[Oeva-list] tax issues fair would be paying EV drivers

Theoldcars at aol.com Theoldcars at aol.com
Thu Jun 21 10:59:10 PDT 2012


Hello Mike
 
I am sure were all getting a lot of the same feed back from ICE  drivers. 
Yes most people are very resistant to the concept you can fuel up at  home. 
Electric being a clean fuel is another they don't want to  believe. Usually 
they bring up the coal power plants to defend oil  usage. I counter with that 
our business buys 100% of our  electric from wind. This was offered to 
businesses a few years ago,  which I don't believe was offered to residential 
users. . 
 
As we all know electric can be about as clean as you want to make it.  Many 
on this list are using solar which has also has some very good tax  
incentives. How well would solar go over when the news is out  that solar will now 
pay a special grid tax? Because solar homes  are not helping to pay for the 
grid? After all the their using the grid but  some are now not paying into 
it anymore. In many respects this is no different  then the roads.
 
When the news came out last year about a tax per mile. All I heard  about 
from ICE drivers was now my EV is going to cost a lot to drive. Forget  about 
all the other benefits the only thing everyone was focused on was now  
there is going to be a special tax for EVs. Since most people don't really care  
to know more, that is about all they remember. So now not only are EVs not 
a  real vehicle, they have to pay added taxes. Just another reason for many 
people  to use as an excuse not to consider an EV. ICE drivers don't want a 
mile tax,  and if you add it to EVs,  it is just another reason not to buy 
an over  priced vehicle. 
 
So I would have to disagree on the idea of taxing EV for roads at this  
time as being either good or fair. As the change to do this would cost  more 
then the revenue gained. It really makes little sense to start a  tax when it 
going to cost more then it makes. It will also be like  this for a very long 
time unless things change drastically in the favor of  EVs. 
 
I would not want to see a grid tax on solar or a mile tax on EVs. Solar and 
 EVs help us and it is a mistake do anything that would not encourage 
either. EVs  or solar could increase with more incentives. Since both are just 
getting  started they are no where near reaching their potential. 
 
Although I believe EVs would just about fix a vast majority of our  
problems. I have to admit their not going to be any relief for ODT's on going  
funding shortage any time soon. Really do any of us have all the money we would  
like to have for all our projects? In a perfect world there would be so 
many EVs  that a mile tax would actually product a net gain. 
 
Keeping in mind this EV tax per mile is costing more then it takes in.  
What are the valid reasons for doing so? Not only does not  provide revenue it 
will actually take away funds that could go towards  roads. Usually when 
something seems to good to be true its not good. In this  case its not even 
good at the start.
 
Years ago I was talking to supervisor in the city of Portland. I asked why  
they did not enforce something at the time and his response was this. 
Although  he wanted too his problem was it would then need a budget which he did 
not  have. What ever is done here would cost more one way or another to 
enforce which  was his point. 
 
At a time when we need less government (overhead) this is going the wrong  
direction. If this was not true there would be revenue gained which is  not 
the case. ODT tried to get this mile tax on ICE vehicles and the  general 
population does not want it. Since ODT feels they need  more funding, and a 
miles tax is the answer, EVs now are  the low hanging fruit for a mileage tax. 
 
 
 
Don Blazer
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/17/2012 11:04:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
mikeov1 at gmail.com writes:

Don,
I agree with much of your logic, but I think it would be too  difficult for 
most non-EV people to accept since they are still in denial  about the need 
to get off oil.

I suppose that people drive EVs for a  variety of reasons, but many do so 
to help the country stop buying oil and to  help the global environment.  I 
think most EV owners accept that this is  not really the cheapest way to get 
around or the most convenient.  But  they altruistically choose to make a 
positive difference in the  world.

Perhaps we should take the same approach on road taxes.  I  think most of 
us agree that unless mass transit gets a lot better,  we  need roads on which 
to drive, and that it takes money to build and maintain  those roads.  So 
why not embrace the vehicle mile tax as a way to help  our state? 

We can be the leaders in the program.  If we embrace  this instead of 
fighting it then we are far more likely to have a seat at the  table.  We can 
work to define and implement the next steps such as  getting get high-mileage 
ICE vehicles added so that it is fair and that all  vehicles pay a reasonable 
fee to use the roads.

