? on insurance rules... Steve, > From: Steve > > How will that be with government insurance? To find the answer to that one needs only look as far as Medicare/Medicaid and the Oregon Health Plan. However, what I think you're implying is that the healthcare legislation will create government insurance. That part didn't make it into the bill so I'm not sure why it matters how it'd be different with government insurance. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Sep 8 20:51:00 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:51:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: I may get older, but I refuse to become more mature. David On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 is still young at heart most of the time. From jo.david at verizon.net Wed Sep 8 21:24:05 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 21:24:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just curios In-Reply-To: <013001cb4f6f$81b41ce0$851c56a0$@com> References: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <5403EA0E-2E61-49D9-A99D-9A7A1B81A270@verizon.net> <013001cb4f6f$81b41ce0$851c56a0$@com> Message-ID: <68478954-81A1-4034-BD40-477645434628@verizon.net> Will he wait until we are out of the current economic downturn to start putting money into the account? Or will he put 3% in the next biennium and have the legislature pull it out immediately for the current budget shortfall. It is a rational idea, but the timing for initiation is a bit rocky. David On Sep 8, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > David, > ... As Governor, Chris will create the Oregon Future Fund, making saving for a rainy day the first - not last - priority of state government. He will set aside 3% of forecast revenue into a fund only accessible for schools and essential services in times of economic downturn; a 2/3 vote of the legislature will be required to use the funds." > ... > Jeff From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 21:47:31 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 21:47:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] just curios References: <15886-4C841776-2950@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> <5403EA0E-2E61-49D9-A99D-9A7A1B81A270@verizon.net> <013001cb4f6f$81b41ce0$851c56a0$@com> <68478954-81A1-4034-BD40-477645434628@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C8866D0.000046.03892@DON-B2514E06367> Anything we can do in Oregon for Oregonians will be welcomed. From outside, today, from the right and left, the democrats all of a sudden are not overtly proud of Obamacare. Are they perhaps prepping to run again, hoping that citizens forget? Even Hillery changed her tune today. Looks like a 2012 run at president to me. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 9/8/2010 9:25:19 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] just curios Will he wait until we are out of the current economic downturn to start putting money into the account? Or will he put 3% in the next biennium and have the legislature pull it out immediately for the current budget shortfall. It is a rational idea, but the timing for initiation is a bit rocky. David On Sep 8, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > David, > ... As Governor, Chris will create the Oregon Future Fund, making saving for a rainy day the first - not last - priority of state government. He will set aside 3% of forecast revenue into a fund only accessible for schools and essential services in times of economic downturn; a 2/3 vote of the legislature will be required to use the funds." > ... > Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100908/61d26783/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 8 23:38:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 23:38:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: References: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <96419853-81BB-4A5E-BBF6-1985798B3A0C@teleport.com> Ah, jeeze, you two are just a couple of pups. I'm just a young man imprisoned in an old body. WW On Sep 8, 2010, at 8:51 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I may get older, but I refuse to become more mature. > > David > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 >> is still young at heart most of the time. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From tosca at prodigy.net Thu Sep 9 08:53:07 2010 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie B. Combs) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] FAX SERVICE Message-ID: <386959.73444.qm@web81405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all, Someone was asking about fax service in FG.? Yesterday's News Times has an ad for "Forest Grove Business Solutions" at 2013 Pacific.? Says it has fax service and is "now open".? I did not phone to verify, however.? Hope this helps. Bonnie From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Sep 9 09:21:19 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:21:19 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <25256-4C89097F-2416@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/GModie.html By the bye Walt.... David and I may be young pups as you called us, but are you still begging and whining for treats like us, or are you just ok with just getting scratched behind your ears, and your tummy rubbed? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100909/da8cf412/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 09:54:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:54:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. References: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <96419853-81BB-4A5E-BBF6-1985798B3A0C@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C89113D.00001C.00176@DON-B2514E06367> I may still live up to my nickname, olfart, in the army. 76 and getting younger. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 9/8/2010 11:38:55 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] try this .. Ah, jeeze, you two are just a couple of pups. I'm just a young man imprisoned in an old body. WW On Sep 8, 2010, at 8:51 PM, David Morelli wrote: > I may get older, but I refuse to become more mature. > > David > > On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 >> is still young at heart most of the time. > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100909/2ae271ca/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Thu Sep 9 10:01:14 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:01:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <25256-4C89097F-2416@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <25256-4C89097F-2416@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Don't I wish! Although there is snow on the roof, etc., and you know the rest of the old saw. On Sep 9, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :- > http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/GModie.html > > By the bye Walt.... > David and I may be young pups as you called us, but are you still > begging and whining for treats like us, or are you just ok with just > getting scratched behind your ears, and your tummy rubbed? > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > GreenRose > > > An OleHoss always has his eyes on you! > > > > rain up date > Roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Sep 9 10:04:10 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:04:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] try this .. In-Reply-To: <4C89113D.00001C.00176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <25696-4C873285-49@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <96419853-81BB-4A5E-BBF6-1985798B3A0C@teleport.com> <4C89113D.00001C.00176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <572FDEBD-D632-4F49-88C1-ADDD866838F8@teleport.com> Well then, anything from now on is pure gravy. Work, learn, enjoy! On Sep 9, 2010, at 9:54 AM, donkelly wrote: > I may still live up to my nickname, olfart, in the army. 76 and > getting > younger. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/8/2010 11:38:55 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] try this .. > > Ah, jeeze, you two are just a couple of pups. I'm just a young man > imprisoned in an old body. > WW > On Sep 8, 2010, at 8:51 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> I may get older, but I refuse to become more mature. >> >> David >> >> On Sep 7, 2010, at 11:51 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >>> David... are you complaining or bragging.... as for an OleHoss 65 >>> is still young at heart most of the time. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Sep 9 10:50:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:50:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Thu, 9 Sep 2010 10:01:14 -0700 Message-ID: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Walt wrote... Don't I wish! Although there is snow on the roof, etc., and you know the rest of the ======== Walt... No matter what age we are ... we can all use help brushing the snow of the roof and anywhere else now and then. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100909/28ae6ccf/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 11:20:22 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 11:20:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> As long as there is still fire in the boiler. My best army friend was a sniper. He is 80 now and still pushing the envelope. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/9/2010 10:50:49 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You An OleHoss always has his eyes on you! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100909/501aaf1d/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Thu Sep 9 11:35:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 11:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > As long as there is still fire in the boiler. > > My best army friend was a sniper. He is 80 now and still pushing the > envelope. Excellent. A few years ago, I read the biography of the most famous sniper from the Vietnam War. made fascinating reading, although it had to be fictionalized in spots. He had recently died of Lou Gehrig's disease or some such neurological disorder. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alan Domenghini > Date: 9/9/2010 10:50:49 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You > > > > An OleHoss always has his eyes on you! > > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Sep 9 13:58:26 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:58:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4BC87387-4D1D-45FB-A7E6-B82BFF963873@verizon.net> Snipers have a role in military action, especially in a static war of attrition. They are beneficial in attacking high value targets at a distance or providing selective covering fire against recon patrols. Beyond that, they don't provide much support for a heavy assault or against one. The soldier who creates a defensible position and stands their ground will provide a better protection against a heavy assault. Against them, the grunt who makes the charge will win the day or take the consequences. The American involvement in the Vietnam War runs from the French loss at Dien Bien Phu to the fall of Saigon. The former was resolved by artillery, and the latter was resolved by tanks. David On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> As long as there is still fire in the boiler. >> >> My best army friend was a sniper. He is 80 now and still pushing the envelope. > > Excellent. A few years ago, I read the biography of the most famous sniper from the Vietnam War. made fascinating reading, although it had to be fictionalized in spots. He had recently died of Lou Gehrig's disease or some such neurological disorder. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 14:13:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:13:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> <4BC87387-4D1D-45FB-A7E6-B82BFF963873@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C894E0A.00005F.00176@DON-B2514E06367> Both Chinese made. Don -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 9/9/2010 1:59:47 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Snipers have a role in military action, especially in a static war of attrition. They are beneficial in attacking high value targets at a distance or providing selective covering fire against recon patrols. Beyond that, they don't provide much support for a heavy assault or against one. The soldier who creates a defensible position and stands their ground will provide a better protection against a heavy assault. Against them, the grunt who makes the charge will win the day or take the consequences. The American involvement in the Vietnam War runs from the French loss at Dien Bien Phu to the fall of Saigon. The former was resolved by artillery, and the latter was resolved by tanks. David On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> As long as there is still fire in the boiler. >> >> My best army friend was a sniper. He is 80 now and still pushing the envelope. > > Excellent. A few years ago, I read the biography of the most famous sniper from the Vietnam War. made fascinating reading, although it had to be fictionalized in spots. He had recently died of Lou Gehrig's disease or some such neurological disorder. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100909/84233ae0/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 14:17:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 14:17:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> <4BC87387-4D1D-45FB-A7E6-B82BFF963873@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C894EDB.000064.00176@DON-B2514E06367> I hear they are opening up the old silk road. I wonder how that will work out. Latest from government, burning the American flag, YES; burning the Koran, NO. Personal Opinion. No American flag, bible or Koran should be burned purely as an exercise of free speech. -------Original Message------- From: David Morelli Date: 9/9/2010 1:59:47 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Snipers have a role in military action, especially in a static war of attrition. They are beneficial in attacking high value targets at a distance or providing selective covering fire against recon patrols. Beyond that, they don't provide much support for a heavy assault or against one. The soldier who creates a defensible position and stands their ground will provide a better protection against a heavy assault. Against them, the grunt who makes the charge will win the day or take the consequences. The American involvement in the Vietnam War runs from the French loss at Dien Bien Phu to the fall of Saigon. The former was resolved by artillery, and the latter was resolved by tanks. David On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2010, at 11:20 AM, donkelly wrote: > >> As long as there is still fire in the boiler. >> >> My best army friend was a sniper. He is 80 now and still pushing the envelope. > > Excellent. A few years ago, I read the biography of the most famous sniper from the Vietnam War. made fascinating reading, although it had to be fictionalized in spots. He had recently died of Lou Gehrig's disease or some such neurological disorder. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100909/0b9189ae/attachment.gif From jo.david at verizon.net Thu Sep 9 20:48:42 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:48:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <4C894EDB.000064.00176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> <4BC87387-4D1D-45FB-A7E6-B82BFF963873@verizon.net> <4C894EDB.000064.00176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <61F70DD3-8452-4D75-82A3-8EC4C23E0E74@verizon.net> On Sep 9, 2010, at 2:17 PM, donkelly wrote: > Latest from government, burning the American flag, YES; burning the Koran, NO. That would be a misquote. They both are "Yes". And for the same reasons. > > Personal Opinion. No American flag, bible or Koran should be burned purely as an exercise of free speech. I agree. David From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 10 00:04:46 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:04:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <61F70DD3-8452-4D75-82A3-8EC4C23E0E74@verizon.net> References: <25256-4C891E6A-2563@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> <4C892562.000026.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <9EB07757-D513-4F3C-8FD6-13BE9DADADAF@teleport.com> <4BC87387-4D1D-45FB-A7E6-B82BFF963873@verizon.net> <4C894EDB.000064.00176@DON-B2514E06367> <61F70DD3-8452-4D75-82A3-8EC4C23E0E74@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9FF0F7B8-E2B5-423F-91CC-457C8750DDA0@teleport.com> Too many of humanity confuse symbols with reality. On Sep 9, 2010, at 8:48 PM, David Morelli wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2010, at 2:17 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> Latest from government, burning the American flag, YES; burning >> the Koran, NO. > > That would be a misquote. They both are "Yes". And for the same > reasons. >> >> Personal Opinion. No American flag, bible or Koran should be >> burned purely as an exercise of free speech. > > I agree. > > David > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Sep 10 08:10:16 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:10:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <21072-4C8A4A58-456@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/GModie.html This one its right in with my week-end plans ... That's right, monkey business -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100910/3d895de3/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 11 08:41:57 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 08:41:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley Message-ID: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about Dudley. It makes him sound a bit shifty. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100911/2606a4ff/attachment.html From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 08:59:23 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Mensch Festival of Arts Fri. 9/17/20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <137762.57797.qm@web55604.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Pacific University's third annual MENSCH Festival of Music and Art set for Friday, Sept. 17 (FOREST GROVE) -- The public is invited to Pacific University's third annual MENSCH Festival of Music and Art on Friday, Sept. 17 from 5 to 10 p.m. on the East Lawn of the Forest Grove campus (2043 College Way). Music performances will include Pacific's Percussion Ensemble, reggae by Natural Incense and indie atmospheric rock by Ill Lucid Onset. Presented by the University's Center for Gender Equity and the student-led ACE Board, MENSCH provides a platform for the University and local communities to display their artwork and mingle. This year's theme is 'Equality Now,' intended to promote civic awareness for gender equality. Mensch is a German word that describes a person who is fundamentally decent, upright, caring and globally aware. The festival is a positive, artistic expression of personal and communal responsibility and commitment to the life of the planet. Individuals, or groups wishing to display artwork is asked to contact Chloe Kessinger at kess4310 at pacificu.edu. # # Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 09:03:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:03:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C8BA865.000003.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Haven't seen the article Alan, but we know from experience that there is a difference between pure news and editorial. News is supposed to be objective, but an editorial can be slanted in any attitude to fit the politics of the writer. I'll try to find a paper today. We shall see what we shall see. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/11/2010 8:42:41 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) rain up date Roses _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100911/751e2c46/attachment.gif From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 11 09:43:41 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 09:43:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Tax loopholes for the rich. A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of society. It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. Katie On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about Dudley. > It makes him sound a bit shifty. > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > rain up date > Roses > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 10:12:02 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:12:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Message-ID: Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per year? That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares with $11 million! Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Tax loopholes for the rich. > A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of society. > It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > > any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about Dudley. > > It makes him sound a bit shifty. > > > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > rain up date > > Roses > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 11 10:34:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:34:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Food Stamps In-Reply-To: Debra Bratland 's message of Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:12:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1084-4C8BBDA9-908@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I am disabled, but I do not qualify for them, so explain that. I've only 1/3 ownership here, and it's in Spikes name in the tax rolls. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100911/97736e39/attachment.html From kathyayala at msn.com Sat Sep 11 10:53:06 2010 From: kathyayala at msn.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question In-Reply-To: References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. Does anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for free? Thanks and have a good day Kathy From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 11:08:04 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:08:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Question References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Got a bare plumb tree here. Nothing for the birds and squerrels. Bummer Don -------Original Message------- From: Kathy Date: 9/11/2010 10:53:19 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question Hi Everyone, I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. Does anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for free? Thanks and have a good day Kathy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100911/d78c6a86/attachment.gif From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 11 11:12:39 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:12:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Message-ID: <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is very close to the food stamp level. If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) Katie On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > year? > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > with $11 > million! > > Deb Bratland > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > wrote: > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of >> society. >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >> >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about >>> Dudley. >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. >>> >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) >>> rain up date >>> Roses >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kathyayala at msn.com Sat Sep 11 11:22:15 2010 From: kathyayala at msn.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question In-Reply-To: <4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Guess it is not just us then that has no fruit. Thanks for the response Kathy -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of donkelly Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:08 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question Got a bare plumb tree here. Nothing for the birds and squerrels. Bummer Don -------Original Message------- From: Kathy Date: 9/11/2010 10:53:19 AM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question Hi Everyone, I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. Does anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for free? Thanks and have a good day Kathy _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:36:25 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:36:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 11:38:37 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:38:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question In-Reply-To: References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: A friend of mine has no plums this year, either. Our walnut tree is the same way - one or two years there is a bumper crop, and then it seems to take a year off. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Kathy wrote: > Guess it is not just us then that has no fruit. Thanks for the response > > Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:08 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > Got a bare plumb tree here. Nothing for the birds and squerrels. > > > > Bummer > > > > Don > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Kathy > > Date: 9/11/2010 10:53:19 AM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. > Does > anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for > free? > > > > Thanks and have a good day > > > > Kathy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From whatsupy2k at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 11:57:21 2010 From: whatsupy2k at yahoo.com (Vickie Madeoneup) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley In-Reply-To: References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> Message-ID: <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Speaking of "Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year" I have always thought it made sense that a very small portion of ticket sales be dedicated to schools. For example, 50 cents of every professional football game ticket go towards sports in schools, 50 cents of each ticket sold to a rock concert pay for music in schools, etc. This is where future actors, sports, music, whichever professionals will come from and the public in general does not seen opposed to paying for entertainment. Just my 50 cents worth. Vickie ________________________________ From: Debra Bratland To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:36:25 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ejbaeza at mac.com Sat Sep 11 12:24:47 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:24:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley In-Reply-To: <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <387EDC84-6A06-48B7-A859-525E1062E2D1@mac.com> Great idea Vickie! E. J. Baeza Underpaid musician that does benefits for music in our schools On Sep 11, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Vickie Madeoneup wrote: > Speaking of "Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a > year" I have > always thought it made sense that a very small portion of ticket > sales be > dedicated to schools. For example, > 50 cents of every professional football game ticket go towards > sports in > schools, 50 cents of each ticket sold to a rock concert pay for > music in schools, etc. This is where future actors, sports, music, > whichever > professionals will come from and the public in general does not seen > opposed to paying for entertainment. > > Just my 50 cents worth. > > Vickie > > > ________________________________ > From: Debra Bratland > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:36:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley > > Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a > tough time > at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other > districts. > > And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports > stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and > teachers are > paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society > overall? It does seem kind of backwards. > > Deb Bratland > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt > wrote: > >> Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is >> very close to the food stamp level. >> If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep >> their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it >> is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on >> food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is >> out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories >> usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be >> just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in >> too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: >> >>> Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per >>> year? >>> That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares >>> with $11 >>> million! >>> >>> Deb Bratland >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Tax loopholes for the rich. >>>> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them >>>> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher >>>> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of >>>> society. >>>> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so >>>> galling. >>>> >>>> Katie >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: >>>> >>>>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about >>>>> Dudley. >>>>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. >>>>> >>>>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) >>>>> rain up date >>>>> Roses >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From hannah at teleport.com Sat Sep 11 12:16:02 2010 From: hannah at teleport.com (Kristy Gravlin) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:16:02 -0500 Subject: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley In-Reply-To: <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/10 1:57 PM, "Vickie Madeoneup" wrote: The only thing amiss with the plan (from my view) is that the basketball and football programs would get the vast majority of the money. How about if it went to all the "educational" extra programs so that those sports and other helpful-to-life skills like art and music get a fair share of the whole pot. Artists, Musicians, and maybe other groups deserve as much funding as sports .. at least I think so. Kristy > Speaking of "Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year" I have > always thought it made sense that a very small portion of ticket sales be > dedicated to schools. For example, 50 cents of every professional football > game ticket go towards sports in schools, 50 cents of each ticket sold to a > rock concert pay for music in schools, etc. This is where future actors, > sports, music, whichever professionals will come from and the public in > general does not seen opposed to paying for entertainment. Just my 50 cents > worth. Vickie ________________________________ From steelem at pacificu.edu Sat Sep 11 12:17:17 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:17:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Good points here...capitalism at its best, complete with a wacky values system. It takes hundreds of teachers hundreds of years to use their base salaries to equal Alex Rodriguez's $256m baseball contract...but who is making the more valuable contribution to the social good? Garbage workers are crucial to public health...but are not compensated commensurate with their true value in maintaining the public's health. CEOs now are compensated upwards of 400x over the pay of those they employ...30 years ago, that figure was about 15x. Go figure. What a great "system"--we should all bow down and worship Bush economics and tax cuts for millionaires. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: September 11, 2010 11:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 12:58:43 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:58:43 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4C8BDF6F.000025.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Worship the free market system too? Bush didn't have anything to do with that. //////////////// Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 9/11/2010 12:17:31 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Good points here...capitalism at its best, complete with a wacky values system. It takes hundreds of teachers hundreds of years to use their base salaries to equal Alex Rodriguez's $256m baseball contract...but who is making the more valuable contribution to the social good? Garbage workers are crucial to public health...but are not compensated commensurate with their true value in maintaining the public's health. CEOs now are compensated upwards of 400x over the pay of those they employ...30 years ago that figure was about 15x. Go figure. What a great "system"--we should all bow down and worship Bush economics and tax cuts for millionaires. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: September 11, 2010 11:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100911/4127d6ae/attachment.gif From nospam03 at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 12:59:24 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:59:24 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley In-Reply-To: <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com><05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com><177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1405431910-1284235167-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158565851-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> That is called a tax. Sports stars pay taxes. -----Original Message----- From: Vickie Madeoneup Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 11:57:21 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley Speaking of "Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year" I have always thought it made sense that a very small portion of ticket sales be dedicated to schools. For example, 50 cents of every professional football game ticket go towards sports in schools, 50 cents of each ticket sold to a rock concert pay for music in schools, etc. This is where future actors, sports, music, whichever professionals will come from and the public in general does not seen opposed to paying for entertainment. Just my 50 cents worth. Vickie ________________________________ From: Debra Bratland To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:36:25 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 13:02:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:02:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <05507931-B7E8-4DDC-A275-BA1FCD8CF480@frontier.com> <177933.60650.qm@web112413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C8BE049.000028.01424@DON-B2514E06367> But a very good 50 cents Vickie. Don -------Original Message------- From: Vickie Madeoneup Date: 9/11/2010 11:57:30 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] priorities seem backwards, was Dudley Speaking of "Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year" I have always thought it made sense that a very small portion of ticket sales be dedicated to schools. For example, 50 cents of every professional football game ticket go towards sports in schools, 50 cents of each ticket sold to a rock concert pay for music in schools, etc. This is where future actors, sports, music, whichever professionals will come from and the public in general does not seen opposed to paying for entertainment. Just my 50 cents worth. Vickie ________________________________ From: Debra Bratland To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sat, September 11, 2010 11:36:25 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100911/c81af478/attachment.gif From nospam03 at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 13:03:52 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 20:03:52 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1796607982-1284235435-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1860586067-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. -----Original Message----- From: "Steele, Mike" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:17:17 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Good points here...capitalism at its best, complete with a wacky values system. It takes hundreds of teachers hundreds of years to use their base salaries to equal Alex Rodriguez's $256m baseball contract...but who is making the more valuable contribution to the social good? Garbage workers are crucial to public health...but are not compensated commensurate with their true value in maintaining the public's health. CEOs now are compensated upwards of 400x over the pay of those they employ...30 years ago, that figure was about 15x. Go figure. What a great "system"--we should all bow down and worship Bush economics and tax cuts for millionaires. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: September 11, 2010 11:36 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society overall? It does seem kind of backwards. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > very close to the food stamp level. > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > Katie > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > year? > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > with $11 > > million! > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote: > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > >> society. > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > >> > >> Katie > >> > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > >>> Dudley. > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > >>> > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > >>> rain up date > >>> Roses > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 13:08:03 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:08:03 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Question References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <4C8BE19E.00002E.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Thinking back, not many cherrys this year either, and very small. Raccoons didn't even come to check them out. Did they know something that we don't know? Don -------Original Message------- From: Debra Bratland Date: 9/11/2010 11:38:52 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question A friend of mine has no plums this year, either. Our walnut tree is the same way - one or two years there is a bumper crop, and then it seems to take a year off. Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Kathy wrote: > Guess it is not just us then that has no fruit. Thanks for the response > > Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:08 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > Got a bare plumb tree here. Nothing for the birds and squerrels. > > > > Bummer > > > > Don > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Kathy > > Date: 9/11/2010 10:53:19 AM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. > Does > anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for > free? > > > > Thanks and have a good day > > > > Kathy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100911/375578de/attachment.gif From debbratland at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 13:51:14 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:51:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <1796607982-1284235435-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1860586067-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1796607982-1284235435-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1860586067-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Steve said: Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. Amen to that!! I've never understood why taxpayers build stadiums. Can anyone explain how that started or why it continues? Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Steve wrote: > Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:17:17 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley > > Good points here...capitalism at its best, complete with a wacky values > system. It takes hundreds of teachers hundreds of years to use their base > salaries to equal Alex Rodriguez's $256m baseball contract...but who is > making the more valuable contribution to the social good? Garbage workers > are crucial to public health...but are not compensated commensurate with > their true value in maintaining the public's health. CEOs now are > compensated upwards of 400x over the pay of those they employ...30 years > ago, that figure was about 15x. > > Go figure. What a great "system"--we should all bow down and worship Bush > economics and tax cuts for millionaires. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Bratland > Sent: September 11, 2010 11:36 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley > > > Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time > at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. > > And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports > stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are > paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society > overall? It does seem kind of backwards. > > Deb Bratland > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt >wrote: > > > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > > very close to the food stamp level. > > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > > > Katie > > > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > > year? > > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > > with $11 > > > million! > > > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > > >> society. > > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > > >> > > >> Katie > > >> > > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > >> > > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > > >>> Dudley. > > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > > >>> > > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > >>> rain up date > > >>> Roses > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> GroveNet mailing list > > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 13:55:50 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 13:55:50 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Bare trees Message-ID: <4C8BECD0.000039.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Back in the woods I found a few plums growing in deep shade. They taste OK too, and are normal size, but there are not many, and all growing on the same limb. Other limbs are bare. Very curious indeed. For the politicoes: For those of you who are listening to the liberals fallacy that everything is "Bush's Fault," think about this: January 3rd, 2007 was the day the Democrats took over the Senate and the Congress: At the time: The DOW Jones closed at 12,621.77 The GDP for the previous quarter was 3.5% The Unemployment rate was 4.6% George Bush's Economic policies SET A RECORD of 52 STRAIGHT MONTHS of JOB CREATION! January 3rd, 2007 was the day that Barney Frank took over the House Financial Services Committee and Chris Dodd took over the Senate Banking Committee. The economic meltdown that happened 15 months later was in what part of the economy? BANKING AND FINANCIAL SERVICES! THANK YOU DEMOCRATS for taking us from 13,000 DOW, 3.5 GDP and 4.6% Unemployment to this CRISIS by (among MANY other things) dumping 5-6 TRILLION Dollars of toxic loans on the economy from YOUR Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac FIASCOS! And who took the THIRD highest pay-off from Fannie Mae AND Freddie Mac? OBAMA And who fought against reform of Fannie and Freddie? OBAMA & the Democratic Congress So when someone tries to blame Bush REMEMBER JANUARY 3rd, 2007 THE DAY THE DEMOCRATS TOOK OVER! Bush may have been in the car but the Democrats were in charge of the gas pedal and steering wheel they were driving. Set the record straight on Bush! http://brucehough.blogspot.com/2009/04/setting-record-straight-on-george-w html "It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so." - Ronald Reagan From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 11 14:45:18 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:45:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <1796607982-1284235435-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1860586067-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA11@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> <1796607982-1284235435-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1860586067-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8585FA34-6E59-4501-B8D8-F14861C868AA@frontier.com> That would be a good experiment to try. And it looks like the experiment has started with the Portland Beavers. On Sep 11, 2010, at 1:03 PM, Steve wrote: > Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. From steelem at pacificu.edu Sat Sep 11 15:06:47 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:06:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA13@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Capitalism: greed is good, as Michael Douglas said in "Wall Street." Stadiums financed with public funds are one of the biggest rip offs on record. Read: welfare for the rich. See the pertinent chapters in Jay Coakley's Sports in Society. Voters who support such schemes are being bamboozled by propaganda. Only one stadium is fully supported and owned by the citizens, and advances community needs: Lambeau Field in Green Bay. The NFL will not permit another such team/town arrangement. It is no accident that this emerged in a state with a strong progressivist tradition. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sent: September 11, 2010 1:51 PM To: nospam03 at comcast.net ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley Steve said: Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. Amen to that!! I've never understood why taxpayers build stadiums. Can anyone explain how that started or why it continues? Deb Bratland On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Steve wrote: > Maybe they shouldn't use our tax dollars to build stadiums. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steele, Mike" > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 12:17:17 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley > > Good points here...capitalism at its best, complete with a wacky values > system. It takes hundreds of teachers hundreds of years to use their base > salaries to equal Alex Rodriguez's $256m baseball contract...but who is > making the more valuable contribution to the social good? Garbage workers > are crucial to public health...but are not compensated commensurate with > their true value in maintaining the public's health. CEOs now are > compensated upwards of 400x over the pay of those they employ...30 years > ago, that figure was about 15x. > > Go figure. What a great "system"--we should all bow down and worship Bush > economics and tax cuts for millionaires. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Bratland > Sent: September 11, 2010 11:36 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Dudley > > > Thanks for the insight, Katie. Yes, a family of 4 would have a tough time > at $39K. And FGSD is known for paying more than a lot of other districts. > > And anyway, the question is: where are our values? Movie and sports > stars make millions of dollars a year, while scientists and teachers are > paid a modest middle income. Yet who contributes more to our society > overall? It does seem kind of backwards. > > Deb Bratland > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Katie Allnutt >wrote: > > > Not all districts pay that much and if you are a family of four it is > > very close to the food stamp level. > > If you look at the trends over many years, lots of states try to keep > > their first year salaries just over the food stamp level because it > > is embarrassing when the newspapers run stories about teachers on > > food stamps. When the federal guidelines change on a schedule that is > > out of sync with school budget negotiations that is when the stories > > usually hit and then the next year the salaries are negotiated to be > > just a pinch higher. (Inflation and other things get calculated in > > too but it is an interesting see saw to watch over the years.) > > > > Katie > > > > On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Debra Bratland wrote: > > > > > Can you qualify for food stamps if you make a salary of $39,076 per > > > year? > > > That's the FGSD starting teacher salary. Not that $39,076 compares > > > with $11 > > > million! > > > > > > Deb Bratland > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Katie Allnutt > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Tax loopholes for the rich. > > >> A time honored tradition for those who say that society owes them > > >> every penny of the $11 million they make and a first year teacher > > >> qualifying for food stamps needs to sacrifice for the good of > > >> society. > > >> It's the attitude that they are beyond the rules that is so galling. > > >> > > >> Katie > > >> > > >> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > > >> > > >>> any thoughts on the front page article in the Oregonian about > > >>> Dudley. > > >>> It makes him sound a bit shifty. > > >>> > > >>> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > >>> rain up date > > >>> Roses > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> GroveNet mailing list > > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> GroveNet mailing list > > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From embien at starband.net Sat Sep 11 15:15:51 2010 From: embien at starband.net (Mike Northam) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:15:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net><07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com><4C8BC576.000018.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <7C2773DB0D05479CA749C48653B3C66C@saralie3> We live in the hills outside Banks and both of our plum trees were bare. I think it bloomed too early for our bees. Saralie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathy" To: "'donkelly'" ; "'Forest Grove local interests list'" Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > Guess it is not just us then that has no fruit. Thanks for the response > > Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of donkelly > Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 11:08 AM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > Got a bare plumb tree here. Nothing for the birds and squerrels. > > > > Bummer > > > > Don > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Kathy > > Date: 9/11/2010 10:53:19 AM > > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this year. > Does > anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild plums around here for > free? > > > > Thanks and have a good day > > > > Kathy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Sep 11 16:55:30 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:55:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley In-Reply-To: <4C8BA865.000003.01424@DON-B2514E06367> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <4C8BA865.000003.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Seems to me that ANY person who gets millions suddenly becomes convinced that taxes are an unbearable burden, and takes steps to avoid them. In this, Dudley is not at all exceptional. I'd be more interested in knowing whether he actually has any viable ideas for lifting Oregon out of the recession, without simply repeating the old mantra of "cut services for the many, and taxes for the rich." On Sep 11, 2010, at 9:03 AM, donkelly wrote: > Haven't seen the article Alan, but we know from experience that > there is a > difference between pure news and editorial. > > News is supposed to be objective, but an editorial can be slanted > in any > attitude to fit the politics of the writer. > > I'll try to find a paper today. We shall see what we shall see. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Alan Domenghini > Date: 9/11/2010 8:42:41 AM > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: [Grovenet] Dudley > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > rain up date > Roses > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Sat Sep 11 17:35:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:35:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question In-Reply-To: References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> Message-ID: <721A799C-7B82-4349-9B0D-81DFC321E671@teleport.com> Kathy: Most plum trees did badly this year. Also most apple trees, most pear trees, most fig trees, etc. It's all because of the strange late spring. Not one plum on my trees, and they usually bear heavily. I got one (1) apple off my espaliered trees. The figs started off great, looked like a bumper crop, and then that three days of cold rain we got last month ruined them. Walt On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kathy wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this > year. Does anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild > plums around here for free? > > Thanks and have a good day > > Kathy > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From kathyayala at msn.com Sat Sep 11 18:34:40 2010 From: kathyayala at msn.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:34:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Question In-Reply-To: <721A799C-7B82-4349-9B0D-81DFC321E671@teleport.com> References: <13980-4C8BA345-2721@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <07CA4E33-A0AE-4683-A7C7-F25E3C518A07@frontier.com> <721A799C-7B82-4349-9B0D-81DFC321E671@teleport.com> Message-ID: Thanks again to everyone for all the great feedback. I think I got like 3 apples. So I guess we are all in this together this year and hope for a better crop next year. Guess we will have to wait until next year to have plum jam and homemade applesauce. -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:35 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Question Kathy: Most plum trees did badly this year. Also most apple trees, most pear trees, most fig trees, etc. It's all because of the strange late spring. Not one plum on my trees, and they usually bear heavily. I got one (1) apple off my espaliered trees. The figs started off great, looked like a bumper crop, and then that three days of cold rain we got last month ruined them. Walt On Sep 11, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Kathy wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I have a question, our plum tree did not get any fruit on it this > year. Does anyone out there know of places you can go pick wild > plums around here for free? > > Thanks and have a good day > > Kathy > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nuzriter at aol.com Sun Sep 12 20:16:23 2010 From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 23:16:23 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] short and sweet Message-ID: <8CD21092DAB9287-165C-20355@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> Nice, succinct words from Mark Oberzil in today's Oregonian opinion page...as usual. Linda "to the point" Saari From allnutt at frontier.com Sun Sep 12 21:13:54 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:13:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] short and sweet In-Reply-To: <8CD21092DAB9287-165C-20355@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD21092DAB9287-165C-20355@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <01A5242B-4AEC-4DEC-827D-E491844D996D@frontier.com> It was nice to see a familiar name in the paper this morning and with a great contribution as well. Katie On Sep 12, 2010, at 8:16 PM, nuzriter at aol.com wrote: > Nice, succinct words from Mark Oberzil in today's Oregonian opinion > page...as usual. > > > Linda "to the point" Saari > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sun Sep 12 21:23:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:23:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] short and sweet References: <8CD21092DAB9287-165C-20355@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> <01A5242B-4AEC-4DEC-827D-E491844D996D@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C8DA73B.000017.00856@DON-B2514E06367> What did he say? Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 9/12/2010 9:14:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] short and sweet It was nice to see a familiar name in the paper this morning and with a great contribution as well. Katie On Sep 12, 2010, at 8:16 PM, nuzriter at aol.com wrote: > Nice, succinct words from Mark Oberzil in today's Oregonian opinion > page...as usual. > > > Linda "to the point" Saari > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100912/674c259c/attachment.gif From nuzriter at aol.com Sun Sep 12 21:25:52 2010 From: nuzriter at aol.com (nuzriter at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:25:52 -0400 Subject: [Grovenet] short and sweet In-Reply-To: <4C8DA73B.000017.00856@DON-B2514E06367> References: <8CD21092DAB9287-165C-20355@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com><01A5242B-4AEC-4DEC-827D-E491844D996D@frontier.com> <4C8DA73B.000017.00856@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <8CD2112E29F9EDF-165C-212DF@webmail-m008.sysops.aol.com> he said "you shouldn't burn a book you've never read" Linda Saari -----Original Message----- From: donkelly To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Sun, Sep 12, 2010 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [Grovenet] short and sweet What did he say? Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 9/12/2010 9:14:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] short and sweet It was nice to see a familiar name in the paper this morning and with a great contribution as well. Katie On Sep 12, 2010, at 8:16 PM, nuzriter at aol.com wrote: > Nice, succinct words from Mark Oberzil in today's Oregonian opinion > page...as usual. > > > Linda "to the point" Saari > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ roveNet mailing list roveNet at rdrop.com ttp://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redhead854 at msn.com Sun Sep 12 22:53:28 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:53:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty Message-ID: If anyone else wants to go, that would be great!! I really don't want to , but I will because this is something that wasn't voted on, wasn't anything, only announced at the last meeting by the superintendent. I they backed off the comment on facebook, and posted this Forest Grove School District Holly, we are still finalizing the details for graduation next year and will post as soon as they are confirmed. Your point about tickets is good, and we will look at ways to address that.Which my skeptic translator tells me is that this means that they are going to not talk about it until "whoops" its too late we have to have it at Liberty because every other place is booked, and we cant change the day,,,shucks. :P wish me luck. Holly From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 09:04:58 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:04:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a new signup procedure for public comment - it's not written on the website, and the policy hasn't been changed on the website, but they now want you to sign a half-sheet of paper with your name, etc. and the topic you are going to address. One person told me that it was *required* and that they wouldn't let you speak if you don't do it. That's ridiculous, because the policy specifically says you're not required to sign up. But we have more important things to address with them; anyway, the sheets are there on the table as you come in. See you there, Holly! Deb On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Holly Di wrote: > > > If anyone else wants to go, that would be great!! > > I really don't want to , but I will because this is something that wasn't > voted on, wasn't anything, only announced at the > last meeting by the superintendent. > > I they backed off the comment on facebook, and posted this > Forest Grove School District > Holly, > we are still finalizing the details for graduation next year and will > post as soon as they are confirmed. Your point about tickets is good, > and we will look at ways to address that.Which my skeptic translator tells > me is that this means that they are going to not talk about it until > "whoops" its too late we have to have it at Liberty because every other > place is booked, and we cant change the day,,,shucks. > > :P wish me luck. > > Holly > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From nospam03 at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 09:12:05 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:12:05 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there tocomplain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1930796589-1284394331-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-694935766-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Great tool. They will make you the last thing at the meeting. Hope you hold out that long. -----Original Message----- From: Debra Bratland Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:04:58 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty There's a new signup procedure for public comment - it's not written on the website, and the policy hasn't been changed on the website, but they now want you to sign a half-sheet of paper with your name, etc. and the topic you are going to address. One person told me that it was *required* and that they wouldn't let you speak if you don't do it. That's ridiculous, because the policy specifically says you're not required to sign up. But we have more important things to address with them; anyway, the sheets are there on the table as you come in. See you there, Holly! Deb On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Holly Di wrote: > > > If anyone else wants to go, that would be great!! > > I really don't want to , but I will because this is something that wasn't > voted on, wasn't anything, only announced at the > last meeting by the superintendent. > > I they backed off the comment on facebook, and posted this > Forest Grove School District > Holly, > we are still finalizing the details for graduation next year and will > post as soon as they are confirmed. Your point about tickets is good, > and we will look at ways to address that.Which my skeptic translator tells > me is that this means that they are going to not talk about it until > "whoops" its too late we have to have it at Liberty because every other > place is booked, and we cant change the day,,,shucks. > > :P wish me luck. > > Holly > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 12:13:46 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:13:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there tocomplain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: <1930796589-1284394331-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-694935766-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1930796589-1284394331-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-694935766-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Actually, they take unscheduled public comments near the begining of the meeting, thank goodness! On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:12 AM, Steve wrote: > Great tool. They will make you the last thing at the meeting. Hope you hold > out that long. > -----Original Message----- > From: Debra Bratland > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:04:58 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to > complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty > > There's a new signup procedure for public comment - it's not written on the > website, and the policy hasn't been changed on the website, but they now > want you to sign a half-sheet of paper with your name, etc. and the topic > you are going to address. One person told me that it was *required* and > that they wouldn't let you speak if you don't do it. That's ridiculous, > because the policy specifically says you're not required to sign up. But > we > have more important things to address with them; anyway, the sheets are > there on the table as you come in. > > See you there, Holly! > > Deb > > > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Holly Di wrote: > > > > > > > If anyone else wants to go, that would be great!! > > > > I really don't want to , but I will because this is something that wasn't > > voted on, wasn't anything, only announced at the > > last meeting by the superintendent. > > > > I they backed off the comment on facebook, and posted this > > Forest Grove School District > > Holly, > > we are still finalizing the details for graduation next year and will > > post as soon as they are confirmed. Your point about tickets is good, > > and we will look at ways to address that.Which my skeptic translator > tells > > me is that this means that they are going to not talk about it until > > "whoops" its too late we have to have it at Liberty because every other > > place is booked, and we cant change the day,,,shucks. > > > > :P wish me luck. > > > > Holly > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 13 12:25:38 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:25:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm confused why it matters where the actual graduation event is held. There are lots of high schools that hold their graduations at places like the Coliseum or Rose Garden because they simply don't have the room at their facility to accommodate the amount of people expected to attend. Why does FGHS have to be any different? FGHS is already overcrowded meaning trying to hold a graduation there will mean nobody will be happy because it'll be overcrowded and students will be restricted to only a few tickets each. I bet if you asked the students that most wouldn't care where it's held and many wouldn't even attend their graduation if it wasn't a requirement to receiving their diploma. So, again, why does it matter what the venue is? Also, as an aside, why does a decision like this need to be brought up before the parents to decide? It's clearly nothing more than basic a administrative decision that parents don't need to be involved with. Where's the trust that they can do the job they were hired for? Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Sep 13 12:33:16 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:33:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA1B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Let me suggest again using the Lincoln Park facility...big enough, comfortable, not too much set-up to do. Weather could be a factor... Mike -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Howden Sent: September 13, 2010 12:26 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty I'm confused why it matters where the actual graduation event is held. There are lots of high schools that hold their graduations at places like the Coliseum or Rose Garden because they simply don't have the room at their facility to accommodate the amount of people expected to attend. Why does FGHS have to be any different? FGHS is already overcrowded meaning trying to hold a graduation there will mean nobody will be happy because it'll be overcrowded and students will be restricted to only a few tickets each. I bet if you asked the students that most wouldn't care where it's held and many wouldn't even attend their graduation if it wasn't a requirement to receiving their diploma. So, again, why does it matter what the venue is? Also, as an aside, why does a decision like this need to be brought up before the parents to decide? It's clearly nothing more than basic a administrative decision that parents don't need to be involved with. Where's the trust that they can do the job they were hired for? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 12:34:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:34:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty References: Message-ID: <4C8E7CC2.000001.03108@DON-B2514E06367> Good points. I graduated in a football stadium. I'll bet others graduated in the gym, auditorium, or elsewhere offsite. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 09/13/10 12:25:53 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty I'm confused why it matters where the actual graduation event is held. There are lots of high schools that hold their graduations at places like the Coliseum or Rose Garden because they simply don't have the room at their facility to accommodate the amount of people expected to attend. Why does FGHS have to be any different? FGHS is already overcrowded meaning trying to hold a graduation there will mean nobody will be happy because it'll be overcrowded and students will be restricted to only a few tickets each. I bet if you asked the students that most wouldn't care where it's held and many wouldn't even attend their graduation if it wasn't a requirement to receiving their diploma. So, again, why does it matter what the venue is? Also, as an aside, why does a decision like this need to be brought up before the parents to decide? It's clearly nothing more than basic a administrative decision that parents don't need to be involved with. Where's the trust that they can do the job they were hired for? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100913/4e3b1da9/attachment.gif From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 13 12:43:16 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:43:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA1B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA1B@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <002d01cb537b$ec901720$c5b04560$@com> Mike, > From: Steele, Mike [mailto:steelem at pacificu.edu] > > Let me suggest again using the Lincoln Park facility...big enough, > comfortable, not too much set-up to do. Weather could be a factor... Yeah, I was going to suggest that too. Honestly, the only factors I think are important are the distance away from FG as some students will not have adequate parental support to get there (for one reason or another). So, the closer to FG it's held, the better the odds that all will attend. Additionally, with budget constraints, I think wherever it's held should be as economical as possible. For these reasons, I don't have a beef with it being at Liberty as much as I have a beef with it being held somewhere in Portland (Chiles Center, Rose Gardent, Coliseum, etc.) On a more general point though, why does it matter where it's held? Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Sep 13 12:44:46 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 12:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA1D@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Ha!! Bad memories for me...Michigan State used their 85,000 seat stadium for their HUGE commencement ceremony. I declined...so they mailed my Ph.D. diploma to me in a plain brown envelope. Very anti-climactic. :-) Mike -----Original Message----- From: donkelly Sent: September 13, 2010 12:34 PM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty Good points. I graduated in a football stadium. I'll bet others graduated in the gym, auditorium, or elsewhere offsite. