[Oeva-list] Are you a fan or a fanatic?

Theoldcars at aol.com Theoldcars at aol.com
Sun Apr 24 13:21:58 PDT 2011


Hello Steve
 
I have spent a considerable amount of time reviewing your reply.  
 
For the vast majority of drivers 100 miles of EV range is a game changer.  
So the Leaf makes what was wishful thinking now a reality. No fanatic or 
even  fan required the Leaf will more then meet most drivers daily needs. This 
was not  determined by myself but from data collected from ICE drivers. 
 
Some of your beliefs may be a bit skewed as Alan pointed out  your 
misconception of the current charging time. It takes about 25  minutes to charge for 
80 miles of additional range. This would be on top of the  100 or 80 miles 
of range you start with. While this might not be ideal for  everyone it does 
make longer trips possible. 
 
Just as you seem to try and point out about electric. The true cost of oil  
if far greater then at the pump. I would rather see us subsidize electric 
then  subsidize imported oil. Right now we are spending a lot of money to 
keep our  military in many parts of the world to maintain the flow of oil. If 
oil was not  a critical resource for the United States we would not be 
spending untold  billions of dollars to do this. The sad part is this money being 
spent produces  nothing but a temporary supply line. On the other hand if we 
took an equal  amount of funds and invested it here in the United States we 
will have spent our  money far more wisely. 
 
There is a growing market for oil world wide. The US is no longer in  
position as you would like to believe. The United States is not able  to maintain 
inexpensive oil flowing. China and India as well as many  other countries 
are increasing demand. There is no going back oil demand is only  going to 
increase. There was a time that the United States was the largest  supplier of 
oil in the world. Just as those days with inexpensive oil are  forever long 
gone so is our ability to control oil prices. 
 
I would not be surprised if there is more oil that can be tapped. The  
problem is there will never be an unlimited supply so it will continue to  be a 
costly resource. The least expensive oil has already been  found so new oil 
is only going to cost more. I cringed when BP TV  ads said they were going 
to cover the 20 billion dollar clean up of the  Gulf. Yes they will pay for 
it but that just means higher oil prices. Businesses  pass cost on so what I 
heard BP saying is your going to be paying for the  clean up but BP will 
take the credit. 
 
I don't really see your point in the following sentence?
 
"In addition, many of the generation facilities and transmission  facilities
have been paid for either by the government or by rate  payers."
 
Yes we have a good start for the infrastructure of electric as a fuel. Just 
 another reason to make full use of that investment. There is nothing paid 
for by  the government it is all taken from the tax payer. Just like tobacco 
in  Oregon is charged taxes that is then used to fund roads. I am not sure  
about the logic of taxing tobacco for roads but it does not have any  
bearing what type of fuel should be on the roads. 

More oil is not the answer and more oil would only delay the inevitable. We 
 should conserve what we have as there are many uses that would cost far 
more or  there really is not a good alternative. That is why it is such a 
waste to use a  limited resource for local driving. 
 
The other reason additional oil is not the answer is at some point we  are 
going to be forced to find an alternative. It would be a very unwise  
decision to delay lowering our independence of oil. By procrastinating  this will 
only serve to increase the cost of oil and drain our country of even  more 
money. You idea to control prices with more oil has merit if we could  
produce an excess of oil at a lower cost. This would not be a permanent fix more  
like putting a band aid on when you need major surgery. If we actually start 
 replacing our dependence on oil that would help reduce oil prices. Unlike 
trying  to find more oil finding an alternative energy would be a long term 
answer. 
 
There must be a lot of people in Oregon who agree that we can have  cleaner 
electric. PGE’s renewable power program is the most successful  program of 
its kind in the country. My businesses buy 100 percent  wind. So not only is 
our business powered by wind so are the EVs. 
 
_http://www.westhillscollision.com/upperv.php?article=cleanwind_ 
(http://www.westhillscollision.com/upperv.php?article=cleanwind)   
 
In our case your claim of a dirty grid is less valid. We are willingly  
paying more and everyone will benefit. Not only will it help make electric a  
cleaner fuel it will keep more of our money here and provide long term  local 
jobs. I would like to see more done but this is a  good start. 
 