I think the rate should  be tied to inflation so that we do not have argue 
every year about the  rate.  It should go up every year so that the state 
has a cost adjusted  constant amount of revenue to work with.  That is one of 
the worst  problems with the gas tax - it is not tied to either the price of 
gas or the  general inflation so effectively it goes down every year.

I agree with  Larry W and others that the road planning process has 
significant waste and  has made some poor decisions.  To some extent that happens 
in any  organization private or public.  And while it is easy to see in 
hindsite  it can be harder in real-time.  One way to cut waste is to have  
predictable funding so that people can make plans once and then  implement.  If 
the funding changes every year then we have to re-plan  multiple times before 
the work occurs and that can eat up a significant part  of the resources.

That is my two hundred watt hours on the situation.  

Mike

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 3:29 PM, <_Theoldcars at aol.com_ 
(mailto:Theoldcars at aol.com) > wrote:


Pat 
 
While I am in agreement with you gas taxes should be raised.  However the 
majority of the voting public here does not see it that  way. A gas tax in 
Oregon has been voted down several  times in past attempts. Between gas prices 
and this economy I  doubt a tax increase would have any chance. 
 
ODT has been for a very long time been looking at ways  to increase 
revenue. So this really has less to do with the  revenue generated by EVs. What it 
would do is help ODT get everyone use to a  different way to collect road 
taxes. The use of an alternative  fuel not paying for roads is a good argument 
that works on  the idea of fairness. After all even if the numbers don't 
work its  the thought that counts. Most people are fair and if focus is  roads 
then keeping things fair gives a reason for the change. 
 
While the funding of roads or the repair and even more  so the replacement 
of bad bridges is valid concern. As a nation  were currently on the fast 
road to being bankrupt. We should encourage EVs  use as a way to reduce 
shipping dollars out of the country. The mass  majority of drivers continue to buy 
gas and it is a fuel  our nation cannot afford. The impact on our economy at 
some point will be  even greater then the economic crisis of 2008. You 
simply just can't keep  printing money and not expect a catastrophic economic 
failure. Its not  a matter of if it will happen only a question of when.  What 
good are  nice roads when fewer and fewer people will be able to afford  
driving on them? Right now miles driven are down due to the cost of fuel and  
the economy. What is pending in our future is far worse then the  condition 
of roads.
 
We should be doing everything possible to encourage the use of EVs at  the 
fastest rate possible. Consider one of the main  reasons ICE drivers say EVs 
are not practical "EVs cost too  much." That you can buy a ICE for 12,000 
but an EV costs two or three  times that amount. What is being overlooked 
here is that new ICE is now  costing all of us for the next ten or twenty years 
is that  fair? Buying a 12,000 dollar ICE encourages continuing  dependence 
of imported energy. Every ICE driver should be endorsing any  method that 
leads to less drivers competing for the same fuel.  Less demand will help 
steady prices and give us more time to  move away from ICE vehicles. 
 
The future of our country will depend on how many of us are  willing to buy 
EVs. An EV is not just an investment  paying off for the EV owner with an 
efficient motor and  inexpensive fuel costs. It is a vehicle that helps every 
person in this  nation regardless if you own or don't own a vehicle. The 
drivers of ICE  vehicles are driving the value of our dollar down. Since this 
is like  99.999 percent of the driving population majority rules. It is  not 
oil or gold going up it is the value of the dollar going  down.   
 
It is not unusual to tax what we would like to discourage for the  benefit 
of society. Then to apply these tax funds to help reduce  the number of the 
population from continuing undesirable actions that  affect all. It is also 
not unusual to pay bounty when a  problem becomes out of control or 
overwhelming. Sure appears  to me were at that point now with ICE vehicles. 
 
There are many on this list who say it is only fair we all pay our  share. 
Usually if your talking about a fair situation I would agree. The  majority 
of people I believe want to do the right thing and on of  them is not be 
freeloading off others. In effect now what we  have a general population that 
feels it is entitled to use  oil for transportation. That it has always been 
this way and should  continue to be this way regardless of the outcome. Well 
its not  fair that people continue to buy an imported energy that devalues 
our  dollar. Short of putting a warning on the pump and receipt. Most people 
 just don't seem to realize they are funding the problem.  
 