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 09/13/10 12:25:53 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty I'm confused why it matters where the actual graduation event is held. There are lots of high schools that hold their graduations at places like the Coliseum or Rose Garden because they simply don't have the room at their facility to accommodate the amount of people expected to attend. Why does FGHS have to be any different? FGHS is already overcrowded meaning trying to hold a graduation there will mean nobody will be happy because it'll be overcrowded and students will be restricted to only a few tickets each. I bet if you asked the students that most wouldn't care where it's held and many wouldn't even attend their graduation if it wasn't a requirement to receiving their diploma. So, again, why does it matter what the venue is? Also, as an aside, why does a decision like this need to be brought up before the parents to decide? It's clearly nothing more than basic a administrative decision that parents don't need to be involved with. Where's the trust that they can do the job they were hired for? Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 15:28:23 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:28:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff asked: Where's the trust that they [school district administration] can do the job they were hired for? Unfortunately, a lot of the trust is squandered when the district fails - seemingly purposefully -to involve parents in decisions that affect the lives of all parents and families, such as this 1/2 hour late start every Wednesday. Deb Bratland On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > I'm confused why it matters where the actual graduation event is held. > There are lots of high schools that hold their graduations at places like > the Coliseum or Rose Garden because they simply don't have the room at > their > facility to accommodate the amount of people expected to attend. Why does > FGHS have to be any different? FGHS is already overcrowded meaning trying > to hold a graduation there will mean nobody will be happy because it'll be > overcrowded and students will be restricted to only a few tickets each. I > bet if you asked the students that most wouldn't care where it's held and > many wouldn't even attend their graduation if it wasn't a requirement to > receiving their diploma. > > So, again, why does it matter what the venue is? > > Also, as an aside, why does a decision like this need to be brought up > before the parents to decide? It's clearly nothing more than basic a > administrative decision that parents don't need to be involved with. > Where's the trust that they can do the job they were hired for? > > Jeff > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 13 16:06:13 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 16:06:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> Deb, > From: Debra Bratland [mailto:debbratland at gmail.com] > > Unfortunately, a lot of the trust is squandered when the > district fails - seemingly purposefully -to involve > parents in decisions that affect the lives of all > parents and families, such as this 1/2 hour late start > every Wednesday. I wouldn't be so quick to attribute their choice in process and involvement to malice. Then again, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. However, while I agree the 1/2 hour late start deserves discussion, I fail to see how a graduation venue decision is worth involving the public in. Jeff From debbratland at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 17:30:35 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:30:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> References: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> Message-ID: Whether malice or incompetence - neither engenders much trust. Perhaps people feel that the decision as to where to hold graduation is a decision that affects the graduating students and their families more than it affects the administrators. While the final decision must be made by the administration, perhaps the citizens feel that they would like the opportunity to help problem-solve the issue. The Student Based Health Center is an example of an issue that brought up many decisions that could have been made without any community input. But the school district's process of giving the community a voice on the issue helped to make it less contentious than it would have been. Anyway - as a regular attendee of the school board meetings, I think it's always good when someone comes and speaks his or her mind. Usually there are only 3 or 4 non-district employees at the board meetings, and I like it when citizens attend the meetings - for whatever reason. Deb Bratland. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Deb, > > > From: Debra Bratland [mailto:debbratland at gmail.com] > > > > Unfortunately, a lot of the trust is squandered when the > > district fails - seemingly purposefully -to involve > > parents in decisions that affect the lives of all > > parents and families, such as this 1/2 hour late start > > every Wednesday. > > I wouldn't be so quick to attribute their choice in process and involvement > to malice. Then again, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. > > However, while I agree the 1/2 hour late start deserves discussion, I fail > to see how a graduation venue decision is worth involving the public in. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From admin at jeffhowden.com Mon Sep 13 17:43:25 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:43:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: , , , <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> Message-ID: <00df01cb53a5$d7f75150$87e5f3f0$@com> Holly, > From: Holly Di [mailto:redhead854 at msn.com] > > [...] If we compromise dignity and graduate from another > high school [...] Any place in Portland that wasn't a High > school would be good. [...] demeaning our school spirit. I graduated from FGHS. At the time, we did it in the gymnasium with 5 tickets each student graduating. The place was absolutely jam-packed tight and ridiculously uncomfortable. I couldn't have cared less about where the graduation was actually held -- in an FGHS facility, a non-high-school facility, or a facility owned/operated by another high school in the area. Why does it matter so much what building you listen to a handful of boring speeches, walk the aisle and stage, and receive your diploma in? > doesn't make sense when the problem is counterfeit tickets. Wait, now the problem is counterfeit tickets? What percentage of the tickets do counterfeit tickets represent? Jeff From redhead854 at msn.com Mon Sep 13 22:37:36 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:37:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday results are in, congrats Vikings you will be In-Reply-To: <00df01cb53a5$d7f75150$87e5f3f0$@com> References: , , , , , , <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com>, , <00df01cb53a5$d7f75150$87e5f3f0$@com> Message-ID: All i can tell you about the counterfeit tickets is that each graduate last year got 5 tickets. with under 400 graduates that should have been 2k in guests, plus under 400 graduates=2300-2400 in attendance the center was set with seating for 2800 people. besides the seated people there was at least two rows of people standing around each side of the center, plus a group of abut 50 standing on the sides of the bleachers, tonight at the meeting former Principal O'Neil said that he turned 300 people away so he could start the procession of the graduates. So my rough estimate was more 700 people as extra guests. And the standers and the people turned away probably had valid tickets. The parents are feeling entitled to copying the tickets, its their right to invite as many people to the graduation as they want, they come really early and save seats. A coworker of mine admitted slyly and prouldly that his family copied tickets, to the 2010 event.....its common and accepted. I am not a public speaker and with my shakey voice I voiced my concerns. Nothing will change their minds unless there is such an up swelling from the parents that the venue has to be changed. The school district is being a good steward with the budget and they have scheduled the graduation piggybacked on another schools set up of chairs, and everything so that there is no labor costs. ALSO as such good stewards of the public money the only way to bring our graduation back to home territory is for the forest grove voters to pass the bond to build a large gym at the high school, then the graduates of the future can graduate at home. (which was mentioned a little less directly by the school board). My daughter used to ask me, mom why is the library closed on Fridays, my answer was because they have to close it when it hurts us the most so that we will feel the need to vote the bond measures in. My concerns is that it moving it to liberty only raises the per student ticket ratio to a possible max of 7.25 which is up from a potential of 6 guests per student. They were touting the Liberty move as students can have as many guests as they want, but that isn't true. If everyone would stick to the 5 tickets per student we could still graduate at the Stoller Center. (besides the dignity issues for the students and the community ) School board also suggested the overflow room (600 tickets) can be used for people that want to come but dont have a real ticket . Where I was thinking it would be business as usual except if the people showed up with a valid ticket and the seats were full they would get shown the closed circuit TV room. Not every family has people who can "camp out " like a rock concert for good seats and save for the family that comes later. Since the Venue cant/wont be changed the way the tickets are made must change. there are ways, safety paper, that says void when photocopied, actual tickets with rip off stubs that are numbered (not like raffle tickets but you can purchase card stock tickets that can be ran thru a professional photocopy machine if the district doesnt have one PU usually prints stuff for us at low cost.) let me know what you think Holly > From: admin at jeffhowden.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:43:25 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty > > Holly, > > > From: Holly Di [mailto:redhead854 at msn.com] > > > > [...] If we compromise dignity and graduate from another > > high school [...] Any place in Portland that wasn't a High > > school would be good. [...] demeaning our school spirit. > > I graduated from FGHS. At the time, we did it in the gymnasium with 5 > tickets each student graduating. The place was absolutely jam-packed tight > and ridiculously uncomfortable. I couldn't have cared less about where the > graduation was actually held -- in an FGHS facility, a non-high-school > facility, or a facility owned/operated by another high school in the area. > Why does it matter so much what building you listen to a handful of boring > speeches, walk the aisle and stage, and receive your diploma in? > > > doesn't make sense when the problem is counterfeit tickets. > > Wait, now the problem is counterfeit tickets? What percentage of the > tickets do counterfeit tickets represent? > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Sep 14 07:45:58 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 07:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> Message-ID: <015001cb541b$8c74dbf0$a55e93d0$@com> Deb, > From: Debra Bratland [mailto:debbratland at gmail.com] > > Whether malice or incompetence - neither engenders much trust. It's possible that it's neither malice or incompetence. The late start issue was alerted to me by both of my students last year. So, perhaps it's not a matter of the district not communicating with the parents, but more a problem with the specific school your children are in, with your own children bringing the relevant papers home, or perhaps even with you adequately keeping tabs on the things that come home with your children. > Perhaps people feel that the decision as to where to > hold graduation is a decision that affects the graduating > students and their families more than it affects the > administrators. So? As a Forest Grove grad, I say it's much ado about nothing. > While the final decision must be made by the administration, > perhaps the citizens feel that they would like the > opportunity to help problem-solve the issue. In my opinion, getting the citizens involved just creates more problems -- many where problems didn't previously exist. Jeff From lindam at wccls.org Tue Sep 14 10:53:30 2010 From: lindam at wccls.org (Linda Minor) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:53:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Practice your English or Spanish Message-ID: <94DD37F0A1DC734096E7762868418AD5034B7239@WCCLSWEBSTER.wccls.lib.or.us> Forest Grove City Library is pleased to offer English/Spanish language intercambios this fall. This means that for free, you can come to the library and spend time practicing your English or Spanish language skills under the direction of a bilingual facilitator. Thirty minutes is spent in each language while you help each other communicate in the topic for the evening. It's fun, you'll brush up your skills, and make friends to boot. Monday evenings at 6:45, starting September 27th. For more information, call Linda Taylor at the library, 503 992-3245 Linda Minor Reference Services Supervisor Forest Grove City Library 2114 Pacific Ave Forest Grove OR 97116 503 992-3280 503 992-3333 (F) From debbratland at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 11:29:44 2010 From: debbratland at gmail.com (Debra Bratland) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:29:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: <015001cb541b$8c74dbf0$a55e93d0$@com> References: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> <015001cb541b$8c74dbf0$a55e93d0$@com> Message-ID: Yes, Jeff, it's all my fault that I didn't hear about Late Start from my kids' school. And the school district never tries to slip anything past us, such as getting rid of a 2nd elective at NAMS or doing away with Honors Language Arts during the summer between principal changes. And from now on I will trust all public officials and will believe that they are all there doing a terrific job, and they don't require any citizen involvement or oversight because that just messes up their pure good intentions. And I don't communicate with my children, I don't know what they're doing in school, and I'm clueless as are the rest of the people who didn't hear about Late Start. Deb Bratland From admin at jeffhowden.com Tue Sep 14 12:12:14 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:12:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com> <015001cb541b$8c74dbf0$a55e93d0$@com> Message-ID: <000c01cb5440$becc20c0$3c646240$@com> Deb, > From: Debra Bratland [mailto:debbratland at gmail.com] > > Yes, Jeff, it's all my fault [snip rest of the sarcasm] Seriously, I merely offered alternatives to why you may not have known about the late start change. I didn't suggest any of the rest of what you're implying with your response. Jeff From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 14 15:02:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:02:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Roses Message-ID: <1084-4C8FF0F9-2894@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> MY 4th of July Rose is not open.. http://tinyurl.com/28a4e9v . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100914/0436c683/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://community.webtv.net/RosesFromHoss/Roses From dafracks at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 16:18:46 2010 From: dafracks at hotmail.com (Tracy Irwin) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:18:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty In-Reply-To: References: , , , <00cf01cb5398$448348a0$cd89d9e0$@com>, , <015001cb541b$8c74dbf0$a55e93d0$@com>, Message-ID: Debra you didn't get the letter? (and no discussion before hand?) Or you did and wish we'd had the opportunity to decide on it. It's true they do pull all kinds of wierd stuff on the QT. I know we had to battle for the music programs. I was at that meeting with NAMS that made them rescind their decision eventually on the new schedule. I'm glad my last child graduates this year. I'm sad for the parents who still have years of battle ahead > Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:29:44 -0700 > From: debbratland at gmail.com > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] School Board Meeting Monday - I will be there to complain about 2011 Seniors graduating from Liberty > > Yes, Jeff, it's all my fault that I didn't hear about Late Start from my > kids' school. And the school district never tries to slip anything past > us, such as getting rid of a 2nd elective at NAMS or doing away with Honors > Language Arts during the summer between principal changes. And from now on > I will trust all public officials and will believe that they are all there > doing a terrific job, and they don't require any citizen involvement or > oversight because that just messes up their pure good intentions. And > I don't communicate with my children, I don't know what they're doing in > school, and I'm clueless as are the rest of the people who didn't hear about > Late Start. > > Deb Bratland > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canam58 at msn.com Thu Sep 16 18:39:00 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:39:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info In-Reply-To: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Message-ID: I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class Women are welcome too. I did this for a semester and it was great! (Hope to get back again soon.) Katie On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no > experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, > there's always a project. In between, picture frames. > > > > Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule > > Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking equipment > and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all > levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. > > Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. > Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance > around east side facing health center. > > For info: Higginbotham, Christopher > [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us > ] > > First 10 Weeks > 1. Sept. 20 > > 2. Sept. 27 > > 3. Oct. 4 > > 4. Oct. 11 > > 5. Oct. 18 > > 6. Oct. 25 > > 7. Nov. 1 > > 8. Nov. 8 > > 9. Nov. 15 > > 10. Nov. 22 > > Second 10 Weeks > 1. Nov. 29 > > 2. Dec. 2 > > 3. Dec. 13 > > 4. Jan. 3 > > 5. Jan. 10 > > Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday > > 6. Jan. 24 > > 7. Jan. 31 > > 8. Feb. 7 > > 9. Feb. 14 > > Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day > > 10. Feb. 28 > > Third 10 Weeks > 1. Mar. 7 > > 2. Mar. 14 > > Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break > > 3. Mar. 28 > > 4. Apr. 4 > > 5. Apr. 11 > > 6. Apr. 18 > > 7. Apr. 25 > > 8. May 2 > > 9. May 9 > > 10. May 16 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Thu Sep 16 19:08:02 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:08:02 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info In-Reply-To: References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Message-ID: Try the Web page for Wardjet, at http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, sometimes free. Walt On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info > or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN > 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- > From: Katie Allnutt > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class > > > Women are welcome too. > I did this for a semester and it was great! > (Hope to get back again soon.) > > Katie > > On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > >> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no >> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, >> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. >> >> >> >> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule >> >> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking >> equipment >> and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all >> levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. >> >> Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. >> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance >> around east side facing health center. >> >> For info: Higginbotham, Christopher >> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us >> ] >> >> First 10 Weeks >> 1. Sept. 20 >> >> 2. Sept. 27 >> >> 3. Oct. 4 >> >> 4. Oct. 11 >> >> 5. Oct. 18 >> >> 6. Oct. 25 >> >> 7. Nov. 1 >> >> 8. Nov. 8 >> >> 9. Nov. 15 >> >> 10. Nov. 22 >> >> Second 10 Weeks >> 1. Nov. 29 >> >> 2. Dec. 2 >> >> 3. Dec. 13 >> >> 4. Jan. 3 >> >> 5. Jan. 10 >> >> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday >> >> 6. Jan. 24 >> >> 7. Jan. 31 >> >> 8. Feb. 7 >> >> 9. Feb. 14 >> >> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day >> >> 10. Feb. 28 >> >> Third 10 Weeks >> 1. Mar. 7 >> >> 2. Mar. 14 >> >> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break >> >> 3. Mar. 28 >> >> 4. Apr. 4 >> >> 5. Apr. 11 >> >> 6. Apr. 18 >> >> 7. Apr. 25 >> >> 8. May 2 >> >> 9. May 9 >> >> 10. May 16 >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at verizon.net Fri Sep 17 01:11:06 2010 From: jo.david at verizon.net (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 01:11:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Home town Message-ID: <6FE0388F-CEE6-4A9C-825F-6A2FD6184A05@verizon.net> Congratulations Walt. David From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 17 07:37:29 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 07:37:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Home town In-Reply-To: <6FE0388F-CEE6-4A9C-825F-6A2FD6184A05@verizon.net> References: <6FE0388F-CEE6-4A9C-825F-6A2FD6184A05@verizon.net> Message-ID: They musta been scraping the bottom of the barrel... ;^) But thanks, David! On Sep 17, 2010, at 1:11 AM, David Morelli wrote: > Congratulations Walt. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From smithsmith at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 08:15:59 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:15:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Mensch Festival Message-ID: Mensch Festival at Pacific tonight. 5-10pm Art and Music! From allnutt at frontier.com Fri Sep 17 08:44:06 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:44:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Home town In-Reply-To: References: <6FE0388F-CEE6-4A9C-825F-6A2FD6184A05@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8101F979-D409-4DED-8EF5-C2C83245132C@frontier.com> I must have been a barrel where all the good stuff settles in the bottom! You deserve all the accolades and more Walt. Katie On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Walt Wentz wrote: > They musta been scraping the bottom of the barrel... ;^) > But thanks, David! > > On Sep 17, 2010, at 1:11 AM, David Morelli wrote: > >> Congratulations Walt. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 08:47:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:47:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C938D7B.000001.01780@DON-B2514E06367> Dwight Checked it out and Wards Parts search did not list that model number. You might try HPS in Cornelius to see if they have the parts lookup fiches Don -------Original Message------- From: DWIGHT HOLMES Date: 09/16/10 18:42:29 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- From: Katie Allnutt To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class Women are welcome too. I did this for a semester and it was great! (Hope to get back again soon.) Katie On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no > experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, > there's always a project. In between, picture frames. > > > > Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule > > Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking equipment > and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all > levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. > > Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. > Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance > around east side facing health center. > > For info: Higginbotham, Christopher > [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us > ] > > First 10 Weeks > 1. Sept. 20 > > 2. Sept. 27 > > 3. Oct. 4 > > 4. Oct. 11 > > 5. Oct. 18 > > 6. Oct. 25 > > 7. Nov. 1 > > 8. Nov. 8 > > 9. Nov. 15 > > 10. Nov. 22 > > Second 10 Weeks > 1. Nov. 29 > > 2. Dec. 2 > > 3. Dec. 13 > > 4. Jan. 3 > > 5. Jan. 10 > > Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday > > 6. Jan. 24 > > 7. Jan. 31 > > 8. Feb. 7 > > 9. Feb. 14 > > Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day > > 10. Feb. 28 > > Third 10 Weeks > 1. Mar. 7 > > 2. Mar. 14 > > Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break > > 3. Mar. 28 > > 4. Apr. 4 > > 5. Apr. 11 > > 6. Apr. 18 > > 7. Apr. 25 > > 8. May 2 > > 9. May 9 > > 10. May 16 > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100917/9dfc8b65/attachment.gif From edavie at verizon.net Fri Sep 17 09:22:12 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:22:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Home town In-Reply-To: References: <6FE0388F-CEE6-4A9C-825F-6A2FD6184A05@verizon.net> Message-ID: ?And congrats again! Ed From: Walt Wentz Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:37 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Home town They musta been scraping the bottom of the barrel... ;^) But thanks, David! On Sep 17, 2010, at 1:11 AM, David Morelli wrote: > Congratulations Walt. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Sep 17 10:15:37 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:15:37 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] some one re did the rutabaga site Message-ID: <15370-4C93A239-1153@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100917/fff9c76e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- http://www.rutastudies.org/ From isis23ra at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 10:30:21 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Mensch Festival today: free Ice Cream! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <27845.54000.qm@web55604.mail.re4.yahoo.com> The 3rd Annual MENSCH Festival of Music and Art, this Friday (17th) from 5:00 to 10:00 has been moved to the UC.? Don't miss it:? great bands, 25 artists showing their work, and FREE ICE CREAM at 8:00. MENSCH Bands: PACIFIC?S PERCUSSION ENSEMBLE:? 5:00 - 6:00 (Dr. Adam Rafalovich) ILL LUCID ONSET:? Indie/Atmospheric Rock???6:30 - 7:30 (Ryan Aiello) NATURAL INCENSE:? Reggae???8:00 - 10:00 Sponsored by ACE Board and CGE Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From edavie at verizon.net Fri Sep 17 13:14:39 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:14:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] some one re did the rutabaga site In-Reply-To: <15370-4C93A239-1153@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15370-4C93A239-1153@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <78524C62241A460DAA3E8E55763FA65C@EdDaviePC> ?He updates it occasionally. It didn't look much different to me. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 10:15 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] some one re did the rutabaga site http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canam58 at msn.com Fri Sep 17 18:42:57 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:42:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info In-Reply-To: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Message-ID: Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial water cutting type of machine. Dwight ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info Try the Web page for Wardjet, at http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, sometimes free. Walt On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info > or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN > 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- > From: Katie Allnutt> > To: Forest Grove local interests list> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class > > > Women are welcome too. > I did this for a semester and it was great! > (Hope to get back again soon.) > > Katie > > On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: > >> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no >> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, >> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. >> >> >> >> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule >> >> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking >> equipment >> and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all >> levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. >> >> Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. >> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance >> around east side facing health center. >> >> For info: Higginbotham, Christopher >> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us >> ] >> >> First 10 Weeks >> 1. Sept. 20 >> >> 2. Sept. 27 >> >> 3. Oct. 4 >> >> 4. Oct. 11 >> >> 5. Oct. 18 >> >> 6. Oct. 25 >> >> 7. Nov. 1 >> >> 8. Nov. 8 >> >> 9. Nov. 15 >> >> 10. Nov. 22 >> >> Second 10 Weeks >> 1. Nov. 29 >> >> 2. Dec. 2 >> >> 3. Dec. 13 >> >> 4. Jan. 3 >> >> 5. Jan. 10 >> >> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday >> >> 6. Jan. 24 >> >> 7. Jan. 31 >> >> 8. Feb. 7 >> >> 9. Feb. 14 >> >> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day >> >> 10. Feb. 28 >> >> Third 10 Weeks >> 1. Mar. 7 >> >> 2. Mar. 14 >> >> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break >> >> 3. Mar. 28 >> >> 4. Apr. 4 >> >> 5. Apr. 11 >> >> 6. Apr. 18 >> >> 7. Apr. 25 >> >> 8. May 2 >> >> 9. May 9 >> >> 10. May 16 >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 17 19:54:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:54:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info In-Reply-To: References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> Message-ID: <91DFB652-AF22-4871-98BA-39E3C645A154@teleport.com> OK. Probably the same manufacturer, but i would second Don Kelly's advice to contact HPS in Cornelius. On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:42 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump > for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial > water cutting type of machine. > > Dwight > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info > > > Try the Web page for Wardjet, at > http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp > > There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, > sometimes free. > Walt > > On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > >> I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info >> or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN >> 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- >> From: Katie >> Allnutt> >> To: Forest Grove local interests >> list> >> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class >> >> >> Women are welcome too. >> I did this for a semester and it was great! >> (Hope to get back again soon.) >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: >> >>> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no >>> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, >>> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. >>> >>> >>> >>> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule >>> >>> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking >>> equipment >>> and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all >>> levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. >>> >>> Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. >>> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance >>> around east side facing health center. >>> >>> For info: Higginbotham, Christopher >>> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us >>> ] >>> >>> First 10 Weeks >>> 1. Sept. 20 >>> >>> 2. Sept. 27 >>> >>> 3. Oct. 4 >>> >>> 4. Oct. 11 >>> >>> 5. Oct. 18 >>> >>> 6. Oct. 25 >>> >>> 7. Nov. 1 >>> >>> 8. Nov. 8 >>> >>> 9. Nov. 15 >>> >>> 10. Nov. 22 >>> >>> Second 10 Weeks >>> 1. Nov. 29 >>> >>> 2. Dec. 2 >>> >>> 3. Dec. 13 >>> >>> 4. Jan. 3 >>> >>> 5. Jan. 10 >>> >>> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday >>> >>> 6. Jan. 24 >>> >>> 7. Jan. 31 >>> >>> 8. Feb. 7 >>> >>> 9. Feb. 14 >>> >>> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day >>> >>> 10. Feb. 28 >>> >>> Third 10 Weeks >>> 1. Mar. 7 >>> >>> 2. Mar. 14 >>> >>> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break >>> >>> 3. Mar. 28 >>> >>> 4. Apr. 4 >>> >>> 5. Apr. 11 >>> >>> 6. Apr. 18 >>> >>> 7. Apr. 25 >>> >>> 8. May 2 >>> >>> 9. May 9 >>> >>> 10. May 16 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com>> om%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> m%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canam58 at msn.com Sat Sep 18 10:01:55 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:01:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Jet pump info In-Reply-To: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> <91DFB652-AF22-4871-98BA-39E3C645A154@teleport.com> References: <23E3DB27-E0AB-4D21-8D9D-C6C075A7A0BB@frontier.com> <91DFB652-AF22-4871-98BA-39E3C645A154@teleport.com> Message-ID: I did and they said it was kind of a made for wards pump and it might be tough to get parts for it if I ever had to repair it. I would think the basic design would still be similar to others or whoever made it for Wards . Dwight ----- Original Message ----- From: Walt Wentz To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info OK. Probably the same manufacturer, but i would second Don Kelly's advice to contact HPS in Cornelius. On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:42 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump > for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial > water cutting type of machine. > > Dwight > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Walt Wentz> > To: Forest Grove local interests list> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info > > > Try the Web page for Wardjet, at > http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp> > > There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, > sometimes free. > Walt > > On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > >> I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info >> or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN >> 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- >> From: Katie >> Allnutt>> >> To: Forest Grove local interests >> list>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class >> >> >> Women are welcome too. >> I did this for a semester and it was great! >> (Hope to get back again soon.) >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: >> >>> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no >>> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, >>> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. >>> >>> >>> >>> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule >>> >>> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking >>> equipment >>> and have a place to work on their projects. Class allows for all >>> levels of experience. Beginners are welcome. >>> >>> Cost: $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. >>> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance >>> around east side facing health center. >>> >>> For info: Higginbotham, Christopher >>> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us >>> ] >>> >>> First 10 Weeks >>> 1. Sept. 20 >>> >>> 2. Sept. 27 >>> >>> 3. Oct. 4 >>> >>> 4. Oct. 11 >>> >>> 5. Oct. 18 >>> >>> 6. Oct. 25 >>> >>> 7. Nov. 1 >>> >>> 8. Nov. 8 >>> >>> 9. Nov. 15 >>> >>> 10. Nov. 22 >>> >>> Second 10 Weeks >>> 1. Nov. 29 >>> >>> 2. Dec. 2 >>> >>> 3. Dec. 13 >>> >>> 4. Jan. 3 >>> >>> 5. Jan. 10 >>> >>> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday >>> >>> 6. Jan. 24 >>> >>> 7. Jan. 31 >>> >>> 8. Feb. 7 >>> >>> 9. Feb. 14 >>> >>> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day >>> >>> 10. Feb. 28 >>> >>> Third 10 Weeks >>> 1. Mar. 7 >>> >>> 2. Mar. 14 >>> >>> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break >>> >>> 3. Mar. 28 >>> >>> 4. Apr. 4 >>> >>> 5. Apr. 11 >>> >>> 6. Apr. 18 >>> >>> 7. Apr. 25 >>> >>> 8. May 2 >>> >>> 9. May 9 >>> >>> 10. May 16 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> om%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> m%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 18 10:08:51 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:08:51 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100918/e9160df5/attachment.html From g-g-steele at comcast.net Sat Sep 18 10:15:16 2010 From: g-g-steele at comcast.net (Geri Steele) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:15:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Back at ya, Alan! Geri From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Sat Sep 18 11:11:32 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:11:32 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: ?No rain yet today, Alan. And I was up. Out on my walk. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 18 11:15:15 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:15:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You References: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4C9501AF.000010.00252@DON-B2514E06367> Nice sunup, but now it may turn to rain. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 9/18/2010 11:12:56 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You ?No rain yet today, Alan. And I was up. Out on my walk. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100918/0374946e/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 18 13:53:09 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:53:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: "Geri Steele" 's message of Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <24781-4C9526B5-8074@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> me rhinks I should of added ... have a fun and wet week end -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100918/d42619a9/attachment.html From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 18 17:46:03 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:46:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15367-4C94F223-4341@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <002AFAE0-F861-4A32-B67E-4E0B0905797D@frontier.com> I wish the day had been as bright and sparkly as the card! Thanks for thinking of all of us Alan. Katie On Sep 18, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- > http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > Roses > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 18 21:00:04 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:00:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:46:03 -0700 Message-ID: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> What the matter "KID" ya don't care for the rain that stops the county wide burn ban? And I suppose had it been nice and hot you would complained also? LOL it's 65* at 9pm and 1/4 inch more rain I'll have to add to this mornings total of 1/4 inch, so sunday morning will be even more. 1/2 today so far (I hope) ------- Katie wrote... Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 5:46pm To: I wish the day had been as bright and sparkly as the card! Thanks for thinking of all of us Alan. Katie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100918/acb5e569/attachment.html From allnutt at frontier.com Sat Sep 18 21:51:04 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:51:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Ha ha ha Alan you have me half way figured out. I usually prefer the rain but today would have been nice to have it a bit drier. And yes, of course I would complain if it was too hot . (Had more than enough of those over 110 degree days when I lived in the southwest.) I'm so thrilled with Oregon weather I usually think 'hot' is anything over 80. We are pretty spoiled up here in the NW with our great weather. But I do get to wish for sparkly days when I need them don't I??? Katie On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > What the matter "KID" ya don't care for the rain that stops the county > wide burn ban? And I suppose had it been nice and hot you would > complained also? LOL > it's 65* at 9pm and 1/4 inch more rain I'll have to add to this > mornings > total of 1/4 inch, so sunday morning will be even more. 1/2 today > so far > (I hope) > ------- > Katie wrote... > Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 5:46pm To: I wish the day had been as bright > and sparkly as the card! > Thanks for thinking of all of us Alan. > Katie > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > Roses > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From theresacus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 05:32:00 2010 From: theresacus at yahoo.com (Theresa Carter) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 05:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] GroveNet Digest, Vol 70, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <366191.1993.qm@web34505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MUSIC IN THE PARK ? Plan "R" - Due to rain has moved today,?to Grindels and Friendly Vine on the corner of Main and Pacific.?? 1:00? Open Mic 2:00 Tim Trautman and Pick Ticket 3:00? Open Jam ? ? ? ? ? From: grovenet-request at rdrop.com Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 70, Issue 17 To: grovenet at rdrop.com Date: Saturday, September 18, 2010, 12:00 PM Send GroveNet mailing list submissions to ??? grovenet at rdrop.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? grovenet-request at rdrop.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? grovenet-owner at rdrop.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of GroveNet digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. Re: some one re did the rutabaga site (Ed Davie) ???2. Re: Jet pump info (DWIGHT HOLMES) ???3. Re: Jet pump info (Walt Wentz) ???4. Re: Jet pump info (DWIGHT HOLMES) ???5. A Hosstyle Greeting For You (Alan Domenghini) ???6. Re: A Hosstyle Greeting For You (Geri Steele) ???7. Re: A Hosstyle Greeting For You (Ed Davie) ???8. Re: A Hosstyle Greeting For You (donkelly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 13:14:39 -0700 From: "Ed Davie" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] some one re did the rutabaga site To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <78524C62241A460DAA3E8E55763FA65C at EdDaviePC> Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" ?He updates it occasionally. It didn't look much different to me. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 10:15 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] some one re did the rutabaga site http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.rutastudies.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:42:57 -0700 From: "DWIGHT HOLMES" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="Windows-1252" Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial water cutting type of machine.? ? Dwight ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: Walt Wentz ? To: Forest Grove local interests list ? Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM ? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info ? Try the Web page for Wardjet, at ? ? http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp ? There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals,? ? sometimes free. ? Walt ? On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: ? > I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info? ? > or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN? ? > 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- ? >???From: Katie Allnutt> ? >???To: Forest Grove local interests list> ? >???Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM ? >???Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class ? > ? > ? >???Women are welcome too. ? >???I did this for a semester and it was great! ? >???(Hope to get back again soon.) ? > ? >???Katie ? > ? >???On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: ? > ? >> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no ? >> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, ? >> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. ? >> ? >> ? >> ? >> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule ? >> ? >> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking? ? >> equipment ? >> and have a place to work on their projects.? Class allows for all ? >> levels of experience.? Beginners are welcome. ? >> ? >> Cost:? $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. ? >> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance ? >> around east side facing health center. ? >> ? >> For info:? Higginbotham, Christopher ? >> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us ? >> ] ? >> ? >> First 10 Weeks ? >> 1.? ???Sept. 20 ? >> ? >> 2.? ???Sept. 27 ? >> ? >> 3.? ???Oct. 4 ? >> ? >> 4.? ???Oct. 11 ? >> ? >> 5.? ???Oct. 18 ? >> ? >> 6.? ???Oct. 25 ? >> ? >> 7.? ???Nov. 1 ? >> ? >> 8.? ???Nov. 8 ? >> ? >> 9.? ???Nov. 15 ? >> ? >> 10.? Nov. 22 ? >> ? >> Second 10 Weeks ? >> 1.? ???Nov. 29 ? >> ? >> 2.? ???Dec. 2 ? >> ? >> 3.? ???Dec.? 13 ? >> ? >> 4.? ???Jan. 3 ? >> ? >> 5.? ???Jan. 10 ? >> ? >> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday ? >> ? >> 6.? ???Jan. 24 ? >> ? >> 7.? ???Jan. 31 ? >> ? >> 8.? ???Feb. 7 ? >> ? >> 9.? ???Feb. 14 ? >> ? >> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day ? >> ? >> 10.? Feb. 28 ? >> ? >> Third 10 Weeks ? >> 1.? ???Mar. 7 ? >> ? >> 2.? ???Mar. 14 ? >> ? >> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break ? >> ? >> 3.? ???Mar. 28 ? >> ? >> 4.? ???Apr. 4 ? >> ? >> 5.? ???Apr. 11 ? >> ? >> 6.? ???Apr. 18 ? >> ? >> 7.? ???Apr. 25 ? >> ? >> 8.? ???May 2 ? >> ? >> 9.? ???May 9 ? >> ? >> 10.? May 16 ? >> _______________________________________________ ? >> GroveNet mailing list ? >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> ? >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> ? > ? > ? > ? >???_______________________________________________ ? >???GroveNet mailing list ? >???GroveNet at rdrop.com> ? >???http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? > www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> ? > _______________________________________________ ? > GroveNet mailing list ? > GroveNet at rdrop.com ? > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? _______________________________________________ ? GroveNet mailing list ? GroveNet at rdrop.com ? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:54:13 -0700 From: Walt Wentz Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info To: Forest Grove local interests list Message-ID: <91DFB652-AF22-4871-98BA-39E3C645A154 at teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; ??? format=flowed OK. Probably the same manufacturer, but i would second Don Kelly's? advice to contact HPS in Cornelius. On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:42 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: >? Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump? > for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial? > water cutting type of machine. > > Dwight >???----- Original Message ----- >???From: Walt Wentz >???To: Forest Grove local interests list >???Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM >???Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info > > >???Try the Web page for Wardjet, at >? ???http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp > >???There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, >???sometimes free. >???Walt > >???On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > >> I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info >> or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN >> 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- >>???From: Katie? >> Allnutt> >>???To: Forest Grove local interests? >> list> >>???Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM >>???Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class >> >> >>???Women are welcome too. >>???I did this for a semester and it was great! >>???(Hope to get back again soon.) >> >>???Katie >> >>???On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: >> >>> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no >>> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, >>> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. >>> >>> >>> >>> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule >>> >>> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking >>> equipment >>> and have a place to work on their projects.? Class allows for all >>> levels of experience.? Beginners are welcome. >>> >>> Cost:? $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. >>> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance >>> around east side facing health center. >>> >>> For info:? Higginbotham, Christopher >>> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us >>> ] >>> >>> First 10 Weeks >>> 1.? ???Sept. 20 >>> >>> 2.? ???Sept. 27 >>> >>> 3.? ???Oct. 4 >>> >>> 4.? ???Oct. 11 >>> >>> 5.? ???Oct. 18 >>> >>> 6.? ???Oct. 25 >>> >>> 7.? ???Nov. 1 >>> >>> 8.? ???Nov. 8 >>> >>> 9.? ???Nov. 15 >>> >>> 10.? Nov. 22 >>> >>> Second 10 Weeks >>> 1.? ???Nov. 29 >>> >>> 2.? ???Dec. 2 >>> >>> 3.? ???Dec.? 13 >>> >>> 4.? ???Jan. 3 >>> >>> 5.? ???Jan. 10 >>> >>> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday >>> >>> 6.? ???Jan. 24 >>> >>> 7.? ???Jan. 31 >>> >>> 8.? ???Feb. 7 >>> >>> 9.? ???Feb. 14 >>> >>> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day >>> >>> 10.? Feb. 28 >>> >>> Third 10 Weeks >>> 1.? ???Mar. 7 >>> >>> 2.? ???Mar. 14 >>> >>> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break >>> >>> 3.? ???Mar. 28 >>> >>> 4.? ???Apr. 4 >>> >>> 5.? ???Apr. 11 >>> >>> 6.? ???Apr. 18 >>> >>> 7.? ???Apr. 25 >>> >>> 8.? ???May 2 >>> >>> 9.? ???May 9 >>> >>> 10.? May 16 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com>> om%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> >> >> >>???_______________________________________________ >>???GroveNet mailing list >>? ? >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> m%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> >>???http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > > > >???_______________________________________________ >???GroveNet mailing list >???GroveNet at rdrop.com >???http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:01:55 -0700 From: "DWIGHT HOLMES" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="Windows-1252" I did and they said it was kind of a made for wards pump and it might be tough to get parts for it if I ever had to repair it. I would think the basic design would still be similar to others or whoever made it for Wards . Dwight ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: Walt Wentz ? To: Forest Grove local interests list ? Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 7:54 PM ? Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info ? OK. Probably the same manufacturer, but i would second Don Kelly's? ? advice to contact HPS in Cornelius. ? On Sep 17, 2010, at 6:42 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: ? >? Sorry Walt but I should have mentioned it is an irrigation pump? ? > for my yard. The info you gave me was for some kind of industrial? ? > water cutting type of machine. ? > ? > Dwight ? >???----- Original Message ----- ? >???From: Walt Wentz> ? >???To: Forest Grove local interests list> ? >???Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:08 PM ? >???Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Jet pump info ? > ? > ? >???Try the Web page for Wardjet, at ? >? ???http://www.wardjet.com/pumps.asp> ? > ? >???There are also some outfits online that offer numerouss manuals, ? >???sometimes free. ? >???Walt ? > ? >???On Sep 16, 2010, at 6:39 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: ? > ? >> I know it's crazy but does anyone have an idea where to locate info ? >> or find a manual for an old Wards 3/4 HP Jet pump ( model SBN ? >> 24217A )?----- Original Message ----- ? >>???From: Katie? ? >> Allnutt>> ? >>???To: Forest Grove local interests? ? >> list>> ? >>???Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:51 AM ? >>???Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Woodworking class ? >> ? >> ? >>???Women are welcome too. ? >>???I did this for a semester and it was great! ? >>???(Hope to get back again soon.) ? >> ? >>???Katie ? >> ? >>???On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Martha Khoury wrote: ? >> ? >>> My husband has been doing this for many years -- started with no ? >>> experience and now has made a lot of our furniture. In an old house, ? >>> there's always a project. In between, picture frames. ? >>> ? >>> ? >>> ? >>> Monday Night Woods - 2010-2011 Schedule ? >>> ? >>> Woods class for adults that want to learn to use woodworking ? >>> equipment ? >>> and have a place to work on their projects.? Class allows for all ? >>> levels of experience.? Beginners are welcome. ? >>> ? >>> Cost:? $130 for ten weeks and repeats three times each school year. ? >>> Class meets from 6:30 to 9:30 PM at the FGHS Woodshop -- entrance ? >>> around east side facing health center. ? >>> ? >>> For info:? Higginbotham, Christopher ? >>> [mailto:CHigginbotham at fgsd.k12.or.us ? >>> ] ? >>> ? >>> First 10 Weeks ? >>> 1.? ???Sept. 20 ? >>> ? >>> 2.? ???Sept. 27 ? >>> ? >>> 3.? ???Oct. 4 ? >>> ? >>> 4.? ???Oct. 11 ? >>> ? >>> 5.? ???Oct. 18 ? >>> ? >>> 6.? ???Oct. 25 ? >>> ? >>> 7.? ???Nov. 1 ? >>> ? >>> 8.? ???Nov. 8 ? >>> ? >>> 9.? ???Nov. 15 ? >>> ? >>> 10.? Nov. 22 ? >>> ? >>> Second 10 Weeks ? >>> 1.? ???Nov. 29 ? >>> ? >>> 2.? ???Dec. 2 ? >>> ? >>> 3.? ???Dec.? 13 ? >>> ? >>> 4.? ???Jan. 3 ? >>> ? >>> 5.? ???Jan. 10 ? >>> ? >>> Jan. 17 NO CLASS ? MLK Holiday ? >>> ? >>> 6.? ???Jan. 24 ? >>> ? >>> 7.? ???Jan. 31 ? >>> ? >>> 8.? ???Feb. 7 ? >>> ? >>> 9.? ???Feb. 14 ? >>> ? >>> Feb. 21 NO CLASS ? President?s Day ? >>> ? >>> 10.? Feb. 28 ? >>> ? >>> Third 10 Weeks ? >>> 1.? ???Mar. 7 ? >>> ? >>> 2.? ???Mar. 14 ? >>> ? >>> Mar. 21 NO CLASS ? Spring Break ? >>> ? >>> 3.? ???Mar. 28 ? >>> ? >>> 4.? ???Apr. 4 ? >>> ? >>> 5.? ???Apr. 11 ? >>> ? >>> 6.? ???Apr. 18 ? >>> ? >>> 7.? ???Apr. 25 ? >>> ? >>> 8.? ???May 2 ? >>> ? >>> 9.? ???May 9 ? >>> ? >>> 10.? May 16 ? >>> _______________________________________________ ? >>> GroveNet mailing list ? >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com ? >>> om%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> ? >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> ? >>> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >>> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> ? >> ? >> ? >> ? >>???_______________________________________________ ? >>???GroveNet mailing list ? >>? ? ? >> GroveNet at rdrop.com ? >> m%3Cmailto:GroveNet at rdrop.com>> ? >>???http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet%3Chttp://> ? >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >> mailman/listinfo/grovenet>> ? >> _______________________________________________ ? >> GroveNet mailing list ? >> GroveNet at rdrop.com> ? >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? >> www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> ? > ? > ? > ? >???_______________________________________________ ? >???GroveNet mailing list ? >???GroveNet at rdrop.com> ? >???http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? > www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet> ? > _______________________________________________ ? > GroveNet mailing list ? > GroveNet at rdrop.com ? > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ? _______________________________________________ ? GroveNet mailing list ? GroveNet at rdrop.com ? http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:08:51 -0700 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You To: grovenet at rdrop.com Message-ID: <15367-4C94F223-4341 at storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100918/e9160df5/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 10:15:16 -0700 From: "Geri Steele" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" Back at ya, Alan! Geri From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:11:32 -0700 From: "Ed Davie" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;??? charset="iso-8859-1" ?No rain yet today, Alan. And I was up. Out on my walk. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 11:15:15 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "donkelly" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Message-ID: <4C9501AF.000010.00252 at DON-B2514E06367> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Nice sunup, but now it may turn to rain. Don -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 9/18/2010 11:12:56 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You ?No rain yet today, Alan. And I was up. Out on my walk. Ed From: Alan Domenghini Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:08 AM To: grovenet at rdrop.com Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Fun Weekend.. :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/hapsat.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :<) rain up date Roses ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100918/0374946e/attachment-0001.gif ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 70, Issue 17 **************************************** From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 19 07:27:59 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 07:27:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: Katie Allnutt 's message of Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:51:04 -0700 Message-ID: <15367-4C961DEF-5457@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> I forgot to mentioned that I burned all the trimmings. from some other trees for fire wood, a and cut up an old dead. maple tree that I had to take down. By the time I was done, I soaked, and the only excuse for that is ...... I'm an ex-californian who has not learned to come in out of the rain yet. now when I boast to my Cal family and friends .. I tell them that I get more rain by accident in one ore two hours than they get their whole season. ta, ta, 4 now Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100919/97dd9a15/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 19 07:43:06 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 07:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle greeting For You Message-ID: <15366-4C96217A-6922@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi , Rain or shine ... This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Sunday :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/sundayrest.html and thanks to all of you who are not afraid to give an OleHoss the dickens when he needs it. {:?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100919/302186ea/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Sun Sep 19 09:16:13 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:16:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: References: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Yep. Spent four hours yesterday with a bunch of folks helping a a friend move, and the rain wasn't welcome-- we were tramping mud on every carpeted floor in the house. And, of course, all the tomatoes in the Community Garden are splitting and rotting. And the Chalk Art Festival got rained on. The air was still warm, so the humidity was high and everything felt damp and clammy. But, wot the hell... if you can't stand the wet, stay out of the sauna, I guess. Oregon still has all the other amenities that keep us all here... among them being the Freedom to Grumble about the weather. WW On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Ha ha ha Alan you have me half way figured out. I usually prefer the > rain but today would have been nice to have it a bit drier. > And yes, of course I would complain if it was too hot . (Had > more than enough of those over 110 degree days when I lived in the > southwest.) I'm so thrilled with Oregon weather I usually think 'hot' > is anything over 80. We are pretty spoiled up here in the NW with our > great weather. > > But I do get to wish for sparkly days when I need them don't I??? > > Katie > > > > On Sep 18, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > >> What the matter "KID" ya don't care for the rain that stops the >> county >> wide burn ban? And I suppose had it been nice and hot you would >> complained also? LOL >> it's 65* at 9pm and 1/4 inch more rain I'll have to add to this >> mornings >> total of 1/4 inch, so sunday morning will be even more. 1/2 today >> so far >> (I hope) >> ------- >> Katie wrote... >> Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010, 5:46pm To: I wish the day had been as >> bright >> and sparkly as the card! >> Thanks for thinking of all of us Alan. >> Katie >> >> ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) >> >> >> rain up date >> Roses >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 20 07:41:25 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:41:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <24785-4C977295-3073@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Monday :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield2.html psss... don't forget to check the rain up date! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100920/949a3ff8/attachment.html From allnutt at frontier.com Mon Sep 20 18:28:53 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:28:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Another chance to clean out your medicine cabinet In-Reply-To: References: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: If I remember correctly the last collection drive was to keep our water ways clean. This one is being driven by the DEA to keep illicit drug use down, but in either case it gives us a chance to turn in all the old expired drugs from the back of the medicine cabinet. http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/takeback/ 10-2 pm on Sept 25 at the FG police station (and other locations if you don't live in FG) I think it is a good idea to safely get rid of prescriptions that you don't need or won't use but I hope the DEA isn't just going to flush them down the drain.... Katie From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 21 08:19:01 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 08:19:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <28203-4C98CCE5-2407@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Me thinks this one Katie will like! Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Morning With Garfield :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html2/garfieldtoaster.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100921/065b16e8/attachment.html From phoenixacup at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:04:35 2010 From: phoenixacup at gmail.com (Jane Burch-Pesses) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:04:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Another chance to clean out your medicine cabinet In-Reply-To: References: <15376-4C958AC4-73@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Yes, flushing is a REALLY bad idea. Jane B-P On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > If I remember correctly the last collection drive was to keep our > water ways clean. > This one is being driven by the DEA to keep illicit drug use down, > but in either case it gives us a chance to turn in all the old > expired drugs from the back of the medicine cabinet. > > http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/takeback/ > > > 10-2 pm on Sept 25 at the FG police station (and other locations if > you don't live in FG) > > I think it is a good idea to safely get rid of prescriptions that you > don't need or won't use but I hope the DEA isn't just going to flush > them down the drain.... > > > Katie > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > -- Phoenix Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Home of the TAO (Team Against Obesity) www.phoenix-acupuncture.net From allnutt at frontier.com Tue Sep 21 14:51:24 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:51:24 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You In-Reply-To: <28203-4C98CCE5-2407@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <28203-4C98CCE5-2407@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <5F4B50BB-5965-4D60-BE2C-53E851992377@frontier.com> When my youngest child was very young her nick name was 'pop tart' because she did 'pop' up out of bed. Thanks, I did like this one. Katie On Sep 21, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Me thinks this one Katie will like! > > Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Morning With Garfield :- > http://exclusives.250free.com/html2/garfieldtoaster.html > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 23:02:48 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:02:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Message-ID: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. Now some in government think they know what the witheld funds were used for. Does this make much sense to anyone? Don -------Original Message------- From: Larry D. Pruitt Date: 9/21/2010 10:51:04 AM To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, Subject: Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! ----- : Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! All ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!! I'm just passing this on so don't shoot the messenger! This is an added note on the "no cola increase for SS or Vet Pensions" this is where the money actually went--think about it when November comes and the election ballot is in your hand. Remember what is coming out about "Rangle" and others, don't forget! THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION DOLLARS--LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT ... SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT $ 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !! THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS And I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE ... "THIS MONEY WILL BE COMING FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING "COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 In SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them "PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS" Who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY INCREASE!!! We must put a stop to this outright thievery! It is THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, WE CAN'T FIRE THEM, BUT WE SURE CAN NOT RE-ELECT THEM, And WE CAN IMPEACH THEM Or DEMAND RECALL ELECTIONS !!! HOW ABOUT WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND DUMP THESE CLOWNS. All I ask is that you consider the suggestion here. The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. And I mean both Houses and I mean both major parties. I realize that a few Members of each House are trustworthy, But, As a group they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch To ever disgrace our Nation. In November of 2010 The entire House of Representatives will stand for re-election; All 435 of them. One third of the Senate, A total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election. Vote every incumbent out. And I mean every one of them. No matter their Party affiliation. Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 people Who have absolutely no experience in running that body, With no political favors owed to anyone but their own constituents. Let's make them understand that they work for us...They are answerable to us And they simply have to run that body with some common sense. Two years later, in 2012, Vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out. We can do the same thing in 2014 and, By that time we will have put all new people in that body as well. We, the People, Have got to take this Country back and we HAVE to do it peacefully. That's what the Framers of our Constitution envisioned. I am also suggesting term limits on the NEW BUNCH -8 YEARS FOR REPRESENTATIVES AND 12 YEARS OF SENATORS. NO EXCEPTIONS. THE LONGER THEY STAY IN OFFICE THE MORE POWER THEY GET AND THEY LOVE IT AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET RE-ELECTED. WE HAVE TERM LIMITED THE PRESIDENT - NOW LET'S TERM LIMIT THE LEGISLATORS.. Please, If you love this Country, Send this (as I have done) to absolutely everyone Whose email address appears in your address book.. This thing can permeate this Country in no time. Let's make it happen.