[Oeva-list] "Thousands" of Pinto deaths etc.
Janet Redhawk
cyberdyke_1 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 5 14:54:37 PST 2010
Mark,
thank you for bring the facts to the discussion.
I stand corrected on the number of people killed by the Pinto.
J
--- On Fri, 2/5/10, mark barthemer <morbiusx1 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: mark barthemer <morbiusx1 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5 "Thousands" of Pinto deaths etc.
> To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 2:48 PM
>
>
>
>
>
> J wrote, among other things -
> If you want to talk obfuscation let's talk about
> Ford and the Pinto. Thousands of people were killed and
> Ford took the line that it wasn't their problem.
> Finally after YEARS of people getting killed they FINALLY
> relented and recalled the car. The problem: a $.50 part
> that isolated the tail pipe or muffler for going into the
> gas tank. Ford thought it was cheaper to pay all the
> lawsuits than to recall the cars and put on the part. This
> is all facts, look 'em up.
>
> The facts, indeed. Actually, design-related deaths
> were closer to 27, not "thousands," and the Pinto
> had better overall fatality rates than the contemporary
> Beetle, Datsun 1200/210 & others - it was in the middle
> of the pack. It was not a fifty cent part, more like
> $9 to $11 (I can hear the moans, but that's the analysis
> every manufacturer faces). And the gas tank ran into
> the differential, not tail pipe. See Prof Gary
> Schwartz, 43 Newark Law Rev. 1013. If you want to
> discuss this further without clogging the OEVA site, feel
> free to send your facts to me at my personal email
> address. He concludes it was neither a great car nor a
> horrid one. The folk memory of thousands of deaths is
> the disturbing thing. Corporations don't always do
> the right thing, but I'd rather see a discussion of an
> OEVA-relevant subject, like the Chevron refusal to license
> the batteries in the Prius and Rav4 Electric for further
> automotive uses - that's a scandal, and it gives support
> to all the snake oil peddlers who claim their brilliant
> ideas are suppressed by the Oil Companies. But Pinto
> is old news, usually poorly remembered.
>
> Mark Parthemer morbiusx1 at hotmail.com
>
>
> > From: oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> > Subject: Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:23:42 -0800
> >
> > Send Oeva-list mailing list submissions to
> > oeva-list at oeva.org
> >
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> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Oeva-list Digest, (Peakfoto Digital Photo
> Still n Video)
> > 2. Re: Prius brake problems? (Myles Twete)
> > 3. Prius brake problems? (Theoldcars at aol.com)
> > 4. Re: Prius brake problems? (Janet Redhawk)
> > 5. Re: Prius brake problems? (Myles Twete)
> > 6. Re: Prius brake problems? (Janet Redhawk)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:29:21 -0800
> > From: "Peakfoto Digital Photo Still n Video"
> <ken at peakfoto.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Oeva-list Digest,
> > To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> > Message-ID:
> <0CBD778274CB4DC2AC1332D2E4BEC2A7.MAI at exovian.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Any one a a good one at a reasonable price for AGM,
> and SLA or floddies?
> >
> > how about this..
> http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulf.htm
> >
> > or
> >
> > http://www.batterytechsolutions.com/desulfator
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:35:24 -0800
> > From: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> > Message-ID:
> <004201caa5ea$5a42fbb0$0ec8f310$@net>
> > Content-Type:
> text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I like it--he says that while his Prius seems to have
> software problems
> > linked to sudden acceleration under cruise control, he
> isn't worried about
> > it because his brakes work and he has a "radar
> system that regulates
> > distance from other cars by slowing it down".
> > -mt
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org
> [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On
> > Behalf Of gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 6:46 AM
> > To: Myles Twete
> > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> >
> > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> >
> > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "report suggests is that sometimes the
> braking system in the Prius can
> > > stop
> > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > >
> > >
> http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > >
> > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for
> this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -mt
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Oeva-list mailing list
> > > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:08:45 EST
> > From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID: <17317.5bac3a80.389cad7d at aol.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> > I have had the following problem with many antilock
> brakes.
> >
> > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or even a
> wet slick painted
> > area. When the one wheel hits before another or one by
> itself with the brakes
> > on. The few hundreds of a second the wheel would have
> locked up triggers the
> > antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops much
> slower because the problem
> > the system senses is only for a couple of feet. The
> system delays the
> > vehicle stopping by rapidly pulsing on all the wheels
> and this vastly extends
> > your stopping distance. Just about 100% of the time it
> is reacting to an event
> > that would not have been a control problem and I hate
> it. This always seems
> > to happen at slow speeds and it always seems to do it
> at a critical time.
> > Like 20 or 30 feet before your going to hit something.