Most people only think day to day about what they need to do  and where 
they need to go. The actual cost to them is not understood  nor do they realize 
the continued dependence on oil is like a  chronic disease. The damage is 
occurring over a long period of  time. Since most everyone has the same 
illness of driving  an ICE. The disease is not viewed as a threat but as  a very 
necessary requirement to live life as you know it. Other wise  they would 
not be able to use ICE vehicle. Which to  most owners is their first or second 
largest investment.  

There are numerous excellent reasons to use electric  energy to power 
vehicles. Many can be down played, dismissed or just  plain disagreed on. Right 
or wrong people will take a point of view based on  false information or 
mistaken beliefs. There are many examples of  this in the past and I will not 
bore you with details on hindsight. I  believe the best valid argument to 
subsidize EVs is the  pending financial crisis looming in our  future. 
Continuing to buy oil from other countries is  obviously is not sustainable. Just as 
bad is the security risk to us and the  rest of the world. 
 
The one fact that no one can disagree with is, you can not  continue to 
spend more then you make. Everyone knows what the outcome will  be if a person 
or business does so. When it comes to the government  many just dismiss it 
as if the same rules don't apply. If you  spend more then you take in your 
going to be broke. If our  country prints up more money then it takes in then 
the value of  the dollar will fall just as it has. The 
bad part about this is you can be a very frugal person and yet your  going 
to be badly impacted along with everyone else. 
 
IMHO this is where were headed with oil. Is it fair that our nation  
continues down this path without encouraging the  general population by steering 
it in a different direction? By  government I mean every level of government 
including state, county and city  to do what is best for everyone. What is 
obviously best for all of  us is if everyone really understood. The more we 
delay the worse  its going to be. One of our greatest problems we face today 
is caused  by ICE vehicles. Every public agency should be directed to find 
ways to  encourage EV use and this should include ODT. 
 
Tax free EVs are more then fair and at this time would be the  correct path 
to take. The way our economy is today and based on where  were headed. It 
is in everyone's best interest to remove or convert as  many ICE vehicles off 
the road as quickly as possible. 
 
I believe EVs should get a free ride until their numbers reach the  point 
where we no longer need to import oil. Until this happens were  printing up 
money which is a nation not acting responsible for its actions.  Now if we 
can get to this level with solar, wind, geothermal then fine.  Until that 
happens I feel there is no excuse to do anything that  would not encourage more 
EVs or shift more costs away from ICE  drivers.
 
At this time I say forget about having EVs pay for the roads. EV  numbers 
are insignificant and will be for a very considerable amount of  time. What 
would be better is to pay EV drivers by the  mile. EVs should receive a tax 
break for every mile driven both state  and federal. Now that would not only 
be fair it would be smart. Even if you  never want to own an EV it rewards 
others for keeping the cost of your fuel  down and saving our nations 
economy. So your children and the  children they have don't have to figure out how 
to get out of the mess  we passed on to them.  
 
After all many of us know how inconvenient owning an EV is.  They only have 
a limited amount of range and it can take hours to  recharge. For the 
privilege of ICE drivers avoiding all the hassles of  owning an EV. It seems 
reasonable the ICE driver incur a tax  for the luxury of driving an ICE at 
everyone's expense. An  easy option for many ICE drivers would be to replace  
their second or third vehicle they own to be an EV. 
 
Sorry about the long winded post. I will try and contain myself. 
 
Don Blazer
 
 
 
In a message dated 6/12/2012 12:00:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
_oeva-list-request at oeva.org_ (mailto:oeva-list-request at oeva.org)  writes:

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:59:06 -0700
From: _patrick0101 at gmail.com_ (mailto:patrick0101 at gmail.com) 
Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] tax  issues.
To: OEVA <_oeva-list at oeva.org_ (mailto:oeva-list at oeva.org) >
Message-ID:
<CAJTfAAW=gvH3HG0LtHuC=_EDxDYYZYUH3N51CR2zryDS684+mXg at mail.gmail.com_ 
(mailto:EDxDYYZYUH3N51CR2zryDS684+mXg at mail.gmail.com) >
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I like the idea of an odometer  based tax (rather than GPS). I also like the
idea of a taxes on tires  (including (or especially) studded). Tire wear
would have a high  correlation to road wear. I also think the Oregon gas tax
should be  raised. Oregon's gas tax is lower than Washington's  and
California's.

Regards,
Pat
Sunlight will never cost  $4/gallon







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