[Oeva-list] Speed limits and my legislative proposals

John RA Benson jrab at e-m-w.com
Tue Jan 6 23:20:48 PST 2009


I think it's more about the engineering of the vehicles ­ NEV's aren't
designed to go fast, to handle forces at 40/50/60, crash or no crash. To use
your plane analogy,  would you fly your small airplane if I swapped the ICE
for a jet engine powerful enough to rip the wings off? Would the person that
did that mod be happy to say, "Well, he shouldn't have been flying against
the wind, so it's his fault the wings fell off when he hit turbulence." I
don¹t think they'd win in court, training or not.

Besides, we have EV's that are fast and street legal. I don't think allowing
souped up NEV's on freeways is a good way to promote EV's. If 45 is fast
enough, then won't someone want to take it to 50?  Get rid of the ICE in the
car that is engineered properly and convert it. But parts are still just too
dang expensive to make conversions something for everyone. We need
incentives to make conversions affordable enough so more people do them or
hire shops to do it for them. Speed limit increases for NEV's seem more like
a distraction for more important issues, and could potentially harm the
cause when the report of an NEV having a fatality pops in the news,
accompanied by the sound byte, "the legislature just increased the allowable
speed". 

jrab

On 1/6/09 7:56 PM, "bob at research13.com" <bob at research13.com> wrote:

