[Grovenet] emigration with ill will.

Walt Wentz waltw at teleport.com
Tue Sep 6 11:56:09 PDT 2011


The debate also goes back to the European concept of land ownership.  
Highly migratory tribes like the Piute lived in very small bands, yet  
covered enormous territories in their annual rounds. They didn't  
consider themselves as "owners" of all that land, merely as living in  
harmony with other animals in the same region. Agrarian communities  
like the Hopi didn't have to wander, and had a deep spiritual  
connection to their immediate surroundings. You could argue they came  
closer to the European concept of "owning" their land, although to  
their view, the land owned them.
When a homesteader plowed up a traditional camas field or planted  
hogs on a traditional wintering site, arguably he was "stealing" land  
from the wandering Piutes. And yet, any aggressive tribe like the  
Tillamook or Klickitat expanding their territory by pushing weaker  
tribes away, or scaring them out of their territory by slave raids,  
could also be said to be stealing land. Yet the life traditionally  
associated with that land was still possible..
In fact, what the immigrants did was to occupy and alter places that  
had  traditionally provided food, shelter and spiritual meaning to  
the original inhabitants, and to outnumber those original inhabitants  
to the point that resistance or protest was futile. By breaking up  
the world into discrete little fragments covered with fences,  
boundaries and titles, they rendered the traditional life impossible.  
By reducing the original inhabitants destitute and dependent, or  
pushing them onto reservations, they ensured that they would not be  
able to "own" land of their own until they had been assimilated into  
the invading culture.
On Sep 6, 2011, at 9:31 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:

> It was more of a point about Don and David's posts.  Do land owners  
> in the
> states Don listed have a right to defend their land by any means  
> necessary?
> Or as David stated if Manifest Destiny was acceptable in American
> history, it was met with a good deal of resistance by those who  
> didn't agree
> with it, understandable so in my opinion.  The question then  
> becomes do the
> current landowners have the right to defend the land using the same  
> methods
> that the previous landowners used when their land was being taken?
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Edward Baeza <ejbaeza at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Adam,
>> What people are you talking about?  The Native Americans?  Also,  
>> among many
>> followers of Ayn Rand, there is the conviction that nobody has the  
>> right to
>> own land.  They asserted that only the right regarding land was  
>> the right to
>> the "use of land" is moral and that right had to be acquired in a  
>> moral
>> agreement between the original steward of the land and the party  
>> applying
>> for stewardship.  Also, if the right to the "use of land" belongs  
>> to anyone
>> it belongs to those who first established and demonstrated  
>> responsible
>> stewardship of the land.  There are human events that cannot be  
>> resisted by
>> boarders, laws or any other artificial effort.  The face of  
>> American is
>> changing because the face of the world is changing.  That's an  
>> undeniable
>> fact.  The future belongs to those who face facts and then plan  
>> for it in a
>> moral, compassionate and intelligent manner.  All I hear from the
>> anti-immagrant crowd is resentment, fear, anger and denial.  When  
>> was the
>> last time you voted for someo!
>>  ne who said that they were going to lead this country using  
>> resentment,
>> fear, anger and denial?
>>
>> E. J.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2011, at 5:28 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
>>
>>> During Manifest Destiny many of the people who lived in the west  
>>> fought
>>> against the "invaders" in a number violent battles to protect  
>>> their land.
>>> Does this mean the people of the southwest have the right to protect
>> their
>>> land in the same fashion?
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:50 PM, David Morelli  
>>> <jo.david at frontier.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, you like "Manifest Destiny" when it was used to add land to the
>> United
>>>> States, but don't like the same method when someone else  
>>>> proposes it for
>>>> their population?
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 3, 2011, at 10:16 AM, donkelly wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What do we do to protect California, Nevada, Arizona, New  
>>>>> Mexico, and
>>>> parts of Colorado and Idaho, from runaway emigration?
>>>>>
>>>>> They say: "The Conquest of Aztlan"
>>>>>
>>>>> By Glenn Spencer
>>>>>
>>>>> "Could Mexico retake the southwestern United States?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not only are the Mexicans capable, but an invasion is underway,  
>>>>> insists
>>>> immigration expert Glenn Spencer."
>>>>>
>>>>> don
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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