>
> >
> > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a stop I
> have expectations
> > that I will come to a stop in a predictable way.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> > oeva-list-request at oeva.org writes:
> >
> > 1. Re: Prius brake problems? (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius problems:
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> >
> > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "report suggests is that sometimes the
> braking system in the Prius can
> > > stop
> > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > >
> > >
> http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > >
> > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall for
> this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -mt
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> /pipermail/attachments/20100204/5933b490/attachment-0001.html
>
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 16:23:56 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Janet Redhawk <cyberdyke_1 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID:
> <215942.45238.qm at web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars rates
> a congressional inquiry?
> >
> > Where was congress when the Pinto was killing
> thousands of people?
> > Where was congress when Firestone tires were killing
> thousands of people?
> >
> > I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has
> become the #1 sales car in America and now they are showing
> how unhappy they are about it.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com
> <Theoldcars at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have had the following?problem with
> > > many?antilock brakes.
> > > ?
> > > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or
> > > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one wheel
> hits
> > > before another or one by itself with the brakes
> on. The few
> > > hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked
> up triggers
> > > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops
> much
> > > slower because the problem the system senses is
> only for a
> > > couple of feet. The system delays the vehicle
> stopping by
> > > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this
> vastly
> > > extends your stopping distance. Just about 100%
> of the time
> > > it is reacting to an event that?would not have
> been a
> > > control problem and I hate it. This always seems
> to happen
> > > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it at
> > > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before your
> > > going to hit something.
> > > ?
> > > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a
> stop I
> > > have expectations that I will come to a stop in
> a
> > > predictable way.
> > > ?
> > > Don
> > > ?
> > > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> > > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> writes:
> > > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > > ? ?
> > >
> <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
> > > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius
> problems:
> > >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> > >
> > > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "report suggests is that sometimes the
> braking
> > > system in the Prius can
> > > > stop
> > > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > > >
> > > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall
> for this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -mt
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Oeva-list mailing list
> > > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 16:57:57 -0800
> > From: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: <oeva-list at oeva.org>
> > Message-ID:
> <001c01caa5fe$424f4d10$c6ede730$@net>
> > Content-Type:
> text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > It's not the severity of the issues or that
> there's these recalls, it's that
> > evidently Toyota has preferred obfuscation, runarounds
> and false blames for
> > months rather than come out and announce a problem.
> People have died and
> > politicos gets pressured when people die and
> there's evidence that more
> > could have been done earlier. As for conspiracy of
> picking on Toyota,
> > maybe, but then I don't hear them going after VW
> or Subaru---both also very
> > popular here in Portlandistan.
> > -mt
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org
> [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On
> > Behalf Of Janet Redhawk
> > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:24 PM
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> >
> > Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars rates
> a congressional
> > inquiry?
> >
> > Where was congress when the Pinto was killing
> thousands of people?
> > Where was congress when Firestone tires were killing
> thousands of people?
> >
> > I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has
> become the #1 sales car in
> > America and now they are showing how unhappy they are
> about it.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com
> <Theoldcars at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have had the following?problem with
> > > many?antilock brakes.
> > > ?
> > > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover or
> > > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one wheel
> hits
> > > before another or one by itself with the brakes
> on. The few
> > > hundreds of a second the wheel would have locked
> up triggers
> > > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle stops
> much
> > > slower because the problem the system senses is
> only for a
> > > couple of feet. The system delays the vehicle
> stopping by
> > > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this
> vastly
> > > extends your stopping distance. Just about 100%
> of the time
> > > it is reacting to an event that?would not have
> been a
> > > control problem and I hate it. This always seems
> to happen
> > > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it at
> > > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before your
> > > going to hit something.
> > > ?
> > > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to a
> stop I
> > > have expectations that I will come to a stop in
> a
> > > predictable way.
> > > ?
> > > Don
> > > ?
> > > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM Pacific
> > > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> writes:
> > > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Message-ID:
> > > ? ?
> > >
> <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > >
> > > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius
> problems:
> > >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> > >
> > > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "report suggests is that sometimes the
> braking
> > > system in the Prius can
> > > > stop
> > > > working on bumpy and slippery roads."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > > >
> > > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius recall
> for this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -mt
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Oeva-list mailing list
> > > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Oeva-list mailing list
> > Oeva-list at oeva.org
> > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/oeva-list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:23:26 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Janet Redhawk <cyberdyke_1 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > Message-ID:
> <46579.83483.qm at web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > That's not 100% true. Yes several people have
> died. Toyota HAS not used obfuscation or anything else to
> "cover up" the problem. When the first people
> were killed Toyota came right out and said they were
> recalling all Prius' for their floor matts, and that
> they were looking further into the situation to see if their
> might be a deeper cause.
