[Oeva-list] Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5 "Thousands" of Pinto deaths etc.
mark barthemer
morbiusx1 at hotmail.com
Fri Feb 5 14:48:54 PST 2010
J wrote, among other things -
If you want to talk obfuscation let's talk about Ford and the Pinto. Thousands of people were killed and Ford took the line that it wasn't their problem. Finally after YEARS of people getting killed they FINALLY relented and recalled the car. The problem: a $.50 part that isolated the tail pipe or muffler for going into the gas tank. Ford thought it was cheaper to pay all the lawsuits than to recall the cars and put on the part. This is all facts, look 'em up.
The facts, indeed. Actually, design-related deaths were closer to 27, not "thousands," and the Pinto had better overall fatality rates than the contemporary Beetle, Datsun 1200/210 & others - it was in the middle of the pack. It was not a fifty cent part, more like $9 to $11 (I can hear the moans, but that's the analysis every manufacturer faces). And the gas tank ran into the differential, not tail pipe. See Prof Gary Schwartz, 43 Newark Law Rev. 1013. If you want to discuss this further without clogging the OEVA site, feel free to send your facts to me at my personal email address. He concludes it was neither a great car nor a horrid one. The folk memory of thousands of deaths is the disturbing thing. Corporations don't always do the right thing, but I'd rather see a discussion of an OEVA-relevant subject, like the Chevron refusal to license the batteries in the Prius and Rav4 Electric for further automotive uses - that's a scandal, and it gives support to all the snake oil peddlers who claim their brilliant ideas are suppressed by the Oil Companies. But Pinto is old news, usually poorly remembered.
Mark Parthemer morbiusx1 at hotmail.com
> From: oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> Subject: Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:23:42 -0800
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Oeva-list Digest, (Peakfoto Digital Photo Still n Video)
> 2. Re: Prius brake problems? (Myles Twete)
> 3. Prius brake problems? (Theoldcars at aol.com)
> 4. Re: Prius brake problems? (Janet Redhawk)
> 5. Re: Prius brake problems? (Myles Twete)
> 6. Re: Prius brake problems? (Janet Redhawk)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:29:21 -0800
> From: "Peakfoto Digital Photo Still n Video" <ken at peakfoto.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Oeva-list Digest,
> To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> Message-ID: <0CBD778274CB4DC2AC1332D2E4BEC2A7.MAI at exovian.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Any one a a good one at a reasonable price for AGM, and SLA or floddies?
>
> how about this.. http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulf.htm
>
> or
>
> http://www.batterytechsolutions.com/desulfator
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:35:24 -0800
> From: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> Message-ID: <004201caa5ea$5a42fbb0$0ec8f310$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I like it--he says that while his Prius seems to have software problems
> linked to sudden acceleration under cruise control, he isn't worried about
> it because his brakes work and he has a "radar system that regulates
> distance from other cars by slowing it down".
> -mt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On
> Behalf Of gfifield at onlinenw.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 6:46 AM
> To: Myles Twete
> Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
>
> Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
>
> http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
>
>
> >
> >
> > "report suggests is that sometimes the braking system in the Prius can
> > stop
> > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> >
> > http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> >
> > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for this.
> >
> >
> >
> > -mt
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Oeva-list mailing list
> Oeva-list at oeva.org
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:08:45 EST
> From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Message-ID: <17317.5bac3a80.389cad7d at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> I have had the following problem with many antilock brakes.
>
> Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or even a wet slick painted
> area. When the one wheel hits before another or one by itself with the brakes
> on. The few hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked up triggers the
> antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops much slower because the problem
> the system senses is only for a couple of feet. The system delays the
> vehicle stopping by rapidly pulsing on all the wheels and this vastly extends
> your stopping distance. Just about 100% of the time it is reacting to an event
> that would not have been a control problem and I hate it. This always seems
> to happen at slow speeds and it always seems to do it at a critical time.
> Like 20 or 30 feet before your going to hit something.
>
> I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a stop I have expectations
> that I will come to a stop in a predictable way.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> oeva-list-request at oeva.org writes:
>
> 1. Re: Prius brake problems? (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Message-ID:
> <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
>
> http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
>
>
> >
> >
> > "report suggests is that sometimes the braking system in the Prius can
> > stop
> > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> >
> > http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> >
> > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for this.
> >
> >
> >
> > -mt
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 16:23:56 -0800 (PST)
> From: Janet Redhawk <cyberdyke_1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Message-ID: <215942.45238.qm at web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars rates a congressional inquiry?
>
> Where was congress when the Pinto was killing thousands of people?
> Where was congress when Firestone tires were killing thousands of people?
>
> I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has become the #1 sales car in America and now they are showing how unhappy they are about it.
>
> J
>
> --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com <Theoldcars at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Theoldcars at aol.com <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have had the following?problem with
> > many?antilock brakes.
> > ?
> > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or
> > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one wheel hits
> > before another or one by itself with the brakes on. The few
> > hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked up triggers
> > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops much
> > slower because the problem the system senses is only for a
> > couple of feet. The system delays the vehicle stopping by
> > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this vastly
> > extends your stopping distance. Just about 100% of the time
> > it is reacting to an event that?would not have been a
> > control problem and I hate it. This always seems to happen
> > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it at
> > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before your
> > going to hit something.
> > ?
> > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a stop I
> > have expectations that I will come to a stop in a
> > predictable way.
> > ?
> > Don
> > ?
> > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org writes:
> > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID:
> > ? ?
> > <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> >
> > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "report suggests is that sometimes the braking
> > system in the Prius can
> > > stop
> > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > >
> > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -mt
> >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 16:57:57 -0800
> From: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> Message-ID: <001c01caa5fe$424f4d10$c6ede730$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> It's not the severity of the issues or that there's these recalls, it's that
> evidently Toyota has preferred obfuscation, runarounds and false blames for
> months rather than come out and announce a problem. People have died and
> politicos gets pressured when people die and there's evidence that more
> could have been done earlier. As for conspiracy of picking on Toyota,
> maybe, but then I don't hear them going after VW or Subaru---both also very
> popular here in Portlandistan.
> -mt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On
> Behalf Of Janet Redhawk
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:24 PM
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
>
> Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars rates a congressional
> inquiry?
>
> Where was congress when the Pinto was killing thousands of people?
> Where was congress when Firestone tires were killing thousands of people?
>
> I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has become the #1 sales car in
> America and now they are showing how unhappy they are about it.
>
> J
>
> --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com <Theoldcars at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Theoldcars at aol.com <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have had the following?problem with
> > many?antilock brakes.
> > ?
> > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or
> > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one wheel hits
> > before another or one by itself with the brakes on. The few
> > hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked up triggers
> > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops much
> > slower because the problem the system senses is only for a
> > couple of feet. The system delays the vehicle stopping by
> > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this vastly
> > extends your stopping distance. Just about 100% of the time
> > it is reacting to an event that?would not have been a
> > control problem and I hate it. This always seems to happen
> > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it at
> > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before your
> > going to hit something.
> > ?
> > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a stop I
> > have expectations that I will come to a stop in a
> > predictable way.
> > ?
> > Don
> > ?
> > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org writes:
> > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID:
> > ? ?
> > <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> >
> > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "report suggests is that sometimes the braking
> > system in the Prius can
> > > stop
> > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > >
> > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -mt
> >
> >
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Oeva-list mailing list
> Oeva-list at oeva.org
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:23:26 -0800 (PST)
> From: Janet Redhawk <cyberdyke_1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Message-ID: <46579.83483.qm at web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> That's not 100% true. Yes several people have died. Toyota HAS not used obfuscation or anything else to "cover up" the problem. When the first people were killed Toyota came right out and said they were recalling all Prius' for their floor matts, and that they were looking further into the situation to see if their might be a deeper cause.
>
> If you want to talk obfuscation let's talk about Ford and the Pinto. Thousands of people were killed and Ford took the line that it wasn't their problem. Finally after YEARS of people getting killed they FINALLY relented and recalled the car. The problem: a $.50 part that isolated the tail pipe or muffler for going into the gas tank. Ford thought it was cheaper to pay all the lawsuits than to recall the cars and put on the part. This is all facts, look 'em up.
>
> Now I don't want to get into a war on this site. I just think it ludicrous for the gov't to be involved in this car problem when we've had much bigger car/auto industry problems. And before people climb onto the band wagon for the lynching maybe they should check the facts.
>
> Stepping off my soap box.
>
> J
>
> --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Myles Twete <matwete at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > From: Myles Twete <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 4:57 PM
> > It's not the severity of the issues
> > or that there's these recalls, it's that
> > evidently Toyota has preferred obfuscation, runarounds and
> > false blames for
> > months rather than come out and announce a problem.?
> > People have died and
> > politicos gets pressured when people die and there's
> > evidence that more
> > could have been done earlier.? As for conspiracy of
> > picking on Toyota,
> > maybe, but then I don't hear them going after VW or
> > Subaru---both also very
> > popular here in Portlandistan.
> > -mt
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org
> > [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Janet Redhawk
> > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:24 PM
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> >
> > Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars rates a
> > congressional
> > inquiry?
> >
> > Where was congress when the Pinto was killing thousands of
> > people?
> > Where was congress when Firestone tires were killing
> > thousands of people?
> >
> > I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has become the
> > #1 sales car in
> > America and now they are showing how unhappy they are about
> > it.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com
> > <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> > <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> > >
> > >?
> > >?
> > >?
> > >
> > > I have had the following?problem with
> > > many?antilock brakes.
> > > ?
> > > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or
> > > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one wheel
> > hits
> > > before another or one by itself with the brakes on.
> > The few
> > > hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked up
> > triggers
> > > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops
> > much
> > > slower because the problem the system senses is only
> > for a
> > > couple of feet. The system delays the vehicle stopping
> > by
> > > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this vastly
> > > extends your stopping distance. Just about 100% of the
> > time
> > > it is reacting to an event that?would not have been
> > a
> > > control problem and I hate it. This always seems to
> > happen
> > > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it at
> > > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before your
> > > going to hit something.
> > > ?
> > > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a stop I
> > > have expectations that I will come to a stop in a
> > > predictable way.
> > > ?
> > > Don
> > > ?
> > > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> > > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> > writes:
> > > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: "Myles Twete" <matwete at comcast.net>
> > > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > > ? ?
> > > <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
> > > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> > >
> > > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "report suggests is that sometimes the braking
> > > system in the Prius can
> > > > stop
> > > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > > >
> > > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -mt
> > >?
> > >
> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Oeva-list mailing list
> > > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> > >
> >
> >
> > ? ? ?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Oeva-list mailing list
> Oeva-list at oeva.org
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
>
>
> End of Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5
> ****************************************
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