You make a point that electric is a dirty fuel. You have a choice you can  
pay less and make it so or you can pay more and clean the grid up  faster if 
this is a concern to you. This again is where I agree with Lan. If  were 
going to be using coal then it would be much easier to make it cleaner in  one 
location then in millions of vehicles. 
 
Really there are other options for clean electric. As an example go a  
little over half way down the page at this link 
_http://www.maxlore.com/technology.html_ (http://www.maxlore.com/technology.html)    What we need is a 
president to back a commitment like president Kennedy did in  1961 to put a man 
on the moon before an end of a decade. 
 
Here is short part of that Kennedy speech with only a couple  of words 
changed.
 
We choose to be energy self sufficient. We choose to be energy self  
sufficient this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but  
because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure 
the  best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we 
are  willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we 
intend to  win, and the others, too. It is for these reasons that I regard the 
decision  last year to shift our efforts to be energy self sufficient from 
low  to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made 
during my  incumbency in the Office of the Presidency.  
 
Its amazing how few words need to be changed to the above speech. Mostly  
"to the moon" changed to energy self sufficient. 
 
So until we have this type of commitment by our nation. It is going to be  
up to each and everyone of us. I have seen people throw garbage out of their 
car  window. I have also seen people pick up garbage while walking. Never 
have talked  to someone as to why they would throw their garbage out the car 
window. I  am sure if questioned they would come up with some valid response 
for doing  so. My point is it might be a little more work to do the right 
thing but excuses  don't make a wrong act right. 
 
The United States is going broke and oil is a big part of the  problem. 
Were all either part of the problem or part of the solution. I  really feel EVs 
can be a huge part of the solution. EVs also have a very long  list of 
other positives. However you don't need to be a fan or fanatic to drive  an EV 
anymore. Nissan with the Leaf has now made it possible  to go about your 
daily driving more convenient and in  the long run less costly. No more going 
out of your way to find and  wait at a gas station. No more engine oil 
changes, transmission or axle oil  changes. No more air filters, belts or major 
engine services. Even your brakes  will last longer because your motor turns 
into a generator which helps stop the  vehicle. Also since it is very doubtful 
gas will go down in the future you  having an alternative fuel vehicle that 
is free from future oil price hikes. New  vehicles are usually always a 
poor investment. However with an EV with such a  long warranty back by a major 
manufacturer is about as good as it gets. But wait  there's more with the 
7500 dollar federal tax credit taken off the top its  almost a steal while 
these funds last. 
 
Although the electric supply has a lot to do with EVs. I am afraid  much of 
this post is getting away from what the OEVA is here for. I also don't  
want to bore anyone with my point of views. Sometimes that is easier said  then 
done for a fanatic. 
 
Don
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/23/2011 3:43:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
oeva-list-request at oeva.org writes:

Message:  1
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steve's Account"  <stevel at fern.com>
Subject: [Oeva-list] Are you a fan or a  fanatic?
To: oeva-list at oeva.org
Message-ID:  <alpine.LNX.2.00.1104231115560.5861 at hub.fern.com>
Content-Type:  TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Don,

On many of your  points we are at least in partial agreement.

> Hello  Steve
>
> I agree on many points in your post until you   say
>
> "but for now, it's a "fanatics" car."

You will  notice that I said "for now"..

There are only a few things that would  be needed to change the picture
significantly, in my  thinking.

Increased range. Better ability predict whether the range  remaining
will do the job asked of it, and faster/more convienent recharge  
capability.

I also was not using "fanatic" in a derogatory way. What I  was trying to
illustrate is that you have to make signicant compromises to  use the
existing technology.
>
> You are entitled to your point  of view but you might consider the
>  following.

[snip]
>
> Lan brought up a good point that  electric is a far less expensive fuel. 
It
> is also an energy supply we  can one way or another manufacture here.  The
> more money a family  has to pay for transportation the less funds  it has 
for
> other  needs. Demand causes prices to increase so if  everyone uses oil  
we
> all have to pay more. There is no free lunch so that  quick  fill up with 
300
> miles of range is costing a far more then the  price  at the pump.