> I don't see mph beign Federally regulated anytime soon.  For example, AZ and
> ID helmet laws mean that brain injured bikers in those states jack up
> insurance/healthcare costs because helmet laws are not inforced.
>  
> I'm not sure on the modification of making vehicles go faster is bad in and of
> itself.  For me, the power to go 45mph means I could go with traffic and
> perhaps power a hill a bit better.  This might make me more likely to buy an
> EV for neighborhood use whereas at 35mph, it's hard to even take my kids to
> school without irritating rushing commuters.
>  
> Personally, seems like making things faster is innovation and yankee ingenuity
> and shouldn't be penalized by itself.  I still like to think of our country as
> the land of the free, home of the brave, and that we can handle safety through
> training and licensing and I'd hate to see manufacturers penalized too
> heavily.  Over time with good communications I think consumers of EVs would be
> smart enough to want crash tested vehicles.  Tesla cars go really fast - and
> that's a personal choice which would make the "already crash tested Tesla"
> appear unsafe.   In Europe they don't always have guard rails on freeway
> systems, yet, many drivers are very safe on these same roads.  Keeps the
> responsibility for safety on the driver and it sure makes drivers slow down.
>  
> I've been behind a guy in town who has a Jet turbine powered motorcycle that
> is street legal. Jay Leno also has one. Motorcycles are statistically quite
> safe and I think NEVs are more safe than motorcycles and should be treated
> accordingly.   Perhaps it is too paternalistic, but maybe NEV drivers should
> have to have some training or pass a test to go at speeds so that people are
> clear about the danger of a vehicle that isn't crash tested.    Of course,
> people think I'm crazy because I fly small airplanes.  The trip to the airport
> in my crash tested heavy automobile is millions of times more risky,
> statistically, than flying the plane.  The reason is the pilot training and
> annual inspections of the plane by Federally certified mechanics and bi-annual
> reviews of the pilot by Federally tested Flight Instructors.  And, I know my
> limitations and would not fly in the weather of tonight or recent weeks-  Part
> of the reason planes are safe is that pilots don't fly in risky situations.
>  
> Also interesting, it has been proven that "speeders" (those that get speeding
> tickets) are safer than those that do not get caught speeding.  However,
> insurance companies ding you for a speeding ticket without looking at safety.
> Additionally, insurance companies routinely have underwritten the cost of
> radar for police.  Hmm.  Alcohol is the major contributor to fatalities in
> motorcycles,  small planes, cars and ICE autos.  Many fatalities in Oregon are
> where speed limites are under 30 with drinking drivers.
>  
> I think it would be better to reduce drinking and driving than limiting NEV
> miles per hour.  MPH is one measurement.  Safety is another.  Greenhouse gas
> mitigationn is another measure which also ties to safety of the masses in the
> long run.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Barnes [mailto:barnes.rick at verizon.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 06:12 PM
>> To: ''Philip Kollas''
>> Cc: ''OEVA''
>> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Speed limits and my legislative proposals
>> 
>> I drove low speed for several years, and I think it is a mistake to speed
>> modify and drive these vehicles faster than 25, and it is a mistake to drive
>> them on 35 mph streets (even though this is currently allowed). I would like
>> to see a federal vehicle class change, not state changes. A better choice is
>> a NHTSA safety tested vehicle which will go 40 and be limited to 35 MPH
>> streets?. and limit existing 25 MPH low speed vehicles designed under the
>> current standard to 25 MPH streets. Current rules are bad 25 on 35 MPH
>> streets, want to get killed? And you may not drive a low speed vehicle in the
>> bike lane even for a minute to let cars pass per ORS statutes. I plan to
>> oppose any legislation to raise the speed limit for these vehicles. You need
>> to look again at the Oregon Statutes. There are ORS rules for Low Speed
>> Vehicles. (need to search for ?low-speed?) 811.512 Unlawfully operating
>> low-speed vehicle on highway; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of
>> unlawfully operating a low-speed vehicle on a highway if the person operates
>> a low-speed vehicle on a highway that has a speed limit or posted speed of
>> more than 35 miles per hour.       (2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) of this
>> section, a city or county may adopt an ordinance allowing operation of
>> low-speed vehicles on city streets or county roads that have speed limits or
>> posted speeds of more than 35 miles per hour.       (3) The offense described
>> in this section, unlawfully operating a low-speed vehicle on a highway, is a
>> Class B traffic violation. [2001 c.293 §8] The Federal standard is
>> 49CFR571.3,500 
>> http://www.mmucc.us/MMUCCTraining/lessons/crashdamage/motorvehiclebodytype_fi
>> les/motorvehiclebodytype14.htm Rick Barnes Aloha, OR From:
>> oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On Behalf Of
>> Philip Kollas
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:48 AM
>> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
>> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Speed limits and my legislative proposals
>>  Thanks to all for the lively commentary on my legislative proposals.  The
>> issue of whether Oregon can modify the current arbitrary speed limit on EVs
>> is not as sinister as it might seem to some?this is not the case of assisted
>> suicide or anything like that.
>> 
>> I did some checking in the Oregon Revised Statutes and came up empty; there
>> appears to be no state statute specifically limiting EV speeds.  However,
>> somewhere it must be possible for each state to allow certain EV speeds, as I
>> found the following FAQ note on an electric-vehicle site: Q.  Can I really
>> drive an electric vehicle on the streets?
>> A.  The Federal Government has ruled that neighborhood electric vehicles
>> (NEVs or Low Speed Vehicles), that meet their manufacturing standards can be
>> licensed and legally driven on roads of posted speeds of 25 mph or less.
>> Because of a progressive government in Washington State, it has been
>> determined that these are perfectly safe at speeds to 35 mph. Note that this
>> limit of 25 mph (35 in Wash.) refers only to NEVs.  I have yet to stumble
>> across any federal definition of NEV, so I?ll keep checking.  The point here
>> is, if Washington state was able to upward-revise the NEV speed limit, it
>> must be possible for Oregon to do likewise.  That?s what I asked my state rep
>> to push for, among other things.
>> 
>> And yes, I?ll be sure to push for good safety standards in electric vehicles,
>> so fear not.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Philip Kollas
>> ===========
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/5/09 12:00 PM, "oeva-list-request at oeva.org
>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> "
>> <oeva-list-request at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> > 
>>> >    1. Re: Legislative proposals (John RA Benson)
>>> >    2. Re: Legislative proposals (Alan Batie)
