[Oeva-list] tax issues fair would be paying EV drivers
Theoldcars at aol.com
Theoldcars at aol.com
Thu Jun 21 10:59:10 PDT 2012
I am sure were all getting a lot of the same feed back from ICE drivers.
Yes most people are very resistant to the concept you can fuel up at home.
Electric being a clean fuel is another they don't want to believe. Usually
they bring up the coal power plants to defend oil usage. I counter with that
our business buys 100% of our electric from wind. This was offered to
businesses a few years ago, which I don't believe was offered to residential
As we all know electric can be about as clean as you want to make it. Many
on this list are using solar which has also has some very good tax
incentives. How well would solar go over when the news is out that solar will now
pay a special grid tax? Because solar homes are not helping to pay for the
grid? After all the their using the grid but some are now not paying into
it anymore. In many respects this is no different then the roads.
When the news came out last year about a tax per mile. All I heard about
from ICE drivers was now my EV is going to cost a lot to drive. Forget about
all the other benefits the only thing everyone was focused on was now
there is going to be a special tax for EVs. Since most people don't really care
to know more, that is about all they remember. So now not only are EVs not
a real vehicle, they have to pay added taxes. Just another reason for many
people to use as an excuse not to consider an EV. ICE drivers don't want a
mile tax, and if you add it to EVs, it is just another reason not to buy
an over priced vehicle.
So I would have to disagree on the idea of taxing EV for roads at this
time as being either good or fair. As the change to do this would cost more
then the revenue gained. It really makes little sense to start a tax when it
going to cost more then it makes. It will also be like this for a very long
time unless things change drastically in the favor of EVs.
I would not want to see a grid tax on solar or a mile tax on EVs. Solar and
EVs help us and it is a mistake do anything that would not encourage
either. EVs or solar could increase with more incentives. Since both are just
getting started they are no where near reaching their potential.
Although I believe EVs would just about fix a vast majority of our
problems. I have to admit their not going to be any relief for ODT's on going
funding shortage any time soon. Really do any of us have all the money we would
like to have for all our projects? In a perfect world there would be so
many EVs that a mile tax would actually product a net gain.
Keeping in mind this EV tax per mile is costing more then it takes in.
What are the valid reasons for doing so? Not only does not provide revenue it
will actually take away funds that could go towards roads. Usually when
something seems to good to be true its not good. In this case its not even
good at the start.
Years ago I was talking to supervisor in the city of Portland. I asked why
they did not enforce something at the time and his response was this.
Although he wanted too his problem was it would then need a budget which he did
not have. What ever is done here would cost more one way or another to
enforce which was his point.
At a time when we need less government (overhead) this is going the wrong
direction. If this was not true there would be revenue gained which is not
the case. ODT tried to get this mile tax on ICE vehicles and the general
population does not want it. Since ODT feels they need more funding, and a
miles tax is the answer, EVs now are the low hanging fruit for a mileage tax.
In a message dated 6/17/2012 11:04:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
mikeov1 at gmail.com writes:
I agree with much of your logic, but I think it would be too difficult for
most non-EV people to accept since they are still in denial about the need
to get off oil.
I suppose that people drive EVs for a variety of reasons, but many do so
to help the country stop buying oil and to help the global environment. I
think most EV owners accept that this is not really the cheapest way to get
around or the most convenient. But they altruistically choose to make a
positive difference in the world.
Perhaps we should take the same approach on road taxes. I think most of
us agree that unless mass transit gets a lot better, we need roads on which
to drive, and that it takes money to build and maintain those roads. So
why not embrace the vehicle mile tax as a way to help our state?
We can be the leaders in the program. If we embrace this instead of
fighting it then we are far more likely to have a seat at the table. We can
work to define and implement the next steps such as getting get high-mileage
ICE vehicles added so that it is fair and that all vehicles pay a reasonable
fee to use the roads.
