[Oeva-list] Time of Use

Peter Hoeckel peter at hoeckel.com
Sun Apr 28 14:38:47 PDT 2013


·         are you sure that the $10 aren't associated with a solar system?  I remember that the solar feed-in tariff deal had a $10 monthly fee.  My ToU does not include a $10 monthly fee.

·         how do you know what you pay?  I have a very simple spreadsheet where I enter the kWh numbers from the ToU PDF sheet they're emailing me (or take it off the bill), and compare that summed cost (without any fee adjustments) against the (sum of kWh) X (non-ToU charge), also without any fee adjustments, since those don't change between the two programs - voila. 



·         I think the meter charge doesn't exist.

·         And the on-peak charge has to be punitive, since that's what we as consumers react to; the biggest benefit for PGE is not for you to use more at night, it's for you to use less at peak (not necessarily zero), since it's the peak capacity they have to build that's so expensive.  Of course, I would rather pay less during peak, too :)  Now, one could argue that the peak period should be much shorter, but I don't know PGE's load profiles.


My suspicion is that their ToU fee structure is based on a tight balance between 

1) getting enough people to move to ToU to reduce peak load, and

2) losing too much revenue in the process.




From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On Behalf Of ianaudio
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:36 PM
To: oeva-list at oeva.org
Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Time of Use


I always thought that the PGE TOU was abusive, from the first time I read about it. It makes no sense to me why there needs to be the punitive peak rate and the meter charge. There are people home at my house all day. Expecting them to not use energy at all during peak times is ridiculous, but I I wold be more than happy to move my ev charging to late night, since I have a fast charger. I thought that California had a system that was basic rate most of the time with som late night off peak discount.

Paul Wallace

On 2013-04-28 13:21, Myles Twete wrote:

Great writeup Pat, and congrats on your limited success with the TOU program.

We’ve been TOU customers now for several years now---since first that PGE offered it.

The program is only marginally fair in my opinion.


Hidden costs: When I put the numbers into the calculator before we joined, it appeared we would save some $15/month or more.  This was based on the On/Mid/Off peak rates they quoted & comparing with the Basic rate.  But the story wasn’t made clear.  The advertised rates didn’t include “T&D charges”, nor did it mention that there’d be an additional $10/month “meter fee” to participate in the plan.  Together, these made our first month results nearly a wash as compared to the Basic plan---and that was AFTER putting OFF-peak timers on BOTH our hot water heater and our hot tub!  So while I figured these timers would pay for themselves within a few months, ultimately, we saved only about $2-4 month as I figure.  Now, since most or all customers now have “smart” meters, why do we still have to pay $10/month for this fee?  Does everyone pay this now?  


TOU Calculator: The calculator may also not tell the whole story.  But how could you know?  Once you’ve switched from Basic, you no longer have a way to directly compare apples to apples since fees & other costs change.


PGE knows what the T&D (transmission and distribution) rates are.  Yet in advertising TOU’s low rates, PGE does not include the T&D amounts even though they know what they are.  This obfuscation is intentional in order to make the TOU OFF-peak power rate seem incredibly low and attractive.


The reality: Look at the bottom line cost.  Through the year, our TOU bill, when divided by actual KWH delivered ends up running between a low of 9cents/kwh to a high of 26cents/kwh.  Why so high?  Go on vacation during the month, using little electricity.  You’ll still have that $10/month plus a host of other fees that will weigh against you.


On average, we’re looking at an average of about 12-cents/kwh counting all.  And that’s with 82.5% OFF, 7.1% MID, and 10.3%ON peak average annual usage.  This also with an average of 152kwh/mo SOLAR to PGE and 537kwh/mo from PGE.


So we meet that 80% shift that PGE talks about, yet we pay on average 12-cents/kwh total cost.  Would we pay less or more with Basic?


Still with TOU, but it should be so much more fair I think…




From: oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org [mailto:oeva-list-bounces at oeva.org] On Behalf Of patrick0101 at gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:32 PM
Subject: [Oeva-list] Time of Use


I have been on time-of-use with PGE for just over a year now. Today I crunched the numbers and calculated that I saved $65 during our 12 months on TOU. 


Most months we saved just a couple bucks. The best two months we saved over $11. There was one month (Feb) where TOU cost $1.76 more than standard service would have, but this was more than made up for by the other months. 


For more gory details, you can read about here: 


Sunlight will never cost $4/gallon


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