[Grovenet] emigration with ill will.

donkelly ocollaugh at comcast.net
Tue Sep 6 12:47:40 PDT 2011

Some of us from California may have unknowingly lived on a Spanish Land Grant awarded by the King of Spain. 

Until I was ten years old I lived on a portion of a huge land grant known in history as Villa Los Coyotes.


The original grant by the King of Spain was huge, extending from Orange County to the coast of Los Angeles County. At cessation around 1848 or so, the American Government decided to honor ownership by the original land grants, who later sold their land to Americans.

Eventually a New York publishing company known as Rand-McNally purchased Villa Los Coyotes and changed the name to Rand McNally.
When I lived on the ranch, our tractor driver Mr. McNally was a descendent of the original American owner. He came from England, and boy could he cuss.

Another guy I liked a lot was a Japanese named Iwata. He was in charge of irrigation. After Perle Harbor he and the Japanese families were taken away.....my friends disappeared overnight....taken away be Army soldiers in Deuce and a half trucks.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Steele" <steelem at pacificu.edu>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 12:11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] emigration with ill will.

I would add to Walt's points that the concept of "ownership" was VERY different among the natives here.  It was a monumental clash of values when they encountered--and suffered from--Western European notions of ownership.  For a sense of this, see McLuhan's book *Touch the Earth*--a collection of quotations on a variety of topics from tribal people.  One might as well have tried to buy the air around one's head...it's that different.


-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On Behalf Of Adam Mayer
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:58 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] emigration with ill will.

I disagree about no sense of land ownership.  Just because there isn't a documented system doesn't mean people didn't believe in owning their land.
People are willing to share land but if someone shows up and tells you to leave you will be fighting to protect your land.  Pretty much all of the United States came from someone else, sometimes purchased from the last owner, sometimes taken from them.  It's not always a fair system, but it's what we have.  I see three choices the US government can make, 1) Say too bad for your loss but it belongs to the US now; 2) Negotiate by selling some of the land to another country; 3) Do nothing and leave it up to the current landowners to take the law into their own hands.


On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 11:48 AM, donkelly <ocollaugh at comcast.net> wrote:

> Good morning all, David, Adam and E.J.
> The term Manifest Destiny was coined by John L. Sullavin in 1845 and 
> thereafter the idea was promoted by the Democrats.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny
> But Manifest Destiny was not the beginning of expansionism in America, 
> and certainly not in every other country in the world.
> Manifest Destiny by other words was followed by Germany and Japan in 
> World War II, and by other invaders and settlers far back into history.
> The English like in America considered Australia and New Zealand as 
> land for the taking and Aborigine's had no rights. Yet while the 
> Democratic party in America was struggling over native rights, the 
> Australian people voted 91% to extend full constitutional rights to the Aborigine's.
> And yes, the originals peoples in most areas of the world fought 
> against invaders to save their hunting lands. As hunters and 
> gatherers, both Indians here and Aborigine's in Australia had no sense 
> of land ownership, they hunted and gathered in one place then moved on 
> to better places to hunt, eventually starting to add farming to their transient lifestyles.
> I think we can make some distinctions with Mexico. Spain sailed along 
> the western coast and claimed California, Oregon, Washington, west 
> coast of Canada and Alaska, but their efforts to settle was limited to 
> building missions from San Diego up to San Francisco, while the north 
> of California was occupied by Russian trappers.
> Likewise Spain claimed Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, parts of Colorado 
> and Texas, but settlement was mainly ranches in Texas, and missions in 
> Arizona and Mexico, and though Nevada was claimed, no attempt was made 
> by Spain to settle, though they did some mining of resources.
> Then came Cinco de Mayo where, like Colonial Americans did with 
> England, through off the yoke of Spain.
> So it appears that the Mexicans and Americans today, morally right or 
> wrong, have rights to manifest destiny. Though the American war with 
> Mexico gained land, it appears that most of the land gained by America 
> was by treaty and cash with Mexico, treaty and cash for the Louisiana 
> Purchase, treaty and cash for Alaska, and by will of the people of 
> Hawaii, joined the United States.
> And yes, the Constitution armed America to fight for and defend lands 
> they owned. It is a huge stretch to say that Mexico owns land in 
> California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. Ownership of those states 
> was settled legally long ago. And I think if it came down to fighting, 
> Nevadans would fight for their land too. It appears that the government still owns most of Nevada.
> don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Mayer" <adamsmayer at gmail.com>
> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:31:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] emigration with ill will.
> It was more of a point about Don and David's posts.  Do land owners in 
> the states Don listed have a right to defend their land by any means necessary?
> Or as David stated if Manifest Destiny was acceptable in American 
> history, it was met with a good deal of resistance by those who didn't 
> agree with it, understandable so in my opinion.  The question then 
> becomes do the current landowners have the right to defend the land 
> using the same methods that the previous landowners used when their 
> land was being taken?
> Adam
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Edward Baeza <ejbaeza at mac.com> wrote:
> > Adam,
> > What people are you talking about?  The Native Americans?  Also, 
> > among
> many
> > followers of Ayn Rand, there is the conviction that nobody has the 
> > right
> to
> > own land.  They asserted that only the right regarding land was the 
> > right
> to
> > the "use of land" is moral and that right had to be acquired in a 
> > moral agreement between the original steward of the land and the 
> > party applying for stewardship.  Also, if the right to the "use of 
> > land" belongs to
> anyone
> > it belongs to those who first established and demonstrated 
> > responsible stewardship of the land.  There are human events that 
> > cannot be resisted
> by
> > boarders, laws or any other artificial effort.  The face of American 
> > is changing because the face of the world is changing.  That's an 
> > undeniable fact.  The future belongs to those who face facts and 
> > then plan for it in
> a
> > moral, compassionate and intelligent manner.  All I hear from the 
> > anti-immagrant crowd is resentment, fear, anger and denial.  When 
> > was the last time you voted for someo!
> >  ne who said that they were going to lead this country using 
> > resentment, fear, anger and denial?
> >
> > E. J.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 6, 2011, at 5:28 AM, Adam Mayer wrote:
> >
> > > During Manifest Destiny many of the people who lived in the west 
> > > fought against the "invaders" in a number violent battles to 
> > > protect their
> land.
> > > Does this mean the people of the southwest have the right to 
> > > protect
> > their
> > > land in the same fashion?
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
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