I think the rate should be tied to inflation so that we do not have argue
every year about the rate. It should go up every year so that the state
has a cost adjusted constant amount of revenue to work with. That is one of
the worst problems with the gas tax - it is not tied to either the price of
gas or the general inflation so effectively it goes down every year.
I agree with Larry W and others that the road planning process has
significant waste and has made some poor decisions. To some extent that happens
in any organization private or public. And while it is easy to see in
hindsite it can be harder in real-time. One way to cut waste is to have
predictable funding so that people can make plans once and then implement. If
the funding changes every year then we have to re-plan multiple times before
the work occurs and that can eat up a significant part of the resources.
That is my two hundred watt hours on the situation.
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 3:29 PM, <_Theoldcars at aol.com_
(mailto:Theoldcars at aol.com) > wrote:
While I am in agreement with you gas taxes should be raised. However the
majority of the voting public here does not see it that way. A gas tax in
Oregon has been voted down several times in past attempts. Between gas prices
and this economy I doubt a tax increase would have any chance.
ODT has been for a very long time been looking at ways to increase
revenue. So this really has less to do with the revenue generated by EVs. What it
would do is help ODT get everyone use to a different way to collect road
taxes. The use of an alternative fuel not paying for roads is a good argument
that works on the idea of fairness. After all even if the numbers don't
work its the thought that counts. Most people are fair and if focus is roads
then keeping things fair gives a reason for the change.
While the funding of roads or the repair and even more so the replacement
of bad bridges is valid concern. As a nation were currently on the fast
road to being bankrupt. We should encourage EVs use as a way to reduce
shipping dollars out of the country. The mass majority of drivers continue to buy
gas and it is a fuel our nation cannot afford. The impact on our economy at
some point will be even greater then the economic crisis of 2008. You
simply just can't keep printing money and not expect a catastrophic economic
failure. Its not a matter of if it will happen only a question of when. What
good are nice roads when fewer and fewer people will be able to afford
driving on them? Right now miles driven are down due to the cost of fuel and
the economy. What is pending in our future is far worse then the condition
We should be doing everything possible to encourage the use of EVs at the
fastest rate possible. Consider one of the main reasons ICE drivers say EVs
are not practical "EVs cost too much." That you can buy a ICE for 12,000
but an EV costs two or three times that amount. What is being overlooked
here is that new ICE is now costing all of us for the next ten or twenty years
is that fair? Buying a 12,000 dollar ICE encourages continuing dependence
of imported energy. Every ICE driver should be endorsing any method that
leads to less drivers competing for the same fuel. Less demand will help
steady prices and give us more time to move away from ICE vehicles.
The future of our country will depend on how many of us are willing to buy
EVs. An EV is not just an investment paying off for the EV owner with an
efficient motor and inexpensive fuel costs. It is a vehicle that helps every
person in this nation regardless if you own or don't own a vehicle. The
drivers of ICE vehicles are driving the value of our dollar down. Since this
is like 99.999 percent of the driving population majority rules. It is not
oil or gold going up it is the value of the dollar going down.
It is not unusual to tax what we would like to discourage for the benefit
of society. Then to apply these tax funds to help reduce the number of the
population from continuing undesirable actions that affect all. It is also
not unusual to pay bounty when a problem becomes out of control or
overwhelming. Sure appears to me were at that point now with ICE vehicles.
There are many on this list who say it is only fair we all pay our share.
Usually if your talking about a fair situation I would agree. The majority
of people I believe want to do the right thing and on of them is not be
freeloading off others. In effect now what we have a general population that
feels it is entitled to use oil for transportation. That it has always been
this way and should continue to be this way regardless of the outcome. Well
its not fair that people continue to buy an imported energy that devalues
our dollar. Short of putting a warning on the pump and receipt. Most people
just don't seem to realize they are funding the problem.