>>> >    3. Re: Legislative proposals (Nick Galaday)
>>> >    4. Re: Legislative proposals (Tony McCormick)
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > 
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:29:11 -0800
>>> > From: John RA Benson <jrab at e-m-w.com
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Legislative proposals
>>> > To: Oregon EV <oeva-list at oeva.org
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Message-ID: <C5865C17.1AE18%jrab at e-m-w.com
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>> > 
>>> > The 30 mph rule is about NEV's - vehicles like golf carts that don't pass
>>> or
>>> > need to pass crash tests. Nobody in their right mind would want to drive a
>>> > golf cart at 60 on the freeway. If a vehicle is built that an pass crash
>>> > tests, it can go as fast as it can. Since motorcycles (meaning 3 wheelers)
>>> > don't need to pass crash tests, they aren't speed limited. That is why
>>> fast
>>> > 3 wheeled EV's like the Sparrow are around, and fast 4 production wheelers
>>> > aren't - crash testing is expensive! That said, I'd take my chances in a
>>> > Sparrow over a motorcycle any day.
>>> > 
>>> > Take a car that HAS been crash tested and make it as fast as you want!
>>> > 
>>> > Like Don said, recycle those ICE into EV's and we can reduce the ICE
>>> impact
>>> > on landfills, take a polluter off the road and reduce consumerism with the
>>> > big auto manufacturers. Those are all Really Good Things. And we can do it
>>> > already. Tax incentives for converters and consumers that do conversions
>>> > would be show the state is interested in really promoting green values and
>>> > benefit a broader spectrum of the population, not just a few
>>> manufacturers.
>>> > 
>>> > Cheers
>>> > JRAB 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On 1/4/09 6:32 AM, "cje at hevanet.com
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> " <cje at hevanet.com
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> > wrote:
>>> > 
>>>> >> I'm not sure there's anything Oregon can do about the 30mph speed limit
>>>> >> issue. Isn't that a federal rule?
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> Curt
>>>> >> Lurkin'
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Oeva-list mailing list
>>>> >> Oeva-list at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > 
>>> > Message: 2
>>> > Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:35:54 -0800
>>> > From: Alan Batie <alan at batie.org
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Legislative proposals
>>> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>>> > Message-ID: <49611DAA.8090604 at batie.org
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> > 
>>> > cje at hevanet.com <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>  wrote:
>>>> >> I'm not sure there's anything Oregon can do about the 30mph speed limit
>>>> >> issue. Isn't that a federal rule?
>>> > 
>>> > I believe it is not an ev specific rule, but rather a limit on the speed
>>> > of vehicles that don't have to meet crash safety rules (airbags, 5mph
>>> > bumpers, etc).  I think the NEV category is simply an ev specific
>>> > subgroup, but as there are a large number of 4 wheeled evs that aren't
>>> > in it, it's annoying to see someone giving the impression that all evs
>>> > are low speed.  That said, I would like to see that limit raised to
>>> > 45mph, which would make them considerably more practical without
>>> > substantially endangering anyone.  But you're right, it is federal.  On
>>> > the other hand, I believe Oregon could legalize them on non-federal
>>> > highways, though it might jeopardize federal subsidies.  The new
>>> > administration may be amenable to such a change though...
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>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > 
>>> > Message: 3
>>> > Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:09:25 -0800
>>> > From: "Nick Galaday" <nickgaladay at msn.com
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Legislative proposals
>>> > To: <oeva-list at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>
>>> > Message-ID: <BAY113-DAV137AE281D4A1CE04F748C6BDE10 at phx.gbl
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>> > 
>>> > Made in Oregon?  How's this idea?  There are quite a number of worthy
>>> > foreign made cars that are not currently marketed in the US.  Most speak
>>> > some version of Latin such as Renault, Citroen, Alfa-Romeo or a couple of
>>> > Spanish models.  It seems to me the fastest, cheapest access to
>>> > manufacturing an EV here would be to import "gliders" (sans factory ICE)
>>> > under a special fleet purchase agreement and electrify them here.  I'm
>>> told
>>> > any design would have to be safety tested, requiring a large number of
>>> > prototypes, but why reinvent the entire wheel?  Venture capital anyone?
>>> > 
>>> > Nick Galaday
>>> > 
>>> > ___Energy Conservation
>>> >              .....saves more than energy!
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > 
>>> > Message: 4
>>> > Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:21:51 -0800
>>> > From: Tony McCormick <tony at notebene.net
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Legislative proposals
>>> > To: OEVA <oeva-list at oeva.org
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Message-ID: <49624FBF.3050606 at notebene.net
>>> <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#> >
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>> > 
>>> > US Electric did that in 1980 with the Renault LeCar ...  which is what I
>>> > started with.  Ie: my "conversion" was from 48volt SCR based to 120 Volt
>>> > PWM based... never saw an ICE engine,
>>> > --Tony
>>> > 
>>> > Nick Galaday wrote:
>>>> >> Made in Oregon?  How's this idea?  There are quite a number of worthy
>>>> >> foreign made cars that are not currently marketed in the US.  Most speak
>>>> >> some version of Latin such as Renault, Citroen, Alfa-Romeo or a couple
of
>>>> >> Spanish models.  It seems to me the fastest, cheapest access to
>>>> >> manufacturing an EV here would be to import "gliders" (sans factory ICE)
>>>> >> under a special fleet purchase agreement and electrify them here.  I'm
>>>> told
>>>> >> any design would have to be safety tested, requiring a large number of
>>>> >> prototypes, but why reinvent the entire wheel?  Venture capital anyone?
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> Nick Galaday
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> ___Energy Conservation
>>>> >>              .....saves more than energy!
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Oeva-list mailing list
>>>> >> Oeva-list at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>>>> >> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>>>> >> 
>>>> >> 
>>>> >>   
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > 
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Oeva-list mailing list
>>> > Oeva-list at oeva.org <https://www.networksolutionsemail.com/cgi-bin/#>
>>> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > End of Oeva-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 5
>>> > ****************************************
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Oeva-list mailing list
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> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list


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