[Oeva-list] Zehner's article.

Dima Kukushkin dimakukushkin at gmail.com
Wed Jul 31 19:39:36 PDT 2013

Steve, i only wanted to disagree with your (not sure how backed up)
statement that typical portlander needs 100mile commute without recharge to
fit real transportation scenario - let me remind that according to
published statistics about 60% of americans drive less than 40 miles a day,
and so can only charge at home while using all heat they want in a Leaf.

Me personally, if i would have to drive 100 daily because of work alone -
i'd change jobs. My leaf is true daily driver - it gets more miles than
other 2 othe ice cars.

Ps pdx has chargers.


On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Steve's Account wrote:

> > From: Aaron Burt <aaron at bavariati.org <javascript:;>>
> > Subject: Re: [Oeva-list] Mr. Zehner's article
> > To: oeva-list at oeva.org <javascript:;>
> > Message-ID: <20130731180153.GA23110 at aaron-acer>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 05:31:27PM +0000, CraigSchaefer wrote:
> >> I wonder what could have come from making the same investment in
> hydrogen
> >> or LNG infrastructure as made in electric infrastructure for fueling
> >> vehicles?
> >
> > Off-the-cuff answer?  Very little.
> > Consider the cost of NG liquefaction compressors alone, vs. L2 chargers,
> > and also the rural availability of electricity vs. NG lines.
> NG liqufaction costs you absolutely nothing.. You just get it from the
> LNG tanker in liquid form.. There's lots of LNG on the market already.
> Both Trinidad and a couple of the Gulf states have LNG trains already
> set up and running. And in both cases, it was gas they were flaring
> because there was no market for it, until they started liquifying
> it.. It's a win/win because the gas is used for some useful purpose
> instead of lighting up the desert!
> >
> > I won't even go into the logistics of H2.  We've been throwing money at
> > that since at least the EV1 days, and look where we're at.  H2/FCEV had
> the
> > potential to supplant Pb and Ni batteries, but now we got Li (and H2
> > molecules are tiny, hard to store, and flammable when they escape.)
> H2 is easy.. you do what the Icelanders are already doing, you install
> "reverse fuel cells" to electrolize water into hydrogen and oxygen.
> Use solar cells to do it. Perfect application for solar cells in
> that every electron generated dissasocates a hydrogen. It doesn't
> matter what the insolation is at a given time.. if it's not sunny,
> the process runs slowly.. And.. if it's dark, you just use utility
> power to generate more hydrogen, if you are already out.
> >
> > My scooter club list doesn't have people complaining about 2-strokes,
> > my motorcycle club list doesn't have people saying we should stop riding,
> > but my EV club list has people telling me EVs are wrong and bad.
> >
> > What's up with that?
> >  Aaron
> EV's arn't "bad" they just arn't the solution that people would like
> them to be.. including me!
> >
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > If one believes in the statistics put forth by the US Department of
> > Transportation, the average American drives less than 40 miles a day.
> And a large fraction of the people in the US live in CITIES.. where they
> don't need transportation.. It's another case where you use selective
> statistics to bolster a "use case".
> >
> > That, together with the fact that most American households have more
> > that one car, means that the range of the present generation of EVs
> > meets the needs of most consumers (the mass market).
> If they did, the sales of EV's would be "thru the roof" for all the
> obvious reasons.
> >
> > Your driving situation clearly puts you well outside of the norm.
> I bet, if you take the "average driver" based on the one that drives
> the average number of miles, instead of picking the ones that live
> in densely populated areas, the number changes dramatically.
> Sure.. if you pick "individuals" and not "miles" you can make
> the statistics look good.. what you want to do is get the
> maximum number of miles replaced by EV's if you want to impact
> polution.
> Cities already have solutions in place, in the form of mass transit.
> So.. looking at it from that point of view, you are displacing potential
> transit riders by producing EV's! :-) There is a lose/lose solution!..
> The bus is already running up and down your street, spewing diesel
> fumes.. and it's empty, 'cus the potential riders are in their EV's!
> Or more likely at the Starbucks, waiting for their EV to charge!
> :-)
> >
> > In other words, you represent a niche market that the present day EV
> > (Tesla excluded) is not designed to meet.
> And the Tesla excludes itself because it's like buying a Lamborghini.. the
> price is a "novelty item" not a "transportation solution".
> >
> > For most Americans those windmills exist only in their minds and remain
> > there simply because of normal resistance to change.
> I don't think so.. and the sales figures back that up.
> The existing EV fleet is a "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist.
> >
> > Gary M
> As an exmple.. let's take the 4th largest city in the US. Houston..
> The climate is such that AC is necessary for most of the year. In
> the summer it's too hot to drive a car without AC. And for a good
> part of the winter, you can't see out the windows because of the
> condensation on them without AC.
> The area inside the "inner" loop freeway is over 100 square miles.
> The area inside the "outer" loop is  480 sqare miles.
> Bedroom communities extend to the north, south and west
> about another 20-50 miles.
> Solve their commuter problem and you will have really
> succeeded.
> It's a perfect application.. power is relatively cheap,
> The terrain is pretty flat.
> And in doing so you will have put a dent in the fuel
> consumption/polution problem.
> Solving the problem for folks who don't burn any fuel
> in the first place isn't doing anything "useful".
> Displacing one "subcompact" car in favor of an EV isn't
> a big help.
> The argument that most families have 2 cars just prooves
> that the EV isn't what it needs to be, yet. Now.. I
> admit.. it's a help... but that family is going to
> do their "serious fuel consumption" not in the
> EV, but in the ICE.
> If I could buy a Gizmo that was a single place
> vehicle with the needed range, I'd do it.. I've got
> a car in the driveway right now that I'd trade in.
> But.. I can't get one.. I keep looking.. and will
> keep looking.. because I want the technology to
> work..
> It's curious that the hybrid, which should be
> the "worst of both worlds" is actually winning
> in the market place. The hybrid hauls around a
> battery system, a generator and an ICE.. and a
> fuel tank.. and get's some of the best mileage
> figures going.
> Cherry picking statistics doesn't help either..
> because when a credible person like Zehner publishes an
> article.. if the immediate response is "rebut at any
> cost" including "the truth".. there is something
> fishy going on. When Zehner has "nothing to say"
> because your statistics are actually BETTER than
> the competition.. then you have achived something really
> groundbreaking.
> I'm glad to see Zehners report.. and I'm glad it was
> brought up here. Even if it was in the context of
> "rebut at any cost".
> I missed the original broadcast.. so I was glad to hear
> about it.. and go listen to what he had to say. We should
> all be open to that discussion.
> Steve
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