[Oeva-list] Hot on: [SEVA] Another Slam Article on Electric Casrs

PUSA411 pusa411 at gmail.com
Wed Dec 17 01:50:06 PST 2014


This has been the hot topic on the SEVA mail..
My wife is getting over 5.3 mi/Kw driving the daughter 8.2 mi to school each day, 3.8 mi are 60+mph on each leg
she is 36% more efficient than I..  :')~   damn lead foot.

Here is link to the pdf way down the page:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf+html




Thanks all y'all,

Daniel "Bubba" Conway
Chief Opportunity Officer
Premium-USA.com
a Xingusa Corp





============ Forwarded message ============
>From : Tracy Farwell<farwellt at msn.com>
To : <SEVA_list at googlegroups.com>
Date : Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:30:51 -0800
Subject : Re: [SEVA] Another Slam Article on Electric Casrs
============ Forwarded message ============

LIke it Jay !

You can drive an EV at least 3.5mi/kWh, so its 3.5mi/kWh x the 8kWh it takes to produce a gallon of gasoline, = 28 electric miles on the same energy the refinery needs for a gallon produced.  National average for passenger cars is about 22 mpg.  This is why Elon Musk says, for cars, we don't need refineries at all.  EVs use less grid energy per mile.


Here's a link offering a well-to-tank analysis of energy needed to deliver that gallon.    http://www.better-energy-llc.com/well-tank-energy-efficiencies-gasoline-diesel/

On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:03 PM, 'Jay Donnaway' via SEVA Email List wrote:

Where did anyone get the idea that gasoline is refined far away?  Oil is exported and carried across oceans, not gasoline, and refineries are located closer to the point of consumption.  "Our" gasoline is refined in Bellingham (yes, most all brands come from the same few local refineries, they trade with each other constantly), with all the attendant local emissions involved, and the 8 kWh it takes to refine a gallon of gasoline comes off of the local power grid.  So, depending on one's viewpoint, either we have super-clean hydroelectric-produced gasoline, or the refineries are increasing local demand for power such that we have coal plants in Centralia and Colstrip fouling our air and making our EVs dirtier to drive.  
 
 Either way, a gas car uses more electricity from the Western Washington electric grid than an EV does.  (assuming 24 mpg avg and 8 kWh/gal, or 3 miles/kWh for a gasser, when most of our EVs do better than 3 miles/kWh.  MyEV averages 4 miles/kWh on an annual basis, or the electric consumption equivalent of a 32 mpg car, even though it's rated at 112 MPGe.
 
 SO, in order for my EV to produce as much pollution as a gas car in Washington, given the 19,000 electric miles per year that I'm driving, I'd have to consume all that electricity (4750 kWh) AND THEN put a torch to 792 gallons of gasoline just for fun. 
 
 Hmm, that would be a practical, illustrative, and scientific demonstration indeed.  Anybody got connections to Bill Nye or the MythBusters?  I happen to have a line on 15 old fuel drums...
   
 
 Jay Donnaway
 
 
  
 
  
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Randy Richmond <righthandeng at gmail.com>
 To: SEVA_list <SEVA_list at googlegroups.com>
 Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 4:32 pm
 Subject: Re: [SEVA] Another Slam Article on Electric Casrs
 
   It would be interesting to evaluate the actual deployed EVs state-by-state in the USA against the quality of electricity generated in their respective states. I'm sure that with WA's largely hydro generated electricity, we are already doing much better than ICE vehicles in this state.
  
 I've not looked at the original study documents yet. Did they include source info with which we ordinary mortals can check their calculations? It seems intuitive to me that a central generating plant has to be more efficient than a bunch of individual ICE. And if gasoline is that much cleaner than coal, why don't they use it to power electrical generation plants?
  
 -Randy R
 
 
 On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Paul& Vanessa Kahle <kahle at wolfenet.com> wrote:  Having read the actual research paper, I'm really impressed by all this.  The link to the actual paper is
 
 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf+html
 
 The title of the actual paper is:
 
 Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional and alternative light-duty transportation in the United States
 
 The abstract from the paper reads:
 
 Commonly considered strategies for reducing the environmental impact of light-duty transportation include using alternative fuels and improving vehicle fuel economy. We evaluate the air quality related human health impacts of 10 such options, including the use of liquid biofuels, diesel, and compressed natural gas (CNG) in internal combustion engines; the use of electricity from a range of conventional and renewable sources to power electric vehicles (EVs); and the use of hybrid EV technology. Our approach combines spatially, temporally, and chemically detailed life cycle emission inventories; comprehensive, fine-scale state-of-the-science chemical transport modeling; and exposure, concentration–response, and economic health impact modeling for ozone (O3) and fine particulate matter (PM2.5). We find that powering vehicles with corn ethanol or with coal-based or “grid average” electricity increases monetized environmental health impacts by 80% or more relative to using conventional gasoline. Conversely, EVs powered by low emitting electricity from natural gas, wind, water, or solar power reduce environmental health impacts by 50% or more. Consideration of potential climate change impacts alongside the human health outcomes described here further reinforces the environmental preferability of EVs powered by low-emitting electricity relative to gasoline vehicles.
 