** VOTE THE POWER ABUSERS OUT... LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK !!! IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IN OUR COUNTRY, THEN DO NOTHING ... Vote out the trash on November 2nd. In God We Trust No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3149 - Release Date: 09/20/10 23:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100921/9af736a4/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 22 07:51:34 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:51:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: "donkelly" 's message of Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:02:48 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Message-ID: <10429-4C9A17F6-737@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> DARN you Don..... I was in a good mood until you mentioned this...especially the no COLA, now I'm going to be in a real piss-ie mood all day not even with a lot of Hosstyle coffee. Sorry katie no good morning pix to day, I ain't in the mood, thanks to Don. one last thing .. anyone ever hear from Mr Obrien as of late? Oh ya..I spoke to the Judge a few days ago on the phone to see if he was still alive, and he sends his regards, but just has been to busy to check in... he has to much on his desk right now to even lurk... and no change on the rain up-date yet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100922/5947d278/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 22 08:06:40 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:06:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <10429-4C9A17F6-737@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <10429-4C9A17F6-737@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <33B0BD50-D508-40C4-B119-B5DC2DB9E32F@teleport.com> Hiya Hoss: Yep, the COLA thing is annoying, if true... has anybody researched this bit yet? Seems one way to combat this sort of legislative double-dipping would be to just to vote for any legislator who voluntarily freezes or even cuts his own wages. Locally, Chuck Riley is the only one I know of who has done this... Anyone know of any others? And Ghu knows, the way the lobbyists for Big Oil, Big Banks and Big Money are buying up legislators wholesale, they shouldn't need a public wage at all... However, excuse that, I'm just a bit grumpy this morning myself... I ain't ready for Summer to end, dammit, it's hardly started yet! WW On Sep 22, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > DARN you Don..... > I was in a good mood until you mentioned this...especially the no > COLA, > now I'm going to be in a real piss-ie mood all day not even with a lot > of Hosstyle coffee. Sorry katie no good morning pix to day, I ain't in > the mood, thanks to Don. > > one last thing .. anyone ever hear from Mr Obrien as of late? > Oh ya..I spoke to the Judge a few days ago on the phone to see if > he was > still alive, and he sends his regards, but just has been to busy to > check in... he has to much on his desk right now to even lurk... > > and no change on the rain up-date yet. > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 14:43:04 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:43:04 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: If you check the facts: Congress did not give themselves a 3% pay raise: And now there will be no pay raise for House or Senate members next year, either. The House passed H.R. 5146 by a vote of 402 to 15 on April 27, and the Senate approved the measure by unanimous consent the following day. President Obama signed the brief bill into law without ceremony on May 14. It states that there will be no "adjustment" to the pay of House or Senate members during fiscal 2011, despite the law that would otherwise provide for a cost of living adjustment in line with inflation. Also the whole part about the $24 million for electronic records is false. (And to add a note your emailer is late - this viral email is over 9 months old.) So next time your friend Larry Pruitt sends you stuff you can save yourself some time and us some time too, and not send it on. Of course it doesn't make sense to anyone because it isn't true. Electronic Medical Records for Congress? December 2, 2009 Q: Is the Social Security Administration paying $24 million to set up new electronic medical records for members of Congress? A: False. The money is going to speed processing of applications for disability benefits. Furthermore, the money is coming from the stimulus bill and not from ?withholding cost of living increases." FULL QUESTION Is this true? THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION DOLLARS? LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT? SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT : ??????????????????????????? $ 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !! ??????????????????????????? THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS and I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE???? "THIS MONEY WILL BE COME FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING " COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 in SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" FULL ANSWER Anonymous author? Check. Excessive use of capital letters? Check. Multiple exclamation marks? Check. These are just some of the classic tell-tale signs of false and misleading chain e-mails. And this one, which has been forwarded to us several times in recent weeks, is yet another case of a bogus Internet rumor. The Social Security Administration announced earlier this year that it would be funding electronic medical records. That much is true. But the author of the e-mail is wrong about whom the records are for and how they are being financed. "The only thing this e-mailer gets right is the amount," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration. "This has absolutely nothing to do with members of Congress." In August, the SSA announced the "availability of $24 million in contracts to provide the agency with electronic medical records to improve the efficiency of its disability programs." Hinkle said that the records will make the process easier for members of the public who are applying for disability benefits. The agency further explained the need for the electronic records in its August news release: SSA, Aug. 7: Social Security is seeing a significant increase in disability applications as a result of the current recession. The agency expects to receive more than 3.3 million applications in fiscal year (FY) 2010, a 27 percent increase over FY 2008. To process these applications, the agency sends more than 15 million requests for medical records to health care providers. The use of health IT will vastly improve the efficiency of this process, which currently is largely paper-bound. And the money to fund the program doesn?t come from the SSA "withholding cost of living increases," or a "$2.00 increase on all Medicare Rx benefit co-pay," as the e-mail claims that the Social Security Web site says. "Nowhere on our site does it say that," Hinkle said. "We?re not withholding anything." The SSA clearly stated in its press release that the $24 million in "contract opportunities announced today are funded through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act," which President Obama signed into law earlier this year. ETC. Katie On Sep 21, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. > > Now some in government think they know what the witheld funds were > used for. > > Does this make much sense to anyone? > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Larry D. Pruitt > Date: 9/21/2010 10:51:04 AM > To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, > Subject: Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > > > > > > > ----- > : Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > > All ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!! > > > > > I'm just passing this on so don't shoot the messenger! > > > This is an added note on the "no cola increase for SS or Vet > Pensions" this > is where the money actually went--think about it when November > comes and the > election ballot is in your hand. > > Remember what is coming out about "Rangle" and others, don't forget! > > > > > THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! > > THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION > DOLLARS--LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT ... SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT $ > 24,000,000.00 > DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR > CONGRESSMEN > AND SENATORS !! > > THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS > And > I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE ... > > "THIS MONEY WILL BE COMING FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED > FROM WITHHOLDING "COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 > In SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY > AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" > > > Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them > "PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS" > Who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY > INCREASE!!! > > We must put a stop to this outright thievery! > It is THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, > WE CAN'T > FIRE THEM, BUT WE SURE CAN NOT RE-ELECT THEM, > And WE CAN IMPEACH THEM Or DEMAND RECALL ELECTIONS !!! > HOW ABOUT WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND DUMP THESE CLOWNS. > > All I ask is that you consider the suggestion here. > > The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. > And I mean both Houses and I mean both major parties. > I realize that a few Members of each House are trustworthy, > But, > As a group they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch To ever > disgrace our > Nation. > In November of 2010 The entire House of Representatives will stand for > re-election; > All 435 of them. > One third of the Senate, > A total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election. > Vote every incumbent out. > And I mean every one of them. > No matter their Party affiliation. > Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 > people Who > have absolutely no experience in running that body, With no > political favors > owed to anyone but their own constituents. > Let's make them understand that they work for us...They are > answerable to > us > And they simply have to run that body with some common sense. > Two years later, in 2012, > Vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out. > We can do the same thing in 2014 and, > By that time we will have put all new people in that body as well. > > We, the People, Have got to take this Country back and we HAVE to > do it > peacefully. > That's what the Framers of our Constitution envisioned. > > I am also suggesting term limits on the NEW BUNCH -8 YEARS FOR > REPRESENTATIVES AND 12 YEARS OF SENATORS. > NO EXCEPTIONS. > THE LONGER THEY STAY IN OFFICE THE MORE POWER THEY GET > AND THEY LOVE IT AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET RE-ELECTED. > > WE HAVE TERM LIMITED THE PRESIDENT - > NOW LET'S TERM LIMIT THE LEGISLATORS.. > > Please, > If you love this Country, > Send this (as I have done) to absolutely everyone > Whose email address appears in your address book.. > This thing can permeate this Country in no time. > Let's make it happen.** > > VOTE THE POWER ABUSERS OUT... > LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK !!! > > IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IN OUR COUNTRY, > THEN DO NOTHING ... > > Vote out the trash on November 2nd. > > In God We Trust > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3149 - Release Date: > 09/20/10 > 23:34:00 > > ________________________________ > _______________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Wed Sep 22 15:41:13 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:41:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. First, 2011 COLA hasn't been determined yet, nor can it (more on that below). Second, COLA wasn't withheld. COLA wasn't awarded because of the way COLA is calculated. There simply wasn't adequate cost of living increase to warrant any COLA being awarded. As for the email you forwarded -- it's pure nonsense. "Q. Why is there no COLA for 2010? A. By law, Social Security and Supplemental Security Income benefits increase automatically each year if there is an increase in the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W), from the third quarter of the last year to the corresponding period of the current year. This year there was no increase in the CPI-W from the third quarter of 2008 to the third quarter of 2009." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q3 Before you get in a tizzy about the law, it was passed in 1972. "Q. How long has Social Security had COLAs? A. Congress enacted the COLA provision as part of the 1972 Social Security Amendments, and automatic annual COLAs began in 1975. Before that, benefits were increased only when Congress enacted special legislation. " http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q7 More here: http://www.liepie.com/grannys-entire-collection-of-lie-pies/213-social-security-cola-a-congress-electronic-medical-records http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/electronic-medical-records-for-congress/ Jeff From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 22 15:54:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:54:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> Thanks, Katie! WW On Sep 22, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > If you check the facts: > Congress did not give themselves a 3% pay raise: > > And now there will be no pay raise for House or Senate members next > year, either. The House passed H.R. 5146 by a vote of 402 to 15 on > April 27, and the Senate approved the measure by unanimous consent > the following day. President Obama signed the brief bill into law > without ceremony on May 14. It states that there will be no > "adjustment" to the pay of House or Senate members during fiscal > 2011, despite the law that would otherwise provide for a cost of > living adjustment in line with inflation. > > > > Also the whole part about the $24 million for electronic records is > false. (And to add a note your emailer is late - this viral email is > over 9 months old.) So next time your friend Larry Pruitt sends you > stuff you can save yourself some time and us some time too, and not > send it on. Of course it doesn't make sense to anyone because it > isn't true. > > Electronic Medical Records for Congress? > > December 2, 2009 > > > Q: Is the Social Security Administration paying $24 million to set up > new electronic medical records for members of Congress? > A: False. The money is going to speed processing of applications for > disability benefits. Furthermore, the money is coming from the > stimulus bill and not from ?withholding cost of living increases." > > FULL QUESTION > Is this true? > THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION > DOLLARS? LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT? SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT : > ??????????????????????????? > $ 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW > ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING > FOR OUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !! > ??????????????????????????? > THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS and I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL > SECURITY WEBSITE???? "THIS MONEY WILL BE COME FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE > GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING " COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 > in SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON > ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" > FULL ANSWER > Anonymous author? Check. Excessive use of capital letters? Check. > Multiple exclamation marks? Check. These are just some of the classic > tell-tale signs of false and misleading chain e-mails. And this one, > which has been forwarded to us several times in recent weeks, is yet > another case of a bogus Internet rumor. > The Social Security Administration announced earlier this year that > it would be funding electronic medical records. That much is true. > But the author of the e-mail is wrong about whom the records are for > and how they are being financed. "The only thing this e-mailer gets > right is the amount," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for the Social > Security Administration. "This has absolutely nothing to do with > members of Congress." > In August, the SSA announced the "availability of $24 million in > contracts to provide the agency with electronic medical records to > improve the efficiency of its disability programs." Hinkle said that > the records will make the process easier for members of the public > who are applying for disability benefits. The agency further > explained the need for the electronic records in its August news > release: > SSA, Aug. 7: Social Security is seeing a significant increase in > disability applications as a result of the current recession. The > agency expects to receive more than 3.3 million applications in > fiscal year (FY) 2010, a 27 percent increase over FY 2008. To process > these applications, the agency sends more than 15 million requests > for medical records to health care providers. The use of health IT > will vastly improve the efficiency of this process, which currently > is largely paper-bound. > And the money to fund the program doesn?t come from the SSA > "withholding cost of living increases," or a "$2.00 increase on all > Medicare Rx benefit co-pay," as the e-mail claims that the Social > Security Web site says. "Nowhere on our site does it say that," > Hinkle said. "We?re not withholding anything." The SSA clearly stated > in its press release that the $24 million in "contract opportunities > announced today are funded through the American Recovery and > Reinvestment Act," which President Obama signed into law earlier this > year. > > ETC. > > Katie > > > On Sep 21, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. >> >> Now some in government think they know what the witheld funds were >> used for. >> >> Does this make much sense to anyone? >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Larry D. Pruitt >> Date: 9/21/2010 10:51:04 AM >> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, >> Subject: Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> : Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >> >> >> All ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!! >> >> >> >> >> I'm just passing this on so don't shoot the messenger! >> >> >> This is an added note on the "no cola increase for SS or Vet >> Pensions" this >> is where the money actually went--think about it when November >> comes and the >> election ballot is in your hand. >> >> Remember what is coming out about "Rangle" and others, don't forget! >> >> >> >> >> THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! >> >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION >> DOLLARS--LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT ... SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT $ >> 24,000,000.00 >> DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR >> CONGRESSMEN >> AND SENATORS !! >> >> THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS >> And >> I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE ... >> >> "THIS MONEY WILL BE COMING FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED >> FROM WITHHOLDING "COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 >> In SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY >> AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" >> >> >> Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them >> "PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS" >> Who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY >> INCREASE!!! >> >> We must put a stop to this outright thievery! >> It is THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, >> WE CAN'T >> FIRE THEM, BUT WE SURE CAN NOT RE-ELECT THEM, >> And WE CAN IMPEACH THEM Or DEMAND RECALL ELECTIONS !!! >> HOW ABOUT WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND DUMP THESE CLOWNS. >> >> All I ask is that you consider the suggestion here. >> >> The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. >> And I mean both Houses and I mean both major parties. >> I realize that a few Members of each House are trustworthy, >> But, >> As a group they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch To ever >> disgrace our >> Nation. >> In November of 2010 The entire House of Representatives will stand >> for >> re-election; >> All 435 of them. >> One third of the Senate, >> A total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election. >> Vote every incumbent out. >> And I mean every one of them. >> No matter their Party affiliation. >> Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 >> people Who >> have absolutely no experience in running that body, With no >> political favors >> owed to anyone but their own constituents. >> Let's make them understand that they work for us...They are >> answerable to >> us >> And they simply have to run that body with some common sense. >> Two years later, in 2012, >> Vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out. >> We can do the same thing in 2014 and, >> By that time we will have put all new people in that body as well. >> >> We, the People, Have got to take this Country back and we HAVE to >> do it >> peacefully. >> That's what the Framers of our Constitution envisioned. >> >> I am also suggesting term limits on the NEW BUNCH -8 YEARS FOR >> REPRESENTATIVES AND 12 YEARS OF SENATORS. >> NO EXCEPTIONS. >> THE LONGER THEY STAY IN OFFICE THE MORE POWER THEY GET >> AND THEY LOVE IT AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET RE-ELECTED. >> >> WE HAVE TERM LIMITED THE PRESIDENT - >> NOW LET'S TERM LIMIT THE LEGISLATORS.. >> >> Please, >> If you love this Country, >> Send this (as I have done) to absolutely everyone >> Whose email address appears in your address book.. >> This thing can permeate this Country in no time. >> Let's make it happen.** >> >> VOTE THE POWER ABUSERS OUT... >> LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK !!! >> >> IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IN OUR COUNTRY, >> THEN DO NOTHING ... >> >> Vote out the trash on November 2nd. >> >> In God We Trust >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3149 - Release Date: >> 09/20/10 >> 23:34:00 >> >> _______________________________ >> _ >> _______________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Wed Sep 22 16:41:54 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:41:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: ?I'm not sure this will appease them. I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's a word) Ed From: Jeff Howden Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Don, > From: donkelly > > We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. First, 2011 COLA hasn't been determined yet, nor can it (more on that below). Second, COLA wasn't withheld. COLA wasn't awarded because of the way COLA is calculated. There simply wasn't adequate cost of living increase to warrant any COLA being awarded. As for the email you forwarded -- it's pure nonsense. "Q. Why is there no COLA for 2010? A. By law, Social Security and Supplemental Security Income benefits increase automatically each year if there is an increase in the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W), from the third quarter of the last year to the corresponding period of the current year. This year there was no increase in the CPI-W from the third quarter of 2008 to the third quarter of 2009." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q3 Before you get in a tizzy about the law, it was passed in 1972. "Q. How long has Social Security had COLAs? A. Congress enacted the COLA provision as part of the 1972 Social Security Amendments, and automatic annual COLAs began in 1975. Before that, benefits were increased only when Congress enacted special legislation. " http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q7 More here: http://www.liepie.com/grannys-entire-collection-of-lie-pies/213-social-security-cola-a-congress-electronic-medical-records http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/electronic-medical-records-for-congress/ Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 22 21:00:47 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:00:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: ad Infiniti-- good one, Ed! How many of us can afford to drive one of those? If we could, surely we could afford to spend a little more for the insurance. WW On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > I'm not sure this will appease them. > I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't > include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. > Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's > a word) > Ed > > > > From: Jeff Howden > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 3:41 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. > > First, 2011 COLA hasn't been determined yet, nor can it (more on > that below). > > Second, COLA wasn't withheld. COLA wasn't awarded because of the > way COLA is calculated. There simply wasn't adequate cost of > living increase to warrant any COLA being awarded. As for the > email you forwarded -- it's pure nonsense. > > "Q. Why is there no COLA for 2010? > > A. By law, Social Security and Supplemental > Security Income benefits increase automatically > each year if there is an increase in the Bureau > of Labor Statistics? Consumer Price Index for > Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W), > from the third quarter of the last year to the > corresponding period of the current year. This > year there was no increase in the CPI-W from > the third quarter of 2008 to the third quarter > of 2009." > > http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q3 > > Before you get in a tizzy about the law, it was passed in 1972. > > "Q. How long has Social Security had COLAs? > > A. Congress enacted the COLA provision as part > of the 1972 Social Security Amendments, and > automatic annual COLAs began in 1975. Before > that, benefits were increased only when > Congress enacted special legislation. " > > http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q7 > > More here: > > http://www.liepie.com/grannys-entire-collection-of-lie-pies/213- > social-security-cola-a-congress-electronic-medical-records > > http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/electronic-medical-records-for- > congress/ > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 21:42:03 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:42:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: <52A3C0BD-67E3-4E34-B025-70C9B03293D7@frontier.com> Lexus have some Accord on this topic. David On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > ad Infiniti-- good one, Ed! > How many of us can afford to drive one of those? > If we could, surely we could afford to spend a little more for the > insurance. > WW > On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > >> I'm not sure this will appease them. >> I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't >> include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. >> Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's >> a word) >> Ed From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 22 21:55:48 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:55:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <52A3C0BD-67E3-4E34-B025-70C9B03293D7@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <52A3C0BD-67E3-4E34-B025-70C9B03293D7@frontier.com> Message-ID: True, we can't Dodge the Isuzu any longer. On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:42 PM, David Morelli wrote: > Lexus have some Accord on this topic. > > David > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> ad Infiniti-- good one, Ed! >> How many of us can afford to drive one of those? >> If we could, surely we could afford to spend a little more for the >> insurance. >> WW >> On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure this will appease them. >>> I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't >>> include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. >>> Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's >>> a word) >>> Ed > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 21:58:33 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:58:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <52A3C0BD-67E3-4E34-B025-70C9B03293D7@frontier.com> Message-ID: <52C33977-0FC4-416F-BF4B-C8134391B727@frontier.com> Nothing can hold back you Chargers! On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > True, we can't Dodge the Isuzu any longer. > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:42 PM, David Morelli wrote: > >> Lexus have some Accord on this topic. >> >> David >> >> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >> >>> ad Infiniti-- good one, Ed! >>> How many of us can afford to drive one of those? >>> If we could, surely we could afford to spend a little more for the >>> insurance. >>> WW >>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure this will appease them. >>>> I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't >>>> include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. >>>> Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's >>>> a word) >>>> Ed >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 22:02:40 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:02:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <52C33977-0FC4-416F-BF4B-C8134391B727@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <52A3C0BD-67E3-4E34-B025-70C9B03293D7@frontier.com> <52C33977-0FC4-416F-BF4B-C8134391B727@frontier.com> Message-ID: <468E5B72-EFA5-4E5D-BA98-9C3C595652E4@frontier.com> We will Ford that river when we reach it. On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Nothing can hold back you Chargers! > > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> True, we can't Dodge the Isuzu any longer. >> >> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:42 PM, David Morelli wrote: >> >>> Lexus have some Accord on this topic. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: >>> >>>> ad Infiniti-- good one, Ed! >>>> How many of us can afford to drive one of those? >>>> If we could, surely we could afford to spend a little more for the >>>> insurance. >>>> WW >>>> On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure this will appease them. >>>>> I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't >>>>> include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. >>>>> Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's >>>>> a word) >>>>> Ed >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 22:14:07 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:14:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: <4F9CF1E6-79C0-4A4B-BB60-61E3003374D0@frontier.com> Ed, I agree with you. The CPI should more accurately reflect the lives of those it impacts. And the economy in general should not be so highly monitored based merely on the GDP either. Unemployment rates and average wages should be major components of the economic indicators, not just by lines in the news cycle. Katie On Sep 22, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > I'm not sure this will appease them. > I'm not sure it appeases me since the so called CPI-W doesn't > include a number of things that we find ourselves forced to pay. > Like health insurance, auto insurance etc. ad Infiniti. (if that's > a word) > Ed > > > > From: Jeff Howden > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 3:41 PM > To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. > > First, 2011 COLA hasn't been determined yet, nor can it (more on > that below). > > Second, COLA wasn't withheld. COLA wasn't awarded because of the > way COLA is calculated. There simply wasn't adequate cost of > living increase to warrant any COLA being awarded. As for the > email you forwarded -- it's pure nonsense. > > "Q. Why is there no COLA for 2010? > > A. By law, Social Security and Supplemental > Security Income benefits increase automatically > each year if there is an increase in the Bureau > of Labor Statistics? Consumer Price Index for > Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W), > from the third quarter of the last year to the > corresponding period of the current year. This > year there was no increase in the CPI-W from > the third quarter of 2008 to the third quarter > of 2009." > > http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q3 > > Before you get in a tizzy about the law, it was passed in 1972. > > "Q. How long has Social Security had COLAs? > > A. Congress enacted the COLA provision as part > of the 1972 Social Security Amendments, and > automatic annual COLAs began in 1975. Before > that, benefits were increased only when > Congress enacted special legislation. " > > http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q7 > > More here: > > http://www.liepie.com/grannys-entire-collection-of-lie-pies/213- > social-security-cola-a-congress-electronic-medical-records > > http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/electronic-medical-records-for- > congress/ > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 22:18:26 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:18:26 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. But I still question part. Are you suggesting they with held our cola for two years to produce no financial benefit to them? Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance something they wanted for themselves? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 9/22/2010 3:54:01 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Thanks, Katie! WW On Sep 22, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > If you check the facts: > Congress did not give themselves a 3% pay raise: > > And now there will be no pay raise for House or Senate members next > year, either. The House passed H.R. 5146 by a vote of 402 to 15 on > April 27, and the Senate approved the measure by unanimous consent > the following day. President Obama signed the brief bill into law > without ceremony on May 14. It states that there will be no > "adjustment" to the pay of House or Senate members during fiscal > 2011, despite the law that would otherwise provide for a cost of > living adjustment in line with inflation. > > > > Also the whole part about the $24 million for electronic records is > false. (And to add a note your emailer is late - this viral email is > over 9 months old.) So next time your friend Larry Pruitt sends you > stuff you can save yourself some time and us some time too, and not > send it on. Of course it doesn't make sense to anyone because it > isn't true. > > Electronic Medical Records for Congress? > > December 2, 2009 > > > Q: Is the Social Security Administration paying $24 million to set up > new electronic medical records for members of Congress? > A: False. The money is going to speed processing of applications for > disability benefits. Furthermore, the money is coming from the > stimulus bill and not from ?withholding cost of living increases." > > FULL QUESTION > Is this true? > THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION > DOLLARS? LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT : > ??????????????????????????? > $ 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW > ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING > FOR OUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !! > ??????????????????????????? > THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS and I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL > SECURITY WEBSITE "THIS MONEY WILL BE COME FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE > GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING " COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 > in SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON > ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" > FULL ANSWER > Anonymous author? Check. Excessive use of capital letters? Check. > Multiple exclamation marks? Check. These are just some of the classic > tell-tale signs of false and misleading chain e-mails. And this one, > which has been forwarded to us several times in recent weeks, is yet > another case of a bogus Internet rumor. > The Social Security Administration announced earlier this year that > it would be funding electronic medical records. That much is true. > But the author of the e-mail is wrong about whom the records are for > and how they are being financed. "The only thing this e-mailer gets > right is the amount," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for the Social > Security Administration. "This has absolutely nothing to do with > members of Congress." > In August, the SSA announced the "availability of $24 million in > contracts to provide the agency with electronic medical records to > improve the efficiency of its disability programs." Hinkle said that > the records will make the process easier for members of the public > who are applying for disability benefits. The agency further > explained the need for the electronic records in its August news > release: > SSA, Aug. 7: Social Security is seeing a significant increase in > disability applications as a result of the current recession. The > agency expects to receive more than 3.3 million applications in > fiscal year (FY) 2010, a 27 percent increase over FY 2008. To process > these applications, the agency sends more than 15 million requests > for medical records to health care providers. The use of health IT > will vastly improve the efficiency of this process, which currently > is largely paper-bound. > And the money to fund the program doesn?t come from the SSA > "withholding cost of living increases," or a "$2.00 increase on all > Medicare Rx benefit co-pay," as the e-mail claims that the Social > Security Web site says. "Nowhere on our site does it say that," > Hinkle said. "We?re not withholding anything." The SSA clearly stated > in its press release that the $24 million in "contract opportunities > announced today are funded through the American Recovery and > Reinvestment Act," which President Obama signed into law earlier this > year. > > ETC. > > Katie > > > On Sep 21, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. >> >> Now some in government think they know what the witheld funds were >> used for. >> >> Does this make much sense to anyone? >> >> Don >> >> >> >> >> -------Original Message------- >> >> From: Larry D. Pruitt >> Date: 9/21/2010 10:51:04 AM >> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, >> Subject: Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> : Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >> >> >> All ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!! >> >> >> >> >> I'm just passing this on so don't shoot the messenger! >> >> >> This is an added note on the "no cola increase for SS or Vet >> Pensions" this >> is where the money actually went--think about it when November >> comes and the >> election ballot is in your hand. >> >> Remember what is coming out about "Rangle" and others, don't forget! >> >> >> >> >> THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! >> >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION >> DOLLARS--LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT ... SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT $ >> 24,000,000.00 >> DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR >> CONGRESSMEN >> AND SENATORS !! >> >> THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS >> And >> I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE ... >> >> "THIS MONEY WILL BE COMING FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED >> FROM WITHHOLDING "COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 >> In SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY >> AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" >> >> >> Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them >> "PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS" >> Who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY >> INCREASE!!! >> >> We must put a stop to this outright thievery! >> It is THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, >> WE CAN'T >> FIRE THEM, BUT WE SURE CAN NOT RE-ELECT THEM, >> And WE CAN IMPEACH THEM Or DEMAND RECALL ELECTIONS !!! >> HOW ABOUT WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND DUMP THESE CLOWNS. >> >> All I ask is that you consider the suggestion here. >> >> The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. >> And I mean both Houses and I mean both major parties. >> I realize that a few Members of each House are trustworthy, >> But, >> As a group they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch To ever >> disgrace our >> Nation. >> In November of 2010 The entire House of Representatives will stand >> for >> re-election; >> All 435 of them. >> One third of the Senate, >> A total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election. >> Vote every incumbent out. >> And I mean every one of them. >> No matter their Party affiliation. >> Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 >> people Who >> have absolutely no experience in running that body, With no >> political favors >> owed to anyone but their own constituents. >> Let's make them understand that they work for us...They are >> answerable to >> us >> And they simply have to run that body with some common sense. >> Two years later, in 2012, >> Vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out. >> We can do the same thing in 2014 and, >> By that time we will have put all new people in that body as well. >> >> We, the People, Have got to take this Country back and we HAVE to >> do it >> peacefully. >> That's what the Framers of our Constitution envisioned. >> >> I am also suggesting term limits on the NEW BUNCH -8 YEARS FOR >> REPRESENTATIVES AND 12 YEARS OF SENATORS. >> NO EXCEPTIONS. >> THE LONGER THEY STAY IN OFFICE THE MORE POWER THEY GET >> AND THEY LOVE IT AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET RE-ELECTED. >> >> WE HAVE TERM LIMITED THE PRESIDENT - >> NOW LET'S TERM LIMIT THE LEGISLATORS.. >> >> Please, >> If you love this Country, >> Send this (as I have done) to absolutely everyone >> Whose email address appears in your address book.. >> This thing can permeate this Country in no time. >> Let's make it happen.** >> >> VOTE THE POWER ABUSERS OUT... >> LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK !!! >> >> IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IN OUR COUNTRY, >> THEN DO NOTHING ... >> >> Vote out the trash on November 2nd. >> >> In God We Trust >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3149 - Release Date: >> 09/20/10 >> 23:34:00 >> >> _______________________________ >> _ >> _______________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100922/72eee234/attachment.gif From jo.david at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 22:21:48 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:21:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4F9CF1E6-79C0-4A4B-BB60-61E3003374D0@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4F9CF1E6-79C0-4A4B-BB60-61E3003374D0@frontier.com> Message-ID: <9EDD3E6F-0CD0-4E4C-925A-D5662075FAF8@frontier.com> The decision of what to include in the determination of CPI is a matter of personal opinion. The people who actually make the decision are just codifying their opinions, however well versed those opinions may be. On a related issue, I am hearing that the recession has ended. ??!! Obviously, the people who are making that assessment are employed. If they were unemployed, they would have something that is more realistic. David On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Ed, > I agree with you. The CPI should more accurately reflect the lives of those it impacts. And the economy in general should not be so highly monitored based merely on the GDP either. Unemployment rates and average wages should be major components of the economic indicators, not just by lines in the news cycle. > > Katie From jo.david at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 22:26:57 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:26:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <53850F50-9CDB-4870-81FB-00909780CB77@frontier.com> No. The COLA was held because it wasn't justified. And since the money not spent, will not add to the national deficit. The Tea Party should appreciate that the government was "cutting the fat" from the Social Security budget. David On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. > > But I still question part. > > Are you suggesting they with held our cola for two years to produce no financial benefit to them? > > Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance something they wanted for themselves? > > Don From allnutt at frontier.com Wed Sep 22 22:35:30 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:35:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <9EDD3E6F-0CD0-4E4C-925A-D5662075FAF8@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4F9CF1E6-79C0-4A4B-BB60-61E3003374D0@frontier.com> <9EDD3E6F-0CD0-4E4C-925A-D5662075FAF8@frontier.com> Message-ID: Recession is merely a technical measurement of the GDP. If it declines for two consecutive quarters then that is technically a recession. (This one started in late '07). So you don't really know when it started until after the two quarters are over. They technically are 'over' when there is an equivalent number of quarters where GDP rises. So technically this one was over last year sometime. But since the unemployment rate isn't in the 'definition', it doesn't get calculated in. And of course you could have a situation where GDP drops a lot on quarter, then goes up a bit the next quarter, then drops a lot, rises a bit, repeat a few times and you are never technically in a recession. But it still hurts. The definition of the recession being over was only true for those at the top. Our recovery hasn't trickled down to us yet. Katie On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:21 PM, David Morelli wrote: > The decision of what to include in the determination of CPI is a > matter of personal opinion. The people who actually make the > decision are just codifying their opinions, however well versed > those opinions may be. > > On a related issue, I am hearing that the recession has ended. ??!! > > Obviously, the people who are making that assessment are employed. > If they were unemployed, they would have something that is more > realistic. > > David > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Ed, >> I agree with you. The CPI should more accurately reflect the >> lives of those it impacts. And the economy in general should not >> be so highly monitored based merely on the GDP either. >> Unemployment rates and average wages should be major components of >> the economic indicators, not just by lines in the news cycle. >> >> Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 22 22:42:07 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:42:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <259AD0AB-3275-4F5C-8F7F-19DE4943DFEC@teleport.com> T'wasn't me, Don. Not to be crass, but I'm generally not even botehring to check on such stuff anymore. It seems to be ancient spam all too often. WW On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. > > But I still question part. > > Are you suggesting they with held our cola for two years to produce no > financial benefit to them? > > Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance something they > wanted for > themselves? > > Don > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/22/2010 3:54:01 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > Thanks, Katie! > WW > On Sep 22, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> If you check the facts: >> Congress did not give themselves a 3% pay raise: >> >> And now there will be no pay raise for House or Senate members next >> year, either. The House passed H.R. 5146 by a vote of 402 to 15 on >> April 27, and the Senate approved the measure by unanimous consent >> the following day. President Obama signed the brief bill into law >> without ceremony on May 14. It states that there will be no >> "adjustment" to the pay of House or Senate members during fiscal >> 2011, despite the law that would otherwise provide for a cost of >> living adjustment in line with inflation. >> >> >> >> Also the whole part about the $24 million for electronic records is >> false. (And to add a note your emailer is late - this viral email is >> over 9 months old.) So next time your friend Larry Pruitt sends you >> stuff you can save yourself some time and us some time too, and not >> send it on. Of course it doesn't make sense to anyone because it >> isn't true. >> >> Electronic Medical Records for Congress? >> >> December 2, 2009 >> >> >> Q: Is the Social Security Administration paying $24 million to set up >> new electronic medical records for members of Congress? >> A: False. The money is going to speed processing of applications for >> disability benefits. Furthermore, the money is coming from the >> stimulus bill and not from ?withholding cost of living increases." >> >> FULL QUESTION >> Is this true? >> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION >> DOLLARS? LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT? SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT : >> ??????????????????????????? >> $ 24,000,000.00 DOLLARS FOR NEW >> ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING >> FOR OUR CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS !! >> ??????????????????????????? >> THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS and I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL >> SECURITY WEBSITE???? "THIS MONEY WILL BE COME FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE >> GENERATED FROM WITHHOLDING " COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 >> in SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON >> ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" >> FULL ANSWER >> Anonymous author? Check. Excessive use of capital letters? Check. >> Multiple exclamation marks? Check. These are just some of the classic >> tell-tale signs of false and misleading chain e-mails. And this one, >> which has been forwarded to us several times in recent weeks, is yet >> another case of a bogus Internet rumor. >> The Social Security Administration announced earlier this year that >> it would be funding electronic medical records. That much is true. >> But the author of the e-mail is wrong about whom the records are for >> and how they are being financed. "The only thing this e-mailer gets >> right is the amount," said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for the Social >> Security Administration. "This has absolutely nothing to do with >> members of Congress." >> In August, the SSA announced the "availability of $24 million in >> contracts to provide the agency with electronic medical records to >> improve the efficiency of its disability programs." Hinkle said that >> the records will make the process easier for members of the public >> who are applying for disability benefits. The agency further >> explained the need for the electronic records in its August news >> release: >> SSA, Aug. 7: Social Security is seeing a significant increase in >> disability applications as a result of the current recession. The >> agency expects to receive more than 3.3 million applications in >> fiscal year (FY) 2010, a 27 percent increase over FY 2008. To process >> these applications, the agency sends more than 15 million requests >> for medical records to health care providers. The use of health IT >> will vastly improve the efficiency of this process, which currently >> is largely paper-bound. >> And the money to fund the program doesn?t come from the SSA >> "withholding cost of living increases," or a "$2.00 increase on all >> Medicare Rx benefit co-pay," as the e-mail claims that the Social >> Security Web site says. "Nowhere on our site does it say that," >> Hinkle said. "We?re not withholding anything." The SSA clearly stated >> in its press release that the $24 million in "contract opportunities >> announced today are funded through the American Recovery and >> Reinvestment Act," which President Obama signed into law earlier this >> year. >> >> ETC. >> >> Katie >> >> >> On Sep 21, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: >> >>> We discussed COLA witheld from our SS checks for 2010 and 2011. >>> >>> Now some in government think they know what the witheld funds were >>> used for. >>> >>> Does this make much sense to anyone? >>> >>> Don >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------Original Message------- >>> >>> From: Larry D. Pruitt >>> Date: 9/21/2010 10:51:04 AM >>> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, >>> Subject: Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> : Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! >>> >>> >>> All ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm just passing this on so don't shoot the messenger! >>> >>> >>> This is an added note on the "no cola increase for SS or Vet >>> Pensions" this >>> is where the money actually went--think about it when November >>> comes and the >>> election ballot is in your hand. >>> >>> Remember what is coming out about "Rangle" and others, don't forget! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> THIS IS THE ONE THAT WILL FLIP YOU OUT!! >>> >>> THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION IS FUNDING TWENTY FOUR MILLION >>> DOLLARS--LET ME REPEAT THAT AMOUNT ... SO YOU UNDERSTAND IT $ >>> 24,000,000.00 >>> DOLLARS FOR NEW ELECTRONIC MEDICAL RECORDS PROCESSING FOR OUR >>> CONGRESSMEN >>> AND SENATORS !! >>> >>> THEY ARE OBTAINING THESE FUNDS >>> And >>> I QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOCIAL SECURITY WEBSITE ... >>> >>> "THIS MONEY WILL BE COMING FROM THE SAVINGS TO BE GENERATED >>> FROM WITHHOLDING "COST OF LIVING INCREASES FOR 2010 & 2011 >>> In SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS FOR THE ELDERLY >>> AND A $2.00 INCREASE ON ALL MEDICARE RX BENEFIT CO-PAY" >>> >>> >>> Please pass this to ALL your friends and have them >>> "PROTEST TO THE IDIOTS WE ELECTED TO CONGRESS" >>> Who by the way, have just voted themselves ANOTHER 3% SALARY >>> INCREASE!!! >>> >>> We must put a stop to this outright thievery! >>> It is THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATS, >>> WE CAN'T >>> FIRE THEM, BUT WE SURE CAN NOT RE-ELECT THEM, >>> And WE CAN IMPEACH THEM Or DEMAND RECALL ELECTIONS !!! >>> HOW ABOUT WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND DUMP THESE CLOWNS. >>> >>> All I ask is that you consider the suggestion here. >>> >>> The entire Congress of the United States is corrupt. >>> And I mean both Houses and I mean both major parties. >>> I realize that a few Members of each House are trustworthy, >>> But, >>> As a group they are absolutely the most corrupt bunch To ever >>> disgrace our >>> Nation. >>> In November of 2010 The entire House of Representatives will stand >>> for >>> re-election; >>> All 435 of them. >>> One third of the Senate, >>> A total of 33 of them, will also stand for re-election. >>> Vote every incumbent out. >>> And I mean every one of them. >>> No matter their Party affiliation. >>> Let's start all over in the House of Representatives with 435 >>> people Who >>> have absolutely no experience in running that body, With no >>> political favors >>> owed to anyone but their own constituents. >>> Let's make them understand that they work for us...They are >>> answerable to >>> us >>> And they simply have to run that body with some common sense. >>> Two years later, in 2012, >>> Vote the next third of the incumbents in the Senate out. >>> We can do the same thing in 2014 and, >>> By that time we will have put all new people in that body as well. >>> >>> We, the People, Have got to take this Country back and we HAVE to >>> do it >>> peacefully. >>> That's what the Framers of our Constitution envisioned. >>> >>> I am also suggesting term limits on the NEW BUNCH -8 YEARS FOR >>> REPRESENTATIVES AND 12 YEARS OF SENATORS. >>> NO EXCEPTIONS. >>> THE LONGER THEY STAY IN OFFICE THE MORE POWER THEY GET >>> AND THEY LOVE IT AND WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET RE-ELECTED. >>> >>> WE HAVE TERM LIMITED THE PRESIDENT - >>> NOW LET'S TERM LIMIT THE LEGISLATORS.. >>> >>> Please, >>> If you love this Country, >>> Send this (as I have done) to absolutely everyone >>> Whose email address appears in your address book.. >>> This thing can permeate this Country in no time. >>> Let's make it happen.** >>> >>> VOTE THE POWER ABUSERS OUT... >>> LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK !!! >>> >>> IF YOU LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IN OUR COUNTRY, >>> THEN DO NOTHING ... >>> >>> Vote out the trash on November 2nd. >>> >>> In God We Trust >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3149 - Release Date: >>> 09/20/10 >>> 23:34:00 >>> >>> ______________________________ >>> _ >>> _ >>> _______________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Sep 23 07:29:16 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 07:29:16 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. And Katie and I checked out more thoroughly than you or Walt did combined (no offense meant, Walt, as I've already read your admission of bypassing the "checking it out" phase). > But I still question part. Why? What's to question? > Are you suggesting they with held our cola for > two years to produce no financial benefit to > them? No, they "withheld" a COLA because it was not justified based on the specified economic indicators used to calculate COLA for an upcoming year. > Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance > something they wanted for themselves? No, see answer to previous question. Jeff From ejbaeza at mac.com Thu Sep 23 08:20:46 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (E. J. Baeza) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:20:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <53850F50-9CDB-4870-81FB-00909780CB77@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <53850F50-9CDB-4870-81FB-00909780CB77@frontier.com> Message-ID: <0FA865D3-20C5-490E-A5AA-016BE1B71766@mac.com> Just my 2 cents on SS in general. I recently listened to an interview with the director of SS on OPB radio. He said that the SS trust fund has been incorrectly dragged into the national debt and deficit discussion. The SS trust fund is a stand alone, fully funded program. It totally pays for itself and does not contribute 1 dime to the national debt and deficit. To include the SS trust fund in such an analysis of the deficit would be like using your 401K or IRA or retirement fund to assess your monthly or annual household's cash flow. If one is spending more than they earn on a monthly basis, they cannot dip into their 401K or IRA to cover their bills. Certainly we must make some adjustments to the SS program in order to keep in solvent in the long run, but the trust fund is fully funded at least until 2030 and that is a conservative estimate according to the SS director. The SS trust fund cannot be used to cover non-SS expenditures. E. J. On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > No. The COLA was held because it wasn't justified. > > And since the money not spent, will not add to the national deficit. > > The Tea Party should appreciate that the government was "cutting the fat" from the Social Security budget. > > David > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. >> >> But I still question part. >> >> Are you suggesting they with held our cola for two years to produce no financial benefit to them? >> >> Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance something they wanted for themselves? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Sep 23 08:25:12 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:25:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <0FA865D3-20C5-490E-A5AA-016BE1B71766@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <53850F50-9CDB-4870-81FB-00909780CB77@frontier.com> <0FA865D3-20C5-490E-A5AA-016BE1B71766@mac.com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E48B84AE@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thanks, EJ, for bringing out the facts...inconvenient though they may be for some folks. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of E. J. Baeza Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 8:21 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Just my 2 cents on SS in general. I recently listened to an interview with the director of SS on OPB radio. He said that the SS trust fund has been incorrectly dragged into the national debt and deficit discussion. The SS trust fund is a stand alone, fully funded program. It totally pays for itself and does not contribute 1 dime to the national debt and deficit. To include the SS trust fund in such an analysis of the deficit would be like using your 401K or IRA or retirement fund to assess your monthly or annual household's cash flow. If one is spending more than they earn on a monthly basis, they cannot dip into their 401K or IRA to cover their bills. Certainly we must make some adjustments to the SS program in order to keep in solvent in the long run, but the trust fund is fully funded at least until 2030 and that is a conservative estimate according to the SS director. The SS trust fund cannot be used to cover non-SS expenditures. E. J. On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:26 PM, David Morelli wrote: > No. The COLA was held because it wasn't justified. > > And since the money not spent, will not add to the national deficit. > > The Tea Party should appreciate that the government was "cutting the fat" from the Social Security budget. > > David > > On Sep 22, 2010, at 10:18 PM, donkelly wrote: > >> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. >> >> But I still question part. >> >> Are you suggesting they with held our cola for two years to produce no financial benefit to them? >> >> Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance something they wanted for themselves? >> >> Don > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 08:33:16 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] Brown Bag at Pacific Tues. Sept 28, Noon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <175622.84044.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Pacific University 's Center for Gender Equity announces the first of its 2010 Brown Bag panel discussions: Women on the Chopping Block: PETA vs. the Meat Industry Does PETA objectify and exploit women for its own cause? Is the meat industry guilty of the same crime? How did women end up on the chopping block? Tuesday, September 28th Noon to 1pm? | UC Fireside Lounge Free and open to the public. Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa ? From waltw at teleport.com Thu Sep 23 08:45:05 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:45:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> Message-ID: <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> Yep, and yep... Although the Tea Party types might ask, what right have we got to a COLA anyhow? Or Social Security, for that matter? After all, if we live too long and inflation rises too fast, we use up what we paid into the system, so our COLA and future SS payments come from (gasp) the money TAKEN from the wages of the heroic American worker! (Note to the grimly serious? this is meant as gentle satire. This is my busy day, so I don't want to start any furore). WW On Sep 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. > > And Katie and I checked out more thoroughly than you or Walt did > combined > (no offense meant, Walt, as I've already read your admission of > bypassing > the "checking it out" phase). > >> But I still question part. > > Why? What's to question? > >> Are you suggesting they with held our cola for >> two years to produce no financial benefit to >> them? > > No, they "withheld" a COLA because it was not justified based on the > specified economic indicators used to calculate COLA for an > upcoming year. > >> Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance >> something they wanted for themselves? > > No, see answer to previous question. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Thu Sep 23 09:20:18 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 09:20:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:00:47 -0700 Message-ID: <20747-4C9B7E42-4@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> well.... I guess an OleHoss is going to have to find a part time job. Anyone need Trees around their homes either trimmed or pruned, or completely take out? Also general yard work anything else that need to be taken care of? to? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100923/6dff9dbe/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 11:37:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:37:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> Don't always agree, but personal opinions always, ALWAYS, taken well Walt. But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? If anyone believes that the congress people who proposed keeping the COLA did not themselves benefit in some manner, I have a bridge for sale....good location. If anyone believes, as I do, that Social Security will go broke as it is, how long will what we paid in last after the government adds 20 million mostly illegals, who never paid in a dime into SS, are thrown into the SS System, free of charge? And if the government had not raided the SS fund for money to support their, THEIR, agenda, would not the untapped SS funds be earning interest somewhere by interest I speak not of the interest of the greedy eyes of politicians whom just cannot find enough money to support their personal interests and party agenda? How much gold is there in Fort Knox as we speak? The government will not answer that question. So where is the gold? Finally, Union-label Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has hatched a plan to ram the speech-killing "Disclose Act" through the Senate TODAY. I would love it if someone could reliably tell me this is not true. Oh yes, I am in a good and respectful mood today, just seeking answers. Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 9/23/2010 8:45:10 AM To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Yep, and yep... Although the Tea Party types might ask, what right have we got to a COLA anyhow? Or Social Security, for that matter? After all, if we live too long and inflation rises too fast, we use up what we paid into the system, so our COLA and future SS payments come from (gasp) the money TAKEN from the wages of the heroic American worker! (Note to the grimly serious? this is meant as gentle satire. This is my busy day, so I don't want to start any furore). WW On Sep 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > Don, > >> From: donkelly >> >> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. > > And Katie and I checked out more thoroughly than you or Walt did > combined > (no offense meant, Walt, as I've already read your admission of > bypassing > the "checking it out" phase). > >> But I still question part. > > Why? What's to question? > >> Are you suggesting they with held our cola for >> two years to produce no financial benefit to >> them? > > No, they "withheld" a COLA because it was not justified based on the > specified economic indicators used to calculate COLA for an > upcoming year. > >> Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance >> something they wanted for themselves? > > No, see answer to previous question. > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 31851 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100923/f95bf68c/attachment.gif From allnutt at frontier.com Thu Sep 23 12:02:41 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:02:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Sometimes people do things to benefit themselves. Like vote for functioning government and competent administrators. (As opposed to government by the biggest corporate take over imaginable.) So I guess everything that is done according to the rules set down to run programs (like when to do a COLA and how much to do) is done to benefit those who like to live in a civilized society. Themselves as you like to call them. And it is up to us collectively to methodically change the rules if we don't like those rules. Katie . On Sep 23, 2010, at 11:37 AM, donkelly wrote: > Don't always agree, but personal opinions always, ALWAYS, taken > well Walt. > > But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? > > If anyone believes that the congress people who proposed keeping > the COLA > did not themselves benefit in some manner, I have a bridge for > sale....good > location. > > If anyone believes, as I do, that Social Security will go broke as > it is, > how long will what we paid in last after the government adds 20 > million > mostly illegals, who never paid in a dime into SS, are thrown into > the SS > System, free of charge? > > And if the government had not raided the SS fund for money to > support their, > THEIR, agenda, would not the untapped SS funds be earning interest > somewhere > by interest I speak not of the interest of the greedy eyes of > politicians > whom just cannot find enough money to support their personal > interests and > party agenda? > > How much gold is there in Fort Knox as we speak? The government > will not > answer that question. So where is the gold? > > Finally, Union-label Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has hatched > a plan to > ram the speech-killing "Disclose Act" through the Senate TODAY. > > I would love it if someone could reliably tell me this is not true. > > Oh yes, I am in a good and respectful mood today, just seeking > answers. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/23/2010 8:45:10 AM > To: jeff at jeffhowden.com; Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! > > Yep, and yep... > Although the Tea Party types might ask, what right have we got to a > COLA anyhow? Or Social Security, for that matter? > After all, if we live too long and inflation rises too fast, we use > up what we paid into the system, so our COLA and future SS payments > come from (gasp) the money TAKEN from the wages of the heroic > American worker! > (Note to the grimly serious? this is meant as gentle satire. This is > my busy day, so I don't want to start any furore). > WW > On Sep 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Jeff Howden wrote: > >> Don, >> >>> From: donkelly >>> >>> It seems you checked it out more thoroughly than I did Walt. >> >> And Katie and I checked out more thoroughly than you or Walt did >> combined >> (no offense meant, Walt, as I've already read your admission of >> bypassing >> the "checking it out" phase). >> >>> But I still question part. >> >> Why? What's to question? >> >>> Are you suggesting they with held our cola for >>> two years to produce no financial benefit to >>> them? >> >> No, they "withheld" a COLA because it was not justified based on the >> specified economic indicators used to calculate COLA for an >> upcoming year. >> >>> Didn't in fact they with held our cola to finance >>> something they wanted for themselves? >> >> No, see answer to previous question. >> >> Jeff >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet___________________ > ____________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From admin at jeffhowden.com Thu Sep 23 12:58:17 2010 From: admin at jeffhowden.com (Jeff Howden) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:58:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> Don, > From: donkelly > > But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? No, there isn't always. Sometimes things are pretty clear cut and obvious and there's no reason to disagree. > If anyone believes that the congress people who proposed > keeping the COLA did not themselves benefit in some manner, > I have a bridge for sale....good location. First, let's start with what the COLA is: "Q. What is a cost-of-living adjustment (COLA)? A. A COLA is an automatic adjustment in benefits that occurs annually. The purpose of the COLA is to ensure that the purchasing power of Social Security and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits is not eroded by inflation. It is based on the percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W) from the third quarter of one year to the third quarter of the next. If there is no increase, there is no COLA." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q1 Now, it talks about CPI-W. So, let's see who determines the CPI-W for the period that affects the COLA decision: "Q. Who determines the CPI-W? A. The CPI-W is determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the Department of Labor. By law, it is the official measure used by the Social Security Administration to calculate COLAs." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q2 So, dissecting your statement bit by bit, here's what we come up with. First, Congress does not determine a COLA because they don't determine the CPI-W. Second, any COLA that's awarded for a given year is paid out of the Social Security Trust, not any funds that members of Congress have control over. The Social Security Trust is funded by wage earners paying into it. It does not receive any funds from anything Congress controls, mandates, and/or allocates. The Social Security Trust is completely self-sufficient. Therefore, Congress can't benefit in any way, shape, or form, by not awarding a COLA either directly or indirectly by affecting the CPI-W (which they also can't do). Since Congress has no way of being involved in a COLA for SS *and* there's no possible benefit for them to even try to do so, then it's also extremely unlikely that *any* member of Congress made any sort of proposal related to a COLA. I think that pretty clearly illustrates that you have no bridge for sale. > If anyone believes, as I do, that Social Security will > go broke as it is, [...] Current budgetary estimates identify the Social Security Trust being completely solvent and self-sufficient until 2030 at which point they will have to start touching the principal to make benefits payments instead of just the interest earned from it as they're doing now. As that almost certainly covers whatever time you have left, why do you care? > [...] how long will what we paid in last after the > government adds 20 million mostly illegals, who never > paid in a dime into SS, are thrown into the SS System, > free of charge? Where does this figure of 20 million come from? If you're claiming it's illegal immigrants, then your suggest that they've never paid in a dime to it is categorically false. There are numerous economic studies that indicate that a large percentage of illegal immigrants work using a fake/stolen social security number, taxes and other withholdings are taken from their paychecks, and they'll likely never receive any benefits related to those withholdings. So, not only do they overpay in taxes because they can't/don't/won't file to adjust it and get some/all back, but they're paying into social security and medicare which they'll never be able to receive benefits from. Now, even if they were thrown into the system free of charge, that doesn't mean they'll qualify for benefits. There are citizens that don't qualify for benefits because they haven't had enough qualifying work time paying into the system to be qualified for it. So, if these 20 million illegals you claim have never paid a dime, then that'd mean even if they were all magically made citizens they'd never qualify to receive a dime of benefits from it. "How do you qualify for retirement benefits? When you work and pay Social Security taxes, you earn "credits" toward Social Security benefits. The number of credits you need to get retirement benefits depends on when you were born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need 40 credits (10 years of work). If you stop working before you have enough credits to qualify for benefits, the credits will remain on your Social Security record. If you return to work later on, you can add more credits so that you qualify. No retirement benefits can be paid until you have the required number of credits. How much will your retirement benefit be? Your benefit payment is based on how much you earned during your working career. Higher lifetime earnings result in higher benefits. If there were some years when you did not work or had low earnings, your benefit amount may be lower than if you had worked steadily." http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10035.html#retirement So, categorically, your position is false on any number of accounts. > And if the government had not raided the SS fund for > money to support their, THEIR, agenda, would not the > untapped SS funds be earning interest somewhere by > interest I speak not of the interest of the greedy > eyes of politicians whom just cannot find enough money > to support their personal interests and party agenda? Funds that are unused to pay benefits are then used to be buy up Treasure Notes which the SS Fund earns interest on. When the SSA needs to pay more benefits, it sells those Treasury Notes at full value (which the Treasury is legally obligated to do) and benefits are paid. There's no raiding of funds by politicians. http://peoplespension.infoshop.org/blogs-mu/2010/09/20/has-social-security-e ver-been-%E2%80%9Craided%E2%80%9D/ > How much gold is there in Fort Knox as we speak? > The government will not answer that question. So > where is the gold? Who knows and who cares! Why does it matter? Our monetary system has been off the gold standard since 1971 (and for good reason). So, again, why does it matter how much gold is there? More here if you're curious: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/article/is-there-gold-in-fort-knox/ 385523/ > Finally, Union-label Senate Majority Leader Harry > Reid has hatched a plan to ram the speech-killing > "Disclose Act" through the Senate TODAY. The Disclose Act isn't speech-killing unless you think that corporations, unions, and foreign entities ought to be allowed to buy and sell elections. Limits aren't all that it places either. It also seriously improves the amount of disclosure necessary for campaign funds, their sources, and how they're used. This results in transparency for the American public. http://electionlawblog.org/archives/DISCLOSE%20Act_Sec-by-Sec.pdf The Disclose Act does away with much of the recent Supreme Court decision that erroneously granted personhood to corporations and lifted all manner of reasonable limits on their participation in the election process. It also requires that independently buying ads for/against particular candidates to have to more fully disclose who they are. Why on *earth* would you be against the Disclose Act? [Aside: Since the Disclose Act puts restrictions on unions, your use of the phrase "union-label" for Harry Reid clearly indicates your lack of understanding of the issues at play with this bit of legislation.] > I would love it if someone could reliably tell me > this is not true. You can be told, but it won't make a bit of difference if you choose to hold on to your ideas. Jeff From steelem at pacificu.edu Thu Sep 23 13:06:48 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:06:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E48B8B7E@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Thank you, Jeff. As the saying goes, people are entitled to their beliefs, but facts have no party allegiance. Good use of facts here. Factually yours, --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Howden Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 12:58 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Don, > From: donkelly > > But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? No, there isn't always. Sometimes things are pretty clear cut and obvious and there's no reason to disagree. > If anyone believes that the congress people who proposed keeping the > COLA did not themselves benefit in some manner, I have a bridge for > sale....good location. First, let's start with what the COLA is: "Q. What is a cost-of-living adjustment (COLA)? A. A COLA is an automatic adjustment in benefits that occurs annually. The purpose of the COLA is to ensure that the purchasing power of Social Security and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits is not eroded by inflation. It is based on the percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W) from the third quarter of one year to the third quarter of the next. If there is no increase, there is no COLA." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q1 Now, it talks about CPI-W. So, let's see who determines the CPI-W for the period that affects the COLA decision: "Q. Who determines the CPI-W? A. The CPI-W is determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the Department of Labor. By law, it is the official measure used by the Social Security Administration to calculate COLAs." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q2 So, dissecting your statement bit by bit, here's what we come up with. First, Congress does not determine a COLA because they don't determine the CPI-W. Second, any COLA that's awarded for a given year is paid out of the Social Security Trust, not any funds that members of Congress have control over. The Social Security Trust is funded by wage earners paying into it. It does not receive any funds from anything Congress controls, mandates, and/or allocates. The Social Security Trust is completely self-sufficient. Therefore, Congress can't benefit in any way, shape, or form, by not awarding a COLA either directly or indirectly by affecting the CPI-W (which they also can't do). Since Congress has no way of being involved in a COLA for SS *and* there's no possible benefit for them to even try to do so, then it's also extremely unlikely that *any* member of Congress made any sort of proposal related to a COLA. I think that pretty clearly illustrates that you have no bridge for sale. > If anyone believes, as I do, that Social Security will go broke as it > is, [...] Current budgetary estimates identify the Social Security Trust being completely solvent and self-sufficient until 2030 at which point they will have to start touching the principal to make benefits payments instead of just the interest earned from it as they're doing now. As that almost certainly covers whatever time you have left, why do you care? > [...] how long will what we paid in last after the government adds 20 > million mostly illegals, who never paid in a dime into SS, are thrown > into the SS System, free of charge? Where does this figure of 20 million come from? If you're claiming it's illegal immigrants, then your suggest that they've never paid in a dime to it is categorically false. There are numerous economic studies that indicate that a large percentage of illegal immigrants work using a fake/stolen social security number, taxes and other withholdings are taken from their paychecks, and they'll likely never receive any benefits related to those withholdings. So, not only do they overpay in taxes because they can't/don't/won't file to adjust it and get some/all back, but they're paying into social security and medicare which they'll never be able to receive benefits from. Now, even if they were thrown into the system free of charge, that doesn't mean they'll qualify for benefits. There are citizens that don't qualify for benefits because they haven't had enough qualifying work time paying into the system to be qualified for it. So, if these 20 million illegals you claim have never paid a dime, then that'd mean even if they were all magically made citizens they'd never qualify to receive a dime of benefits from it. "How do you qualify for retirement benefits? When you work and pay Social Security taxes, you earn "credits" toward Social Security benefits. The number of credits you need to get retirement benefits depends on when you were born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need 40 credits (10 years of work). If you stop working before you have enough credits to qualify for benefits, the credits will remain on your Social Security record. If you return to work later on, you can add more credits so that you qualify. No retirement benefits can be paid until you have the required number of credits. How much will your retirement benefit be? Your benefit payment is based on how much you earned during your working career. Higher lifetime earnings result in higher benefits. If there were some years when you did not work or had low earnings, your benefit amount may be lower than if you had worked steadily." http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10035.html#retirement So, categorically, your position is false on any number of accounts. > And if the government had not raided the SS fund for money to support > their, THEIR, agenda, would not the untapped SS funds be earning > interest somewhere by interest I speak not of the interest of the > greedy eyes of politicians whom just cannot find enough money to > support their personal interests and party agenda? Funds that are unused to pay benefits are then used to be buy up Treasure Notes which the SS Fund earns interest on. When the SSA needs to pay more benefits, it sells those Treasury Notes at full value (which the Treasury is legally obligated to do) and benefits are paid. There's no raiding of funds by politicians. http://peoplespension.infoshop.org/blogs-mu/2010/09/20/has-social-security-e ver-been-%E2%80%9Craided%E2%80%9D/ > How much gold is there in Fort Knox as we speak? > The government will not answer that question. So where is the gold? Who knows and who cares! Why does it matter? Our monetary system has been off the gold standard since 1971 (and for good reason). So, again, why does it matter how much gold is there? More here if you're curious: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/article/is-there-gold-in-fort-knox/ 385523/ > Finally, Union-label Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has hatched a > plan to ram the speech-killing "Disclose Act" through the Senate > TODAY. The Disclose Act isn't speech-killing unless you think that corporations, unions, and foreign entities ought to be allowed to buy and sell elections. Limits aren't all that it places either. It also seriously improves the amount of disclosure necessary for campaign funds, their sources, and how they're used. This results in transparency for the American public. http://electionlawblog.org/archives/DISCLOSE%20Act_Sec-by-Sec.pdf The Disclose Act does away with much of the recent Supreme Court decision that erroneously granted personhood to corporations and lifted all manner of reasonable limits on their participation in the election process. It also requires that independently buying ads for/against particular candidates to have to more fully disclose who they are. Why on *earth* would you be against the Disclose Act? [Aside: Since the Disclose Act puts restrictions on unions, your use of the phrase "union-label" for Harry Reid clearly indicates your lack of understanding of the issues at play with this bit of legislation.] > I would love it if someone could reliably tell me this is not true. You can be told, but it won't make a bit of difference if you choose to hold on to your ideas. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 14:33:03 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:33:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> Message-ID: <0ADE3E824CDC4741809BC59186701364@EdDaviePC> ?Thanks, Jeff. A marvelous rendition of the facts and the truth. Ed From: Jeff Howden Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 12:58 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Don, > From: donkelly > > But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? No, there isn't always. Sometimes things are pretty clear cut and obvious and there's no reason to disagree. _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Thu Sep 23 19:48:09 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:48:09 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! In-Reply-To: <0FA865D3-20C5-490E-A5AA-016BE1B71766@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <53850F50-9CDB-4870-81FB-00909780CB77@frontier.com> <0FA865D3-20C5-490E-A5AA-016BE1B71766@mac.com> Message-ID: Just a bit more. There actually is a connection between the Federal Government's general fund, the National Debt, and the Social Security program. As you know, the Social Security withholding payments are currently greater than the expenditures, so there is a net accumulation of principal. And there has been a surplus for a long time. So the Social Security Administration (SSA) has invested the money. Where? They bought a piece of the National Debt. The SSA invested in special Treasury Notes, and the federal government borrowed money from the Social Security Fund. The Fund will get the money back if the Federal Government has the money to pay off the debt. If the Federal government defaults on their debt, the Social Security Fund gets hit. Maybe it is time to get people back to work. The push to get the Chinese yuan to a proper value will help American manufacturing interests. The push to lower interest on the money banks "sock away" in the Fed should force them to consider making business loans again. It is just a pity that the single payer health insurance proposal isn't in place to take the cost of medical insurance off of the backs of employers. David On Sep 23, 2010, at 8:20 AM, E. J. Baeza wrote: > Just my 2 cents on SS in general. I recently listened to an interview with the director of SS on OPB radio. He said that the SS trust fund has been incorrectly dragged into the national debt and deficit discussion. The SS trust fund is a stand alone, fully funded program. It totally pays for itself and does not contribute 1 dime to the national debt and deficit. To include the SS trust fund in such an analysis of the deficit would be like using your 401K or IRA or retirement fund to assess your monthly or annual household's cash flow. If one is spending more than they earn on a monthly basis, they cannot dip into their 401K or IRA to cover their bills. Certainly we must make some adjustments to the SS program in order to keep in solvent in the long run, but the trust fund is fully funded at least until 2030 and that is a conservative estimate according to the SS director. The SS trust fund cannot be used to cover non-SS expenditures. > > E. J. From ocollaugh at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 13:16:37 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:16:37 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <6BC32976-A12B-4963-8658-54C2A8955005@teleport.com> <4C9AE321.000003.04036@DON-B2514E06367> <01bf01cb5b2b$b4de9b00$1e9bd100$@com> <34D81816-384C-4182-8D1F-BAA5DF00B0F4@teleport.com> <4C9B9E4F.000009.03636@DON-B2514E06367> <021d01cb5b59$ab138030$013a8090$@com> Message-ID: <4C9BB5A5.000015.03636@DON-B2514E06367> Thank you Jeff. Now off to work to pay more money in to earn more SS benefits. One day I might if lucky be able to afford to retire. If I were a congressman or lady, I could afford to retire now. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Howden Date: 9/23/2010 12:59:32 PM To: 'Forest Grove local interests list' Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Don, > From: donkelly > > But, isn't there always something to respectfully disagree on? No, there isn't always. Sometimes things are pretty clear cut and obvious and there's no reason to disagree. > If anyone believes that the congress people who proposed > keeping the COLA did not themselves benefit in some manner, > I have a bridge for sale....good location. First, let's start with what the COLA is: "Q. What is a cost-of-living adjustment (COLA)? A. A COLA is an automatic adjustment in benefits that occurs annually. The purpose of the COLA is to ensure that the purchasing power of Social Security and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) benefits is not eroded by inflation. It is based on the percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W) from the third quarter of one year to the third quarter of the next. If there is no increase, there is no COLA." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q1 Now, it talks about CPI-W. So, let's see who determines the CPI-W for the period that affects the COLA decision: "Q. Who determines the CPI-W? A. The CPI-W is determined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the Department of Labor. By law, it is the official measure used by the Social Security Administration to calculate COLAs." http://www.ssa.gov/cola/2010/2010faqs.htm#q2 So, dissecting your statement bit by bit, here's what we come up with. First, Congress does not determine a COLA because they don't determine the CPI-W. Second, any COLA that's awarded for a given year is paid out of the Social Security Trust, not any funds that members of Congress have control over. The Social Security Trust is funded by wage earners paying into it. It does not receive any funds from anything Congress controls, mandates, and/or allocates. The Social Security Trust is completely self-sufficient. Therefore, Congress can't benefit in any way, shape, or form, by not awarding a COLA either directly or indirectly by affecting the CPI-W (which they also can't do). Since Congress has no way of being involved in a COLA for SS *and* there's no possible benefit for them to even try to do so, then it's also extremely unlikely that *any* member of Congress made any sort of proposal related to a COLA. I think that pretty clearly illustrates that you have no bridge for sale. > If anyone believes, as I do, that Social Security will > go broke as it is, [...] Current budgetary estimates identify the Social Security Trust being completely solvent and self-sufficient until 2030 at which point they will have to start touching the principal to make benefits payments instead of just the interest earned from it as they're doing now. As that almost certainly covers whatever time you have left, why do you care? > [...] how long will what we paid in last after the > government adds 20 million mostly illegals, who never > paid in a dime into SS, are thrown into the SS System, > free of charge? Where does this figure of 20 million come from? If you're claiming it's illegal immigrants, then your suggest that they've never paid in a dime to it is categorically false. There are numerous economic studies that indicate that a large percentage of illegal immigrants work using a fake/stolen social security number, taxes and other withholdings are taken from their paychecks, and they'll likely never receive any benefits related to those withholdings. So, not only do they overpay in taxes because they can't/don't/won't file to adjust it and get some/all back, but they're paying into social security and medicare which they'll never be able to receive benefits from. Now, even if they were thrown into the system free of charge, that doesn't mean they'll qualify for benefits. There are citizens that don't qualify for benefits because they haven't had enough qualifying work time paying into the system to be qualified for it. So, if these 20 million illegals you claim have never paid a dime, then that'd mean even if they were all magically made citizens they'd never qualify to receive a dime of benefits from it. "How do you qualify for retirement benefits? When you work and pay Social Security taxes, you earn "credits" toward Social Security benefits. The number of credits you need to get retirement benefits depends on when you were born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need 40 credits (10 years of work). If you stop working before you have enough credits to qualify for benefits, the credits will remain on your Social Security record. If you return to work later on, you can add more credits so that you qualify. No retirement benefits can be paid until you have the required number of credits. How much will your retirement benefit be? Your benefit payment is based on how much you earned during your working career. Higher lifetime earnings result in higher benefits. If there were some years when you did not work or had low earnings, your benefit amount may be lower than if you had worked steadily." http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10035.html#retirement So, categorically, your position is false on any number of accounts. > And if the government had not raided the SS fund for > money to support their, THEIR, agenda, would not the > untapped SS funds be earning interest somewhere by > interest I speak not of the interest of the greedy > eyes of politicians whom just cannot find enough money > to support their personal interests and party agenda? Funds that are unused to pay benefits are then used to be buy up Treasure Notes which the SS Fund earns interest on. When the SSA needs to pay more benefits, it sells those Treasury Notes at full value (which the Treasury is legally obligated to do) and benefits are paid. There's no raiding of funds by politicians. http://peoplespension.infoshop.org/blogs-mu/2010/09/20/has-social-security-e ver-been-%E2%80%9Craided%E2%80%9D/ > How much gold is there in Fort Knox as we speak? > The government will not answer that question. So > where is the gold? Who knows and who cares! Why does it matter? Our monetary system has been off the gold standard since 1971 (and for good reason). So, again, why does it matter how much gold is there? More here if you're curious: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/economic-news/article/is-there-gold-in-fort-knox/ 385523/ > Finally, Union-label Senate Majority Leader Harry > Reid has hatched a plan to ram the speech-killing > "Disclose Act" through the Senate TODAY. The Disclose Act isn't speech-killing unless you think that corporations, unions, and foreign entities ought to be allowed to buy and sell elections. Limits aren't all that it places either. It also seriously improves the amount of disclosure necessary for campaign funds, their sources, and how they're used. This results in transparency for the American public. http://electionlawblog.org/archives/DISCLOSE%20Act_Sec-by-Sec.pdf The Disclose Act does away with much of the recent Supreme Court decision that erroneously granted personhood to corporations and lifted all manner of reasonable limits on their participation in the election process. It also requires that independently buying ads for/against particular candidates to have to more fully disclose who they are. Why on *earth* would you be against the Disclose Act? [Aside: Since the Disclose Act puts restrictions on unions, your use of the phrase "union-label" for Harry Reid clearly indicates your lack of understanding of the issues at play with this bit of legislation.] > I would love it if someone could reliably tell me > this is not true. You can be told, but it won't make a bit of difference if you choose to hold on to your ideas. Jeff _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100923/7e3cb2c3/attachment.gif From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Sep 24 07:15:07 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 07:15:07 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Good day to the Good Folks in the Grove Message-ID: <20738-4C9CB26B-2035@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Just For You - It is Friday:- http://tinyurl.com/283nyn2 Don't laugh katie.. but the first thing that comes into thought when the Katt gets me up is this damn e-mail ,, but after I let him out and check the rain gauge of course. Damn... I sure never thought I'd become a creature of habit! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100924/1c4f299a/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Fri Sep 24 07:25:27 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 07:25:27 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Fw: ABOUT OUR "SS" CHECKS!!! Message-ID: <20737-4C9CB4D7-2745@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> This ain't no joke, I've got all the tools, eben a wheel barrow that holds 500lbs that even has an engine.. and I've even got another dissabled Vet to help me. Don't worry about the fee.. it's by job only .. maybe a county dump fee also..... . -------- I wrote yesterday; well.... I guess an OleHoss is going to have to find a part time job. Anyone need Trees around their homes either trimmed or pruned, or completely take out? Also general yard work anything else that need to be taken care of? to? ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100924/71f9fefd/attachment.html From edavie at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 16:07:33 2010 From: edavie at verizon.net (Ed Davie) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 16:07:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] New email address Message-ID: <1BB0FDC0AEE944FBA3C13892F0E38BB2@EdDaviePC> ?This is my new email address. edavie at frontier.com Thanks, Ed Davie From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 10:39:38 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:39:38 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] New email address References: <1BB0FDC0AEE944FBA3C13892F0E38BB2@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <4C9CE256.000005.01176@DON-B2514E06367> Thanks Ed. I thought the following link http://online-edition.info/?25985648 at first came from grovenet in response to my comments about rent costs keep going up I clicked on it and it is about applying for government grants. I'm not against grants in general, grants for education or starting businesses that provide jobs are good. But comes the time to pay the Piper, I believe. But could be wrong, that grants of all types have to one day be paid by our taxes. The website that popped up seems legitimate, and they do warn against people attempting to defraud the grants system. And I noticed that the comments section is temporarily closed due to an overload of spam. Have a great day all...............and perhaps the link can help someone. I could use the money to fix my house and make it energy efficient, but I won't be applying for it. Donkelly -------Original Message------- From: Ed Davie Date: 09/24/10 08:17:26 To: Undisclosed-Recipient:, Subject: [Grovenet] New email address ?This is my new email address. edavie at frontier.com Thanks, Ed Davie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100924/a53ca84d/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 24 13:18:44 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:18:44 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. Well, we tried! Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. Who will be next? Shop Wal-Mart? I don't think so... WW > From smithsmith at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 13:30:38 2010 From: smithsmith at gmail.com (b Smith) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:30:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: Next - Fred Meyer? It will only get worse. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's > Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is > closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. > Well, we tried! > Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed > neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to > get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- > Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. > No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- > head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State > Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already > made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- > town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. > Who will be next? > Shop Wal-Mart? > I don't think so... > WW > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 14:34:10 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 14:34:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> Walt, yes, this was predicted, but we did not know where lightning would strike first. Let us hope, and keep working in efforts to keep Safeway and Fred Meyers from approaching the chopping block next. But we have looming on the horizon even broader issues, and this has also been predicted in different venues. This is even hard to think about, but if we cannot stop government excesses, over reaching,and over controlling, it will come to a time when the government will control the media, television, radio, all communications, and government will even control our food supply. If this is the best the president can do, as suggested on this list a time or two, do we have reasons to to be impressed yet by his efforts? Or on the other hand, is it the unimportant and inconsequential little people whom are stopping him from being successful in executing his agenda? Don -------Original Message------- From: Walt Wentz Date: 9/24/2010 1:18:37 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. Well, we tried! Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. Who will be next? Shop Wal-Mart? I don't think so... WW > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100924/9cefc7bd/attachment.gif From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 15:01:54 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:01:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: Grrrr, this news makes me madder than hell. And yes, it was predictable. The dominoes will continue to fall until only Wal-Mart is left standing. People who are ignorant of, or who outright refuse to believe the facts are responsible for this sad moment in our homegrown, local economy. Hanks/Grande Foods has been around for at least 50 years. It tried valiantly to stay alive in light of the eminent threat by Big Box Wal-Mart, but alas, I suppose the impact was even more severe than they anticipated. And yes, I agree with you Walt, it was a done, dirty deal from the very beginning. Those folks who said that Wal-Mart was going be a boon to the local economy were flat out wrong. Just who is going to fill the 70 local jobs that will be lost? Certainly not Wal-Mart. I'm sure the news has them licking their chops and salivating over their now weakened competition and the boost it will mean to their bottom line. http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/09/22/forbes-400-the-richest-people-in-america/ jimz PS: Forbes magazine just published their list of the 10 wealthiest people in America, and guess what, 4 of the top 10 were Waltons (family members who control the Wal-Mart Empire-with a combined net worth of over $80 billion dollars). While some may argue that they just have excellent business acumen and a killer business plan, I say they didn't get to where they are now by being a kinder and gentler corporation. I really wonder if Pappy Walton would approve? PPS: Shop with your conscience. Don't shop Wal-Mart. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's > Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is > closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. > Well, we tried! > Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed > neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to > get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- > Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. > No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- > head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State > Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already > made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- > town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. > Who will be next? > Shop Wal-Mart? > I don't think so... > WW > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Fri Sep 24 15:54:44 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:54:44 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: <4C9D2C2F.00001F.01176@DON-B2514E06367> If there is a bright side in this, it is tax revenues which will help schools, etc. But on balance, the jury is out and I may end up in 100% agreement with you all. There is another but here that but does not put the whole blame on Wallmart- - - -the government actions against businesses and free market in general, must as a consequence, share the blame. Why should we be concerned with how much gold is in Fort Knox? The undated most current report I could find claims there is 147.3 million onces of gold there, and as an asset of the United States it carries a book value of $42.22 per ounce. High level in this century was 649.6. Million ounces. Small amounts for audit testing is removed each year, but there has been no gold deposited or removed for many years, so states the director of the assets. Financial Reports in 2007, 2008 and 2009 state how much gold and silver was sold in dollars each year. But the balance sheet is in dollars, not ounces, so we cannot know how much gold is there today, About twice as much sold in 2008 as the year before, and in 2009 four times as much was sold than in 2008. There is no trail to tell us how large this asset of the United States is. Finally, there are no visitors allowed, and no exceptions, so there can be no independent audits. So is there any gold left? If not, should we be concerned? Don -------Original Message------- From: Jim Zaleski Date: 9/24/2010 3:02:51 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Grrrr, this news makes me madder than hell. And yes, it was predictable. The dominoes will continue to fall until only Wal-Mart is left standing. People who are ignorant of, or who outright refuse to believe the facts are responsible for this sad moment in our homegrown, local economy. Hanks/Grande Foods has been around for at least 50 years. It tried valiantly to stay alive in light of the eminent threat by Big Box Wal-Mart, but alas, I suppose the impact was even more severe than they anticipated. And yes, I agree with you Walt, it was a done, dirty deal from the very beginning. Those folks who said that Wal-Mart was going be a boon to the local economy were flat out wrong. Just who is going to fill the 70 local jobs that will be lost? Certainly not Wal-Mart. I'm sure the news has them licking their chops and salivating over their now weakened competition and the boost it will mean to their bottom line. http://www.walletpop com/blog/2010/09/22/forbes-400-the-richest-people-in-america/ jimz PS: Forbes magazine just published their list of the 10 wealthiest people in America, and guess what, 4 of the top 10 were Waltons (family members who control the Wal-Mart Empire-with a combined net worth of over $80 billion dollars). While some may argue that they just have excellent business acumen and a killer business plan, I say they didn't get to where they are now by being a kinder and gentler corporation. I really wonder if Pappy Walton would approve? PPS: Shop with your conscience. Don't shop Wal-Mart. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's > Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is > closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. > Well, we tried! > Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed > neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to > get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- > Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. > No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- > head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State > Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already > made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- > town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. > Who will be next? > Shop Wal-Mart? > I don't think so... > WW > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 41807 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100924/6ebda408/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 24 16:22:49 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:22:49 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4C9D2C2F.00001F.01176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D2C2F.00001F.01176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: > If there is a bright side in this, it is tax revenues which will help > schools, etc. But all the local business that will be gone will no longer pay taxes, or utilities. And the local people who give up looking for work and move away will no longer pay taxes, or utilities. And utilities may have to raise rates because of decreased demand. An police protection in blighted neighborhoods will be stretched thinner, resulting in more crime and drug activity. And, in 10 or 20 years, Wal-Mart will decide to abandon that store and build a more modern one in another, more prosperous area. And Cornelius (and perhaps neighboring towns) will be left as hollow shells, with a shuttered big box in the middle of them slowly deteriorating in the weather. Does this sound paranoid? It has happened to numerous towns in the Northeast, East and South. Do some Google searching on the subject. It will scare the hell out of you. > But on balance, the jury is out and I may end up in 100% agreement > with you > all. > > There is another but here that but does not put the whole blame on > Wallmart- - - -the government actions against businesses and free > market in > general, must as a consequence, share the blame. I have to agree , to some degree. Giant corporations (including Wal- Mart) own the government, and all the "free-trade agreements" have gutted the industrial base of America as corporations shift their labor overseas, to take advantage of desperate coolie labor. If you want to buy something, you either have to try to find a local craftsman who works for the love of it, or get another piece of cheap plastic crap from China or East Rattbaggistan. > > Why should we be concerned with how much gold is in Fort Knox? If the government is as deep in debt to unfriendly nations as the Iraq war debt would seem to indicate, then all the gold might well have been sold already. Perhaps "they" conceal the audit because they are afraid of touching off a panic if people suddenly realize that modern money is mainly imaginary. Time was, money was labor made portable, the value of work that some actual person did, and was paid for in hard tokens that could be exchanged for groceries and goods that other people had made. Now, money is largely created by various CEOS and top executives shuffling paper and electronic impulses around. Money has become "Information." Try to eat information, wear information, keep the rain off with information. > > The undated most current report I could find claims there is 147.3 > million Wish I had some. WW > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jim Zaleski > Date: 9/24/2010 3:02:51 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Grrrr, this news makes me madder than hell. And yes, it was > predictable. The > dominoes will continue to fall until only Wal-Mart is left > standing. People > who are ignorant of, or who outright refuse to believe the facts are > responsible for this sad moment in our homegrown, local economy. > Hanks/Grande Foods has been around for at least 50 years. It tried > valiantly > to stay alive in light of the eminent threat by Big Box Wal-Mart, > but alas, > I suppose the impact was even more severe than they anticipated. > And yes, I > agree with you Walt, it was a done, dirty deal from the very > beginning. > Those folks who said that Wal-Mart was going be a boon to the local > economy > were flat out wrong. Just who is going to fill the 70 local jobs > that will > be lost? Certainly not Wal-Mart. I'm sure the news has them licking > their > chops and salivating over their now weakened competition and the > boost it > will mean to their bottom line. > > http://www.walletpop > com/blog/2010/09/22/forbes-400-the-richest-people-in-america/ > > jimz > > PS: Forbes magazine just published their list of the 10 wealthiest > people in > America, and guess what, 4 of the top 10 were Waltons (family > members who > control the Wal-Mart Empire-with a combined net worth of over $80 > billion > dollars). While some may argue that they just have excellent > business acumen > and a killer business plan, I say they didn't get to where they are > now by > being a kinder and gentler corporation. I really wonder if Pappy > Walton > would approve? > > PPS: Shop with your conscience. Don't shop Wal-Mart. > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's >> Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is >> closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. >> Well, we tried! >> Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed >> neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to >> get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- >> Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. >> No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- >> head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State >> Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already >> made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- >> town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. >> Who will be next? >> Shop Wal-Mart? >> I don't think so... >> WW >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Fri Sep 24 18:07:08 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:07:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> On Sep 24, 2010, at 2:34 PM, donkelly wrote: > This is even hard to think about, but if we cannot stop government excesses, over reaching,and over controlling, it will come to a time when the government will control the media, television, radio, all communications, and government will even control our food supply. Right, it was too much control that caused the oil spill and salmonella outbreak in eggs. Get real, it was businesses avoiding the regulations and breaking the rules that created the problem. Monsanto, Con Agra, and Archer Daniels Midland already control a large portion of our food supply, and they are not going to let the government have any piece of it. FOX news is controlled by a foreign national who is in partnership with a Saudi prince. > > Or on the other hand, is it the unimportant and inconsequential little people whom are stopping him from being successful in executing his agenda? The loss of Grande did not come from federal actions, it came from Walmart and the Cornelius city council. > > Don From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 20:19:12 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:19:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> Message-ID: Hard to imagine what $80 billion dollars looks like, or what enormous power is contained within it's massive numbers. Visually, the numerals look like this: $80,000,000,000. Mathematically here's how one arrives at a billion: 10 x 10 = 100 x 10 = 1000 x 10 = 10,000 x 10 = 100,000 x 10 = 1,000,000 x 10 = 10,000,000 x 10 = 100,000,000 x 10 = 1,000,000,000 And while we're at it lets take it a couple of notches higher. Because, according to Forbes magazine?s annual survey, just released, the combined net worth of the 400 richest Americans climbed 8% this year, to $1.37 trillion (much more wealth than most third world countries-combined). x 10 = 10,000,000,000 x 10 = 100,000,000,000 x 10 = 1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) The net worth of America's 400 richest: $1,370,000,000,000.00 And all the while, during these tough economic times, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is slipping deeper everyday into a black hole of dwindling prosperity. According to Robert Reich, Sec. of Labor during the Clinton Administration, the gap between the rich and poor has widened so much that the middle class no longer has the earning power to bring this country out of its economic doldrums on its own (even with full employment). So much money is tied up with these mega-billionaires that there simply isn't enough left to go around. And the Republicans are still trying to get additional tax breaks for corporations. Scheech! And if you think the rich are paying their fair share of the taxes in this country think again. "...of the 25 top [American] hedge-fund managers got an average of $1 billion each, *but paid an average of [only] 17 percent in taxes * (because so much of their income is considered capital gains, taxed at 15 percent thanks to the Bush tax cuts)." And guess what, you and I have to make up the difference! According to Reich, an income gap this big has not existed since the late 20's (and you know what happened in the 30's - The Great Depression). http://www.truth-out.org/the-super-rich-get-richer-everyone-else-gets-poorer-and-democrats-punt63544 And here's an example of pure greed (where the richest of the rich want to get richer off the backs of the working class,) "Charles and David Koch, the energy magnates who are pouring vast sums of money into Republican coffers and sponsoring tea partiers all over America, each gained $5.5 billion of wealth over the past year. Each is now worth $21.5 billion." Each gained $5.5 billion, and they want a bigger break!!! They (the government) say that there are policies and practices in place today that will prevent a re-occurrence of the Great Depression. I don't believe it, not as long as there is such greed in this country. As the gap between rich and poor widens, any controls we believe we have could ultimately fail, and the rich will wind up retreating to their ivory towers to eat their cake and caviar while the rest of us stand in the bread lines and the soup kitchens hoping for a small morsel of food to feed our hungry bellies. While this may sound extreme, I don't think it's too far off the mark. There are no fail safe policies that can guarantee us that another Great Depression won't happen again. None. >From my perspective, we're poised on the edge of disaster. And to those that still feel we can turn this all around by giving further tax breaks to the rich, I say, wake up, you're inviting chaos. Any tax breaks they would get would not go towards more jobs, they will go to reward the poor CEO's and stockholders who have been suffering from a slower than expected climb up the ladder to riches. Why would the rich want to risk investing their good money in a failing middle class when they have it so good already? Just too risky. As Reich points out in an upcoming book, After Shock, the shrinking middle class just doesn't have the earning power to get us out of this mess. I close with a question. If more jobs and the middle class can't do it, then who will? Don't count on big business to save you, they're too busy saving themselves. jimz PS: I would like to see the return of the CCC or something similar. There's so much to be done to fix the failing infrastructure in this country and so many people needing work. The time is right for the government to invest directly in the backbone of this country, the working class. Government dollars for government jobs. Call it what you will, but corporate America can't or won't do it (aren't doing it), so the government will have to step in and get the job done. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Grrrr, this news makes me madder than hell. And yes, it was predictable. > The dominoes will continue to fall until only Wal-Mart is left standing. > People who are ignorant of, or who outright refuse to believe the facts are > responsible for this sad moment in our homegrown, local economy. > Hanks/Grande Foods has been around for at least 50 years. It tried valiantly > to stay alive in light of the eminent threat by Big Box Wal-Mart, but alas, > I suppose the impact was even more severe than they anticipated. And yes, I > agree with you Walt, it was a done, dirty deal from the very beginning. > Those folks who said that Wal-Mart was going be a boon to the local economy > were flat out wrong. Just who is going to fill the 70 local jobs that will > be lost? Certainly not Wal-Mart. I'm sure the news has them licking their > chops and salivating over their now weakened competition and the boost it > will mean to their bottom line. > > > http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/09/22/forbes-400-the-richest-people-in-america/ > > jimz > > PS: Forbes magazine just published their list of the 10 wealthiest people > in America, and guess what, 4 of the top 10 were Waltons (family members who > control the Wal-Mart Empire-with a combined net worth of over $80 billion > dollars). While some may argue that they just have excellent business acumen > and a killer business plan, I say they didn't get to where they are now by > being a kinder and gentler corporation. I really wonder if Pappy Walton > would approve? > > PPS: Shop with your conscience. Don't shop Wal-Mart. > > > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's >> Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is >> closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. >> Well, we tried! >> Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed >> neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to >> get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- >> Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. >> No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- >> head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State >> Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already >> made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- >> town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. >> Who will be next? >> Shop Wal-Mart? >> I don't think so... >> WW >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > From waltw at teleport.com Fri Sep 24 20:25:58 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:25:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <9B25549A-8584-43A9-A81E-4DE76DB5F186@teleport.com> Well, change "government" for "single giant corporations," and you're likely right on. The government is not the all-powerful monolith that threatens us. More and more, the government is simply the humble servant of Big Money. When their spokesweasels spread dire warnings about how overregulation will kill our freedoms, monopolize our media, health care and food supplies, destroy our infrastructure and systematically impoverish the working class, they merely smile, knowing that they themselves are already doing all those things-- and, with corporate "personhood," they are powerful enough to cement their control over the government? and the country? for the foreseeable future. If President Obama is, as you say, so helpless to prevent these dire developments, why should we fear his "agenda." whatever that is? Certainly he will be no more able to accomplish it against the massed power of Big Money than he will be able to accomplish the relatively timid and modest defense of the middle and working classes he has thus far attempted. WW > Walt, yes, this was predicted, but we did not know where lightning > would > strike first. > > Let us hope, and keep working in efforts to keep Safeway and Fred > Meyers > from approaching the chopping block next. > > But we have looming on the horizon even broader issues, and this > has also > been predicted in different venues. > > This is even hard to think about, but if we cannot stop government > excesses, > over reaching,and over controlling, it will come to a time when the > government will control the media, television, radio, all > communications, > and government will even control our food supply. > > If this is the best the president can do, as suggested on this list > a time > or two, do we have reasons to to be impressed yet by his efforts? > > Or on the other hand, is it the unimportant and inconsequential little > people whom are stopping him from being successful in executing his > agenda? > > Don > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 9/24/2010 1:18:37 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Paul R. Scandlyn forwards a scan of the front-page article in today's > Hillsboro Argus, noting that Grande Foods (formerly Hank's) is > closing its doors, with a loss of 70 local jobs. > Well, we tried! > Cornelius First was a group of dedicated people who canvassed > neighborhoods and attended Cornelius City Council meetings, trying to > get council members and citizens to look at the evidence of what Wal- > Mart had been doing for years to other small towns across the nation. > No matter what we presented, it was essentially ignored. The then- > head honcho of the city council (who later ran for State > Representative, unsuccessfully, on the Republican ticket) had already > made up his mind. The dirty deal was approved. So now another home- > town business is gone, along with the local jobs it provided. > Who will be next? > Shop Wal-Mart? > I don't think so... > WW > >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet________________________ > _______________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From canam58 at msn.com Fri Sep 24 20:57:21 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:57:21 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Football game Message-ID: Any one know how FG is doing against HilHi at the game? From allnutt at frontier.com Fri Sep 24 21:58:46 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:58:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Expired drug turn in In-Reply-To: <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> Message-ID: The FG police station will take old expired drugs from your medicine cabinet from 10-2 tomorrow (Saturday). And according to the report they will not flush it down the drain they will incinerate them. Katie From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 09:43:42 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> Add to that list the local community. Did other people on this list shop at Grande Foods? I went in a few times and each time the store was a ghost town. With Safeway, Fred Meyers and WinCo within a ten mile radius it is difficult for another supermarket to compete. The store didn't offer much more than any other supermarket, although their butcher department was really good. Did Wal-Mart cause Grande Foods to shut down, I would say no. Was it the final nail in the coffin, that I would agree with. Adam David Morelli wrote: > The loss of Grande did not come from federal actions, it came from Walmart and the Cornelius city council. > >> Don >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 25 10:08:24 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> When it was Hanks we shopped there only 2 or 3 times. I bought plants once as I recall. When it became Grande Foods, we did not shop there at all Irene likes Safeway and Fred Meyers and occasionally shops at WinCo. If many other families had the same shopping habits, that is why Grande Foods closed. They were not competitive in the market place and lacked the selection and pricing, and YES, ambiance too, that we wanted. At the top, management just didn't seem to have it all together. And Hank's must have known something which encouraged them to bail out. As you suggest, Walmart may have provided the coup de Gras. Don -------Original Message------- From: Adam Mayer Date: 9/25/2010 9:44:07 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Add to that list the local community. Did other people on this list shop at Grande Foods? I went in a few times and each time the store was a ghost town. With Safeway, Fred Meyers and WinCo within a ten mile radius it is difficult for another supermarket to compete. The store didn't offer much more than any other supermarket, although their butcher department was really good. Did Wal-Mart cause Grande Foods to shut down, I would say no. Was it the final nail in the coffin, that I would agree with. Adam David Morelli wrote: > The loss of Grande did not come from federal actions, it came from Walmart and the Cornelius city council. > >> Don >> > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100925/b37d5e44/attachment.gif From nospam03 at comcast.net Sat Sep 25 10:30:17 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 17:30:17 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com><4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one in Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. -----Original Message----- From: "donkelly" Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: donkelly , Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Sat Sep 25 10:45:23 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:45:23 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Right to work Message-ID: <4C9E352F.000019.02236@DON-B2514E06367> And it worked. Harry Reid's assault on free speech failed because people like you made your voices heard. Harry Reid failed again to pay off the big union bosses. The people win again. Don -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100925/d7556478/attachment-0001.gif From dick.lajeunesse at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 13:51:41 2010 From: dick.lajeunesse at hotmail.com (Dick LaJeunesse) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:51:41 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: thr rest of the story In-Reply-To: <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> Message-ID: from today's Oregonian. Sorry the facts don't fit the hypothesis. "Tom Evans tried to save his grocery store. When Walmart announced in 2005 it would bring yet another supermarket to Cornelius, Evans transformed his Hank's Thriftway into Grande Foods, hoping to cater to the nearly 6,000 Latinos who represent as much as half of the city's population. But on Friday, he and the other owners announced they were shutting down the specialty market after a four-year run, a casualty of a tough economy for grocers in general and competition from five nearby markets, including the newly opened Walmart. And though city and community leaders praised Evans' creation of a Latino market, his target audience has declined, they say. Hank's was a mainstay of Cornelius for more than 71 years when, in July 2006, it became Oregon's first traditional grocery to undergo such a complete transformation. The 35,000-square-foot Grande Foods featured a Mexican bakery, tortilleria, creamery and a "cocina" or deli. Cornelius leaders called it a "cornerstone" of the town. But the store has struggled since it opened, Evans said. In 2007, his business declined by 20 percent, he said, after Oregon began requiring verified Social Security numbers to attain drivers licenses. Then, this past year, business declined by another 15 percent, he said, after Cornelius nurseries laid off a significant amount of workers. For years, neither Evans nor the store's co-owners, Lyle Blow and Larry Hering, took a salary. When Walmart announced it would open its first Washington County store in Cornelius, Evans thought it would revive his store. He believed, as city leaders had suggested, that Walmart would bring more traffic to Cornelius when it opened in mid-August. That traffic would mean more business. That traffic never came, Evans said. And Walmart's first two business days were the worst in Grande Foods' history. " "With everything going on, it was a perfect storm," Evans said. > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0700 > From: adamsmayer at gmail.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Add to that list the local community. Did other people on this list > shop at Grande Foods? I went in a few times and each time the store was > a ghost town. With Safeway, Fred Meyers and WinCo within a ten mile > radius it is difficult for another supermarket to compete. The store > didn't offer much more than any other supermarket, although their > butcher department was really good. > > Did Wal-Mart cause Grande Foods to shut down, I would say no. Was it > the final nail in the coffin, that I would agree with. > > Adam > > David Morelli wrote: > > The loss of Grande did not come from federal actions, it came from Walmart and the Cornelius city council. > > > >> Don > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 14:37:38 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 14:37:38 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: thr rest of the story In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C9E6BA2.6050008@gmail.com> So it's starting to look like it really wasn't all Wal-Mart's fault that they closed. Adam Dick LaJeunesse wrote: > from today's Oregonian. Sorry the facts don't fit the hypothesis. > > > "Tom Evans tried to save his grocery store. When Walmart announced in > 2005 it would bring yet another supermarket to Cornelius, Evans > transformed his Hank's Thriftway into Grande Foods, hoping to cater to > the nearly 6,000 Latinos who represent as much as half of the city's > population. > > But on Friday, he and the other owners announced > they were shutting down the specialty market after a four-year run, a > casualty of a tough economy for grocers in general and competition from > five nearby markets, including the newly opened Walmart. > > And though city and community leaders praised Evans' creation of a Latino market, his target audience has declined, they say. > > Hank's > was a mainstay of Cornelius for more than 71 years when, in July 2006, > it became Oregon's first traditional grocery to undergo such a complete > transformation. The 35,000-square-foot Grande Foods featured a Mexican > bakery, tortilleria, creamery and a "cocina" or deli. Cornelius leaders > called it a "cornerstone" of the town. But the store has struggled since > it opened, Evans said. > > In 2007, his business declined by 20 > percent, he said, after Oregon began requiring verified Social Security > numbers to attain drivers licenses. Then, this past year, business > declined by another 15 percent, he said, after Cornelius nurseries laid > off a significant amount of workers. > > For years, neither Evans nor the store's co-owners, Lyle Blow and Larry Hering, took a salary. > > When > Walmart announced it would open its first Washington County store in > Cornelius, Evans thought it would revive his store. He believed, as city > leaders had suggested, that Walmart would bring more traffic to > Cornelius when it opened in mid-August. That traffic would mean more > business. > > That traffic never came, Evans said. And Walmart's first two business days were the worst in Grande Foods' history. " > > > "With everything going on, it was a perfect storm," Evans said. > >> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 09:43:42 -0700 >> From: adamsmayer at gmail.com >> To: grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >> >> Add to that list the local community. Did other people on this list >> shop at Grande Foods? I went in a few times and each time the store was >> a ghost town. With Safeway, Fred Meyers and WinCo within a ten mile >> radius it is difficult for another supermarket to compete. The store >> didn't offer much more than any other supermarket, although their >> butcher department was really good. >> >> Did Wal-Mart cause Grande Foods to shut down, I would say no. Was it >> the final nail in the coffin, that I would agree with. >> >> Adam >> >> David Morelli wrote: >> >>> The loss of Grande did not come from federal actions, it came from Walmart and the Cornelius city council. >>> >>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sat Sep 25 19:14:12 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:14:12 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: the rest of the story In-Reply-To: Dick LaJeunesse 's message of Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:51:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20737-4C9EAC74-4691@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I sure as hell hope no smart ass developer comes to Banks .... and try this... I might just become a vigilante. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100925/ffa4beb9/attachment.html From jo.david at frontier.com Sat Sep 25 22:32:26 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:32:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: the rest of the story In-Reply-To: <20737-4C9EAC74-4691@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <20737-4C9EAC74-4691@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: On Sep 25, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I sure as hell hope no smart ass developer comes to Banks .... and try this... I might just become a vigilante. Are you referring to grocery developer or housing developer? David From jo.david at frontier.com Sat Sep 25 22:41:57 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:41:57 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: thr rest of the story In-Reply-To: <4C9E6BA2.6050008@gmail.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E6BA2.6050008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60D205DC-0971-4C66-8AFD-EF2E9ADEBA57@frontier.com> Perhaps you missed the second sentence? They had a 71 year history of success and had to change from a proven, working business plan to a speculative nitch market plan, because Walmart was moving in with a low cost grocery store that was reasonably expected to gut their customer base. The change from a community supermarket to a specialty market meant that they reduced or eliminated shelf space for much of the foods that drew shoppers like us. It was a gamble and they lost. If they had not changed they likely would have lost anyway. If Walmart had not come to town, they may have survived. David On Sep 25, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > So it's starting to look like it really wasn't all Wal-Mart's fault that they closed. > > Adam > > Dick LaJeunesse wrote: >> from today's Oregonian. Sorry the facts don't fit the hypothesis. >> >> >> "Tom Evans tried to save his grocery store. When Walmart announced in 2005 it would bring yet another supermarket to Cornelius, Evans transformed his Hank's Thriftway into Grande Foods, hoping to cater to the nearly 6,000 Latinos who represent as much as half of the city's population. From jo.david at frontier.com Sat Sep 25 22:46:10 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:46:10 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road Message-ID: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> On the Eastern edge of the city, a very large pipe was installed from the Railroad tracks south to Heather Street, and it was topped with an asphalt road. Does anyone know what it does, and who paid for the work? There is no new building construction in Forest Grove near there. David From adamsmayer at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 08:45:30 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 08:45:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: thr rest of the story In-Reply-To: <60D205DC-0971-4C66-8AFD-EF2E9ADEBA57@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E6BA2.6050008@gmail.com> <60D205DC-0971-4C66-8AFD-EF2E9ADEBA57@frontier.com> Message-ID: <4C9F6A9A.1080603@gmail.com> Unfortunately the rest of the article was not posted. Here is some of what was also in the article: /Meyer (Richard Meyer Cornelius development and operations director) said a store such as Grande Foods has "tremendous competition" in the Cornelius area, which already had a Bi-Mart, Fred Meyer, Safeway and WinCo within a two-mile radius before Walmart opened. Herb Sorensen, a Portland based retail consultant and author of "Inside the Mind of the Shopper", said that while smaller, niche markets often can fend off larger stores by being more entrepreneurial, a Latino market is not always a draw. "Latinos won't necessarily gravitate toward that market", he said. "Many of them would just as soon shop in a full-service market. Lots of stores already have generous Spanish language signage." He also downplayed the Walmart effect: "I know people say people go out of business when Walmart comes to town, but the stronger players will survive. This has been proven over and over again across the country."/ I too like the idea of specialty stores, but it looks like Grande Foods never caught on. They had four years and it seems that it never became popular enough with the Spanish community or with everyone else living here. If they were a strong supermarket and then decided a few months ago to make this change, then I could see how Walmart would be a major reason, but they had four years to build a loyal customer base and it seems they didn't. When I would go there the store was always almost empty, but I didn't do my weekly shopping there, did anyone on the list shop there? Adam David Morelli wrote: > Perhaps you missed the second sentence? > > They had a 71 year history of success and had to change from a proven, working business plan to a speculative nitch market plan, because Walmart was moving in with a low cost grocery store that was reasonably expected to gut their customer base. > > The change from a community supermarket to a specialty market meant that they reduced or eliminated shelf space for much of the foods that drew shoppers like us. It was a gamble and they lost. If they had not changed they likely would have lost anyway. If Walmart had not come to town, they may have survived. > > David > > On Sep 25, 2010, at 2:37 PM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> So it's starting to look like it really wasn't all Wal-Mart's fault that they closed. >> >> Adam >> >> Dick LaJeunesse wrote: >> >>> from today's Oregonian. Sorry the facts don't fit the hypothesis. >>> >>> >>> "Tom Evans tried to save his grocery store. When Walmart announced in 2005 it would bring yet another supermarket to Cornelius, Evans transformed his Hank's Thriftway into Grande Foods, hoping to cater to the nearly 6,000 Latinos who represent as much as half of the city's population. >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Sun Sep 26 09:49:56 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 09:49:56 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <25440-4C9F79B4-185@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Sunday :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html6/sundayrest.html ======= Sorry folks. this was the only one I could find that would make this mornings dismal outside looks ... just a little more bearable. as far as snowbird_51 .. that is another long Hosstyle Tale. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100926/7904b31f/attachment.html From tosca at prodigy.net Sun Sep 26 17:38:43 2010 From: tosca at prodigy.net (Bonnie B. Combs) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 17:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road In-Reply-To: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> References: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> Message-ID: <555741.49061.qm@web81403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't know but I will gues; that wounds like the Juniper Gardens area.? It is a planned housing development for low-income apartment renters.? The Oregonian had a very small article about it.? Federal grant money, I think. Ask Rob Foster. ----- Original Message ---- From: David Morelli To: grovenet Sent: Sat, September 25, 2010 10:46:10 PM Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road On the Eastern edge of the city, a very large pipe was installed from the Railroad tracks south to Heather Street, and it was topped with an asphalt road. Does anyone know what it does, and who paid for the work?? There is no new building construction in Forest Grove near there. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From isis23ra at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 20:30:44 2010 From: isis23ra at yahoo.com (Alana Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Grovenet] P.U. Girls Today Conference 10/8/10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <287156.97501.qm@web55603.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Girls Today Conference at Pacific University A meeting for and about girls set for October 8, 2010 A day-long seminar at Pacific University on October 8 will bring together girls to discuss diverse issues that schools often cannot adequately address. The Girls Today Conference is designed for girls ages 12 through 15 years old in Western Washington County. Through this summit, girls will have the opportunity to speak and be heard on these pressing issues with the aid of trained facilitators from Pacific?s School of Professional Psychology.? The summit will include an opening session, a forum about college, small group sessions on specific issues, a self-defense workshop and campus tour, and a free Girls Today t-shirt for all participants. Held at 2017 21st. Forest Grove. The conference will take place Friday, October 8, 8:30 a.m. to 3:45 p.m., on the campus of Pacific University in Forest Grove.? Public schools will not be holding classes that day because of a statewide teacher training day.? The cost for the conference is $10.00. >From 8:30 to 9:00 AM, there will be a parents? meeting in Old College Hall on the corner of Pacific Avenue and College Way, where we can discuss the role of Parents in their daughters? education. Registration by October 1 is encouraged to assure a spot.? For information on the Girls Today conference, contact Linda Lybecker at? llybecker at msn.com, or register at pacificu.edu/cge. Co-sponsored by Pacific University?s Center for Gender Equity and the American Association of University Women/Hillsboro-Forest Grove Branch, this is the sixth Girls Today Conference; past conferences have drawn raves from the girls attending:? ?The discussion was awesome?? ?I?ll tell my friends about it. . . more of them should have come.? Dr. Martha Rampton Professor of History Director-Center for Gender Equity Pacific University 2043 College Way Forest Grove, Oregon? 97116 Phone: 503 352 2772 Fax:? ???503 352 3195 CGE site:? www.pacificu.edu/academics/gender-equity/ "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."? Mother Teresa From canam58 at msn.com Sun Sep 26 20:48:25 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 20:48:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road In-Reply-To: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> References: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> Message-ID: It is the storm sewer upgrade required by CWS for the WalMart parking lot water quality facility . The existing storm ditch was not adequate to handle the increased flow. DH ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: grovenet Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road On the Eastern edge of the city, a very large pipe was installed from the Railroad tracks south to Heather Street, and it was topped with an asphalt road. Does anyone know what it does, and who paid for the work? There is no new building construction in Forest Grove near there. David _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Mon Sep 27 03:04:03 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 03:04:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road In-Reply-To: References: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> Message-ID: <08422460-9862-4A4D-9D76-79A0D75F7D13@frontier.com> Thanks. The development was in Cornelius, the pipe was in Forest Grove on School District land. Any idea who got the bill? David On Sep 26, 2010, at 8:48 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > It is the storm sewer upgrade required by CWS for the WalMart parking lot water quality facility . The existing storm ditch was not adequate to handle the increased flow. > > DH From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 06:37:33 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 06:37:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A not so Hosstyle Greeting For You today Message-ID: <10443-4CA09E1D-102@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Monday :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield2.html to much wood cutting yesterday... me and my katts are going back to bed..... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/719fc87e/attachment.html From canam58 at msn.com Mon Sep 27 09:30:58 2010 From: canam58 at msn.com (DWIGHT HOLMES) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] The long and winding road In-Reply-To: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> <08422460-9862-4A4D-9D76-79A0D75F7D13@frontier.com> References: <24139369-2986-4B42-ACAF-051002F510FB@frontier.com> <08422460-9862-4A4D-9D76-79A0D75F7D13@frontier.com> Message-ID: I believe there is an existing utility easement , and I would think the developer/builder would be paying to do it. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Morelli To: Forest Grove local interests list Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [Grovenet] The long and winding road Thanks. The development was in Cornelius, the pipe was in Forest Grove on School District land. Any idea who got the bill? David On Sep 26, 2010, at 8:48 PM, DWIGHT HOLMES wrote: > It is the storm sewer upgrade required by CWS for the WalMart parking lot water quality facility . The existing storm ditch was not adequate to handle the increased flow. > > DH _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 12:41:03 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:41:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Steve, A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's ridiculous considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing their entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were between the proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line steadily diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a Hail Mary pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball and the game was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an honorable stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by other influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already weakened immune system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile nature of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, Winco, etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business like Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had such competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of a risk, but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business plan, but a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the company itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as Walmart had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a heartless, compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying waste to local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my personal opinion. It is fact. I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their own legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I think they made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the New Age of our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign supreme. It doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than your competitor, customers will flock to your door. I will sadly miss Grande. jimz On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: > I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one in > Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the owners > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. > -----Original Message----- > From: "donkelly" > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: donkelly , > Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From dafracks at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:27:23 2010 From: dafracks at hotmail.com (Tracy Irwin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:27:23 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367>, <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367>, <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, Message-ID: I can tell you that a great deal of thought and effort was made when the Hanks/Grande owners made the decision to re-tool their whole business. So that allegation is nonsense. Walmart desperately wanted a foothold in Washington County and Cornelius on the heels of several ill fated decisions by Metro to limit other means of industrial/business income welcomed them with open arms. Don't even get me started on the leadership in place in Cornelius at the time the decision was made. The less I say about that person the better. What truly makes me sad is that the folks who frequent Wal-Mart are seemingly ingnorant to the damage they are causing to this country by always aways finding the low price. I would gladly pay a nickle more for something, knowing that my nickle meant another person was boosted above the poverty line with a decent job here in America. Nothing I haven't said already ad nauseum. I am grateful the traffic hasn't been horrible. Something I was wrong about (I think. I NEVER drive that way anymore) which benefits my neighbors to the West. The rest, well it's just one big disgusted don't say I didn't tell you so. > From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:41:03 -0700 > To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Steve, > > A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain > Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the owners > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's ridiculous > considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing their > entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were between the > proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line steadily > diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a Hail Mary > pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball and the game > was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an honorable > stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by other > influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the > final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already weakened immune > system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. > > I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile nature > of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, Winco, > etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the > competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business like > Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had such > competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of a risk, > but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business plan, but > a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the company > itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as Walmart > had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a heartless, > compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying waste to > local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my personal > opinion. It is fact. > > I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their own > legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I think they > made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the New Age of > our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign > workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign supreme. It > doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than your > competitor, customers will flock to your door. > > I will sadly miss Grande. > > jimz > > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: > > > I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one in > > Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the owners > > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "donkelly" > > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Reply-To: donkelly , > > Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 27 14:41:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:41:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Well and cogently put, Jimz. Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the middle and working classes. I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can do is keep kicking. WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Steve, > > A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain > Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the > owners > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's ridiculous > considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing > their > entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were > between the > proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line steadily > diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a Hail > Mary > pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball and > the game > was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an honorable > stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by other > influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) > drove the > final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already weakened > immune > system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. > > I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile > nature > of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, > Winco, > etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the > competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box > business like > Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had such > competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of > a risk, > but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business > plan, but > a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the company > itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as > Walmart > had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a heartless, > compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying > waste to > local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my > personal > opinion. It is fact. > > I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support > their own > legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I > think they > made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the > New Age of > our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign > workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign > supreme. It > doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than your > competitor, customers will flock to your door. > > I will sadly miss Grande. > > jimz > > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: > >> I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The >> one in >> Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the >> owners >> didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "donkelly" >> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Reply-To: donkelly , >> Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Sep 27 14:50:03 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:50:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E4A25E14@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Re the not-so-rich defenders of Wal-Mart...Marx coined a term that helps "understand" them--false consciousness. See E. P. Thompson's magisterial _The Making of the English Working Class_...and what he found about the early victims of the Industrial Revolution and how they ultimately could not see that their best interests were not identical to those of the factory owners. --Mike -----Original Message----- From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:42 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Well and cogently put, Jimz. Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the middle and working classes. I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can do is keep kicking. WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Steve, > > A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain > Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the > owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's > ridiculous considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in > changing their entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe > they were between the proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their > bottom line steadily diminishing (through outside influences) and had > to complete a Hail Mary pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they > fumbled the ball and the game was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of > trying, they made an honorable stand, but in a shaky economy, and > already severely weakened by other influences, they succumbed to > Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the final nail into the coffin. > Like a person with an already weakened immune system, even a common > cold can lead to a tragic end. > > I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile > nature of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred > Meyer, Winco, > etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the > competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business > like Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had > such competition? To any other business, it would have been too much > of a risk, but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their > business plan, but a small investment when considering the wealthy > status of the company itself. I believe things are beginning to fall > into place just as Walmart had planned for them to. No doubt in my > mind. Walmart is a heartless, compassionless profiteer who has a clear > track record of laying waste to local economies for their own gain. It > is no secret, not just my personal opinion. It is fact. > > I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their > own legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I > think they made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods > to the New Age of our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods > made by foreign workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices > reign supreme. It doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper > prices than your competitor, customers will flock to your door. > > I will sadly miss Grande. > > jimz > > > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: > >> I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one >> in Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the >> owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "donkelly" >> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Reply-To: donkelly , >> Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redwagonfun at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:58:42 2010 From: redwagonfun at gmail.com (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:58:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367>, <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com><4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367>, <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, Message-ID: <18FEE314E2634CD7A30A0EF203464141@JeffVAIO> I think one of the reasons WalMart is so successful is because our citizenry is not able to effectively evaluate the quality of products. Therefore they can only concern themselves with price. For example there can be huge differences among the quality of 100% cotton fabrics, but most people aren't able to recognize the various factors. But a higher quality cotton, will wear much longer, require less laundering and may even be cheaper in the long run. Shoes are another example. Kids today may have foot problems in the future, because so many of them wear shoes which have no arch support and fit poorly. Not to mention that cheaper construction (glue, rather than stitched), won't have them last as long or wear as well. Because everything we buy these days is of such poor quality, we end up spending more money and filling up our landfills even faster. Not until people start to recognize what poor quality costs, will we get higher quality products. I recently spent a couple of weeks in Germany, and it quickly became obvious that most citizens there, would not buy the poor quality products we buy on a daily basis. One thing that constantly irritates my mom, are clothing items which are plaid. As any good seamstress will tell you, the checks should line up at the side seams. But invariably in the states, none of them line up. But while in Germany, we happened to check and every plaid item we looked at lined up at the seams. We aren't smart enough or educated enough to recognize the difference between a high quality product and a poor one. Don't even get me started on the quality of our produce which is sold in the stores.... (poor quality produce is lacking in nutritive value, which might be yet another reason for the health of Americans...) -marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracy Irwin" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 PM To: Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > I can tell you that a great deal of thought and effort was made when the > Hanks/Grande owners made the decision to re-tool their whole business. > So that allegation is nonsense. > > Walmart desperately wanted a foothold in Washington County and Cornelius > on the heels of several ill fated decisions by Metro to limit other means > of industrial/business income welcomed them with open arms. > > Don't even get me started on the leadership in place in Cornelius at the > time the decision was made. The less I say about that person the better. > > What truly makes me sad is that the folks who frequent Wal-Mart are > seemingly ingnorant to the damage they are causing to this country by > always aways finding the low price. I would gladly pay a nickle more for > something, knowing that my nickle meant another person was boosted above > the poverty line with a decent job here in America. > > Nothing I haven't said already ad nauseum. > > I am grateful the traffic hasn't been horrible. Something I was wrong > about (I think. I NEVER drive that way anymore) which benefits my > neighbors to the West. > > The rest, well it's just one big disgusted don't say I didn't tell you so. > > > > > > > >> From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com >> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:41:03 -0700 >> To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >> >> Steve, >> >> A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain >> Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the owners >> didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's ridiculous >> considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing their >> entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were between >> the >> proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line steadily >> diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a Hail Mary >> pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball and the >> game >> was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an honorable >> stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by other >> influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the >> final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already weakened immune >> system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. >> >> I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile >> nature >> of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, Winco, >> etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the >> competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business like >> Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had such >> competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of a >> risk, >> but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business plan, >> but >> a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the company >> itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as Walmart >> had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a heartless, >> compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying waste to >> local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my personal >> opinion. It is fact. >> >> I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their own >> legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I think >> they >> made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the New Age >> of >> our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign >> workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign supreme. It >> doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than your >> competitor, customers will flock to your door. >> >> I will sadly miss Grande. >> >> jimz >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: >> >> > I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one in >> > Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the >> > owners >> > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: "donkelly" >> > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >> > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list >> > Reply-To: donkelly , >> > Forest Grove local interests list >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > GroveNet mailing list >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 27 15:56:26 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:56:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E4A25E14@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E4A25E14@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <1E2B5CFE-6824-482E-A25A-5688FADEB30E@teleport.com> Thanks, Mike! WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Re the not-so-rich defenders of Wal-Mart...Marx coined a term that > helps "understand" them--false consciousness. See E. P. Thompson's > magisterial _The Making of the English Working Class_...and what he > found about the early victims of the Industrial Revolution and how > they ultimately could not see that their best interests were not > identical to those of the factory owners. > > --Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet- > bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Walt Wentz > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:42 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Well and cogently put, Jimz. > Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without > salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making > every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication > that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only > because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. > I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring > to the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its > predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually > are NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses > of their own, large or small, and may not even have any great > reserves between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered > by economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up > in righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," > even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the > middle and working classes. > I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle > can do is keep kicking. > WW > On Sep 27, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain >> Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the >> owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's >> ridiculous considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in >> changing their entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe >> they were between the proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw >> their >> bottom line steadily diminishing (through outside influences) and had >> to complete a Hail Mary pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they >> fumbled the ball and the game was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of >> trying, they made an honorable stand, but in a shaky economy, and >> already severely weakened by other influences, they succumbed to >> Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the final nail into the >> coffin. >> Like a person with an already weakened immune system, even a common >> cold can lead to a tragic end. >> >> I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile >> nature of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred >> Meyer, Winco, >> etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the >> competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business >> like Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had >> such competition? To any other business, it would have been too much >> of a risk, but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their >> business plan, but a small investment when considering the wealthy >> status of the company itself. I believe things are beginning to fall >> into place just as Walmart had planned for them to. No doubt in my >> mind. Walmart is a heartless, compassionless profiteer who has a >> clear >> track record of laying waste to local economies for their own >> gain. It >> is no secret, not just my personal opinion. It is fact. >> >> I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their >> own legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I >> think they made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods >> to the New Age of our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap >> goods >> made by foreign workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices >> reign supreme. It doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer >> cheaper >> prices than your competitor, customers will flock to your door. >> >> I will sadly miss Grande. >> >> jimz >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: >> >>> I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one >>> in Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say >>> the >>> owners didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "donkelly" >>> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >>> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 >>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>> Reply-To: donkelly , >>> Forest Grove local interests list >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From dafracks at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 16:07:18 2010 From: dafracks at hotmail.com (Tracy Irwin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:07:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <18FEE314E2634CD7A30A0EF203464141@JeffVAIO> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367>, , <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , , , , , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, , <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, , <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com><4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367>, , <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, , , , <18FEE314E2634CD7A30A0EF203464141@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: oh marian, you are my knidred spirit. It's why I make a lot of my own clothes these days. Too bad I can't make my own shoes... > From: redwagonfun at gmail.com > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:58:42 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > I think one of the reasons WalMart is so successful is because our citizenry > is not able to effectively evaluate the quality of products. Therefore they > can only concern themselves with price. > > For example there can be huge differences among the quality of 100% cotton > fabrics, but most people aren't able to recognize the various factors. But > a higher quality cotton, will wear much longer, require less laundering and > may even be cheaper in the long run. Shoes are another example. Kids today > may have foot problems in the future, because so many of them wear shoes > which have no arch support and fit poorly. Not to mention that cheaper > construction (glue, rather than stitched), won't have them last as long or > wear as well. > > Because everything we buy these days is of such poor quality, we end up > spending more money and filling up our landfills even faster. Not until > people start to recognize what poor quality costs, will we get higher > quality products. > > I recently spent a couple of weeks in Germany, and it quickly became obvious > that most citizens there, would not buy the poor quality products we buy on > a daily basis. One thing that constantly irritates my mom, are clothing > items which are plaid. As any good seamstress will tell you, the checks > should line up at the side seams. But invariably in the states, none of > them line up. But while in Germany, we happened to check and every plaid > item we looked at lined up at the seams. > > We aren't smart enough or educated enough to recognize the difference > between a high quality product and a poor one. Don't even get me started on > the quality of our produce which is sold in the stores.... (poor quality > produce is lacking in nutritive value, which might be yet another reason for > the health of Americans...) > > -marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Tracy Irwin" > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 PM > To: > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > > > > I can tell you that a great deal of thought and effort was made when the > > Hanks/Grande owners made the decision to re-tool their whole business. > > So that allegation is nonsense. > > > > Walmart desperately wanted a foothold in Washington County and Cornelius > > on the heels of several ill fated decisions by Metro to limit other means > > of industrial/business income welcomed them with open arms. > > > > Don't even get me started on the leadership in place in Cornelius at the > > time the decision was made. The less I say about that person the better. > > > > What truly makes me sad is that the folks who frequent Wal-Mart are > > seemingly ingnorant to the damage they are causing to this country by > > always aways finding the low price. I would gladly pay a nickle more for > > something, knowing that my nickle meant another person was boosted above > > the poverty line with a decent job here in America. > > > > Nothing I haven't said already ad nauseum. > > > > I am grateful the traffic hasn't been horrible. Something I was wrong > > about (I think. I NEVER drive that way anymore) which benefits my > > neighbors to the West. > > > > The rest, well it's just one big disgusted don't say I didn't tell you so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com > >> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:41:03 -0700 > >> To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com > >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > >> > >> Steve, > >> > >> A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain > >> Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the owners > >> didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's ridiculous > >> considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing their > >> entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were between > >> the > >> proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line steadily > >> diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a Hail Mary > >> pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball and the > >> game > >> was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an honorable > >> stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by other > >> influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) drove the > >> final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already weakened immune > >> system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. > >> > >> I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile > >> nature > >> of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, Winco, > >> etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the > >> competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box business like > >> Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had such > >> competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of a > >> risk, > >> but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business plan, > >> but > >> a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the company > >> itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as Walmart > >> had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a heartless, > >> compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying waste to > >> local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my personal > >> opinion. It is fact. > >> > >> I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support their own > >> legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I think > >> they > >> made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the New Age > >> of > >> our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign > >> workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign supreme. It > >> doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than your > >> competitor, customers will flock to your door. > >> > >> I will sadly miss Grande. > >> > >> jimz > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve wrote: > >> > >> > I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The one in > >> > Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the > >> > owners > >> > didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: "donkelly" > >> > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 > >> > To: Forest Grove local interests list > >> > Reply-To: donkelly , > >> > Forest Grove local interests list > >> > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > GroveNet mailing list > >> > GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 27 16:13:34 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:13:34 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <18FEE314E2634CD7A30A0EF203464141@JeffVAIO> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367>, <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com><4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367>, <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, <18FEE314E2634CD7A30A0EF203464141@JeffVAIO> Message-ID: Pride in workmanship is one difference between fairly-paid, experienced employees and desperate, abused serfs in a third-world sweatshop. WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Marian Cakarnis wrote: > I think one of the reasons WalMart is so successful is because our > citizenry > is not able to effectively evaluate the quality of products. > Therefore they > can only concern themselves with price. > > For example there can be huge differences among the quality of 100% > cotton > fabrics, but most people aren't able to recognize the various > factors. But > a higher quality cotton, will wear much longer, require less > laundering and > may even be cheaper in the long run. Shoes are another example. > Kids today > may have foot problems in the future, because so many of them wear > shoes > which have no arch support and fit poorly. Not to mention that > cheaper > construction (glue, rather than stitched), won't have them last as > long or > wear as well. > > Because everything we buy these days is of such poor quality, we > end up > spending more money and filling up our landfills even faster. Not > until > people start to recognize what poor quality costs, will we get higher > quality products. > > I recently spent a couple of weeks in Germany, and it quickly > became obvious > that most citizens there, would not buy the poor quality products > we buy on > a daily basis. One thing that constantly irritates my mom, are > clothing > items which are plaid. As any good seamstress will tell you, the > checks > should line up at the side seams. But invariably in the states, > none of > them line up. But while in Germany, we happened to check and every > plaid > item we looked at lined up at the seams. > > We aren't smart enough or educated enough to recognize the difference > between a high quality product and a poor one. Don't even get me > started on > the quality of our produce which is sold in the stores.... (poor > quality > produce is lacking in nutritive value, which might be yet another > reason for > the health of Americans...) > > -marian > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Tracy Irwin" > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 2:27 PM > To: > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > >> >> I can tell you that a great deal of thought and effort was made >> when the >> Hanks/Grande owners made the decision to re-tool their whole >> business. >> So that allegation is nonsense. >> >> Walmart desperately wanted a foothold in Washington County and >> Cornelius >> on the heels of several ill fated decisions by Metro to limit >> other means >> of industrial/business income welcomed them with open arms. >> >> Don't even get me started on the leadership in place in Cornelius >> at the >> time the decision was made. The less I say about that person the >> better. >> >> What truly makes me sad is that the folks who frequent Wal-Mart are >> seemingly ingnorant to the damage they are causing to this country by >> always aways finding the low price. I would gladly pay a nickle >> more for >> something, knowing that my nickle meant another person was boosted >> above >> the poverty line with a decent job here in America. >> >> Nothing I haven't said already ad nauseum. >> >> I am grateful the traffic hasn't been horrible. Something I was >> wrong >> about (I think. I NEVER drive that way anymore) which benefits my >> neighbors to the West. >> >> The rest, well it's just one big disgusted don't say I didn't tell >> you so. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com >>> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:41:03 -0700 >>> To: nospam03 at comcast.net; grovenet at rdrop.com >>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> A major face lift would have cost a lot of money, money I'm certain >>> Hank's/Grande didn't have. And as far as your assumption that the >>> owners >>> didn't want to make the effort to stay in business, that's >>> ridiculous >>> considering the fact that they took a monumental risk in changing >>> their >>> entire venue to attract new customers. No, I believe they were >>> between >>> the >>> proverbial rock and a hard place, they saw their bottom line >>> steadily >>> diminishing (through outside influences) and had to complete a >>> Hail Mary >>> pass to stay in the game. Unfortunately, they fumbled the ball >>> and the >>> game >>> was over. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying, they made an >>> honorable >>> stand, but in a shaky economy, and already severely weakened by >>> other >>> influences, they succumbed to Walmart who (happily, I'm sure,) >>> drove the >>> final nail into the coffin. Like a person with an already >>> weakened immune >>> system, even a common cold can lead to a tragic end. >>> >>> I believe the Walmart research folks were well aware of the fragile >>> nature >>> of the few remaining businesses in the area (Grande, Fred Meyer, >>> Winco, >>> etc.) and were certain that their might could quickly topple the >>> competition. Think about it, why would a juggernaut big box >>> business like >>> Walmart decide to invest millions in a business that already had >>> such >>> competition? To any other business, it would have been too much of a >>> risk, >>> but for Walmart, it was not only a perfect fit for their business >>> plan, >>> but >>> a small investment when considering the wealthy status of the >>> company >>> itself. I believe things are beginning to fall into place just as >>> Walmart >>> had planned for them to. No doubt in my mind. Walmart is a >>> heartless, >>> compassionless profiteer who has a clear track record of laying >>> waste to >>> local economies for their own gain. It is no secret, not just my >>> personal >>> opinion. It is fact. >>> >>> I also don't think the City of Cornelius did enough to support >>> their own >>> legacy businesses, dumping them in their hour of greatest need. I >>> think >>> they >>> made a conscious decision to sacrifice Hanks/Grande Foods to the >>> New Age >>> of >>> our economy. Big box businesses who sell cheap goods made by foreign >>> workers. In this economy rock bottom "bargain" prices reign >>> supreme. It >>> doesn't matter who you are, if you can offer cheaper prices than >>> your >>> competitor, customers will flock to your door. >>> >>> I will sadly miss Grande. >>> >>> jimz >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I noticed that the store hadn't had a face lift in 40 years. The >>>> one in >>>> Hillsboro is about the same only kept up a bit better. I'd say the >>>> owners >>>> didn't want to make the effort to stay in business. >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "donkelly" >>>> Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com >>>> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 10:08:24 >>>> To: Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Reply-To: donkelly , >>>> Forest Grove local interests list >>>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 16:13:53 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:50:03 -0700 Message-ID: <25437-4CA12531-2867@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Mike... remind me.... didn't Hanks before they changed their name ... have one of the nursery and tool department anywhere? as I'm typing this .. I just noticed it is 87* at 4pm.. that 1/ 4of rain we had this am was kind of wasted ..... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/1a31ab42/attachment.html From steelem at pacificu.edu Mon Sep 27 16:21:11 2010 From: steelem at pacificu.edu (Steele, Mike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <25437-4CA12531-2867@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> References: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:50:03 -0700,<25437-4CA12531-2867@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA92@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Hi Hoss...yes, Hanks had a pretty good garden area and something like hardware at the other end of the store... --Miike ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Alan Domenghini [RosesFromHoss at webtv.net] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Mike... remind me.... didn't Hanks before they changed their name ... have one of the nursery and tool department anywhere? as I'm typing this .. I just noticed it is 87* at 4pm.. that 1/ 4of rain we had this am was kind of wasted ..... From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 27 17:20:03 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 17:20:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA92@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> References: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:50:03 -0700,<25437-4CA12531-2867@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA92@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: They even had beer brewing and winemaking sections, all kinds of crafts supplies and an extensive hunting and fishing section. WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Steele, Mike wrote: > Hi Hoss...yes, Hanks had a pretty good garden area and something > like hardware at the other end of the store... > > --Miike > ________________________________________ > From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On > Behalf Of Alan Domenghini [RosesFromHoss at webtv.net] > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:13 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > Mike... remind me.... didn't Hanks before they changed their name ... > have one of the nursery and tool department anywhere? > > as I'm typing this .. I just noticed it is 87* at 4pm.. that 1/ 4of > rain we had this am was kind of wasted ..... > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ocollaugh at comcast.net Mon Sep 27 20:35:39 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:35:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: References: "Steele, Mike" 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:50:03 -0700,<25437-4CA12531-2867@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net> <8D94A946E17E9941AE94FC3AE11CAB7E03E052AA92@everest.ad.pacificu.edu> Message-ID: <4CA16285.000007.03456@DON-B2514E06367> I liked the store then and visited often. Don -------Original Message------- From: Steele, Mike Date: 9/27/2010 4:22:05 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Hi Hoss...yes, Hanks had a pretty good garden area and something like hardware at the other end of the store... --Miike ________________________________________ From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Alan Domenghini [RosesFromHoss at webtv.net] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:13 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Mike... remind me.... didn't Hanks before they changed their name ... have one of the nursery and tool department anywhere? as I'm typing this .. I just noticed it is 87* at 4pm.. that 1/ 4of rain we had this am was kind of wasted ..... _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100927/6f248f3e/attachment.gif From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 22:25:53 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:25:53 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Walt I share your befuddlement. It's one of those cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And I agree, most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected by the dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the average consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of talking heads in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear and hate mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It said all the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the truth (I can only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the government is (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal away all their rights while emptying the government coffers of every taxpayer penny. It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot traction with the right. An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against things that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, and what it will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to allow others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) then you have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or anything that the finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob rule, they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice I didn't say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river and they want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the master manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads without scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for command of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea Party. All words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of ships without rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, it's useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people who gather collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for theirs is a battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their faith in God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief system, once it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof in the world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false prophets. If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the fight, you keep up the lies. jimz On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Well and cogently put, Jimz. > Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without > salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making > every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication > that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only > because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. > I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to > the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its > predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are > NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of > their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves > between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by > economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in > righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," > even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the > middle and working classes. > I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can > do is keep kicking. > WW > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:24:29 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:24:29 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: Jim Zaleski 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: <10429-4CA18A1D-11873@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hey folks......... I wonder how much arm twisting we would have to do .... to talk Mark and his family to add a nursery to his Ace Hardware store, or does Fred's already have that sowed up? still 78* at this time? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/1018acd6/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Mon Sep 27 23:38:11 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:38:11 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <10429-4CA18A1D-11873@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> References: <10429-4CA18A1D-11873@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <329DB2AB-90F0-4FEA-9C55-B35CCDB9AAE2@teleport.com> Freddie's and Bi-Mart both have nursery sections, and Freddie's is actually fairly good. I got some watermelon plants from there that actually survived and bore fruit this year. WW On Sep 27, 2010, at 11:24 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > Hey folks......... > I wonder how much arm twisting we would have to do .... to talk Mark > and his family to add a nursery to his Ace Hardware store, or does > Fred's already have that sowed up? > > still 78* at this time? > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:43:30 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:43:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10430-4CA18E92-9171@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html Wish I had sent this earlier, I forgot there are not very many night owls as an OleHoss., except maybe for David M, and Obi Won oh yeah, I meant live plants at Marks,,,, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/dc98c2af/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:44:00 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10429-4CA18EB0-11903@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html Wish I had sent this earlier, I forgot there are not very many night owls as an OleHoss., except maybe for David M, and Obi Won oh yeah, I meant live plants at Marks,,,, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/d0059213/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:44:46 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10429-4CA18EDE-11906@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html Wish I had sent this earlier, I forgot there are not very many night owls as an OleHoss., except maybe for David M, and Obi Won oh yeah, I meant live plants at Marks,,,, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/100a1b85/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:46:08 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:46:08 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10429-4CA18F30-11908@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/bba7880b/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:46:55 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:46:55 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10429-4CA18F5F-11912@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:48:05 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:48:05 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <10429-4CA18FA5-11914@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - It`s Bed Time :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Mon Sep 27 23:50:28 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:50:28 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:38:11 -0700 Message-ID: <10432-4CA19034-5174@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> thanks Walt ... I really forgot about freds... http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/garfield3.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100927/815f5461/attachment.html From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 06:42:52 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:42:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you haven't been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger towards them appears to be an attack against something that threatens you? Adam Jim Zaleski wrote: > Walt > > I share your befuddlement. It's one of those > cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And I agree, > most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected by the > dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the average > consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of talking heads > in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear and hate > mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It said all > the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the truth (I can > only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the government is > (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal away all > their rights while emptying the government coffers of every taxpayer penny. > It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot traction with > the right. > > An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against things > that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, and what it > will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to allow > others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) then you > have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or anything that the > finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob rule, > they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice I didn't > say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river and they > want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the master > manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads without > scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for command > of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea Party. All > words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of ships without > rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, it's > useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people who gather > collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for theirs is a > battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their faith in > God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed > righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief system, once > it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof in the > world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false prophets. > If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the fight, > you keep up the lies. > > jimz > > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > >> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >> every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication >> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only >> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to >> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are >> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves >> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in >> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >> middle and working classes. >> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can >> do is keep kicking. >> WW >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 28 08:35:42 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Hosstyle Greeting For You Message-ID: <6040-4CA20B4E-831@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Good Morning :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html7/littleblubirds.html from the looks of what I see from my deck this morning, and it is going to be a fine day ...almost 70* already -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100928/35253566/attachment.html From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 28 08:47:13 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:47:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just real curious Message-ID: <6039-4CA20E01-1229@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I was just reading the Hillsboro Argus (COURIER-MAIL) story on it's front page about Grande Foods closing 10/24/10. Has there been any discussion of any kind of what will, or will not be put in it's place? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100928/a4400454/attachment.html From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 09:14:33 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:14:33 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim seems to be on the right track. No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream Americans. I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- aged or older, and many riding some personal obsession having to to with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the stacking of the Supreme Court. (to be perfectly charitable, I did not do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of course). In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such as you heard in the 1930s. Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were the assigned shock troops. Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you haven't > been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are > associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger > towards them appears to be an attack against something that > threatens you? > > Adam > > Jim Zaleski wrote: >> Walt >> >> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >> I agree, >> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >> by the >> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >> average >> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >> talking heads >> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >> and hate >> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >> said all >> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >> truth (I can >> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >> government is >> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >> away all >> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >> taxpayer penny. >> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >> traction with >> the right. >> >> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >> things >> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >> and what it >> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >> allow >> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >> then you >> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >> anything that the >> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >> rule, >> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >> I didn't >> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >> and they >> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >> master >> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >> without >> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >> command >> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >> Party. All >> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >> ships without >> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >> it's >> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >> who gather >> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >> theirs is a >> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >> faith in >> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >> system, once >> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >> in the >> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >> prophets. >> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >> fight, >> you keep up the lies. >> >> jimz >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >> wrote: >> >> >>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication >>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only >>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to >>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are >>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves >>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in >>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>> middle and working classes. >>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can >>> do is keep kicking. >>> WW >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 09:28:17 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:28:17 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just real curious In-Reply-To: <6039-4CA20E01-1229@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <6039-4CA20E01-1229@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <52E5E8CA-4B64-4149-9E0C-1452CDE8154E@teleport.com> Hey Hoss: All I've heard is that the building will be up for lease, so it's gonna be a crap-shoot of what (if anything!) will go in its place. Many Wal-Mart towns in the east have downtowns full of empty storefronts with broken windows. We can hope that doesn't happen here (although, as my vulgar old Uncle Emmit used to say, "you can hope in one hand...") I suppose it's possible some social facility might go there... a community hall, maybe... but the rent and upkeep won't be cheap! Maybe a storefront church? Plenty of room, at any rate. I'll be rather sorry if the big mural on the back wall gets painted over. It was much more fun to look at than the bleak hodgepodge of years past. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I was just reading the Hillsboro Argus (COURIER-MAIL) story on it's > front page about Grande Foods closing 10/24/10. > Has there been any discussion of any kind of what will, or will not be > put in it's place? > > ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) > > > rain up date > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redwagonfun at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 09:32:03 2010 From: redwagonfun at gmail.com (Marian Cakarnis) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:32:03 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> Message-ID: <87CD90C66F894E638DB49F32A2EB8870@JeffVAIO> Bravo to both Walt & Jim for describing our current situation so well - depressing as it is.... Now if only someone had a plan to keep our citizenry from being so damn fearful of everything and everyone.... -Marian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Wentz" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:14 AM To: "Forest Grove local interests list" Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim > seems to be on the right track. > No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party > say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream > Americans. I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- > aged or older, and many riding some personal obsession having to to > with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, > eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing > Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early > 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, > income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use > planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies > earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands > off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity > with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." > Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing > corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, > outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance > company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people > losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, > the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of > the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the > stacking of the Supreme Court. (to be perfectly charitable, I did not > do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of > them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important > things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of > course). > In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it > had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in > shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or > or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such > as you heard in the 1930s. > Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of > young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when > "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has > written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults > and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were > the assigned shock troops. > Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? > You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating > atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, > tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as > anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may > be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is > merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. > WW > On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you haven't >> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >> threatens you? >> >> Adam >> >> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> Walt >>> >>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>> I agree, >>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>> by the >>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>> average >>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>> talking heads >>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>> and hate >>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>> said all >>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>> truth (I can >>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>> government is >>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>> away all >>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>> taxpayer penny. >>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>> traction with >>> the right. >>> >>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>> things >>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>> and what it >>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>> allow >>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>> then you >>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>> anything that the >>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>> rule, >>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>> I didn't >>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>> and they >>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>> master >>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>> without >>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>> command >>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>> Party. All >>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>> ships without >>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>> it's >>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>> who gather >>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>> theirs is a >>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>> faith in >>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>> system, once >>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>> in the >>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>> prophets. >>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>> fight, >>> you keep up the lies. >>> >>> jimz >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication >>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only >>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to >>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are >>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves >>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in >>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>> middle and working classes. >>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can >>>> do is keep kicking. >>>> WW >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From adamsmayer at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 10:47:59 2010 From: adamsmayer at gmail.com (Adam Mayer) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:47:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> Walt Wentz wrote: > Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim > seems to be on the right track. > No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party > say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream > Americans. These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work for a living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, their families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your definition of a mainstream American then? > I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- > aged or older, Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were all white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit younger, but still all white. > and many riding some personal obsession having to to > with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, > eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing > Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early > 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, > income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use > planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies > earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands > off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity > with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." > Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing > corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, > outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance > company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people > losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, > the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of > the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the > stacking of the Supreme Court. Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't say I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly have a platform of issues. > (to be perfectly charitable, I did not > do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of > them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important > things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of > course). > In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it > had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in > shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or > or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such > as you heard in the 1930s. > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't understand why people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? > Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of > young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when > "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has > written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults > and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were > the assigned shock troops. > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The tens of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take years to rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that turned into the most violent riot in the history of America. Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being manipulated by a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, why has there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of their events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how many do you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? > Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? > You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating > atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, > tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as > anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may > be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is > merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. > WW > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. Look at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is getting people who normally were not politically involved before, involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and not the liberal ranks. Maybe this is what is bothering you? Adam > On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > >> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you haven't >> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >> threatens you? >> >> Adam >> >> Jim Zaleski wrote: >> >>> Walt >>> >>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>> I agree, >>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>> by the >>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>> average >>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>> talking heads >>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>> and hate >>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>> said all >>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>> truth (I can >>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>> government is >>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>> away all >>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>> taxpayer penny. >>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>> traction with >>> the right. >>> >>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>> things >>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>> and what it >>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>> allow >>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>> then you >>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>> anything that the >>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>> rule, >>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>> I didn't >>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>> and they >>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>> master >>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>> without >>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>> command >>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>> Party. All >>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>> ships without >>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>> it's >>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>> who gather >>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>> theirs is a >>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>> faith in >>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>> system, once >>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>> in the >>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>> prophets. >>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>> fight, >>> you keep up the lies. >>> >>> jimz >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication >>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only >>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to >>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are >>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves >>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in >>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>> middle and working classes. >>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can >>>> do is keep kicking. >>>> WW >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ejbaeza at mac.com Tue Sep 28 11:10:18 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:10:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <209F5356-C305-4EF8-8E6E-3ADE27316E4D@mac.com> Right on Jim! E. J. Baeza On Sep 27, 2010, at 10:25 PM, Jim Zaleski wrote: > Walt > > I share your befuddlement. It's one of those > cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And > I agree, > most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected by > the > dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the > average > consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of > talking heads > in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear > and hate > mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It > said all > the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the > truth (I can > only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the > government is > (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal > away all > their rights while emptying the government coffers of every > taxpayer penny. > It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot > traction with > the right. > > An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against > things > that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, and > what it > will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to > allow > others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) > then you > have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or anything > that the > finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob > rule, > they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice I > didn't > say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river > and they > want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the master > manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads > without > scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for > command > of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea > Party. All > words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of > ships without > rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, it's > useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people who > gather > collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for > theirs is a > battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their > faith in > God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed > righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief > system, once > it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof > in the > world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false > prophets. > If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the > fight, > you keep up the lies. > > jimz > > > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz > wrote: > >> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >> every effort they could to preserve their business. The implication >> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant only >> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly spring to >> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves usually are >> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great reserves >> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear up in >> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >> middle and working classes. >> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of principle can >> do is keep kicking. >> WW >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 11:42:00 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:42:00 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work > for a > living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, > their > families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you > suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your > definition of a mainstream American then? People of all races, all ages, all income levels, who are willing to embrace American ideals-- namely not demonizing large numbers of other mainstream Americans as "Liberals," "Comyanists," "closet Muslims," "socialists" or whatever. My own definition of a mainstream American would also be somebody who believes in freedom of conscience and freedom of thought-- thought, not mob-level emotion-- and somebody who believes in freedom of speech-- not necessarily defined as drowning out any opposing viewpoint with organized yelling. > >> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >> aged or older, > Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of > approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have > been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were > all > white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was > volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit > younger, but still all white. So Democrats and gays are not distributed throughout all segments of American society? Say, I got this nice bridge I think you'd be interested in... Seriously, however, the young and minorities are probably too busy scrabbling for a foothold in this precarious economy to spend time or energy in political events. > >> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people >> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >> stacking of the Supreme Court. > Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large > platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't > say > I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly > have a platform of issues. "Platform" implies some sort of coherent, thoughtful construction, that holds together and provides solid support for the party line. The platform of the Tea Party more resembles the aftermath of an explosion in a lumber yard. > >> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >> course). >> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in >> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >> as you heard in the 1930s. >> > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my > college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't > understand why > people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does > anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? Yep, I remember the '60s. As good old Stanislaw Lec says, "He who shouts "Long Live!" ends up paying for the funeral." > >> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >> the assigned shock troops. >> > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The > tens > of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country > has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take > years to > rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that > turned > into the most violent riot in the history of America. Did I say they were violent, or that they were merely intimidating to opposing viewpoints? Of course, violence from the right wing is absolutely unheard of. That lady who got her lights punched out at a political rally in Arizona must have swung at the guy first. > > Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being > manipulated by > a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, > why has > there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of > their > events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how > many do > you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? Damfino. Depends on how many anarchists and soreheads try to ride on the coattails of the event, and the supposedly "liberal" media-- all owned by giant corporations. At the huge anti-war rally in Portland some years ago, I saw nothing but peace and good times. The next day, the newspapers were playing up the shenanigans of a half-dozen anarchist punkers who burned a flag, or did some similar brilliant intellectual exercise. > >> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >> WW >> An' that's my story an' i'm stickin' to it-- and I've wasted too much of a beautiful summer day already. We won't get many more, alas.. WW > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a > good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the > time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job > with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. > Look > at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically > everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. > > If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they > support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest > that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would > say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to > save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is > getting people who normally were not politically involved before, > involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a > while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and > not the liberal ranks. > > Maybe this is what is bothering you? > > Adam > >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>> haven't >>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>> threatens you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>> I agree, >>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>> by the >>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>> average >>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>> talking heads >>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>> and hate >>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>> said all >>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>> truth (I can >>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>> government is >>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>> away all >>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>> taxpayer penny. >>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>> traction with >>>> the right. >>>> >>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>> things >>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>> and what it >>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>> allow >>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>> then you >>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>> anything that the >>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>> rule, >>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>> I didn't >>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>> and they >>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>> master >>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>> without >>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>> command >>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>> Party. All >>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>> ships without >>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>> it's >>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>> who gather >>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>> theirs is a >>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>> faith in >>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>> system, once >>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>> in the >>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>> prophets. >>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>> fight, >>>> you keep up the lies. >>>> >>>> jimz >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>> implication >>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>> only >>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>> spring to >>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>> usually are >>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>> reserves >>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>> up in >>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>> principle can >>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 11:52:38 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:52:38 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <372347201-1285699961-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-980001551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I guess you aren't mainstream. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:42:00 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > > These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work > for a > living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, > their > families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you > suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your > definition of a mainstream American then? People of all races, all ages, all income levels, who are willing to embrace American ideals-- namely not demonizing large numbers of other mainstream Americans as "Liberals," "Comyanists," "closet Muslims," "socialists" or whatever. My own definition of a mainstream American would also be somebody who believes in freedom of conscience and freedom of thought-- thought, not mob-level emotion-- and somebody who believes in freedom of speech-- not necessarily defined as drowning out any opposing viewpoint with organized yelling. > >> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >> aged or older, > Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of > approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have > been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were > all > white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was > volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit > younger, but still all white. So Democrats and gays are not distributed throughout all segments of American society? Say, I got this nice bridge I think you'd be interested in... Seriously, however, the young and minorities are probably too busy scrabbling for a foothold in this precarious economy to spend time or energy in political events. > >> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people >> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >> stacking of the Supreme Court. > Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large > platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't > say > I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly > have a platform of issues. "Platform" implies some sort of coherent, thoughtful construction, that holds together and provides solid support for the party line. The platform of the Tea Party more resembles the aftermath of an explosion in a lumber yard. > >> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >> course). >> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in >> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >> as you heard in the 1930s. >> > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my > college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't > understand why > people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does > anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? Yep, I remember the '60s. As good old Stanislaw Lec says, "He who shouts "Long Live!" ends up paying for the funeral." > >> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >> the assigned shock troops. >> > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The > tens > of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country > has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take > years to > rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that > turned > into the most violent riot in the history of America. Did I say they were violent, or that they were merely intimidating to opposing viewpoints? Of course, violence from the right wing is absolutely unheard of. That lady who got her lights punched out at a political rally in Arizona must have swung at the guy first. > > Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being > manipulated by > a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, > why has > there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of > their > events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how > many do > you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? Damfino. Depends on how many anarchists and soreheads try to ride on the coattails of the event, and the supposedly "liberal" media-- all owned by giant corporations. At the huge anti-war rally in Portland some years ago, I saw nothing but peace and good times. The next day, the newspapers were playing up the shenanigans of a half-dozen anarchist punkers who burned a flag, or did some similar brilliant intellectual exercise. > >> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >> WW >> An' that's my story an' i'm stickin' to it-- and I've wasted too much of a beautiful summer day already. We won't get many more, alas.. WW > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a > good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the > time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job > with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. > Look > at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically > everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. > > If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they > support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest > that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would > say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to > save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is > getting people who normally were not politically involved before, > involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a > while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and > not the liberal ranks. > > Maybe this is what is bothering you? > > Adam > >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>> haven't >>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>> threatens you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>> I agree, >>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>> by the >>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>> average >>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>> talking heads >>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>> and hate >>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>> said all >>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>> truth (I can >>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>> government is >>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>> away all >>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>> taxpayer penny. >>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>> traction with >>>> the right. >>>> >>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>> things >>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>> and what it >>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>> allow >>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>> then you >>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>> anything that the >>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>> rule, >>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>> I didn't >>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>> and they >>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>> master >>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>> without >>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>> command >>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>> Party. All >>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>> ships without >>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>> it's >>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>> who gather >>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>> theirs is a >>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>> faith in >>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>> system, once >>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>> in the >>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>> prophets. >>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>> fight, >>>> you keep up the lies. >>>> >>>> jimz >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>> implication >>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>> only >>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>> spring to >>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>> usually are >>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>> reserves >>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>> up in >>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>> principle can >>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > >_______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 28 12:00:39 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:00:39 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just real curious In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <6041-4CA23B57-885@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> I am not going to repeat what Walt told me when I asked what was going into the empty Grande Building. However, if it were I making the decision for what goes into empty Grande Building.. I would convert it into a new City Hall and Better Library, and Police Department. I'm not saying Corn Towns Cop Shop is not any good, it is a thought from an Ole Ex-Calif Cop ... they need a bigger building with easy access to the main drag! If we need to raise money, then so be it.. I'll raise all the fuss I can to help! Besides, folks can get Government Grants for anything these days. But ..... then again .... who the hell ever listens to an oleHoss? From ejbaeza at mac.com Tue Sep 28 12:42:52 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:42:52 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Dear Friends, Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I will share some of my personal core values. I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital to an effective democracy. I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper meaning and historical origin. I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that has severed its accountability to "we the people". I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes a criminal. I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide to our government". I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When did progress become a bad word. I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of their neighbors. I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming majority of them have not forgotten this. I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a Democrat". (Wil Rogers) I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. All the best, E. J. On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim >> seems to be on the right track. >> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >> Americans. > These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work > for a > living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, > their > families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you > suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your > definition of a mainstream American then? > >> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >> aged or older, > Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of > approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have > been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were > all > white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was > volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit > younger, but still all white. > >> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people >> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >> stacking of the Supreme Court. > Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large > platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't > say > I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly > have a platform of issues. > >> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >> course). >> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in >> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >> as you heard in the 1930s. >> > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my > college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't > understand why > people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does > anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? > >> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >> the assigned shock troops. >> > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The > tens > of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country > has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take > years to > rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that > turned > into the most violent riot in the history of America. > > Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being > manipulated by > a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, > why has > there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of > their > events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how > many do > you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? > >> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >> WW >> > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a > good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the > time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job > with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. > Look > at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically > everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. > > If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they > support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest > that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would > say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to > save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is > getting people who normally were not politically involved before, > involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a > while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and > not the liberal ranks. > > Maybe this is what is bothering you? > > Adam > >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>> haven't >>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>> threatens you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>> I agree, >>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>> by the >>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>> average >>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>> talking heads >>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>> and hate >>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>> said all >>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>> truth (I can >>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>> government is >>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>> away all >>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>> taxpayer penny. >>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>> traction with >>>> the right. >>>> >>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>> things >>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>> and what it >>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>> allow >>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>> then you >>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>> anything that the >>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>> rule, >>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>> I didn't >>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>> and they >>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>> master >>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>> without >>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>> command >>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>> Party. All >>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>> ships without >>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>> it's >>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>> who gather >>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>> theirs is a >>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>> faith in >>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>> system, once >>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>> in the >>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>> prophets. >>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>> fight, >>>> you keep up the lies. >>>> >>>> jimz >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>> implication >>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>> only >>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>> spring to >>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>> usually are >>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>> reserves >>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>> up in >>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>> principle can >>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 12:26:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:26:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <372347201-1285699961-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-980001551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <372347201-1285699961-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-980001551-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: What, clinging to old American ideals isn't mainstream anymore? Come to think of it, maybe you're right... ;^) No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. --John Donne On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Steve wrote: > I guess you aren't mainstream. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:42:00 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: > >> >> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >> for a >> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >> their >> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >> definition of a mainstream American then? > > People of all races, all ages, all income levels, who are willing to > embrace American ideals-- namely not demonizing large numbers of > other mainstream Americans as "Liberals," "Comyanists," "closet > Muslims," "socialists" or whatever. My own definition of a mainstream > American would also be somebody who believes in freedom of conscience > and freedom of thought-- thought, not mob-level emotion-- and > somebody who believes in freedom of speech-- not necessarily defined > as drowning out any opposing viewpoint with organized yelling. >> >>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>> aged or older, >> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have >> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >> all >> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >> younger, but still all white. > > So Democrats and gays are not distributed throughout all segments of > American society? Say, I got this nice bridge I think you'd be > interested in... > Seriously, however, the young and minorities are probably too busy > scrabbling for a foothold in this precarious economy to spend time or > energy in political events. >> >>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>> people >>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >> say >> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly >> have a platform of issues. > > "Platform" implies some sort of coherent, thoughtful construction, > that holds together and provides solid support for the party line. > The platform of the Tea Party more resembles the aftermath of an > explosion in a lumber yard. >> >>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>> course). >>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>> them in >>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>> >> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my >> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >> understand why >> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does >> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? > > Yep, I remember the '60s. As good old Stanislaw Lec says, "He who > shouts "Long Live!" ends up paying for the funeral." >> >>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >>> the assigned shock troops. >>> >> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >> tens >> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country >> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >> years to >> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >> turned >> into the most violent riot in the history of America. > > Did I say they were violent, or that they were merely intimidating to > opposing viewpoints? > Of course, violence from the right wing is absolutely unheard of. > That lady who got her lights punched out at a political rally in > Arizona must have swung at the guy first. >> >> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >> manipulated by >> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >> why has >> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >> their >> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >> many do >> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? > > Damfino. Depends on how many anarchists and soreheads try to ride on > the coattails of the event, and the supposedly "liberal" media-- all > owned by giant corporations. At the huge anti-war rally in Portland > some years ago, I saw nothing but peace and good times. The next day, > the newspapers were playing up the shenanigans of a half-dozen > anarchist punkers who burned a flag, or did some similar brilliant > intellectual exercise. >> >>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>> WW >>> > > An' that's my story an' i'm stickin' to it-- and I've wasted too much > of a beautiful summer day already. We won't get many more, alas.. > WW > >> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a >> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the >> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job >> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >> Look >> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >> >> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >> suggest >> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >> would >> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to >> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is >> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >> and >> not the liberal ranks. >> >> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >> >> Adam >> >>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>> haven't >>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>> threatens you? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>> >>>>> Walt >>>>> >>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>>> I agree, >>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>> by the >>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>> average >>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>> talking heads >>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>> and hate >>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>>> said all >>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>> truth (I can >>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>> government is >>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>> away all >>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>> traction with >>>>> the right. >>>>> >>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>>> things >>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>> and what it >>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>>> allow >>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>>> then you >>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>> anything that the >>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>>> rule, >>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>>> I didn't >>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>> and they >>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>> master >>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>> without >>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>>> command >>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>> Party. All >>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>> ships without >>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>>> it's >>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>> who gather >>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>> theirs is a >>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>> faith in >>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>> indeed >>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>> system, once >>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>>> in the >>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>> prophets. >>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>>> fight, >>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>> >>>>> jimz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>> making >>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>> implication >>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>> only >>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>> spring to >>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>> usually are >>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>> businesses of >>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>> reserves >>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>> up in >>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>> principle can >>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>> WW >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 12:31:18 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 12:31:18 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] just real curious In-Reply-To: <6041-4CA23B57-885@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> References: <6041-4CA23B57-885@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Say, Hoss, that is a good idea! If the building is structurally sound, it could be made into a central location for ALL the city's important offices and departments... with room for record and materials storage, etc. in the old city buildings. Only other option would be to wait for some new business that was brave or stupid enough to go head-to-head with Wal-Mart, and that might be a long wait. I'm checking out now... gotta go work on the garden. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Alan Domenghini wrote: > I am not going to repeat what Walt told me when I asked what was going > into the empty Grande Building. > However, if it were I making the decision for what goes into empty > Grande Building.. I would convert it into a new City Hall and Better > Library, and Police Department. I'm not saying Corn Towns Cop > Shop is > not any good, it is a thought from an Ole Ex-Calif Cop ... they need a > bigger building with easy access to the main drag! If we need to > raise > money, then so be it.. I'll raise all the fuss I can to help! > Besides, > folks can get Government Grants for anything these days. > But ..... then again .... who the hell ever listens to an oleHoss? > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From allnutt at frontier.com Tue Sep 28 13:54:40 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:54:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Message-ID: Thanks Ed. I agree. Katie On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: > Dear Friends, > Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your > discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a > privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions > involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and > emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the > balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real > improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions > about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives > seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular > choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem > to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. > > The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides > of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into > constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate > response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But > I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to > remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull > decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. > The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the > appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. > > May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what > core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can > agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more > than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of > the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I > will share some of my personal core values. > > I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative > I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too > often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we > should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact > protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against > what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. > I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital > to an effective democracy. > I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the > death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot > afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to > journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. > I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms > fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and > so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as > weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of > view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely > interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for > raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than > not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper > meaning and historical origin. > I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free > enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or > insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are > many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No > enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that > has severed its accountability to "we the people". > I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. > When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral > transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of > assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder > and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes > a criminal. > I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws > were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our > economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by > unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of > lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. > I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom > and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means > "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide > to our government". > I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a > species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the > principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote > our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When > did progress become a bad word. > I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an > interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and > the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of > their neighbors. > I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need > them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming > majority of them have not forgotten this. > I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The > protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for > our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we > are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional > rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the > rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. > "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a > Democrat". (Wil Rogers) > I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one > virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. > Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by > fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. > > All the best, > > E. J. > > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>> Jim >>> seems to be on the right track. >>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>> Americans. >> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >> for a >> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >> their >> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >> definition of a mainstream American then? >> >>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>> aged or older, >> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have >> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >> all >> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >> younger, but still all white. >> >>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>> people >>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >> say >> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly >> have a platform of issues. >> >>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>> course). >>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>> them in >>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>> >> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my >> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >> understand why >> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does >> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >> >>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >>> the assigned shock troops. >>> >> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >> tens >> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country >> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >> years to >> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >> turned >> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >> >> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >> manipulated by >> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >> why has >> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >> their >> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >> many do >> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >> >>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>> WW >>> >> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a >> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the >> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job >> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >> Look >> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >> >> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >> suggest >> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >> would >> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to >> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is >> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >> and >> not the liberal ranks. >> >> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >> >> Adam >> >>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>> haven't >>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>> threatens you? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>> >>>>> Walt >>>>> >>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>>> I agree, >>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>> by the >>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>> average >>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>> talking heads >>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>> and hate >>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>>> said all >>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>> truth (I can >>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>> government is >>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>> away all >>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>> traction with >>>>> the right. >>>>> >>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>>> things >>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>> and what it >>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>>> allow >>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>>> then you >>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>> anything that the >>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>>> rule, >>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>>> I didn't >>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>> and they >>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>> master >>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>> without >>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>>> command >>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>> Party. All >>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>> ships without >>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>>> it's >>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>> who gather >>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>> theirs is a >>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>> faith in >>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>> indeed >>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>> system, once >>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>>> in the >>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>> prophets. >>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>>> fight, >>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>> >>>>> jimz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>> making >>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>> implication >>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>> only >>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>> spring to >>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>> usually are >>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>> businesses of >>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>> reserves >>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>> up in >>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>> principle can >>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>> WW >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:55:47 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:55:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Message-ID: Edward, Excellent, well thought out piece with a lot of salient and topical discussion points. Your self-described political profile is both welcomed and illuminating. It goes to show that not all members of a particular group are alike. And certainly not all Progressives are alike. So goes it for the far right, Republicans, etc. One always has a wide spectrum of beliefs in any large group. One interesting difference I have observed over time, is that while the liberal more progressive side of the isle seems to disagree and argue among themselves a lot more in public, the mainstream right-leaning party folks seem more apt to fall into lock step with each other and give one the perception (or perhaps more appropriately, the miss-perception,) that they are a cohesive and of like-minded group. The doggedly, stubborn Republican blockade of all things "Democrat" or "Obama-esk" since Obama was inaugurated is once such example. But the closely wound conservative ball of string is unraveling, revealing a more chaotic and tangled core. Enter the fringe element. Enter the Tea Party. Enter chaos, confusion and discontent among the faithful. Enter the lunatic fringe that will create a heretofore unseen rift in the straight party line every obedient conservative once followed. The once closely knit GOP is falling apart at the seams, unraveling before our eyes, becoming discordant and rife with an anger and angst generated more from within than from without...a party at war with itself. And what will emerge from this eminent civil war will no doubt be a more moderate, more reasonable, more cooperative middle. As with both sides of the isle, there will always be extremists, the lunatic fringe. But like any bell shaped curve, the preponderance of normalcy lies in the middle. The middle is where the real work is done. And it speaks to your reference for the need to find common ground, to set goals for discussions. To lay down our weapons to free our hands to embrace rather than pummel those with whom we disagree. Great piece. jimz On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: > Dear Friends, > Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your > discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a > privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions > involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and > emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the > balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real > improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions > about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives > seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular > choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem > to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. > > The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides > of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into > constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate > response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But > I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to > remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull > decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. > The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the > appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. > > May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what > core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can > agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more > than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of > the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I > will share some of my personal core values. > > I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative > I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too > often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we > should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact > protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against > what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. > I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital > to an effective democracy. > I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the > death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot > afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to > journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. > I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms > fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and > so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as > weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of > view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely > interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for > raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than > not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper > meaning and historical origin. > I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free > enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or > insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are > many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No > enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that > has severed its accountability to "we the people". > I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. > When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral > transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of > assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder > and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes > a criminal. > I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws > were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our > economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by > unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of > lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. > I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom > and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means > "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide > to our government". > I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a > species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the > principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote > our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When > did progress become a bad word. > I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an > interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and > the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of > their neighbors. > I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need > them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming > majority of them have not forgotten this. > I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The > protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for > our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we > are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional > rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the > rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. > "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a > Democrat". (Wil Rogers) > I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one > virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. > Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by > fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. > > All the best, > > E. J. > > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > > > > > Walt Wentz wrote: > >> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim > >> seems to be on the right track. > >> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party > >> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream > >> Americans. > > These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work > > for a > > living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, > > their > > families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you > > suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your > > definition of a mainstream American then? > > > >> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- > >> aged or older, > > Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of > > approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have > > been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were > > all > > white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was > > volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit > > younger, but still all white. > > > >> and many riding some personal obsession having to to > >> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, > >> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing > >> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early > >> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, > >> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use > >> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies > >> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands > >> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity > >> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." > >> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing > >> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, > >> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance > >> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people > >> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, > >> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of > >> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the > >> stacking of the Supreme Court. > > Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large > > platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't > > say > > I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly > > have a platform of issues. > > > >> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not > >> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of > >> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important > >> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of > >> course). > >> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it > >> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in > >> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or > >> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such > >> as you heard in the 1930s. > >> > > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my > > college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't > > understand why > > people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does > > anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? > > > >> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of > >> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when > >> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has > >> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults > >> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were > >> the assigned shock troops. > >> > > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The > > tens > > of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country > > has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take > > years to > > rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that > > turned > > into the most violent riot in the history of America. > > > > Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being > > manipulated by > > a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, > > why has > > there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of > > their > > events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how > > many do > > you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? > > > >> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? > >> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating > >> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, > >> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as > >> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may > >> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is > >> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. > >> WW > >> > > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a > > good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the > > time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job > > with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. > > Look > > at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically > > everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. > > > > If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they > > support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest > > that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would > > say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to > > save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is > > getting people who normally were not politically involved before, > > involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a > > while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and > > not the liberal ranks. > > > > Maybe this is what is bothering you? > > > > Adam > > > >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> > >> > >>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you > >>> haven't > >>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are > >>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger > >>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that > >>> threatens you? > >>> > >>> Adam > >>> > >>> Jim Zaleski wrote: > >>> > >>>> Walt > >>>> > >>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those > >>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And > >>>> I agree, > >>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected > >>>> by the > >>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the > >>>> average > >>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of > >>>> talking heads > >>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear > >>>> and hate > >>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It > >>>> said all > >>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the > >>>> truth (I can > >>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the > >>>> government is > >>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal > >>>> away all > >>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every > >>>> taxpayer penny. > >>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot > >>>> traction with > >>>> the right. > >>>> > >>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against > >>>> things > >>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, > >>>> and what it > >>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to > >>>> allow > >>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) > >>>> then you > >>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or > >>>> anything that the > >>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob > >>>> rule, > >>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice > >>>> I didn't > >>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river > >>>> and they > >>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the > >>>> master > >>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads > >>>> without > >>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for > >>>> command > >>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea > >>>> Party. All > >>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of > >>>> ships without > >>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, > >>>> it's > >>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people > >>>> who gather > >>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for > >>>> theirs is a > >>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their > >>>> faith in > >>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed > >>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief > >>>> system, once > >>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof > >>>> in the > >>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false > >>>> prophets. > >>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the > >>>> fight, > >>>> you keep up the lies. > >>>> > >>>> jimz > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. > >>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without > >>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making > >>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The > >>>>> implication > >>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant > >>>>> only > >>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. > >>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly > >>>>> spring to > >>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its > >>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves > >>>>> usually are > >>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of > >>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great > >>>>> reserves > >>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by > >>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear > >>>>> up in > >>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," > >>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the > >>>>> middle and working classes. > >>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of > >>>>> principle can > >>>>> do is keep kicking. > >>>>> WW > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> GroveNet mailing list > >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> GroveNet mailing list > >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> GroveNet mailing list > >> GroveNet at rdrop.com > >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From edavie at frontier.com Tue Sep 28 14:10:26 2010 From: edavie at frontier.com (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:10:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Message-ID: ?Wow! Well said Edward. Ed From: Edward Baeza Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 12:42 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As we predicted: Dear Friends, Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I will share some of my personal core values. I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital to an effective democracy. I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper meaning and historical origin. I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that has severed its accountability to "we the people". I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes a criminal. I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide to our government". I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When did progress become a bad word. I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of their neighbors. I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming majority of them have not forgotten this. I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a Democrat". (Wil Rogers) I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. All the best, E. J. On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > > > Walt Wentz wrote: >> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, Jim >> seems to be on the right track. >> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >> Americans. > These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work > for a > living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, > their > families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you > suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your > definition of a mainstream American then? > >> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >> aged or older, > Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of > approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have > been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were > all > white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was > volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit > younger, but still all white. > >> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, people >> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >> stacking of the Supreme Court. > Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large > platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't > say > I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly > have a platform of issues. > >> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >> course). >> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led them in >> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >> as you heard in the 1930s. >> > And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my > college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't > understand why > people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does > anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? > >> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >> the assigned shock troops. >> > That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The > tens > of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country > has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take > years to > rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that > turned > into the most violent riot in the history of America. > > Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being > manipulated by > a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, > why has > there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of > their > events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how > many do > you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? > >> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >> WW >> > I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a > good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the > time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job > with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. > Look > at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically > everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. > > If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they > support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to suggest > that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I would > say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to > save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is > getting people who normally were not politically involved before, > involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a > while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks and > not the liberal ranks. > > Maybe this is what is bothering you? > > Adam > >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >> >>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>> haven't >>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>> threatens you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>> >>>> Walt >>>> >>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>> I agree, >>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>> by the >>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>> average >>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>> talking heads >>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>> and hate >>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>> said all >>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>> truth (I can >>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>> government is >>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>> away all >>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>> taxpayer penny. >>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>> traction with >>>> the right. >>>> >>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>> things >>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>> and what it >>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>> allow >>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>> then you >>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>> anything that the >>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>> rule, >>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>> I didn't >>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>> and they >>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>> master >>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>> without >>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>> command >>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>> Party. All >>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>> ships without >>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>> it's >>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>> who gather >>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>> theirs is a >>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>> faith in >>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are indeed >>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>> system, once >>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>> in the >>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>> prophets. >>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>> fight, >>>> you keep up the lies. >>>> >>>> jimz >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were making >>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>> implication >>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>> only >>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>> spring to >>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>> usually are >>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own businesses of >>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>> reserves >>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>> up in >>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered capitalism," >>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>> principle can >>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 16:11:25 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 16:11:25 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Message-ID: <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> Good thoughts, Ed. The primary purpose of politics today seems to be division, not unification. What common interests can be invoked counteract toxic politics, to unite people, rather than dividing them? A few suggestions: Party politics are remote, disconnected from our own everyday reality. Aside from handing over our hard-won money as political contributions, or joining our feeble voices in the chorus of vituperation, there is little any of us can actually do to affect national politics. We can, however, work locally to improve our own and our neighbors' lives. From the very beginning, communities have survived by cooperation, not neo-Darwinian competition. So... we might explore the idea of cooperative enterprises, like the community kitchen and farm market being proposed by others in this group. Modern, toxic politics seems designed to appeal largely to two atavistic factors: fear and wilful ignorance, which is also based on fear. One of the primary causes of fear is change. It is not by accident that demagogues constantly hark back to some "Golden Age" that actually never actually existed-- not for everyone, at least. The 1950s were a wonderful time for many, but the 1950s are gone forever. Change is the only constant in the world, yet to many, change means only risk, loss, danger, power or authority slipping out of their hands. Old people, especially, are terrified by change, partly because of their increasing insecurity in an unfamiliar world, and partly because they may romanticize their distant childhoods. The challenge, then is to "recast" change, presenting it as a welcome opportunity for improvement rather than destruction, danger and loss. As for ignorance, there is a common adage that "you can't cure stupid," but that is just copping out. Public debate should be both civil and educational. No faction should engage in public debate with the clear intention of disrupting it, or yelling down opposing opinions. What are some of the options? Discussion groups? Chataqua- type lectures? TV-free nights? Free college-level lectures? I must admit, I don't have any answers, only suggestions. I doubt there is any "magic bullet" to restore rationality to the public forum. But that shouldn't be any reason for us groundlings to just keep doing the same stupid thing over and over, and expecting a different result. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > Thanks Ed. I agree. > > Katie > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your >> discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a >> privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions >> involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and >> emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the >> balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real >> improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions >> about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives >> seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular >> choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem >> to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. >> >> The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides >> of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into >> constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate >> response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But >> I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to >> remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull >> decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. >> The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the >> appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. >> >> May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what >> core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can >> agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more >> than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of >> the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I >> will share some of my personal core values. >> >> I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative >> I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too >> often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we >> should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact >> protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against >> what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. >> I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital >> to an effective democracy. >> I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the >> death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot >> afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to >> journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. >> I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms >> fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and >> so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as >> weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of >> view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely >> interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for >> raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than >> not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper >> meaning and historical origin. >> I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free >> enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or >> insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are >> many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No >> enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that >> has severed its accountability to "we the people". >> I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. >> When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral >> transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of >> assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder >> and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes >> a criminal. >> I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws >> were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our >> economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by >> unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of >> lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. >> I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom >> and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means >> "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide >> to our government". >> I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a >> species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the >> principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote >> our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When >> did progress become a bad word. >> I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an >> interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and >> the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of >> their neighbors. >> I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need >> them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming >> majority of them have not forgotten this. >> I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The >> protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for >> our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we >> are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional >> rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the >> rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. >> "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a >> Democrat". (Wil Rogers) >> I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one >> virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. >> Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by >> fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. >> >> All the best, >> >> E. J. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>>> Jim >>>> seems to be on the right track. >>>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>>> Americans. >>> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >>> for a >>> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >>> their >>> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >>> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >>> definition of a mainstream American then? >>> >>>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>>> aged or older, >>> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >>> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have >>> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >>> all >>> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >>> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >>> younger, but still all white. >>> >>>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, >>>> Obama, >>>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the >>>> early >>>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>>> people >>>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >>> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >>> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >>> say >>> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they >>> clearly >>> have a platform of issues. >>> >>>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >>>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>>> course). >>>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>>> them in >>>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >>>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, >>>> such >>>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>>> >>> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the >>> ones my >>> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >>> understand why >>> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does >>> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >>> >>>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist >>>> has >>>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of >>>> insults >>>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they >>>> were >>>> the assigned shock troops. >>>> >>> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >>> tens >>> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the >>> country >>> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >>> years to >>> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >>> turned >>> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >>> >>> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >>> manipulated by >>> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >>> why has >>> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >>> their >>> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >>> many do >>> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >>> >>>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >>>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >>>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization >>>> may >>>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea >>>> Party is >>>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>>> WW >>>> >>> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me >>> such a >>> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the >>> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job >>> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >>> Look >>> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >>> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >>> >>> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >>> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >>> suggest >>> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >>> would >>> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to >>> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement >>> that is >>> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >>> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >>> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >>> and >>> not the liberal ranks. >>> >>> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>>> haven't >>>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected >>>>> anger >>>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>>> threatens you? >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Walt >>>>>> >>>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. >>>>>> And >>>>>> I agree, >>>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>>> by the >>>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>>> average >>>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>>> talking heads >>>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>>> and hate >>>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in >>>>>> point. It >>>>>> said all >>>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>>> truth (I can >>>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>>> government is >>>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>>> away all >>>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>>> traction with >>>>>> the right. >>>>>> >>>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack >>>>>> against >>>>>> things >>>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>>> and what it >>>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>>>> allow >>>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or >>>>>> proof,) >>>>>> then you >>>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>>> anything that the >>>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of >>>>>> mob >>>>>> rule, >>>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>>>> I didn't >>>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>>> and they >>>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>>> master >>>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>>> without >>>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing >>>>>> for >>>>>> command >>>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>>> Party. All >>>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>>> ships without >>>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>>> who gather >>>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>>> theirs is a >>>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>>> faith in >>>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>>> indeed >>>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>>> system, once >>>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No >>>>>> proof >>>>>> in the >>>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>>> prophets. >>>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up >>>>>> the >>>>>> fight, >>>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>>> >>>>>> jimz >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>>> making >>>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>>> implication >>>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>>> spring to >>>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>>> usually are >>>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>>> businesses of >>>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>>> reserves >>>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>>> up in >>>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>>> principle can >>>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>>> WW >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ejbaeza at mac.com Tue Sep 28 17:00:26 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:00:26 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> Message-ID: <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> Walt, Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness and again I thank you all for the opportunity. E. J. Baeza Midlife Crisis Studios Forest Grove, Oregon On Sep 28, 2010, at 4:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Good thoughts, Ed. > The primary purpose of politics today seems to be division, not > unification. What common interests can be invoked counteract toxic > politics, to unite people, rather than dividing them? > A few suggestions: > Party politics are remote, disconnected from our own everyday > reality. Aside from handing over our hard-won money as political > contributions, or joining our feeble voices in the chorus of > vituperation, there is little any of us can actually do to affect > national politics. > We can, however, work locally to improve our own and our neighbors' > lives. From the very beginning, communities have survived by > cooperation, not neo-Darwinian competition. > So... we might explore the idea of cooperative enterprises, like the > community kitchen and farm market being proposed by others in this > group. > Modern, toxic politics seems designed to appeal largely to two > atavistic factors: fear and wilful ignorance, which is also based on > fear. > One of the primary causes of fear is change. It is not by accident > that demagogues constantly hark back to some "Golden Age" that > actually never actually existed-- not for everyone, at least. The > 1950s were a wonderful time for many, but the 1950s are gone forever. > Change is the only constant in the world, yet to many, change means > only risk, loss, danger, power or authority slipping out of their > hands. Old people, especially, are terrified by change, partly > because of their increasing insecurity in an unfamiliar world, and > partly because they may romanticize their distant childhoods. > The challenge, then is to "recast" change, presenting it as a welcome > opportunity for improvement rather than destruction, danger and loss. > As for ignorance, there is a common adage that "you can't cure > stupid," but that is just copping out. Public debate should be both > civil and educational. No faction should engage in public debate with > the clear intention of disrupting it, or yelling down opposing > opinions. What are some of the options? Discussion groups? Chataqua- > type lectures? TV-free nights? Free college-level lectures? I must > admit, I don't have any answers, only suggestions. I doubt there is > any "magic bullet" to restore rationality to the public forum. But > that shouldn't be any reason for us groundlings to just keep doing > the same stupid thing over and over, and expecting a different result. > WW > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Thanks Ed. I agree. >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends, >>> Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your >>> discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a >>> privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions >>> involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and >>> emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the >>> balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real >>> improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions >>> about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives >>> seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular >>> choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not >>> seem >>> to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. >>> >>> The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides >>> of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into >>> constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate >>> response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. >>> But >>> I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to >>> remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the >>> impactfull >>> decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. >>> The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the >>> appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. >>> >>> May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see >>> what >>> core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can >>> agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more >>> than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting >>> out of >>> the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I >>> will share some of my personal core values. >>> >>> I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative >>> I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too >>> often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we >>> should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in >>> fact >>> protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against >>> what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. >>> I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital >>> to an effective democracy. >>> I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the >>> death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot >>> afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to >>> journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. >>> I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms >>> fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and >>> so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as >>> weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of >>> view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely >>> interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for >>> raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than >>> not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper >>> meaning and historical origin. >>> I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free >>> enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or >>> insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are >>> many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No >>> enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that >>> has severed its accountability to "we the people". >>> I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. >>> When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral >>> transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of >>> assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder >>> and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and >>> becomes >>> a criminal. >>> I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws >>> were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our >>> economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by >>> unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of >>> lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. >>> I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom >>> and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative >>> means >>> "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide >>> to our government". >>> I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a >>> species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the >>> principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote >>> our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When >>> did progress become a bad word. >>> I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an >>> interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and >>> the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the >>> generosity of >>> their neighbors. >>> I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need >>> them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming >>> majority of them have not forgotten this. >>> I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The >>> protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for >>> our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we >>> are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional >>> rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and >>> the >>> rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. >>> "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a >>> Democrat". (Wil Rogers) >>> I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one >>> virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. >>> Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be >>> determined by >>> fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> E. J. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>>>> Jim >>>>> seems to be on the right track. >>>>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>>>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>>>> Americans. >>>> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >>>> for a >>>> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >>>> their >>>> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >>>> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >>>> definition of a mainstream American then? >>>> >>>>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>>>> aged or older, >>>> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >>>> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I >>>> have >>>> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >>>> all >>>> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >>>> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >>>> younger, but still all white. >>>> >>>>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>>>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, >>>>> Obama, >>>>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>>>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the >>>>> early >>>>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>>>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>>>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>>>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>>>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>>>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>>>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>>>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>>>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>>>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>>>> people >>>>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>>>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>>>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>>>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >>>> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >>>> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >>>> say >>>> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they >>>> clearly >>>> have a platform of issues. >>>> >>>>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>>>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that >>>>> many of >>>>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>>>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>>>> course). >>>>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>>>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>>>> them in >>>>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to >>>>> two or >>>>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, >>>>> such >>>>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>>>> >>>> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the >>>> ones my >>>> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >>>> understand why >>>> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. >>>> Does >>>> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >>>> >>>>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>>>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>>>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist >>>>> has >>>>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of >>>>> insults >>>>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they >>>>> were >>>>> the assigned shock troops. >>>>> >>>> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >>>> tens >>>> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the >>>> country >>>> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >>>> years to >>>> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >>>> turned >>>> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >>>> >>>> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >>>> manipulated by >>>> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >>>> why has >>>> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >>>> their >>>> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >>>> many do >>>> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >>>> >>>>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea >>>>> Party? >>>>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>>>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, >>>>> prudery, >>>>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>>>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization >>>>> may >>>>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea >>>>> Party is >>>>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me >>>> such a >>>> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all >>>> the >>>> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good >>>> job >>>> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >>>> Look >>>> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >>>> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >>>> >>>> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >>>> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >>>> suggest >>>> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >>>> would >>>> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only >>>> way to >>>> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement >>>> that is >>>> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >>>> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >>>> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >>>> and >>>> not the liberal ranks. >>>> >>>> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>>>> haven't >>>>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected >>>>>> anger >>>>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>>>> threatens you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Walt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> I agree, >>>>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>>>> by the >>>>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>>>> average >>>>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>>>> talking heads >>>>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>>>> and hate >>>>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in >>>>>>> point. It >>>>>>> said all >>>>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>>>> truth (I can >>>>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>>>> government is >>>>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>>>> away all >>>>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>>>> traction with >>>>>>> the right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack >>>>>>> against >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>>>> and what it >>>>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is >>>>>>> inclined to >>>>>>> allow >>>>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or >>>>>>> proof,) >>>>>>> then you >>>>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>>>> anything that the >>>>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of >>>>>>> mob >>>>>>> rule, >>>>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge >>>>>>> (notice >>>>>>> I didn't >>>>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>>>> and they >>>>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>>>> master >>>>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> command >>>>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>>>> Party. All >>>>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>>>> ships without >>>>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe >>>>>>> anymore, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>>>> who gather >>>>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>>>> theirs is a >>>>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>>>> faith in >>>>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>>>> indeed >>>>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>>>> system, once >>>>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No >>>>>>> proof >>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>>>> prophets. >>>>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> fight, >>>>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jimz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>>>> implication >>>>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>>>> spring to >>>>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>>>> usually are >>>>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>>>> businesses of >>>>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>>>> reserves >>>>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>>>> up in >>>>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>>>> principle can >>>>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at frontier.com Tue Sep 28 18:29:13 2010 From: edavie at frontier.com (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:29:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> Message-ID: <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! Ed D. From: Edward Baeza Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: Walt, Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness and again I thank you all for the opportunity. E. J. Baeza Midlife Crisis Studios Forest Grove, Oregon On Sep 28, 2010, at 4:11 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > Good thoughts, Ed. > The primary purpose of politics today seems to be division, not > unification. What common interests can be invoked counteract toxic > politics, to unite people, rather than dividing them? > A few suggestions: > Party politics are remote, disconnected from our own everyday > reality. Aside from handing over our hard-won money as political > contributions, or joining our feeble voices in the chorus of > vituperation, there is little any of us can actually do to affect > national politics. > We can, however, work locally to improve our own and our neighbors' > lives. From the very beginning, communities have survived by > cooperation, not neo-Darwinian competition. > So... we might explore the idea of cooperative enterprises, like the > community kitchen and farm market being proposed by others in this > group. > Modern, toxic politics seems designed to appeal largely to two > atavistic factors: fear and wilful ignorance, which is also based on > fear. > One of the primary causes of fear is change. It is not by accident > that demagogues constantly hark back to some "Golden Age" that > actually never actually existed-- not for everyone, at least. The > 1950s were a wonderful time for many, but the 1950s are gone forever. > Change is the only constant in the world, yet to many, change means > only risk, loss, danger, power or authority slipping out of their > hands. Old people, especially, are terrified by change, partly > because of their increasing insecurity in an unfamiliar world, and > partly because they may romanticize their distant childhoods. > The challenge, then is to "recast" change, presenting it as a welcome > opportunity for improvement rather than destruction, danger and loss. > As for ignorance, there is a common adage that "you can't cure > stupid," but that is just copping out. Public debate should be both > civil and educational. No faction should engage in public debate with > the clear intention of disrupting it, or yelling down opposing > opinions. What are some of the options? Discussion groups? Chataqua- > type lectures? TV-free nights? Free college-level lectures? I must > admit, I don't have any answers, only suggestions. I doubt there is > any "magic bullet" to restore rationality to the public forum. But > that shouldn't be any reason for us groundlings to just keep doing > the same stupid thing over and over, and expecting a different result. > WW > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > >> Thanks Ed. I agree. >> >> Katie >> >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: >> >>> Dear Friends, >>> Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your >>> discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a >>> privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions >>> involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and >>> emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the >>> balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real >>> improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions >>> about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives >>> seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular >>> choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not >>> seem >>> to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. >>> >>> The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides >>> of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into >>> constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate >>> response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. >>> But >>> I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to >>> remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the >>> impactfull >>> decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. >>> The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the >>> appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. >>> >>> May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see >>> what >>> core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can >>> agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more >>> than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting >>> out of >>> the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I >>> will share some of my personal core values. >>> >>> I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative >>> I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too >>> often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we >>> should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in >>> fact >>> protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against >>> what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. >>> I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital >>> to an effective democracy. >>> I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the >>> death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot >>> afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to >>> journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. >>> I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms >>> fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and >>> so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as >>> weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of >>> view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely >>> interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for >>> raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than >>> not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper >>> meaning and historical origin. >>> I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free >>> enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or >>> insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are >>> many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No >>> enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that >>> has severed its accountability to "we the people". >>> I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. >>> When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral >>> transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of >>> assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder >>> and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and >>> becomes >>> a criminal. >>> I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws >>> were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our >>> economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by >>> unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of >>> lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. >>> I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom >>> and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative >>> means >>> "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide >>> to our government". >>> I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a >>> species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the >>> principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote >>> our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When >>> did progress become a bad word. >>> I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an >>> interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and >>> the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the >>> generosity of >>> their neighbors. >>> I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need >>> them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming >>> majority of them have not forgotten this. >>> I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The >>> protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for >>> our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we >>> are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional >>> rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and >>> the >>> rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. >>> "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a >>> Democrat". (Wil Rogers) >>> I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one >>> virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. >>> Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be >>> determined by >>> fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> E. J. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>>>> Jim >>>>> seems to be on the right track. >>>>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>>>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>>>> Americans. >>>> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >>>> for a >>>> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >>>> their >>>> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >>>> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >>>> definition of a mainstream American then? >>>> >>>>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>>>> aged or older, >>>> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >>>> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I >>>> have >>>> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >>>> all >>>> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >>>> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >>>> younger, but still all white. >>>> >>>>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>>>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, >>>>> Obama, >>>>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>>>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the >>>>> early >>>>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>>>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>>>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>>>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>>>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>>>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>>>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>>>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>>>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>>>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>>>> people >>>>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>>>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>>>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>>>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >>>> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >>>> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >>>> say >>>> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they >>>> clearly >>>> have a platform of issues. >>>> >>>>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>>>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that >>>>> many of >>>>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>>>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>>>> course). >>>>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>>>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>>>> them in >>>>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to >>>>> two or >>>>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, >>>>> such >>>>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>>>> >>>> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the >>>> ones my >>>> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >>>> understand why >>>> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. >>>> Does >>>> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >>>> >>>>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>>>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>>>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist >>>>> has >>>>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of >>>>> insults >>>>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they >>>>> were >>>>> the assigned shock troops. >>>>> >>>> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >>>> tens >>>> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the >>>> country >>>> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >>>> years to >>>> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >>>> turned >>>> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >>>> >>>> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >>>> manipulated by >>>> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >>>> why has >>>> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >>>> their >>>> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >>>> many do >>>> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >>>> >>>>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea >>>>> Party? >>>>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>>>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, >>>>> prudery, >>>>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>>>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization >>>>> may >>>>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea >>>>> Party is >>>>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>>>> WW >>>>> >>>> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me >>>> such a >>>> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all >>>> the >>>> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good >>>> job >>>> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >>>> Look >>>> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >>>> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >>>> >>>> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >>>> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >>>> suggest >>>> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >>>> would >>>> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only >>>> way to >>>> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement >>>> that is >>>> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >>>> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >>>> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >>>> and >>>> not the liberal ranks. >>>> >>>> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>>>> haven't >>>>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected >>>>>> anger >>>>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>>>> threatens you? >>>>>> >>>>>> Adam >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Walt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> I agree, >>>>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>>>> by the >>>>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>>>> average >>>>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>>>> talking heads >>>>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>>>> and hate >>>>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in >>>>>>> point. It >>>>>>> said all >>>>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>>>> truth (I can >>>>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>>>> government is >>>>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>>>> away all >>>>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>>>> traction with >>>>>>> the right. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack >>>>>>> against >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>>>> and what it >>>>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is >>>>>>> inclined to >>>>>>> allow >>>>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or >>>>>>> proof,) >>>>>>> then you >>>>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>>>> anything that the >>>>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of >>>>>>> mob >>>>>>> rule, >>>>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge >>>>>>> (notice >>>>>>> I didn't >>>>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>>>> and they >>>>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>>>> master >>>>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> command >>>>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>>>> Party. All >>>>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>>>> ships without >>>>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe >>>>>>> anymore, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>>>> who gather >>>>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>>>> theirs is a >>>>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>>>> faith in >>>>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>>>> indeed >>>>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>>>> system, once >>>>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No >>>>>>> proof >>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>>>> prophets. >>>>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> fight, >>>>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jimz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>>>> making >>>>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>>>> implication >>>>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>>>> spring to >>>>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>>>> usually are >>>>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>>>> businesses of >>>>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>>>> reserves >>>>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>>>> up in >>>>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>>>> principle can >>>>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>>>> WW >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From edavie at frontier.com Tue Sep 28 18:41:13 2010 From: edavie at frontier.com (Ed Davie) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:41:13 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <9694F32796DB4C98B45C73CD29DE7BB4@EdDaviePC> ?And then I forgot to do it myself! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Davie Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 6:29 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! Ed D. From: Edward Baeza Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:00 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: Walt, Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness and again I thank you all for the opportunity. E. J. Baeza Midlife Crisis Studios Forest Grove, Oregon From waltw at teleport.com Tue Sep 28 18:43:06 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:43:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: OK, then: Does anybody have any suggestions for cooperative projects, discussions, etc. which might start unifying some of our factions? Getting light rail into Forest Grove ahead of schedule? Strengthening hometown businesses so as to keep money circulating locally, instead of flowing back East? Restoring some of the old-time festivals that used to enliven the calendar and get more people downtown? Create a farm market for specialty local products not carried by the supermarkets (especially Wal-Mart)? Any ideas? WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! > Ed D. > > > From: Edward Baeza > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:00 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > > Walt, > Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to > hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have > suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can > change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on > Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our > actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard > it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation > to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my > thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to > all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness > and again I thank you all for the opportunity. > > E. J. Baeza > Midlife Crisis Studios > Forest Grove, Oregon > >>>>> From nospam03 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 18:47:53 2010 From: nospam03 at comcast.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:47:53 +0000 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> Message-ID: <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Strengthen business by cutting federal taxes on small business and people making over $250k. Why rail? Old technology. Buses would better serve the outlying areas with direct buses to areas. -----Original Message----- From: Walt Wentz Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:43:06 To: Forest Grove local interests list Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: OK, then: Does anybody have any suggestions for cooperative projects, discussions, etc. which might start unifying some of our factions? Getting light rail into Forest Grove ahead of schedule? Strengthening hometown businesses so as to keep money circulating locally, instead of flowing back East? Restoring some of the old-time festivals that used to enliven the calendar and get more people downtown? Create a farm market for specialty local products not carried by the supermarkets (especially Wal-Mart)? Any ideas? WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! > Ed D. > > > From: Edward Baeza > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:00 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > > Walt, > Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to > hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have > suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can > change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on > Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our > actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard > it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation > to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my > thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to > all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness > and again I thank you all for the opportunity. > > E. J. Baeza > Midlife Crisis Studios > Forest Grove, Oregon > >>>>> _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From redhead854 at msn.com Tue Sep 28 19:38:20 2010 From: redhead854 at msn.com (Holly Di) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 19:38:20 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] suggestions for cooperative projects................. In-Reply-To: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367>, <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com>, , , <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367>, <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com>, <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367>, <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, , , , <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com>, <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com>, <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com>, <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com>, , <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com>, <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com>, <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC>, Message-ID: I dont have a project, but a wonderful Small town Hometown thing is happening next week. HOMECOMING parade through downtown starting at the School District office winding its way to the High school. The band is marching, even though the competative marching portion of Band was cut a few years ago. There will be floats from each class and some floats from clubs, groups, even our firefighters join in the fun . Come line the streets on Thursday October 7th starting at 4:00. It will make you smile to see all the teens, celebrating their salad days. It might transport you in time to remember your Homecoming parade. Hope to see you there Holly > From: waltw at teleport.com > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:43:06 -0700 > To: grovenet at rdrop.com > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > OK, then: > Does anybody have any suggestions for cooperative projects, > discussions, etc. which might start unifying some of our factions? > Getting light rail into Forest Grove ahead of schedule? > Strengthening hometown businesses so as to keep money circulating > locally, instead of flowing back East? > Restoring some of the old-time festivals that used to enliven the > calendar and get more people downtown? > Create a farm market for specialty local products not carried by the > supermarkets (especially Wal-Mart)? > Any ideas? > WW > On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > > > ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! > > Ed D. > > From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Tue Sep 28 20:06:14 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:06:14 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] A Short Greeting Just for Mr Ed Message-ID: <6040-4CA2AD26-1757@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net> Hi This Greeting Is Just For You - Have A Good Night :- http://exclusives.250free.com/html/dogsurf.