[Grovenet] who wins in Wisconsin?

donkelly ocollaugh at comcast.net
Thu Sep 1 16:00:39 PDT 2011


But it wasn't shared by the unions was it? Big business and union is big business. No different.

don



----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:40:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] who wins in Wisconsin?

The situation as described would seem more plausible if Walker  
himself acted upon it. But the fact that this increasingly scarce  
money was poured into the pockets of his corporate henchmen (and that  
floods of corporate and special-interest money were poured into the  
recall battle) would indicate that not even the Republicans involved  
subscribe to this argument. In short, They may have "talked the  
talk", but the walk that they walked was, "everyone must lower their  
expectations, give up the remnants of their power and accept a  
smaller piece of the pie-- except for the wealthy and powerful, who  
will decide how (or if) the pie is divided."
WW
On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:30 PM, donkelly wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#Early_modern_liberalism
>
> The fall can be traced back to the beginning, and graphed today.  
> This did not happen when Obanation started. It began a century ago.
>
> http://www.seedsforthought.org/articles/lib_con.htm
>
> TAX AND SPEND ADVOCATES?
>
>
> No wonder their status among up to 88% of Americans has steadily  
> fallen with the sinking of our economy.
>
> Marian said, "Isn't that what good competition should be
> about?"
>
> To that I would conditionally agree.
>
> In a state where teacher salaries start at 36,000 a year and top  
> out after 20 years to $56,000 per year, the starting salaries are  
> fixed and non discriminatory......all starting teachers whether  
> union or not should receive the same salary.
>
> The union teachers pay more out for union dues, but that is their  
> choice. And teachers like everyone else should pay part of their  
> health insurance.
>
> At the extreme, and very unfair, is compulsory unionism along with  
> compulsory dues. All teachers should be treated equally, and pay  
> increases should be based on performance, not based on union  
> demands which have nothing in common with performance, except time.
>
> But in closing, liberals can blame their fallen reputations to a  
> certain degree on themselves.
>
> They seem not to understand that government cannot continue to  
> spend money it doesn't have, then borrow money to pay debts. The  
> conservatives understand that fact......a day of reconing, most of  
> them anyway it seems, while the liberals do not understand the  
> basic and painful facts.......you can't do it without  
> money......and the money comes out of your pockets, and all of our  
> pockets.
>
> Sure most of my views are conservative, but sometimes liberal and  
> oft times democratic or republican......all have some good points  
> which could be put together in a mix that benefits everyone.
>
> dk
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walt Wentz" <waltw at teleport.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 9:27:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] who wins in Wisconsin?
>
> It took only a few years for them to "reframe"  the word "liberal"
> into an obscenity, because ordinary working people didn't identify
> with it. But so far, the phrase "living wage" is bulletproof because
> it is a working-class ideal, and so you seldom hear it mentioned at
> all in Republican circles.
> WW
> On Sep 1, 2011, at 8:52 AM, redwagon wrote:
>
>> I'd say you hit the nail on the head.
>>
>> In addition, it seems we are traveling down quite a hole.  The R's
>> are doing
>> their best to erode pay and benefits of anyone living a comfortable
>> lifestyle - it becomes a downward spiral affecting everyone.  It
>> gives those
>> in power, license to demean and treat everyone badly.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be better to try to raise everyone up to good pay and
>> benefits?
>> Wouldn't everyone benefit?  Isn't that what good competition  
>> should be
>> about?
>>
>> Marian
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Steele, Mike
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 8:19 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] who wins in Wisconsin?
>>
>> One wonders why the Rs are so indifferent to, or hostile to, the
>> life of the
>> mind.  Is education in itself a threat to their "program"?
>>
>> --Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-
>> bounces at rdrop.com] On
>> Behalf Of Walt Wentz
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:45 AM
>> To: Forest Grove local interests list
>> Subject: [Grovenet] who wins in Wisconsin?
>>
>> Interesting article at  http://www.care2.com/causes/wisconsin-
>> teachers-retire-en-masse-in-response-to-cuts.html#ixzz1WiD0xhEs
>>
>>
>> When Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker and his GOP cronies in the
>> Legislature strong-armed through a union-busting bill, they touted
>> the effects it would have on the free market. Well, the market has
>> spoken, and it's not happy. Associate Press reported today that
>> teachers in Wisconsin are retiring at twice the normal rate in
>> response to budget cuts that affect their benefits and ability to
>> collectively bargain.
>>
>> Though many public sectors in Wisconsin are seeing more retirements
>> than usual, for schools this is especially problematic, as fewer
>> teachers means even larger class sizes. It's quickly turning into a
>> veritable teacher shortage; the district of Beloit, for example, has
>> seen 10% of their teachers retire, meaning that they have far more
>> vacancies than they can reasonably hope to fill before the year
>> starts.
>>
>> Perhaps an even bigger problem is that most of the retirements are
>> coming from veteran teachers, who have been in the system for years.
>> Green Bay German teacher Ginny Fleck is quoted by AP as saying, "All
>> of the leadership is gone. Some of these younger people who come in
>> need help from the older teachers and they are gone. Plus, the morale
>> is really down." Fleck goes on to say that one reason why she
>> considered leaving was the economics: if she was to stay as a
>> teacher, the hit she would take would have been so large that she
>> would have lost $8,000...
>>
>>
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