 The interesting thing about this study is that is does not just concentrate on Green House Gas emissions, it includes everything that impacts human health including particulates and ozone production.  The main idea here is that anything that increases the burning of coal is really bad for human health.  So EVs driving around on coal generated electricity may not increase green house gases that much over gasoline, but they would really increase other bad things, and those increases would be local, not far away in the middle east where gasoline is pumped and processed.  Whereas, electricity produced from Wind/Water/Solar (WWS) is the best possible outcome for human health even taking into account the impacts of battery production.
  
 They even go so far as to enumerate deaths and costs.
 
 According to their figures, a gallon of gas burned in a typical ICE produces $.53 in air quality damage and $.43 in climate change damage (total $.96/gal)  An equivalent amount of energy in a coal powered EV produces almost $2.50 in damage.  But the WWS powered EV is close to $.10 (they didn't give an exact figrure) which is the best outcome in the study by far.
  
 Similarly, they come flat out and say gasoline technology air pollution is directly responsible for over 900 deaths per year vs over 3000 (projected) for coal powered EVs and under 100 for the WWS EV (projected).
  
 That's pretty sobering stuff.
  
 Anyone want to build a coal terminal in Washington State now?
 
 ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: Konrad Roeder 
 To: SEVA_list at googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 8:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [SEVA] Another Slam Article on Electric Casrs
 
 
   Well, they've given me another reason why coal, tar sands, and shale need to be eliminated ASAP,  (Not EV's).
 
 K
 
 
 On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 8:45 AM, James (Jack) Herndon <jeh at w-link.net> wrote:
 All-electric Cars May Be Worse for Environment
 Associated Press, Seth Borenstein
 
 People who own all-electric cars where coal generates the power may think they are helping the environment. But, a new study finds their vehicles actually make the air dirtier, worsening global warming.
 Ethanol isn't so green, either. "It's kind of hard to beat gasoline" for public and environmental health, said study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the Univ. of Minnesota [1] "A lot of the technologies that we think of as being clean... are not better than gasoline." The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than gas, because of the pollution made in generating the electricity, according to the study that is published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) [2].
 
 They also are significantly worse at heat-trapping carbon dioxide that worsens global warming, it found. The study examines environmental costs for cars' entire life cycle, including where power comes from and the environmental effects of building batteries. "Unfortunately, when a wire is connected to an electric vehicle at one end and a coal-fired power plant at the other end, the environmental consequences are worse than driving a normal gasoline-powered car," said Ken Caldeira of the Carnegie Institution for Science, who wasn't part of the study but praised it. The states with the highest percentage of electricity coming from coal, according to the Department of Energy, are West Virginia, Wyoming, Ohio, North Dakota and Illinois.
 
 Still, there's something to be said for the idea of helping foster a cleaner technology that will be better once it is connected to a cleaner grid, said study co-author Jason Hill, another Univ. of Minnesota engineering professor. The study finds all-electric vehicles cause 86 percent more deaths from air pollution than do cars powered by regular gasoline. Coal produces 39 percent of the country's electricity, according to the Department of Energy.
 
 But if the power supply comes from natural gas, the all-electric car produces half as many air pollution health problems as gas-powered cars do. And if the power comes from wind, water or wave energy, it produces about one-quarter of the air pollution deaths. Hybrids and diesel engines are cleaner than gas, causing fewer air pollution deaths and spewing less heat-trapping gas. But ethanol isn't, with 80 percent more air pollution mortality, according to the study.
 
 "If we're using ethanol for environmental benefits, for air quality and climate change, we're going down the wrong path," Hill said.
 
 Source URL :http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2014/12/all-electric-cars-may-be-worseenvironment?type=cta
 
 Links:
 [1] http://www1.umn.edu/twincities/index.html
 [2] http://pnas.org/
 
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 Best,
 Konrad
 
 Konrad Roeder
 425-644-8233
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