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 23:02:34 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:02:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> Message-ID: <4CA2D676.00001F.02936@DON-B2514E06367> I am a member of the Tea Party Patriots and I tend to mostly agree as well. Although there are Tea Party groups in towns, counties and states, there are only two major tea Parties. The core values of each are Core Values Fiscal Responsibility Constitutionally Limited Government Free Markets It would we extremely difficult to identify a person or group that would come out as opposed to those values. It is a catch 22. I had to grin at mention of the signs they carry at rallies. It seems that leadership just says bring your signs and keep them clean. So each member who makes a sign has one or more things they personally feel strongly about, so it is understandable that the sign messages would be all over the place. As for violence, riots, and such nonsense, to me knowledge there have been zero of that. We know the government set up counter groups which we believe are the source of the lies about the Tea Party being hostile or violent. Still despite hundreds of videos, some people still believe the lies. Finally, their strength does not alone come from other Tea Parties, but from hundreds of other cooperating groups, totaling at last survey over 30 million citizens. Given the growing dissatisfaction of government activities and growing numbers of Patriots, they will get a lot of constitutionally oriented people elected this year, And some of the candidates supported by big interests, with big financial power, will instead go home licking their wounds after this election. Thanks all. I enjoy the opinions. Don -------Original Message------- From: Katie Allnutt Date: 9/28/2010 1:54:57 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: Thanks Ed. I agree. Katie On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: > Dear Friends, > Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your > discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a > privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions > involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and > emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the > balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real > improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions > about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives > seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular > choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem > to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. > > The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides > of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into > constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate > response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But > I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to > remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull > decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. > The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the > appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. > > May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what > core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can > agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more > than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of > the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I > will share some of my personal core values. > > I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative > I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too > often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we > should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact > protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against > what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. > I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital > to an effective democracy. > I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the > death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot > afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to > journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. > I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms > fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and > so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as > weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of > view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely > interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for > raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than > not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper > meaning and historical origin. > I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free > enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or > insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are > many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No > enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that > has severed its accountability to "we the people". > I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. > When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral > transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of > assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder > and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes > a criminal. > I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws > were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our > economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by > unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of > lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. > I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom > and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means > "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide > to our government". > I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a > species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the > principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote > our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When > did progress become a bad word. > I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an > interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and > the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of > their neighbors. > I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need > them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming > majority of them have not forgotten this. > I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The > protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for > our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we > are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional > rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the > rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. > "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a > Democrat". (Wil Rogers) > I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one > virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. > Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by > fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. > > All the best, > > E. J. > > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: > >> >> >> Walt Wentz wrote: >>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>> Jim >>> seems to be on the right track. >>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>> Americans. >> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >> for a >> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >> their >> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >> definition of a mainstream American then? >> >>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>> aged or older, >> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have >> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >> all >> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >> younger, but still all white. >> >>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, Obama, >>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the early >>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>> people >>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >> say >> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they clearly >> have a platform of issues. >> >>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>> course). >>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>> them in >>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, such >>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>> >> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the ones my >> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >> understand why >> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does >> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >> >>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist has >>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of insults >>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they were >>> the assigned shock troops. >>> >> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >> tens >> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the country >> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >> years to >> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >> turned >> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >> >> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >> manipulated by >> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >> why has >> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >> their >> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >> many do >> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >> >>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization may >>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea Party is >>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>> WW >>> >> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me such a >> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the >> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job >> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >> Look >> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >> >> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >> suggest >> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >> would >> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to >> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement that is >> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >> and >> not the liberal ranks. >> >> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >> >> Adam >> >>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>> haven't >>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected anger >>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>> threatens you? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>> >>>>> Walt >>>>> >>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. And >>>>> I agree, >>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>> by the >>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>> average >>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>> talking heads >>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>> and hate >>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in point. It >>>>> said all >>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>> truth (I can >>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>> government is >>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>> away all >>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>> traction with >>>>> the right. >>>>> >>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack against >>>>> things >>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>> and what it >>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>>> allow >>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or proof,) >>>>> then you >>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>> anything that the >>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of mob >>>>> rule, >>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>>> I didn't >>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>> and they >>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>> master >>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>> without >>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing for >>>>> command >>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>> Party. All >>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>> ships without >>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>>> it's >>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>> who gather >>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>> theirs is a >>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>> faith in >>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>> indeed >>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>> system, once >>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No proof >>>>> in the >>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>> prophets. >>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up the >>>>> fight, >>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>> >>>>> jimz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>> making >>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>> implication >>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>> only >>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>> spring to >>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>> usually are >>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>> businesses of >>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>> reserves >>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>> up in >>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>> principle can >>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>> WW >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100928/36c5230e/attachment.gif From allnutt at frontier.com Tue Sep 28 23:35:06 2010 From: allnutt at frontier.com (Katie Allnutt) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 23:35:06 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Steve wrote: > Strengthen business by cutting federal taxes on small business and > people making over $250k. Let's review what happened over the last 9 years. Bush cut taxes for all businesses and cut them even more for people making over $250K. Did employment soar? No, it didn't even keep up with the population growth. Did business soar? Yes, for overseas manufacturers but not for US manufacturers. Reports are now starting to come out that the increased investment in overseas manufacturing over the Bush years was (big surprise here) the equivalent amount of money as the tax cuts for those making over $250K. So, do tax cuts for the wealthy trickle down to jobs? Only to cheaper countries that take US jobs overseas. Businesses need customers. Customers need money to spend. It would be better to have wages keep up with productivity and then people would have more to spend. If productivity increases had been keeping up over the past republican administrations since Reagan, the average income would be closer to $75K than the $49K that it is now. But instead the productivity increases have gone to the few at the top. We have been racing to the bottom and will continue to do so until we quit thinking that the guys at the top are going to trickle down the government largess they have been given for so long. I say let Bush's tax plan do exactly what he intended it to do. He planned it to end this year. Let Bush's plan be Bush's plan and next year we can vote on a new and improved Obama tax cut plan. One that is more fair to the other 98% of us. Katie From edavie at frontier.com Wed Sep 29 08:14:58 2010 From: edavie at frontier.com (Ed Davie) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:14:58 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> References: <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> Message-ID: ?Well stated, Katie! Ed D. From: Katie Allnutt Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:35 PM To: nospam03 at comcast.net ; Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Steve wrote: > Strengthen business by cutting federal taxes on small business and > people making over $250k. Let's review what happened over the last 9 years. Bush cut taxes for all businesses and cut them even more for people making over $250K. Did employment soar? No, it didn't even keep up with the population growth. Did business soar? Yes, for overseas manufacturers but not for US manufacturers. Reports are now starting to come out that the increased investment in overseas manufacturing over the Bush years was (big surprise here) the equivalent amount of money as the tax cuts for those making over $250K. So, do tax cuts for the wealthy trickle down to jobs? Only to cheaper countries that take US jobs overseas. Businesses need customers. Customers need money to spend. It would be better to have wages keep up with productivity and then people would have more to spend. If productivity increases had been keeping up over the past republican administrations since Reagan, the average income would be closer to $75K than the $49K that it is now. But instead the productivity increases have gone to the few at the top. We have been racing to the bottom and will continue to do so until we quit thinking that the guys at the top are going to trickle down the government largess they have been given for so long. I say let Bush's tax plan do exactly what he intended it to do. He planned it to end this year. Let Bush's plan be Bush's plan and next year we can vote on a new and improved Obama tax cut plan. One that is more fair to the other 98% of us. Katie _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 29 09:45:47 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:45:47 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <736617F4-8627-481B-AD91-577E211DA69E@teleport.com> Steve: What have we groundlings got to do with cutting taxes? NONE of US will be affected by cutting taxes for wealthy people-- except adversely! I am going to suggest we stay off that stale old RNC doctrine-- except to modestly suggest that any tax cuts to wealthy people should carry the automatic requirement that the recipient must create so many American jobs per so much in tax cuts. The taxes levied on their employees' salaries could then at least partly offset the losses caused by their own tax cuts. What we are speaking of here is things WE can do, LOCALLY, to improve our lives and unify our community, without getting suckered into the divisive power games of those few people who already exercise far too much power over our lives. Let's stick within the criteria set by Ed: what can WE do, locally, to counteract the forces that divide communities and impoverish everyone? On the side issue of bus transportation-- polluting and wasteful of resources. Thanks to our hydroelectric infrastructure, electric trains require less imported fuels and are much less polluting, as well as more likely to keep schedules. In rural areas, "jitney" buses or vans could transport people from trolley station to neighborhood dropoff points, just as they did in the old days. A few retired folk with dependable vehicles could earn a living and serve their local community just by meeting all the trains. Such a train/jitney system would save time, gas and auto expenses for people who now commute on increasingly crowded highways. "Telecommuting," once touted as the answer to all our problems, is realistically limited to those people who earn a living by moving information around? and, as I've said probably all too often, you can't eat, wear or shelter under information. So, while improving public transportation, we should also strive to "decentralize" work, so that more people can work in smaller, local businesses, using local products to produce goods and services that local people actually need. Change is inevitable, and among the changes we are already seeing is that fuel costs will continue to escalate, making the worldwide merchandising system more and more expensive to operate. Along with that, the population size and the percentage of older people in that population will continue to grow. Communities within larger communities, or "villages" within cities, in which as many local needs as possible are met locally, would reduce the shock to people's lives and the economy as these changes continue to accelerate. Cornelius will be a sort of social laboratory in coming years, as we will see how people are affected by an increasingly centralized "mega- commerce" that drains money from local areas and pumps it back East to giant corporations, while destroying local businesses and jobs. The new situation will cause considerable hardship for many people, as well as impacting our communities as increasing poverty brings in all its attendant problems-- decreasing services, civic deterioration, crime and drugs. How we react creatively to this challenge may decide whether we ordinary working Americans can create solutions to continue to live in relative freedom, on our own property, in our own home towns? or whether we must become desperate, impoverished serfs, constantly in search of work, and bidding ourselves lower and lower in competition with other desperate serfs for the few jobs that have not been shipped overseas by our corporate masters. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Steve wrote: > Strengthen business by cutting federal taxes on small business and > people making over $250k. > Why rail? Old technology. Buses would better serve the outlying > areas with direct buses to areas. > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Wentz > Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:43:06 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > OK, then: > Does anybody have any suggestions for cooperative projects, > discussions, etc. which might start unifying some of our factions? > Getting light rail into Forest Grove ahead of schedule? > Strengthening hometown businesses so as to keep money circulating > locally, instead of flowing back East? > Restoring some of the old-time festivals that used to enliven the > calendar and get more people downtown? > Create a farm market for specialty local products not carried by the > supermarkets (especially Wal-Mart)? > Any ideas? > WW > On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Ed Davie wrote: > >> ?Time to shorten up the list, folks. It's getting l o o n g! >> Ed D. >> >> >> From: Edward Baeza >> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:00 PM >> To: Forest Grove local interests list >> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: >> >> >> Walt, >> Thanks for your comments. You're a realist and now is no time to >> hope for magic bullets. As you and R Buckminster Fuller have >> suggested, we can think globally and act locally. Right now we can >> change the nature of our dialogue right here in Forest Grove and on >> Grovenet. This can change our thoughts, which can change our >> actions, which can change our communities and so on. We've all heard >> it before. I'm as susceptible as the next person to the temptation >> to vent and point fingers of blame. But the act of putting my >> thoughts in writing holds a responsibility that I believe I owe to >> all of you. You all deserve to be treated with respect and fairness >> and again I thank you all for the opportunity. >> >> E. J. Baeza >> Midlife Crisis Studios >> Forest Grove, Oregon >> >>>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From ejbaeza at mac.com Wed Sep 29 10:10:30 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:10:30 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA2D676.00001F.02936@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <4CA2D676.00001F.02936@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: Don, Thanks for your contribution and thoughts below. I can say that I agree with the core values that you've listed. Although I believe our government bodies at all levels have an appropriate role to play in serving our communities, they're so big and complex that there has to be a certain amount of waste and inefficiency. We should support those who sincerely are trying to address this. The aspiration for free markets is one that I share, but alas, our markets are somewhat less than free. Legislative restraints on the markets have proven to be helpful and a hinderance as well. Also, less than scrupulous market actors have done serious damage as well. Special interests have tilted the playing field and have put the mom and pop business at a disadvantage in many cases. Still to the degree that we have some self determination in our markets, that's the degree to which we will prosper. Right now prosperity is in short supply and seems to be landing on the shoulders of those who have exclusive access to our law makers. Who is going to lobby for the little guy. Even the Tea Party is being highjacked to some degree by big business interests. I am the President of The City Club of Forest Grove. I believe in the small town or "village" life style. It's important that we support our local downtown and Forest Grove businesses. How many of us "Grovenetters" attend and support our small town events like the Homecoming Parade, First Wednesday, Forest Grove Uncorked, Chalk Art, etc. As a City Club volunteer, I would like to invite you all to participate in our community events and encourage others to do so. To meet each other face to face and discover our shared concerns and interests about our town I believe is good place to start. Right now, City Club is interested in inviting all of you to volunteer for the annual Parade of LIghts. We need 30 to 50 volunteers for traffic and crowd control so we can hold a fun and safe event for the community. It's a small step toward the "sustainability" of our town. I'm going to use this word a lot in these discussions because to apply the test of "sustainability" to our existing practices is a good, non-partisan way to discover their validity. All the best, E. J. One more thing. On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:02 PM, donkelly wrote: > I am a member of the Tea Party Patriots and I tend to mostly agree > as well. > > Although there are Tea Party groups in towns, counties and states, > there are > only two major tea Parties. > > The core values of each are > Core Values > Fiscal Responsibility > Constitutionally Limited Government > Free Markets > > It would we extremely difficult to identify a person or group that > would > come out as opposed to those values. It is a catch 22. > > I had to grin at mention of the signs they carry at rallies. It > seems that > leadership just says bring your signs and keep them clean. So each > member > who makes a sign has one or more things they personally feel > strongly about, > so it is understandable that the sign messages would be all over > the place. > > As for violence, riots, and such nonsense, to me knowledge there > have been > zero of that. We know the government set up counter groups which we > believe > are the source of the lies about the Tea Party being hostile or > violent. > Still despite hundreds of videos, some people still believe the lies. > > Finally, their strength does not alone come from other Tea Parties, > but from > hundreds of other cooperating groups, totaling at last survey over 30 > million citizens. > > Given the growing dissatisfaction of government activities and growing > numbers of Patriots, they will get a lot of constitutionally > oriented people > elected this year, > And some of the candidates supported by big interests, with big > financial > power, will instead go home licking their wounds after this election. > > Thanks all. I enjoy the opinions. > > Don > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Katie Allnutt > Date: 9/28/2010 1:54:57 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > Thanks Ed. I agree. > > Katie > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Edward Baeza wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> Thank you for allowing me to witness and take part in your >> discussions of the issue that matter to all of us. It is indeed a >> privilege to be able to participate. The issues and opinions >> involving the Tea Party have certainly created a lot of debate and >> emotions on both sides of the political divide. What hangs in the >> balance now is whether or not this movement will result in real >> improvements to the lives. It seems as though the divisive opinions >> about the Tea Party and expressed by conservatives and progressives >> seem to be examples of each side preaching to their own particular >> choir. A clear path to consensus and corrective action does not seem >> to be forming as a result of the competitive rhetoric. >> >> The good news is that there is real energy and concern on both sides >> of this argument. How can we transform this energy and emotion into >> constructive civic involvement and results. Anger is an appropriate >> response to the dilemmas that are seriously affecting our lives. But >> I cannot recall an instance when anger was the appropriate state to >> remain in while making voting and life decisions. All the impactfull >> decisions I've made while in the state of anger have been bad one. >> The anger must be followed by a calm and rational assessment of the >> appropriate response and/or action(s) to take. >> >> May I suggest that we set a goal for this discussion. Let's see what >> core values conservatives and progressives share and see what we can >> agree on. It's been my experience that opposing sides agree on more >> than they think they do. This type of process takes the sting out of >> the discussion and replaces it with understanding. To this end, I >> will share some of my personal core values. >> >> I'm a progressive but I'm a fiscal conservative >> I believe that "we the people" are the government and we've all too >> often abdicated our responsibility to participate as fully as we >> should. So if we're protesting against the government we are in fact >> protesting against ourselves. More accurately we protesting against >> what we've brought upon ourselves. We have no one else to blame. >> I believe in education and that a more educated electorate is vital >> to an effective democracy. >> I subscribe to a newspaper even though I can't afford it because the >> death of the free press is the death of our democracy and it cannot >> afford to be replaced by bloggers and pundits that don't adhere to >> journalistic principles. Support your local and city newspapers. >> I believe in defining your terms. One should know what the terms >> fascist, socialist, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative and >> so on mean before they use them. And they should never use them as >> weapons. They are terms designed to identify political points of >> view so an intelligent discussion can be had by those sincerely >> interested the issues of our day. They should not be used for >> raising money for a PAC or character assassination. More often than >> not these terms are used by people who don't know their proper >> meaning and historical origin. >> I believe that there is a difference between capitalism and free >> enterprise. Neither term should be used or taken as slight or >> insult. Capitalism is just one form of free enterprise. There are >> many other forms of free enterprise that are not capitalism. No >> enterprise is free if it is put upon by a government or group that >> has severed its accountability to "we the people". >> I believe that there is a difference between profit and plunder. >> When a capitalist makes a profit, it is done so through a moral >> transaction. When a capitalist make money or takes control of >> assets through fraud or immoral transactions that is called plunder >> and not profit. The capitalist ceases to be a capitalist and becomes >> a criminal. >> I believe that just because "it's not against the law" or "no laws >> were broken" that doesn't mean that "it was right or OK". Our >> economy and the middle class was brutally and callously assaulted by >> unscrupulous individuals who "broke no laws". The destruction of >> lives, livelihoods and homes was I my mind criminal and immoral. >> I'm a liberal because the term liberal means "pertaining to freedom >> and liberty". I'm a conservative because the term conservative means >> "one who wishes to conserve the constitution as the basis and guide >> to our government". >> I'm a progressive because I believe that as a citizenry and as a >> species we must continuously improve our ability to live up to the >> principles of the constitution and to the moral values that promote >> our individual and collective well being; in short "progress". When >> did progress become a bad word. >> I believe that locally, nationally and globally that we are an >> interdependent community. The "haves" must help the "have nots" and >> the "have nots" must not abuse their assistance and the generosity of >> their neighbors. >> I believe the wealthy among us should not be demonized. We need >> them. They should not forget that they need us and the overwhelming >> majority of them have not forgotten this. >> I am proud of and grateful for my rights as a U. S. citizen. The >> protection of the rights of the individual have been the reason for >> our success as a nation. But I don't believe that as Americans we >> are the only ones that deserve these rights. Our constitutional >> rights are so powerful because they happen to be human rights and the >> rest of the world's peoples also entitled these human rights. >> "I am not a member of any organized political party...I'm a >> Democrat". (Wil Rogers) >> I believe that there is not a "Book of Virtues". There is only one >> virtue and it is courage. All other virtues come out of courage. >> Let's not let our future as a community and a nation be determined by >> fear and anger. Last I heard these where not virtues. >> >> All the best, >> >> E. J. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:47 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Walt Wentz wrote: >>>> Well, I've been to a couple, and from my impressions I got there, >>>> Jim >>>> seems to be on the right track. >>>> No matter what the largely self-appointed leaders of the Tea Party >>>> say, it is a movement that attracts non-typical, non-mainstream >>>> Americans. >>> These people are tax payers, people with families, people who work >>> for a >>> living, people who are honest, people who take care of themselves, >>> their >>> families, their communities. They just weren't political. Are you >>> suggesting that this isn't a mainstream American? What is your >>> definition of a mainstream American then? >>> >>>> I found the participants to be all white, mostly middle- >>>> aged or older, >>> Shocking! Except for the fact that Oregon has a population of >>> approximately 90% people of European dissent (white people). I have >>> been to Democrat events and you may be surprised that they too were >>> all >>> white, mostly middle aged or older as well. The same when I was >>> volunteering at gay pride a few months ago, except they were a bit >>> younger, but still all white. >>> >>>> and many riding some personal obsession having to to >>>> with religion, race, guns, Obama, conspiracy, gold, abortion, >>>> Obama, >>>> eugenics (I kid you not, some lady was waving a sign denouncing >>>> Eugenics, a failed "racial improvement" scheme dating from the >>>> early >>>> 1900s), socialism, subsidized health care, Obamacare, immigration, >>>> income taxes, Muslims, inheritance taxes, ANY taxes, land-use >>>> planning, foreigners, government regulations and Obama. Ladies >>>> earnestly waving signs reading "Don't Touch my Medicare" or "Hands >>>> off Social Security" seemed blissfully unaware of any incongruity >>>> with those denouncing "Socialism" or "Subsidized heath care." >>>> Conspicuously absent in their ranks were any signs denouncing >>>> corporate monopolies, corporate bailouts, corporate crime, >>>> outsourcing US jobs, intolerance, insurance costs vs. insurance >>>> company profits, banking fraud, war, people losing their jobs, >>>> people >>>> losing their homes, the obscene pay scales of American executives, >>>> the shrinking real pay of American workers, the top one percent of >>>> the population owning 95 percent of the nation's wealth, or the >>>> stacking of the Supreme Court. >>> Jim said that they have "no platform". Sounds like a very large >>> platform to me. I understand if you don't agree with them, I can't >>> say >>> I agree with everything in that laundry list either, but they >>> clearly >>> have a platform of issues. >>> >>>> (to be perfectly charitable, I did not >>>> do an in-depth interview of many people, and it may be that many of >>>> them really ARE intensely concerned about those actually important >>>> things? it's just that they are too long to fit on their signs. Of >>>> course). >>>> In one gathering, I was close enough to the nucleus to see that it >>>> had a "cheerleader," a middle-aged, brass-lunged lady who led >>>> them in >>>> shouting Glenn-Beckian slogans? nice simple ones, limited to two or >>>> or at most three words? short, simple, easy to remember things, >>>> such >>>> as you heard in the 1930s. >>>> >>> And just like the ones in the 1960's, but much tamer than the >>> ones my >>> college radicals and I were doing in the 1980's. I don't >>> understand why >>> people chanting slogans makes them a bunch of mindless drones. Does >>> anyone who chants now is a bewildered minion? >>> >>>> Note that I said, MOSTLY middle-aged. There were a few groups of >>>> young men (late teens-early 20s I'd guess), right at the age when >>>> "the bloodstream is surging with hate hormones," as one humorist >>>> has >>>> written, and they were the ones doing most of the yelling of >>>> insults >>>> and threats at peaceful counter-demonstrators. Almost like they >>>> were >>>> the assigned shock troops. >>>> >>> That's why these events are so violent from all of that hate. The >>> tens >>> of thousands of arrests from every tea party event across the >>> country >>> has been a real black eye to the movement. I hear it will take >>> years to >>> rebuild Washington DC after the Glenn Beck rally last month that >>> turned >>> into the most violent riot in the history of America. >>> >>> Question, if these people are so full of hate, are being >>> manipulated by >>> a bunch of evil power grabbers and are not mainstream Americans, >>> why has >>> there been almost no violence, none that I am aware of, at any of >>> their >>> events, meetings, gatherings? No one was arrested on 8/28, how >>> many do >>> you think will be arrested this weekend in DC? >>> >>>> Am I mistrustful and even angry at the leadership of the Tea Party? >>>> You betchum, Red Ryder! I see them as cynically manipulating >>>> atavistic, sub-rational human impulses? fear, intolerance, prudery, >>>> tribalism, slavery?that are generally ignored or even regarded as >>>> anti-social in a functioning civilization. American civilization >>>> may >>>> be veering toward dysfunction. I don't know whether the Tea >>>> Party is >>>> merely a symptom of that dysfunction, or an actual cause. >>>> WW >>>> >>> I am mistrustful of any leadership, guess that's what makes me >>> such a >>> good Libertarian ;-) . But fear is what is used in politics all the >>> time. Currently the Democrat party has been doing a pretty good job >>> with that in the Ainge campaign. I don't like it but fear sells. >>> Look >>> at any deodorant commercial, insurance commercial or practically >>> everything that we are exposed to on a daily basis, it is fear. >>> >>> If you don't support the Tea Party because of the issues that they >>> support, fine. We still have the freedom to disagree. But to >>> suggest >>> that this is an angry mob that is out to destroy civilization, I >>> would >>> say that is just as crazy as someone who claims that the only way to >>> save civilization is through the Tea Party. It is a movement >>> that is >>> getting people who normally were not politically involved before, >>> involved now. The only difference is that this the first time in a >>> while where the movement has sprung up from the conservative ranks >>> and >>> not the liberal ranks. >>> >>> Maybe this is what is bothering you? >>> >>> Adam >>> >>>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Adam Mayer wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm guessing from your statements about the Tea Party that you >>>>> haven't >>>>> been to any events, meetings or have meet too many people who are >>>>> associated with the Tea Party. Your mistrust and misdirected >>>>> anger >>>>> towards them appears to be an attack against something that >>>>> threatens you? >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> Jim Zaleski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Walt >>>>>> >>>>>> I share your befuddlement. It's one of those >>>>>> cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face, sort of mentalities. >>>>>> And >>>>>> I agree, >>>>>> most of the most vocal are the most vulnerable and most affected >>>>>> by the >>>>>> dealings of slimy, unregulated capitalists running amok over the >>>>>> average >>>>>> consumer (taxpayer). Unfortunately, ignorance allows a host of >>>>>> talking heads >>>>>> in this country to manipulate these gullible masses through fear >>>>>> and hate >>>>>> mongering. The last post forwarded by Don K is a case in >>>>>> point. It >>>>>> said all >>>>>> the right things to get people riled up, but none of it was the >>>>>> truth (I can >>>>>> only imagine the affect this had on those people who feel the >>>>>> government is >>>>>> (or the Democrats/liberals are,) wholly corrupt and out to steal >>>>>> away all >>>>>> their rights while emptying the government coffers of every >>>>>> taxpayer penny. >>>>>> It was no doubt a powerful, incendiary piece that got a lot >>>>>> traction with >>>>>> the right. >>>>>> >>>>>> An unfortunate part of human nature is to go on the attack >>>>>> against >>>>>> things >>>>>> that threaten us, especially when we are told who the enemy is, >>>>>> and what it >>>>>> will do to us if we don't strike first. And if one is inclined to >>>>>> allow >>>>>> others to make that judgment for them (without question or >>>>>> proof,) >>>>>> then you >>>>>> have a mob mentality, ready to attack and devour anyone or >>>>>> anything that the >>>>>> finger-pointers point out. The Tea Party is a prime example of >>>>>> mob >>>>>> rule, >>>>>> they are angry, they are frustrated and they want revenge (notice >>>>>> I didn't >>>>>> say justice). They feel they've already been sold down the river >>>>>> and they >>>>>> want to get even no matter what it takes. Enter the rise of the >>>>>> master >>>>>> manipulators of the truth, the power grabbers, the talking heads >>>>>> without >>>>>> scruples, opportunists crawling out of the wood work competing >>>>>> for >>>>>> command >>>>>> of an army of confused and bewildered minions. This is the Tea >>>>>> Party. All >>>>>> words and actions, no platform and no solutions (a flotilla of >>>>>> ships without >>>>>> rudders in an angry sea). I don't debate with the fringe anymore, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> useless and hopelessly impossible to change the minds of people >>>>>> who gather >>>>>> collectively under flags of mistrust and misdirected anger, for >>>>>> theirs is a >>>>>> battle based not upon facts, but beliefs. Theirs is, like their >>>>>> faith in >>>>>> God, a holy war. They are driven by the belief that they are >>>>>> indeed >>>>>> righteous, and that's a dangerous thing. And like any belief >>>>>> system, once >>>>>> it's established, it cannot be easily changed or removed. No >>>>>> proof >>>>>> in the >>>>>> world will change the mind of a believer in falsehoods and false >>>>>> prophets. >>>>>> If you keep up the fear, you keep up the fight. And to keep up >>>>>> the >>>>>> fight, >>>>>> you keep up the lies. >>>>>> >>>>>> jimz >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Walt Wentz >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well and cogently put, Jimz. >>>>>>> Since the owners of Hank's/Grande Foods willingly went without >>>>>>> salaries for years, we may reasonably assume that they were >>>>>>> making >>>>>>> every effort they could to preserve their business. The >>>>>>> implication >>>>>>> that a family business can be steamrolled by a corporate giant >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> because they "just didn't try hard enough" is pure hooey. >>>>>>> I can't understand the motivations of people who instantly >>>>>>> spring to >>>>>>> the defense of Big Money when ordinary folk get crushed by its >>>>>>> predatory business practices... The defenders themselves >>>>>>> usually are >>>>>>> NOT paid corporate spokesweasels, in fact do not own >>>>>>> businesses of >>>>>>> their own, large or small, and may not even have any great >>>>>>> reserves >>>>>>> between themselves and financial ruin if they get hammered by >>>>>>> economic or medical disaster. Yet they feel compelled to rear >>>>>>> up in >>>>>>> righteous anger at any criticism of "pure, unfettered >>>>>>> capitalism," >>>>>>> even if they themselves will go down in the general ruin of the >>>>>>> middle and working classes. >>>>>>> I dunno-- human nature is funny. About all a person of >>>>>>> principle can >>>>>>> do is keep kicking. >>>>>>> WW >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> GroveNet mailing list >>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GroveNet mailing list >>> GroveNet at rdrop.com >>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> GroveNet mailing list >> GroveNet at rdrop.com >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/ > grovenet_____________________________________ > __________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 29 10:25:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:25:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA2D676.00001F.02936@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <4CA2D676.00001F.02936@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <2DEB30AD-F3A2-49B1-B30C-D0B3F6E99F7D@teleport.com> Don: "That is all very well, but now we must tend our gardens." Yes, all these sounding phrases are all very well. And all of them can be interpreted by various parties and individuals to serve their own selfish purposes. "Fiscal responsibility" to some means living within our means, to others it means shredding every social safety net and to hell with the unfortunate. To US-- locally-- it should mean keeping our wealth local, and increasing local prosperity by judicious investment in local developments that will benefit us and our neighbors. "Constitutionally Limited Government" to some means preserving our basic equality before the law, removing "legal personhood" from corporations, and "promoting the general welfare," while to others it means gutting every federal department and every bit of progressive legislation written since the 1890s, returning us to a "Wild West" economy and a new Gilded Age for the unscrupulous. To US? locally? it should mean living within the law, resisting, as united communities, those corporate enterprises and their legal and legislative allies who would undermine and destroy our individual livelihoods and the welfare of our communities, and establishing our own "good and necessary" local legislation to preserve our local interests. "Free Markets" to some means that a businessman can begin with a level playing field, succeeding or failing without interference by sweetheart regulations favoring established monopolies or powerful corporations. To others it means dismantling all regulatory agencies, including the FDA, and returning us to the era of "Let the Buyer Beware, and Who Gives a Damn About Your Problems?" To US? locally? it should mean the freedom to develop local businesses and markets, circulating our wealth within our communities, without being subject to the political machinations of corporations who see local neighborhoods only as reservoirs of money to be sucked dry, wrung out and then ignored. If we can learn to ignore political sloganeering, avoid the interminable "he-said-she said" and "gotcha games" designed to distract us from the immediate, local questions affecting our own lives and neighborhoods, perhaps we can get back to reality. Political parties are not reality. Political candidates and slogans are for damn sure not reality. Food on the table and a roof over the head, in a place where one wants to continue living--- THAT is reality. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors, designed to keep the sheep lining up to be shorn. From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 29 10:27:40 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:27:40 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> Message-ID: <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on national fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Steve wrote: > >> Strengthen business by cutting federal taxes on small business and >> people making over $250k. > > Let's review what happened over the last 9 years. Bush cut taxes for > all businesses and cut them even more for people making over $250K. > Did employment soar? No, it didn't even keep up with the population > growth. > Did business soar? Yes, for overseas manufacturers but not for US > manufacturers. Reports are now starting to come out that the > increased investment in overseas manufacturing over the Bush years > was (big surprise here) the equivalent amount of money as the tax > cuts for those making over $250K. So, do tax cuts for the wealthy > trickle down to jobs? Only to cheaper countries that take US jobs > overseas. > Businesses need customers. Customers need money to spend. It would be > better to have wages keep up with productivity and then people would > have more to spend. If productivity increases had been keeping up > over the past republican administrations since Reagan, the average > income would be closer to $75K than the $49K that it is now. But > instead the productivity increases have gone to the few at the top. > We have been racing to the bottom and will continue to do so until we > quit thinking that the guys at the top are going to trickle down the > government largess they have been given for so long. > > I say let Bush's tax plan do exactly what he intended it to do. He > planned it to end this year. Let Bush's plan be Bush's plan and next > year we can vote on a new and improved Obama tax cut plan. One that > is more fair to the other 98% of us. > > Katie > > > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From RosesFromHoss at webtv.net Wed Sep 29 10:52:35 2010 From: RosesFromHoss at webtv.net (Alan Domenghini) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:52:35 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Sanity In-Reply-To: Walt Wentz 's message of Wed, 29 Sep 2010 09:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: <7829-4CA37CE3-428@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> I have been reading everyone's ideas about predicted insanity, so how about this one instead of my normal good morning? http://tinyurl.com/22okyqm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100929/9927a3d9/attachment.html From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 15:56:11 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:56:11 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> Good Kete and Walt. I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two ago. Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no stupid ideas. Starting at the technical end and working down.. 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering Doctorate degrees in computer science. 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, electrical, etc.. 3. A mini mall inside. 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. 5. A year around flea market. Don From: Walt Wentz Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. WW On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt wrote: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100929/6901f5a8/attachment.gif From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 16:11:13 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:11:13 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Sanity References: <7829-4CA37CE3-428@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <4CA3C78D.000015.01872@DON-B2514E06367> Yesterday is history. Today is excellent. Tomorrow is the future. So good luck. Don -------Original Message------- From: Alan Domenghini Date: 9/29/2010 10:52:48 AM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: [Grovenet] Hosstyle Sanity ~A~ Typo's or not, That is my story and I'm stickin' to it! :?) rain up date _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100929/6a1377e0/attachment.gif From waltw at teleport.com Wed Sep 29 19:06:01 2010 From: waltw at teleport.com (Walt Wentz) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367><01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com><4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367><6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com><4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367><998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com><710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com><4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com><51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com><8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com><1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com><181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <10EEFE99-F849-4901-900D-06EABBCEF5C8@teleport.com> All good ideas, Don, although the subject may be moot now judging from the story in today's News-Times. The owner says he already has some inquiries from potential renters. If so, i hope they do their homework. > I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two > ago. > > Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no > stupid ideas. > > Starting at the technical end and working down.. > > 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering > Doctorate > degrees in computer science. A satellite campus for Rock Creek CC maybe? It's a long drive out to Rock Creek, and certainly a computer school always attracts business. > > 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, > electrical, etc.. Would be handy if the housing industry comes back. Conversely, could also be a school for small farming, landscaping (plenty of room in the parking lot), beauty college, etc. Depending on the condition of the building, any specialist school could help Cornelius quite a lot. Maybe Pacific U needs a satellite campus? > > 3. A mini mall inside. They had one once, on the west end of the building. Think they still have a general merchandise Mexican mall there. > > 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. Be good for one day of the week, but would depend on the rental costs. > > 5. A year around flea market. Certainly would be a better venue than the Banner Flea Market, outside of Hillsboro. Would depend on how high the rent is. WW > > Don > > > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. > But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on > National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, > Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. > WW > On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt > wrote:_______________________________________ > ________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:36:36 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 21:36:36 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <10EEFE99-F849-4901-900D-06EABBCEF5C8@teleport.com> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> <10EEFE99-F849-4901-900D-06EABBCEF5C8@teleport.com> Message-ID: Hmmm, I'm really curious about what kind of business would be looking at the Grande building. Doubtful it will be anything retail (at least it would appear that such an undertaking would be pretty foolish in this economic climate).Perhaps it might be a relocation of an existing business in the area. If anyone hears anything, please post it to the list. Who do you think the potential occupants might be? Warehouse? Manufacturing? Education? Social Services? Specialty market? Car Dealership? Agricultural/Farm Store? What kind of business could possibly see this location as a sound investment? jimz On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > All good ideas, Don, although the subject may be moot now judging > from the story in today's News-Times. The owner says he already has > some inquiries from potential renters. If so, i hope they do their > homework. > > > I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two > > ago. > > > > Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no > > stupid ideas. > > > > Starting at the technical end and working down.. > > > > 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering > > Doctorate > > degrees in computer science. > > A satellite campus for Rock Creek CC maybe? It's a long drive out to > Rock Creek, and certainly a computer school always attracts business. > > > > 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, > > electrical, etc.. > > Would be handy if the housing industry comes back. Conversely, could > also be a school for small farming, landscaping (plenty of room in > the parking lot), beauty college, etc. Depending on the condition of > the building, any specialist school could help Cornelius quite a lot. > Maybe Pacific U needs a satellite campus? > > > > 3. A mini mall inside. > > They had one once, on the west end of the building. Think they still > have a general merchandise Mexican mall there. > > > > 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. > > Be good for one day of the week, but would depend on the rental costs. > > > > 5. A year around flea market. > > Certainly would be a better venue than the Banner Flea Market, > outside of Hillsboro. Would depend on how high the rent is. > WW > > > > Don > > > > > > > > From: Walt Wentz > > Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > > > Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. > > But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on > > National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, > > Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. > > WW > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote:_______________________________________ > > ________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > From ocollaugh at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 23:17:27 2010 From: ocollaugh at comcast.net (donkelly) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 23:17:27 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> <10EEFE99-F849-4901-900D-06EABBCEF5C8@teleport.com> Message-ID: <4CA42B76.000009.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Maybe building and lumber supply. FG has a couple well established, one not very convenient, and the next nearest is TV highway Hillsboro. Don -------Original Message------- From: Jim Zaleski Date: 9/29/2010 9:37:27 PM To: Forest Grove local interests list Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: Hmmm, I'm really curious about what kind of business would be looking at the Grande building. Doubtful it will be anything retail (at least it would appear that such an undertaking would be pretty foolish in this economic climate).Perhaps it might be a relocation of an existing business in the area. If anyone hears anything, please post it to the list. Who do you think the potential occupants might be? Warehouse? Manufacturing? Education? Social Services? Specialty market? Car Dealership? Agricultural/Farm Store? What kind of business could possibly see this location as a sound investment? jimz On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > All good ideas, Don, although the subject may be moot now judging > from the story in today's News-Times. The owner says he already has > some inquiries from potential renters. If so, i hope they do their > homework. > > > I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two > > ago. > > > > Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no > > stupid ideas. > > > > Starting at the technical end and working down.. > > > > 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering > > Doctorate > > degrees in computer science. > > A satellite campus for Rock Creek CC maybe? It's a long drive out to > Rock Creek, and certainly a computer school always attracts business. > > > > 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, > > electrical, etc.. > > Would be handy if the housing industry comes back. Conversely, could > also be a school for small farming, landscaping (plenty of room in > the parking lot), beauty college, etc. Depending on the condition of > the building, any specialist school could help Cornelius quite a lot. > Maybe Pacific U needs a satellite campus? > > > > 3. A mini mall inside. > > They had one once, on the west end of the building. Think they still > have a general merchandise Mexican mall there. > > > > 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. > > Be good for one day of the week, but would depend on the rental costs. > > > > 5. A year around flea market. > > Certainly would be a better venue than the Banner Flea Market, > outside of Hillsboro. Would depend on how high the rent is. > WW > > > > Don > > > > > > > > From: Walt Wentz > > Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > > > Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. > > But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on > > National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, > > Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. > > WW > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt > > wrote:_______________________________________ > > ________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > _______________________________________________ GroveNet mailing list GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 46417 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/attachments/20100929/95bbb76d/attachment.gif From jimzzz42 at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 00:14:54 2010 From: jimzzz42 at gmail.com (Jim Zaleski) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 00:14:54 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA42B76.000009.01424@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> <10EEFE99-F849-4901-900D-06EABBCEF5C8@teleport.com> <4CA42B76.000009.01424@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: I thought about building supply, but remembered that 64 Lumber came into FG a few years back, built a huge facility south of town (in back of Pro-Build) and in less than a year went belly up. I asked one of the employees there about the reason for their departure, and they said the market was just too weak to keep their operation open. They dumped a big chunk of change to buy and build their warehouse here, so it must have been pretty bad that they suddenly closed down and moved lock, stock and barrel out of town. I'm not certain, but I think it's still vacant. Pro-Build, used to be Lumberman's until it merged with another small company. I understand that this is one of the reasons they're still afloat. With the stagnate construction situation, I'd be surprised if another building supply company decided to take up shop. Of course I could be wrong. Maybe it's going to be a bowling alley!!! Chucky Cheeze??? An Etcher-Sketch factory? A new location of the International Rutabaga Institute perhaps (although I don't think they'd dare move it out of Forest Grove after all these years)??? jimz On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:17 PM, donkelly wrote: > Maybe building and lumber supply. > > FG has a couple well established, one not very convenient, and the next > nearest is TV highway Hillsboro. > > Don > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Jim Zaleski > Date: 9/29/2010 9:37:27 PM > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > Hmmm, I'm really curious about what kind of business would be looking at > the > Grande building. Doubtful it will be anything retail (at least it would > appear that such an undertaking would be pretty foolish in this economic > climate).Perhaps it might be a relocation of an existing business in the > area. If anyone hears anything, please post it to the list. Who do you > think > the potential occupants might be? Warehouse? Manufacturing? Education? > Social Services? Specialty market? Car Dealership? Agricultural/Farm Store? > What kind of business could possibly see this location as a sound > investment? > > jimz > > On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Walt Wentz wrote: > > > All good ideas, Don, although the subject may be moot now judging > > from the story in today's News-Times. The owner says he already has > > some inquiries from potential renters. If so, i hope they do their > > homework. > > > > > I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two > > > ago. > > > > > > Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no > > > stupid ideas. > > > > > > Starting at the technical end and working down.. > > > > > > 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering > > > Doctorate > > > degrees in computer science. > > > > A satellite campus for Rock Creek CC maybe? It's a long drive out to > > Rock Creek, and certainly a computer school always attracts business. > > > > > > 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, > > > electrical, etc.. > > > > Would be handy if the housing industry comes back. Conversely, could > > also be a school for small farming, landscaping (plenty of room in > > the parking lot), beauty college, etc. Depending on the condition of > > the building, any specialist school could help Cornelius quite a lot. > > Maybe Pacific U needs a satellite campus? > > > > > > 3. A mini mall inside. > > > > They had one once, on the west end of the building. Think they still > > have a general merchandise Mexican mall there. > > > > > > 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. > > > > Be good for one day of the week, but would depend on the rental costs. > > > > > > 5. A year around flea market. > > > > Certainly would be a better venue than the Banner Flea Market, > > outside of Hillsboro. Would depend on how high the rent is. > > WW > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Walt Wentz > > > Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 > > > To: Forest Grove local interests list > > > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > > > > > Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. > > > But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on > > > National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, > > > Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. > > > WW > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt > > > wrote:_______________________________________ > > > ________ > > > GroveNet mailing list > > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > > _______________________________________________ > > GroveNet mailing list > > GroveNet at rdrop.com > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > _______________________________________________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet > > From ejbaeza at mac.com Thu Sep 30 06:33:59 2010 From: ejbaeza at mac.com (Edward Baeza) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 06:33:59 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: In-Reply-To: <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> References: <4C999BFF.000017.03912@DON-B2514E06367> <01ad01cb5aa7$45dd2430$d1976c90$@com> <4C9D194D.00000E.01176@DON-B2514E06367> <6CFE1913-16C8-4E63-90E4-F02906FD85CA@frontier.com> <4C9E26BE.5020700@gmail.com> <4C9E2C81.00000A.02236@DON-B2514E06367> <998008297-1285435819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293852527-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4CA1F0DC.3000807@gmail.com> <710FD67B-3DEA-444D-930E-C591FF59D0DD@teleport.com> <4CA22A4F.6070806@gmail.com> <51CE73B3-03C2-4041-B287-7EB00F321B0A@mac.com> <8D62D474-EE2E-457E-84DC-77641F1443A7@teleport.com> <1E2E74CB-BAC5-4B11-8DD6-8CC9609B2A64@mac.com> <181093AAB1AE40ECAF970F4FE052213F@EdDaviePC> <"F3641370-A6EC-4123-B38 D-003A956010BB"@teleport.com> <252238617-1285726933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-901855103-@bda284.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <634A149A-AE83-4843-9745-11467A6CB48C@frontier.com> <7C2DBB18-5BF3-45AC-BBC7-348DB8A09775@teleport.com> <4CA3C401.00000C.01872@DON-B2514E06367> Message-ID: <35024908-4F16-45DA-ACD5-A28ED4CC2681@mac.com> Don, I like the indoor Saturday market and year around indoor flea market ideas. It'll be interesting to see what happens. EJ On Sep 29, 2010, at 3:56 PM, donkelly wrote: > Good Kete and Walt. > > I was thinking about the Grande building we discussed a day or two > ago. > > Can we brain storm this a bit. In brain storming there are no > stupid ideas. > > Starting at the technical end and working down.. > > 1. A small university dedicated to one subject, like delivering > Doctorate > degrees in computer science. > > 2. A trade training school, building skills in carpentry, plumbing, > electrical, etc.. > > 3. A mini mall inside. > > 4. A Saturday Market with stalls inside and outside. > > 5. A year around flea market. > > Don > > > > From: Walt Wentz > Date: 09/29/10 10:28:57 > To: Forest Grove local interests list > Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Some sanity Was: As we predicted: > > Right on, Kate! You've nailed it. > But, since none of us local folk have the slightest effect on > National fiscal policy, let's also talk about what we can do, > Locally, to reclaim our local economy from the fat cats. > WW > On Sep 28, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Katie Allnutt > wrote:_______________________________________ > ________ > GroveNet mailing list > GroveNet at rdrop.com > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet From jo.david at frontier.com Thu Sep 30 22:33:48 2010 From: jo.david at frontier.com (David Morelli) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:33:48 -0700 Subject: [Grovenet] St Francis Blessing of the Animals at Forest Grove First Wednesday Message-ID: <80B09B05-40A0-4B2C-8966-D83552F54EFA@frontier.com> At the Forest Grove "First Wednesday" event this coming October 6th, Mtr. Julie, the rector of St. Bede's Episcopal Church, will be conducting their annual Saint Francis Blessing of the Animals on the United Church of Christ lawn area. Expect a crowd and handle your pet accordingly. Perhaps, you should call in advance before bringing elephants, water buffalo, pet whales, or other large animals. David