> >
> > If you want to talk obfuscation let's talk about
> Ford and the Pinto. Thousands of people were killed and
> Ford took the line that it wasn't their problem.
> Finally after YEARS of people getting killed they FINALLY
> relented and recalled the car. The problem: a $.50 part
> that isolated the tail pipe or muffler for going into the
> gas tank. Ford thought it was cheaper to pay all the
> lawsuits than to recall the cars and put on the part. This
> is all facts, look 'em up.
> >
> > Now I don't want to get into a war on this site.
> I just think it ludicrous for the gov't to be involved
> in this car problem when we've had much bigger car/auto
> industry problems. And before people climb onto the band
> wagon for the lynching maybe they should check the facts.
> >
> > Stepping off my soap box.
> >
> > J
> >
> > --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Myles Twete
> <matwete at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Myles Twete <matwete at comcast.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 4:57 PM
> > > It's not the severity of the issues
> > > or that there's these recalls, it's that
> > > evidently Toyota has preferred obfuscation,
> runarounds and
> > > false blames for
> > > months rather than come out and announce a
> problem.?
> > > People have died and
> > > politicos gets pressured when people die and
> there's
> > > evidence that more
> > > could have been done earlier.? As for conspiracy
> of
> > > picking on Toyota,
> > > maybe, but then I don't hear them going after
> VW or
> > > Subaru---both also very
> > > popular here in Portlandistan.
> > > -mt
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org
> > > [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org]
> > > On
> > > Behalf Of Janet Redhawk
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 4:24 PM
> > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > >
> > > Can I just ask why this problem with Toyota cars
> rates a
> > > congressional
> > > inquiry?
> > >
> > > Where was congress when the Pinto was killing
> thousands of
> > > people?
> > > Where was congress when Firestone tires were
> killing
> > > thousands of people?
> > >
> > > I think the big 3 are ticked off that Toyota has
> become the
> > > #1 sales car in
> > > America and now they are showing how unhappy they
> are about
> > > it.
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Theoldcars at aol.com
> > > <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Theoldcars at aol.com
> > > <Theoldcars at aol.com>
> > > > Subject: [Oeva-list] Prius brake problems?
> > > > To: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > > Date: Thursday, February 4, 2010, 3:08 PM
> > > >
> > > >?
> > > >?
> > > >?
> > > >
> > > > I have had the following?problem with
> > > > many?antilock brakes.
> > > > ?
> > > > Every time you go over a wet manhole cover
> or
> > > > even?a wet slick painted area. When the one
> wheel
> > > hits
> > > > before another or one by itself with the
> brakes on.
> > > The few
> > > > hundreds of a second the wheel would have
> locked up
> > > triggers
> > > > the antilock brakes to kick in. The vehicle
> stops
> > > much
> > > > slower because the problem the system senses
> is only
> > > for a
> > > > couple of feet. The system delays the
> vehicle stopping
> > > by
> > > > rapidly?pulsing on all the wheels and this
> vastly
> > > > extends your stopping distance. Just about
> 100% of the
> > > time
> > > > it is reacting to an event that?would not
> have been
> > > a
> > > > control problem and I hate it. This always
> seems to
> > > happen
> > > > at slow speeds and it?always seems to do it
> at
> > > > a?critical time. Like 20 or 30?feet before
> your
> > > > going to hit something.
> > > > ?
> > > > I am not a tailgater but when I am coming to
> a stop I
> > > > have expectations that I will come to a stop
> in a
> > > > predictable way.
> > > > ?
> > > > Don
> > > > ?
> > > > In a message dated 2/4/2010 12:00:17 PM
> Pacific
> > > > Standard Time, oeva-list-request at oeva.org
> > > writes:
> > > > 1. Re: Prius brake problems?
> > > > (gfifield at onlinenw.com)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 06:46:03 -0800 (PST)
> > > > From: gfifield at onlinenw.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Prius brake
> problems?
> > > > To: "Myles Twete"
> <matwete at comcast.net>
> > > > Cc: oeva-list at oeva.org
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > ? ?
> > > >
> <58f09b40c3e99f83b91ba13b3b0a851a.squirrel at mail.onlinenw.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> > > >
> > > > Apple's co-founder Wozniak's Prius
> problems:
> > > >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100203/bs_afp/usjapanautotoyotarecallapple
> > > >
> > > > http://bit.ly/9z3VJr
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "report suggests is that sometimes
> the braking
> > > > system in the Prius can
> > > > > stop
> > > > > working on bumpy and slippery
> roads."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> http://www.mibz.com/5265-new-trouble-for-toyota-prius-brake-problems.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Toyota's now looking at a Prius
> recall for this.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -mt
> > > >?
> > > >
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > > ? ? ?
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > End of Oeva-list Digest, Vol 76, Issue 5
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