Most people only think day to day about what they need to do and where
they need to go. The actual cost to them is not understood nor do they realize
the continued dependence on oil is like a chronic disease. The damage is
occurring over a long period of time. Since most everyone has the same
illness of driving an ICE. The disease is not viewed as a threat but as a very
necessary requirement to live life as you know it. Other wise they would
not be able to use ICE vehicle. Which to most owners is their first or second
There are numerous excellent reasons to use electric energy to power
vehicles. Many can be down played, dismissed or just plain disagreed on. Right
or wrong people will take a point of view based on false information or
mistaken beliefs. There are many examples of this in the past and I will not
bore you with details on hindsight. I believe the best valid argument to
subsidize EVs is the pending financial crisis looming in our future.
Continuing to buy oil from other countries is obviously is not sustainable. Just as
bad is the security risk to us and the rest of the world.
The one fact that no one can disagree with is, you can not continue to
spend more then you make. Everyone knows what the outcome will be if a person
or business does so. When it comes to the government many just dismiss it
as if the same rules don't apply. If you spend more then you take in your
going to be broke. If our country prints up more money then it takes in then
the value of the dollar will fall just as it has. The
bad part about this is you can be a very frugal person and yet your going
to be badly impacted along with everyone else.
IMHO this is where were headed with oil. Is it fair that our nation
continues down this path without encouraging the general population by steering
it in a different direction? By government I mean every level of government
including state, county and city to do what is best for everyone. What is
obviously best for all of us is if everyone really understood. The more we
delay the worse its going to be. One of our greatest problems we face today
is caused by ICE vehicles. Every public agency should be directed to find
ways to encourage EV use and this should include ODT.
Tax free EVs are more then fair and at this time would be the correct path
to take. The way our economy is today and based on where were headed. It
is in everyone's best interest to remove or convert as many ICE vehicles off
the road as quickly as possible.
I believe EVs should get a free ride until their numbers reach the point
where we no longer need to import oil. Until this happens were printing up
money which is a nation not acting responsible for its actions. Now if we
can get to this level with solar, wind, geothermal then fine. Until that
happens I feel there is no excuse to do anything that would not encourage more
EVs or shift more costs away from ICE drivers.
At this time I say forget about having EVs pay for the roads. EV numbers
are insignificant and will be for a very considerable amount of time. What
would be better is to pay EV drivers by the mile. EVs should receive a tax
break for every mile driven both state and federal. Now that would not only
be fair it would be smart. Even if you never want to own an EV it rewards
others for keeping the cost of your fuel down and saving our nations
economy. So your children and the children they have don't have to figure out how
to get out of the mess we passed on to them.
After all many of us know how inconvenient owning an EV is. They only have
a limited amount of range and it can take hours to recharge. For the
privilege of ICE drivers avoiding all the hassles of owning an EV. It seems
reasonable the ICE driver incur a tax for the luxury of driving an ICE at
everyone's expense. An easy option for many ICE drivers would be to replace
their second or third vehicle they own to be an EV.
Sorry about the long winded post. I will try and contain myself.
In a message dated 6/12/2012 12:00:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
_oeva-list-request at oeva.org_ (mailto:oeva-list-request at oeva.org) writes:
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:59:06 -0700
From: _patrick0101 at gmail.com_ (mailto:patrick0101 at gmail.com)
Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] tax issues.
To: OEVA <_oeva-list at oeva.org_ (mailto:oeva-list at oeva.org) >
<CAJTfAAW=gvH3HG0LtHuC=_EDxDYYZYUH3N51CR2zryDS684+mXg at mail.gmail.com_
(mailto:EDxDYYZYUH3N51CR2zryDS684+mXg at mail.gmail.com) >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I like the idea of an odometer based tax (rather than GPS). I also like the
idea of a taxes on tires (including (or especially) studded). Tire wear
would have a high correlation to road wear. I also think the Oregon gas tax
should be raised. Oregon's gas tax is lower than Washington's and
Sunlight will never cost $4/gallon
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