Electricity is cheap compared to gas per  mile.. Some of that is due
to the fact that you don't pay the true cost per  KWh. Were there a
carbon tax, and road tax, it would be a bit less  economical.

In addition, many of the generation facilities and  transmission facilities
have been paid for either by the government or by  rate payers.
>
> My father who was an adult during the  great  depression felt if you 
cannot
> afford to pay for something  in  full you should not be buying it. As a
> nation we cannot afford our  oil  imports. Our current solution of 
> printing money that is  worth less and less is  not sustainable. If we 
> continue to pay  for imported oil like this  it is only a matter of time 
> until  our economy collapses. It's not that gold  is going up in value 
>  the dollar is falling and falling hard. In the last 5  years the value  
> of gold has increased 300 percent.
[snip]

I agree with many  of these points.

I do beleive that we have sufficient oil in the US to  control the world
price by modulating demand for foreign oil. But in order  to do this, we
have to drill.. here... With all the risks that that  entails.

I find it interesting that everyone protests drilling,  anyplace in the
US.. but not a word is spoken when another well is drilled  in other parts
of the world. If we want the energy, we must, in my opinion,  be willing to
shoulder the risk involved in getting it. And in doing so, we  create enough
domestic production to control the cost of a barrel of  oil.

The OPEC nations are as addicted to the flow of money from the US  as we
are to consuming oil. And, as the oil producers well know, you can't  drink
oil.. It's of no use to them, unless they sell it to a  consumer.

We have recently seen the news reports about coal mines  collapsing, 
trapping
or killing miners. We have seen "wastelands" created  when coal tailings
lagoons fail. We watch as fly ash ponds flood areas with  highly 
contaminated,
radioactive, fly ash.

All of these are part of  the cost of electric power.
>
> Everyone knows the term freedom is  not free. Freedom has a price  and in
> this case it might be our  general population misconceptions and  fears
> enslaving our nation  to a single fuel supply. If the majority of  people 
> believe an  EV is an inconvenient fanatic's vehicle our freedom  is 
linked 
>  to a gas station. A fuel we should not be buying because we are  not  
> self sufficient and we cannot afford it.

I think there are  other, untapped resources, for transportation. Compressed
natural gas is  one of them. We have significant reserves of gas available.

Hybrids  currently address the limitation of existing plug in EV's, while
cutting  significantly the fuel required. A significant cut in US demand
for oil  will lower the price charged for oil and will lengthen the time
during  which "relatively cheap" oil can still be found.

I also believe that  the Leaf (and others) are first generation EV's and
that subsequent  development will make them more attractive.

In one of the recent posts,  someone suggested that there be a network
of charging stations at 40 mile  intervals, along major roads.. and while
this will definately improve the  liklyhood of success in any given 
transportation attempt, spending 2 hours  every 40 miles, is a labor of
love, not a transportation  alternative.

Hence my choice of the word "fanatic".. Possibly, the  shorter version "fan"
might have conveyed a "softer" version of the same  thing.

The average "non fanatic" isn't going to park their car at one  of the few
available charing stations and hike 20 blocks to their  workplace, on a 
daily basis.

There are many people who use  transportation modes, because they are a fan 
of
that mode.. Sailboats,  sailplanes, bicycles, horses, and yes, even walking
are all  examples.

When was the last time you saw a sailing ship delivering  freight to the
port of Portland?

For those people with a 40 mile  total driving requiremnt in a given day, a
Leaf with a home charger is  probably a perfect solution. I'd like to see 
as many people with that  transportation profile, switch to them.

For many of us. it's just not  enough.. Yet.. but I think they will get 
there
in the not to distant  future. I encourage them to keep working on it.

For me, one of the EV  Transits would be a better solution.. provided I can
get a 100 mile range,  and a resonable purchase price.

And yes... I applaud the "fanatics" who  successfully complete long distance
trips by Leaf.. Their stamina is to be  appriciated. Along with feats such
as circling the globe in a balloon. All  the domain of the  fanatic.

Steve

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